Today’s CPI data from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics reveals that consumer prices fell by 1 percent in the month of September. This is the steepest monthly fall in the index since January 1938, and comes after two previous monthly falls (of 0.4 and 0.14 percent). It is therefore possible that a debt-deflationary process is underway.
Monthly Change in US CPI since 1924
There is no doubt that we are in a debt-induced economic crisis; America may now have entered a deflationary crisis as well. The combination of the two is the motive force that sets in train a Depression, as Irving Fisher explained in 1933, in his academic paper “The Debt-Deflation Theory of Great Depressions” (Econometrica, 1933, Volume 1, pp. 337-357).
According to Fisher, the steps that lead from a debt crisis, to falling prices, and a Depression are:
“(1) Debt liquidation leads to distress selling and to
(2) Contraction of deposit currency, as bank loans are paid off, and to a slowing down of velocity of circulation. This contraction of deposits and of their velocity, precipitated by distress selling, causes
(3) A fall in the level of prices, in other words, a swelling of the dollar. Assuming, as above stated, that this fall of prices is not interfered with by reflation or otherwise, there must be
(4) A still greater fall in the net worths of business, precipitating bankruptcies and
(5) A like fall in profits, which in a “capitalistic,” that is, a private-profit society, leads the concerns which are running at a loss to make
(6) A reduction in output, in trade and in employment of labor. These losses, bankruptcies, and unemployment, lead to
(7) Pessimism and loss of confidence, which in turn lead to
(8) Hoarding and slowing down still more the velocity of circulation. The above eight changes cause
(9) Complicated disturbances in the rates of interest, in particular, a fall in the nominal, or money, rates and a rise in the real, or commodity, rates of interest.” (Econometrica, 1933, Volume 1, p. 342)
This process is starkly apparent in the US data. After 1930, everyone in the USA was trying to reduce debt–but the debt to GDP ratio rose nonetheless.
US Debt to GDP Ratio 1925-1935
The ratio rose because prices fell by up to 10 percent per annum, and real GDP also collapsed by as much as 13 percent in one year (the GDP data is yearly and therefore understates the steepness of the fall in output). Attempts by individuals to pay down their debts were swamped by prices and incomes that fell faster still. The phenomenon that, as he put it, “the more debtors pay, the more they owe”, deserves to be named “Fisher’s Paradox” in his honour.
Falling Prices and Falling Output
That train of events is now quite possibly unfolding in the USA right now–and from a level of debt that is twice as high (relative to its GDP) as it was in 1929.
America's modern debt bubble dwarfs the one that caused the Great Depression
Fisher’s explanation of how the Great Depression came about was one of the great, neglected contributions to economic theory. There are two reasons why it was neglected–one tragic, the other scandalous.
The tragedy was that, prior to the Great Depression, Fisher was the pre-eminent academic cheerleader for the boom of the Roaring Twenties, and he had also invested his fortune in margin-loan-financed stock purchases. His reputation was destroyed when, in the middle of the market crash, he made the following pronouncement (which was duly reported in the New York Times):
“Stock prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau.
I do not feel that there will soon, if ever, be a fifty or sixty point break below present levels, such as Mr. Babson has predicted. I expect to see the stock market a good deal higher than it is today within a few months.”
His fortune was destroyed by the margin calls that came with the collapse. Having made a tidy sum by inventing the Rolodex and selling it to the Rand Corporation, his paper worth (in 2000 dollar terms) was well over $100 million. He lost the lot and was only saved from bankruptcy by his wife’s sister’s wealth, and her forgiveness of his debts to her on her deathbed.
In a reverse of the old parable about “the boy who cried wolf”, Fisher’s accurate diagnosis of the causes of the Great Depression was tainted by his previous failure to see it coming, and by his misleading assurances to the public that there was nothing to worry about.
The scandal is that, after he dramatically revised his approach to economics and came up with a cogent explanation of the process that could cause a Depression, his work was ignored by the economics profession because it was incompatible with the concept of equilibrium. I will cover this issue in much more detail in my next Debtwatch Report in December, but here is a quick precis.
The dominant economic theory of the 1920s assumed that the economy was always in overall equilibrium, and would tend back to equilibrium from any disturbance. Fisher subscribed to this belief, and developed the application of this theory to finance.
In the early 1930s, chastened and effectively bankrupted, Fisher came to appreciate that a misguided belief in equilibrium was the reason he had failed to anticipate the Great Depression. He reasoned that, even if the economy did in fact tend towards equilibrium, in the real world “New disturbances are, humanly speaking, sure to occur, so that, in actual fact, any variable is almost always above or below the ideal equilibrium”.
The world therefore had to be analysed using disequilibrium thinking–and using this insight, he developed the debt-deflation analysis, in which he reasoned that the “two dominant factors” that cause a Depression are “over-indebtedness to start with and deflation following soon after”.
Following Fisher’s lead would thus have required the economics profession to abandon the practice it had developed–of analysing the economy as if it were always in equilibrium–and take on a new, challenging approach of modelling disequilibrium processes.
