I first heard the best joke about economics in 1975. The teller was the nuclear physicist (and nuclear power advocate) Sir Phillip Baxter, and he told it in answer to a question I had asked at a public forum.
The joke is:
A physicist, a chemist and an economist are shipwrecked on a desert isle, along with a container full of cans of baked beans.
The chemist says that if they can start a fire, he can calculate the temperature at which a can will explode.
The physicist says that she can work out the trajectory of the baked beans after the explosion, so that they can gather the baked beans and eat them.
The economist looks at them in disdain, and finally says Guys, you’re going about it the hard way. Let’s assume we have a can opener.
The can opener that was the centrepiece of today’s budget was the assumption that the Down Under version of the Global Financial Crisis will end in 2011-12, and that after it, the economy will experience above-trend growth of 4.5 percent a year for at least two years. Armed with this can opener, The Treasury can easily get out of the deficit jam it is now in: corporate tax revenues will grow by a quarter, unemployment will fall 1% a year from its 8.5% peak, and the budget can eke its way back to surplus by 2016.
This is a modified version of the can opener that Treasury has been using for the last decade, where its forecasts for the future were based simply on the assumption that the economy will always return to 3 percent growth after any short term disturbance. Normally they assume that the short term disturbance only lasts for the current year, and that the long run trend will reassert itself the following year.
The Treasury’s one concession to reality in this Budget was to add an additional year where growth was expected to be below average–so rather than forecasting 3% growth in 2010-11 as it would normally do, it assumed growth of 2.5% for that year. But it then assumed growth of 4.5% for the next two years.

Overall, Treasury is assuming that the deepest global recession since the Great Depression (its words) will reduce growth over a 4 year period by a mere 0.25 percent per annum.
Isn’t it marvellous what you can do with a can opener?
Reality is rather harder to cope with. Though I’ve had many years to get used to this, I still find it bizarre to read statements like the worst global recession since the Great Depression and see this juxtaposed with expectations of a shorter, shallower recession than that of the 1990s.
At least there’s a sense of give us a break, what else could we do? to the way Treasury attempts to justify its assumptions in this document:
The approach is also in line with that taken in budgets in the early 1990s when above-trend rates of growth were assumed as the economy recovered from recession.
Other countries are also assuming above trend growth in their forward estimates as their economies are expected to recover. The US, UK, New Zealand and Sweden are all adopting such an approach. (Budget Overview page 29)
That’s cold comfort to the rest of us however–all it really means is that most OECD Treasuries are hoping that the crisis just blows over, just as are our alleged economic managers.
And we are asked to trust a projection based on the experience of the 1990s, when this is the worst global recession since the Great Depression? Wouldn’t that mean that recent experience should be a misleading guide as to what to expect? Why not instead show us what happened back then?:
Oops. 4 years of falling output with the economy shrinking by 10 percent in 1930 alone? Even 1990 doesn’t look quite as good in the data as the Treasury describes it:
Then output fell by more than 1 percent in 1992, and though growth returned to trend levels after 3 years of below trend growth, it certainly didn’t bound up to 1.5 times the pre-recession average.
The Treasury, like the RBA, didn’t see this crisis coming–have a quick read of the 2008 Budget Overview and look for the word crisis; you’ll find it once in relation to housing. The Treasury’s prognoses on how long this recession might last, and how deep it will be, are no more than wishful thinking.
Unfortunately, guided by neoclassical economics, there’s little else that The Treasury can do: according to standard neoclassical theory, this crisis shouldn’t be happening. Only when they throw away the textbooks will they have any hope of understanding how the economy actually works.
Until that day, make sure your own can opener is working–and maybe even set aside a stock of baked beans.






May 13th, 2009 at 12:51 am
Like the can opener analogy. This budget was so predictable; betting on the extension of the FOHG was a sure thing.
I think Steve that some of your forcasts may need revising as I dont think even you anticipated the debpths to which politicians would push the envelope. My guess is that Rudd will borrow as much as lenders are willing to lend. Only when there’s an appreciable uptick in bond yields will the bubble finally burst in Oz. At which time it would be too late to do anythign constructive. I’m thinking mid to late next year.
May 13th, 2009 at 12:52 am
Steve, I was thinking along the same lines.
How can they trust anything that treasury predicts?
It’s not as if they’ve done a bang up job with their most recent forecast. They keep on revising them down!!
Can opener? Let’s just assume we have a boat!
May 13th, 2009 at 2:11 am
Steve,
Another good post but you have only told half the story. If you think the revenue numbers may be a bit shonky well have a look at expenses.
The analysis below is in nominal terms (looking at actual dollars not adjusting for inflation).
A scan through previous Budget papers shows that in the past 5 years Commonwealth government Expenses have grown by an average of more than 12% per annum. Yep that is 12% growth in actual dollars spent every year for the past five years. This has happened at a time of falling unemployment (Budget Paper no1 2003-04 onwards).
Last year the 2008-09 Expenses were forecast to grow by 4.2% but grew by 15.5%.
