“And, at this point, confidence is what it is all about… The first thing is to maintain some confidence in ourselves and the prospects for our country over time… Unfortunately, there is no lever marked ‘confidence’ that policy-makers can take hold of. Our task is very much one of seeking to behave, across the board, in ways that will foster, rather than erode, confidence. It is such confidence that, more than anything else, will help to drive us along the road to recovery.” (Glenn Stevens, April 21st 2009)
“I fancy that over-confidence seldom does any great harm except when, as, and if, it beguiles its victims into debt.” (Irving Fisher, 1933)
In his recent speech “The Road To Recovery“, Australia’s Reserve Bank Governor Glenn Stevens used “the C word” 17 times–versus, for example, 15 uses of the “R” word (“recession”). The message was clearly that, if only we can all be confident, then the other “R” word (“recovery”–which received ten mentions) will surely occur.
Another prominent economist who had the same attitude at the outbreak of a financial crisis was Irving Fisher. Speaking to a bankers conference just two days before the Great Crash of 1929, Fisher argued that market downturns were caused by a “lunatic fringe”. Once they had exited, the bull market of the preceding years would resume:
“There is a certain lunatic fringe in the stock market, and there always will be whenever there is any successful bear movement going on… they will put the stocks up above what they should be and, when frightened, … will immediately want to sell out… when it is finally rid of the lunatic fringe, the stock market will never go back to 50 per cent of its present level…
We shall not see very much further, if any, recession in the stock market, but rather … a resumption of the bull market, not as rapidly as it has been in the past, but still a bull rather than a bear movement.” (Fisher 1929)
Fisher’s confidence led him to hang on to his margin-financed stocks (worth over $100 million in 2000-dollar terms). Despite his confidence, the stock market continued its plunge from its peak of 31.3 in July 1929 to the nadir of 4.77 in May of 1932, while unemployment rose from zero to 25 percent. Fisher was wiped out financially, and left to ponder how he could have got the behaviour of the market, and the economy, so badly wrong.
Three years later, he reached the conclusion that he had been misled by two core elements of the neoclassical theory he had helped build: the beliefs that the economy was always in equilibrium, and that the debt commitments borrowers had entered into to purchase financial assets were based on correct forecasts of future economic prospects.
On equilibrium, he reasoned, even if it were true that the economy tended towards equilibrium, random events alone would ensure that all economic variables were either above or below their equilibrium levels. Therefore economic theory had to be about disequilibrium rather than equilibrium:
“Theoretically there may be— in fact, at most times there must be— over- or under-production, over- or under-consumption, over- or under spending, over- or under-saving, over- or under-investment, and over or under everything else. It is as absurd to assume that, for any long period of time, the variables in the economic organization, or any part of them, will “ stay put,” in perfect equilibrium, as to assume that the Atlantic Ocean can ever be without a wave.” (Fisher 1933)
This realisation in turn put paid to any notion that today’s debt commitments were based on an accurate prediction of tomorrow’s economic outcomes. Instead, he identified over-indebtedness as one of the two key causes of Great Depression:
“two dominant factors [are ...] over-indebtedness to start with and deflation following soon after… these two economic maladies, the debt disease and the price-level disease, are, in the great booms and depressions, more important causes than all others put together.
Thus over-investment and over-speculation are often important; but they would have far less serious results were they not conducted with borrowed money. That is, over-indebtedness may lend importance to over-investment or to over-speculation.
The same is true as to over-confidence. I fancy that over-confidence seldom does any great harm except when, as, and if, it beguiles its victims into debt.” (Fisher 1933)
One would hope that economic theory had learnt from the Great Depression, and in particular from Fisher’s insights. Unfortunately, economics was eager to unlearn these lessons, because the very phenomenon of a Depression was anathema to a profession that had always sought to eulogise the market economy, rather than to understand it. Equilibrium came back again in the guise of the “Neoclassical-Keynesian synthesis” in the 1950s. By the 1990s, all vestiges of Keynes had been thrown away–and nothing of Fisher had been even assimilated in the first place (skerricks of his thought are percolating through now though: see The Economist for a pretty good overview of Fisher).
Today, macroeconomic models like TRYM (the TReasurY Macroeconomic model that is used to prepare the Australian Federal Budget) presume that the economy tends towards a “long run equilibrium”. The apparent dynamics such models display are simply the convergence of the model from an initial starting point to the assumed long run equilibrium.
For example, the figure below shows the TRYM model’s predictions for unemployment from March 1995 till March 2010 (Figure 10: Dynamic Adjustment towards Steady State – Unemployment; Modelling Section, Macroeconomic Analysis Branch, Commonwealth Treasury, The Macroeconomics Of The Trym Model Of The Australian Economy, Commonwealth of Australia 1996). The model “predicted” that unemployment would fall from around 9 percent in 1995 to just below 7 percent in 2010, simply on the basis that unemployment was assumed to converge to an a long run equilibrium rate of 7 percent over time (the actual level fell well below this, and the assumed equilibrium unemployment rate–the “NAIRU”–was therefore later reduced to 5.25 percent).
Virtually everyone knows Keynes’s quip that “in the long run we are all dead”. Yet very few realise that Keynes’s target was precisely this approach to economic modelling–of assuming that the economy would simply tend to return to equilibrium after any disturbance:
“ But this long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is long past the ocean is flat again.” (Keynes, 1923)
Hobbled by this naive belief in equilibrium, the economics profession was as unprepared for today’s crisis as it had been for the Great Depression. Now that the crisis is well and truly with us, all conventional “neoclassical” economists can offer is the hope that the crisis can be overcome by a good, strong dose of confidence.
