After extensive and much appreciated critical feedback on the draft designs, this blog entry showcases the three T-Shirt designs I’m producing for the Walk to Kosciuszko.
Each has the words “I was hopelessly wrong on house prices. Ask me how” as required by the bet. Each also has a graphical answer to the question:
- Timing;
- Our Debt Bubble; and
- Government manipulation of the market in the form of the First Home Owners Grant.
Some blog members have made strong cases for a plain T-shirt, but I will stick with the graph-augmented designs. I entered public debate to make the points that (a) we were in for a serious debt-induced economic crisis; and (b) that conventional economic theory had helped cause this crisis by ignoring the role of credit. I intend using this Walk to continue communicating those messages.
I’ve taken aboard the observations that the distorted text made it harder to read both the text and the graphs, but I am placing the text strategically in each graph to emphasise the message of each T-shirt.
Some bloggers have also argued that I should replace “Walking against Australia’s property mania” with “Walking against Australia’s property bubble”. I am sticking with mania, because I believe that future generations, looking back on this period, will regard it as at least the equivalent–and probably the Master–of previous ages of delusion like the Tulip Mania, the South Sea Bubble, and John Law and the Mississippi Company. Charles Mackay popularised the word “mania” to describe such periods in his masterful Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, and I think that term fittingly describes the period of delusion we are living through.
If the above choices mean that the T-shirts work less well for visual bites on TV and the like, so be it. I would rather see them as historical artefacts first, and communication devices second.
1: Timing
The first T-shirt shows CPI-adjusted house price indices for Japan, the USA and Australia, starting from the common date of June 1986 (the earliest date in the ABS time series for established home prices).
Japan’s real house price index rose by 54% between 1986 and 1991 during its Bubble Economy phase, peaked at 154.75 in February 1991 in the early days of the Bubble’s bursting. By March 2009 had fallen to 63.961–a fall of 58% over 18 years.
When Japan’s Bubble Economy fell into the heap that became known as The Lost Decade–and which is now closer to The Lost Two Decades–there were numerous commentaries that something as absurd as Japan’s bubble could never occur in America, given its much more efficient and transparent financial system. As a well-educated Minskian economist, I scoffed at the time at such reports, but even I didn’t appreciate how accurate my scepticism would prove to be.
The American real estate bubble–which began in 1997 after a period of relatively depressed prices after the 1990s recession–clearly dwarfed Japan’s. Between 1986 and late 2005, American real house prices rose by almost 88%. They then fell 36.5%, before starting to rise again recently–with the US version of Australia’s First Home Owners Grant playing a large role in the turnaround. Though prices have apparently bottomed, there are plenty of arguments to expect this to be only a temporary respite–from the size of the inventory of unsold houses to the approaching wave of defaults by mortgagees whose Alt-A “Option ARM” mortgages are about to reset).
However, both the Japanese and American house price bubbles are pygmies compared to Australia’s bubble. Australia’s still unburst bubble drove the real price of housing to 140 percent above the level of June 1986–that is, real house prices are now 2.4 times what they were in mid-1986 (the peak in real terms is still the pre-First Home Vendors Grant level of January 2008, though the nominal index is now 8 higher percent than then).
2: Our Debt Bubble
The reason that our house price bubble has kept going while other less hardy companions have already popped is the same old same old: debt. The T-shirt itself emphasises the aggregate level of private debt to GDP over the last 150 years, to make the point that this is the biggest debt bubble in our history. The previous two record highs were in 1882 at 104% of GDP, and 1931 at 77% of GDP. Today’s record is 158% as of March 2008.
This comparison actually understates the degree to which our current debt predicament is worse than any previous one, since those previous peaks were affected by deflation: the debt to GDP ratio rose between 1930 and 1931 (and 1890 and 1892) despite falling debt levels, because output and prices were falling faster than debt. In the 1930s, this phenomenon increased the debt to GDP level by about 10 percent over its pre-crisis peak.
We have yet to experience deflation, and yet our current debt level already far exceeds those previous peaks.
Household debt has played a pivotal role in this bubble. The next chart (which won’t be used for a T-shirt) makes that point. Mortgage debt rose fivefold (as a percentage of GDP) between 1990 and today. Without this debt binge, Australia’s private debt to GDP ratio today would be only slightly above the 1930s peak, rather than being twice its level.
The chart also highlights one other important point: a large reason why Australia has had such a mild GFC so far is because Australian households were enticed back into debt by the First Home Vendors Boost, and by the impact of the Government stimulus package upon household disposable incomes.
Households were reducing their mortgage exposure prior to the introduction of The Boost: mortgage debt had peaked at 81.3% of GDP in June 2008, and was trending down prior to the Boost. It then hit a bottom of 80.3% in December 2008 before rising to an all-time high of 86.8 in January 2010.
The change has been less extreme when mortgage debt is measured against Household Disposable Income (HDI), since the Australian government’s stimulus package and the interest rate cuts by the RBA boosted household incomes by almost ten percent last year. As a result, mortgage debt fell only slightly as a percentage of HDI, from 133.6% to 130.3%, and it took longer to fall. But ultimately, even though incomes had been boosted so substantially, the increase in mortgage debt last year finally exceeded the increase in incomes: by January 2010, the mortgage debt to HDI ratio had hit a new peak of 134.2%
The overwhelmingly important reason why this happened is the policy that the Government called the First Home Owners Boost, and which I describe by the more accurate name of the First Home Vendors Boost. As the final T-shirt shows, this is the fifth time in Australia’s recent economic history that the Government has manipulated the property market as a means of stimulating the economy.
3: The First Home Owners Grant
The First Home Owners Grant was first introduced in 1983; while it’s hard to locate discussion on why the grant was introduced (here’s a Hansard link for anyone with more time on their hand than I have to research this), the Grant was introduced when Australia was deep in the recession of the early 1980s, and during the first year of the new Hawke Labor Government. It is therefore likely that then, as now, the Grant was intended to boost economic activity by encouraging the housing market.