Over the next 3 years Expenses are forecast to grow by just 3% per annum. Such a low growth rate has NEVER been achieved since I began looking at the Budget data in 1980. This is supposedly going to happen at a time when unemployment is forecast to rise.
The average underestimation of Expense growth over the past five years has been 6.8% per year (Budget to Outcome).
I consider that it would be a pretty safe bet that Expenses will actually grow by around 10% per annum over the next 3 years. This will see expenses grow to over $431 billion in 2011-12.
There is a big upside risk on this number if unemployment reaches double digits and more self funded retirees join the pension queue – there is no downside risk.
Even if we get the revenue growth predicted by the “can-openers” at Treasury we will see a deficit for the year 2011-12 of more than $110 billion.
The Budget is broken.
There is no easy solution.
Either tax rates have to increase or big cutbacks to programs will have to be made (or both).
May 13th, 2009 at 7:07 am
Below is a quote from an article on FT.com entitled America’s triple A rating is at risk
By David Walker
“Recent research conducted for the Peterson Foundation shows that 90 per cent of Americans want the federal government to put its own financial house in order. It also shows that the public supports the creation of a fiscal commission by a two-to-one margin. Yet Washington still sleeps, and it is clear that we cannot count on politicians to make tough transformational changes on multiple fronts using the regular legislative process. We have to act before we face a much larger economic crisis. Let’s not wait until a credit rating downgrade. The time for Washington to wake up is now.”
Soon the social mood in America will force the government to slash spending, raise taxes and begin correcting the fiscal imbalance.
Thankfully government debt in Oz is nowhere near as bad as the US. I won’t get into the woeful state of private and foreign debt.
My hope is and remains that when the US wakes up, Australia will follow. Hopefully, the Oz government debt will not be totally out of control when that happens. The deposit guarantee scares the pants off me though. That could turn out to be the worst policy ever agreed to by an Australian government.
Full article
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5534bd04-3f27-11de-ae4f-00144feabdc0.html?ftcamp=rss&nclick_check=1
May 13th, 2009 at 8:13 am
Hi Guys,
I found this video while reading Kevin Depew at Minyanville.
Have a watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXlxBeAvsB8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.minyanville.com%2Farticles%2Fgold-dollar-merrill-bac-silver-government%2Findex%2Fa%2F22623&feature=player_embedded
May 13th, 2009 at 8:20 am
Steve,
(Thanks for welcoming me btw)
Great post stats watcher.
I was driving home yesterday, and noticed almost all the bus shelters modified with a wheelchair space including the big painted blue and white sign on the concrete. In a bus shelter? Now we should support people with ability problems, but that smacks of beaurocrats creating work for works sake.
The point is, linear growth becomes exponential when constrained by finite resource. Govt expenditure at 10+%, housing growth 10+%, but CPI at <3%. Even to a primary school student, this is unsustainable.
The Howard govt should have been much more aggressive against capital price growth of land, and the current govt should be preparing for 5-10 years of contraction.
I watched the ride up (we got out of property in 2002, shares in 2008) went way longer than I expected. The ride down is going to be very painful.
I really hope a politician with true leadership steps up to the plate.
May 13th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Steve,
Is it possible to reconcile your predictions and simulation regarding unemployment level with the views expressed by professor Bill Mitchell from CofFEE (Newcastle)?
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=2205#more-2205
If I’ve understood the blog entry correctly, he has expressed a view that a permanent budget deficit not covered by borrowing is good and the government should concentrate on full employment policy instead.
“Will our children be burdened by the debt? Don’t even worry about that nonsense.”
What if the government says one thing (“we are fiscal conservatives”) but covertly follows the ideas expressed by prof. Mitchell – goes into quantitative easing to finance social problems etc.
Is it possible not to speculate but to actually simulate this scenario using a viable model?
May 13th, 2009 at 10:18 am
I agree with Steve in that the assumptions and theoretical framework which underlay the treasury economic model are fundamentally flawed but unfortunately that is not the real problem here.
Treasury predictions made in the last few years have seriously failed to match reality, yet no one in the media really seems to have picked up on this. The problem is that our politco/cultural leaders are economically
illiterate. More disturbingly, so is our public.
BullturnedBear:
Recent research conducted for the Peterson Foundation shows that 90 per cent of Americans want the federal government to put its own financial house in order………
The problem isn’t our politicians, the problem is our public. Balanced budgets are like motherhood statements, no one is in disagreement. But a lot of the public actually baulks if balancing the budget actually involves a loss of benefit to themselves. Our public, who ultimately vote our politicians in, are schizophrenic; They want balanced budgets, lower taxes and increased benefits. Anyone who can synapse two neurons can see that this is impossible.
Politicians are acutely sensitive to public opinion, after all, their jobs depend on it. If the public want unsustainable policies the politicians will give it to them, because any politician who goes against public opinion gets voted out. You see, the system selects for people who best represent the public’s views.