From Fisher’s point of view, such a belief is futile. In an economy with an excessive level of debt and low inflation, he argued that confidence was irrelevant–and in fact dangerously misleading, as he knew from painful personal experience. Given over-indebtedness and low levels of inflation, a “chain reaction” would occur in which:
“(1) Debt liquidation leads to distress selling and to
(2) Contraction of deposit currency, as bank loans are paid off, and to a slowing down of velocity of circulation. This contraction of deposits and of their velocity, precipitated by distress selling, causes
(3) A fall in the level of prices, in other words, a swelling of the dollar. Assuming, as above stated, that this fall of prices is not interfered with by reflation or otherwise, there must be
(4) A still greater fall in the net worths of business, precipitating bankruptcies and
(5) A like fall in profits, which in a “ capitalistic,” that is, a private-profit society, leads the concerns which are running at a loss to make
(6) A reduction in output, in trade and in employment of labor. These losses, bankruptcies, and unemployment, lead to
(7) Pessimism and loss of confidence, which in turn lead to
(8) Hoardinq and slowing down still more the velocity of circulation.The above eight changes cause
(9) Complicated disturbances in the rates of interest, in particular, a fall in the nominal, or money, rates and a rise in the real, or commodity, rates of interest.” (Fisher 1933; The Debt Deflation Theory of Great Depressions)
One key phenomenon that Fisher emphasised was that deflation could make the debt burden worse even as borrowers reduced their nominal debt levels–something I have termed “Fisher’s Paradox”. In Fisher’s words:
“Each dollar of debt still unpaid becomes a bigger dollar, and if the over-indebtedness with which we started was great enough, the liquidation of debts cannot keep up with the fall of prices which it causes.
In that case, the liquidation defeats itself. While it diminishes the number of dollars owed, it may not do so as fast as it increases the value of each dollar owed.
Then, the very effort of individuals to lessen their burden of debts increases it, because of the mass effect of the stampede to liquidate in swelling each dollar owed. Then we have the great paradox which, I submit, is the chief secret of most, if not all, great depressions:
The more the debtors pay, the more they owe. The more the economic boat tips, the more it tends to tip. It is not tending to right itself, but is capsizing.”
This is a “disequilibrium” phenomenon par excellence, because not only does it occur out of equilibrium, it actually drives the system further from equilibium. And it is indeed what happened during the Great Depression: America’s debt to GDP ratio rose even as nominal debt levels were reduced. The debt ratio rose from 175 at the end of 1929 to 235 percent in 1932, even as nominal private debt fell from US$163 billion to US$134 billion.
Even though the public’s initial attempt to reduce its debt burden was foiled, the reduction in debt nonetheless did have an impact: it drove the economy into Depression. In the credit-driven real world in which we live, aggregate demand is the sum of GDP plus the change in debt. The public’s attempt to reduce debt meant that the reductions in debt substantially reduced demand, and this deleveraging was the unstoppable force that made the Great Depression “great”.
As the next chart shows, during the Roaring Twenties, the annual increase in debt was responsible for up to ten percent of aggregate demand. But when the Great Crash brought this period of leveraged speculation to an end, the deleveraging that Fisher described meant that the change in debt started to reduce from demand–and at its peak, the reduction in debt in 1932 reduced aggregate demand by 25 percent.
As is obvious, unemployment skyrocketed as aggregate demand collapsed. When debt reaches the sky high levels it did before the Great Depression, deleveraging becomes the dominant force determining the level of unemployment–but obviously there is a lag. Unemployment is the classic “lagging indicator”, because firms take time to respond to a drop in demand, firstly by ceasing to hire new workers and then by sacking existing ones.
When working with annual data at the time of the Great Depression, this lag appears to be about one and a half years. Applying that lag to the period from mid-1929 till mid-1938 (when Government spending and armaments production for the looming war in Europe started to boost demand and caused unemployment to fall), the correlation between debt’s contribution to demand and unemployment was -0.85. The change in debt’s contribution to demand thus explains 85 percent of the unemployment experience of the Great Depression.
This is not good news for us today, for three reasons. Firstly, debt levels today are far higher than they were prior to the Great Depression–the force of deleveraging is thus likely to be greater now than it was in the 1930s. Secondly, given this higher level of debt, the correlation between the debt-financed proportion of aggregate demand and unemployment is even stronger now than it was during the Great Depression. Thirdly, given the greater dependence on debt today than ever before, and the social changes that have gone with the Ponzification of Capitalism, the lag between a fall in the debt-financed component of demand and a rise in unemployment has dropped to just two months.
The change in debt is therefore the best–and most ominous–predictor of future unemployment levels. Though well down from the peak level of being responsible for 25% of aggregate demand, private debt is still generating 10 percent of demand in the USA. Yet even with still positive debt-financed demand, unemployment has risen to 8.7 percent. If deleveraging results in debt reducing aggregate demand by 25 percent as it did in the Great Depression, then unemployment is going to go much, much higher.
The same analysis applies to Australia. Since the crisis has yet to hit Australia as strongly as it has the USA or Europe, the belief that “we are different”–which I call “Kangaroo Economics” in honour of our national fauna–is still prevalent here. So too is the belief that, if we do suffer a recession, it will be due to external forces rather than to our own economic circumstances.
The data begs to differ. Though our aggregate debt level didn’t reach Yankee heights–our peak debt to GDP level was about 165%, versus 290% in the USA before deflation started–our rate of growth of debt was much higher, so that at its peak the growth in debt was responsible for 22% of aggregate demand. Now that debt is starting to fall, unemployment is starting to rise. There is every reason to expect deleveraging in Australia to drive unemployment well into double digits.
So confidence is not “all it is about”: confidence played its role over the last thirty years as it “beguiled its victims into debt”, in Fisher’s evocative phrase. We don’t need more of it now, so much as less of it back then–but of course, we can’t amend history.
The victims of past overconfidence include Central Bankers, whose rescues of the financial system simply encouraged it to search out a new group of potential borrowers to replace those who had already been debt-saturated. They were victims of debt, as much as were the borrowers, because the naive theory of economics they followed ignored the role of debt completely. They therefore couldn’t see the process that was leading to crisis, even as their interventions egged that process on to heights that it could never have reached without them.
Had Greenspan and his equivalents around the world not intervened in 1987, it is quite possible that we would have experienced a mild Depression back then–mild because debt was only equivalent to 1929 levels then, because a larger Government sector than in the 1920s would have counterbalanced the private sector downturn, and because higher inflation in the late 80s would have helped reduced the real burden of debt.
