If I was asked to nominate the wisest aphorism of all time, Mark Twain’s “History doesn’t repeat, but it sure does rhyme” would definitely be one of my top two candidates.
On song, today Wall Street is replaying the 1930s, but to a slightly different meter. With the 80th anniversary of the Great Crash of 1929 falling on October 29th of this year, Wall Street is celebrating in characteristic style–with a euphoria-led bubble that now appears to be crashing up against economic reality.
Of course, our time is not a mirror image of that momentous period 80 years ago. It’s closer to a mirror image of the days roughly a year later, when the first two bear market rallies that followed the crash finally petered out, and the long slow grind of the Great Depression gradually took hold on the economy and the minds of America.
But in 1930, though on our reckoning the Depression had well and truly begun, the mindset that prevailed was very similar to today’s—that the worst of the crisis is behind us, and economic recovery is underway.
This mindset is on show at the wonderful blog News from 1930, which in honour of this week’s anniversary is publishing news summaries from the Wall Street Journal of 1929 as well as from 1930. Reading newspaper stories from 1930 is remarkable enough on a day by day basis, as comments made about the recovery that was then in place (and the return of the bull market) could easily have been lifted from today’s—or last week’s—newspapers. But to see these juxtaposed with the actual coverage of the Crash of 1929 is all the more startling.
The most obvious chord in the historical song is that very few people realise when they are participants in an event of historic proportions. Even though the Dow had never fallen by anything like what it did in the five days of the Great Crash, the belief that this would nonetheless turn out to be a rather ordinary event was the dominant perspective, as this excerpt from the Wall Street Journal’s Editorial for Saturday October 26th 1929 indicates:
“The market will find itself, for Wall Street does its own liquidation and always with a remarkable absence of anything like financial catastrophe. … Suggestions that the wiping out of paper profits will reduce the country’s real purchasing power seem rather far-fetched.”
It seems that only in retrospect was it realised that 1929 was a watershed in world history: few living at the time actually understood that—and none of them had their prognostications published by the Wall Street Journal.
One year later, though the far-fetched had become somewhat harder to dismiss, the general tenor of economic and business commentary was that the worst of the crisis was over, and that 1931 would be a bumper year for the market and the wider economy. This observation in a radio address by General Motors executive and Democratic Party National Committee Chair J. Raskob is indicative of business attitudes in 1930:
In closing, let me say that no country in the world, not even our own, was ever in as splendid position to go forward and enjoy a period of prosperity as our own country is today. Everything has been thoroughly deflated and business is now turning upward. The momentum is necessarily slow at first, but within three months … we will quickly leave depression behind.”. (WSJ Tuesday October 1930)
The second chord is that the causes and effects of momentous events can be misunderstood both at the time and in retrospect—which leads humanity to repeat its mistakes all over again. Reading the commentary in the 1930, it is clear that the government of the time was doing all it thought possible to prevent the Crash turning into an economic crisis, and it appeared to believe that it had been successful.
The statistics certainly imply that Hoover wasn’t sitting on his hands doing nothing as Wall Street burned, which is the modern mythology. Government debt was equivalent to 30 percent of GDP when the crisis began; just 3 years later it was 70 percent of GDP—and that was when the so-called “automatic stabilisers” were a lot smaller than they are today (because the government sector was much smaller back then).
Yet the view that dominates conventional economic thinking today is that the Depression was caused by a disengaged government and bad monetary policy—if only the Fed hadn’t tightened in 1930, everything would have been fine. In fact, if the Fed did tighten—and the evidence on that is mixed—it was because they, like today’s Fed, believed they had already done enough to avert catastrophe.
Bollocks to that: the problem in 1930 wasn’t the tightening of fiat money, but the preceding failure to constrain the private debt bubble that financed Wall Street’s speculative excess of the 1920s. Yet armed with the misguided belief that there wouldn’t have been a Great Depression had the Fed not tightened in 1930, the Fed of the 1980s-2007 ignored an even bigger bubble in private debt than its predecessor ignored in the 1920s.