Now as for deficit spending, suppose the gov plans to pay back the money over 25 years at an interest rate of 5%, for $1 that the government borrows they will have to pay $1.77 back. Swan’s 59 billion dollar deficit is really a $104 billion dollar obligation he has put onto the Australian public, that’s $45 Billion in interest payments. That’s a lot of hospitals, roads, infrastructure and welfare.
The public gets what the public deserves.
May 13th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Steve, as a physicist / engineer myself (familiar with the old joke) I have to say I laughed out loud as soon as I read the title of your latest post in my RSS reader
May 13th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Great comment by Stats Watcher.
May 13th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Hi Guys,
Very worrying about the can opener. Is it just me or the infrastructure projects seem ultra-expensive (eg in Adelaide we’re getting $61m to paint a bus lane through the city!).
Plus some of the initiatives on raising tax revenues are very poor, and are in fact more of a nuisance then a benefit. Increasing the preservation age by two years over an 8 year period is very pathetic policy.
And halving of concessional super contributions (which by the way was due to be indexed upwards by $5000 next FY) is hilarious. That’ll hurt those greedy rich!!!
If this is a “tough” and “painful” budget, then one shudders to think how weak the Henry Tax Review later this year is going to be. What’s the bet they haven’t even started it. Politician and leadership is an oxymoron.
Keep punching Steve.
May 13th, 2009 at 10:33 am
In terrms of the forecast estimates, I agree that the RBA doesn’t really have a clue what’s going on. I would expect the 8.5% unemployment rate to be hit much sooner than their current prediction, and I think we could be well into double-digit unemployment by late 2010.
Then of course there is the whole issue of how unemployment is defined and measured. Plenty of laid-off lawyers, IBs and management consultants of late – I don’t see them showing up to the local employment office and registering with the masses of “officially” unemployed. Then there’s the “contracting fringe” – which has already seen a downturn (esp. prof services such as IT etc) – many of whom now find themselves “underemployed”. These people don’t show up in the 8.5% core unemployment stat either.
I think the major shift from full-time to contract employment over recent years may serve to mask the full extent of unemployment – leading to a core unemployment statistic that dramatically under-reports the true situation.
Of course, it will all come out in the wash. Unemployment and under-employment, whether “official” or not, flows through to being unable to service mortgage repayments, forced sales, foreclosure and the like. I suspect we will see dramatically more of this as soon as late-2009.
May 13th, 2009 at 10:37 am
@horsome: Agree, some of the projects seem hugely expensive. I guess that’s what happens when you splash huge swaths of government money at problems that are best solved by lean private-sector players.
Another anecdote – I was recently in the offices of a recruitment company I know well and got to sit in on their weekly meeting. Short take: huge numbers of candidates out there, but very few jobs to place them in; many companies with official or unofficial hiring freezes in place at present. This was IT / digital media sector specifically, but I am sure the story is the same in other areas.
May 13th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Thanks Steve. It’s amazing what you see when you simply join the data points and block out the noise.
Thanks too Stats for your eagle eye review of how Budgets are fudged.
Treasury numbers are a crock,fabricated to please their masters and fool us.Sir Humphrey would be impressed with our lot.By 1Q2010 the wheels will have fallen off this Budget. We should all be keeping an eye on Bond rates around that time.
May 13th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Can anyone point me to a link where the government details how it’s going to fund all this deficit spending in the budget to get it back to surplus, given the unemployment and GDP drop that’s coming?
It didn’t really get detailed in the budget speech last night.
- Ernie.
May 13th, 2009 at 11:33 am
A very amusing anecdote!
Apropos the budget it seems obvious to me that it’s the stuff of fairyland and I agree wholeheartedly with Steve’s ongoing crusade to “rewrite” the discipline of economics.
However I am somewhat in awe of the magnitude of this task because the wider community (ie the voting public who don’t read this blog!) seems completely ignorant of serious flaws in the theory that drives contemporary economic policy or even how economic policy affects really their lives.
One only has to look at the fudging going on in the US with the “bank stress tests” and the predictions based across the globe about “V shaped” economic recovery to know that our Government and econocrats the world over are all holding on to that proverbial can opener very tightly.
But the conspiracy theorist in me suspects that the smart ones may actually know this. The problem is not just flawed economics, it’s the challenge of managing expectations in democracies.
Confidence cannot overcome the reality of too much debt but like almost every recession since the 30s it can bring about a stay of execution. The problem this time is that it’s hard to see how restarting the “debt and spend engine” could possible work.
And that’s the problem our political masters face.
How do they tell the truth and remain in office (let alone keep confidence in the economy sufficient to avoid a repeat of the 30s)?
I think the solution is probably what they’re doing; fill the void with our childrens’ taxes, make highly optimistic forecasts and revise them downward slowly.
That way everyone is grumpy and the process drags on and on but the change in status quo is managed over time to give those with the economic power in our society the best to retain it in future.
Unfortunately I suspect that the only real solution is the shock of an economic collapse of the order of the Great Depression felt directly by society before we can really find the will to reform how the global economy works. And that’s a very risky path.
