Neoclassical Economics: mad, bad, and dangerous to know
on March 24th, 2009 at 7:29 amThe whole of the most recent Real World Economics Review (formerly known as the Post-Autistic Economics Review) is devoted to the question of “How should the collapse of the world financial system affect economics?”.
My paper, which led volume 49, is reproduced below. If you’d like to read the entire volume, click here for the online version and here for the PDF. You can also go here for back issues, and to subscribe for free.
The most important thing that global financial crisis has done for economic theory is to show that neoclassical economics is not merely wrong, but dangerous.
Neoclassical economics contributed directly to this crisis by promoting a faith in the innate stability of a market economy, in a manner which in fact increased the tendency to instability of the financial system. With its false belief that all instability in the system can be traced to interventions in the market, rather than the market itself, it championed the deregulation of finance and a dramatic increase in income inequality. Its equilibrium vision of the functioning of finance markets led to the development of the very financial products that are now threatening the continued existence of capitalism itself.
Simultaneously it distracted economists from the obvious signs of an impending crisis—the asset market bubbles, and above all the rising private debt that was financing them. Paradoxically, as capitalism’s “perfect storm” approached, neoclassical macroeconomists were absorbed in smug self-congratulation over their apparent success in taming inflation and the trade cycle, in what they termed “The Great Moderation”. Ben Bernanke’s contribution to this is worth quoting at length:
… the low-inflation era of the past two decades has seen not only significant improvements in economic growth and productivity but also a marked reduction in economic volatility…, a phenomenon that has been dubbed “the Great Moderation”. Recessions have become less frequent and milder, and … volatility in output and employment has declined significantly… The sources of the Great Moderation remain somewhat controversial, but … there is evidence for the view that improved control of inflation has contributed in important measure to this welcome change in the economy … (Bernanke, 2004; emphasis added)
It is all very well to have economic theory dominated by a school of thought with an innate faith in the stability of markets when those markets are forever gaining—whether by growth in the physical economy, or via rising prices in the asset markets. In those circumstances, academic economists aligned to PAECON can rail about the logical inconsistencies in mainstream economics all they want: they will be, and were, ignored by government, the business community, and most of the public, because their concerns don’t appear to matter.
They can even be put down as critics of capitalism—worse still, as proponents of socialism—because it seems to those outside academia, and to neoclassical economists as well, that what they are attacking is not economic theory, but capitalism itself: “You think markets are unstable? Shame on you!”
The story is entirely different when asset markets crash beneath a mountain of debt, and the ensuing fallout threatens to take the physical economy with it. Now it should be possible to have the critics of neoclassical economics appreciated for what we really are: critics of a fundamentally false theory of the operations of a market economy, and tentative developers of a new, realistic analysis of the nature of capitalism, warts and all.
Changing Pedagogy
Given how severe this crisis has already proven to be, the reform of economic theory and education should be an easy and urgent task. But that is not how things will pan out. Though the “irresistible force” of the Global Financial Crisis is indeed immense, so to is the inertia of the “immovable object” of economic belief.
Despite the severity of the crisis in the real world, academic neoclassical economists will continue to teach from the same textbooks in 2009 and 2010 that they used in 2008 and earlier (laziness will be as influential a factor here as ideological commitment). Rebels economists will be emboldened to proclaim “I told you so” in their non-core subjects, but in the core micro, macro and finance units, it will be business as usual virtually everywhere. Many undergraduate economics students in the coming years will sit gobsmacked. as their lecturers recite textbook theory as if there is nothing extraordinarily different taking place in the real economy.
The same will happen in the academic journals. The editors of the American Economic Review and the Economic Journal are unlikely to convert to Post Keynesian or Evolutionary Economics or Econophysics any time soon—let alone to be replaced by editors who are already practitioners of non-orthodox thought. The battle against neoclassical economic orthodoxy within universities will be long and hard, even though its failure will be apparent to those in the non-academic world.
Much of this will be because neoclassical economists are genuinely naïve about their role in causing this crisis. From their perspective, they will interpret the crisis as due to poor regulation, and to government intervention in areas that should have been left to the market. Aspects of the crisis that cannot be solely attributed to those causes will be covered by appealing to embellishments to basic neoclassical theory. Thus, for example, the Subprimes Scam will be portrayed as something easily explained by the theory of asymmetric information.
