After extensive and much appreciated critical feedback on the draft designs, this blog entry showcases the three T-Shirt designs I’m producing for the Walk to Kosciuszko.
Each has the words “I was hopelessly wrong on house prices. Ask me how” as required by the bet. Each also has a graphical answer to the question:
- Timing;
- Our Debt Bubble; and
- Government manipulation of the market in the form of the First Home Owners Grant.
Some blog members have made strong cases for a plain T-shirt, but I will stick with the graph-augmented designs. I entered public debate to make the points that (a) we were in for a serious debt-induced economic crisis; and (b) that conventional economic theory had helped cause this crisis by ignoring the role of credit. I intend using this Walk to continue communicating those messages.
I’ve taken aboard the observations that the distorted text made it harder to read both the text and the graphs, but I am placing the text strategically in each graph to emphasise the message of each T-shirt.
Some bloggers have also argued that I should replace “Walking against Australia’s property mania” with “Walking against Australia’s property bubble”. I am sticking with mania, because I believe that future generations, looking back on this period, will regard it as at least the equivalent–and probably the Master–of previous ages of delusion like the Tulip Mania, the South Sea Bubble, and John Law and the Mississippi Company. Charles Mackay popularised the word “mania” to describe such periods in his masterful Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, and I think that term fittingly describes the period of delusion we are living through.
If the above choices mean that the T-shirts work less well for visual bites on TV and the like, so be it. I would rather see them as historical artefacts first, and communication devices second.
1: Timing
The first T-shirt shows CPI-adjusted house price indices for Japan, the USA and Australia, starting from the common date of June 1986 (the earliest date in the ABS time series for established home prices).
Japan’s real house price index rose by 54% between 1986 and 1991 during its Bubble Economy phase, peaked at 154.75 in February 1991 in the early days of the Bubble’s bursting. By March 2009 had fallen to 63.961–a fall of 58% over 18 years.
When Japan’s Bubble Economy fell into the heap that became known as The Lost Decade–and which is now closer to The Lost Two Decades–there were numerous commentaries that something as absurd as Japan’s bubble could never occur in America, given its much more efficient and transparent financial system. As a well-educated Minskian economist, I scoffed at the time at such reports, but even I didn’t appreciate how accurate my scepticism would prove to be.
The American real estate bubble–which began in 1997 after a period of relatively depressed prices after the 1990s recession–clearly dwarfed Japan’s. Between 1986 and late 2005, American real house prices rose by almost 88%. They then fell 36.5%, before starting to rise again recently–with the US version of Australia’s First Home Owners Grant playing a large role in the turnaround. Though prices have apparently bottomed, there are plenty of arguments to expect this to be only a temporary respite–from the size of the inventory of unsold houses to the approaching wave of defaults by mortgagees whose Alt-A “Option ARM” mortgages are about to reset).
However, both the Japanese and American house price bubbles are pygmies compared to Australia’s bubble. Australia’s still unburst bubble drove the real price of housing to 140 percent above the level of June 1986–that is, real house prices are now 2.4 times what they were in mid-1986 (the peak in real terms is still the pre-First Home Vendors Grant level of January 2008, though the nominal index is now 8 higher percent than then).
2: Our Debt Bubble
The reason that our house price bubble has kept going while other less hardy companions have already popped is the same old same old: debt. The T-shirt itself emphasises the aggregate level of private debt to GDP over the last 150 years, to make the point that this is the biggest debt bubble in our history. The previous two record highs were in 1882 at 104% of GDP, and 1931 at 77% of GDP. Today’s record is 158% as of March 2008.
This comparison actually understates the degree to which our current debt predicament is worse than any previous one, since those previous peaks were affected by deflation: the debt to GDP ratio rose between 1930 and 1931 (and 1890 and 1892) despite falling debt levels, because output and prices were falling faster than debt. In the 1930s, this phenomenon increased the debt to GDP level by about 10 percent over its pre-crisis peak.
We have yet to experience deflation, and yet our current debt level already far exceeds those previous peaks.
Household debt has played a pivotal role in this bubble. The next chart (which won’t be used for a T-shirt) makes that point. Mortgage debt rose fivefold (as a percentage of GDP) between 1990 and today. Without this debt binge, Australia’s private debt to GDP ratio today would be only slightly above the 1930s peak, rather than being twice its level.
The chart also highlights one other important point: a large reason why Australia has had such a mild GFC so far is because Australian households were enticed back into debt by the First Home Vendors Boost, and by the impact of the Government stimulus package upon household disposable incomes.
Households were reducing their mortgage exposure prior to the introduction of The Boost: mortgage debt had peaked at 81.3% of GDP in June 2008, and was trending down prior to the Boost. It then hit a bottom of 80.3% in December 2008 before rising to an all-time high of 86.8 in January 2010.
The change has been less extreme when mortgage debt is measured against Household Disposable Income (HDI), since the Australian government’s stimulus package and the interest rate cuts by the RBA boosted household incomes by almost ten percent last year. As a result, mortgage debt fell only slightly as a percentage of HDI, from 133.6% to 130.3%, and it took longer to fall. But ultimately, even though incomes had been boosted so substantially, the increase in mortgage debt last year finally exceeded the increase in incomes: by January 2010, the mortgage debt to HDI ratio had hit a new peak of 134.2%
The overwhelmingly important reason why this happened is the policy that the Government called the First Home Owners Boost, and which I describe by the more accurate name of the First Home Vendors Boost. As the final T-shirt shows, this is the fifth time in Australia’s recent economic history that the Government has manipulated the property market as a means of stimulating the economy.
3: The First Home Owners Grant
The First Home Owners Grant was first introduced in 1983; while it’s hard to locate discussion on why the grant was introduced (here’s a Hansard link for anyone with more time on their hand than I have to research this), the Grant was introduced when Australia was deep in the recession of the early 1980s, and during the first year of the new Hawke Labor Government. It is therefore likely that then, as now, the Grant was intended to boost economic activity by encouraging the housing market.
That was explicitly the purpose to enhancements to the Grant in 1988, in the aftermath to the Stock Market Crash of the previous year. The 2000 reintroduction of the Grant by the Howard Liberal Government was ostensibly a short-lived boost to the housing sector to get it over the impact of the introduction of the Goods and Services Tax (GST), but it was quickly turned to its customary role of boosting economic activity when a recession was feared in 2001 and the Grant was doubled.
The introduction of the GST is long forgotten of course, but the Grant lived on–and it was then boosted again in September 2008 as part of the Rudd Labor Government’s stimulus package to fight the GFC.
Each time it was introduced, the Grant worked as intended–and it worked not merely because it injected additional Government money into the economy, but also because it encouraged Australians to take on more mortgage debt. Each additional A$1,000 was turned into anything up to an additional $10,000 of buying power, so that while the Buyer got an additional $7,000 from the Government, the Seller (after a very satisfactory auction…) got an additional $30,000 or so from the buyer’s bank.
The Seller then used this money in turn to get a still larger loan from their bank, so that the Grant money was levered at least twice.
This double leverage is a major reason why we have a housing bubble today–and why we had one in 1988, and 2001 before that.
I don’t, like some analysts, blame the housing crisis solely on government policy: for me, the ultimate cause of our housing and financial crises will always be the innate willingness of the financial sector to extend debt. But it is certainly obvious that Government meddling in the housing market has seeded a bubble that the financial sector has then been only too willing to exploit.
As long-time readers know, I railed against this latest manipulation of the housing market when it was first introduced, and again when the scale of take-up of the Boost was first reported. My first post was the only one to draw a response from a Government Minister to any of my writings. Though this reads like a form letter that many critics of this policy may have received, the exchange is still worth reproducing here:
—–Original Message—–
From: Steve Keen [mailto:S.Keen@uws.edu.au]
Sent: Tuesday, 14 October 2008 8:59 PM
To: undisclosed-recipients:
Subject: Debtwatch comment on First Home Buyers Policy
I argue in the attached that doubling the First Home Buyers grant is a continuation of the policies that caused the economic crisis in the
first place.