That was explicitly the purpose to enhancements to the Grant in 1988, in the aftermath to the Stock Market Crash of the previous year. The 2000 reintroduction of the Grant by the Howard Liberal Government was ostensibly a short-lived boost to the housing sector to get it over the impact of the introduction of the Goods and Services Tax (GST), but it was quickly turned to its customary role of boosting economic activity when a recession was feared in 2001 and the Grant was doubled.
The introduction of the GST is long forgotten of course, but the Grant lived on–and it was then boosted again in September 2008 as part of the Rudd Labor Government’s stimulus package to fight the GFC.
Each time it was introduced, the Grant worked as intended–and it worked not merely because it injected additional Government money into the economy, but also because it encouraged Australians to take on more mortgage debt. Each additional A$1,000 was turned into anything up to an additional $10,000 of buying power, so that while the Buyer got an additional $7,000 from the Government, the Seller (after a very satisfactory auction…) got an additional $30,000 or so from the buyer’s bank.
The Seller then used this money in turn to get a still larger loan from their bank, so that the Grant money was levered at least twice.
This double leverage is a major reason why we have a housing bubble today–and why we had one in 1988, and 2001 before that.
I don’t, like some analysts, blame the housing crisis solely on government policy: for me, the ultimate cause of our housing and financial crises will always be the innate willingness of the financial sector to extend debt. But it is certainly obvious that Government meddling in the housing market has seeded a bubble that the financial sector has then been only too willing to exploit.
As long-time readers know, I railed against this latest manipulation of the housing market when it was first introduced, and again when the scale of take-up of the Boost was first reported. My first post was the only one to draw a response from a Government Minister to any of my writings. Though this reads like a form letter that many critics of this policy may have received, the exchange is still worth reproducing here:
—–Original Message—–
From: Steve Keen [mailto:S.Keen@uws.edu.au]
Sent: Tuesday, 14 October 2008 8:59 PM
To: undisclosed-recipients:
Subject: Debtwatch comment on First Home Buyers Policy
I argue in the attached that doubling the First Home Buyers grant is a continuation of the policies that caused the economic crisis in the
first place.
Associate Professor Steve Keen
From: Plibersek, Tanya[mailto:Tanya.Plibersek@fahcsia.gov.au]
Sent: Thu 16/10/2008 5:19 PM
To: Steve Keen
Subject: RE: Debtwatch comment on First Home Buyers Policy [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Dear Steve
Thanks for your email about the First Home Owners Boost announced by the Prime Minister and Treasurer. I understand the concerns you raise in your email, however, as well as helping Australians into a home of their own, this measure will bring much needed stimulus to the housing market to support the Government’s macroeconomic agenda at a time of serious global uncertainty.
Housing is very important to the Australian economy. Investment in housing accounts for about 6 per cent of the overall economy, and housing is the major source of financial security for millions of Australians and their families.
Expanding support for first home buyers in this fashion is right for the uncertain economic conditions that we now face. It will also help to shore up housing activity in a sector that may otherwise slow. I have attached a fact sheet which provides some more information about the announcement.
Best wishes
Tanya
From: Steve Keen [mailto:S.Keen@uws.edu.au]
Sent: Thu 16/10/2008 7:05 PM
To: Plibersek, Tanya
Subject: RE: Debtwatch comment on First Home Buyers Policy [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Dear Tanya,
I appreciate your perspective, but I remain of the opinion that this is a misguided policy.
The housing market was seriously over-stimulated by debt-financed speculation in the last one and a half decades, and most of that stimulus did far more to boost price levels and increase unaffordability, than it did to increase supply.
The financial security promised by housing has become financial insecurity in the USA and the UK, and much of the OECD, and it will inevitably prove so for Australia too, which as you are aware has the most expensive housing relative to incomes in the OECD. True security only exists when house prices keep step with incomes. When they rise faster for sustained periods, on the back of even faster increases in debt, the financial wealth created is both fictitious and fragile, as we are now seeing on the daily news.
Part of the reason for Australia’s speculative bubble [I have made a slight grammatical edit here of the original] is the plethora of schemes in Australia which encourage speculation on house prices–from negative gearing, to capital gains tax at half the rate of income tax, the exemption of capital gains on principal residences, and of course the first home buyers scheme.
I would be far happier to see schemes to support renters and strengthen their rights, than yet another to encourage first home buyers into a grossly overvalued market.
Nonetheless I appreciate your email, and would like to keep in contact about this and the broader issues involved in our economic crisis.
Sincerely,
Steve
Now The Boost is behind us, and the evidence is in on its impact. There is no doubt that it stimulated the economy–possibly as much as the rest of the stimulus package and the RBA rate cuts combined. It also stimulated house prices through the roof–and it’s the main reason why I’ll be walking next month.
But it worked by seducing Australians back into debt, since (as I observed in a previous report), house prices can only continue rising compared to incomes if debt continues to rise faster still. This could continue after The Boost if the fire the Government lit in the market was carried on by “investors”–and that was and is certainly the hope expressed both by the Government and the property lobby.
My expectations, and that of many other critics like Adam Schwab, was that the FHVB would boost buyer numbers while it lasted, but cause a slump (in First Home Buyers at least) when it finished because (a) it would drag in many would-be First Home Buyers who would have purchased in later years into purchasing in 2009, thus inflating 2009 numbers at the expense of subsequent years; and (b) it would inflate prices so much that many other would-be First Home Buyers would decide to continue as renters instead.
That’s just from the borrowers side; the surprise move by Westpac to reduce its maximum LVR from 92% to 87% also made me feel that, just maybe, the days of rising leverage driving house prices were coming to an end. That doesn’t sound like much, but it means that a purchaser who had her eye on a $1 million dream home and had the requisite funding prior to the change would now have to find an additional $50,000 in cash to bid the same amount–that’s a 62.5% increase in the deposit required to come up with the asking price wanted by the vendor (from $80,000 or 8% of the purchase price to $130,000 or 13% of the purchase price).