Faced with this choice, the economics profession did what it has always to date done–it obfuscated and bifurcated. The dominant majority of the profession ignored Fisher’s arguments, and stuck with the familiar tools of equilibium analysis; only a minority (most notably Hyman Minsky) heeded Fisher’s warning.
Today, economists trained in the majority tradition—who almost certainly didn’t study Fisher in their university courses, and who certainly didn’t follow his guidance in their economic analysis—continue to analyse the economy using models that presume it tends towards equilibrium.
Worse still, these models ignore completely the issue that Fisher emphasised was the most important one—the level of private debt. And economists who believe in them occupy all the official positions in Treasuries and Central Banks around the world. Politicians following their advice can be forgiven for not realising that they are being misled, because even those economists themselves don’t realise it (though they are beginning to appreciate this lesson the hard way–see Australia’s RBA Governor Glenn Stevens’s comment yesterday that the current financial crisis has taught Central Bankers that they “could have a more conservative attitude to debt build-up”.
The economic crisis we are now experiencing is in no small measure a product of that academic decision to ignore debt, and to model the economy as if it is always in equilibrium. Had economics instead followed Fisher’s lead, our economic managers would have been attuned to the dangers of excessive debt, and aware of the tendency for the economy to undergo bouts of debt-financed exuberance that drive it far from equilibrium–and potentially to the brink of a debt-deflation.
With the apparent development of a deflationary trend in America, we may now have taken the first step over that precipice.






November 20th, 2008 at 11:19 am
Check out
John Quiggin’s M1 Money Multiplier Chart
Read the post here
November 20th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Economists seem to have declared equilibrium as debt increasing in real terms by 6% pa.
It still seems to be lost on a lot of people that this is totally changing the characteristics of the economy. I read a commentary on what had gone wrong with all the risk analysis. Rather than considering that the economy is totally different than 20 years ago, as in more debt, they assumed that it was a problem with the prior assumptions on risk. Any model that doesn’t take total debt into account is not going to work as a reasonable assumption is that as the debt goes to infinity probability of economic failure goes to 1.
A nice analogy might be algal blooms in a lake. Start with a pristine lake and risk is close to zero, and for only small blooms. Then start adding nutrients from sewage and fertiliser runoff. Saying that the risk was low because we didn’t see anything 20 years ago is irrelevant. In the same way we’ve changed the basic ecology of our economy.
November 20th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Steve
One thing I simply cannot understand is how people can clain that a system which has parameters increasing exponentially can be in equilibrium. They must be working with some other definition of “equilibrium”. They even have a requirement for continual “growth” so their requirement is definitely not even a system in equilibrium.
Perhaps before there learn sufficient mathematics to model the real economic system they should learn about the english language and logic. A system is not “in equilibrium” just because they declare it to be.
November 20th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Steve,
Excellent post.
Your idea of the equilibrium paradigm being prevalent in economic thought is pertinent. Seemingly not a day goes by that we are not treated to some reference in the media to “automatic stabilisers”.
In terms of trying not to ignore debt, would it be appropriate that countries evaluate and publish their national net worth, rather that GDP (or GNI) ? Or should GNI only be expressed in terms of the gross national interest payment ? (ie. a multiply, hopefully, of the interest paid)
Cheers,
Keith
November 20th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
This woke me up from my slumber in front of CNBC last night:
Steve Liesman, Senior Economics Reporter CNBC
Watch here from 6:45
November 20th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
From reading The Age of Turbulance, it’s pretty clear that Greenspan saw a crash coming. He couldn’t match productivity gains with spending levels, but didn’t act because he couldn’t figure out why (using the orthordox framework).
November 20th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Steve, is it accurate to compare and correlate the CPI decrease of 1938 to present CPI ,inferring deflation similarities ?
Has the weighted CPI basket not altered significantly over this period?
The volatility of Oil/Energy prices which is factored into CPI calculations today was non existent in 1930’s.
Are we comparing ‘apples to apples” with respect to debt-deflationary measurement.
November 20th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Steve
I agree, I walked out of mid-90s economic lectures disgusted with the lack of rigour & stance allowing “in the long run” as a mode of analysis.
However, I don’t see that the current RBA posits equilibrium style analysis.
Further, while always possible, I’m currently accepting that the causes of the Great Depression being **highly related** to excess capacity within the United State of America, the protectionist Hawkley-Smoot Act, and the response of other nation states imposing tariff on American Exports.
This caused America, which had generated excess capacity through over investment, on the back of (unjustified) expectations of further growth despite it’s over-capacity on a global scale.
When America was subsequently forced to resolve its over-capacity within its own borders, unemployment went to 25%.
I understand the importing nations, such as Germany, did not suffer as much as America, because – having imposed retaliatory tariffs – were subject to insuffificent supply, rather than the american excess supply.
China, is of course, the comparable situation today. Any tendency towards protectionism will not favour the Chinese as they have not re-balanced their economy.
The stock market reaction to false assumptions about the future was not so much debt related as simply wrong. Although the debt made it far worse, by wiping out lots of equity.