Associate Professor Steve Keen
From: Plibersek, Tanya[mailto:Tanya.Plibersek@fahcsia.gov.au]
Sent: Thu 16/10/2008 5:19 PM
To: Steve Keen
Subject: RE: Debtwatch comment on First Home Buyers Policy [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Dear Steve
Thanks for your email about the First Home Owners Boost announced by the Prime Minister and Treasurer. I understand the concerns you raise in your email, however, as well as helping Australians into a home of their own, this measure will bring much needed stimulus to the housing market to support the Government’s macroeconomic agenda at a time of serious global uncertainty.
Housing is very important to the Australian economy. Investment in housing accounts for about 6 per cent of the overall economy, and housing is the major source of financial security for millions of Australians and their families.
Expanding support for first home buyers in this fashion is right for the uncertain economic conditions that we now face. It will also help to shore up housing activity in a sector that may otherwise slow. I have attached a fact sheet which provides some more information about the announcement.
Best wishes
Tanya
From: Steve Keen [mailto:S.Keen@uws.edu.au]
Sent: Thu 16/10/2008 7:05 PM
To: Plibersek, Tanya
Subject: RE: Debtwatch comment on First Home Buyers Policy [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Dear Tanya,
I appreciate your perspective, but I remain of the opinion that this is a misguided policy.
The housing market was seriously over-stimulated by debt-financed speculation in the last one and a half decades, and most of that stimulus did far more to boost price levels and increase unaffordability, than it did to increase supply.
The financial security promised by housing has become financial insecurity in the USA and the UK, and much of the OECD, and it will inevitably prove so for Australia too, which as you are aware has the most expensive housing relative to incomes in the OECD. True security only exists when house prices keep step with incomes. When they rise faster for sustained periods, on the back of even faster increases in debt, the financial wealth created is both fictitious and fragile, as we are now seeing on the daily news.
Part of the reason for Australia’s speculative bubble [I have made a slight grammatical edit here of the original] is the plethora of schemes in Australia which encourage speculation on house prices–from negative gearing, to capital gains tax at half the rate of income tax, the exemption of capital gains on principal residences, and of course the first home buyers scheme.
I would be far happier to see schemes to support renters and strengthen their rights, than yet another to encourage first home buyers into a grossly overvalued market.
Nonetheless I appreciate your email, and would like to keep in contact about this and the broader issues involved in our economic crisis.
Sincerely,
Steve
Now The Boost is behind us, and the evidence is in on its impact. There is no doubt that it stimulated the economy–possibly as much as the rest of the stimulus package and the RBA rate cuts combined. It also stimulated house prices through the roof–and it’s the main reason why I’ll be walking next month.
But it worked by seducing Australians back into debt, since (as I observed in a previous report), house prices can only continue rising compared to incomes if debt continues to rise faster still. This could continue after The Boost if the fire the Government lit in the market was carried on by “investors”–and that was and is certainly the hope expressed both by the Government and the property lobby.
My expectations, and that of many other critics like Adam Schwab, was that the FHVB would boost buyer numbers while it lasted, but cause a slump (in First Home Buyers at least) when it finished because (a) it would drag in many would-be First Home Buyers who would have purchased in later years into purchasing in 2009, thus inflating 2009 numbers at the expense of subsequent years; and (b) it would inflate prices so much that many other would-be First Home Buyers would decide to continue as renters instead.
That’s just from the borrowers side; the surprise move by Westpac to reduce its maximum LVR from 92% to 87% also made me feel that, just maybe, the days of rising leverage driving house prices were coming to an end. That doesn’t sound like much, but it means that a purchaser who had her eye on a $1 million dream home and had the requisite funding prior to the change would now have to find an additional $50,000 in cash to bid the same amount–that’s a 62.5% increase in the deposit required to come up with the asking price wanted by the vendor (from $80,000 or 8% of the purchase price to $130,000 or 13% of the purchase price).
The question then is whether the “investors” who’ve been enticed into the market by the promise of rising prices could outweigh an inevitable fall in the number of First Home Buyers and the start of banks unwinding their excessive leverage beneath house prices.
Preliminary data doesn’t look that crash hot for the property bulls on both these fronts. Both the number and the value of new mortgages took an unprecedented fall once the FHVB expired, as the next two charts show.
So the odds are high that the ending of the FHVB will be one of several triggers for the long overdue bursting of the Australian property bubble–along with the unwinding of excessive housing leverage and the slowdown in the rate of growth of mortgage debt. The FHVB will then turn out to be what I anticipated: a short term success that sets up the conditions for a long term failure, and at the expense of the quarter of a million Australians who were enticed into mortgage debt by this temporarily successful but ultimately irresponsible policy.
For that reason, the T-Shirt I’ll be wearing on day one of The Walk is number 3 above.









March 24th, 2010 at 10:02 am
ak@191
I agree.
The reason that I see the off shore borrowing by the banks as a necessity brought on by the CAD and not required for local lending for housing, is that the housing loans can be created using the credit creation cycle (Cavaliers of Credit) and are made in Australian Dollars not the foreign currency loaned by the overseas banks. Thus the local banks take the responsibility for rolling over the foreign loans and the exchange rate risk (if needed by the foreign lenders). As I have said before I do not think that the instruments used to hedge the conversion risk could survive a major plunge in the exchange rate. I do hope that the Government is not taking over the exchange rate risk.
I do not know when you arrived in Australia but you may not be aware of the “Swiss loans affair” when in the mid 1980′s the ANZ bank arranged for farmers to take over foreign exchange risk on their loans, enticed by an interest rate reduction. When the exchange rate moved against the farmers they were wiped out.
The foreign loans are indeed used directly to purchase foreign goods which end in many cases as toxic, or non toxic waste in landfill. The banks’ borrowings keep the AUD artificially high and have lead to the almost complete loss of Australian technological capability.
As you said we buy foreign good with foreign tokens and we buy houses with Australian tokens. As claimed by Bill Mitchell we need to create real wealth here.
This is however all part of a dynamic feedback loop which is not fully modeled or understood by anyone yet. The direct connections are easily understood (foreign goods for foreign currency) the indirect connections are just leaps of neoclassical fancy (foreign borrowing for housing loans fueling CAD) unquantified. The effects of time delays and feedback are never considered.
How is that Perl script coming along?
Cheers
March 24th, 2010 at 10:35 am
haven’t posted here in a while and the quality of posts seemstobe even higher. Not sure if anyone has discussed this already, but apparently bernanke thinks to eliminate banking reserves altogether would be a good thing and wants to head that way. Sorry to bring up the inflation deflation debate again, but there is obviously scope for drastic rule changes in favour of inflation that the powers that curently be currently want. How does this influence the debt deflation analysis, these are obviously paramenter altering and maybe even whole model structure altering changes that could favour inflation for an extended period? Not to mention that no regulator will have any justification to look at the books of a bank if there are no reserve requirements, so its going to be hard to get detailed and accurate data to work with.
March 24th, 2010 at 10:36 am
sorry heres a linkto bernanke story
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/bernanke-wants-to-eliminate-reserve-requirements-completely-yftt_444354.html
March 24th, 2010 at 11:32 am
ak re #147,
In Bill Mitchell’s post about the Money Multiplier that you kindly referred me to, he states the following (towards the end) -
“The important point though is that all transactions at the non-government level balance out – they “net to zero”. For every asset that is created so there is a corresponding liability – $-for-$. So credit expansion always nets to zero!”
This perplexes me (admittedly not difficult).
If the non-government sector is charging interest – and the interest charged to borrowers is obviously at a % rate that is higher than what the non-govt sector must itself pay, else there are no profits, right? – but they are not also creating the actual interest component too (ie, a real unit over and above the actual principal extended to the borrower), then how can it be that all the transactions at non-govt level “net to zero”? Where does the additional ‘interest’ component come from that constitutes the banks’ profit?