The question then is whether the “investors” who’ve been enticed into the market by the promise of rising prices could outweigh an inevitable fall in the number of First Home Buyers and the start of banks unwinding their excessive leverage beneath house prices.
Preliminary data doesn’t look that crash hot for the property bulls on both these fronts. Both the number and the value of new mortgages took an unprecedented fall once the FHVB expired, as the next two charts show.
So the odds are high that the ending of the FHVB will be one of several triggers for the long overdue bursting of the Australian property bubble–along with the unwinding of excessive housing leverage and the slowdown in the rate of growth of mortgage debt. The FHVB will then turn out to be what I anticipated: a short term success that sets up the conditions for a long term failure, and at the expense of the quarter of a million Australians who were enticed into mortgage debt by this temporarily successful but ultimately irresponsible policy.
For that reason, the T-Shirt I’ll be wearing on day one of The Walk is number 3 above.









March 20th, 2010 at 7:58 am
Pragmatist,
I fully agree with you that we need to (partially) replace income and value added taxes with land (and natural resource usage) taxes. However this should be just an element of the broader reform, probably the most difficult to get implemented.
Steve’s proposals are complementary and they are compatible with the land tax reforms.
Personally I would even add considering replacing charging interests (usury) with shared equity schemes involving charging fees for renting the property co-owned by the bank (based on the Islamic and middle age European systems). Banks would still effectively be able to create money but they will be forced to be more risk-averse and share more responsibilities with the debtor.
Alan,
What are the Chinese thinking? The Mainland Chinese oligarchies are trying to do the same but better. You think that the post-communist system there is less rigged?
March 20th, 2010 at 8:30 am
Some entertaining banking/accounting logic -
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-march-17-2010/in-dodd-we-trust
Jon Stewart explains how individual rights might be the same as a corporation. And with the help of a personal ratings agency, everything is easier.
March 20th, 2010 at 9:57 am
ak,
“I would even add considering replacing charging interests (usury) with… Banks would still effectively be able to create money but they will be forced to be more risk-averse…”
Banking – in particular viz. their powers to create money via debt – is grossly immoral and unjust. It should be outlawed.
Most people in our society go to work 5+ days a week, slaving away in a job they often do not enjoy, all in order to repay (with ‘interest’) a phantom that a banker created – with zero real labour – simply by clicking a mouse a few times.
The result of our tolerating the existence of banking is a lifetime of sweat and toil, stress and tensions, family breakdowns, and resultant societal discord for most. Massive acquisition of real wealth assets, enormous political and societal power for a very few.
That is Wrong. Immoral. Unjust.
IMHO, economic theoretical arguments be damned. ‘Modern’ banking is completely immoral. A parasite on humanity. On a moral level, the fundamental action of the banking industry is utterly indefensible.
In the absence of better suggestions, then given our society has developed over many hundreds of years (British Empire) allegedly based on underlying ‘Christian’ principles, then I’d vote for a neo-biblical model.
No usury of any kind permitted – including Islamic sidesteps. All outstanding debts repudiated after 7 years. Any property offered as collateral and lost due inability to repay, restored to original owner or his/her heirs after 49 years. If you want to engrain real risk aversion in lenders, that’d do it.
As an aside, I find it appalling when I see banking and lending at interest defended on the argument that the lender ‘deserves’ a return on their money.
Firstly, in the modern sense of banking and lending that is clearly fallacious – they make a return not on ‘their’ money, but on ‘money’ that they created by clicking a mouse.
Secondly, from a moral and also a ‘for the good of society’ perspective, why should he who self-evidently has more than he needs, be permitted (nay, encouraged!) to now sit on his backside and use his excess of wealth to make easy profits directly off the back of years of labour of others?
March 20th, 2010 at 10:07 am
burrah @ #100,
A fascinating article, thank you for that.
March 20th, 2010 at 10:45 am
A topical insight into the “morality” of the banking industry –
“Former Lehman Executives ‘Giggle’ at ‘Nonprofessionals’ Who Think Losing Billions of Dollars Is a Big Deal”
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/03/lehman_executives_nonchalant_a.html
March 20th, 2010 at 10:57 am
Go after all assets of the financial elite, clear evidence in court of fraudulent and corrupt balance sheets.
Nonsense of transfering stolen wealth to their spouses name and saying they are broke has to stop.
Fabonacci was not only great mathematicain was also involved in pisan polititics for instance a chief magistrate was not paid for his services until after his term of office had expired at which time his administration could be investigated to determine if he had earn his salary.
Same system could be use today on stock options directors will not be paid for atleast 10 years.
100% sure directors would be more careful with shareholders money forces them to think long term, realise their own wealth was on the line.
Massive debt would not happen under a transparent and accountable system.
March 20th, 2010 at 11:33 am
Re #105,
That link now seems to be perpetually timing out, so here’s an excerpt:
How do you think former Lehman Brothers executives felt about the recently released report on the firm’s failure that reveals, among other things, the firm used a weird accounting practice known as “Repo 105? to move $50 billion of toxic mortgage assets off its books in order to make its balance sheet look healthier? Embarrassed? Regretful? Are they thinking to themselves Wow, in retrospect, that does look pretty bad. What were we thinking? Not really, no. This morning’s Post reports that former CEO Richard Fuld feels “vindicated” by the report, since Repo 105 is not illegal, but merely kind of skeazy. Others apparently feel the same way: “I’m like, whatever,” a former managing director of Lehman London tells the Observer. “When I read this, I giggle a little bit, because $50 billion is a drop in the ocean.”
The “yappers” who are shocked by it, he said, are merely unsophisticated “nonprofessionals” who are just looking for someone to point the finger at for the near-collapse of the financial system. But as amusing as it is, it’s also kind of sad, really, said another executive, that people are just so stupid. They’re like a bunch of animals. Like wild, ignorant bulls, starved into rage, stupidly crashing around and driving their horns into things just because they don’t know what else to do.