By the time Ben Bernanke made his fawning paean to Milton Friedman at his 90th birthday—“Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You’re right, we did it. We’re very sorry. But thanks to you, we won’t do it again”—the Fed had already caused a far bigger crisis by ignoring private debt and the asset bubble it financed.
I’ll finish with my other favourite aphorism: Max Planck’s observation that “science progresses one funeral at a time”. It will take a lot of funerals before the economics profession abandons the follies that led it to describe the decade leading up to today’s crisis as “The Great Moderation”.









October 29th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Prof. Keen,
Thanks for this post.
I’m a Yank (I don’t say that proudly; the dimunitive of Yankee invokes a certain tawdriness), and all I see is bad news. Your voice and David Rosenberg’s are pretty much the voices of reason around here, but nobody can find either of you unless they know where to look.
You could probably do a lot of good here in the States, if only you could teach Mish how to harmonize his inconsistent thoughts, which would require him to look past his ideology and truly embrace some of the ideas he accepts as truth. Seriously, Mish can read you and correspond with you and not realize how his belief system fails when your models apply. He simply has no clue and can have no clue because he came so close to utter failure (multiple years of being out of work involuntarily!!!) that he HAS to unswervingly believe in everything he believes in, whether it is true or not.
The damage wrought by neoclassical economics goes far beyond your discipline and well into neoliberal thought.
Please. Help us help ourselves.
Thanks again.
October 29th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by greychampion, John Hacking. John Hacking said: Happy Anniversary Wall Street: If I was asked to nominate the wisest aphorism of all time, Mark Twain’s “Histor.. http://bit.ly/t1dFf [...]
October 29th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
[...] Happy Anniversary Wall Street (Keen) [...]
October 29th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Well said, as always.
Of possible interest to you and your readers
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-markets-fail.html
I always figure that anyone who reads and translates obscure greek and latin texts for fun is likely to have interesting things to say, and this weeks essay sings along with Steve’s tunes.
October 29th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
The tendency for history to replay is remarkable…However todays post has prompted a question about the Panic of ‘21 and whether that holds any lessons for policy makers. In a recent post on the Daily Reckoning Bill Bonner writes that early in the Presidency of Warren Harding,
“… the Panic of 1921 was taking the unemployment rate from 4% to nearly 12%. GDP fell 17%. Then, as now, the president’s subordinates urged him to intervene. Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover wanted to meddle – as he would 10 years later. But Harding resisted. No bailouts. No stimulus. No monetary policy. No fiscal policy. Harding had a better approach; he cut government spending and went out to play poker. “
“Harding did the very opposite of what Keynes recommended. Instead of increasing government spending, he reduced it. He cut the budget almost in half. He slashed taxes too…and cut the national debt by a third. Japan at the time struggled with the same downturn. But it had no Harding at the helm. Instead, its masters prefigured Keynes, trying to stay the correction using price controls and other interventions.
The result was a long-drawn-out affair that lasted until 1927 and ended in a bank crisis. In America, meanwhile, by 1922 unemployment was back down to 6.7%. By 1923 it was down further – to 2.4%.
This lesson was entirely lost on the world’s economists. “
So writes Bill Bonner. In fact I recently viewed a presentation from the Ludwig Von Mises Institute’s website that refers to the Panic of 21 and outline Keynesian theorists who have written of it, noted the anomaly and ignored it because it does not sit with their view of how an economy is managed.
Was Harding’s inaction a vindication of a hands off approach? Does this contain a lesson for policy makers? Unfortunately I cannot find the link to the presentation although I have downloaded it. No one ignores history’s lessons they just view them through a particular paradigm…
October 29th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
How do you comment that the stock market made the bottom in 1932 when the ratio of debt to GDP made an all time high for that period. Market wen’t up from then on and the debt to GDP went down. Isn’t that the same as today? The stock market made the bottom in March as the ratio of debt to GDP made its high? The market will go up and the debt to GDP down.