That observation / concern seems to be justified by Bill’s subsequent statement -
“When a bank makes a $A-denominated loan it simultaneously creates an equal $A-denominated deposit. So it buys an asset (the borrower’s IOU) and creates a deposit (bank liability).”
That loan is only principal, right? Where is the interest component? They haven’t created that.
In my limited understanding, it increasingly smells kind of like a gargantuan Ponzi scheme. For banks to make a profit from the spread on usury, credit must be continually on extension, and within the populace there be a ‘Robbing Peter to Pay Paul’ cycle in continuous motion in order for banks to siphon away ‘profits’ at any given point in time.
Can you help me here?
March 24th, 2010 at 11:36 am
Is Chris Joyce worrying about the basis for his previous conclusions, and in the following article is asking for more detailed facts? I agreee more detail the better!
http://christopherjoye.blogspot.com/2010/03/information-is-power.html
March 24th, 2010 at 11:51 am
barnaby i think you are right, its actually just an obscenely simple way for finance to extract(steal) cash by continuing to increase leverage. Hence my post on Bernanke wanting to eliminate reserve requirements because this gives so much control to banks as to how much they extract from the system.
oldie but a goodie
“The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled.” John Kenneth Galbraith
March 24th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
PLease excuse for the length of this post but I have been a long term vistor to this site and I enjoy reading the posts. I have become much more aware of the debt deflation vesus the reflating of the leaking balloon of asset values debate. I believe that the governments/vested interests will do what ever it takes to keep inflating the bubble as just too many vested interests are at stake and that walk and the t shirts hopefully put some attention back to who is really gaining from high and increasing prices. The government(doesn’t matter which party) , has increased migration, relaxed FIRB, reduced deductible super contribution limits, thereby channelling more funds into negative gearing(see also quote re NBN).
The state goverments particulary NSW have powerful vested interests in pushing valuations up.We have ex housing ministers in NSW that have accumulated large property portfolios from ex housing stock or willmake large gains from indirect ownership of property that will be rezoned for housing.The revenue structure for services within local government is all based on land valuations.
In the USA the relaxation of accounting rules such as the mark to market rules and now the proposition of relaxing reserves is on the basis that by decreasing reserves more money will be availble to be loaned out…
The structure of the FED Reserve (private ownership)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System
means that those vested interest are in charge of the worlds reserve currency and they want inflation and probably at any cost.
I could go on with my observations,however my point is that the process of the blogs, the walk, the T shirts hopefully can help bring about some considered changes ( peacefully without alot of suffering)that mean the future is more sustainable. We need to kill the nine headed hydra, I saw this quote and feel is its quite apt regarding humanities desire and the fact that you cut off one head and two will grow in its place For those unfamiliar with the symbology of the story, three heads symbolise the appetites (sex, comfort and money); three the passions (fear, hatred and desire for power); three the unillumined mind (pride, separativeness and cruelty).
Anyway I will depart back into cyberspace and continue my observations sorry again for the length and perhaps ramblings of my post.
Cheers
JACK
March 24th, 2010 at 1:38 pm
BarnabyIsRight,
I cannot write much today. Please check out http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/papers/9780230_203372_10_cha09.pdf to see how interests can be paid in the environment where the net financial assets equal to zero.
March 24th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
BIR,
By showing some emotion I just wanted to demonstrate that I am only human. Thanks for the invitation to re-engage.
Just wanted to make one point based on the posts I have seen today and your example of inconsistency between my statement regarding theory and practice.
The tendency in economic theory is that theoreticians tend to observe some outcomes, create a theory around behaviour which would theoretically lead to those outcomes and then be convinced this is what practitioners must be doing. Can you see what that looks like to intelligent practitioners when it is not what they are actually doing? The credit creation theory could be right at a macro level but it does not mean a banker gets up every morning and decides to create credit. The constraint around credit creation are exactly what I said before and that there is a competitive market for capital and investment. You can’t have unlimited credit because the cost of capital will go up while the return from investments will go down. This is what happens everyday and the driver is the availability of capital. What is indeed frustrating is that theoraticians put their hands around their ears at the suggestion of contrary evidence to their theories.
BrightSpark approach to start with an engineering system and try to fit what happens in the economy to that understanding is a similar example. While you may gain some insight from your knowledge all the answers are not there, you are in a completely different paradigm. I think the post from Lyonwiss @192 is a very accurate response
ak,
Debt deflation is indeed a risk but can you tell me what are the chances of this happening and what confidence can you prescribe around those chances. Maybe you believe it is inevitable. If risk management was based on inevitability it would fail very quickly. I am sure the home loan portfolio is monitored very closely and subject to risk assessment under many very different scenarios. Especially since the GFC. Do you think banks with all of their resources and given what caused the GFC would just sit on their hands and pray for the best? I think some humility is truly in order just in the light of how much resources some of these institutions have to devote to very thorough analysis of what is happening. Remember we are talking about institutions which survived the biggest financial crisis since the great depression.
March 24th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
TITINT,
Thanks for coming back to me. Only one question this time, in two parts. You wrote at #209:
“You can’t have unlimited credit because the cost of capital will go up while the return from investments will go down”
The ‘cost of capital’ is determined by the interest rate, correct?
In proof of point, you wrote at #170 – “The market does this through a competitive allocation with a floating term structure of interest rates”. And at #175 you helpfully expanded on this – “The yield curve is how prices for capital are set for the various maturity terms”
So, to the second part of my question. If interest were banned… how can there be any ‘cost of capital’?
With no interest rates, there is no longer any such thing as a yield curve.
IF true, then my observation that, by simply banning usury altogether, you can indeed create literally as much money/credit as you wish would be correct.
March 24th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
I think I see what you mean, but it sounds like a problem not a solution.
Is this kind of like the green traffic lights for all political party I thought up some years ago?
I guess the problem I see is that it would kill the whole system. And killing the whole system would lead to economic collapse. Not sure if that’s what you want, I think someone even suggested a run on banks in one of the posts…
March 24th, 2010 at 3:47 pm
marvenger1,
It looks far more diabolical to me than what you’ve described.
IF my observation is correct, the logical conclusion must follow that whilst ever usury is permitted, mankind is doomed to ever-increasing debt slavery.
Society can never, ever ‘square the ledger’ and become 100% (debt) free. It’s an impossibility. Why?
Because when a bank makes a loan to Person A, only the principal is created. Not the interest. The bank must create a NEW loan/s … (ie), sucker yet another person into becoming a debt slave, or, entice an existing debt slave to go even deeper/longer into slavery … in order for the total interest repayments due over the life of Loan A to come into existence too.
IF that really is how the usury-banking system works at first principles, then little wonder it has been banned over and over again since the days of Moses. It really is evil… nothing more than a cunning tool for the enslavement of the human race.
March 24th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
TITINT,
I perceive that what I’m suggesting would kill the parts of the system that are predatory (a VERY good thing), and, those that are genuinely superfluous.
How to transition to such a system whilst avoiding chaos is something I’ve not yet considered. However, to be perfectly frank I fear that we are going to have chaos anyway. Given that usury-banking is (increasingly to my mind) a monolithic Ponzi, it will self-destruct one day anyway.
Perhaps thinking people should be giving sincere thought right now, to how best mankind might very rapidly introduce a replacement, so as to minimise pain and suffering when the current system collapses?
March 24th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
BIR
We live in a world that has many interwoven threads and the basis for a lot of those threads is debt and the price of that debt. Even if interest rates were Zero the debt has a price due to who the money is being lent to and for how long.
Why risk money lending to a person/company/country and not get a return on it.
The search for passive income from investment is also as old as mankind, the Athenians used to levy the various Greek Islands in the form of the Delian league, a bit like a GST to keep the Persians at bay.
With 6 to 7 billion people on the planet we need to be careful what threads we pull from the cloth.
What hasn’t been allowed to occur is what occurred in the early 90′s when the banks had large exposures to guys likes Skase and Bond and had to write the bad debts offs before they can begin to relend.Because the level of debt is so widespread through households, the political will is not there to fully allow the destructive process of capitalism to occur. Which why they are trying to reflate so that they can inflate the debt away.