They will seriously believe that the crisis calls not for the abolition of neoclassical economics, but for its teachings to be more widely known. The very thought that this financial crisis should require any change in what they do, let alone necessitate the rejection of neoclassical theory completely, will strike them as incredible.
In this sense, they are like the Maxwellian physicists about whom Max Planck remarked that “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it” (Kuhn 1970, p. 150).
But physics is charmed in comparison to economics, since it is inherently an empirical discipline, and quantum mechanics gave the only explanation to the empirically quantifiable black body problem. Planck’s confidence that a new generation would take the place of the old was therefore well-founded. But in economics, not only will the neoclassical old guard resist change, they could, if economic circumstances stabilise, give rise to a new generation that accepts their interpretation of the crisis. The is how the success of the Keynesian counter-revolution came about, and it is why we have we entered this crisis with an even more rabid neoclassicism than confronted Keynes in the 1930s.
The first thing that the global financial crisis should therefore do to economics is to galvanise student protest about the lack of debate within academic economics itself, because dissident academic economists will be unable to shift the tuition of economics themselves without massive pressure from the student body.
I speak from my own experience, when I was one of many students who agitated against neoclassical economics in the early 1970s at Sydney University, and campaigned for the establishment of a Political Economy Department. Were it not for the protests by the students against what we then rightly saw as a deluded approach to economics, the non-neoclassical staff at Sydney University would have been unable to affect change themselves.
Though we won that battle at Sydney University, we lost the war. The economic downturn of the mid-1970s allowed for the defeat of what Joan Robinson aptly called the Bastard Keynesianism of that era, and its replacement by Friedman’s “monetarism”. Our protests were also wrongly characterised as being essentially anti-capitalist. Though there were indeed many who were anti-capitalist within the Political Economy movement, the real target of student protest was a poor theory of how capitalism operates, and not capitalism itself.
Similar observations can be made about the PAECON movement today, where student dissatisfaction with neoclassical economics in France spilled over into a worldwide movement. Though the initial impact of the movement was substantial, neoclassical dominance of economic pedagogy continued unabated. The movement persisted, but its relevance to the real economy was not appreciated because that economy appeared to be booming. Now that the global economy is in crisis, student pressure is needed once more to ensure that, this time, real change to economic pedagogy occurs.
Business pressure is also essential. Business groups to some degree naively believed that those who proclaimed the virtues of the market system, and who argued on their side in disputes over income distribution, were their allies in the academy, while critics of the market were their enemies. I hope that this financial catastrophe will convince the business community that its true friends in the academy are those who understand the market system, whether they criticise or praise it. As much as we need students to revolt over the teaching of economics, we need business to bring pressure on academic economics departments to revise their curricula because of the financial crisis.
Changing Economics
The pedagogic pressure from students and the wider community has to be matched by the accelerated development of alternatives to neoclassical economics. Though we know much more today about the innate flaws in neoclassical thought than was known at the time of the Great Depression (Keen 2001), the development of a fully-fledged alternative to it is still a long way off. There are multiple alternative schools of thought extant—from Post Keynesian to Evolutionary and Behavioural Economics, and Econophysics—but these are not developed enough to provide a fully fledged alternative to neoclassical economics.
This should not dissuade us from dispensing completely with the neoclassical approach. For some substantial period, and especially while the actual economy remains in turmoil, we have to accept a period of turmoil in the teaching of and research into economics. Hanging on to parts of a failed paradigm simply because it has components that other schools lack would be a tragic mistake, because it is from precisely such relics that a neoclassical vision could once again become dominant when—or rather if—the market economy emerges from this crisis.
Key here should be a rejection of neoclassical microeconomics in its entirety. This was the missing component of Keynes’s revolution. While he tried to overthrow macroeconomics shibboleths like Say’s Law, he continued to accept not merely the microeconomic concepts such as perfect competition, but also their unjustified projection into macroeconomic areas—as with his belief that the marginal productivity theory of income distribution, which is fundamentally a micro concept, applied at the macro level of wage determination.
From this failure to expunge the microeconomic foundations of neoclassical economics from post-Great Depression economics arose the “microfoundations of macroeconomics” debate that led ultimately to rational expectations representative agent macroeconomics, in which the economy is modelled as a single utility maximising individual who is blessed with perfect knowledge of the future.