Am I too much of a conspiracy theorist? More optimistic alternative ideas are most welcome
May 13th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Ernie,
you could always start by looking here:
http://www.budget.gov.au/
No worries …
May 13th, 2009 at 11:55 am
For those that missed the FRONTLINE special “Ten Trillion and Counting” last night on Cutting Edge, you can see it online at the follow URL:-
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tentrillion/view/
This was a very good documentary. It showed how irresponsible Bush was who just kept increasing the government deficit to a level which is now scary in anybody’s books. The reason it is scary is because the documentary states that at some point people will stop buying their bonds, which means they will no longer be able to borrow to finance their debt. What’s even more scary is that this appears to have already started happening:-
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25458154-5015025,00.html
boma – thanks for the reference.
We may be beginning to wittness the next panic. It amazes me that this story did not get more coverge as it is probably the single most important story I have seen so far.
Now, returning to our own budget, it looks like we are heading in the same direction, but with a time delay! God help us all!
May 13th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Thanks DrBob127 for the link.
Most of the budget forcasts seems to be on this page:
http://www.budget.gov.au/2008-09/content/myefo/html/part_4.htm
I am curios how well these “Automatic Stabilizers” they refer to, actually work.
- Ernie.
May 13th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Much of Swan’s forecasted magic rebound in Australia’s growth in 2010 and beyond will no doubt be spun to us and the media as China being the source of all this good fortune.
If the latest news on China’s trade situation and economic performance is a guide, the conventional wisdom of Chinese rising demand for our commodities is looking sick.
There is a huge over capacity problem in China’s export manufacturing and Commercial and private realestate sectors. The export sector make up more than 30% of China’s GDP. Chinese Banks too are struggling with rising Non Performing loans. I have no doubts that China will re-emerge as a big driver of world economic growth and trade eventually. But for the next several years China’s economy will undergo a significant restructuring. Meaning, lower domestic demand. Their stimulus will help, but in no way offset the decline in domestic economic activity. That is not a formula for recovery in commodity demand or prices. Which will knock the crutch out from under Swan’s recovery math;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/5311157/Chinas-export-industry-feels-the-pressure-as-demand-falls.html
“Chinese exports plunged for a sixth consecutive month, falling 22.6pc compared with a year ago….”
“Hao Daoming, an analyst at Galaxy securities in Beijing, agreed: “The trade figures are worse than expected. We will see exports dropping by at least 20pc for the rest of 2009 as uncertain world demand will remain a drag.”
“Imports to China fell 23pc the Customs Administration reported, indicating that domestic Chinese companies have been slow to follow the lead offered by the government stimulus package as the global outlook remains uncertain. “The fall in imports shows that domestic companies are not willing to invest,” said Qi Jingmei, an economist with the State Information Centre in Beijing…..”
May 13th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Ernie,
I think that the link that you gave was for the 80-09 budget of last year. I think that those ‘automatic stabilizers’ are the neo-classical mechanisms that keep their theory of self-stabilizing economies in the (hot) air.
The Detailed economic forecasts for 2009?10 and 2010?11 are here: http://www.budget.gov.au/2009-10/content/overview/html/overview_41.htm and the
and the Historical budget and net financial worth data are here: http://www.budget.gov.au/2009-10/content/overview/html/overview_42.htm
I’ve tried to do some simple crunching of the numbers so that i could have something to show for looking at all this, but I’m so far out of my area of expertise that I’ve got nothing.
Perhaps some people with more expertise, experience or familiarity can do something with them?
Cheers,
DrBob
May 13th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Hi Bruce Tulloch
I tend to agree after thinking like you do for some time now. Ihave been totally confused as to how reasonably intelligent people P.M. Treasurer, Treasury and R.B.A. economists can ALL get ALL wrong. Conspiracy or collusion call it what you like appears the only answer especially when known intellegensia with a business practical mind and contacts in Malcolm Turnbull shows all the “holding it back ” signs just in case he blows his greatest opportunity by being too negative by being plain honest. Sure puts trying to work it all out in a basket doesnt’ it? Damned if I know where to invest next now that I’ve sold my house and all my share over 12 mos ago Oh well if that’s my only problem time will sort it out. On a scale greater than me it would certainly appear that Steve is 100% correct making the conspiracy theory even more valid either that or they are dopes anyway as they say in the classics “who cares” same result isn’t it.
May 13th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
http://www.writingshop.ws/html/11th_hour-i.html?ref=patrick.net
a bit off topic but I agree with the sentiments.
I have no idea about the politics of what will happen when the world stops buying US treasuries….my God!
May 13th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
So our Prime Minister would like us to work harder and longer to use up our limited natural resources faster to chase illusory economy growth. I would have thought he had outgrown fairy tales.
May 13th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Glad to hear it DH,
I think I was privileged to hear it from Baxter too. He was an extreme advocate of nuclear power, which at the time I was a critic of (for engineering reasons); but he was also uber-sharp and he took great delight in sending Simkin up in his answer.
The actual context was a “meet the Professors” debate at a local school (Kogarah High) when I was still active in the Political Economy struggle at Sydney Uni. my mother received the invitation in her mail, and since I was still living in Hurstville, I saw it. So i dragged a group of PE activists along to picket the meeting, and Simkin was extremely annoyed to see us there.