March 24th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
Jack Spax,
“What hasn’t been allowed to occur is what occurred in the early 90’s when the banks had large exposures to guys likes Skase and Bond and had to write the bad debts offs before they can begin to relend.Because the level of debt is so widespread through households, the political will is not there to fully allow the destructive process of capitalism to occur. Which why they are trying to reflate so that they can inflate the debt away.”
That’s interesting maybe this is why they relax the foreign ownership laws in real estate?
March 24th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
Hi Barnaby
The powerful have always been able to collect rent, and the bankers are getting outrageously good at doing it at the moment. Thats how I see it. The whole system is being set up for massive clandestine rent extraction. To me it seems the banks are actually getting good at managing this whole mess, from their perspective. I dunno maybe I’m losing the plot but the events seem to go by a crisis gets created, the people who created it must fix it coz apparently they are the only ones who understand so we’re told, and then they relax the standards even more so they can do more of the same because this is the only strategy to solve the problem. And currently it looks like they have stabalised the system despite the massive theft and they can argue it was necessary because it would have been worse without it. I still think it will end in disaster but it will take a while. I have no idea where the tipping point is.
March 24th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
TruthIsThereIsNoTruth@209
“BrightSpark approach to start with an engineering system and try to fit what happens in the economy to that understanding is a similar example. While you may gain some insight from your knowledge all the answers are not there, you are in a completely different paradigm. I think the post from Lyonwiss @192 is a very accurate response”
I am not suggesting that we start with an engineering system and try to fit it to what happens in the economy. After all many engineering systems are as different from one another as they are different from economic systems. You are quite correct it is a completely different paradigm. The problem is that the system that is the economic system we live with is dynamic and changes with time while no neoclassical economic papers which I have been able to find consider time to be a factor in their calculations. See the “lets do the time warp again chapter” in Debunking Economics. The mathematics involved was originally devised by Sir Isaac Newton in the eighteenth century, in his case to describe the dynamics of bodies in motion. Many “economists” have ignored it and not even tried to apply it to the economic system. I suppose we could say why should they? they can choose to describe a system that suits them and their bosses they have the power. The problem is that they have always ended up creating an unstable system which periodically collapses with dire consequences for the more vulnerable.
As to Lyonwiss@92′ post it claimed that I was wrong with no explanation as to why other than he did not agree and went on to say that I or all other posters should not do the same thing, (just say “you are wrong”), that is hypocritical! That together with other insults leveled at BIR and myself (particularly this implied one) by both of you are quite unfair and ill considered and not up to the usual highly civilised standards found on this blog. Please try and be fair.
Many thanks.
March 24th, 2010 at 5:05 pm
Jack,
“Why risk money lending to a person/company/country and not get a return on it.”
Because it is the right, good, and moral thing to do, wherever doing so helps the borrower to Qualitatively and Sustainably advance, and as a result, society as well. It is the wise and forward thinking thing to do, if we are at all interested in the advancement of the human race, and not just the furthering of our own interests and comforts for the very limited lifetime each of us has.
In the modern paradigm, ‘money’ costs nothing to create in the first place. It is digits. A mere book entry.
Why should those very few who have, in times long past, managed to take to themselves (through bribery, corruption, and coercion) this practically unlimited power to create ‘money’ out of thin air, be permitted to profit from the debt-slave labour of the rest of the human race?
You mentioned ‘risk’. But please consider. There is essentially no ‘risk’ to the money creator. The ‘money’ cost nothing. It is intrinsically without any ‘worth’ whatsoever. And no true labour or effort was required to create it.
The bankers have been granted (assumed, stolen) the incredible right to create an entirely fictional entity, entice the greedy/impatient to sign a contract of debt-slavery merely in order to be granted use of that fictional entity, and then profit enormously from their labours.
It is morally wrong. And I feel that, with a little reflection and historical study, it is self-evident that the human race as a whole has actually devolved ethically, morally, psychologically, spiritually, and in terms of wasted natural and human resources, as a direct consequence of (yet again) allowing money-lending at usury.
March 24th, 2010 at 5:14 pm
BrightSpark1,
Whilst it is true that neo-classical economists ignore dynamics it is not fair to say that practitioners are a bunch of neo-classical economists and this is because they didn’t see the GFC coming.
Economists do not create the economy. They have more influence on it than say botanists on botany or cosmologists on the cosmos but they do not create the economy they observe it.
The system is inherently unstable but it is not because neo-classical economists made it that way. They may have influenced more deregulation via promoting free market rhetoric which may be linked to GFC, yes. But this is policy not financial practice. Let’s draw a distinction here rather than painting everything with the same brush.
Economists influence policy. Their role at the coal face is as observers and analysts not decision makers. Consider for a moment that practitioners navigated Australian financial institutions through the crisis and I would look to practitioners for a realistic understanding of what is going on rather then trying to fit thousands of people into the neo-classical basket.
March 24th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
TNINT 215
My belief in regards to all of the stimulus packages, the increased migration, the relaxation of FIRB and FHOG etc etc and all of the support to the FIRE sector is to provide time so that deleveraging can occur as orderly as possible and the banks write off bad debts in a piecemeal fashion rather than all at once. Yet at the same time this can only occur by the Government Sector increasing its debt. This is sort of what has happened in Japan, except from my understanding their banking system was stuffed full of bad corparate and household debt from their 80′s debt binge and the Japanese penchant for not losing face plus the fact that they were going to take a big loss prevented the banking sector from writing off their bad debts. This together with a number of other factors has resulted in Japan having on and off deflation over the last 20 years. Other factors include a negative population growth as a result of it being too expensive to have kids and not allowing immigration. It would be interesting to see what the percentnage of negative equity households remain in Japan.Actually this is a good example of what happens when you have zero or close to zero rates.
March 24th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
BrightSpark1,
Sorry one more thing, in my comment on the accuracy of Lyonwiss’ post I was referring to the use of stochastic dynamics and only later realised the offensive comments towards you, which I don’t agree with. But I propose to put the personal stuff behind us now.
March 24th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
Marvenger1 #216,
Honestly, I’ve not ever thought much about the issue of rent and landlords. At face value it seems to me a rather different issue to the far more prevalent issue of a very few creating money from nothing and directly enslaving ever-more people for much (if not all) of their lifetimes.
You may very well be right in your suspicions though. It seems plausible to me that we could reach a scenario, perhaps not-too-distant, where virtually everyone – certainly the majority – is either a renter already or is in negative-equity on their mortgage, and a financial system on the verge of collapse is suddenly changed such that some ‘new’ (possibly global/central) SIV entity ‘owns’ everyone’s toxic mortgage, and rather than turning everyone out into the streets, ‘chaos’ is ‘averted’ (“We’re saved, we’re saved! Oh how grateful we are!) when everyone has their debt extinguished in part or in full, but is turned into a rent-slave of Big Bank Central.
Or some such ugly thing
March 24th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
BIR
I take your point about the issue of getting rid of usury re being the right and moral thing to do, and the devolving human, we only have to look at the examples of Third world foreign debt where the citzens starve so that the country the can export the food they grow to pay for their foregin debt that has been borrowed to keep their corrupt rulers in power.
The problem always comes back to greed and human nature (three heads of the Hydra)and the fact that there will always be lenders and borrowers and that at the end of the day. I suppose the issue is borrower beware and that there may be worse people that you can borrow money from than the banks
If we look at countries where credit is cheap such as Japan the social issues can be extremely painful. Life insurance in Japan has a 5 year exlusion period for suicide. THe other aspect is there is ample evidence that small business in Japan is forced to borrow money from the Yakusa due to the poor health of the Japanese banking system.
http://orgcrime.tripod.com/japeconomy.htm
Although Japanese banks considerably expanded their commercial and consumer lending in the 1980s, many institutions evidently lacked the tools and the resources to conduct proper credit risk analyses. The result was an accumulation of nonperforming loans. Rather than write off these loans, some banks sold their bad debts to the yakuza packaged with new loans that were several times larger than the size of the bad debts.[13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Japan
Systemic reasons for deflation in Japan can be said to include:
Fallen asset prices. There was a large price bubble in both equities and real estate in Japan in the 1980s (peaking in late 1989).
