I met with Yves Smith of Naked Capitalism on the weekend, at a superb Japanese restaurant that only New York locals could find (and I’ll keep its location quiet for their benefit–too much publicity could spoil a spectacular thing). Yves was kind enough to post details of my latest academic paper at her site in a post she entitled “Steve Keen’s scary Minsky model“.
Yves found the model scary, not because it revealed anything about the economy that she didn’t already know, but because it so easily reproduced the Ponzi features of the economy she knows so well.
I have yet to attempt to fit the model to data–and given its nonlinearity, that won’t be easy–but its qualitative behavior is very close to what we’ve experienced. As in the real world, a series of booms and busts give the superficial appearance of an economy entering a “Great Moderation”–just before it collapses.


The motive force driving the crash is the ratio of debt to GDP–a key feature of the real world that the mainstream economists who dominate the world’s academic university departments, Central Banks and Treasuries ignore. In the model, as in the real world, this ratio rises in a boom as businesses take on debt to finance investment and speculation, and then falls in a slump when things don’t work out in line with the euphoric expectations that developed during the boom. Cash flows during the slump don’t allow borrowers to reduce the debt to GDP ratio to the pre-boom level, but the period of relative stability after the crisis leads to expectations–and debt–taking off once more.


Ultimately, such an extreme level of debt is accumulated that debt servicing exceeds available cash flows, and a permanent slump ensues–a Depression.
There are 4 behavioural functions in the model that mimic the behaviour of the major private actors in the economy–workers, capitalists and bankers. Workers wage rises are related to the level of employment and the rate of inflation; capitalists investment and debt repayment plans are related to the rate of profit; and the willingness of banks to lend is also a function of the rate of profit.



The model is explicitly monetary–with bank accounts for workers, bankers and capitalists–and the crisis is marked by a collapse in deposits and a rise in inactive bank reserves.


The same phenomenon is evident in the data, though the sharpness of the turnaround is far greater than can be replicated by the smooth functions in my model.
There’s a lot more work to do before the model is complete–notably including the impact of a goverment sector that can add its own spending power to a depressed economy–but its basic features fulfil Minsky’s challenge:
Can “It”-a Great Depression-happen again? And if “It” can happen, why didn’t “It” occur in the [first 35] years since World War II? These are questions that naturally follow from both the historical record and the comparative success of the past thirty-five years. To answer these questions it is necessary to have an economic the¬ory which makes great depressions one of the possible states in which our type of capitalist economy can find itself.
This is the first economic model ever that meets Minsky’s standards for realism. Its final stage emphasises a message that Michael Hudson, one of the very few others to see this crisis coming, puts very simply: “Debts that can’t be repaid, won’t be repaid”. As Americans now seem to be realising, the financial crisis has not gone away, because the debt that caused it is still there.
Having got ourselves into a debt-induced economic crisis, the only permanent way out is to reduce the debt–either directly by abolishing large slabs of it, or indirectly by inflating it away. I have very little confidence in the ability of the Federal Reserve to do the latter, while the former will take a level of political fortitude that is far beyond our current politicians.






July 7th, 2010 at 9:32 am
Hi Steve,
Any chance you’ll make it onto CNBC or some other NYC based show while you’re there?
CNBC used to ONLY run Jim Rogers on their overnight show. Then suddenly he was “respectable” enough to be seen in the daytime. And yes, he’s still talking global depression/buy commodities now.
So if he can do that, why the hell can’t they allow you on as well? Yeah I know. Corporate politics….
July 7th, 2010 at 9:55 am
Steve,
I would be really interested to see your US unemployement and inflation chart above shown with the CPI data from shadow stats, which is a group that believe the actual CPI is much higher than reported in the 2000′s due to changes in calculations. They show inflation near 10% around 2006 which would make your models predictions even closer to what has happened.
See there work at
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts
Ben
July 7th, 2010 at 11:34 am
“Debts that can’t be repaid, won’t be repaid”
This phrase keeps popping up on this site. I think this statement is incomplete. A better one would be:
“Debts that can’t be repaid, won’t be repaid by the borrower”
Or an even longer version:
“Debts that can’t be repaid, won’t be repaid by the borrower. It will be repaid by somebody else.”
Or an even longer version:
“Debts that can’t be repaid, won’t be repaid by the borrower who enjoyed the benefits of whatever was acquired with the loaned funds. It will be repaid by somebody else who will demand something in exchange for that payment.”
The accounting reality is that debt ALWAYS gets paid. Even in a simplest case when you give a mate $100 and he says he is not paying you back – you either carry the debt pretending that it will be paid or you take another $100 from your left pocket and put it in your right pocket, paying off the debt.
In the case of the bank lending a debt written off reduces the banks profits and effectively is paid off by the shareholders (via reduced dividents), bank employees (by reduced salaries and bonuses) and the government (by reduced profit tax).
If the bad debts are so high that the bank needs to be closed then these debts are payed off by the depositors and bondholders, unless the bank is insured and/or guaranteed by the government, in which case the debt is paid of by the insurer/government.
If the bad debt losses are systematic and high enough to bankrupt the government then they are payed off by everyone expecting income or services from that government.
I guess what I am trying to say is that you cant just wade a magic wand and make debt disappear. Any solution to the debt problem will have to mention who will pay off these debts.
July 7th, 2010 at 11:53 am
Watching that red fool David Harvey talk about Crises of Capitalism, one point Harvey made that particularly caught my attention was his statement that capitalism never really solves problems, it merely moves them around. So how could the debt problem be moved around other than by repudiation or inflation?