“They just want to be mad and don’t know what they’re talking about and want to be outraged.” After an interview, that executive sent a follow-up email comparing the widespread furor over Lehman Brothers to the groupthink that sent America into Iraq after Sept. 11.
Only a few people are smart enough to understand *the truth* of the matter, which is that ultimately bankers are smarter and better than everyone else, always have been always will be. Not that it’s fun to have this knowledge! Quite frankly, it is a terrible burden, because no matter how much you say it and how true it is, no one wants to believe you.
March 20th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Steve,
Re: # 97
“http://www.debunkingeconomics.com or the lectures tab here?”
Both. I also mentioned Minsky re: disequilibrium. Biology and field work are her passions but I pointed out that neo-classical thinking is as much a threat to the environment as it is to economies. She will have a copy of Debunking Economics shortly.
March 20th, 2010 at 2:40 pm
Barnaby that link is brilliant.
What I understand from the message we are so dump down we would rather watch America Idol or the cricket.
Dump down T shirt maybe the way to go seems everybody too busy to worry about our massive debt we are different in Australia alot smarter.
However bankers in the USA have not got it that easy worry about security, protests outside their homes and some nutter raging bull ready to sort them out.
Not over to the fat lady sings!
March 20th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
Who says banks create deposits? Steve Keen and …. the Bundesbank!!
If you read the text the title should read:
“German Central Bank Admits that Deposits are (not Credit is) Created Out of Thin Air”
“Money creation by commercial banks”
“The commercial banks can create money itself, the so-called bank money. ……. This credit increases the deposits of customers on its current account – it creates deposit money, which increases the money supply.”
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/german-central-bank-admits-credit-created-out-thin-air
March 20th, 2010 at 8:00 pm
burrah #100
It proves once again the power of one. It doesn’t matter what you are up against: big corporations, big governments etc. so long as they are corrupt and therefore weak, a single individual can win. Michael Burry (with Aspergers) is an inspiring and empowering story.
March 20th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
BarnabyIsRight,
I would be careful in condemning the whole modern banking system. It may offer certain competitive advantage. The system has to be tamed so that it offers benefits to the society. If an entrepreneur wants to scale up production of his/her invention – banks are to lend money. Making profit on investment does not have to be immoral.
What is in my opinion morally questionable in the current system is that it is luring a lot of people into debt servitude and then pushing some innocent people into unemployment and ruin.
March 20th, 2010 at 9:03 pm
ak,
I have no problem with the modern banking system if three fundamental changes are made:
1. a full-reserve banking system is phased in to replace the fictional reserve system under which we now suffer,
2. interest rates are floated, and
3. no bank is considered too big to fail.
March 21st, 2010 at 9:16 am
ak,
I’m reminded of the words of Henry David Thoreau – “There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.”
We can hardly consider ourselves open-minded or contrarian thinkers, if we defend the banking system – or simply close our eyes to its obvious evils – by reference to its alleged ‘competitive advantages’. Surely we can conceive of ways in which society can indeed benefit from any genuine ‘advantages’ of banking, without burdening humanity with its manifest evils too?
You’ve mentioned the example of an entrepreneur wishing to scale up production. Fair call. But why must we accept banks – and in particular, the modern fractional reserve system – as the means to provide investment capital? Seriously. I utterly fail to see why we think banks (as we know them) are somehow a ‘necessary evil’. We must be aware of subconscious, ingrained limitations on our creative thinking, due to all of us having only ever known and experienced the modern banking system in our lifetimes.
At risk of again betraying my economic theoretical ignorance, here’s one suggestion. Just to prompt debate and better ideas.
Why would it not be feasible to eliminate the modern banking system completely. Replace it with Government / Treasury-run “banks”. That is, in the sense of entities whose sole role is (a) the supply of money growth, perhaps commensurate with population increase (ie, linked to Births/Deaths register), in order to stabilise at a prescribed LOW level any whole-of-economy ‘inflation’, and also (b) the supply of additional investment capital (at zero interest) for specific projects, industries, inventions etc that (subject to thorough Business Planning, Cost-Benefit analysis etc) do genuinely offer a demonstrable, whole-of-society, long term sustainable benefit opportunity. And finally, have a Public Service department (or indeed private entities subject to strict regulation and transparency provisions) provide completely fee-free general “banking” services, that is, in the sense of safe-storage of physical cash for the public.
I’m broadly aware of the standard arguments against giving Govt’s “the keys to the printing press”. Personally, I see it as an illogical and intellectually limited argument. An anachronism from the days of Kings and Sovereigns, where no oversight and public transparency were practicable. IMHO and limited knowledge, it seems the only logical hindrance to making elected Govt’s directly responsible to the electoral public for the nations monetary flows, inflation et al, is merely the availability of transparency mechanisms. Surely in our modern IT tech world, that is a problem that can be overcome? And even if not, frankly, I would greatly prefer (compared to present) a system whereby there can be no question in the public mind just who exactly is responsible if there is (say) system-wide price inflation, or malinvestment, or misallocation of capital, or asset bubbles etc.
With regard to the current mood for ‘regulatory’ changes to suuposedly rein in the ‘excesses’ of the banking industry, IMO this is no more than ‘hacking at the branches’. It is akin to saying, “We will place restrictions on the areas of the body where the parasite can roam free”. Which ultimately achieves nothing of substance, because it fails to recognise that the parasite is, by definition, a bloodsucker. Like a leech, it doesn’t matter where on the body it attaches itself. And the only thing it really gives back to the victim host is a dulling anaesthetic so you won’t notice it, and, an anti-clotting agent to keep your blood flowing freely.
The only solution is to get rid of the leech entirely – and treat the wound that leaves the host itchy and in minor discomfort afterwards.