The two men gave speeches about their future visions for the Australian economy, and Simkin’s speech was straight out of Micro 101: deregulate, enhance competition, blah blah. Baxter on the other hand had an industrialists vision: create massive companies specialising in particular industries that can compete on the world stage. I remember his quip about the car industry to this day. There should be just one car manufacturer, Australian owned, producing one type of car: “You can have any colour of car you like, so long as it’s white”.
I asked each speaker to comment on the other’s vision, and after Simkin objected to my very presence in the auditorium (in an audience of about 1000), he then sniggered about Baxter’s monopoly world.
Baxter simply hopped up and told that joke.
I don’t need to tell you who won that debate on that day–it was a lay down mazaire for Baxter–but unfortunately Simkin’s vision of how to construct our economy won out because economists and not physicists or engineers occupied all the positions of power. We are now reaping the “benefits” of Simkin’s vision.
PS I might add that exposure to the car industry has convinced me that a one car model doesn’t work–you need multiple cars to be able to maintain a design capability. But a single manufacturer with multiple car designs still makes sense.
May 13th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
“a young economist named Colin Simkin, 26 at the time he met Popper in 1937″
From
http://historyofaustralianthought.blogspot.com/2008/02/karl-popper-in-antipodes.html
May 13th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Simply, we need structural reform of our political system.
A few months back we had “show trials” in the US and UK where the investment bankers got wrapped across the knuckles by politicians for their greed and shortermism.
But how are they any different to the politician that never focuses beyond the next election?
I too watched Cutting Edge last night. And my overiding feeling was that we are not far behind them and catching up quickly – especially with the major increase to pensions in the budget announced just a few hours before.
We need to develop structures that hold politicians and their parties responsible well after they are removed from power!
Eg. heavily docking their pensions, and personal fines as well as fines to their political parties sufficient enough to hurt their ability to campaign through at least 1 electoral cycle for poor performance measured over the following decade or more.
Conversely, I am all for bonuses for jobs well done over the long term.
One very specific example. Say a minister really gets to the bottom of the apauling state of Aboriginal life expectancy, and at various set assessment times of 10 (15, 20 ??) years post leaving office it is clear that the gap between aboriginal and non-aboriginal life expectancy is being bridged – well I think that is a priceless contribution to our society, worthy of a very large bonus to the minister responsible and worthy of cudos for the entire government. Conversely, a minister and government shown demonstrably to worsen the situation further should be held accountable way after they are ditched at the electoral booth!!
People may disagree with this specific idea – and I’m sure there are lots of other ways to go about it – but I really think that the current situation should be used by the public to seek change so that politicians are held accountable for much longer than one election cycle!!
May 13th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Hi Mr Tulloch and others,
I for one do not believe in such a conspiracy as it would entail vast amounts of ingenuity with good deal of clairvoyance to implement.
It comes down to basic greed and self-protection.
I think that those in power are agents of the people that are acting more towards 90% of their own personal interest and 10% national interest. They live in the now and run hot with any idea that will make them look good in the short term, whilst giving themselves a good boost in the hip pocket for them and their rich mates.
They don’t care on what’s gonna happen in the long term, in fact its probably unlikely that they analyse what will happen the long term (look at the fudged forecast figures for proof of that). If anything bad happens, just cover it up. Deny, deny, deny or apologise 60 years down the track.
This is the result of a shonky political system and true democracy has been manipulated to a point where we can only vote for two political parties that are essentially the same and their members only look after each others wages, knock-offs and retirement benefits (sorry, now i’m conspiring).
May 13th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
sorry about that … I’m at home with a cold today
May 13th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
BTW, being a stay at home dad now with two boys on my hands, with my wife having now returned to work since the birth of our second, I’m a little pressed for time to contribute as much as I would like. But I enjoy catching up on the discussion when I can.
I’ll just add that I thought the limited extension of the boost was a reasonable outcome for those wanting to see fair housing policy (given Rudd’s recent form) – 3 months further at full rate, and then 3 months at 50% suggests to me that they are somewhat concerned about being seen to overstimulate the market.
I am also of the opinion that it is not pushing up prices as much as many believe – in fact, I think at some price points it is actually causing vendors to discount because FHBs are “the only show in town” with investors having gone awol.
When you consider that Fujitsu surveys show that around 60% of FHBs in the first few months of this year had LVRs of 90% or more, and couple that with the ABS data on average FHB loans, it is abundantly clear that most FHBs are buying around the $300K level in our capitals.
Martin North was kind enough to supply the data which confirmed this – here’s the average FHB purchase price for each state in January 2009 – NSW – $330K, Vic – $299K, Qld – $291K, SA – $262K, WA – $302K, TAS – $218K, NT – $312K, ACT – $307.
The point being that, sure, below $300K prices might have gotten a bit of a lift, but there would be many vendors – concerned about the bubble popping – keen to negotiate downward to FHBs’ price range (from the spectrum at or just below the earlier median price range) to ensure they get out quickly.