?
October 29th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Here is an recent slide show of the top 20 debtor nations. I would like to know where the corresponding creditor nations are to balance these amounts!
http://www.cnbc.com/id/30308959?slide=1
October 29th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
[...] Happy Anniversary Wall Street (Keen) [...]
October 29th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
This entry gives the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services. I’m not sure it is a comprehensive list of US debt as much of the US’s external debt is denominated in US dollars. US debt is around 370% of GDP excluding unfunded liabilities for Medicare and Pensions.
October 29th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Debt actually fell from 1929 to 1933 jack25son,
The ratio rose because nominal GDP fell much faster than debt rose.
October 29th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
US GDP up 3.5%
October 30th, 2009 at 1:11 am
This is an excellent post. I’ll use it in my Intermediate Macro class to complement Mankiw’s ISLM-based discussion of the Great Depression. Your point about the 1920s speculative bubble is especially overlooked by the mainstream of our profession today.
One point: The optimism of many people in the market at the time was not unjustified. (On Saturday, Oct. 31, the WSJ even suggested that the recovery may set in by Christmas.) The reason was that there was a similar crash and panic that set in in 1920. The government’s response to that correction could best be described as “anti-Hoover,” and it is a fascinating story. Please see this article by Thomas Woods just published in the Intercollegiate Review: http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=1319&theme=home&loc=b.
October 30th, 2009 at 1:35 am
[...] Happy Anniversary Wall Street (Keen) [...]
October 30th, 2009 at 2:20 am
Here are a few things that maybe you haven’t heard:
The latest “health care reform package” has a bailout clause in it. It allows states to stay out of this up until 2014.
The TARP system is set up w/no conditions or oversight whatsoever. Also, smaller firms are being asked to pay into a fund to gurantee that the top ones (who are too big to fail) never go bankrupt.
The States will never leave Iraq or Afghanistan because the “standards of progress” are constantly being changed. Can you name any other country in the world that needs almost 10 years for their national security force to be “properly trained.”? In any major Western country, the commanders would have been sacked already. But these rules don’t apply.
Obama has given insurance and drug companies gurantees that they won’t lose their profit. Yet, he continues to talk with a straight face about “reform is almost here.” Pelosi and Reid say we have the votes to pass this. Then we don’t. Now we do.
Congress says they’ll pass additional unemployment benefits. But they don’t say that it’s not the same amount nationwide. It’s only the highest amount to the states with the highest rate. Yet, the “official” govt. rate is only telling you half of the true rate.
Obama’s “bonus czar” is an ex-Goldman Sachs person with no trading experience. He says he’ll cut bonuses. But he’s also raising base pay. The CEO’s also have their stock options and various other perks.
The BBC is talking about the U.S. economy growing 3.5%. How is that possible with the current private and national debt levels?
If Obama’s “health care reform” passes, the insurance firms are going to raise premiums by 200%. Yet there’s no “insurance czar” to regulate this. State insurance commissioners are just figureheads.
October 30th, 2009 at 2:28 am
[...] Happy Anniversary Wall Street (Keen) [...]
October 30th, 2009 at 4:03 am
Hi Steve,
Where are you getting the time series for household and business debt prior to WW2?
October 30th, 2009 at 5:47 am
Hi Steve,
A suggestion. If Obama sacks Bernanke and Geithner and wants you to take over, don’t do it. It’s not worth it.
October 30th, 2009 at 6:31 am
I can understand the comparison with 1929, but there is another significant difference. We are currently coming up against physical and environmental constraints that are not negotiable. Even if it were possible to continue increasing the GNP by inflating the currency, it is not possible to create energy in the same way, or to re-create a livable climate without a significant decrease in energy consumption (and hence GNP)… alternative energy supplies notwithstanding!