Fortunately, behavioural economics provides the beginnings of an alternative vision as to how individuals operate in a market environment, while multi-agent modelling and network theory give us foundations for understanding group dynamics in a complex society. They explicitly emphasise what neoclassical economics has evaded: that aggregation of heterogeneous individuals results in emergent properties of the group which cannot be reduced to the behaviour of any “representative individual” amongst them. These approaches should replace neoclassical microeconomics completely.
The changes to economic theory beyond the micro level involve a complete recanting of the neoclassical vision. The vital first step here is to abandon the obsession with equilibrium.
The fallacy that dynamic processes must be modelled as if the system is in continuous equilibrium through time is probably the most important reason for the intellectual failure of neoclassical economics. Mathematics, sciences and engineering long ago developed tools to model out of equilibrium processes, and this dynamic approach to thinking about the economy should become second nature to economists.
An essential pedagogic step here is to hand the teaching of mathematical methods in economics over to mathematics departments. Any mathematical training in economics, if it occurs at all, should come after students have done at least basic calculus, algebra and differential equations—the last area being one about which most economists of all persuasions are woefully ignorant. This simultaneously explains why neoclassical economists obsess too much about proofs, and why non-neoclassical economists like those in the Circuit School (Graziani 1989) have had such difficulties in translating excellent verbal ideas about credit creation into coherent dynamic models of a monetary production economy (c.f. Keen 2009).
Neoclassical economics has effectively insulated itself from the great advances made in these genuine sciences and engineering in the last forty years, so that while its concepts appear difficult, they are quaint in comparison to the sophistication evident today in mathematics, engineering, computing, evolutionary biology and physics. This isolation must end, and for a substantial while economics must eat humble pie and learn from these disciplines that it has for so long studiously ignored. Some researchers from those fields have called for the wholesale replacement of standard economics curricula with at least the building blocks of modern thought in these disciplines, and in the light of the catastrophe economists have visited upon the real world, their arguments carry substantial weight.
For example, in response to a paper critical of trends in econophysics (Gallegatti et al. 2006), the physicist Joe McCauley responded that, though some of the objections were valid, the problems in economics proper were far worse. He therefore suggested that:
the economists revise their curriculum and require that the following topics be taught: calculus through the advanced level, ordinary differential equations (including advanced), partial differential equations (including Green functions), classical mechanics through modern nonlinear dynamics, statistical physics, stochastic processes (including solving Smoluchowski–Fokker–Planck equations), computer programming (C, Pascal, etc.) and, for complexity, cell biology. Time for such classes can be obtained in part by eliminating micro- and macro-economics classes from the curriculum. The students will then face a much harder curriculum, and those who survive will come out ahead. So might society as a whole. (McCauley 2006, p. 608; emphasis added)
The economic theory that should eventually emerge from the rejection of neoclassical economics and the basic adoption of dynamic methods will come much closer than neoclassical economics could ever do to meeting Marshall’s dictum that “The Mecca of the economist lies in economic biology rather than in economic dynamics” (Marshall 1920: xiv). As Veblen correctly surmised over a century ago (Veblen 1898), the failure of economics to become an evolutionary science is the product of the optimising framework of the underlying paradigm, which is inherently antithetical to the process of evolutionary change. This reason, above all others, is why the neoclassical mantra that the economy must be perceived as the outcome of the decisions of utility maximising individuals must be rejected.
Economics also has to become fundamentally a monetary discipline, right from the consideration of how individuals make market decisions through to our understanding of macroeconomics. The myth of “the money illusion” (which can only true in a world without debt) has to be dispelled from day one, while our macroeconomics has to be that of a monetary economy in which nominal magnitudes matter—precisely because they are the link between the value of current output and the financing of accumulated debt. The dangers of excessive debt and deflation simply cannot be comprehended from a neoclassical perspective, which—along with the inability to reason outside the confines of equilibrium—explains the profession’s failure to assimilate Fisher’s prescient warnings (Fisher 1933; few people realise that Friedman’s preferred rate of inflation in his “Optimum Quantity of Money” paper was “a decline in prices at the rate of at least 5 per cent per year, and perhaps decidedly more”; Friedman 1969, p. 46, emphasis added).