I suspect this as a major factor in the ABS figures showing the sharpest fall in house prices in 25 years in the March 09 quarter, well after the boost was introduced.
So my views on house price declines remain in place. However, seeing as the first home saving accounts have not been publicised at all – instead seeking to bring forward the purchase decision of as many FHBs as possible – I no longer see that as a factor in providing a floor to the market in 2 to 3 years time.
May 13th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Horsome
Thank goodness for that explanation I feel so much better that conspiracy is out (for it is collective and requires co-operation) and the individual virture of selfishness is alive and well. there is hope for us after all.
May 13th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
I do not wish to detract from the current conversation on this board but I have a problem regarding the ‘uncertainty paradigm’ and its implications for policy.
If we embrace the Post Keynesian stance on uncertainty, that the future is uncertain and the past is immutable, how can we possible justify intervention within the market (at this present moment I would prefer decentralised regulation over centralised). I’ll expand upon the point I am making by making reference to Keynes (1937 p. 214) view on behaviour:
Economic actors have uncertain knowledge of the future, there is no ‘scientific basis on which to form any calculable probability whatever. We simply do not know’. Nevertheless, the necessity for action and for decision compels us…’ to act. We manage to act by the following techniques:
1. ‘Assume that the present is a much more serviceable guide to the future…’. I.e. the past is immutable
2. That the ‘existing state of opinion as expressed in prices and the character existing output is based on correct summing up of future prospects, so that we can accept it as such unless and until something new and relevant comes into the picture’.
3. ‘knowing that our own individual judgment is worthless…’ we rely on ‘judgement of the world which is perhaps better informed…conventional judgement’.
Keynes (pp 214-214) states because of these techniques the market is subject to sudden and violent changes and that ‘…the forces of disillusion may suddenly impose a new conventional basis of valuation. All these pretty, polite techniques, made for a well-panelled board room and a nice regulated market, are liable to collapse. At all times the vague panic fears and equally vague and unreasoned hopes are not really lulled, and lie a little way below the surface’.
If we extend this to market regulation, are we not just creating the necessary conditions by which greater instability can occur? That because violent and sudden changes are prevented from occurring we are causing these violent and sudden changes to become more pronounced in the future. Furthermore any sort of regulation of the market will need to rely on ‘pretty polite techniques’ and imperfect, uncertain knowledge. I realise that this is a classical Austrian argument but this paradigm also suggests that these changes will also occur within the market as well, and that the market can create conditions by which violent and sudden changes are just as pronounced as that of a regulated market.
I don’t see any way around this problem. Now granted I do not have the knowledge or experience to suggest that there is an actual problem, but from what I’ve scratched off from the surface it appears quite apparent to me.
I’d really like to hear Steve’s and everyone else’s opinion on this problem. Am I missing something? Can someone point me in the direction to suggest that this isn’t a problem. Because of this I’m almost convinced that it doesn’t matter what system we choose, the best we can do is try and make it as ethical as possible, whilst limiting the impact that regulation and human action will have on the system i.e. through decentralisation. I stating this, the forces of globalisation appear to taking society in the other direction, towards greater centralisation.
Mark
Sources:
Keynes 1937, The general Theory of Employment, The Quarterly Journal of Economics. Pp 209 – 223
May 13th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
On the subject conspiracy or otherwise Mikhail Gorbachev ex president USSR said in 2008:
“The crisis did not come out of the blue.There had been warnings from different quarters,including economists (of course not named, but Steve!)-who are not susceptible to wishful thinking.Caution was also advised by veteran world leaders from the Trilateral Commission and the World Political forum,who were concerned that the financial markets were becoming a dangerous bubble with little or no relation to the actual flows of goods and services. All those warnings went unheeded.”
“In the coming months (AFR, October 2008) the greed and irresponsibility of the few will affect us all..” he goes on “we were told that the rising tide lifts all boats.” Now that this pernicious and immoral pyramid is collapsing,we must think about a model that will replace it.Change will have to be evolutionary.A new model will have to emerge,and it cannot be based entirely on profit and consumerism.” Conspiracy or otherwise, we need change everywhere,starting as one writer here noted ‘political change’ in ‘oz’, perhaps this ‘blog’ is a good start! we need a new political party to really ‘keep the (new) bastards honest!
May 13th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
I watch the “Ten Trillion and Counting” program on SBS as well. What strikes me is the absolute conformity and subservience to corporate power that the economists and commentators have.
The reason why the economists are crying “chicken little” is due to three social programs: social security, Medicare, and Medicaid. The last two are the real problem, as the graphs on the show illustrated.
The debate was bound within a narrow spectrum of acceptable thought: either cut the programs or take on more national debt to fund them. It was utterly ideological because it assumes that the US should continue with its private (corporate) health insurance system, which is highly inefficient as compared to a national health care system as found in every other Western country.
The per capita costs of private health care in the US are over $7,000, with ~50 million uninsured and tens of millions more with crappy coverage. In Australia, the per capita cost is around ~$2,800. In the Scandinavian countries which cover everything for free, the costs are slightly higher around $3,000-3,500.