March 21st, 2010 at 9:44 am
Ak
“I would becareful condemning the whole modern banking system”
What Barnaby trying to say too big to fail is not working.
We need get back to community banking a local bank manager who really cares about his local community.
Small banks are the answer.
Big banks need to fail.
Our politicians need to realise that the world will survive without these rotten big companies and small business is the real backbone of the economy.
My biggest concern Ak we may have major political unrest in the world if we do not sort out “too big to fail” early.
March 21st, 2010 at 11:06 am
Hi Guys,
My sister received the first invoice for her house contruction as the slab is about to be laid down. Guess what the total GST is around in the ball park of the First Home Buyers Grant. I dont think the GST is the end but there are several other taxes involved. Landcom has jacked up the price for the same 450 sqm lots by 50K. 280K was then now you cant get anything below 330K for same sized blocks. There goes mine and my brothers plans of moving near by because of child care convenience.
I cant believe those who voted for the Howard/Costello and his GST plans. If they really cared for housing afford ability they would abolish all these crazy taxes. GST on a housing loan that you will probably pay back in 25 years? That basically what it equates too. Taxing on income earned as well as interest is not enough, you have to pay taxes for a housing loan that you cant pay right away but in future?
March 21st, 2010 at 12:32 pm
joshua #116, BIR #114, sj #115,
+100
March 21st, 2010 at 6:55 pm
Your home set to double in price
UP TO half of Sydney homeowners are set to become property millionaires, with house prices predicted to double in the next decade.
Figures prepared exclusively for The Sunday Telegraph by Australian Property Monitors (APM) show Sydney’s median property price is on target to reach $1.2 million, averaging 7.6 per cent growth per annum.
March 21st, 2010 at 8:11 pm
I am really surprised by the responses and I am waiting for our banking specialists to come up with a proper historic analysis why we have credit money in the first place.
Where did I defend “too big to fail” banks? I was saying exactly the opposite by proposing redefining the way credit is extended and charging for time value of money by paying rent on shared property rather than interests so that banks take more responsibility for the loan. This could be achieved by simply making certain types of transactions not legally enforceable. You give me money and want me to pay back the principal and the interests but I will not be legally obliged to pay any interests and if you send a Mafia debt collector I will call the Police.
Can I be sold as a slave to somebody in Australia or in the US? This type of property rights has been made invalid, illegal and non enforceable a long time ago. My property can be seized but I am still a free person unless I am dumb enough to work in certain Middle Eastern countries and default there.
If we want to earn money because of the time value of money – shared equity schemas offer a much more decent way of charging someone for the usage of my money of money created by an institution brokering loans and deposits.
In my opinion banning credit money creation (either by abolishing the current banking system altogether and replacing it by the state run brokerage or by imposing 100% reserve requirements) is not enforceable if certain types of transactions are not made illegal in every country in the world or strict isolation of countries is maintained.
We even cannot effectively ban short selling (a trader whom I asked gave me a straight answer – I would sell the index and buy the other products I didn’t want to short). We cannot ban tax havens or offshore gambling over the Internet unless drastic steps are undertaken. We cannot ban speculation as future trading involves a hedger and a speculator willing to take the risk (our Newcastle left-wing friend wanted to ban speculation and leave hedging but he hasn’t given any clues how to achieve this).
Why banning prostitution never worked? The same applies to banking, credit money creation and speculation I am afraid.
If 100% reserve ratio is imposed in country A but not in country B and if A imposes then strict control over trade and funds transfers with B – there is still a risk that country B (running a credit money system) will out-compete country A (full reserve banking) in the short and medium run. B may experience deeper crises but so what? The great economic cycle driven by debt accumulation seems to be about 80 years long – there is a plenty of time for country B to overtake A in terms of GDP and consumption level. How many prudent and morally conscious citizens of A will remain there if B offers for example 3 times higher consumption level?
A similar scenario was tested very thoroughly (the same country but two systems) in DDR/West Germany and North/South Korea.
You need to give good arguments that full reserve system is as effective as credit money system in regards to GDP growth in the country where it is implemented otherwise the results of historic evolution prove that we must live in the credit money system even if we don’t like it. So let’s try to fix it – this is what Steve is talking about…
March 21st, 2010 at 8:20 pm
“China warns US against yuan sanctions.”
“We will not turn a blind eye,”…
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/china-warns-us-against-yuan-sanctions-20100321-qnzk.html
You guys will have a black eye.
I know that this is not a “solution” as a great diversion from the unresolvable problems facing the American political and economic system is being prepared.
I don’t want to quote some predictions which I heard a year ago from my wise but pessimistic relative living in Poland.
March 21st, 2010 at 9:10 pm
Burrah,
MSM does it again. Newspapers wonder why the younger generation don’t read their crap. Anyway we should know better than to comment on a Sunday newspaper item. No stats, No links to information just conjecture. In he apst it has ben possible to double the price paid in SEVEN years some circumstances but accross the board…..come on in every postcode and worse no explains that nobody is better off.
March 22nd, 2010 at 7:19 am
Re #119 ak: As you know, I agree with you here. BIR, I’ll need to explain in more detail on The Walk, but I see the main problem as not banking per se but the fact that the current definition of capital assets makes leveraged speculation on asset prices profitable. I expect that the same would apply in a 100% reserve system as well, leading to its ultimate demise into a speculative mania.
As I attempt to explain in the Roving Cavaliers post, a private credit economy is not inherently doomed–it’s the uses to which that credit is put that cause crises.
March 22nd, 2010 at 7:36 am
PS. On the “to big to fail” nonsense, check out Sunday’s Non Sequitur cartoon.