The discipline must also become fundamentally empirical, in contrast to the faux empiricism of econometrics. By this I mean basing itself on the economic and financial data first and foremost—the collection and interpretation of which has been the hallmark of contributions by econophysicists—and by respecting economic history, a topic that has been expunged from economics departments around the world. It, along with a non-Whig approach to the history of economic thought, should be restored to the economics curriculum. Names that currently are absent from modern economics courses (Marx, Veblen, Keynes, Fisher, Kalecki, Schumpeter, Minsky, Sraffa, Goodwin, to name a few) should abound in such courses.
Ironically, one of the best calls for a focus on the empirical data sans a preceding economic model came from two of the most committed neoclassical authors, 2004 Nobel Prize winners Finn Kydland and Edward Prescott, when they noted that “the reporting of facts—without assuming the data are generated by some probability model—is an important scientific activity. We see no reason for economics to be an exception” (Kydland & Prescott 1990, p. 3). The failure of these authors to live up to their own standards1 should not be replicated in post-neoclassical economics.
References
- Irving Fisher, (1933). “The debt-deflation theory of great depressions”, Econometrica, Vol. 1, pp. 337-357.
- Milton Friedman, (1969), The Optimum Quantity of Money and Other Essays, Macmillan, Chicago.
- Mauro Gallegatti, Steve Keen, Thomas Lux & Paul Ormerod (2006). “Worrying Trends in Econophysics”, Physica A Vol. 370, pp. 1-6.
- Graziani Augusto, (1989). “The Theory of the Monetary Circuit”, Thames Papers in Political Economy, Spring, pp. 1-26. Reprinted in M. Musella and C. Panico (eds) (1995). The Money Supply in the Economic Process, Edward Elgar, Aldershot.
- Steve Keen, (2001). Debunking Economics: the naked emperor of the social sciences, Pluto Press & Zed Books, Sydney & London (click here for the eBook).
- Steve Keen, (2009). “Bailing out the Titanic with a Thimble”, Economic Analysis and Policy, Vol. 39 Issue 1 (forthcoming).
- Thomas Kuhn, (1962). The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, University Of Chicago Press, Chicago.
- Finn E. Kydland and Edward C. Prescott, (1990). “Business Cycles: Real Facts and a Monetary Myth”, Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis Quarterly Review, Vol. 23, no. 1, pp. 3–19.
- Joseph L. McCauley (2006). “Response to ‘Worrying Trends in Econophysics’”, Physica A 371, pp. 601–609.
- Alfred Marshall, (1920). Principles of Economics, 9th Edition, Macmillan, London.
- Edward C. Prescott (1999). “Some Observations on the Great Depression”, Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis Quarterly Review, Vol. 23, pp. 25–31.
- Thorstein Veblen, (1898). “Why is Economics not an Evolutionary Science?”, The Quarterly Journal of Economics, pp. 373-397.



hi tel,
your post leads me to something,
does anybody have any knowledge about how modern day islamic banking actually works. i know theory and practice can be quite different things.
i know its more of a venture capital model, but it would be great to get some insights if anybody has any.
perhaps some islamic bankers would like to post
On the subject of lending models and therefore the question of banks their operation, practices, philosophies and performance (and at the risk of being branded as a spruikeer for a particular bank), I will nonetheless highlight the example of the Bendigo Bank (in which I have a small number of shares).
Having been told that ‘playing’ in the share market can be very dangerous unless you really know what you’re doing (and I wouldn’t) and that if you were to invest, one needs to look at ‘the industry’, ‘the company’, ‘management’, ‘the business’ and their overall operation and performance, preferably over an extended period of time,
I had always kicked myself for not buying some shares in an organization based in the community in which I live.
This was largely because having married late (after losing the lot – financially – still had my marbles! ) and then with 2 teenagers to educate at a time that I was ‘getting on’,
I wanted some ‘productive’ saving and
I believed that ‘the Bendigo’ ticked all the boxes above in the best possible form.
In particular I was being very impressed with the “Community Banking” model they created and implemented with great success (showing what real customer service and community ‘connection’ is really all about – especially to the big 4 and at a time when that group were slashing and burning staff, branches and customers).
I also saw firsthand the quality of the people they employed from its board members, chief executive officer and staff at all levels, not to mention the esteem with which they (the bank) are held by the customers, not just in Bendigo but through a growing reach via a mix of bank owned and community partnered branches.
I had expected (rather than foreseen – certainly the manner and extent) what we are going through from the ‘sociological’ perspective, but had miscalculated my timings.