October 30th, 2009 at 6:43 am
From the US Census–annual data that was originally compiled by Gerard Minack at Morgan Stanley. The Census reports are available online now (in scanned PDF format) and the data was gathered from there.
October 30th, 2009 at 6:44 am
Steve, a quick question for you.
Your circuit model suggests that the credit economy paradigm is mathematically sustainable based on a ‘revolving fund’. Leaving aside the implications of fiat money, demographics, cash etc for the moment, what would your model predict about interest rates in the scenario of 0% growth?
Would they be 0, or would they be some +ve number due to velocity?
What does your model say about velocity in the above scenario? How are velocity and interest rates related in the above scenario?
Can velocity compensate for higher interest rates and vice versa?
Any thoughts (from anyone) much appreciated!
October 30th, 2009 at 6:44 am
Thanks westlch; I’ll check out that link too.
October 30th, 2009 at 7:04 am
Ahh, thanks. If by chance you have a link handy, then I would love to grab this data. I’ll do some googling on my own. The Statistical Abstract is not only a huge pdf with 18 sections, but is not searchable.
October 30th, 2009 at 7:40 am
Listening online to SBS Radio News. Geithner’s talking about the “great new recovery.” “Our borrowing from other countries has substantially declined.” Oh really? Prove it.
October 30th, 2009 at 9:16 am
It’s at http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/data/Debt_to_GDP.xls.
October 30th, 2009 at 9:24 am
The opinion that:
“There is no financial crisis so deep that cannot be dealt with by public spending”
has been validated – at least for now.
http://e1.newcastle.edu.au/coffee/pubs/wp/2008/08-10.pdf
“WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. economy grew in the third quarter for the first time in more than a year as government stimulus helped lift consumer spending and home building, fueling an unexpectedly strong advance.”
“As it turned out, growth was fairly broad-based with solid gains in consumer spending, exports and home construction.”
“But it was also driven by emergency government programs like the popular “cash for clunkers” incentive for new auto purchases and an $8,000 tax credit for first-time home buyers.”
“Stripping out auto output, the economy would have expanded at only a 1.9 percent rate in the third quarter.
In the absence of government support, there are fears the brisk growth pace will not extend into coming quarters, with rampant unemployment also inflicting damage.
‘The economy is entirely dependent on federal deficit spending at the moment. But the stimulus will not fade right away … that means we can rely on solid growth continuing through the first quarter of next year,’ said Chris Low, chief economist at FTN Financial in New York.
‘Once the government steps aside, growth is likely to fall back to a 1 to 2 percent rate of growth.’ ”
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Economy/idUSTRE59S1EF20091029
Whether this is sustainable in the long run without side effects – we need to wait and see a few years more. I believe it might be sustainable but with serious side effects – we will live in a completly different environment where government spending dominates private spending.
This is our very own way to China – we may like it or hate it but we are getting there.
October 30th, 2009 at 9:58 am
“Whether this is sustainable in the long run without side effects – we need to wait and see a few years more. I believe it might be sustainable but with serious side effects – we will live in a completly different environment where government spending dominates private spending.”
Indeed. It depends what other nations are doing.
It can’t go on forever. Government deficit spending can’t prevent a drop in real output due to demographics or peak oil or say, the death of capitalism and the consumer economy paradigm, any more than private sector spending can.
THis will eventually become clear and leave us with the option of full socialism or negative nominal interest rates. I hope we chose a sensible mix of the two.
October 30th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Thanks for the spreadsheet!
October 30th, 2009 at 10:12 am
A somewhat different take on the US GDP numbers. They don’t make sense. KD believes they are a crock for the reasons below.
ak, we ARE living in a completely different environment. Govt already IS the economy. Let’s hope we don’t make it all the way to China’s autocratic statist tyranny.