Insolvent companies: Banks lent to companies and individuals that invested in real estate. When real estate values dropped, many loans went unpaid. The banks could try to collect on the collateral (land), but due to reduced real estate values, this would not pay off the loan. Banks have delayed the decision to collect on the collateral, hoping asset prices would improve. These delays were allowed by national banking regulators. Some banks make even more loans to these companies that are used to service the debt they already have. This continuing process is known as maintaining an “unrealized loss”, and until the assets are completely revalued and/or sold off (and the loss realized), it will continue to be a deflationary force in the economy.
Insolvent banks: Banks with a large percentage of their loans which are “non-performing” (loans for which payments are not being made), but have not yet written them off. These banks cannot lend more money until they increase their cash reserves to cover the bad loans. Thus the quantity of loans are reduced and less funds are available for economic growth.
Fear of insolvent banks: Japanese people are afraid that banks will collapse so they prefer to buy gold or (United States or Japanese) Treasury bonds instead of saving their money in a bank account. People also save by owning real estate.
The Japanese by the way are also big purchasers of Aust T bonds.As well this has been facilitating the “carry trade” and keeping our economy flush with cash.
I will think about this next time I have sashimi.
Cheers
Jack
March 24th, 2010 at 6:46 pm
Bit more about Japan and deflation.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=a5cWx9Zq_BNg&refer=columnist_pesek
The bad news is that the global economy is shaky and Japan lacks options to stabilize growth. The reluctance of local banks to expand lending, even after they avoided the worst of the subprime meltdown, means small companies are even more starved for credit, and thus potential yakuza victims, than before.
Rot Spreads
In July, Smith says, the liabilities of bankruptcies in real estate and construction jumped 291 percent year over year. “This is not a blip,” he says. “It has been steadily moving from drama to crisis for months.”
The rot is spreading. Excluding the real estate and construction sectors, Smith says liabilities jumped 12 percent year-over-year in June and 14 percent in July. Hence the growing sense of nervousness that banks will be even stingier with small businesses. Also, concerns about credit-rating downgrades are increasingly weighing on Japan’s stock market.
All this gets at a key weakness: Japan’s underlying financial system. Even if the BOJ cut its benchmark rate back to zero from today’s 0.5 percent, structural problems will keep that liquidity from getting to borrowers who need it.
March 24th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Hi Jack,
Lots of good thoughts there, very much I agree on. However
…
“If we look at countries where credit is cheap such as Japan the social issues can be extremely painful.”
I think it’s important to first consider precisely HOW Japan has come to be in the position where it has that ‘cheap credit’ presently. The USA, UK, much of the western world likewise, in fact.
Seems to me the cheap credit there is a direct consequence – a planned necessity, even – of the bankers in Japan having effectively exhausted the nation’s capacity to keep on borrowing at anything like the prior volume/price (with r/e collapse, bad loans to business etc as you’ve mentioned all contributing to the paradigm change viz. previous willingnessness to borrow). So, if the bankers want to keep their grand Ponzi going – which they obviously do, how else do you remain a Master of the Universe? – then the obvious choice is to up the ante in enticing borrowers anew by making credit as ‘cheap’ as necessary to get them in.
I guess what I’m proposing is a neo-ancient system – a pure credit economy, without usury. Credit then is not just ‘cheap’, it’s 100% free. Borrowers only ever repay the actual original loan value. Restrictions on borrowing are nothing to do with the ‘price of credit’ (since it’s free), but based solely on the borrower demonstrating personal/business financial prudency, and being able to demonstrate that the free credit requested will be employed for a Quality improvement and/or Sustainable purpose.
I’m sure you were not intending it this way. But I just felt on reading your comment there, that it might be useful to clarify that the cheap credit now evident in Japan and elsewhere and its effects, is not actually a relevant comparative example to my proposal of (again) banning usury and making 100% free credit the very basis of the financial system.
Cheers to you also.
March 24th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Jack #224,
Indeed. Not good.
Can you see how my suggestion could eliminate those problems in Japan? No small business would ever be starved for credit again, provided they could show a genuine need, and/or simply a positive social outcome (continued employment of staff?) as a result of being given the interest-free loan.
Let the current struggling banks all go to the wall. Serves ‘em right for leeching off society.
Replace them immediately with a new entity/s that are commissioned to loan at 0% to any business that can show a plausible case.
March 24th, 2010 at 7:32 pm
PS Jack,
“….the devolving human, we only have to look at the examples of Third world foreign debt where the citzens starve so that the country the can export the food they grow to pay for their foregin debt that has been borrowed to keep their corrupt rulers in power.”
Have you ever read any of the writings of Nikola Tesla?
An amazing human being. Personally, I found his views on the value – nay, the necessity – of our seeking to maximise ‘human energy’ to be quite profound. And morally exquisite.
If we could only pause to consider what would be the true human potential, if we adopted as our #1 aspiration to ensure that every human being born – irrespective of colour, race, sex, ‘class’, et al – were given every possible opportunity to live a long life, receive a well-rounded education, and be given opportunity to THINK and explore their individual potential… I’m sure no man living could come close to imagining how far we might go.
7 billion+ well-fed, well-educated, and freely financed human brains could achieve a hell of a lot.
March 24th, 2010 at 7:34 pm
#218 BIR – do you propose that any investor/lender should not charge interest AT ALL when providing his savings to fund production/consumption/whatever?
If you use the modern paradigm (to which I am opposed) and money has no worth and should be lent at 0% interest, isn’t that similar to the Greenspan low-interest rate period and the current Bernanke 0-0.25% period which created and continues the moral hazard of today?
BIR – if you look at the historical record, interest rates have fallen from an average of over 20% in Bablyonian times, to 7-8% around the Industrial revolution and now down to almost 0%.
I agree with your sentiments – that money created out of thin air and lent out to provide “free” money in the form of interest – is not sustainable, fair or in society’s best interest (sic).
But the record shows that interest rates have fallen to near zero as a result of the creation of worthless money: there are no stabilizers or regulations that can stop this running away – and the lower the interest rate, the less worth the original capital (even if it was “created” in a book, someone had to earn and save the money originally).
What is required is banks to become utilities, with no guarantees, no bailouts, no insurance and for money not able to be created except through savings and production, not by a printing press or an electronic keystroke.
March 24th, 2010 at 7:51 pm
BIR
Understand but i have to refer you back to AK’s 135 which sums it up for me.
I know of a community on the south coast of NSW ( only about 300 people in winter) that used to have a barter economy running,among the retirees, some people growing vegies, some brewing beer,some catching fish and they trade it for what they want, beer, vegies or fish, they were only using currency ( most of them are either self funded or recieve age pension) for major transactions for petrol, rates etc items they could manufacture for themselves. They didn’t require credit as such but they needed the currency which is based on credit.
The point is is that credit/currency is a commodity that can be traded for things that we want or need and as soon as it becomes free it becomes worthless and is no longer a valued commodity.
Why should I receive a token/coin that I can get that has no value for a commodity that i have to labour for.
I suspect that some time in the near future the valuation of credit ( ie bonds will drop) due to the sheer amount being issued by Governments around the world, this where I think MMT has a flaw. The market will chase the best return at the least perceived risk. Again one of the reasons why people purchase property given that it appears to have the best return and least perceived risk.
Anyway I like the concept I just dont see how you can human nature to that degree, partcularly 6 billion plus human beings all competing for limited resources.
That me for the night, now for a beer.
March 24th, 2010 at 8:00 pm
PS
Forgive some of my typos in post 229 should be
“items that they could not manufacture”
” how you can change human nature to that degree”.