I had always said and believed that even a “battered” Bendigo Bank share would never fall below nine dollars. I felt that all it’s qualities and characteristics I mentioned above (amounting to significant conservatism) would see them simply perform well (and we would always need a ‘good’ bank – and they are that) OR lead to their becoing a ‘takeover target’ (which they have been and will be again).
Then in following the fortunes of “banks” among other stocks, I saw that by and large they were all just ‘lumped in together’, without much apparent consideration of the comparative ‘performance’. (Though the case of “Suncorp” seems to go against the proposition somewhat).
I have no idea whether the Bendigo Bank has much of a problem with credit default swaps and collateral debt obligations etc., I would have hoped and thought not. Maybe the merge with the Adelaide Bank might have exposed them somewhat – I don’t know.
These things aside, I am certain that their ‘banking model’ certainly does have a lot of characteristics that people will be looking for in an organization that they can trust with the fundamental business of banking — deposits and borrowing, such as is being discussed here with “lending clubs” etc.
So I will be very interested to see the upshot of the impact and hopefully changes that will be brought about to banks and banking by the GFC.
However given the strong conviction of many of the “established “contributors to this site about a stock market bounce prior to a big collapse before the end of the year (if I read it right), then notwithstanding my confidence in the Bendigo Bank, I will be sorely tempted to dispense with my very small holding to consider returning at some later time after the ‘real disaster we are still to have’.
Hi Mahaish, I do not think you are a “pessimist”
I think your prognosis is correct the U.S. is “fundamentaly flawed” as you suggest, it’s system of “democracy” is finished I ‘m afraid! I would rather think that China’s model of a ‘centrally planned’ economy with capitalist insights on developing wealth BUT a central distribution ‘democracy’ which makes certain that millions do not fail to receive adequate schooling;proper medical care;jobs (yes they will be created or they all go back and farm again, no sweat!)so perhaps it is idealistic BUT why not the STRENGTH OF A CAPITALIST WEALTH CREATION SYSTEM AND A CENTRALLY BASED DISTRIBUTIVE SYSTEM?(that WAS what we were supposed to have with social democratic systems,right?) who knows,China has turned itself from a starving nation into a new powerhouse in 50 years! we will all see (I’m afraid to say pessimistically!)Woodrow Wilson said:” If you want to make enemies,change something!” Just ask Dr Keen eh!
Steve,
I found this interesting insight in one of Michael Perelman’s journal articles.
“Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen (1971), an economist who had more ecological awareness than any of his generation, pointed out that economics had difficulty coming to grips with the concept of extraction because of a serious flaw in economic theory. In particular, economic theory faces a nearly impossible task of comparing stocks of resources with flows of resources. The quantity of petroleum in the ground is a stock, whereas the amount of petroleum used each year is a flow. Economists use a technique called discounting that allows for comparisons between stocks and flows, but as I will explain later, this procedure leaves much to be desired.”
Perelman, Michael. (2003). “Myths of the market”, Organization & Environment, Vol. 16, No. 2, pp. 168-226
People who put a box around their thinking are simply idiots, who lack intellect energy. It is like saying complex numbers have no practical use because they have an imaginary component. Neoclassical economists simply put their brains in a box, try to indoctrinate everyone else to do the same and hope the world will conform to their fantasy. The global financial crisis has proved that they have largely succeeded. The Turner review of FSA has publicly admitted to this: “The financial crisis has challenged the intellectual assumptions on which previous regulatory approaches were largely built, and in particular the theory of rational and self-correcting markets.”
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/Library/Communication/PR/2009/037.shtml
Lyonwiss,
I think that the full report would make for interesting reading.
I do believe that macroeconomics is the end result of a whole lot of microeconomics, so the first step towards good macroeconomic results is getting the microeconomics right (and there are more degrees of freedom with microeconomics).
I also believe that although staring at the macroeconomic indicators is a good way to figure out whether there is a problem or not, only by drilling into the microeconomic details (and indeed by looking at the physical world of jobs, commodities, technology and production) can anyone determine exactly what that problem is.
Needless to say, the way many small decisions stack up into one overall effect is far from simple, but at the same time, trying to build a theory of macroeconomics that is isolated from the activity happening underneath is about on a par with trying to build a steam engine without measuring the boiling point of water.
I live within walking distance of one of the biggest mosques in Australia, I guess I could make the effort to ask. I’m a bit curious to know how isolated the Islamic community is from the international banking crisis, not sure how willing they might be to talk with an outsider.