Now we are sitting on the precipice of a mountain of debt twice as high as in the Great Depression, with low inflation turning into deflation as Fisher warned, and with Central Bankers who do not have a clue why the economy has suddenly gone from “the Great Moderation” to “the Greatest Crisis Since the Great Depression”.
Over-confidence in the face of rising debt did beguile us during the long boom. Confidence in the face of deleveraging will not save us during the coming Depression.
END OF COMMENTARY
Comments on the Australian Data
Debt levels in Australia are very close to falling in nominal terms, and in fact only mortgage debt is still rising: both business and personal debt (other than mortgages) have fallen in the last few months. It is conceivable that, were it not for the “First Home Buyers Boost”, mortgage debt as well would be falling now too (the scheme is more aptly described as the “First Home Vendors Boost”, since prices at the low end of the market have been driven up by far more than the $7,000 increase in the grant).
As a result, the debt to GDP ratio has fallen for the last four months–though this is to some extent masked by Australia’s practice of summing the previous four quarters of GDP data to derive annual GDP, versus the American practice of simply multiplying the current quarter’s GDP figure by 4. Using the Australian approach, our debt to GDP ratio is now 160%; using the American, it is 162%, since GDP fell by 0.5% in the previous quarter.
Whichever way you cut it, deleveraging is now well and truly underway, and unemployment will therefore rise dramatically in the next few months. Most neoclassical economists are predicting 7.5% unemployment by mid-2010; I expect it will have entered double figures by early in 2010.
Table One
Table Two






May 4th, 2009 at 1:56 am
Steve,
The US government has already guaranteed over 12 trillion dollars in securities such as Fanny and Freddie debt and bank guarantees and is likely to do much more. Won’t that go a long way towards preventing deflation in the US?
May 4th, 2009 at 2:09 am
Steve,
Reference for above 12 trillion dollar figure:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=armOzfkwtCA4&refer=home
May 4th, 2009 at 2:25 am
I have a bet with a friend of mine where I state that median house price in Melbourne ccording to the REIV figures will drop 30% from peak within 2 years.
So far roughly 15% drop in five quarters from the peak in Dec 2007.
http://data1.reiv.com.au/trendchart/default.aspx
Just 3 more quarters to get the extra 15%. Considering the fact that the FHBG has had an affect and that unemployment has not even kicked in yet, even if I do not ‘win’ the bet within 9 months the 30% drop is going to be an inevebility regardless.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:54 am
I’m trying to get my head around what a 290% level of aggregate debt means in the real economy. Is it that there’s just too many promises concerning resources in the future, and that causes problems in the real economy? My intuition isn’t working on this.
May 4th, 2009 at 8:22 am
By focusing on confidence, the RBA sides with the herd and ignores reality. They should at least think of George Soros and reflexivity.
Sure confidence helps one climb the mountain. But boy, a loss of confidence causes one to fall down the mountain faster and further than one rose. Confidence turns into loss of confidence “overnight”.
Does this mean that the RBA’s main weapon to fight this crises is now hope? Hope that we will all stay confident and therefore keep the bubble alive.
Glenn Stevens should open his eyes and resign. If he gets out now, he may not be remembered as the guy that fell asleep at the wheel.
May 4th, 2009 at 9:59 am
I would add to the confidence point….
Lets start with an observation that has been well made by Steve and other contributors to this site. The last few significant recessions; 70s, early 80s, early 90s has seen a downturn in the rate of debt accumulation, the economy stall, unemployment rise and no surprise a recession. On the way out we have seen the opposite – the resumption of the debt engine, return of confidence, unemployment falls and the return of improved economic performance and prima-facie economic prosperity.
Neo-Classical economics seems to be fixated on the notion that if only people were just more confident – that they would then return to their borrowing ways, and hey the debt engine is back on and economic activity returns to some “normal level”. What this argument overlooks however – is the fact that debt accumulation does in fact have limits. There are limits at the individual economic agent level in which your job does not generate enough income to service previously accumulated debt (ie – mortgage, car loan, credit cards etc) and put food on the table. But equally there must be a limit at the national or international level – at which national or global GDP is insufficient to support accumulated debt.
Consequently there is a debt limit to the system! Now of course this limit may not be factually observable or even knowable – but that does not change the fact that it exists. So given it exists – the point at which it is reached or exceded is one of perception of the sum total of economic agents. So contrary to it being a lack of confidence – the existance of a slow down in debt accumulation or deleveraging is simply the rationale response of households, firms and businesses to the reality that they believe they are overextended on the debt front. And once it turns – it can conceivably be reversed for an extended period as it can take more than just months to pay down a mortgage to a level to which households become comfortable, particularly in an environment of collapsing incomes. (eg – Japan). As BTB might put it – the social mood changes from excess and speculation to frugality and paying down past debts…..
May 4th, 2009 at 10:56 am
We have been experiencing an exponetial growth of debt relative to inflation.
The fractional reserve banking system is a debt based money system and because interest is payable on all outstanding debt, the system is doomed exponential expansion and ultimatley collapse. This is what we are seeing now, and it has essentially been built up ever since the USD became officially fiat in the early 70’s.
I think it will take 10-15 years to unwind with the majority of the damage coming in the next 3 years unless new ways are found to pump up debt again (or a new money system is created).
Sites besides this one I found useful understanding this mess. chrismartenson.com and elliotwave international (understanding socioeconmic mood)
May 4th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Like many here, I am disaffected with conventional neo-classical economics. I want to share a little anecdote with dear readers of this fine blog. The other day I attended a lunch with a bunch of friends, one of whom is an economist with the RBA. After the polite formalities, the two of us got down to a discussion on the extraordinary events we are witnessing in the UK and USA (QE etc), as well as the solvency (or apparent lack thereof) of the major US banks such as BAC and Citi. The conversation throughout was rather lighthearted and fun.