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1550-GDP-Is…..-Better-Than-Expected.html
“Looking inside the data, the “big change” in private domestic investment is all residential fixed – up 23.4%. I don’t believe it. I’ve been scouring the homebuilder earnings releases and data, and I don’t see the numbers that support this. An improvement over the ditch-diving of the last many quarters, yes – but a 23.4% increase, a swing of fifty percent from Q2-Q3? Oh hell no. Where is it? It’s not in Home Depot’s or Lowe’s quarterly results, it’s not in the homebuilders, and I can’t find it in the suppliers (lumber companies, etc) either. This sort of move would result in monstrous top-line revenue increases reported by firms in this sector and that simply has not happened.”
October 30th, 2009 at 10:28 am
ak@25
“This is our very own way to China – we may like it or hate it but we are getting there.”
I’m not sure we are on our way to China but they were here and they dug us out of trouble. The Chinese were digging everywhere in NSW to find gold during the depression. In his keynote address at the 5th International Acid Sulfate Soils Conference, Professor Bruce Thom, at that time serving as the Chairman of Coastal Council of NSW, says, “Locally, gold found seeping out onto beaches and concentrated in heavy mineral seams was mined and excavated using Chinese labourers such as at the famous Macauleys Lead south of Evans Head. Further digging took place on the floodplains to assist in drainage and extend farming from levee sites into the backswamps.”
With gold price going thru the roof, we can try the same trick again.
October 30th, 2009 at 11:43 am
soho44,
Its a sad sight in the US at the moment (in fact since the mid 1970s).
The new administration continues the policies of the old one with the exception of some eloquent and soothing words. The only difference between Obama and Bush is that Obama speaks in complete sentences.
The US is the only country in the Western industrialized world without a public health care system, and it shows. Its a real crime. Neither does the US have a public subsidy scheme like Australia’s PBS to ensure equitable access to pharmaceuticals.
This is what happens when private tyrannies essentially run the state and the economy. The US is a business-run society to an unusual extent. Given that the US is the richest country in the history of the world, it could easily offer its people everything that citizens get in Scandinavia and Western Europe. Typically, state policy is designed to protect the rich and smash the rest.
October 30th, 2009 at 11:46 am
ak said
““There is no financial crisis so deep that cannot be dealt with by public spending”
has been validated – at least for now.”
…
“This is our very own way to China – we may like it or hate it but we are getting there.”
I posted in a previous post the following on Wealth Disparity in the US http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/income-inequality-is-at-a_n_259516.html. You will notice in that article that the gap between the elite and the masses grew in the 1920s and then came back down during the 1930s. You will also see that the gap has again been growing since 1972. Coincidently this was when Nixon took the US off the gold standard.
Like Rudd you are un-apologetic about money printing. You are Ok about giving even more power to the elite turning the masses into debt slaves. You think it’s Ok to have growth and low unemployment at all costs even if that means keeping the banksters employed and widening the gap between the super rich and the rest of us. And you will of course say that I am putting words into your mouth – please treat your readers with more respect.
Money printing will ensure that more and more people will be turned into debt slaves and that those that advocate it are on the take – ie. owns inflated assets or are on the government teat. When the referee (government) has been bought then the outcome of the game is assured. If the referee is asleep then the players misbehave. In either case the referee is accountable. Only the unbelievably naive would think that the distribution of printed money will be to the betterment of society. If you really believe in money printing then you are firmy under the spell of likes of Larry Summers and the Banksters in general.
October 30th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Prof Keen
Thank you for your posts. I find your commentary very interesting.
In keeping with your current theme (parallels between today and 1930), is there any economic data in 1930 which corresponds to the last nights report(ie: +3.5% GPD growth and continuing claims down c15% from peak). Are we still seeing history repeating itself (or rhyming) or is last nights data enough to argue a disconnect between 1930 and today?
Keep up the good work.