July 7th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Guillaume Lebleu, searchtempo. searchtempo said: Naked Capitalism and My Scary Minsky Model: I met with Yves Smith of Naked Capitalism on the weekend, at a superb … http://bit.ly/b2Hi4f [...]
July 7th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
vk,
I believe Steve is right. The free lunch has been eaten and it will not be returned even if assets are to be repossessed. I am talking about the real (goods and services) aspect – not the nominal (financial) one.
Accounting rules are not violated as equity gets hammered when bad debt is written off. This simply means that somebody loses an opportunity to consume in the future at the cost of the debtor. But this doesn’t mean that the debt is “repaid”.
The same applies to the scenario when the debt is taken over by the government on the balance sheet of the central bank. Government is not financed by taxes and its debt is not real debt. Taxes are required to remove the excess liquidity and redistribute real income. Interests rate on the public debt can be controlled by the central bank at the wish.
Since public debt will in principle never be repaid this only means that somebody got away in getting a free lunch.
Inflating away private debt is a different issue as it involves resizing flows compared with stocks.
Chartalistst claim that it is enough to compensate the gap in the aggregate demand caused by debt deleveraging.
However:
“Economists like Krugman and Mankiw argue that the government could (should) reduce the ratio by inflating it away. Noting that nominal GDP is the product of the price level (P) and real output (Y), the inflating story just increases the nominal value of output and so the denominator of the public debt ratio grows faster than the numerator.
But stimulating real growth (that is, in Y) is the other more constructive way of achieving the same relative adjustment in the denominator of the public debt ratio and its numerator.”
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=10490&cpage=1
I fully agree with Steve that the West is doomed as they are unable to fill the gap aggregate demand. MMT is and will be rejected because its implementation would deny further free lunches to the holders of financial assets as interest rate must be close to zero in the MMT world. ZIRP would require changing the taxation policy to prevent further bubbles and this would hurt the FIRE industry parasites. The level of stimulation provided (even in the US) will not be sufficient and the real productive capacities will shrink.
I have already mentioned this link on the comment on the Bill’s blog:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-01/how-to-make-an-american-job-before-it-s-too-late-andy-grove.html
At the same time China is immune to the defaltionary debt deleveraging sickness caused by the bursting housing bubble as their government (precisely the CCP) faces no opposition in deficit spending and they seem to follow the recommendations of MMT. They may face other serious problems but not this one.
They just don’t want to talk about this too much (in English of course …).
“China will pump USD100bln into Western provinces in 2011 for infrastructure projects”
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http://wyborcza.biz/biznes/1,100896,8105090,Chiny_wpompuja_100_mld_dol__w_zachodnie_prowincje.html&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com.au&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhhRU9p6FfzaemPlZMOU0krtvnhr7w
July 7th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
Why has this not happened ?
As always with economics they exist in isolation – model explicitly leave out most of what matters and include only what can be modelled – the most excellent work of Reinert
http://www.amazon.com/How-Rich-Countries-Poor-Stay/dp/0786718420
explains the externalities well. What can also be taken from this is the debt creation process targeted at developing which fuels the western growth. Hence unsustainable levels of debt are simply offset through the third world debt problem, and of course the acquisition of resources and imbalanced exploitation of markets.
The emergence of China as a consumer economy ( as opposed to export) pushed it almost explosively in a reactionary manner to becoming a western model of debt based growth.
So now the third world debt / resource / market river is drying up, the transition of China to consumer (meaning an inflated yuan and less exports for western based economies which own the chinese manufactured goods) means we are facing not only the current build up of western debt post world war II but also the drying up of the third world debt river.
Finally another NON-economic consideration Steve – the process of globalisation has been one of increased power and protection for businesses within international institutions – while at the same time a gradual degradation of the workers power (wage earning) through the globalisation of wages without any form of similar protection afforded to corporations (global enforceable IP rights for corporates have not been reflected with global minimum wages for workers) – hence a global wage destruction is under-way creating a level playing field for workers while institutionalising corporate trade imbalances). The upshot of this is a modest rise in wages for the poor in China / India etc, while the wages of the west are decimated. The aggregate is a global destruction in consumer power through wage destruction.
The last wall against this is government welfare – which through new austerity measures introduced via the G20 mean that even these will now be decimated meaning a global crash in the base level of consumer wealth through a shift to corporate wealth creation via global wage destruction.
In order to fight this the natural response – as already indicated by austerity measures, will be to continue to push down the wages and welfare of workers in order to create demand for products and resources (the price of which may well stay high through speculation as corporate funds seek out returns via speculation) creating an negative wage spiral which continues to destroy consumer buying power and demand, which is repeatedly met with lower wages in an effort to drive down prices and drive up demand as resource prices remain high.
There is more to economics – than economics Steve. Lots, lots more.
Factor this into your equation – Iran is going to be placed under a naval blockade which has already commenced with refuelling embargoes and the arrival of the biggest armada in the gulf post world war II with three aircraft strike groups – etc, etc. The consequence are going to be a massive spike in oil prices, driving up global production costs – again mimicking the wage spiral as prices spike but demand falls.
My point to all of this is you were utterly wrong about house prices and walked – why ? Because you are an economist and even if you have seen the errors in classical economics you still do not understand that economics is fundamentally based on ignoring most of the facts – like a FHOG.
My area is International Relations and contemporary political theory – hence economics is merely a subset of my view of what will happen to markets and finances and is vastly more liable to in fact be a passive recipient of global non-economic factors than the cause of them.