Tel,
Perhaps you can ask them to join us in waging jihad (struggle or holy war) against neoclassicals?
ive got a dog eared copy of “satanic verses”
for barter with the mufti if you like.
only joking
yes philip,
cut off their tongues and hands perhaps.
who said the pen was mightier than the sword
i think islamic civilisation invented the ” zero”.
american banks are now re discovering it and what lies south of it
Stimulus Payment Information.
This year, taxpayers will receive an Economic Stimulus Payment. This is a very exciting new program that I will explain using the Q and A format:
Q. What is an Economic Stimulus Payment?
A. It is money that the federal government will send to taxpayers.
Q. Where will the government get this money?
A. From taxpayers.
Q. So the government is giving me back my own money?
A. Only a smidgin.
Q. What is the purpose of this payment?
A. The plan is that you will use the money to purchase a high-definition TV set or some such thing, thus stimulating the economy.
Q. But isn’t that stimulating the economy of China ?
A. Shut up.
Below is some helpful advice on how to best help the Australian economy by spending your stimulus cheque wisely:
If you spend that money at Kmart, all the money will go to China .
If you spend it on petrol it will go to the Arabs.
If you purchase a computer it will go to India .
If you buy a car it will go to Japan .
If you purchase useless crap it will go to Taiwan .
And none of it will help the Australian economy.
We need to keep that money here in Australia. You can keep the money in Australia by spending it at garage sales, going to a cricket match or footy game, or spend it on prostitutes, beer and wine (domestic ONLY), or tattoos, since those are the only businesses that may still be owned by Aussies.
Thank you all Australians,
Your mate,
K.RUDD.
Philip,
Very good point. Governments all over the world are assuming we must all stimulate, not only ourselves but also each other: a mutual stimulation club. Why? Where is the proof? Could what they do make things worse? Bernanke claims that he understood what caused the the Great Depression: not loose enough monetary policy. Where is the proof? Did near zero rate policy for more than a decade work in Japan? Ah, but Japanese are different, they are not like us!?. The Fed fund rate has been near zero since December last year. The Euro dollar-Treasury spread is still over 1%, well above the 0.25% for a normal market, before the global financial crisis. The credit markets are still frozen. Governments have nothing but failed economic theories to guide them, after decades of ostricizing everyone not in the Chicago school. Mainstream economics is nothing but dogma, like a religion.
Philip,
Where did you get the Q&A? I laughed all the way through it. Thank you for that. I think I needed it after all the depressing news we have been getting lately.
Lyonwiss,
You make it sound like a mutual masturbation club. As Keen points out, change is most likely going to come from outside, rather than within. Unfortunately, this is going to take a long time, which is somewhat bearable for most Westerners who live in states with generous social welfare systems. Not so good for those who live day-by-day exposed to completely free labour markets.
While some level-headed officials have noticed that current equilibrium theories may have to be revised, I suspect that most economists will still blame government intervention (the Great Satan) for causing the crises, and we need a more fundamentalist application of neoclassical theory to public and private policy – which is the problem in the first place.
It reminds me of the Church priesthood of the last 1,700 years who blamed the faults of society on infidels, unbelievers, and Satan the Devil – rather than the policy of the church leaders, which was the problem.
Jim,
It was a PDF file with the official Australian Tax Office logo on it, along with an image of Rudd. It’s been doing the usual chain email rounds.
Hi Mahaish
I am no expert on Islamic Banking but offer a couple of observations.
Loans are made interest free between two parties for a fixed term. This is a very small portion of Islamic Banking as not many people deposit into these “accounts”- usually with some form of benevolent intent of “helping” a person/business.
More common is “profit sharing” where deposits earn a share of the profit/loss of the total account.
Most “loans” from the bank are in the form of joint venture where the bank becomes a partner in the business (sharing in profits and losses) or home equity share where the home owner pays “rent” to the bank for the portion owned by the bank. All these agreements are for fixed terms with fixed shares of profits.
There are also leasing agreements similar to car leases which are set for fixed periods at fixed rates.
The wiki entry is quite informative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking
One key difference is it appears that Islamic Banks are very conservative in lending practices – as their ability to attract deposits reflects directly on profit/loss performance rather than offering a variety of interest rates on deposit products as is done by our banks.