However, the excess capacity, the cause of the real pain in the real economy, was not reduced in line with the drop in stock prices.
Here in Australia, BHP has stated that it will not drop production even though it is accepting customers request to defer 5% of contracted deliveries. BHP, as lowest total cost producer, will continue to pump out iron ore at $11-$15 / tonne, and acknowledge that current spot market prices may be lowered from the current $70 / tonne.
Plenty of higher cost & highly leveraged miners should be worried, but our real economy will continue along with production at current levels. Of course, BHP shares have and should have fallen following the news.
Fisher was clearly wrong and should have seen the risks in excess capacity within the United States. The political response exacerbated the situation.
But, I don’t think it has been shown that the debt present caused the crisis.
—-
Separately, the measure of CPI. Have you made any allowance for the substitution of alternative goods ? Some make an argument that the adjustments for:
* substitution
* hedonics
mean that CPI better reflects the cost of survival rather than a parity measure of a defined level of living.
To the degree the above is true, I still greatly look forward to your post that includes aspects of Climate Change and increased cost of energy (on the current Peak Oil pathway).
Best Regards and continued thanks for your wonderful contribution as an alternative voice.
Furball.
November 20th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
It would be interesting to see how to factor in a policy response like this one into a deterministic Minsky Model that had passed the “tipping point” (of no return?):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act
November 20th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Steve,
How does one allow for a policy response in a Minsky model that presumably argues policy has no role once past the ‘tipping point’ of no return…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act
Furball
November 20th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Hi Steve – love your work!
Question for you – either here in or in a future blog (I’ll still be reading). The effect of protectionism on the Great Depression – obviously Smoot-Hawley caused a decline in world trade (ergo was a major contributor to the global spread of the depression itself), but what was its financial effect on the US?
One could argue that since protectionism increases prices on imports, it might have an inflationary impact that offsets somewhat the deflationary spiral that was already in effect in the US by 1930, and therefore it may actually have had a positive effect on the macroeconomy. I’m just speculating here – any idea what effect trade restrictions themselves did have on the debt deflation of the 1930s?
Keep up the good work!
November 20th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Furball, I totally agree on comparing China today with the US back then, however US then, was much bigger in terms of GDP and had a currency backed by gold. The US today are like Germany back then, more or less. I really think the dollar strenght are temporary, due to deleveraging and selling. I think inflation will heat up again, and that we will be in “2003 again”, sooner than we know it, maybe we already are there. I even think this time, there is so much cash out there, that the move to inflation will be sudden and big.
Even the official numbers says deflation, it is more the rate of decline that matters, as the official numbers understate inflation. The last time something like this happened was in 1980-1981
November 20th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
To see why this is like 1980-1981 more than 1929 or any time like that, look at the shareprice of the railroad company union pacific, and look at the alternate data they provide at shadowstats.
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=UNP#symbol=UNP;range=my
You can’t see the graph before 1980, but if you could, you would see that it would be similar to what have lead up to today. Railroad shares is perfect for getting the shadowstats type of CPI inflation.
November 20th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Dear Steve,
Excellent analysis as always.
Please tell us the answer. I seem to remember you saying there really isn’t an answer and we must suffer the consequences, if your predictions are to be realized.
Is this the beginning of the end for Western Capitalism? Were Marx and Engels correct? But how can we trust the government to run the economy? Or are we perhaps going to follow the likes of the Egyptians for example who once had it all and now have very little because over consumption is simply not sustainable. Just as many humans today have lost the ability to be output-positive-units of production (self sustaining), maybe one day humans will adapt and be rid of the greed gene…
Am I right to be stocking up on canned food and some choice weapons?
Please advise, this is all too much!
November 21st, 2008 at 12:59 am
I think the CPI used now, as mentioned before is not a valid measure, since it no longer measured what it measured before, therefore comparing to the times when things were measured correctly no longer is valid. However, I read an article by the “practical”, and “common sense”, guy Mish:)
I then read this article that scared me, as it is a total proof of treasuries being a bubble:
What treasury bubble:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=MY&date=20081112&id=9371613
This article by Mish just adds to articles written like this: “what housing bubble, or what commodity bubble”, just under the height of each boom, I just can’t understand how Mish could see the housing bubble, but miss the treasury bond bubble.
Yes people were writing these kind of articles, just to justify the bubble they were riding.
Why don’t Ben Bernanke own anything but US TIPS,Large cap stocks, Chinese stocks, and Canadian government bonds, he even used to have Phillips Morris? Why have Canadian government bonds, and US STRIPS if he is a big believer in the US treasury?
Maybe he knows better than Mish, and the other hedge fund guys rushing into the false safety of US government bonds. The truth is that very much of the US stocks now, such as railroad stocks are moving identical to treasuries. Treasuries gain 5 %, railroad loose 5 %, so on.. Earlier this year, commodity related stocks were moving with a little multiplier compared to treasury bonds, but that multiplier is now gone, and on a lot of stocks the multiplier is so that treasuries gain 5 %, stocks loose 2 %, that suggest, treasuries are totally expensive, because of the irrational fear. While stocks are cheap.