Next, I talked about my impressions of Ric Battelino and other RBA deputy governors and the way they always seemed to “talk their book” regarding property prices. Then we got onto the topic of the “stress test” for the US banks, given their exposures to residential and commercial property in the USA.
At that point, I asked a question (perhaps even more straight-shooting and direct than I had originally intended): “Has the RBA modelled the effect of a 20% decline in property prices on the balance sheets of Big-4 banks?”
It’s difficult to describe what happened, as it’s only my subjective opinion here. But in my view, the entire tone of the conversation suddenly turned, and I was sure for a moment that I even saw a flash of genuine “fear” on the eyes of the person to whom I was speaking. It’s really difficult to describe, but to me it was that “don’t talk to anyone about this” kind of fear. It only lasted a moment, but they then swallowed (dryly) and shifted uncomfortably. They did not answer the question and moved quickly to another topic.
Take from this anecdote what you will. I may have misread it entirely. But I can tell you at that moment the entire conversation changed and the discomfort was as palpable as the silence.
May 4th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Hi 46137,
And welcome aboard. I may jump the gun on some of my bloggers here, but I recommend that you read the post entitled “The Roving Cavaliers of Credit”. Cheers, Steve
May 4th, 2009 at 11:41 am
I’m certain that public mood and therefore “confidence” has meaningfully changed course in Australia. The question is; to what extent?
Thanks so much once again Steve , for anwering that (to me) vital question. This process has a substantial ways to run. We will get further clues this Friday night with the monthly US payrolls data- keep an eye on the U6 series which captures also the disillusioned and low hours temporary jobs data, as it was measured in The GD. Last month it was 15.6% unemployed as I recall, Depression level stats.
I fully agree with your comments BTB on the RBA. Govt/Treasury/RBA are in fact a cabal of spruikers who are now actively playing the “confidence trick” that Steve illustrates above. And as scandalous as that may be, a shattering of collective confidence in property would rock Australia to it’s foundations. So I understand their motives but so also should more Australians.They might be better prepared for what is coming.
Reading John Mauldin’s latest e- letter , he provides a very clear outline of why the US economy can and will not stabilize from it’s decline while excess leverage remains in the US system. It will not matter “if the banks are able to start lending again.” Household collateral for more debt/credit has either been exhausted and/or destroyed. The US consumer circa 2000- 2007 no longer exists.
As Galbraith recently commented;
“The desire for a return to normal is very powerful. It motivates both the ritual confidence of public officials and the dry numerical optimism of business economists, who always see prosperity just around the corner.The forecasts of these people , like those of official agencies such as the Congressional Budget Office, always see a turnaround within a year and a return to high employment within four or five years. In a strict sense, the belief is without foundation. Liquidation of excessive debt is now, and will remain for a time, the highest priority of American households. That is in part because for the moment they want to hold on to cash, and therefore they do not wish to borrow, and in part because with the collapse of house values, they no longer have collateral to borrow against. And so long as that is the case, there can be no strong recovery of private spending or business investment.”
And without the US driving world growth, world trade and with it Australia’s economy has only one direction to take. Not in a straight line certainly, but the trend downward remains intact.
http://www.texasobserver.org/article.php?aid=3031
May 4th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Thanks once again Steve for presenting a clear set of numbers. It is interesting that there is not a great deal of worry about business funding in Australia as this is dropping.
The big 4 are keeping well clear of any new business customers (so I am told) as they have more than enough work with mortgage and existing business to be able to reject those that have been banking else where for the last 10 years.It seems that if you require debt and don’t have any hard assets then you get rejected.
This will eventually drive unemployment up (loss of business) which will have an effect on asset prices in the medium term (2 years approx.). A lot of people appear to be holding their breath waiting for this to pass but the size of the problems and the time frames are just to great to reasonably expect this to work.
Once again thanks for the good work and insight.
May 4th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Steve
Are you saying that no debt implies no depression(s)?
Thanks
Brendan
May 4th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
DH,
This is exactly why I believe the outsomes are skewed towards a high-inflation scenario in Australia.
The Reserve Bank (as with all other central banks worldwide) is fully aware of the potentially disasterous effects of debt deflation.
The problem is the inflated level of asset prices (and consequently debt levels) relative to current prices (consumer prices and wages).
The resolution of this problem (in greatly simplified terms) is the convergence of asset prices to lower multiples of current prices, which could occur in multiple ways.
In the US in the 1930s, deflation of asset prices as well as current prices occurred, with disasterous consequences. In the 1970s asset prices stagnated while current prices increased. In Japan in the 1990s asset prices tanked while current prices were stable.
Central banks and governments will do all they can to ensure that the convergence takes an “inflationary” form. As they control the issuance of the base money supply, they have a very good chance of inducing this desired price inflation.
May 4th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Bill Evans quote today on 2.2% fall in house prices in Q1 (compared to Q4): ” that was a big big surprise,we were expecting a flat figure….” (any more quotes would be just torture folks!)
The arrogance and sheer ‘pig headedness’ of some ‘market economists’in ‘oz’ is just well………!!!
As ‘bullturnedbear’ would say….mooooooo!;mooooo..!!there goes the herd!!!
May 4th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Yes, pretty much. You can still have downturns and cycles etc., but not serious crises.
May 4th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
tommyt,
Westpac chooses to ignore it’s own model, deciding to consider them wrong (they indicate a seriously tanking economy) because they don’t produce the desired outcome (an economy headed for equilibrium and then growth). Therefore, Evans is being regularly surprised, which is NO surprise. Just like it was a “big surprise” that Australian Unemployment rose .5% in one month.
Evans, James, Koshie etc….. they are all talking (air)heads with vested interests.
DH,
Thanks for the info in your post. When this is all said and done, we will be able to pick up bank shares at a fraction of today’s price – assuming they still exist.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
It seems to me that confidence cancels out the equation – confidence when the economy is sick must be transitory; confidence when the economy is sound will sort itself out. Though I suppose when the economic fundamentals turn around, confidence will lag and needs encouragement.
Does Glenn Stevens truly believe that the economic fundamentals have turned around?