October 30th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
This site is an invaluable resource and voice of concern. However from time to time I think we should inject some small element of humour into our posts . In that vein I am proposing that we come up with a list of contrarian events – events that have elements of truth but that the mainstream media believes will not, or could not, come true. Of course as this is a contrarian site this would mean turning to orthodoxy but bear with me and go with the flow. If you want to provide a technical explanation of why these events can or can’t happen then you have taken this post WAY too seriously. My top 5 contrarian events and rationale
1.The next interest rate increase will be 50 basis points.
Our Governator of the Reserve Bank has never seen a ‘disease’ where he doesn’t feel that extra medicine won’t cure it. (If taking one tablet makes you feel a bit better – how much better would you feel if you took 5!!)
2.The next banking crises will be in ……. Australia
We usually punch above our weight but have missed out in this battle. But pride comes before a fall so I thought I would have a quick look at our banks and make a call. My first port of call was Macquarie Bank and one look there and I didn’t go any further (and sold my shares as well!). They pay so little in tax that I bet even the tax office doesn’t understand what they do or how they do it. Their assets include $40 billion of rubbish as far as I could see although someone might be able to explain it.
The winner is Macquarie and it will be a monster (mash)
3.A wayne swan event becomes even more well known than a ‘black swan’ one
This will come about when the Treasurer (humming ‘We are the champions’) is driving along the street when he is suddenly sideswiped by a truck (make – possibly ‘inflation’ but could be ‘deflation’.) As he slowly recovers a voice from the backseat (the Governator of the Reserve Bank) chirpily says’ See – I told you I could stop that truck’). And everyone says – ‘mate you’ve been wayne swaned!.
4.The next Treasurer … Julia Gillard.
As Wayne slowly recovers there has to be a cabinet reshuffle and she needs a heavy weight domestic department to make sure she becomes the next Prime Minister.
Ask not for whom the ‘guillardtine’ tolls – it tolls for thee(apologies to J Dunne)
5.House prices continue to go up, the stock market crashes by Jan 2010, the US $ improves and gold is seen as the bubble it always was.
No doubt the gold bugs are already sharpening their claws and who really knows. Of course governments have got used to spending money so why would the party stop now. The stock market crashes, everyone goes into US $ – chasing ‘safety’ and governments spend another few trillion. In Australia any downturn in housing starts will see even bigger housing grants so prices continue to rise. And then we get a stock market recovery and the bubble gets bigger! But who will spoil the party , pop the bubble and not get a government handout. Hang on… stop… – this is WAY too serious.
October 30th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
An interesting trend is happening. Many activist groups are now using several ideas that I proposed for a long time. But nobody ever responded. Now they’re using these. And some might get some book deals or a talk show out of them.
Should I ring up my solicitor
?
October 30th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Just heard on ABC from a BHP spokesperson that the Chinese have finished restocking their inventory. No more resource demand for Australia left
Australia let the fun and games begin !!!!
October 30th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Need a safe way to blow off your global economic meltdown stress? Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpTFkMIJm88
October 30th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
This is a surprise;
http://www.qbr.com.au/news/articleid/60712.aspx
“New home sales fall 4.5 pc in September
October 30, 2009
A waning first home buyers grant has seen a 4.5 percent drop in the number of new home sales in September, according to the Housing Industry Association (HIA).
The latest survey of Australia’s largest builders shows the number of detached house sales fell by 4.3 percent nationally in September, but managed a 4 percent gain for the September quarter.
Queensland suffered a less dramatic fall of 1.1 percent over the month.
The number of apartment sales was down by 6.5 percent in September but up by 4 percent for the quarter due mainly to a burst of sales in August.
HIA Chief Economist Harley Dales says industry saw a surge of sales from first time home buyers in August ahead of the step-down in the first home buyers grant.”
**********************************************
More surprises. I guess consumers are rebelling against Rudd’s propaganda seeing that more debt is not so flash afterall. Watch for more Gerry Harvey interviews extolling the virtues of continued Govt cash handouts and stimulous as Xmas approaches.;
http://www.smh.com.au/business/borrowing-levels-drop-despite-low-rates-20091030-houy.html
Borrowing levels drop despite low rates
CHRIS ZAPPONE
October 30, 2009 – 1:00PM .