I think what I disagree most with Steve on, is that debt deflation will be deflationary. I think it will happen through inflation, even hyperinflation is possible.
November 21st, 2008 at 1:20 am
In (3) Fisher indicated there would be a fall in prices…..assuming….they are not interfered with by reflation. Some analysts are projecting that in 1-2 years, the efforts of the Fed will gain the upperhand and reflation will occur.
Will you be discussing this?
November 21st, 2008 at 6:59 am
Yes. I don’t think the Fed has a snowflake’s chance in hell of starting inflation by monetary means, once deflation really takes hold.
The empirical record of monetary expansion in causing inflation from a deflationary start is pretty bad. The most recent such attempt was in Japan, where in one year–from memory 2002–the Japanese Central Bank increased base money by close to 30 percent–only to see the rate of deflation increase slightly the year after.
The problem is that in a true debt-deflationary event, recipients of government printed money send it straight to the banks to reduce their debt, and the banks hang on to it to improve their solvency.
And the scale of government money printing is dwarfed by the scale of the debt involved–US private debt is recorded at US$41 trillion (lots more will turn up I’m sure when history shines its torch on this period), and making a dent in that would triple the US government’s already extreme debt burden.
The only effective way to cause inflation is by deliberately increasing corporate costs in a way that forces them to put up prices, and also guarantees that consumers will continue being able to purchase commodities.
That method is to deliberately increase wages across the board (well, excepting corporate CEOs!), and let it be known that putting up prices to compensate is OK (but any more than compensation and we’ll throw the book at you).
Of course, that option depends on the capacity to orchestrate a centralised wage increase, which is a capacity that Australia had, but sacrificed in the fetish for competition policy.
November 21st, 2008 at 7:05 am
Hi imbankrupt,
My feeling is, from the data and my own dynamic modelling, that this level of debt is simply too great to be overcome by any level of pump priming while maintaining the current level of prices.
Since I don’t have any confidence in the capacity of our economic managers to engineer inflation, the only solution–and one that could be combined with setting up a post-crisis financial system–is debt moratoria. This debt should never have been issued, contributed nothing to world economic capacity (expensive assets are not more productive assets), and attempting to get out of the crisis while still honouring this debt is futile.
But of course widespread moratoria would bankrupt most financial institutions that weren’t already bankrupt, and given securitisation the pain would spread well beyond the financial sector. So this remedy is only likely to be contemplated when everything else has failed, and above all else after the financial system has already imploded.
The USA is much closer to this situation than we are, so in one sense they are closer to the possibility of a rescue than we are too. But even there it will take a couple of years of really bad economic performance before something as drastic as debt moratoria will be politically palatable.
November 21st, 2008 at 8:52 am
Steve, if not pump priming, how about a War between the US and Iran, or someone else? That would get things going again would it not?
Or how about a War between Iran or someone else, or a war involving Russia? I can imagine the commodity producers might get desperate in a situation like this?
November 21st, 2008 at 9:14 am
So why not print million dollar notes and hand them out to the public? Surely that would slay the deflation dragon?
November 21st, 2008 at 9:43 am
Printing money to re-inflate has never worked. It has always made the situation worse.
If the Government is handing out free money. Why work? Production and GDP falls further and faster.
Also the US currency would collapse and their lenders would pull out all their money (at huge losses) leaving the US in a gigantic hole. Starvation, civil war, total collapse of the system.
Very Bad idea to hand out free money!!!!
November 21st, 2008 at 9:47 am
But let’s say the US can’t have deflation, and honor their debt at the same time? That deflation is just making the US go bankrupt, they are not savers, and creditors, like Japan
November 21st, 2008 at 10:22 am
Why couldn’t a central bank simply “print” (electronically generate) some fixed amount of money for every dollar that everyone earns, and hand it out to them? That would have the same affect as coordinating wage rises across the economy, no?
Steve, how much inflation do you think we need in order to ensure debts remain payable?
November 21st, 2008 at 10:49 am
Steve,
Would an Global incremental debt strategy provide a “softer” landing? What if the G20 instead of issuing “announacables” agreed to a concrete actionable plan whereby governments and individuals each year over the next 5-10 years reduced debt in particular private debt.
Bank a fixed percentage of money/income to reduce debt plus continue to spend to maintain productivity and a sutainable level employment is maintained to fend off a depression. A recession we can all pull through as difficult as it maybe together, a depression well…….?
November 21st, 2008 at 10:51 am
Steve,
Would an Global incremental debt strategy provide a “softer” landing? What if the G20 instead of issuing “announcecables” agreed to a concrete actionable plan whereby governments and individuals each year over the next 5-10 years reduced debt in particular private debt.
Bank a fixed percentage of money/income to reduce debt plus continue to spend to maintain productivity and a sutainable level employment is maintained to fend off a depression. A recession we can all pull through as difficult as it maybe together, a depression well…….?