During this whole exercise I’ve been left wondering “do these people actually believe what they are saying?” This “Confidence Trick”, as Steve puts it, seems to be the main game and the rule is: don’t get caught uttering pessimistic thoughts or somebody will pin the blame on you. I find the resulting layer of opaque blah insulting and frustrating.
In the absence of anything more insightful from the usual suspects at this crucial time, it seems to me that Confidence is the only theory they are leaving themselves with for the day of reckoning that Steve foresees. However, I worry that there will be no day of reckoning, at least not for a long time in Australia.
BTW I hated economics until you came along Steve. If only you were as known in 1978-79 when I “did” Economics at High School. I believe that these early Economics courses are a natural selection process for a particular personality and therefore that change is unlikely from the output end.
Cheers,
Muzz
(Joe Blow non-economist)
May 4th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Hi can anyone here please tell me how Roubini is saying he is now optimistic with the US government actions and everything is working out better than he expected?
How the heck is he saying ‘he sees a ray of light at the end of the tunnel’? This is at odds with Steve’s deleveraging will swamp any such rescue efforts and also with Schiffs views that all this is just nonsense and is driving them deeper into dept when they need to get out of debt.
Any lets be honest with ourselves do you really thing the US government is going to say Well..All the big banks too big to fail have not passed the stress test!. To say that would cause a crash!
What they are more likely to say is that most of these banks are good now and here are some tiny regional banks that did not make the cut.
Schiff makes a lot of sense even though some might question his calls on the US$(hyper inflation) and Fall of US empire and rise of Asian bull. On the other hand he talks about asset price deflation but loss of purchasing power for the US$ and there seems to be some jibe amount China and India.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
The game is up alright;
“THE Reserve Bank’s worst nightmare, throwing a party over interest rates and nobody showing up, is coming to pass. ”
“Burdening business with rate hikes as the recession deepens will backfire badly by destroying jobs and potential customers, suggesting the recent rally in bank stocks was overdone.
Investment has already slumped and as more small businesses go to the wall the banks’ bad debts will mount.
In turn they’ll have to trim their dividends again and raise extra capital to pay for them. And as the banks have been telling us, nothing the Reserve can do will make it any easier.”
http://smallbusiness.smh.com.au/managing/finance/banks-gouge-small-business–616830548.html
Kevin to the rescue ? (with his truckload of taxpayer dollars)
May 4th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Quantitative Easing / Printing Money: So what do you do when the last resort in the Neo-Classical playbook doesn’t work? Could it be that credit and debt is collapsing faster than the printing press can operate….
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article6207358.ece
May 4th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Steve,
The chief analyst at my work has been watching this for years. He’s not so much into forecasting and dismisses the economics profession quite openly. He prefers to call himself an observer.
He’s big on money supply as a key indicator and his main device was tracking money supply vs GDP growth between 1998 to 2005, noticing a 160:125 ratio. He reacted quite swiftly in 2007 when the first sub-prime blip occured.
However, he has made one of his few ‘forecasts’, based on the language of central bankers and thesis of Bernanke.
His quote was the response, which to date has been classical Minsky, was ‘whatever it takes’, in terms of Friedman-esque helicopters.
I kept quoting your lines of “what the Fed has be doing is not enough”, comparing M0 increases to real levels of deleveraging, and that this would have to be multiplied 10 to 20 times. He just repeats ‘whatever it takes’.
You commented I believe on M0 (?) supply rising from $800 billion to greater than $2 trillion.
What if this was to blow out to $5 trillion, $10 trillion?
May 4th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
“Unfortunately, there is no lever marked ‘confidence’ that policy-makers can take hold of. Our task is very much one of seeking to behave, across the board, in ways that will foster, rather than erode, confidence.”- Glenn Stevens.
” OUR task & …accross the board..”
Stevens is chiding the audience, and I beleive this audience was all Business (Resources, Retail, Media,Construction, Banks etc), as well as exhorting them ; WE all better get out there and spin,spin,spin only good news , like we are all Warnie’s – because we cannot rely on interest rate cuts from here on in to boost collapsing consumer confidence.
The RBA has it’s pathetic “Hollow Men” as well now.
May 4th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Chris Joye seems confused about House prices falling and yet he wants to clear the confusion in the mind of others?
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Which-way-for-house-prices-pd20090504-RQ7AZ?OpenDocument&src=srch
I am really questioning whether one can simply say thats the neo tendency and forgive them as I clearly see a confirmed bias and vested interest in many cases.
How can you be contend with yourself if you are really conning/deluding people to think otherwise and these are peoples lives (way of life) we are talking about? Or are these words too harsh and it is all fair game in the real world if you have vested interest?
May 4th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Yeah too right Joshua, You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Looks like Joye has come up with statistics to prove that some statistics are wrong and some are right (the ones confirming his position of course), funny that.
May 4th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Hi Steve,
Excellent Debtwatch 34. The contribution to activity (GDP) by debt inflation is a key theory that as you rightly suggest has been woefully misunderstood by the ‘Neo’s’.
I have one simplistic query however. What proportion of the debt formation do you think represents transfer payments like asset purchases which I don’t believe count as GDP? ie. for each additional $1 added to private debt, roughly what is the breakdown between consumption and asset purchases, to put it simply?
Keep up the excellent work
May 4th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Hi Joshua, too right!! we are dealing with ‘morality’(or rather lack of) and there ain’t too much around with these guys!! too much to protect!
One day we might though!It is now getting too stupid with these commentators who, I wish one day,they will lose the credibility (and job)they are trying to foster (and 15 minutes of fame!).
May 4th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
I’m gonna pick a fight with Mike Tyson . . . . . I’m CONFIDENT I can beat him with my neoclassical fighting style!!!
May 4th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
I think ‘animal spirits’ and ‘confidence’ are just gimmicks to fool Joe Public. A great excuse is to just blame the public themselves…, why if you’d just have ‘confidence’ and maybe spend some more, then you’d be off the unemployment lines. Really.