Food for thought – and read that book.
July 7th, 2010 at 1:56 pm
ak,
“MMT is and will be rejected because its implementation would deny further free lunches to the holders of financial assets”
I’d say I hope MMT won’t be adopted because it will only make the problems worse and push us even closer to a centrally planned economy.
I’ll be doing everything I can to see it rejected.
July 7th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
vk, You seem to assert a claim after the fact of debt creation which I find dubious. Banks created money and then lent money and, in the process, established a set of property claims. Someone legally owed money and someone thought they had future wealth because money was created which entitled them to a claim on repayed debt with interest. Who are the folks that were in a position to benefit from the financial system’s money/debt creation? Who are the folks who took advantage (or were taken advantage of) of the financial system’s offer of money/debt? Writing down debt and losing wealth due to ending contracts effected under a dubious legal guise hardly merits noting that “debt ALWAYS gets paid.” Unwinding a transaction that never should have happened in the first place is not a loss or gain. Where I believe the real loss occurs is at the macro level with all the activity in the real economy which took real physical resources and therefore incurred real costs. Now we are stuck with boat loads of big homes in the far out suburbs which we will pay for in the coming decades.
July 7th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Steve,
I think the statement that real world economists ignore debt/GDP is not a fair statement, certainly agree that it is ignored by some, but most simply have a different interpretation to yourself.
In saying that, I do think what you are modelling is qualitatively accurate. However, how do you quantitatively gauge the level at which the debt/GDP causes a depression for individual economies. Personally I don’t think using figures from the latest depression is accurate enough to make reliable forecasts. For example if you look at the Australia v USD comparison, it does look like we have some ways to go, and even the USD levels and recent deleveraging have caused a depression yet.
Furthermore, my interpretation of the model results is that most of the time the economy is actually growing but is unstable. If you took any random point in time, it is most likely that you would observe growth at that time. So to me I don’t see a direct connection between the model and a depression is imminent outlook. I do believe that anything is possible and as predicted by your model we will have debt/GDP growth causing eventual depression but there are many other indicators not included in the model that give a more reliable signal that this is imminent in the short term.
July 7th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
ned,
Without active fiscal policy and elements of central planning (what is not the same as command economy, abolished in the 1980-ties) a mild recession seems to be a disaster for the strongest, richest and most sophisticated empire ever built by apes calling themself “Homines sapientes” on Planet Earth. Over 40 mln people receive food stamps in the US.
We have “invented” that global financial system. It is not natural.
The “pure free market” system has absolutely no chance to adjust to diminishing natural resources and possibly significant climate change as there is no such thing as the common interest there.
This system based on absolute property rights, brainwashing of “consumers”, debt peonage and greed is also inherently unstable on its own what has been shown by Steve.
It looks that the Chinese are investing in the research and productive capacities so that they will be ready in time to face objective problems even if some resource misallocation is inevitable.
The West is building marketing, income redistribution and consumption capacities. This “freedom of choice” will help everyone for sure.
Let’s wait and see which social model wins the next round and the whole game. I am happy that you want to participate in this experiment. I prefer to be an observer and my exposure to the effects of the imminent failure of the Western model is limited.
July 7th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
@9 Chuck
“You seem to assert a claim after the fact of debt creation which I find dubious.”
I just stated the accounting fact that “debt ALWAYS gets paid”, without trying to enter into moral debate about what is right, what is wrong and who has been taken advantage of.
“Writing down debt and losing wealth due to ending contracts effected under a dubious legal guise hardly merits noting that “debt ALWAYS gets paid.”"
We may have to agree to disagree. The phrase “writing down debt” would leave most readers with the impression that we had a magic wand that made the debt disappear. In reality though written down debt is actually paid off from the bank’s profits (and possibly – by the depositors and/or the taxpayer) and I still think this detail merits noting.
“Unwinding a transaction that never should have happened in the first place is not a loss or gain”
This is true only if you reverse the transaction by taking the funds from the borrower and clearing the loan. If you take the funds from somebody else then it is a loss to that somebody else and a gain to the borrower (although the borrower might not feel it like a gain).
I agree with the rest of your post.
July 7th, 2010 at 7:17 pm
Via The Business Spectator
CBA exec warns of higher credit costs
Published 7:41 AM, 7 Jul 2010 Last update 7:41 AM, 7 Jul 2010
Commonwealth Bank of Australia Ltd chief financial officer David Craig has warned growing wholesale funding costs are likely to see banks increase lending rates faster than Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) rate hikes, the Australian Financial Review reports.
Mr Craig declined to say if CBA would raise rates separately from the RBA within the the next year, but said European debt problems were pushing up the total wholesale cost of funding by up to 0.02 percentage points a month.
New funding costs had risen by 0.20 to 0.80 percentage points in the past two months, he said, according to the AFR.
Southern Cross Equities analyst TS Lim told the AFR it was “inevitable” that the major banks would introduce extra-cyclical rate rises over the next year.
Yesterday, the Reserve Bank kept its cash rate on hold at 4.5 per cent for the second consecutive month.
July 7th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
Steve,
“the former will take a level of political fortitude that is far beyond our current politicians”
Far beyond them? Not too far beyond Slasher Osborne, it isn’t. And he is only just beginning. The cuts he and his henchman, Alexander, are contending they will implement will be greater than those imposed by Thatcher and greater than any since WW2.
I don’t consider this fortitude. I consider it inhumane, poosibly insane (in a non-technical sense). An inflationary policy is what is beyond the current crop of politicians. Insane and idiotic policies have always been within their grasp.