It is also worth noting that Islamic Banks operate in a broader system that requires 2.5% of accumulated wealth (over a minimum amount) each year to be redistributed to the poor.
Now that is something I would like to see – 2.5% of the wealth of the multi-millionaires being redistributed each year to the people who worked for it.
Steve – Would be interested on your thoughts of whether an “interest holiday” for a few years (where all repayments came off the outstanding debt) would achieve some form of stability in the system – or are we too far gone?
Lyonwiss said
“Very good point. Governments all over the world are assuming we must all stimulate, not only ourselves but also each other: a mutual stimulation club.”
There have been a lot of rumblings out of Europe recently that is contrary to this argument – note what Angela Merkel have been saying. Mervin King of the BOE has also stated that the UK cannot afford more stimulus’s and the results of QE is showing signs of backfiring. In other words it’s becoming clear that painful medicine must be taken.
Frank said
“This is why people like Topolanek seem frustrated by the whole thing – power is so obviously shifting to the East,”
It’s actually the opposite of what’s happening. The decoupling thesis was always flawed and the fact that Asian exports have been hit hardest is testimony to that. Manufacturing will be shifting back to the west in the coming years. Places like China will need to change their political structures and remove government from how they do business in order to survive. The fact that China uses the US as its bank shows an immaturity in its financial system and in particular its bond markets. They of course have been buying US assets to lower their currency. This will change in the near future as food/oil becomes an issue. Thus they are caught between a rock and a hard place; allow the yuan to appreciate in order to buy essentials or keep buying US assets to stimulate their exports. The former will decimate their manufacturing even more and the latter will keep them locked into the status quo. Of course if the US continues on its present course then they will fall first but if their constitution is resurrected then they will rise from the ashes first.
Australia on the other hand has the Dutch Disease by putting all of its eggs in the China basket. On the one hand if the AUD to crashes then we are toast as we import just about everything. On the other hand we need a low AUD in order to get Australian again producing goods. Its going to get quite ugly.
Philip said
“I suspect that most economists will still blame government intervention (the Great Satan) for causing the crises, and we need a more fundamentalist application of neoclassical theory to public and private policy”
Actually it’s not “most economists” that blame government its everyone else with half a brain. How can anyone say that Government did not cause these problems; ie. every single reason leading to high house prices in Australia is a direct result of government interferrence in the free market. And every abuse by the financial world is due to corrupt government enabling on behalf of the financial world; ie. the repeal of Glass-Stegall.
Just in case I am totally wrong may I ask what alternative system you have in mind. Is it one that has been shown to work in a historical context, one that has withstood the ravages of time and corruption – just asking.
Again I will point out that our system has worked over extended periods of time and that no system can withstand corruption. All that is required is for existing laws to be enforced and Glass-Steagall to be reintroduced. And of utmost importance is to reduce the ability of Government to introduce laws that distort the market.
Aac,
Neoclassicals will blame government intervention as they believe it causes the disruptions that apparently occur in markets, as markets supposedly are in equilibrium or near equilibrium. As Keen has pointed out, markets need to be regulated, not by policy based upon equilibrium theory, but by policy based upon disequilibrium price dynamics. The crises that are currently occurring are a fault of bad government regulation, based upon a faulty belief that freeing markets to the greatest possible extend will result in the best outcomes. While government certainly has interfered deficiently with negative gearing, FHOG, property propaganda, etc, Keen has pointed out that the ability of a freed financial system to generate endogenous credit under deregulated conditions will still result in the creation of speculate bubbles in asset markets – something which can be constrained with legalities as Keen has pointed out.
People will primarily blame government as it is the one central institution in society where results can be forthcoming, and something can be done. Furthermore, people are also blaming the financial institutions as well – a positive development. Faults aren’t just the domain of government.
Markets will never be free and subject to democratic constraints until the business class – as a system of power – can be dealt with first. The greatest enemy of a democratic market system are corporate capitalists, who demand a highly interventionist system to protect them from market discipline. They extol neoliberalism, a system of public subsidy, private profit – essentially a system of state protection for the rich, free market discipline for the rest – clothed in the ideal of the market.
“Capitalism’s biggest political enemies are not the firebrand trade unionists spewing vitriol against the system but the executives in pin-striped suits extolling the virtues of competitive markets with every breath while attempting to extinguish them with every action.” (p. 276).