We the people are silly, but not downright stupid. When we borrowed writ large to ‘invest’ in housing or stocks, we did it thinking we’d get rich. Ditto for those NINJA sub-primers in the states. The main reason we got it wrong was as Hayek says, inflation corrupts that key element of any economy, price signals. With freely printed money and low rates pumping up property prices, Joe Public and banks all were fooled into dumb investments.
To say now we lack confidence, is to say now that we can see that housing is a dumb investment. Joe Public can also see that unemployment can go up, and that paying of mountains of debt without a job is a tough ask. Confidence has nothing to do with it. Confidence is one of those stupid morphing words like ‘change’, ‘equality’, ‘reconciliation’ in which the users get to decide the meaning.
So what does Glen Stevens mean when he says ‘confidence’. ‘The public has worked out that debt isn’t a good idea, that houses don’t always go up, that having a job and some savings is essential, that politicians and central banker tell fibs.’
Check http://www.business-cycle-monitor.com/business-cycle-theory-slideshows
May 4th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
Confidence is a word, (“Words can mean whatever you want them to mean” Alice in Wonderland) It can be an abdication of conciousness. It can be agued both ways “I am absolutely confident that the Gobal Economic Crisis is just begining”.
“I am confident that all the past is over and that there is a new beginning” gloomly as it may seem and as unecessary as it was it is what it is.I am thankful for the realism placed before me by Steve for it is a truth.Let’s hope that people recognise that we can build from these mistakes and like Fisher who admitted his, and Keanes who recoginsed the value in a “mixed” economy who pro capitalists called socialism and Munsky, who developed the value in the theory of equalibrium being not one of self correction but rather one of constant monotoring.
Steve, I hope that all your work does not only correct this financial mess but sets a new financial model for future generations.
May 4th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Hey Steve!!
How about addressing my point above (first and second comments to this post). The US government is already in for 12 trillion. Likely they will double or triple that amount in the next year or two. Won’t 30 or 40 trillion go a long way towards stopping deflation?
May 4th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Sometimes it is what is hidden that is more important when examining dynamic systems.
Dark matter/energy makes up 96% of the universe and cannot be directly observed but simple gravitational computations confirm that its effect far outweighs visible matter/energy.
The ABS released the Housing Price Index showing an annual fall of 6.7% in house prices – the figure everyone is talking about. http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6416.0?OpenDocument
However, we really need to look at House prices in real terms (after adjusting for inflation). The RBA weighted median CPI for the same period was 4.4%. Therefore the “Real Fall” in house prices was actually 11.1% – yep double digit falling house prices.
At current rates of real decline we should reach Steve’s prediction of 40% by September 2011.
Of course that won’t happen because of all these green shoots of economic recovery everyone is talking about. Well – I had a look at the base of all these green shoots and I can tell you the economy is rooted (pardon the French).
Hey Gloomy!!
I suggest you read Steve’s Roving Cavaliers of Credit which fully explains why deflation will trump Government stimulus.
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/
May 4th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
I have 2 questions to Steve (I am sorry if they are a bit naive but my brain doesn’t work well on Mondays)
1. My hypothesis is that if the RBA guys and the government weren’t confident about the cure they wouldn’t risk much more serious consequences of a broken trust should the therapy fail.
Has TRYM (or something similar) been used to calibrate the stimulus packages on Australia? It looks to me that the model has been designed as a set of dampened oscillators bouncing around “equilibriums”. We no longer care what pushed the system away from the initial state of equilibrium (trolls?) but once it happened it should be possible to push it back and speed up the recovery process. So the reasoning of the RBA guys might be that if they inject enough money and lower the interest rates and maybe patch a few more holes the system will soon go back to the “normal” state. Knowing response of the model to an external test stimulus one can estimate how big the real stimulus needs to be.
Once the medicine is applied in the right dose the only other thing required to cure the malaise is to wait and to increase the “confidence” – for example to massage the sore back of reality. Otherwise serious complications like a cardiac arrest of banks may occur again.
2. If this doesn’t work what about trying even harder? Trying to hack the system. In your publications you mentioned that the deleveraging phase ends when debt is reduced to a sustainable level with or without the government help. Maybe this is not the goal of the Masters of the Universe. What if the goal is simply to get away from the deflation regardless of what happens next?
I had a go at the time horizon of business decisions of companies a few days ago, I wouldn’t be surprised if Western governments have a time horizon roughly equal to the length of the elections cycle.
If we take the more realistic Minskian model running through the slump phase and try applying an external stimulus, wouldn’t it be enough to over-compensate for the negative flow of money from deleveraging for a relatively short period of time to push the system back into the “growing bubble” phase? Look people can invest in stocks and they are growing!
I have no chance to run your model on my own but I wouldn’t be surprised that a low-intensity stimulus wouldn’t make any difference while a stimulus of high intensity (a high artificial money flow for a while – a year?) could flip it back for a while to a different state (we can call it a Ponzi expansion).
In the microscale the process of deleveraging is described in your post as a “chain reaction”. I wouldn’t dwell on experiences from Chernobyl but one may try to fiddle with the control rods to start a different type of reaction …
May 5th, 2009 at 12:06 am
I have no confidence in our business and political leaders. I especially have no confidence in the wisdom and acumen of the Australian public.
May 5th, 2009 at 12:37 am
Governments largely depend on their public service departments where senior bureaucrats rise in the ranks through political manouvres and not through merit (Peter principle). Their incompetence is seen repeatedly, but only through completely collapses. They are masters of cover-ups, obfuscations and spin. Corruption is so common that it is even seen to be normal and accepted in U.S. It is OK to be working part-time for the private sector, being paid millions or be captured by the private sector and still be in senior executive government positions.
After preventing derivatives from being regulated in 1999 to provide “regulatory certainty” for a lucrative industry:
http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/reports/otcact.pdf
Larry Summers got paid, rather than having to pay, to be educated about derivatives:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/06/business/06summers.html
It is OK to have regular private lunches (without other senior officials) with CEOs and directors of major investment banks when you are the secretary of the treasury, dealing out trillions of taxpayer’s money:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/business/27geithner.html?pagewanted=all
As Joseph Stiglitz (and others such as Nassim Taleb) said recently, whatever the solution to the GFC is, it should not benefit those who caused it in the first place. It is so simple and obvious that only corruption can fail to see this. While corruption is in charge in the system, recovery will be longer and slower in coming than it needs to be.