The most fundamental criticism of Osborne’s budget is that it isn’t fairly distributed, contrary to the many claims. There are reasons that I go into on my blog (rescipe.wordpress.com) that I will not bore your readers with here but the budget is intended to be unfairly distributed. To be otherwise would be to be truly, and deeply, radical. That degree of imaginative reach is, indeed, far beyond Osborne and many of the rest of the current crop of politicians.
July 7th, 2010 at 7:42 pm
Steve, are you against all kinds of counterfactual explanations or only the bad ones?
July 7th, 2010 at 7:44 pm
Steve, the absolute inability to come to a workable solution to this problem astounds me. I agree with Hudson, as one thing I do know is that it isn’t our right to sell the future of mankind into debt bondage. This would result in feudalism returning to the vast majority of world societies. I post many sites and one of my themes is that everyone is going to get a haircut. The politicians are owned by the banks and elected by the people. The great truth is most pension funds as they are funded are cooked. Not only that, but there are some very rich people that won’t be very rich when this is done. Namely people who hold leveraged real estate, stocks and other assets sold on mulitiples or leveraged financed. There cannot be a reduction in the level of retirement without some corresponding reduction in the level of prices. The trap is widespread and should there not be debts behind so much of what goes on, losses could be taken and then the world run on a lower price level.
I wish I could understand the math behind your models. The world needs a self liquidating debt system, but that would exclude the vast majority of consumer credit and most mortgage debt as well, due to the fact that mortgage debt expansion leaves debt to be rolled over and over again. Also, excess interest earned by the money creators come from money that doesn’t exist, thus bankers can’t make more than a basic excess of money or the money must be left in the banking system and exposed to loss.
I agree there really isn’t a fractional reserve banking system and hasn’t been for years. The banking system is more a system of the banks being guarantors of funds created for their customers. If the banks lose their capital, regardless of how much money is repaid them, they no longer can be lawful guarantors, as they are operating in fraud if they charge a fee to guarantee anything without the means to do so.
Unfortunately, a politician has little power if he loses his cronies. Another politician with cronies then has the funds to defeat the representative of the fallen cronies. Unfortunately, the banking powers started immediately in destroying the structure of the US government some 200 years ago so that influence could be peddled. The banking monopoly and greed has put us at the fork in the road one more time.
July 7th, 2010 at 9:30 pm
Re my first post, I neglected to mention that there is a third way, as it were, and Osborne has for various reasons decided that what failed to work in the past will somehow work this time. As his Plan A (does he have a Plan B? is neither fair nor necessary, one can well ask why this particular path has been selected. Your good bank-bad bank scenario was never a serious option, though it could well have averted what will probably become a catastrophe for the less well off.
July 7th, 2010 at 10:03 pm
Hi dukeofurl,
The reforms I was considering involve taking on the financial sector, not welfare recipients and lowly paid workers. Today’s governments are fully capable of the latter, which I agree are inhumane and insane policies.
July 7th, 2010 at 11:02 pm
Hi Steve,
We are then in complete agreement. And it appears that Martin Wolf is also on our side. Indeed, sanity is on our side. But no one budges.
Wolf does not I think take the policial economic vested interest perspective I do, so my take on motives may be darker than his.
It will probably take a catastrophe of armageddon-like proportions for politicians to take on the banks. I don’t know whether to vote for this or not.
July 7th, 2010 at 11:31 pm
@vk, if I work and save $1000 and lend it to my buddy, and he defaults, does not pay me back, to me that money is gone, it is never repaid to me by anyone. My buddy went to the track with it, bought food, bought beer, started a now failed business with it, wherever that money went, it was not of my choosing or for my consuming, so the debt is not repaid because the money does not come back to me.
But want is most likely, as in the case of US, if I had lent my buddy $200,000 for a house and now that house is only worth $100k and my buddy has lost his job, I will get no loan payments from my buddy and the house securing the loan, the most I can get $100k. So, I have lost $100k, it is gone, unpaid dues to me, $100k less for my retirement, $100k less to spend on vacations, cars, whatever. But worse yet, like if he had gone to the casino with it, the money is also gone for my buddy, he will have no house, nothing to show for it. When debt is used to buy a deflating asset or to pull forward demand that incomes will later not be able to support, or both, the wealth goes away when debt is defaulted. As South Park says: “..and its gone”
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/222624
Someone does gain tho, it is the person that buys the house my buddy defaulted on, and gets it for half the cost of a few years ago, but that person’s gain, say, in disposable income after making mortgage payment, is not my gain, I am not repaid.
So yes, someone will lose money when debt defaults, but repaid means the person that owns the loan, owns the bond, gets the currency back that they lent…and no, if the asset prices and incomes/earnings go down, the loans and bonds will not be repaid.
July 8th, 2010 at 12:02 am
A great post.
I am, however, interested in the question of Hyman Minsky’s Keynesianism. For anyone interested, I have a post about it here:
http://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogspot.com/2010/07/three-varieties-of-keynesianism.html
Paul Davidson has pointed out that:
Minsky often told me that he never wanted to be identified as a Post Keynesian …. In reality Minsky was, and always wanted to be, a mainstream Keynesian who used the Modigliani variant of the ISLM system and whose major distinction from other mainstream Keynesians was that he possessed knowledge of actual real world financial markets.
Davidson, P. 2003–2004. “Setting the Record Straight on ‘A History of Post Keynesian Economics,’” Journal of Post Keynesian Economics 26.2 252–253.
