Chris Joye comments in his release of the recent RP Data-Rismark index that the news of a 0.7% fall in one month will be “manna from heaven for the housing market bears”. Far be it from me to disappoint him, so thanks for the manna. But what adds spice to the manna is the way that Chris has attempted to rationalize the outcome:
It’s sobering to remember here that we have had 17 consecutive monthly increases in Australian capital city home values. If the sharemarket rose for 17 months straight and then tapered, people would not think twice about. It might be wise to apply the same logic to our housing market.
That comment evinced the following comment on Chris Zdatappone’s report in the Fairfax Press from the reader “Dave”:
If the share market had risen for 17 consecutive months, people would be screaming BUBBLE. Somehow this logic seems to defy Chris Joye … Oh dear.
Oh dear indeed. In a speculative market like the stock market, much of the buying is driven by the belief that prices will continue to rise; as soon as that belief evaporates, buyers become sellers and the price doesn’t “taper”, but plunge. A certain Irving Fisher once commented that “stock prices have reached a permanently high plateau”, only to see them (and his reputation and wealth) evaporate in the ensuing 3 years.
So the hope for Chris Joye is not that house prices will behave like stock market prices, but precisely the opposite. Bears like myself argue that the housing market has indeed become just like the stock market—a place where leveraged speculation in the belief that house prices always rise does far more to explain house price movements than any appeals to “fundamentals”—and this is the main reason that house prices have risen so much in the last two decades.
There is however one important way in which house prices do differ from shares: the first sign of trouble is not a sudden drop in prices, but a fall in the number of sales and an increase in the length of time it takes for properties to sell. That sign was evident in the data from the last year or so, which is why I argued that a fall in house prices was imminent in a previous article on Business Spectator. Now that the data are unequivocal, the following processes are likely.
Firstly, with an increased stock of unsold houses on the market, buyers are likely to take yet more time to make a decision—which will add further to the backlog. If prices are falling, why hurry? The urgency will leave the buy side.
Secondly, so-called investors—whom I prefer to call speculators, since 90% of them have bought existing properties rather than built new ones—will start to consider whether they should swap from the buy side to the sell side. After all, no-one in their right mind buys an investment property in Australia for the rental returns: it’s capital gains or nothing DownUnder. Do you capitalize on gains to date, or hang on hoping that the upward trend will re-assert itself once more?
Given the skewing of our market away from owner-occupiers and towards speculators in the last two decades, this second effect could cause a sudden increase in the number of properties on the market—at just the same time that buyers have become more relaxed about closing a sale. It’s this sort of process in an asset market that is why asset prices don’t “taper”—or “plateau”, to use a word from an earlier time.
I expect these two processes to lead to an accelerating rate of decline in house prices now, as they did in the USA when “Flip That House” ceased being a winning trade.



Noah Cross
“the point was made before on the dubious quality of the ABS stats but you ignored it”
No I didn’t. I probably logged off for a few days or weeks & missed your arguments. Please re-state unless you fear it being discredited.
“The Citi figures come from ABS and RBA and others but they tell another story to the one you see, and as they are professional analysts the quality of their interpretation is better and more credible”
How do you know I am not a professional analyst?
sj
“You must allow for error bb, 25% to 50% error all housing costs data again read the fine print of the ABS”
Are you now deliberately trying to be misleading? As I said now three times, the stat error of 25-50% related to one data point which was not even relevant to my post. The data to which I referred has no recorded stat error probably because the sample size was so large.
If you can’t be bothered to read the link, please don’t bother to comment on it.
bb,
I too have little knowledge of economics, having done Eco 101 long ago, which speaks for itself, although this site has helped to redress that. This is my first post after a year or so of lurking, as they call it.
For some time I have been bemused by your attempts to twist figures to suit your anti-bear (I won’t say ‘bullish’) stance. You’ve now become dismissive and disparaging, while yourself glossing over figures.
This time, I simply cannot see how the ABS stats you’ve quoted, even if believable, which I’ll assume, support your position. The two-years-old figures quoted on the site you linked indicate the average, but are not broken up into time frames or income groups. Mortgages taken out 5 years ago, or even 3 years ago in this apparently (according to you) sustainable bubble-like situation, should constitute a much higher proportion of GROSS average income, since bubble prices have risen in excess of incomes in that period, and rents, what’s more. The MEDIAN percentage figures might be much more indicative, although even they would conceal the full extent of the proportion of gross income going on mortgage payments by those who bought dwellings as occupiers in the last few years, especially first home buyers.