Governments and their lackeys are run by confidence men or con man for short. They want us to be confident and to loosen up, particularly our purse strings. They want to con us out of our savings to make their backers, the rich, even richer, which has been
happening for the past few decades. If Steve is right, then there is a limit as to far they could con us. People, including households and businesses, who have suffered from borrowing too much, are more likely to pay down debt (higher saving rates) rather than borrow more in a hurry, however cheap borrowing is. Bernanke and even Fisher assumed that because reckless printing of money was not tried in the Great Depression that that was what would have prevented it! If I understand Steve correctly with the velocity of circulation falling, the amount of currency to replace debt retrenchment could be enormous, which may need to be more than double every year (?). Would they be so silly? I’m buying a few more gold coins just in case.
May 5th, 2009 at 1:58 am
antal fekete has done some very good work on debt levels that are too high and the investment implications thereof. his website is http://www.professorfekete.com
May 5th, 2009 at 2:08 am
Here is another great website that demonstrates this debt deflation cycle is just another one in a long series of such cycles that are endogenous to the capitalistic system. The author has been on this debt deflation crisis since the mid/late 1990s and penned an excellent piece on it in mid 2007.
His framework is of course that of Kondratiev cycles on which the neo-classical gang always poured scorn because it implied that their ilk weren’t in total charge of the economy. clearly it dovetails with Steve’s work on credit creation also as a endogenous function of the cycle. its definitely worth a read especially for investment implications and for putting this event in an historical context.
http://www.longwavegroup.com/pdf/08_01_07_News.pdf
May 5th, 2009 at 3:33 am
Hi Steve,
Do you account for accrued interest contributing to the change in debt? It seems to me that this might actually work against demand since consumers’ future earnings would have to go towards paying interest rather than purchasing goods.
While this is probably merely a matter of magnitude rather than net effect (on deflation or unemployment), I don’t think it should be overlooked or assumed out of the equation.
I was thinking the same thing when reading “Roving Cavaliers of Credit” regarding total debt as money supply. Only the initial loan amount should be considered new money, and accrued interest is a liability to the borrower but does not increase his purchasing power.
I suppose you could say that unpaid interest is purchasing power for the borrower, since avoiding an interest payment means spending that money elsewhere. Likewise, you could say that the bank is extending a larger line of credit, thus creating more money, by allowing the interest to accrue. Is this how you see it?
Over the last few months I’ve been reading up on the Austrian School and recently came across your site. It’s interesting that your models and data show many of the same results that the Austrians predict. While I still lean more towards the Austrians, it is refreshing to see a different plausible viewpoint. As an engineer, I like to see mathematical approaches to problems, although I am still skeptical of using aggregate statistics to describe highly complex systems.
My gut feeling on deflation is that it’s somewhere between Fisher and the Austrians. Fisher (as described here) ignores the role of asset reallocation through bankruptcies. This allows more solvent businesses and new entrepreneurs to grab these real assets at fire sale prices and re-employ them in new production.
However, Austrians probably underestimate the effects of widespread deflation “overshooting” and taking down otherwise solvent businesses in addition to unsound or “malinvested” ones. This is a dynamic effect – ramping up new production with these new assets will lag the effects of deflation. This notion agrees with the lag in employment recovery as you have shown.
My guess is that Austrians would deem any business that fails during the crash as one that was malinvested or unprepared, which keeps their argument intact. But this implies either that businesses either must always hold cash in anticipation of a crash, or must be able to predict the crash and start saving accordingly in order to be viable. Maybe this is true…
I understand your proposed solution (based on your FIH paper) to be essentially “tax the boom, print out of the bust”. I disagree with this primarily because of government incompetence – they would never get it right – but also because it gives them a purely economic justification to tax and inflate. This means constantly increasing government coffers and constantly decreasing consumer wallets.
I see this as forced saving during the boom and forced spending during the bust, with all of the money and decision making in the hands of government. This screams inevitable waste and corruption.
I think an Austrian hard money, 100% reserves solution could have the same effect, since interest rates would be high during the boom, encouraging saving, and low during the bust, encouraging spending. However, in this case the money stays in the consumers’ control, giving them more power to set the market’s direction. This sounds much less scary to me.
I think that this would be easier to enforce than an active monetary and taxation policy. I also think that truly free banking could achieve higher reserve ratios than government protected central banks, although it would take a few busts for depositors to demand higher reserve ratios.
(note – re:”cavaliers”, my take on it is that the fed’s actions allow banks to ignore reserve ratios through the process you have described, which essentially makes credit creation limitless. This shouldn’t happen to the same extent in a competitive hard money system, although some inflation/deflation cycles could still occur)
As for asset speculation, I don’t know how you could possibly contain it, other than by limiting leveraged buying. Again, I think this would be harder to enforce – how can you guarantee that business owners won’t use some of their loan to speculate on assets? I guess you could use all that “boom tax” revenue to hire an army of auditors…
I’m also curious to hear your thoughts on the current US Treasury Bond bubble. I see this as the primary driver towards USD hyperinflation and the next stock market crash.
I apologize if I have misrepresented any of your views here!
May 5th, 2009 at 5:50 am
Steve,
Great analysis as always, but I have a few questions:
1. Am I reading the implication correctly that your Great Depression correlation analysis (debt contribution to demand, unemployment) doesn’t include the contribution of change in public debt? If not, why do you believe it’s not relevant?
2. If public debt’s contribution was not included, how much does the 85% correlation change if you do include it?
3. What would the correlation look like for Japan’s experience, with or without change in public debt included? (I know you have previously discussed the smaller scale of Japan’s starting debt). It seems unemployment there only rose from 2% to 5% during private sector deleveraging. Of course I recognize their economy and public debt levels are not exactly healthy now, but it seems like an important second example given the attempts by government to follow this path over the GD’s.