July 8th, 2010 at 1:31 am
We all agree that the growing global debt levels are unsustainable, insane, etc. Yet, what’s going to happen again?
Unless all global debt is forgiven and we start over, these seem to be the options:
The govt. steps in and bails someone out. Because “it was the right thing to do”.
The banks and other megabusinesses say, if you regulate us, we’ll leave.
The extremely biased business MSM (worldwide, from what I’ve seen) does what their corporate board of directors tell them to do. The truth is never allowed. Unless we can get killer ratings with it and a huge profit all at the same time.
Again, we all know this is unsustainable. But, nobody’s marching on Parliament, Congress, etc. and not backing down. Various “pundits” have done exhaustive analysis of this. And what have they come up with?:
People are terrified of losing their jobs and their homes.
People are terrified of not having health coverage. And possibly dying the next time they get sick. And nobody caring.
People are lazy and could care less. The how do you explain all of the people who post online? And buy the pundits CD’s, DVD’s, books, go to their lectures, etc.?
It’s the old thing of everyone in a room knows what to do. But everyone wants someone else to take the first step. That way they can judge the safety factor before the join them. Or, just leave and go home.
But also, like in many long term problems, there’s a market in it. How much money have all of the various “experts” made in their in-depth explanations of this depression to the public? I’ve heard some say to say I’m rich is a cheap shot, mate. Far from it.
On the other hand, if this global debt disappeared tommorrow, what would all of these people write/speak about? So in a sense, it’s in their best interest financially to keep this crisis going.
Noam Chomsky’s right in one aspect. To say that the an unregulated global economy is “democracy” is a joke. And he’s right. But unfortunately, many progressive groups who say they want change refuse to talk to each other.
Why? Because it’s every person for themselves. Is it because they don’t want somebody else invading their turf? Is it because they’re jealous of one person being “The Spokesperson for the Left”? I think it’s all of the above.
Which means (no big surprise), nothing will change. And as much as Obama said, I’m angry. No more bailouts, yadda yadda yadda. That’s all political rubbish. If he’s not smart enough to see that two wars are economically unsustainable, what the hell else do you expect?
July 8th, 2010 at 2:31 am
[...] Naked Capitalism and My Scary Minsky Model | Steve Keen’s Debtwatch [...]
July 8th, 2010 at 9:00 am
soho44,
I translated short fragments of the interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski and posted it on the Bill’s blog. I believe Brzezinski is still one of the leading strategists working for Obama. As you know he is Polish and he might have said more in that interview with a Polish newspaper than in any interview English assuming that nobody would bother to translate it.
It’s all about global domination and the fact that they (the Americans) know that they’re losing. The well-being of working class in America is not a concern to anybody. But keeping the illusion of wealth of the rich classes is. This model is called “open society” or “free market democracy” or whatever.
Yes there is a viable alternative to the American corporate pseudo-democracy – just go to the nearest supermarket and check where all these goods were manufactured. I bet that most of them are made in China. I am not advocating implementing that system in the US or Australia – I know quite well how it works as I lived 22 years in Poland under “real socialism”. I am just observing the phenomenon of the rise of China. Everyone should stop for a while and think why.
The Chinese system is still a breed of capitalism – it’s a state capitalism controlled by the Communist Party (and it’s not free from corruption). That system is not based of individual liberty which is limited but the level of personal freedom is probably acceptable if you just mind your own business. So the system is not totalitarian – it is just a one-party technocratic oligarchy.
However I would say that there is much more personal freedom in China in 2010 than in any Latin American dictatorship in the 1980-ties.
What if their system to some extent works for the common good but our doesn’t work at all?
We may not deserve democracy in the West as we have wasted it because of linking freedom and liberty to absolute property rights.
Here’s the translation and my original comments:
There is a recent interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski (in Polish) where he openly admits that the West is in a rather irreversible decline. Since he probably wouldn’t dare to say the same in English I have no choice but to translate a few of his pronouncements as the automated translation is too difficult to read. This puts the MMT in the proper context and partially answers concerns raised by other commentators on this blog.
Title “The decline of the West”
Q. Is the current crisis changing the world?
A. Without any doubt. We live in times when something fundamental is changing.
Q. This year or this century?
A. Not in one year. But for sure this century. What is relevant is that the Western global domination is nearing its end. This domination has been in place for the last 500-600 years.
Then he states that there is a political awakening affecting the most of the humanity and there are negative feelings towards West and especially America which used to be the “conscience of the West” (sorry this is his term I am not a psychoanalyst to help)
then Zbig becomes sentimental
“This is very dangerous as if the America lost its leading role in the world any other state would not be able to replace it”
He also shares with us his past concerns about the nuclear war when he was working at the White House. “there is no such danger now but there is an uncertainty about the stability of the West and the politically engaged world passes negative judgements about the role of the West”, “Colonialism, imperialism and exploitation are essential parts of the historical narrative dominating the world.”
Brzezinski then states bluntly “the military equilibrium is the slowest to change. America’s military budget is larger than the sum of the military budgets of all other countries in the world” … “the supremacy is thumping and this will stay for long, America is not threatened by any major war but tiny wars endanger her, they are economically, financially and morally costly.”
then he says that
“I support the principles of President Obama’s policy, if he is able to push America in a slightly different direction in internal and foreign politics the US will have enough potential to play a predominant role in the world. Otherwise if he fails, the changes will accelerate and may be more dramatic”
I won’t translate the usual rants about Russia as this is a waste of time. The automated translation is at the bottom. Zbig was in fact a one-trick pony and he still seems to be obsessed by the former Soviet Union even when much more interesting things happen around.