November 21st, 2008 at 11:19 am
Bullturnedbear,
Printing money is a bad idea in any normal economic environment, but if you’re stuck in a deflationary spiral, why not?
Please explain to me why Bernanke is wrong:
November 21st, 2008 at 11:25 am
We’re all f*cked
November 21st, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Hi Carbonsink,
I can’t explain Helicopter Ben. The other times in history where the governments have printed huge amounts of currency to buy their way out of debt have been an absolute failure. Germany failed. Zimbabwe is a total failure. The people are now starving and almost all business has collapsed.
Sure they got inflation (bags of it) but they got economic collapse along with it.
Maybe America and Ben thinks they are above history?
November 21st, 2008 at 12:52 pm
The obvious problem with printing money is that you then have to give it to people, generally for no good reason at all. Once that happens it is very difficult to stop giving it away, as then people can’t pay rent or buy food or consumer goods. So it continues with ever increasing inflation, helped along by the community view that inflation should be matched by wage increases.
Without a plan to fix other problems it may help but it may also not do much. One problem with dealing with the end of debt driven demand is that it has given us a false sense of affluence and making people accept that they are less affluent is not easy. What usually reduces affluence is unemployment.
November 21st, 2008 at 1:21 pm
The words “up sh*t creek in a barbed-wire boat” spring to mind…
November 21st, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Love the debate about deflation/hyper inflation and which will occur. I am opting for deflation but also watch out for reduction in wages. I think when that starts to occur we know that we are in a depression.
We are starting to see some evidence of this now with the US CPI although that number to a large extent reflects the reduction in energy costs.
But I am curious about the apparent understanding that Germany somehow missed the depression or received a reduced effect.
German unemployment went from 650K in September of 1928 to 6100K in January of 1933 which is when the Nazi party took over. They seem to have copped it pretty good.
Plus they had the added bonus of hyperinflation where workers had to be let out during breaks to buy necessities otherwise the price for them would be so much more by the time they stopped work.
Not to want to praise the Nazi party any but they then implemented price controls and embarked on an infrastructure building programme which made things better for a bit until WWII started.
November 21st, 2008 at 5:44 pm
This is a bit of topic, but can any one shed some light on the fact that as we have just reached the position where the market is lower than any other time except the depression and today (friday 21-11-2008) the radio was not only full of people trying to talk the market up but actually trying to get the ABC (morning radio national)to put on the good news (is there any!). Anyhow as the market was doing one of it’s dives this morning, as it does after Wall St dives the night before, all of a sudden right on 1pm some good news comes in and the market roars up. What was the good news? Can anyone post it to this group? Do we now have a Government plunge protection team like the US is rumoured to have? I’m feeling good now though because Gerry Harvey and Craig James told me so…. good old OZ is looking so great so much better than the rest of the globe. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/breakfast/stories/2008/2425761.htm
Come to think of it I haven’t heard much from Steve on Aunty lately.
November 21st, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Kevin,
Thanks for refining the point on Germany vs USA. I love additional information and am well aware that my understanding is incomplete.
It is worth noting that:
* The U.S. had not returned to 1929’s GNP for over a decade and still had an unemployment rate of about 15% in 1940 — down from 25% in 1933. **Despite deficit spending etc**
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
However, I still suspect that the massive Keynesian war preparations undertaken by the Nazi government could not have occurred without the Hawley-Smoot legislation & protectionist responses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany
Also, think that US’ position of excess capacity is akin to China’s position.
Happy to hear from an expert on the matter (please !).
—
However, for Steve, Bureau of Labor Statistics systematic under-estimation of Inflation per:
*substition
*hedonics
Further, while Minsky’s stuff can be followed as a logical process in the extreme, perhaps someone could point me to the part of the theory that:
* allows for policy effects
* determines the ‘tipping point’
See, many systems are unstable in certain parts of the function’s range. The trick is knowing whether the system is relevant and even so, what the correct parameters would be.
I doubt Minsky had the compute capacity to analyse such detailed computational systems as complexity / chaos / etc.
Furball
November 21st, 2008 at 8:30 pm
It appears that the US federal reserve have commenced a policy of quantitative easing, given that fed. funds rate target is dysfunctional, i.e., price targeting of money has been replaced with targeting the quantity of base money in the money supply, i.e., inflating the money supply. However, the velocity of money is collapsing, i.e., the money supply will increase but velocity of money will not. This is is one factor as to why inflation not likely, but rather deflation is the likely outcome. One other reason is discussed below.
The post WWI German economy and the now Zimbabwean economy are structurally very different to the US economy, or in fact, to any modern deeply industrialised economy.
The two former economies had their money supply inflated, whilst their underlying economies did not economically have any breadth or depth to them, i.e., no industrial complex. In other words, those economies had a significant source of capital, but no sink to where this capital could productively be directed towards. So more money just ended up chasing the limited number of capital and consumer goods, thus creating price inflation.
The US economy, on the other hand, has a great deal of economic breadth and depth to it’s industrial complex, where this capital can be productively directed towards. That is, there are sinks to where this capital can be productively directed towards, for example, this money can be used to pay down debt on assets held.