Rajan Raghuram G. and Luigi Zingales. (2004). Saving Capitalism from the Capitalists: Unleashing the Power of Financial Markets to Create Wealth and Spread Opportunity, Princeton: Princeton University Press
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7970199.stm
I think everything is fairly plain to see. The G20 will agree to move forward with using some modern equivalent of the bancor, probably these modified SDRs, and global regulation will be enhanced to supervise and restrict global finance.
This setup will strongly discourage trade imbalances, which means that the relationships between the US and suppliers like OPEC and China will be greatly modified.
Getting the buy-in will not lead to preferential treatment of the US, as it did the last time everyone was sat around a table (Bretton Woods) , which essentially means power flowing to the East (ie – everywhere else apart from the Anglo-Saxon ‘west’ and parts of western Europe)
Philip,
Tut, tut! The language! The G20 club might hear you!
You said: “I suspect that most economists will still blame government intervention (the Great Satan) for causing the crises, and we need a more fundamentalist application of neoclassical theory to public and private policy.”
Not quite. It is neoclassical economics inside the heads of those in government which caused deregulation and the lack of intervention that precipitated the global financial crisis.
In the “Age of Turbulence” (p.367), Greenspan wrote: “As I saw it, from 1995 forward, the largely unregulated global markets, with some notable exceptions, appeared to be moving smoothly from one state of equilibrium to another. Adam Smith’s invisible hand was at work on a global scale.”
Say no more. The rest is history.
Philip
We are agreement 90% except for:
“The crises that are currently occurring are a fault of bad government regulation, based upon a faulty belief that freeing markets to the greatest possible extend will result in the best outcomes.”
You are saying that governments have been persuaded by neo-classicals that unregulated markets are best. I would agree with that. Then you also agree that there has been interference (FHOG for example) by the government, which I guess is not regulation, that has also been damaging. Is this interference caused by the neo-classicals or it simply government seeking to win the next election. I would argue it’s the latter. Government has no right in interfering in markets (ie. price fixing) just as they have no right in interfering with the judiciary. Government however have every right in enforcing regulation but here again is where they have let us down.
“Markets will never be free and subject to democratic constraints until the business class – as a system of power – can be dealt with first. … They extol neoliberalism, a system of public subsidy, private profit – essentially a system of state protection for the rich, free market discipline for the rest – clothed in the ideal of the market.”
Again agree; the phrase I associate with all that is simply ‘corruption’. The idea that our government gives tax payers money to unproductive enterprises at the expense of productive enterprises is again simply to win the next election. They may even be right in that it saves jobs but only temporarily as in the long run if you have people doing things that don’t assist production then you are wasting time as those people should be actively seeking to be productive whether it be starting their own enterprise or re-educating themselves in another field.
“Keen has pointed out that the ability of a freed financial system to generate endogenous credit under deregulated conditions will still result in the creation of speculate bubbles in asset markets”
Yes, you will always get bubbles as people’s desires, such as I must have the latest shoes and will pay anything for them, will run ahead of themselves. Big bubbles can be depressed by limiting leverage. Steve’s formulation’s show this to be the case with his Minsky debt cycles going chaotic under large debt. Thus as much as I respect and encourage Steve’s work I think it is common knowledge that leverage is the killer. You may say that neo-classicals disregard debt but I doubt it. There’s now way the Fed or the RBA did not see this coming; there’s just too many bubbles littered throughout history. I refuse to believe that Costello and Swan are unaware of the dangers of too much debt. In other words they are guilty of inflicting great pain to the ordinary citizen and for that they should pay along with the rest of the rat bags. One could say that the people voted them in and the people deserve what they get – caveat emptor – and I would say yes.
In summary; you would like to pursue the corporate criminals as I would but I would go much further and pursue the politicians as they know damn well what they are doing. They had a job to do and they didn’t do it.
Frank
The inbalances in the world he refers to is the way the Creditor nations buys US assets. He also asys that if the the West collapses developing nations would be hit hardest. My guess is that the BRIC nations would be on the top of that list.
For China to gain real power it would need to be politically and financially stable in the eyes of the rest of the world so that other countries would but Chinese assets as they do US assets. In other words people may say China is great but the tell is whether people are putting their money where their mouths are. Clearly they are not – at present.
Philip, earlier I neglected to respond to your generous offer to send Stapledon’s data in Excel format – that would be great. Thank you. Could you email the file to homes4aussies@yahoo.com