March 24th, 2010 at 8:16 pm
Jack #223
Your comments about japans insolvent banks ( zombie banks ) have some relevance with regards the ” are banks too big to fail ” argument.
Perhaps it is right to let one big bank fail ( Lehman Brothers ) and accept the loss and in doing so signal to the rest of the banks that the game is up and its time to come clean on there lossess.
The US government effectively nationalised some of its institutions but at the end of the day they still have a functioning banking system.
BIR #
Banking is like any other business. Owners and proprietors provide capital and seek to make profits in providing products and services. Banks levy different levels of interest against different levels of risk. I cannot see how this could be achieved in a state sponsored 0% interest bank run by volunteers.
Banks like any other business pay taxes on there profits. They return some of there profits back to shareholders and they also re-invest profits back into there business.
If people think banks are excessively profiteering they are always free to purchase a share of the banking business via the sharemarket.
If you have a job then it is highly likely that you indirectly own part of the banking business via the compulsory superannuation system.
March 24th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
Please connect all the dots. We will see much more of this as the conflict escalates. In my opinion it is about exercising direct political influence not necessarily just about making profits.
To any Aussie politician who may read this.
Don’t borrow any money from that country and don’t let their billionaires own our mineral resources or critical infrastructure!
“Google executives are calculating the next step in their escalating conflict with Beijing, after the Chinese government’s fierce response to the censorship battle took the company by surprise.”
…
“The situation leaves Google’s other businesses in mainland China under threat, despite claims that it would stick by its research facilities, phone manufacturing and sales operations in the country.
A number of businesses are said to be considering their links with the company, including those run by Hong Kong billionaire Li Ka-Shing, who owns Britain’s mobile phone network 3 and runs Tom Online, one of China’s most popular web portals.
Faced with events yesterday, Tom has dropped Google as a partner and instead switched to Chinese rival Baidu – which self-censors – in order to provide its users with search results.
Other companies could follow suit, and it has been previously reported that popular sites including Sina.com and Ganji.com have been pressured to end their relationship with the internet’s most powerful company.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/mar/23/google-china
Who is Li Ka-shing?
“The ultimate boss of the Third Terminal at Port Botany will be the 81 year old Sir Li Ka-shing, Asia’s richest self-made billionaire. Through the Hutchison Whampoa conglomerate, Li is the world’s largest operator of container terminals, world’s largest health and beauty retailer, a major supplier of electricity to Hong Kong and a real estate developer. His second-largest holding is the Canadian oil firm Husky Energy. Li’s current personal worth is estimated at $16.2 billion (a drop of $10 billion over the past year). Previous investments in Sydney have been notable failures – The Cross City Tunnel and the Lane Cove Tunnels. ”
http://laperouse.info/?p=725
March 24th, 2010 at 9:03 pm
Further to my post #165 yesterday, which is very relevant for “Walking against Australia’s property bubble”, here is an excerpt on the same subject today in Daily Reckoning:
“The loan books of Australian banks are growing faster than deposits. Bank loans outstanding total $1.6 trillion and are growing at 8% per year while deposits of $960 billion are growing at 5% a year, according to John Durie and Martin Collins in the Australian. If Aussie banks want to keep lending, they’ll have to keep borrowing abroad.
The trouble with that is that foreign borrowing costs are on the rise. Between 2011 and 2014, Durie reckons over $650 billion in leveraged loans will have to be refinance by Aussie banks. With so many governments borrowing money right now, Aussie banks are surely going to have to pay more to borrow from abroad. They’ll be able to refinance, but probably a higher price.
That higher price of refinancing old loans and getting new ones is why Westpac reckons it’s going to have to raise interest rates independent of what the RBA does. If the banks can’t loan from deposits (since loans are growing faster than deposits) they’ll have to squeeze existing borrowers with higher rates. And you know who we’re talking about.
Homeowners. Or, to be precise, mortgage owners. Because of the reliance on foreign funding at a time when the global cost of capital is headed up, Aussie banks are going to put the screws to all those newbies who got into the market with the First Home Buyer’s Grant.
The yoke of debt may have felt light until now. But the lash of higher rates on the back will definitely be noticeable. Let’s just hope it doesn’t break the financial back of a whole generation of home buyers, although this is what we fear “bringing forward demand” will do. It brought premature buyers into the market that will not be able to survive in a world of higher interest rates.”
The full article is here:
http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/a-loss-is-not-a-loss-if-you-turn-debt-into-equity/2010/03/24/
Of course, all these people must be wrong because foreign debt has nothing to do with housing debt!!!
March 24th, 2010 at 10:24 pm
Lyonwiss,
Spot on again.
However what you will see will always happen gradually. At the moment there is probably a big buffer which banks watch very closely and react to.
I would also be careful about extrapolating the disparity between home loan growth and deposit growth too much. I have a feeling the growth in home loans will take a break in the short term, I’m sure from memory the recent home loan growth was negative as expected after the withdrawal of the boost.
March 24th, 2010 at 10:54 pm
TruthIsThereIsNoTruth
Totally agree about timing in a fundamentally nonlinear world. You can anticipate something and fall asleep waiting then it all happens so quickly that’s all over before you have time to react. If it were not like this I would be very rich.
Higher interest rates being uncontrollable by the manipulators are one of the few things that could pop the bubble. I think hiatus in home loan growth, particularly if it continues, actually tightens the noose by curbing and even reversing property prices. Equity risk is then added to liquidity risk, increasing the risk of default and foreclosure. We have to wait and see what will happen.
March 24th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Latest data out on 18th March seems to indicate the household debt clock has been reset back to approx. Dec 2005.
http://www.rba.gov.au/statistics/tables/xls/b21hist.xls
March 25th, 2010 at 12:02 am
hi barnabyisright,
we are all concerned about the level of leverage in the australian economy, but im afraid barnaby and your good self are backing the wrong horse when it comes to the debt debate.
the question is who’s debt should we be concerned about.
barnaby is right to be concerned about debt, but given his totally ill informed pronouncments on the matter, nuance might as well be a town in france.
a country or more specifically a government that is sovereign in its own currency , and has its debt denominated in its own currency, has no solvency issues.
so for example if the chinese US bond holders wanted their money back tomorrow beceause for what ever portfolio adjustment reasons best known to them, all that would happen is that off setting entries would be made into various securities and bank accounts held by chinese investors at the federal reserve. all obligations met ,no default, no solvency issues, NO SOVEREIGN DEBT PROBLEM!
as an accountant BARNABY should hopefully understand this process.
furthermore government bond issuance has all to do with monetary policy as oppossed to fiscal policy or financing government expenditure. bond issuance allows the government or more specifically the rba to control the interest rate target through managing liquidity through bond sales and purchases.
the government doesnt need bond sales to finance anything, it can simply spend into the banking system, even if there was no demand for their bonds.
so the government deficit and debt is the least of our problems if at all.
an over leveraged private sector is a totally different kettle of fish. their liabilities are real and danderous since they are not sovereign in their own currency. there is a connection however between the level of private sector debt and government spending. in national income accounting terms the private sector financial deficit is equal to the government financial surplus or visa versa.
the moral of the story is that all those costello surpluses had the effect of draining savings from the private sector, forcing the private sector to meet its investment and savings desires through greater debt financing. and hence one of the causes of the debt crisis emerges.
so if we want to get out this debt pickle , the government needs to keep running large deficits and keep injecting money without liability into the private sector, so that the private sector can use that money without liability to repair their balance sheets and reduce their debt levels.
there isnt a snowballs chance in hell that the private sector is going to be able to solve its debt problems without the government running large deficits either through increased spending or cutting taxes into the distant future.
remember the nett private sector financial surplus is eqaul to the nett government financial deficit. so if we want the private sector to de leverage, the only entity that can provide the money without increasing private sector liablities is the governmnet
so if barnaby wants to talk about the debt, he needs to be talking about the private sector debt and the misguided neo classical ideas about revenue neutrality and government budgetary constraints that have sucked savings from the private sector and in part contributed to our debt situation
March 25th, 2010 at 1:02 am
Whilst I understand and mostly agree with those who say the government will do everything in its power to keep the bubble inflated. I do disagree on one point.