The helicopter Ben theory (quantitative easing) has already been put in practice by Japan during the past decade. It did *not* work.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Hi Furball
I dont’t think that you have taken anything I wrote personally which is great!!!! I love the fact that everyone here feels free to write their point of view right, wrong, indifferent, I disagree with it, whatever!!!!
So rare these days, bless the internet although we could all do without the soon to be implemented filter but that is a debate for another site and another time.
In regard to Germany pre Nazi party I also forgot to add that they were lent money by the USA under plans initiated in 1924 (Dawes Plan) and 1929 (Young Plan) (yeah sure lend someone that can’t pay you already even more money, great idea) and the good ole US called them in on 90 day notice which lead to Germany’s economic probs although the reparations Germany was expected to pay had a great deal to do with it too.
Steve-O made it to the Australian my lad! Well done but I was unaware that you supported debt moratiums (did I spell that right????)(do you reckon I is stalkin you :p). Aren’t you concerned that this will just reignite the debt bubble such as hell man I am debt free now I can afford to take on more debt and invest some money and maybe get myself out of this debt I already owe? Humans tend to look for the easy way out don’t you think?
Can’t say that I support that mostly from a human point of view. I think those of us that have debt need to take resposnibility for that although I accept your point of view that banks and financical institutions should not get out of it scott free either as they encourage people to take on too much debt. Dunno what the solution is but there must be some sort of balance between the two.
Last thing, I promise. Any chance you might be coming to us poor backward folk in Melbourne? It would be great to hear you speak and maybe catch up with you.
Anyway enough from me and keep up the good work all of you!!!!! Love to read your thoughts.
November 21st, 2008 at 9:39 pm
I love all the theorising and discussion.
Despite all the “good ideas” I am very sceptical that any government or economist can solve this problem.
Because of greed and risk taking too much debt has accumulated. Because of fear and risk aversion the debt is deflating.
This process will run its course and many “bail outs” or “new policies” will come and go. After the debt deflation has run its course the economies will recover and the world will point to some economist or war as the saviour. But my gut tells me that it will just be the psychology turning back to optimism again that will turn this ship around.
RBA Bosses or MPs telling us to be positive will not be enough. We will all have to go through it and feel like crap for a long time before we can rise up again! That’s why the great depression took so long to pass as did the two depressions in the 1800s.
Most people won’t or don’t accept that this event will even be like the great depression. My fear is that it will be worse. In terms of the mania (markets, property and debt) to the upside it was much worse, so that tells me the snap back to the downside will be harder too.
November 21st, 2008 at 10:12 pm
10 year yields at 10 year bonds are now at around the same level as the bottom in 2003, this is extreme risk aversion and a flight to safe papers, not deflation, yet. Once this extreme level of risk aversion fade, I think it will be back to normal, with rising inflation, and rising yields.
November 21st, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Furball, The debt to germany was a fraction of the surplus in the US Economy, I think China have a 10 -20 times smaller surplus in relation to the debt level the US have to them. That is a big difference. But the link have some truth. I think the US could morph into germany and have a middle class wipe out like germany had both in 1932 hyperinflation, and in the earlier weimar hyperinflation.
I think the debt the baby boomer generation in the west, the most ignorant generation ever born have ranked on, is similar to the war debt germany had after WW1. In a deflation this debt, and also pensions to to the older,becomes impossible to service for the younger because of demographics ,it must happen through default or inflation.
November 21st, 2008 at 10:32 pm
Steve,
As a warm-up for your big deflation/inflation piece. I greatly enjoy your blogs on economic issues. As you have made clear, economics is by no means a unified science; rather it is based upon a number of unverified theories which are the subject of debate. Actually, not a science at all.
Therefore, before you bury yourself in considerations such as “Global Warming” I ask you to look at the politics behind this thrust. Computer modeling also is a relatively new “science” with no serious track record. For many it has become a religion. Unbelievably, many disciples of this new religion have the audacity to charge non-believers as deniers, even though the deniers might be very serious physical scientists and the disciples pure lay – albeit with great political influence.
As a serious scientist (meaning in an established discipline) I am very skeptical about the man-made crisis, dependent upon CO2 generation. Indeed, having lived through the 70’s – when we were supposed to be on the cusp of the next ice age – I am pretty skeptical of the whole global warming thesis.
This is not to doubt that this current topical and trendy scare will have great economic influence – and perhaps that is all that you will consider and dwell upon. But, while knowing little of the science, I hope that you do not add your considerable – and growing – influence by unequivocally backing the current consensus without learning the science (and nonsense; or non-science) behind many of the assumptions. There appears to be little doubt that this flawed thesis will add to economic costs, but little benefit will ensue from the likes of a carbon tax. [Note; in my opinion, this is a completely distinct concept from our totally unsustainable destruction of the environment, a distinction which the global warmists would like to blur.]
November 21st, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Well now it’s clear. The best course will be to get loaded up to the gunnels on debt and wit for forgiveness. Hallelujah!!