May 5th, 2009 at 8:41 am
The mainstream media is starting to get the joke about household debt in Australia, but its a shame that good articles dont make there way to the front pages…
http://www.moneymanager.com.au/articles/2009/04/27/1240684397983.html
May 5th, 2009 at 9:13 am
One thing that has to be remembered is that there is a huge difference between internal and external debt.
External debt requires foreign currency to be earned to pay interest and principle. If this is insufficient, as in the case of Australia, and you need to import essentials (such as oil) then you finally get to a point where demand for imports has to be reduced.
Now there are various ways to do this (rationing for one, tariffs, import controls, etc) but under the current global model there is only one way … slow the economy even more.
So external debt adds another layer of risk to an economy. If there is a ‘loss of confidence’ by external lenders, or just a foreign credit shortage (as now), then running out of foreign currency is a real possibility, as is a run on the $AUS.
With a chronic currrent account deficit (trade plus financial movements), little foreign currency reserves (only $40B when I last looked), an increasing systemic trade deficit (running out oil, rapidly rising population, declining agricutural surplus for export, decline of export/import replacment industries), then Australia is not well placed.
Plus if you add in huge rollovers of bank and corporate debt coming up soon, much of which is denominated in foreign currency, then a really ugly picture begins to appear.
Translated “hello IMF”.
Anyone for 8%+ interest rates in the next 12 months?
May 5th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Gee Steve, you are such a square. Didn’t you know this is a Mary Poppins movie and that we can dance our way out of trouble?
Just ask Kochie!
http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/b/sunrise/25040/do-you-reject-our-recession-dancers
Put on your dancing shoes everyone! I feel a bit of confidence coming back!
May 5th, 2009 at 10:20 am
After reading this latest excellent post by Steve I imagined Glenn Stevens walking to the podium to make his speech and being accompanied by the theme music from ‘The Sting’. Now when ever I see these ‘confidence men’ the tune just comes straight to mind.
May 5th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Hi Clive, agree! which brings me to ‘confidence men’! In this world of ‘confidence media men’ and like wise confidence economics ‘fellow travellers’, who can we trust in the ‘fabric’ that is supposed to be ‘the truth’ (other than Dr Keen of course)the media has so far, so distorted and scrambled the minds of the ossie public that finding ‘un distorted’ facts in the ’stats world’(in ‘oz’) for people like me (non economists)is very difficult indeed!
May 5th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Outstanding post again, Steve, thanks, and a great comments thread.
Joe B and others present perspectives from the different avenues of thought and it occurs to me that you need a name for your general thesis.
Two suggestions:
a) Keensian economic principles
b) The Australian School
May 5th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Okay so i reckon this is a doozy. This proves all the worry is unfounded, and the recession is due to end very soon
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25431940-31037,00.html
Im now going to head out an purchase some houses, becasue prices are going to skyrocket, and i will be going out to borrow half a mill from my local bank to purchase shares. Its all up from here. Good times are back
May 5th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Gordon, spot on! now what we desperately need is a ‘Keen-ism’ “study in economics” place(s) at some of our unis. for potential and worthy economists of the future to lead Australia in the coming decades,funded by……..the federal government,following the disappointing performance of the reserve bank in not predicting the recession and it’s long term damage to the Australian people (unemployment) and the economy in general!!
May 5th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Yeah the recession is ending. Thanks to those green shoots all started with Citigroup reporting a profit!
I cant believe it but people are falling for the jibe and they expect the economy to turn around based on this?
I don’t talk about this anymore even with my close relatives let alone friends because I’m tired of hearing there is something truly exceptional about Australia..we cant place our
fingers on it but it exist!….This recession will end once the US fixes itself.
Fits well with this Thread!
BTB I agree with you the bear market rally has caused a lot of people to be bullish which will make it look like Keens predictions would become extremely hard to realize when it is actually unfolding.
May 5th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Joe B,
“I also think that truly free banking could achieve higher reserve ratios than government protected central banks, although it would take a few busts for depositors to demand higher reserve ratios.”
All looks good as an abstract model but it is completly utopian.
If you allow firms, corporations or banks to do whatever they want and only be censored by free customers – the winners will be Ponzi pyramids.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_unrest_in_Albania
You may say that I misunderstood it completly and this was pure anarchy not the ultimate liberalism and it is all about imposing strict rules? If you impose strict government control we are back to the current model. If you want to impose rule of law using vigilantes then we have Taleban.
Has anyone ever seen a practical proof that a pure free market system works? Has it ever been tried or implemented anywhere?
The Austrian philosphy is great for software agents simulating rational behaviour running on a computer but has nothing to do with real people who are not rational.
May 5th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Good post. Glad to have found the site.
One question I had was that the debt levels in the post refer to private debt – will we simply see government debt replace private debt as the source of debt-financed demand? And what are the implications of this, especially with the structural problems in the Australian budget that were masked by the boom?
Also, a question on the same track that I have been mulling over is that the crisis has prompted an almost universal, worldwide response of fiscal stimulus and monetary easing. Is this the correct response? What are some of the key risks in this policy? (I can see heaps!)
May 5th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Thankyou Steve, for your economic analysis.
You have helped me understand what unfortunately drives so many parts of my life.
I feel like I am standing on the tracks which are buckled up a small distance ahead watching as a train heads towards me. No where to run to and my only chance is to not get caught underneath as it derails.
In 2001 I thought that credit and house prices where going crazy. How wrong could I be! I knew people who had borrowed big for housing and I was sure they where in trouble…..but a rising market saved them.
Fast forward to 2006/7 and I had a Citibank ‘investment advisor’ call me offering advice on investment products (very convincing) with bold claims of big returns! Lucky for me that I still had that niggling doubt about crazy credit otherwise I might now be the owner of who knows what sort of xxx bond security …
Then I came across ‘deeper in debt’ a very interesting read – but hard to get anyone else interested in it – I guess no one likes hearing that there might be a problem with their source of wealth:?
Looking forward to more Debtwatch reports…
Great work Steve.