Government may deploy every part of their arsenal.
However, when sentiment does shift, the deleveraging will begin in earnest.
Once asset prices begin to downturn again and on what seems to be a more permanent footing, sentiment will follow the prices down.
For housing the switch will be dramatic. It will most likely occur when things look the rosiest.
Once the market has a ‘feel’ that prices are going down over at least a medium term the supply demand equation can change very quickly.
Demand can tank and supply can bounce at the same time.
March 25th, 2010 at 1:55 am
“The important point though is that all transactions at the non-government level balance out – they “net to zero”. For every asset that is created so there is a corresponding liability – $-for-$. So credit expansion always nets to zero!”
This perplexes me (admittedly not difficult”
hi barnabyisright,
this propostion is not up for debate,
its pure and simple accounting,
that is in national income accounting terms, the creation of a financial asset by a bank loan perhaps results in a equal fianacial liability to the recipient of the loan. at a national level all these transactions in terms of balance sheet accounting all nett to zero.
the important point is , that the only entity that can add money or financial assetts without an attached liability is the government, because theoretically it can simply spend without going into debt.
so the way to get rid of the private sector debt problems is to either increase government spending or cut taxes or both
there is an another perhaps superior option in restrucuring the banking system and it assett term structure, but politicians seem reluctant to go down this path.
what mr joyce has to realise is that cutting the size of the government deficit is the last thing we should be doing if we want to solve our private sector debt problems.
that entity you talk of that lends money out at 0% is the government. it can get hold of your bsb and bank account details and deposit whatever it likes into your bank account, and in the process help manage your debt position, and it doesnt need to finance it with anything.
barnaby and the rest of them need to get rid of their budget surplus fetish/ideology, a ludicrous proposition for a country like ours and the position we find ourselves in.
March 25th, 2010 at 2:23 am
@ TITINT
“The system is inherently unstable but it is not because neo-classical economists made it that way.”
Can you give proof of this.
Humanity at large have a worldview which is of illusion and fantasy. As you can say that the ‘truth is there is no truth’, I can equality say that the ‘lie is there is no lie’. You say that it is wrong to described an economy via scientific theory. What about using an infinite loop?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_loop
a. Infinite loops usually cause the program to consume all available processor time.
b Infinite boom bust cycles usually cause the economy to consume all available ways to prevent real wealth creation.
“An actual infinite loop is something that can generally only be diagnosed by a programmer.”
So who or what is the programmer? I suggested to Steve Keen on this blog a month ago that is it possible that the actual observation of the economy can influence an economy. I am referring to quantum physics and the double slit experiment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEzRdZGYNvA
I can prove to you that what you see, hear, feel, taste or touch is only one of personal perceptions based on ones worldview. That is an absolute truth.
Is it possible that corporations can be seen as psychopathic entities?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3cEFAyJp1c
Right at the end appears Milton Friedman.
March 25th, 2010 at 8:19 am
mahaish,
I agree. We don’t need to borrow tokens made in the US and owned by China when we can manufacture our own tokens. An evil twin to our borrowing overseas to replenish bank reserves is our trade deficit – nothing we should be proud of.
Here is what I wrote 2 days ago in response to an earlier post written by Lyonwiss but didn’t have time to review and publish:
In regards to Bill Mitchell’s theories I think that his approach is valid. There is a fundamental difference between Greece and Australia – we have our own Treasury and Reserve Bank. They have only the Treasury.
Modern Monetary Theory offers an alternative description of the system – they claim that the vertical flow of money is caused by government spending rather than based on borrowing and taxation (used to acquire a pre-existing commodity). It is true that most of the capitalist countries have certain constraints in place which limit creation of money by spending and require borrowing from the bond markets but these are voluntary. This does not invalidate any claims made by the Chartalists. Money was indirectly backed by a pre-existing commodity before 1971. But whether we treat it as a pre-existing commodity or a commodity created by the very act of spending is a kind of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_or_the_egg dilemma (as I mentioned before). We no longer need to make the assumption that it is pre-existing. Banks do not make that assumption when they extend credit. They create money and then lay claims to the future income stream. Governments can do the same (by creating money they lay claims to goods and services which they want to be delivered) but they don’t need to worry about borrowing. Selling bonds is only a tool to soak up and park the excessive amount of tokens and an accounting operation. In Australia an agreement between the Treasury and the RBA needs to be altered and then bonds can be sold directly to the RBA. This is all we need to introduce the system advocated by MMT. I haven’t said that this alone makes sense right now. We are not very under-stimulated in terms of the aggregate demand (We are not like the US). Several other parameters would need to be altered if we want to severe the debt dependency on Li Ka-shings – resulting in replacing foreign borrowing by depositing locally created financial assets on the commercial bank accounts to increase the reserves.
To prove that Bill Mitchell’s theory about pushing extra money through the system is wrong one must prove that an increase in direct government spending will not cause an increase in the level of economic activity and then in taxes. Please be aware that erroneous NAIRU theory was exactly an attempt to prove that. It is not enough to say that “there will be CPI inflation due to the increase in high-powered money”. Monetarists claimed that the level of economic activity in the long run does not depend of the level of government spending due to whatever rational expectations rubbish (I don’t want to waste my time on this, you may find a critique on Bill Mitchell’s site).
It is difficult to prove the exact causality (spending first or borrowing first) as we are dealing with a system with bidirectional feedbacks. I do not blindly subscribe to Chartalism as it does not address certain questions about horizontal flows (addressed by the Circuit theory) but from formal accounting point of view there is nothing wrong there. If one dollar is created from the thin air by the government and spent on buying goods or services that dollar may come back in the form of extra taxes (or be saved).
People are not walking supercomputers constrained by “rational expectations” but they are constrained by the amount of money they can spend. This is the fundamental difference between Bill Mitchell and Steve Keen on one side and all the worshippers of the neoclassical economics on the other.
Please be aware that so called socialist economies worked exactly as specified by MMT in regards to vertical flows (and have elements of central planning with arbitrary set price levels for the most of the products – what is NOT advocated by MMT scholars). While communist system was inefficient in general, there were countries like Czechoslovakia which never experienced high inflation. So the argument that the monetary system similar to advocated by MMT cannot work is baseless. There may be some side effects but I am not sure whether another depression like one from the 1930-ties with all the social side effects ( like these: http://cbs3.com/local/Foreclosure.Suicide.Philadelphia.2.1584571.html )
is much better than ditching certain deeply entrenched pseudo-scientific opinions from the previous era of gold standard about the monetary system and experiencing some consumer price index inflation. We have had dramatic inflation of house prices and very few people complained about that, certainly nobody committed a suicide.
What I want to add is that direct government spending is a very powerful tool which must not be misused. Using it to further prop up the housing bubble will be plainly wrong. Using it to severe the dependence of the private sector on the borrowed capital and to build the infrastructure we deserve to have at the same time (e.g. public transport) will be right.
March 25th, 2010 at 8:46 am
AK/Mahaish
In regards to MMT, I believe it makes a lot of sense, ie a sovereign nation that has debt in its own currency can not become insolvent and that running a deficit , in particular during a recession is not only logical but a necessity.
Where there is an issue is in a market sense I believe a that oversupply of the bonds issued by the nation puts a limit on the borrowing ie If Burkina Faso issued 3 trillion in bonds denominated in Burkina Faso currency the amount of debt that the market would be willing to buy and soak up compared to 3 trillion USD.
This is where I think that at some point in time there may be a limit on the amount of bonds that people are prepared to pay without a larger increase in premium.
People may go for a Burkinian Government bond if it is paying 50% compared to a Aust Government bond at 6%.
Whilst in theory a sovereign nation that has its debt in its own currency can print away and not go insolvent, the market puts a limit as that debt still has to be bought.