November 21st, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Well now it’s clear. The best course will be to get loaded up to the gunnels on debt and wait for forgiveness. Hallelujah!!
November 21st, 2008 at 11:09 pm
My respect to all of you economic gurus as I am not an economist, but I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the concept known as “investing”.
According to wikipedia:
“Money” is anything that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts.
Money is something you receive as a reward (payment) for the services you provide for the company you are working for. To receive money you need to provide services by doing some work and you get the money as a reward. The more you work or the more useful services/goods you provide the more money you should get. This is so fundamental (at least how it is “supposed” to work).
But see, there is also a concept of “Investing” in which you can make virtually unlimited amount of money without doing anything at all.
So what would people prefer: work hard to get money or “invest” in shares and properties, then do nothing and again get money? What would you choose? What would the average human choose? What would the greedy rich people choose? I’ve seen many medium and lower class people thinking that they must invest in a property soon and see in this the ultimate resolution to all their financial problems as property prises you know always go up. This is what the people have become …
So the very existence of “investing” makes money meaningless as a way to get rewarded for your work as some people can get them even in bigger amounts by simply doing nothing … so why work?
This is how you end up with people that focus on how to get even more money with almost no work at all. And this is actually normal as people will always do whatever is easier. So tell me why I should work my whole life, when I can work for a few years and then “invest” in something and leave happily. And the horrible thing is that those people are currently rewarded for investing, which is so useless for the society, civilization, humanity and the real economy simply because those “investors” will not invest in useful projects but will invest in fast and easy returns through real estate bubbles. For which bubble the banks are also to blame becuase they have provided the homeloans to others that actually need where to live and were forsed to pay the “investor” prices.
Someone said that if the government starts printing money and handing them to the people – then people will stop working i.e. stop being useful to the real economy and guess what will happen with the real economy? This is no different than providing means for people to “invest” and they will do the same – stop working or stop doing something that really has a value and “invest” and keep inflating the bubble so the investment is profitable. Well guess what will happen to the real economy …
I feel that it will be much fair if the amount of the return of investment is somehow limited by the government or by some central financial institution (say the ‘Central Bank of the Earth’) and everything in excess is put into this bank and used for the good for humanity. And I strongly believe there should be a maximum salary allowed by law, the same way there is a minimum salary.
This would be a system built to benefit the “good” people, not like the current system which seems to benefit the “bad” and greedy people.
If this all seems a bit too much for you, please ignore me. Otherwise I hope that there may be some clever economists here that may find some of my ideas “interesting” and not absurd. But extraordinary problems require extraordinary solutions and from what I have read so far the crisis the whole world is about to experiense is indeed going to be quite extraordinary …
November 22nd, 2008 at 12:42 am
A thing that I have noticed is the comparison to the Nikkei and the Dow Jones CPI adjusted charts.
But what is happening now, is that in FEB 23 2003 the nikkei was at 8363, and dow jones was at 7891.
Now the nikkei is at 7910, and dow jones is at 7552.
It appears the relationship between these two indexes is relatively stable, and no matter what the CPI charts show, they are behaving as if they relatively speaking is at around the same value. I know that if the dow jones now had been as expensive relative to the Nikkei as the debtdeflation charts are showing, then the dow jones would relatively speaking had fallen much more than the nikkei during this credit crisis.
Meaning the Nikkei, relatively speaking should had suffered a much smaller loss than the dow jones index. But this is not happening, they are trading as they are worth the same.
Now another thing, since the dow hit 10000, and down, there is a relationship between the dollar and the index, because the dow was cheap, the index is falling relatively little compared to the strengthening of the dollar, meaning if you bought an US index fund in Australia, you would not had lost any money, even if the dow jones are down to 7555, the same in Japan. However the foreign exchanges, especially the bubbles in india, china and other foreign exchanges you would had lots lots of money, due to the “compression factor”. the lack of a compression factor, suggest the lack of a bubble.
Meaning that in 90 japan had a stock market bubble, with a average P/E of around 40, dwarfing, the level in the US now, as the stock market in the us, from how the market behaves are only 1/5 of the price level when the Japanese debt deflation started
November 22nd, 2008 at 1:04 am
Yes, Mish thinks the US is in deflation and David Merkel thinks it’s the start of a depression: http://alephblog.com/2008/11/20/its-called-a-depression/. They’re certainly in for a tough time.
But my concern is what will happen here. The US started with a housing crash and spread as the investment banks buckled. Here the finance sector went first, housing is now slipping and our market has been worse than theirs.
My view is: watch the banks! If their share prices keep slipping we could be in for something pretty nasty, but if they get through the next 6 months it may not be too bad.
November 22nd, 2008 at 1:24 am
If you look at the yield curve, it was similar in 2003, and all the deflation guys were saying the same thing back then, actually the 10 year yield curve are now identical to what turned out to be the bottom in 2003, and it never happened any deflation. Will they be right this time around?
November 22nd, 2008 at 5:51 am
Could the government create money and use it to pay construction workers for productive infrastructure projects? Unemployment amongst construction workers is likely to be high, and they could be paid lower wages. This combination would provide much-needed infrastructure cheaply, with no increase in public debt and have some inflationary effect.