One of the issues that rates among the most important for US citizens over the decades is a national health care system, which a majority support. Yet every US president in recent decades has either ignored it or said something about the high costs, and then ignored it. The reason is that the health insurance corporations have bought off the politicians to prevent a proper national health care system been introduced. Obama isn’t going to introduce one, he will just nibble around the edges of the current private system which is a total disaster.
I don’t think there was one person on the program that mentioned the health care issue in this way; it was either cut the programs or issues more debt to fund them. The ideological conformity was quite brazen. Check out CEPR’s guide to health care: http://www.cepr.net/calculators/iousadeficit/calc_iousa_deficit.html
May 13th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Thanks Steve! I am now starting to believe the depression has already set it. After the global economy passes a tipping point it will be very visible.
Right now I feel there is a lot of noise and distortions but the picture will become crystal clear eventually. For some people like Steve and a few here it was already clear.
Many of us here doubted and got confused my MSM, markets etc. BTB what is your take? Still doubting whether the depression will eventuate?
I think there will be a point where the many doubters here will be convinced and only after that can we expect the mass ignoramus public to come to that realization. BTB does this fit in with your Blog-o-meter?
I simply cannot see this madness continuing.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
I have had a chance to have a more in depth look at the Budget numbers and would like to update my over-optimistic post above.
The “can-openers” at Treasury overestimated revenue in 2008-09 by 7.8%. They usually get the revenue numbers reasonably close (Budget to Outcome)except when GDP growth strays from their growth comfort zone of 3-4%.
Well lets assume they have a can opener – here are the budget revenue numbers with more realistic Expenses based on 10% growth (IMHO expenses are more likely to grow at the long term average of 12%).
Expenses Revenue Deficit
2008-09 324.2 295.9 -28.3
2009-10 356.6 290.6 -66.0
2010-11 392.3 294.8 -97.5
2011-12 431.5 320.8 -110.7
2012-13 474.7 349.7 -125.0
That is a total deficit of $427.5 billion by June 2013. Combined with a net financial position of -$17.8 billion (in June 2008) will see Commonwealth net worth plummet to -$445.3 billion. That is $20,000 for every man woman and child.
If, as Steve quite rightly points out that Treasury does not have a can opener, revenue growth of 8.8% in 2011-12 and 9% in 2012-13 does not eventuate – then we could easily add (actually subtract) another $50 billion to the Net Worth.
The real task at hand is to either:
Increase taxes by $40,000 over the next four years (we only have 11 million taxpayers). Yep that is $10,000 extra tax each year for all of us.
OR
Cut $100 billion a year from Government Programs. We could achieve that by wiping out the Health, Education and Defence Budgets or by cutting welfare payments/pensions by 80%.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Whew!
http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/86is/JonesStilwell.html
May 13th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
The appalling gap in health outcomes for Aboriginal people is one of the worst shames that Australia needs to own up to.
If you go to page 228 of the Interim Report of the NHHRC you will see why Aboriginal people suffer such poor health outcomes.
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/nhhrc/publishing.nsf/Content/BA7D3EF4EC7A1F2BCA25755B001817EC/$File/CHAPTER%209.pdf
The Commonwealth government spends 3 times the national average on health for people in the wealthiest suburbs such as Double Bay. It spends less than one third the national average on Medicare for Aboriginal Australians.
This is an absolute disgrace – Mr Rudd and Mr Howard you should hang your heads in shame.
This problem can be fixed if the Commonwealth would provide the same health resources to Aboriginal people as it does to millionaires.
Tinkering around the edges with pilot programs hasn’t worked – allocate real resources according to actual health needs and the problem can be solved.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Hi Joshua,
The Budget numbers come from fairytale land. There is not even an attempt to face the reality that growth will go negative. Also as Stats Watcher points out the expense projections are pure fantasy.
As I have held for a while. The Keynesian ideal will soon be rejected, when reality sets in. Fiscal reality has already set in, in Iceland, Ireland, some parts of Eastern Europe, Spain and the UK is coming around.
Taxes will rise (but the base will shrink). Government debt will continue to rise. But the biggest change that will occur will be on the spending side. As the depression takes hold government wages will fall, programs will be scrapped and pensioners, the unemployed and the mentally ill will be virtually living off vouchers.
I still hold that Australia will fare much better than many other countries (because of our low population and access to food). Although it won’t feel like it is better to the man on the street. Much of what I have described is already well underway in some parts of the world.
Australians are worse than ostriches. They are sheep with their heads in the sand.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
So far I haven’t seen anybody who has seriously considered what prof. Mitchell wrote:
(what I have already mentioned)
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=1229
“What they want you to believe is that the government will be so heavily indebted that they will have to increase tax rates to pay the debt back. As you will understand from my previous blogs, any sovereign government such as we have in Australia or, say, the US Government, or British Government, or Japanese Government, or the hundreds of other governments around the World, do not face a financial constraint. This means that: (a) the spending does not need to be financed; (b) that any debt instruments (bonds) that mature can be easily paid out by the government crediting relevant bank accounts for the coupon value (face value of the bond) plus interest owed; and (c) that neither of these actions have any necessary implications for future tax rates or interest rates.”