March 22nd, 2010 at 8:14 am
Greenspan blames human nature–
It wasn’t us
http://www.economist.com/business-finance/economics-focus/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15719180&fsrc=rss
“The crisis, he argues, stemmed from a “classic euphoric bubble” whose roots lay in the sharp global decline in nominal and real long-term interest rates in the early part of the 2000s, which fuelled an unsustainable boom in house prices. Thanks to this euphoria, banks misread the risks embedded in complex new financial instruments. Mr Greenspan reckons the best remedy is to improve the system’s capacity to absorb losses by raising banks’ capital and liquidity ratios and increasing collateral requirements for traded financial products.”
March 22nd, 2010 at 8:20 am
Debt and productivity. Something for Steve’s comment on around his own analysis:
http://economicedge.blogspot.com/2010/03/most-important-chart-of-century.html
March 22nd, 2010 at 9:15 am
Steve, thanks, I’ll eagerly look forward to getting an education on the walk. Though you will have a tough time convincing me that the fundamental function of modern banking – lending ‘money’ at interest – is a moral and/or societal good. Much less an essential / irreplaceable societal function
On a slightly different topic (prices, inflation), have you ever read this book? -
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/019512121X/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books
March 22nd, 2010 at 10:33 am
ak re #119,
Please correct me if I’m wrong… I take it from your final paragraph that, in essence, you are defending the existence of a debt-creating banking system, because you see it as necessary for sustainable, competitive GDP growth? -
“You need to give good arguments that full reserve system is as effective as credit money system in regards to GDP growth…”
I’d like to pose a fundamental question. WHY is GDP growth a good thing? Seriously.
As I understand it, GDP measures the total “market value” (LOL! that ‘value’ itself a direct product of debt-creation) of all goods and services – produced? or actually sold? exactly which is it? – in a country in a given year.
So in a nutshell, GDP simply measures “activity”. It does not measure “quality”. Or “sustainability”. So, if our society buys (with bank-created debt) ever more trinkets and useless crap, and/or more hedonistic “services”, then you’ll get GDP growth. My fundamental question – Is that a societal good? Is that a long term, sustainable societal good?
From your reference to DDR/West Germany and NKR/SKR, and the resultant unstated implications (?) viz. the Western ‘triumph’ over the Soviet Union, I assume that the “GDP growth” you are defending is as seen in the Western world over the past century in particular? I would argue that the modern, ‘western’-style GDP growth is not good for society at all. Quite the contrary, in fact.
Let’s consider the real human and societal results of our western GDP growth. What our GDP growth is really measuring, is our multi-decadal growth – fueled entirely by bank-supplied debt – into an ever increasingly selfish, greedy, short-sighted, violent, amoral/immoral, superficial, consumer-dominated, nanny-state society.
If we look at the real history of Asian cultures (eg, Japan, China), we can also see that their past & present GDP growth follows exactly the same fundamental path. That is, from a “qualitative impacts-on-society” perspective.
These ancient cultures once had dignity and honour, respect for elders, beauty, art, cultural tradition, etc, as standout features of their society. These qualitative ‘measures’ were ingrained in society, and deemed far more “worthy” as indicators of both personal and societal worth (‘value’) than (say) how much crap you owned, or how often you paid 20 sacks of rice to get your hair set.
It’s interesting to note that in these cultures – in fact, in most ‘ancient’ cultures – “merchants” were traditionally considered the lowest class of society. Why? Precisely because they lived off other peoples’ labour. And they were commonly referred to as leeches, because they sucked money and goods off other groups in society.
In terms of your comment about the EFFECTIVENESS of full reserve vs debt-money vis-a-vis propagating GDP growth, personally I see that as a side issue to the greater question of whether GDP growth (as we know it) is a good thing in the first place. ‘Hacking at the branches’, etc.
However, in considering the question of effective functionality viz. driving GDP growth, I fail to see why a fully transparent, elected-Govt-run, interest-free credit-creation system cannot in fact be considerably MORE effective in sustaining GDP growth.
If the project or industry for which credit is requested is thoughtfully deemed a worthy societal good, then the necessary interest-free capital is created ‘out of thin air’ (ie, just as now). Vitally, however, there is much lower burden on the project/industry in repay that extension of credit out of profits, precisely because no interest is payable whatsoever. Thus all such worthy projects/industries become self-sustaining more easily, without the burden of repayment of interest to the Great Parasite on human society.
No doubt Steve will show me how the above view may be wrong during the Walk
March 22nd, 2010 at 11:55 am
A topical news item re post #48 –
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/news/investor-confidence-eases-worries-over-super-access/story-e6frg90f-1225843716435
March 22nd, 2010 at 12:30 pm
BarnabyIsRight,
It has been interesting skimming through your posts. It is actually educational to hear your perspective. As you admit yourself it is a little bit naive in that you don’t necessarily have all the detailed knowledge of the subject, particularly banking. But sometimes the naive but passionate view can reveal something that would otherwise be hidden from view by the burden of detailed knowledge.
I do have some detailed knowledge on the subject matter and have been trying to understand the system from an inside perspective. My original thoughts when I first started were similar to yours, afterall what are banks really producing right?
As I continue to observe and the puzzle pieces fall into place I realise the essential role banking plays in the current economic system. In fact the current economic system is very much based on banking. So yes one would need to change systems which is what you are promoting.
The crux of it is that the system you propose has the characteristics of a centrally controlled socialist system. This would maybe work if everyone was like you and motivated by the social good. If everyone was like you, we would not need the police, army, banking, expensive lawyers etc… The next part is obvious isn’t it – not everyone is like you and this is why we have the institutions that we have. Some of it ain’t pretty and does not fit into your eutopian point of view but it is not there to satisfy the small minority of people who feel the call for grand scale social improvement. The reality is a much more cynical perspective on human nature in it’s current state. You are perhaps centuries ahead of your time.
In terms of banking, I will give you a short summary of my current view. The main role of banking is that of intermediaries. As intermediaries the banks have become very good at managing the financial risks associated with handling large volumes of financial transactions of variable complexities. As such the banks facilitate the modern economy which is extremely complex in it’s construction, something which is not apparent because the bank’s make that complexity disappear and as they get more sophisticated the level of complexity in the economy increases. What we have now are early stages of a truly globalised economic system, which would not be possible without sophisticated banking. Without banking the level of economic activity would not be possible, the socialist countries of the late 20th centuries are an experiment in that.