I would summarise my post about the interview by quoting a famous anthem:
“And the last fight let us face”
http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://alfaomega.webnode.com/news/zbigniew%2520brzezi%25C5%2584ski%253A%2520schy%25C5%2582ek%2520zachodu%2520%28rozmowa%2520jacka%2520%25C5%25BCakowskiego%29/&ei=IFsuTMqhBcixcZeazOID&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCQQ7gEwAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DJacek%2B%25C5%25BBakowski%2BBrzezi%25C5%2584ski%2Bpolityka%2Bwywiad%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Do
July 8th, 2010 at 9:41 am
Why can’t we grow our way out of this mess through government borrow & spending, Keynesian stimulus? If the aggregate demand created by the government spending grew the economy at, say, 4% per year, couldn’t that gradually reduce the ratio of private debt to GDP and bring the ratio down to a more sane level?
July 8th, 2010 at 9:58 am
Mr Keen
How will you take on very powerful corporations like the banks?
Dealing with psychopath disorder culture so you must be ruthless!
I can only see one way prove that the banks are not as strong and powerful as like all us naive suckers to believe.
Jim Chanos model was brilliant when Enron blew up, open, accurate, and transparent accounting is the only way.
July 8th, 2010 at 10:13 am
Dave2882,
“Why can’t we grow our way out of this mess through government borrow & spending, Keynesian stimulus?”
1. Because the political system in the EU and US is defunct and such a stimulus would go against vested interests of certain groups of people.
2. Because decent people (like the followers of Cameron or Abbott) have been brainwashed so that they are afraid of so called “unsustainable public debt”
Now my forecast:
I believe that the Americans started yet another political offensive against Russia (and China by proxy) by rubbing salt into old wounds in the Middle East, Central Asia and Eastern Europe.
1. Just before the elections in the US a few helicopters will go down killing American troops or something similar will happen – another oil rig will blow up. This will not cost the opponents of America much.
2. As a consequence the Republicans will win and the right-wing anarcho-capitalists will block any possibility of reforms or stimulation of the economy in the US.
3. Then we have to wait another 5-10 years and probably nothing will happen except for a few unimportant jitters. There will be global cost-push inflation at the same time due to the growth of consumption in Asia.
4. Then this is it. USD will lose its global reserve currency status and the undefeated American army’s equipment will meet the fate of the old Soviet arms. They will rust together. It will be too late to rebuild any productive capacities in the US while commodity prices will go up.
Here in Australia our society will be transformed into a kind of enlarged Singapore dominated by the Asian settlers what may not be bad at all. I enjoy noodles!
July 8th, 2010 at 10:19 am
Steve another good post, thanks.
Re the private sector debt to GDP graph. This might sound like a silly question, but are you including government or financial sector debt in your ratio for the US?
Also are you including non-financial corporate bond issuance for either the US or Australia?
The reason I ask, is that from what I can see, the Fed Level Tables in the flow of funds seem to have a far wider scope than the RBA credit and lending data.
If anything, you might be overstating the differential between the US and Australia, and if so your case may actually be even more compelling. We may be closer to the US than that graph shows.
But you may well be making adjustments for this.
FWIW, I would only include non-financial private sector debt (ie household and business sectors only), which would probably mean stripping out the US financial and government debt from the FoF and adding any Aussie non-financial corporate debt to the D2 data.
Is this what you are looking at?
Cheers.
July 8th, 2010 at 10:22 am
sorry, last paragraph should read:
….adding any Aussie non-financial corporate bond issuance to the D2 data.
July 8th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Dave2882,
The reason is that the government is already spending more than it receives in taxes. The only way for it to contribute to demand is by borrowing money. How will borrowing more money decrease the debt to GDP ratio?
July 8th, 2010 at 10:41 am
ned, Dr. Keen’s models regard private debt and government debt as different. In his models, it’s the excessive level of private debt that’s causing the problems.
ak, thanks for the response. I asked the question because I noticed that Dr. Keen didn’t list it as an option. He said:
“Having got ourselves into a debt-induced economic crisis, the only permanent way out is to reduce the debt–either directly by abolishing large slabs of it, or indirectly by inflating it away. I have very little confidence in the ability of the Federal Reserve to do the latter, while the former will take a level of political fortitude that is far beyond our current politicians.”
July 8th, 2010 at 11:14 am
Dost not see? A monstrous giant of infamous repute whom I intend to encounter.
July 8th, 2010 at 11:24 am
ak,
“We have “invented” that global financial system. It is not natural.”
Utter hogwash. What is there is natural, theories of a utopian system with no recessions is what is un-natural, and unachievable. The system we have works, however there will be ups and downs. This is what people have a hard time accep0ting, but it too is part of nature and reality, and thus is unavoidable.
This system based on absolute property rights, brainwashing of “consumers”, debt peonage and greed is also inherently unstable on its own what has been shown by Steve.
And what system is better, no property rights?? I’ll keep my property thanks mate. If totalitarianism works so well why is it that Cuba is the only country that I can think of that still operates this way, and aren’t they doing well. What Steve does is try to show reality, not say what reality should be like you do. Of course credit has to be restricted and some regulation put in place, but allowing the government sole discretion to determine who get’s capital is the worst ‘solution’ I can think of.
“It looks that the Chinese are investing in the research and productive capacities so that they will be ready in time to face objective problems even if some resource misallocation is inevitable.”