I am not an economist and I cannot say that this statement is true or false. I haven’t said that I want the solution mentioned above.
But at least somebody with professional credentials has contradicted the opinion that we will have to pay back the debt.
Maybe we are sleepwalking into a socialist system though. Anyway I prefer to wake up in the Socialist Republic of Australia than to face the real depression Steve is writing about (and possibly the World War III as a consequence).
May 13th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
GO Stats!!
May 13th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
ak
That Billy Blog article was written by one uniformed author. Gov debt matters hugely; countries that default face the wrath of the IMF. Why is it that so many people still dont understand the basics
May 13th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Aac,
but there are countries which kicked off IMF and are doing well (Argentina).
Prof. Mitchell wrote about buying back bonds not about defaulting. If the debt is in a foreign currency then you cannot print your way out. If the debt is in the domestic currency then this will work (I lived 23 years in a so-called communist country and they were doing exactly that) but may have nasty side effects like corruption and inefficiency and inflation.
Prof. Mitchell has serious credentials and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Chinese government is following a similar advice.
Why do you think that starvation of people is better than invalidating of some of the “wealth” of the middle class?
I am not advocating anything I just want all the options to be analysed. What about combining the market and socialist economics? Doesn’t it work in China? Again – China in Oz is not my dream. I just want to analyse the feasible options and guess the future.
May 13th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
“Of the 1,200 companies surveyed online in March, 18% said they believe that annual sales will increase in 2009 and 37% said they expect sales to remain flat, compared with last year. But 45% said they expect sales to decrease in 2009.
The companies in the survey ranged from annual sales of $500,000 to $10 million.
The participants also said they plan to cut costs by reducing staff and benefits.
A full 30% of those surveyed said they plan to lay off employees, while 52% said they will freeze pay and 41% said they will eliminate bonuses. Another 9% said they plan to close or consolidate facilities.”
http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090512/REG/905129978
Look past the headline on this one.Spin at it’s best.
I sometime wonder what planet members of the MSM are on.
IF 45% of US businesses see themselves in the next year reducing staff, lowering wages, reducing benefits and consolidating outlets,how on earth is it plausible (other than by fraudulent numbers)to promote a turnaround in that economy? And if a recovery is somehow magically absent from the US, what then for the rest of the OECD?
May 13th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
I heard a nice joke about economists along the same vein some years ago Says the economist “That may very well work in practice, but will it work in theory?”
May 13th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Oops, sorry- that should read SMALL businesses above.
This is what the big businesses are doing;
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gm28-2009apr28,0,7093793.story
“GM proposes painful downsizing in bid for survival
Bill Pugliano / Getty Images
General Motors Chief Executive Fritz Henderson discusses the company’s viability plan during a news conference at GM’s world headquarters in Detroit.
The automaker would to shed 21,000 workers, 2,600 dealers, $44 billion in debt and four brands, including Pontiac, while making the U.S. government its majority owner”
2,600 Dealers- now THAT is a whole lot of jobs.
Ouch!
May 13th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Hi BTB
when you say they will be living off vouchers…how does this save money for the Govt? …in other words why not just pay these groups less?
May 13th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Bill is correct on this front, but it is feasible that governments that don’t in principle have to tax to repay interest will nonetheless do so because their belief systems are driven by neoclassical economic advice.
I also differ somewhat from Bill in that I see the need to have as much spending as possible financed out of income rather than either debt or government-based money creation (meaning here what most people call “printing money”, which isn’t what is normally done but which captures the flavour of what is done). Ultimately I believe that money income financed solely out of money creation rather than the monetisation of actual production, whether that is generated by a finance sector funding Ponzi schemes or a government papering over the consequences of one with fiat- generated money, is going to lead to grief.
But if the government does the latter in the interim then it can prevent a Depression–if the productive capacity exists to hire the workers who lose their jobs courtesy of a financial crisis. Unfortunately, we don’t have that productive capacity because simultaneously we have shifted production offshore in the guise of globalisation. If therefore you end up with a productive system that can’t produce what is needed, then you will have a crisis.
May 13th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
It’s crazy but the reality is that Joe Public would much rather belief fantasies such as these budget projections than anything close to what is an increasingly unpleasant reality.
Steve identified this some time ago – we need to go a lot further down before there will be sufficient public anger to force our politicians towards real structural change of the system. It may not become utopia but a wider understanding of the way they were hoodwinked during this 40-year credit bubble may trigger a few genuinely structural changes.
We can only hope
May 13th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
DrBob127,
That was an excellent article you mentioned. The authors identified the neoclassical orthodoxy by the following statement:
“The behaviour of the academic elite can best be likened to a jealous priesthood attempting the dogmatic imposition of a (secular) theology on succeeding generations of novices, and engaging in a persistent inquisition of heretics whenever such dissidence gains sufficient prominence as to cause any trouble to entrenched holy writ.”