Economic activity carries with it many financial risks, the banks as intermediaries act as a sink of that risk and mitigate it in many ways. This way companies and individuals can get on with what they are good at, mining companies are good at mining, Australians are good at splurging a great proportion of their future income on 500k 2 bedroom apartments and buying the latest television technology so they could watch cricket in better quality then they could possibly perceive. This is a complex subject and it has taken me some years to begin to understand it so don’t jump to simple conclusions too quickly. It is not a perfect system and indeed many changes are always needed, continual improvement is intrinsic to the system and in my opinion is what makes it effective. In terms of a regulatory and reformist reaction to the GFC, the level of reaction is unprecedented and includes the mortgage market, but it doesn’t happen overnight and the public will not know about until the details are finalised and even then you would have to be reading some specialist news outlets to know about it.
March 22nd, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Mr Steve Keen
Nonsense of too big to fail comic of heads being cut off is dangerous and violent.
Some wise advice USA bankers are terrified, Mr Keen you don’t want to be seen as a person feuling violence.
In Australian right now social mood is changing to very negative.
Two elections are on a knife edge,mob violence and destruction of Bob Jane tyre centre recently.
You maybe surprise to know politicians are seriously thinking about too big to fail banks ACCC break them up into smaller banks.
I respect Barnaby comments I will not change my piont of view.
Status quo is not working Mr Keen.
As you are aware Mr Keen you are walking because of too big to fail,First homebuyers grant was done deal to protect the economy and the banks profits(Tanya made that very clear in the letter)
I suggest you read the Road to Serfdom Hayek Chapter Why the worst get on top.
We have some nasty, corrupt people in this country Mr Keen.
So as a supporter be careful.
Good luck on your walk and enjoy it.
March 22nd, 2010 at 7:28 pm
Hello all, this is my first post here and I look forward to an educational discourse.
After near fifty years of blissful ignorance I have spent the last few months trying to make some sense of what is going on in the economy. In my e-travels I have encountered various explanations of current events.
My best current view is that few commentators actually go to the heart of the problem. I agree that the mountain of debt is a massive issue but why must there be so much debt? The answer is obviously interest. If each year new money must be lent into the economy by the banks of equivalent value to principle paid plus interest paid (assuming a static money supply) then it is apparent that debt must constantly grow if the money supply is to be maintained. Such a system would seem to be inherently unstable as an ever increasing proportion of income (GDP) is needed to service debt.
The other issue I find problematic is that, given money is lent into existence by the banks, the (private) bankers effectively control the money supply. There are famous quotes about the immense power this control brings.
Not only do the banks control the money supply they also judge where best to lend it into the economy. I can’t finance a $50k piece of chemical plant (which produces income) but the banks are happily inflating a real estate bubble (aided and abetted by our own Government). It’s a joke.
Prior to 1923 or so we had a perfectly functional public bank in this country which achieved great things (like financing WWI at 1% interest). This great institution was eviscerated by the Bruce-Page government when control was handed to a nominated board, effectively handing it to private interests.
So my prescription is simple, give the power of money supply back to the people and give the people back their bank.
Cheers,
Mark.
March 22nd, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Dear Mark,
Welcome to Debtwatch. In fact, the explanation I give is rather different to your argument here. I recommend you read the “Roving Cavaliers of Credit” post on that front. It is probably the essential read to see how my analysis differs from standard critiques of finance.
In a nutshell, there is no necessity for debt to rise simply because of interest payments; but it is in bankers’ interests that it does rise, and our current financial system entices borrowers into accepting too much debt via the promise of unearned income from speculating on asset prices.
March 22nd, 2010 at 8:06 pm
TITINT,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Much appreciated.
I should clarify a couple of things. Firstly, my suggestion at #114 was just that, a suggestion to prompt debate amongst the more learned (that I can then learn from). I’m certainly not suggesting what I wrote there as a definitive model, per se.
More particularly, I was not advocating a socialist-style centrally-planned economic system at all. Perhaps you may have assumed that from my suggestion of an Elected-Govt-run replacement for adminstration of the credit-supply mechanism? I don’t necessarily favour a Govt-administered system at all – I just threw it out there as one obvious option. My principle interest is in a system that eliminates usury entirely, which I see as fundamentally immoral, unjust, and a gross negative for the advancement of human society. How that is achieved, is an open question.
I’d also like to see learned discussion of the pros and cons of any/all alternate mechanisms too. I see no reason why the basic concepts I’m talking about (elimination of usury, espec. viz. privately-owned debt-creation) could not be enacted by other than a Govt entity. For example, there appears no obvious reason to me why a wise and benevolent Sovereign.. or indeed, a Dictator… could not be sought to enact such a system.
For those who favour private ‘enterprise’ initiatives over Govt’s, then why not give responsibility for administering the supply of regulated, fully transparent, interest-free credit to public-spirited volunteers working in a charitable NGO? At risk of invoking that “utopian dreamer” label, why could this not be given serious consideration? Literally millions of public-spirited people around the world selflessly labour for free in all manner of charitable roles, precisely because they believe in doing something that benefits others. Provided that regulation and transparency mechanisms are in place – and I see Open Source software as a viable potential path to that end – then why not consider placing this responsibility in the hands of such people? If every citizen can check that the banking NGO is doing the right thing… where’s the problem?
The human race is doomed to suffer debt slavery, financial corruption, and all manner of related ills, whilst ever our view of money is so warped. We have allowed ‘money’ (and those who have the exclusive power to create it) to become the absolute Master of humanity. Money should be allowed only one role.. as a servant to all humanity.