This is inevitable in any system, but in a centrally planned system the misallocation is worse, I’m sure the Chineese have much better planners those of previous failed centrally planned regimes, wait a second, no I don’t, they will be just as bad, as will anyone who thinks the can allocate capital from a central bank at just the right amount to keep inflation at 7%.
“Let’s wait and see which social model wins the next round and the whole game. I am happy that you want to participate in this experiment. I prefer to be an observer and my exposure to the effects of the imminent failure of the Western model is limited.”
I don’t see how you have any choice other than to participate. What you fail to see is that failure is unavoidable. The policies of governments attempting to prevent failure is what is causing the massive failures we experienced in 2008, with more to come. Failure should be embraced as the incompetent are bankrupted and the competent take over the assets of the failed and use them productively. That is the system we had, the system we have is more like the one you subscribe to, Bernanke’s policies are more like the ones you prescribe (ZIRP with inflation induced negative real interest rates) so it looks like we will see how your model (or one very close to it) pans out. My guess is that most will lose, my recommendation is to look at ways to win when all this goes down.
July 8th, 2010 at 1:02 pm
Steve,
Great post & congrats on your model!
The sense I get from this piece is that is seems to be a better fit for the US experience rather than Australia. I note your chart shows Aust private debt/GDP ratio is below the US 50 year average. Are you becomming less bearish for Australia?
FYI the latest jobs data out this morning. Jobs up 45,900 (expectations were +15k). Unemployment rate 5.1% (as low as 4.0% in Perth).
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0?OpenDocument
and
Incomes & profits likley to continue to improve now we are generating trade surpluses…
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/ProductsbyReleaseDate/A5FB33BD2E3CC68FCA257496001547A1?OpenDocument
July 8th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
@ak,
To add to your previous comments:
There is massive apathy here in much of the voting population. And I can’t think of any new solution to change that at this point.
Every aspect of this has been endlessly discussed. Books have been written. CD’s and DVD’s of lectures have been made. And despite all that, the same apathy remains.
The only thing that comes to mind is one of Chomsky’s old points. Allow public involvment in all aspects of society, the eocnomy and more. Does this mean a Mike Gravel/Ron Paul No Fed Utopia? No.
What it means is to allow reasonable ideas to be openly discussed and then actions taken. No “that’s unpatriotic” labeling.
But, the States aren’t ready for that. And we all know the underlying reasons. So no point in rehashing the obvious.
July 8th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
ned,
Some people may believe in “free market” and “free society based on (almost) absolute property rights”.
I don’t believe in anything. I just try to describe what I can see with my own eyes.
I do not reject the possibility that other systems may be more competitive and win.
The elephant in the room is the loss of productive capacities (what also includes high unemployment) in Western countries due to globalisation. This vacuum is filled by the Asians. Good on them!
Have you read the article written by Andy Grove which I mentioned a few days ago? He is certainly not a communist.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-01/how-to-make-an-american-job-before-it-s-too-late-andy-grove.html
‘Until a recent spate of suicides at Foxconn’s giant factory complex in Shenzhen, China, few Americans had heard of the company. But most know the products it makes: computers for Dell and HP, Nokia Oyj cell phones, Microsoft Xbox 360 consoles, Intel motherboards, and countless other familiar gadgets. Some 250,000 Foxconn employees in southern China produce Apple’s products. Apple, meanwhile, has about 25,000 employees in the U.S. — that means for every Apple worker in the U.S. there are 10 people in China working on iMacs, iPods and iPhones. The same roughly 10-to-1 relationship holds for Dell, disk-drive maker Seagate Technology, and other U.S. tech companies.
You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal because the high-value work — and much of the profits — remain in the U.S. That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to have if it consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work — and masses of unemployed? ‘
this older article is still worth reading as well:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aw5EZ9BzrgtU
‘Patents have evolved to a point where they often aren’t developed into products, and instead are instruments traded by speculators looking for the highest possible profit, Grove said May 2 at an event in Mountain View, California. Similar to financial derivatives, the link between patents and the products they protect is getting more tenuous, he said.
The result is that industries ranging from technology to health care are failing to take advantage of new inventions, because sitting on patents can be more attractive than developing products, a process that can be “expensive, dirty and unrewarded,” Grove said in an interview. If the government awards a patent — granting a limited monopoly — the onus should be on the owner to develop a product, Grove said.
“You should not grant a monopoly to people who don’t produce,” said Grove, 72. “Patents have become derivatives of the invention and have a life of their own.” ‘
BTW Cuba still has a purely communist command economy. China has a centrally planned market economy and people living there have quite wide (but limited) private property rights.
July 8th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
bb
Many thanks for your steadfast work as a devils advocate on this blog, this gets us all thinking.
That unemployment statistic of 5.1%/4% is really a fantasy as it represents the percentage of people who have had less than 1 hour or paid or unpaid work per week and who have been actively seeking work in the two week survey period. It excludes people who are doing voluntary work, have given up looking for work, or have only one or two hours work per week.
If the same criterion were used to asses unemployment during the great depression the number would most likely have been much lower than even that 4% figure (about 2%). Then as now there were work for the dole policies in action, many people at present are getting “new start” (dole) benefits on the condition, not that they look for work, but that they do at least 15 hours of unpaid voluntary work per week.
Add to that the number of people who are underemployed doing less than the 38 hours per week or working in jobs well below their skills capability and you realise that those recently released figures are just intended to deceive and give false impressions of a sound economy. They are nothing but an undisguised fraud apparent only to those of us who look behind the facade.