November 22nd, 2008 at 10:17 am
Hi Furball,
Thanks for your contribution covering the real geoeconomic causes of the Great Depression.
I’m curious though, if you see China as analagous to the US in 1929 (ie the global production powerhouse with accompanying surpluses) then why is it you see the Australian economy bubbling along as this global adjustment takes place?
By your definition of the Depression it is going to be the surplus economies of the world that bear the brunt of real economic pain as this global rebalancing works through.
That means China in particular is in the cross-hairs of massive real economic surplus production collapse.
The Chinese will of course respond with vast attempts to prop up external-led growth, indeed they are already with new export subsidies and a Renminbi that has suddenly stopped appreciating (and will no doubt soon fall) but how can they succeed when US consumer demand is lower for good and the US dollar is also going to fall with the flood of new public debt.
How can you be sanguine about the Australian economy’s prospects in this circumstance? It will decimate the resource sector, Perth and Brisbane will have historic budget and housing busts.
And so will Canberra, limiting fiscal policy options too.
This will then plays into the huge consumer debt levels nationally and Steve’s thesis takes over.
Balmain Bear
November 22nd, 2008 at 11:06 am
Hi Chris,
I think there is wisdom in what you say. When money is strongly linked to productivity, the economy makes sense. When this link is broken we have a problem.
I am not an economist (I think I missed my calling – this stuff is really very interesting) but I became interested in what was happening economically when I read some material about financial derivatives in 2005. The material was written by a clever ratbag called LaRouche and his theory at the time was that the growth of “money” in the derivatives economy would eventually wash into the real economy, causing hyperinflation. As it happens, this looks largely to have occurred, with exception that ecomomic mechanisms have prevented hyperinflation (for now) by putting a stick in the spokes of the financial derivatives market.
Behind all this is the question, why has an enormous market for financial derivatives come into being? My pet theory is excessive profits. US profit growth in the period from 2001 to 2007 was running at somthing like 15% per annum (wages were growing at about 2-3%). I tentatively suggest that this profit growth was driven by exploitative globalisation (involving the misdirection of the benefits of globalisation into corporate profits and Chinese government coffers rather than advancing workers material wellbeing). I further suggest that the Chinese government, especially, has been complicit in this, motivated by the desire to use the tax take they receive as a strategic weapon for international political purposes.
On this basis the real winners seem to be the Chinese ruling elite (oh, my red roots are showing) who have essentially “dealt themselves in” to a position of great power on the world stage (I suspect they are now in a position where they can influence US domestic and international policy through threatening to manipulate their holdings of US debt).
Please note that this is half informed speculation rather than verifiable fact (love the internet). I wonder though, if there are any lessons from international political history that might inform us as much as lessons from economic history.
November 22nd, 2008 at 11:54 am
re: “If you look at the yield curve, it was similar in 2003, and all the deflation guys were saying the same thing back then, actually the 10 year yield curve are now identical to what turned out to be the bottom in 2003, and it never happened any deflation. Will they be right this time around?”
prudentsaver, back in 2003 we didn’t have a massive world wide housing bubble at this point, we now do. This time round, there is no buble that the Fed, or any other central bank for that matter, can use to re-inflate.
It is not prudent to cherry-pick economic data as that may lead to conclusions that are a fallacy.
November 22nd, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Steve, I can see why you keep referring back to the Great Depression, but I think comparisons with the oil shocks of the seventies would be better. At that time a major disequilibrium (disequilibrium seems to be the word of the moment) occurred between the oil importing countries and the oil exporting countries. The accumulating cash surplus was lent back to third world governments in the name of development grants which of course was pissed against the wall in largely unproductive programs. In fact, the money was channelled into greedy leadership cartels (western democracies don’t have a monopoly on greed).and ended up in Swiss bank accounts. When the wheels fell off, the third world countries had to have their debt forgiven to avoid an utter collapse of a magnitude we are now seeing in the west.. And I don’t think the Swiss were troubled for the money back as I remember it. Suddenly the IMF cracked down on lending so all the surplus money had to go somewhere else and fortunately the west was just cranking up deregulation of the banking system. Volia! We had lending into the corporate excesses of the Bond and Skase era and when that collapsed it was domestic housing and share markets. The point is that money has to go somewhere and there are plenty of people happy to make a short term gain. And so again/still in this crisis, we have a trade disequilibrium between the west and middle eastern economies and more recently certain eastern economies, and the cash surplus being lent back into the west for largely unproductive land speculation. Well, its wheels-falling-off-time again and we are writing off debts again. The equilibrium model just cant account for massive disequilibrium in trade and imbalances in currencies. Under floating currencies the current account deficit is supposed to balance itself out but, hello Reserve Bank, hello Treasury, it clearly wasn’t working.
What concerns me is that taxpayers are going to have to pick up the tab to pay out all these foreign debts, but their lending practices were just as culpable and speculative as those issued by western banks which are being punished so much by polpular western sentiment.