Sure enough, the ABS confirms the above. If you click on to the next ABS page, to Table 10.19, Recent Home Buyers, you learn that the average being paid in 2007-8 (note, this does not mean the mortgage was taken out in those years as respondents may have begun paying within 3 years of the survey) was 24%. Likely it is that for many buyers in the years since the survey the average % is higher than that. Ferb, whom you dismissed, is probably right in saying there are many people on ’30-40%’. It is an AVERAGE, after all. Anecdotal Ferb’s observation may be, but for even one family paying 30-40% of GROSS income the situation is far from ‘hilarious’.
Furthermore, it seems likely, from the evidence, that so called ‘investors’ have been fuelling the recent price increases, taking about 40% of recent credit I believe. It is in the nature of a bubble that only a proportion of asset holders have to begin selling as a result of fear, panic or just plain hard-headed realism or greed for the bubble to begin deflating. Add to the speculators a significant number of buyers who are paying far more than 18% of gross income, more than 24% in fact, a proportion which will of course vary according to interest rates. These are likely to increase after the election, irrespective of any decisions by the RBA. I won’t predict a ‘crash’, as such; but I wouldn’t rule it out as blithely as you on the basis of specious or simplistic arguments.
Excuse bb
Sick to death reading links to other peoples work, with no original independent thinking.
Misleading please check again the ABS data on $30.00 a week to maintane a house without a mortage is that in your 18%?
Expensive wear and tear up keep of a house is forgotten about in your 18%.
Thank you for telling me not to comment.
Makes me realise how bad dumb down this website has become.
You must follow the data of ABS only told by captain bb.
sj,
“Misleading please check again the ABS data on $30.00 a week to maintane a house without a mortage is that in your 18%?
Expensive wear and tear up keep of a house is forgotten about in your 18%.?’
You have once again proven you have not even bothered to read the link….how can you critisise something you do not even read?
bb #66
I note your examples
The S&P 500 had a low yield vs historical 1999
S&P 500 earnings have grown with ~GDP over the past 10 years
The S&P 500 capital price went nowhere for the ten years 1999 – 2009 ~zero growth
Yes the S&P 500 was in a bubble 1999
You have restated my point exactly so it seems we agree… A low yield generally indicates poor ~ zero capital gains for a long time into the future.
macondo,
Thankyou – I am aware the numbers reflect averages.
I am also aware there are differences between households – particularly those who buy recently versus those who bought several years ago.
Now, are you aware this has always been the case? For instance, in 1994, the “average” data would reflect people who recently bought, and would reflect people who bought some time ago?
Yet the data shows the “average” household cost to gross income has not changed one iota since 1994.
How can this be if we have a debt induced bubble?
Good attempt, but you need to try again…..
———-
“Anecdotal Ferb’s observation may be, but for even one family paying 30-40% of GROSS income the situation is far from ‘hilarious’”
I never said people paying 30-40% of gross income did not exist. And I certainly never said it was hilarious.
This is a gross mis-quote.
——
“but I wouldn’t rule it out as blithely as you on the basis of specious or simplistic arguments”
No argument there. The simplistic arguments (ie debt fueled real estate) lead to silly conclusions (property bubbles)
PETER_W
Glad to see you pop by!
I have been spending all afternoon trying to defend the poor old ABS….unbelievable! So it should be nice to have a decent debate.
“A low yield generally indicates poor ~ zero capital gains for a long time into the future.”
How do you explain gold since 1999?
How do you explan the S&P 500 in 1980?
How do you explain Australian housing in 1990?
How do you explain Google when it was a startup (i: no dividends)
With all due respect, I think your statement is incorrect.
bb…the constancy of your notion that 18% of income services housing is not accepted by Nomura Australia economist Stephen Roberts:”House prices were also affecting other parts of the economy. Households forced to pay off large mortgages were ”scrimping and saving”, which was affecting other sectors such as retail sales, he said.”
http://smh.domain.com.au/real-estate-news/one-year-adds-98000-to-house-20100804-11fn7.html?comments=42
House prices and income according to him have moved outside the ABS line and your view of it. But perhaps he is wrong too. This is a real concern when so many qualified people do not have the right research and are not capable of analyzing it well. Surely they will lose billions on behalf of their clients with such bad analysis.
BTW The Citigroup report is called: Brighter Prospects for Aussie Housing in 2009. 8th October 2008 by Shane Lee and is not a bearish analysis of housing.It is quite well balanced and for the investor. It turns out though that their forecast was much too low. It shows how prices have ballooned.
Noah Cross
“the constancy of your notion that 18% of income services housing is not accepted by Nomura Australia economist Stephen Roberts”
Three points
1. It is not my notion that 18% of gross income is used to service a mortgage. It is data sourced from the independant body known as the ABS. The same body Steve Keen, business leaders, the RBA and governments uses for much of their analysis
2. Nowhere in your link or your post does Stephen Roberts refute the data I posted. Granted, he does make very general and unsubstantiated comments about households.