Things are a lot better now (than in the great depression) only because we have a steady steam of very cheap Chinese cargo entering the country but this is all about to come to a grinding halt. The sort of exponential growth illustrated by Steve and going on right now is a terminal condition a mathematical and logical certainty.
July 8th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Brightspark1 someways bb is very important to this blog he stops us falling into the trap of too much doom and gloom.
Bloggers tend to herd feed of each other comments to the point where my story is worst than yours, all going to be living in caves buy gold now.
However still would question the data bb uses to make his conclusions?
One quarter does not mean we are heading back into boom times.
Still believe alot of hidden debt Enron accounting is in Australain banks something no public data will show only scuttlebutt method will bring this to light time will tell.
July 8th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
BrightSpark1,
Many thanks for your kind words, and analysis on the latest numbers.
As a non-bear, it can feel lonely here…..
July 8th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
sj,
ditto
July 8th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
Steve,
I just scanned you new paper for the first time and noticed that you intend to model policies for dealing with the coming depression. Aren’t the two main problems in a depression
1. Low investment in the real economy;
2. High and rising unemployment ?
It seems to me that the Keynesian prescription of inflationary money policy, while it helps the employment problem, works against the investment problem.
Would it be better to address both problems at the same time? I’m thinking along the lines of
A. Raise interest rates so that savers wouldn’t have to speculate;
B. Negative interest scrip money spent into circulation via govt salaries, contracts and benefits. Such money would have high velocity and would self liquidate without creating inflation.
Irving Fisher thought highly enough of stamped money that he wrote a small book about it. Brad DeLong brought it up recently as well.
July 8th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
ak,
What you present is a strawman, I never said anything about the two issues you just put forward. What I said was that you are falling for the same trick that Bernanke is in. You think the world can be put into your model, I am saying it can’t.
Theories that model reality are wonderful, they can explain a great many things about the present and, if they are good predict what might happen in the future, under certain circumstances. However any theory, such as MMT, or Neo-classical theory or anything else for that matter that says “this is how things should be” are doomed to fail, this is because it only takes 1 circumstance to be overlooked and the theory is toast. I can see many features of reality that MMT fails to take into account, or thinks it can control, which won’t work in the real world. Reality is the only thing we’ve got, as far as I can see Steve see’s this, and you fail to.
July 8th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
ned,
go to the nearest supermarket and count things “Made in China” and then “Made in U.S.A.” or “Made in Australia”
this is the reality – the rest is “doomed to fail”
July 8th, 2010 at 4:33 pm
ak,
A strawman then an over simplification. Surely you have some real ideas to back up your theory.
The final product may be produced in china, but was it 100% derived in China?? The technology to make it in part was 100% Chinese?? The raw materials were also 100% sourced in China?? I think not.
Don’t confuse the ability to exploit cheap labour in a manufacturing plant with the ability to compete on the global market place of ideas and commodeties. If things were the way you see it China and India would already be dominating the world.
July 8th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
Brightspark.. I think the more important thing about the unemployment stats is that they show we are pretty back to where we were before the GFC hit. This will obviously help, if we are hit by another GFC like event.
Also, Steve has previously recommended the Morgan Research Poll as a good indicator of unemployment. It is essentially showing the same thing:
Unemployment falls 121,000 to 682,000 (5.9%) &
Underemployment drops 131,000 to 753,000 (6.5%)
http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2010/4524/
July 8th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
brett123,
thanks for the link – i have never seen this site before. A good counter point to the ABS data.
What staggers me is the 800,000 increase in FULL TIME jobs since last year (I think the ABS number is closer to 200,000).
Either way, it does not feel like a recession to me.
Funnily enough, Australia’s strong economic performance supports steve’s model – which shows our debt has to roughly double from here before we end up like the US. So, plenty of growth still to come (driven now by a trade surplus rather than increasing debt).
Hence my question to steve:
“Have you become less bearish on the Australian economy”.
July 8th, 2010 at 5:57 pm
ned,
“A strawman then an over simplification. Surely you have some real ideas to back up your theory.”
What is “my theory”? That dismantling the institution of state, applying inflation targetting (NAIRU), cutting budget deficits, allowing for debt deflation etc. will finally ruin us even before we run out of oil?
Just wait a few more years and both of us will see the difference between implementing whatever they have in China and neoclassical /Monetarist / Austrian economics.
Please read Andy Grove. He is a very wise man. This should answer your questions about the level of sophistication of the Chinese.
July 8th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
bb
One or two months of trade surpluses amid long runs of trade deficits and and an unbroken run of current account deficits for 50 years is not significant. It is the current account deficit that increases the debt not the trade account only.
It feels like a lot more than a recession to me, much worse.
Brett123
Steve has also recommended the CofEE site at http://e1.newcastle.edu.au/coffee/indicators/indicators.cfm.
Also remember the figures should not be compared with great depression figures as the definitions used were completely different. Also the Morgan and ABS figures must have some bias to preserve an impression of prosperity on which the current ponzi economy depends. Unemployment was in any case quite bad before the GFC started, check out figures in the sixties for a good employment situation which was concurrent with good current account performance.
July 8th, 2010 at 6:33 pm
BrightSpark1
“It feels like a lot more than a recession to me, much worse.”
Interesting comment. Can I ask, in which City do you live?
July 8th, 2010 at 6:43 pm
BrightSpark1,
Unless I am mistaken (which is quite possible), your link shows the employemnt situation has improved significantly since this time last year.
I guess like anything, Employment can be measured in a number of different ways….the trend however seems consistent