The amount borrowed by consumers and businesses dropped in September for only the second time since 1992 – despite low interest rates and renewed confidence in the economy.
Total private credit, measured by the Reserve Bank, dropped by 0.2 per cent in September, following a 0.2 per cent gain in August, as lending to businesses and consumers fell. The drop surprised analysts who expected a 0.2 per cent increase in the month.
October 30th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Thought this might be of interest. The penny must drop soon…..
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/GDP-US-economy-government-debt-pd20091030-XARNZ?OpenDocument&src=kgb
October 30th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Another sobering article, thanks Steve.
And speaking of aphorisms, here’s one of mine that you might soon find handy:
“It’s all been downhill since the wheel”
..tish boom!
October 30th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
I think over the coming months we are going to hear in greater frequency the word “surprised” appear in our main stream economists vernacular.
For example, a neo classical economist said he was “surprised” when being told that a single person on $35,000 a year after tax would have no disposable income if they had to service a mortgage of $350,000 at 10%.
October 30th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Here is another quote “Experience keeps a dear school but fools will learn in no other” – Benjamin Franklin.
The Great Depression is too far in the past to be part of the current neoclassicals’ experience but some claim to be “experts” of this and they should all know history.
We appear to be sailing in a ship of fools.
October 30th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
mfo,
Dont worry about the the capacity to pay.
The Banks, with their new found freedom due to the waiving of the consumer credit code, just gave your borrower a $50,000 credit card.
This should cover them for the next 12-24 months until they turn the property over at a minimum 200% profit.
New found freedom to run up massive debt….priceless!
October 30th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
I’ll post a bit on that in the next Debtwatch bb,
There were certainly occasions where unemployment fell on its way towards a 25% peak in the USA.
Things are somewhat different this time too though–the scale of government stimulus this time does dwarf what Hoover did in the 1930s, even though he did far more than myth would have us believe.
October 30th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
hi speckie/all
interesting thoughts on the 1920’s
have a link for you and anyone thats interested in a bit of background on the 1920’s in the US. i totally disagree with the sanguine conclusions but its a good piece to get ones toes wet
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/smiley.1920s.final
October 30th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Steve,
How did the US economy manage to build a private debt bubble of 350%/GDP yet Australia’s economy is straining under 170%/GDP? I don’t see how the AU economy is all that different from the US.
October 30th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Thanks Mahaish appreciate the link
October 30th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Hi Onevoice right on!
One famous bank researcher thinks Macquarie balance sheet is like wrestling in the dark with a ghost.
You just cannot get any real idea of their debt levels with their special vehicles partnerships.
Shorting Macqaurie Bank is dangerous not because of the terrible fundamentals high debt levels,because of the massive political influence Bob Carr,Max Wilton and other political ghosts.
We have seen the bail out by the government AAA rating taxpayers capital to raise cash,Macquarie Bank just been another grap insolvent company if not for us sucker taxpayers.
If we have another financial meltdown in a election year and more taxpayer funds are given to Macquarie Bank, I strongly believe the Rudd government will loss the next election.
I have no financial interest in Macquarie Bank and think all political parties are the same!
I wait with pleasure for the usual smug comments from Macquarie worshippers!
October 30th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
Mahaish
A lecture by Thomas Woods of the Mises Institute appears on you tube at the link below on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czcUmnsprQI
October 30th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Phillip, perhaps the difference between US and oz debt totals is that in the US there has been much horizontal re-lending of bank credit (i.e. derivatives, extra intermediaries etc), and not so much in Oz.
I think the main thing is to look at the total debt versus the total money supply, as well as against GDP.
October 30th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Ok, what does the ratio of private debt to monetary aggregates show?