March 25th, 2010 at 9:07 am
Timely news
A opens lower on Portugal’s woes
25/03/2010 7:47:01 AM
The Australian dollar opened almost a cent lower on Wednesday after losing ground against the US dollar following weak demand at a US bond auction and a credit rating downgrade for Portugal.
At 0700 AEDT, the Australian dollar was trading at $US0.9080/83 down 0.83 per cent from Wednesday’s close of $US0.9153/56.
During the offshore session, the local unit moved between $US0.9074 and $US0.9179.
“Really, it was a case of the Australian dollar being dragged lower by the stronger US dollar,” Bank of New Zealand currency strategist Mike Jones said.
US Treasuries, the euro, stocks and commodities slid as a downgrade of Portugal’s debt and weaker-than-forecast demand in a US bond auction added to concern that governments will struggle to fund swelling deficits.
Mr Jones said the stronger US dollar had two supports — a weaker euro, and higher US interest rates.
“We had a slightly weaker euro which boosted the US dollar and also a surge in US interest rates, so both of those factors acted to push the US dollar higher and that dragged on most of the major currencies overnight, dragging the Aussie down from about US$0.9150 to $0.9080,” he said.
But the Australian dollar reached new highs against the euro, holding above 68 euro cents in overnight trade.
Fitch Ratings lowered Portugal’s credit rating from AA to AA-, leading to a weaker euro.
The rating firm said the country’s recovery would be slower than in other eurozone countries.
Fitch says that could hurt Portugal’s ability to repay its debt.
“The Europe data was really good but the markets are really in a mood to sell the euro as we see ongoing wrangling on what to do about Greece,” Mr Jones said.
“That downgrade of Portugal just added fuel to the fire.”
The yield on the 10-year Treasury note rose to 3.85 per cent, the highest since January.
Mr Jones said the surge was driven by ongoing supply of US government debt and signs that it is outstripping demand.
“Those higher US yields increased the yield allure of the US dollar.”
Mr Jones forecast the Australian dollar would come under continued pressure ahead of the release of New Zealand GDP figures and a speech by RBA Assistant Governor Philip Lowe on Thursday, which is expected to be bullish.
March 25th, 2010 at 9:26 am
Alan #240,
Re Quantum Mechanics, have you heard of Carver Mead (Caltech)? Studied under and worked with Feynman. I recommend his book “Collective Electrodynamics”. Here’s a fascinating foretaste, from an interview he did some years ago –
http://laputan.blogspot.com/2003_09_21_laputan_archive.html
March 25th, 2010 at 10:12 am
Re #239,
“this propostion is not up for debate,”
With all due respect, opening a post in this way is tantamount to declaring, “What has been said/what I am about to say is right … you are wrong … end of discussion.”
I wonder how TruthIsThereIsNoTruth feels about that
Perhaps others will be kind enough to assist me then?
I note that mahaish did not address the very simple example I put forward at #204 -
— “If the non-government sector is charging interest – and the interest charged to borrowers is obviously at a % rate that is higher than what the non-govt sector must itself pay, else there are no profits, right? – but they are not also creating the actual interest component too (ie, a real unit over and above the actual principal extended to the borrower), then how can it be that all the transactions at non-govt level “net to zero”? WHERE DOES THE ADDITIONAL ‘INTEREST’ COMPONENT COME FROM that constitutes the banks’ profit?
That observation / concern seems to be justified by Bill’s subsequent statement -
“When a bank makes a $A-denominated loan it simultaneously creates an equal $A-denominated deposit. So it buys an asset (the borrower’s IOU) and creates a deposit (bank liability).”
That loan is only principal, right? WHERE IS THE INTEREST COMPONENT? They haven’t created that.” —
Mahaish’s response did not even address my specific question about where the interest component comes from… vis-a-vis the ‘pure and simple accounting’.
Perhaps if I rephrase:
You have a previously barter-only village. There is no credit ‘money’. The law is changed. Now tokens called $ a rendered legal tender.
Bank Z makes the first ever loan to Person A. A loan account and a deposit account is opened by the bank in the name of Person A.
The loan is in the amount of 100 tokens ($).
The contract of loan between Person A and Bank Z requires Person A to repay the 100 tokens, PLUS 5 tokens.
So… how can Person A repay the 105 tokens?
If Bank Z (or other authorised token-creators) also repeats an identical token-creation process extended to other Persons as well, then ‘yes’, Person A can potentially repay 105 tokens to Bank A. How? By acquiring other people’s tokens by whatever means – trade, theft, etc.
But unless someone (the Govt?) literally hands out extra tokens to other Persons – that is, new tokens that have no corresponding double-entry-account liability on SOMEONE’S books, somewhere (or, the liability side of the new-tokens account entry is to be ignored ad infinitum) – then quite simply, there are only 100 tokens actually in existence.
With sincere respect to everyone, if you cannot (or will not) reasonably and logically explain to a less informed person just how the most basic, first principles example of a credit economy works, covering ALL factors (ie, including that Interest component), then it does seem reasonable to me that any subsequent arguments/’proofs’ on any more complex extensions of that basic example are perhaps somewhat vacuous. Absolutely no offence intended at all.
ak, very much appreciate your link to Steve’s paper at #208. I’ve digested most of it. I have a few quibbles that I’d prefer to ponder before posing to Steve and all. Unfortunately though, I’m not convinced that it answers my question re the simple example above.
March 25th, 2010 at 10:28 am
mahaish and ak,
Completely agree re the concern about foreign ownership, local token creation, etc.
FWIW, that is an additional reason why I started the BIR blog. It seems only BJ is (was) willing to voice such concerns in the public arena.
Someone earlier (mahaish?) criticised my support of BJ due disagreeing with his particular kind-of-debt protest. I fully concur with that specific criticism. However, I also think it is a good thing to support the one politician who is making any attempt to highlight problems of debt, whatever the form – because, if people begin to take notice of (however unimportant) the concerns raised about (say) Public debt, then there’s at least a better chance some will start to think, research, and discover the far more insidious debt concerns that we’re discussing.
I call it pragmatism.
March 25th, 2010 at 10:36 am
“The system is inherently unstable but it is not because neo-classical economists made it that way.”
Can you give proof of this.
This is just my opinion. I have no proof. But to me it is a bit like asking “prove to me that God doesn’t exist”.
In other words I thing the onus is on you to prove that neo-classical economists are to blame for the inherently unstable system.
To me the system is unstable because of the flaws in human nature. I think we are slowly learning how to make things stable in a pheasable way. The bigger the crisises caused by the instability the more learning happens. The GFC was a big lesson as far as I was concerned and from what I see in terms of the reaction to it at least from the finance sector there are many lesson being drawn from the experience.
How about next time you or anyone calls someone a neo-classical economist I ask for some proof of that.
March 25th, 2010 at 10:41 am
BIR,
Barnaby Joyce is not the only politician making noise about debt. The entire liberal party was using labour’s spending as ammunition in parliament. When Barnaby came along with a gaff or two he put them on the backfoot and now they’ve moved on to other issues because it actually looks like at the moment the economy is much stronger than treasury predicted and criticising the government for its actions at the moment is political suicide.
March 25th, 2010 at 10:47 am
debt restructuring/debt jubilee !
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-countrywide25-2010mar25,0,7081426.story?track=rss
March 25th, 2010 at 10:58 am
TITINT,
Yes, you’re right, fair call mate. I don’t disagree with a word of that.
Though in my defence, you’ll find that in a very early post somewhere I explained that THE prompt for my starting the blog, was quite simply my anger at how BJ in particular has been smeared by all and sundry as an idiot who noone should pay any attention to, when he’s actually more ‘qualified’ to comment than the entire Govt economic trio combined.
Meanwhile, the person who should by rights be making a song ‘n dance about Govt fiscal mismanagement – Hockey – was silent.
It makes me quite angry when anyone’s views are ridiculed by smart-arse know-it-alls largely due to their not being ‘one of us’ (ie), a polished-speaking, media-trained monkey. Especially when there is more than a grain of truth in their views.