3. It would not surprise me if he was wrong too. We all know how inaccurate economists are when predicting house prices (Steve Keen, Shane Oliver, Gerard Minack etc etc). And yes this is of great concern. Naive people who listen to their views have sold their house (or not bought when they could), costing families hundreds of thousands of dollars.
http://theage.domain.com.au/real-estate-news/one-year-adds-98000-to-house-20100804-11fn7.html
well, if the abs is too be believed, i am screwed and will never own a home.
Noah Cross
btw, you do realise that while trying to discredit the data sourced from the ABS, you are posting charts which are sourced from…..the ABS.
Ferb,
Try not to get too dis-heartened.
I do not know melbourne that well, but a quick serch on domain shows up almost 4000 homes for sale for less than 300k
http://www.domain.com.au/Search/buy/State/VIC/Area/Bayside/East/Geelong-District/Inner-City/Mornington-Peninsula/North/North-East/North-West/Phillip-Island-District/South-East/West/Yarra-Dandenong-Ranges/?from=1&to=300000
bb #82
With regard to wages/GDP linked assets my statement is correct when compared to ~risk free yields.
~risk free yields can rise/fall/stable
Assets prices can rise/fall/stable
36 – 60 month deposits 7%
Mortgage debt 7.25%
Housing 2.5%
Happy to revisit this in 10 years and we can see what the total returns are with 100% accuracy.
noah
If we are now allowed to post thoughts from research houses and investment banks, please see latest research from macquarie Bank link below. A summary
1. Household debt has increased, but lower strucural interest rates have improved servicbility
2. While household debt has increased, so too have househeld assets (excluding the rise in home values)
3. The rise in debt levels has been concentrated in those households with the strongest capacity to service it. This is true in assessing the distribution of debt across different levels of income and age groups. For example, the top two income quintiles are responsible for the bulk of the increase in debt over the last decade
Totally consistent with my post. And remember,
“as they are professional analysts the quality of their interpretation is better and more credible” Source: Noah Cross @75.
http://homeloans.macquarie.com/ve/ZZP613058YL587462S666/VT=0/page=2
Peter_W
“With regard to wages/GDP linked assets my statement is correct when compared to ~risk free yields”
With that I can agree.
I guess where we differ is I beleive there is an imbalance housing. I beleive this because rents are 40% higher today compared to 2005 (in Sydney).
If rents continue to grow at 7% per annum for the next 5 years, then stabilise to nominal wages growth (say 4.5% per annum), the IRR of home-ownership = 7.3%. For an OO, that is an after tax return…which aint bad.
bb #92
If housing prices are weak over 5 – 10 years and the RBA lowers cash rates to prop up prices (as they did in 2009) then fixed rate bonds will also do ok but the AUD will decline (alot) because the AUD cash rate carry trade yield will be eliminated.
An OO will have more AUD’s over 5 – 10 years that purchase less.
Peter_W @ 93
A few ‘if’s there.
Your post reads like “assuming house prices are weak over the next 5-10 years, you will be able to buy a house for less in the future’
I agree.
But I can not see how house prices can be weak while prices = cost of production, and the cost of production is increasing.
18% of Gross income? So what is that of After Tax income in the high twenties on close to 30%?
Rent or mortgage that is a lot. Much worse if for rent.
noah cross,
It has been a lot of fun this afternnon, but I now have to go.
Unfortunately you did not post “the point made before on the dubious quality of the ABS stats”. Or was that your post @ 85?
Either way it has all been good fun.
bb
If it were not for the GFC, I doubt if the structurally low interest rates would have been the case.
Also
This article provides a interesting view on the rich defaulting on their mortgages. Most of it anecdotal , but it takes some fire to have some smoke.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/09/business/economy/09rich.html
bb #94
True a few ‘ifs’
Warren Buffett was correct about the US stockmarket and the low yields 1999… zero capital gain for 10 years (He was investing in bonds and cash)
Glen Stevens has warned Australians against leverageing into property to make money, also at a low yield market price.
We can check the results in 10 years.
bb,
I am not sure what you want to prove…
1. That we should trust ABS data
2. There is no housing bubble (a speculative growth in prices) in Australia
3. The investors don’t care about capital gains but rental income
4. Market is in long-term equilibrium as prices are determined by the cost of production of new houses and demand is stable and growing
5. There will be no price slump
I don’t think that a discussion “bull vs bear” makes much sense as engaging in such a discussion implies that we have a speculative market.
If I have misinterpreted you please correct me.
I may agree with 1 but only after reading the disclaimer the ABS put next to the data in full. Which basically means that the data is rather meaningless for our purposes of tracking small changes.
I will leave 2 and 3 for later. I just want to mention that while concentrating on the American market you haven’t shown that we can’t draw paralells with the European countries. All of them which had experienced a dynamic growth in prices during the boom times before 2008 and then experienced a moderate or severe slump in 2009 and 2010.
In regards to 4 I will repeat myself but the cost of producing houses doesn’t have to be that high if people really only want to have a place to live not a shrine of overconsumption or a speculative asset.
I am not sure about 5 in the short run as it really depends on the unemployment which can be controlled by the government provided that the suicidal deficit hawks do not win the elections. Even if the investors start making losses the market may simply freeze (like in Central Europe) and revert back to the level of prices from 2005-2007 as very few people will be interested in selling during the downturn. In the long run I cannot see the prices of homes compared with the occupants income staying at the high levels as the global situation remains very volatile. The era of the global deflationary pressure imported from China is over. Im my opinion global housing bubbles could only have grown because of the globalisation and the unchecked growth of the financial sector.
I cannot say that a scenario similar to what happened in the US, Ireland or Spain is impossible to imagine if certain external factors (related to the international trade and the currency exchange rates) affect us.
It is the comment in the article you quoted (debukning the debt/GDP ratio “myth”) which I strongly don’t agree with:
“The real problems lie elsewhere – and in our opinion mostly with the complete failure of market and funding liquidity – and its interaction with securitisation and mark-to-market accounting principles. That problem is quite dangerous enough without having people worshipping false idols such as chart ”
http://www.businessinsider.com/2009/2/us-debt-levels-are-fine-debt-to-gdp-chart-is-wrong-and-meaningless
The funding liquidity has been restored in the US and banks are busting with money. It is exactly this myth of “drying up liquidity” and other problems within the financial institutions which has entraped Chairman Bernanke and the others.
Did the QE solve anything? No, not at all. QE might have helped in avoiding bank runs. And this was it.
No matter how much QE they perform again the confidence and growth will not be restored. Only a direct government stimulus spending combined with wise tax cuts can restore the usual financial flows and bring back life to the housing market in the US and the American economy. If they fret about the public debt level – they have to suffer and lose the long-term global competition. This is the price for listening to Milton Friedman and the others I am afraid.
@sj (#65)
Regarding table 10.9 “All households, housing costs by tenure and landlord type – 2007-08″ (1301.0 Year Book Australia, 2009-10) which I believe is where some figures cited in the thread had been taken.
A lot has been made of the fact that, average weekly housing costs for owners with a mortgage ($384), represent 18% of gross household income. As you yourself accurately pointed out, the footnote mentions a relative standard error of 25% to 50%.
However, I would like to add that the same footnote included the following: “AND SHOULD BE USED WITH CAUTION” (verbatim quote). I presume this is due to the fact that the data represents a relatively small sample survey, and thus, not necessarily statistically representative.
However, there are a few things about that table that appear to have escaped from observation, even from yourself.
For an average weekly housing cost of $384 to represent 18% of gross household weekly income, the latter has to be some $2,130. I’ll invite the readers to consider how many people they know that get an income of that order of magnitude.
Even on table 10.9 own terms, for 31.6% (= 100 – 68.4) of owners with a mortgage, the average weekly housing cost ($384) represents more than 25% of gross household income. And for 7.8% of owners with a mortgage, $384 represent more than 50% gross household income. Considering the number of households included in the same table, in the first case we have 895 thousand owners paying more than 25% of their gross household income; in the second case, 221 thousand.
As the data displayed in the table refers to 2007/08, it seems a good idea to try and gain some idea of what more recent data could look like:
“The number of households facing mortgage stress has risen to a 16-month high with increases in interest costs outweighing improvements on the jobs front.
“Some 218,700 Australian households were at risk of having to sell, refinance or lose their homes in February, according to the Fujitsu Mortgage Stress-O-Meter, up 2 per cent from the previous month.”
Chris Zappone. Mortgage pain on the increase. March 11, 2010.
http://smh.domain.com.au/mortgage-pain-on-the-increase-20100429-tvsx.html
Furthermore: “Each interest rate rise adds at least $46 to the cost of monthly variable mortgage repayment costs on a typical $300,000 loan over 25 years.”
Here we must be very cautious, as we cannot safely assume that the typical loan used to calculate table 10.9 is anywhere near $300,000. However, this $46 monthly increase reminds us that average housing costs are variable, and a small interest hike can mean a fair percentage increase in weekly average costs…
Does this mean that we should start running for the hills? Not necessarily.
However, I don’t feel too confident. But that’s me.
bb #94
I cannot see the price of a Bentley falling below the cost of production either and Bentley demand is extremely high (every one I know wants one).
Picasso & Rembrant demand is also very high but sales volume is trivial along with the trivial volume of Bentley sales ~very low.
Picasso Rembrant and Bentley prices may not crash but their net rental yield is also low.