Re your comments about the sophistication and complexity of banking, I’m always interested to ask the basic questions. Why is it sophisticated and complex? Was it always? Does it genuinely NEED to be? What is the benefit of complexity and sophistication in banking? What are the risks / dangers? HOW did it become sophisticated and complex? WHO really benefits from the sophistication and complexity?
Clearly, the sophistication and complexity of banking was not always so. I’d suggest that the increase of same over the past century is perfectly analagous to my comment about leeches. The increasing sophistication and complexity of markets is directly akin to the injection of anti-coagulant by the leech. That is, the rising ‘sophistication’ and complexity is not some kind of evolutionary inevitability at all. Rather, the truth is more simple: the sophistication serves the purpose of keeping the (our) blood flowing to the leech. I doubt many here would disagree that the more ‘sophisticated’, complex systems and products of the banking industry are designed by bankers and financial vested interests, solely to further improve banking industry profits, the sophistication and complexity increasing in a proportional relationship to their bleeding out society and “the system” in other areas. That is the true motivation behind the conscious creation of ‘sophisticated’ banking.
To wit, the complexity and sophistication are unnecessary to all except the banker. Especially if society is most interested in Quality, Sustainability, and IdiotProof-ability from our money system.
An example. If asked to drive 500,000km in one vehicle, I would not purchase a ‘modern’, sophisticated, turbo-diesel Kia. I’d purchase (for a tenth of the price) an old W123 Mercedes diesel. Or indeed, the simple, air-cooled, twin-cylinder ‘peasant-car’, the Citroen 2CV. And I’d be infinitely more confident in one of those unsophisticated vehicles providing functional, dependable, reliable service… I emphasise that word “service” … to this human being, over the long haul. Both examples are unquestionably far less ‘sophisticated’, far less complex than a ‘modern’ vehicle. But both exhibit that now increasingly rare thing called ‘quality’ in their engineering. They were both deliberately ‘over-engineered’, specifically with the aim of simplicity, longevity, and reliability. By contrast, modern ‘sophisticated’ vehicles are designed as a near-throwaway consumer item – the mechanicals will be essentially stuffed inside of 250,000km, the ‘quality’ of both engineering and construction is a joke by contrast to many simple designs of decades past.
So when it comes to consideration of the best design for an alternate credit-system … Ockhams Razor, anyone?
March 22nd, 2010 at 8:10 pm
Steve, thanks for pointing me / us to your “Roving Cavaliers of Credit” article. I’ve read it this a.m., but need to review the later, ore technical section to really get my head around the finer details. It’s a great, educational article… thank you.
March 22nd, 2010 at 9:49 pm
BarnabyIsRight,
1. I share your doubts whether GDP (consumption) growth at any price is good – keeping in mind that our resources are limited. So many neoclassical economists complain that governments borrow money from our children (what is technically incorrect). Virtually no neoclassical economists write about robbing our children from non-renewable resources and wrecking the environment so that it cannot recover.
2. Unfortunately we are hostages of the aggregate demand in capitalism as too many people would be unemployed and had to rely on the help from the others if deleveraging starts or demand drops due to any other reasons. So the system needs to start evolving in the opposite direction but the last thing I believe in is centrally controlled economy. Introducing taxation of natural resources usage might be a good idea because this will dampen the most wasteful activities and at the same time reward conserving the resources and stimulate technical progress. This has nothing to do with ETS and similar cheap political shots aiming at conserving status quo.
3. I totally disagree that traditional Asian or European societies were more humane than current Western democracies. These societies were built upon either a system of exploitation based on slavery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_seventeenth-century_China
or feudalism. It may be very interesting to actually follow the natural process of social evolution leading to the current banking and financial system. The rigid feudal rules eventually collapsed bringing down these countries which hosted them. Traditional societies were not only not humane but also inefficient.
You stated that “It’s interesting to note that in these cultures – in fact, in most ‘ancient’ cultures – “merchants” were traditionally considered the lowest class of society.”
This was also true in feudal Poland where aristocrats and clergymen didn’t engage in these low activities. The vacuum was filled by German or Jewish “outsiders”… It is difficult to find good articles describing ethnic issues related to the “merchants” written in English but here is one which I found after 15 minutes of searching (it presents the Jewish not Polish point of view but I believe it illustrates the point I want to make well enough):
“The Jews of Poland played an important part in the economic life of the country. They enjoyed unprecedented economic and social freedom in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. They were revenue collectors on behalf of Polish landlords, bankers, physicians, and Jewish autonomy grew to the point where the Jews virtually governed themselves.”
“In the middle of the seventeenth century, however, disaster struck Polish-Jewry, beginning with the Cossacks rising in the Ukraine against the Polish landowners, and the Jews hated from their role as agents of the landowners.
Under the arenda system, Jewish arendators took over practically all inhabitants of villages and estates, collected dues from mills and other establishments, exacted the required days of labour from the serfs, and even administered justice to them all. The arendator paid the landowner a fixed sum for a specified period and in return received all the income.”
“By the end of the 19th century, the Jewish population of Poland had become more and more dominant in the cities.
Their role in urban commercial ventures became more pronounced. By the end of the 19th century, a numerically small but highly influential Jewish professional class had made its appearance, particularly in Warsaw. The Jews, therefore, constituted an urban, middle-class and proletarian element within the great mass of Polish peasantry.”
http://www.dangoor.com/72frame.htm
Something similar happened in many other countries like for example Malaysia (where the descendants of Chinese merchants accumulated a lot of wealth what also led to a kind of social instability).
We may not like these processes but they did happen in many places in the world so there is probably a common denominator. These groups of people which were more open minded, better educated and not bound by obsolete way of thinking gained more influence and accumulated more wealth and power.
I would be very careful in trying to throw away something (capitalism and as a consequence our financial system) which is a product of a long evolution (especially because I have seen one attempt to “get it right once and for all” already). We should try to understand and fix our system rather than design yet another great utopia because the current system seems to be immoral. If some people really want to be greedy – their energy should be used for pursuing common goals rather than exploiting the rest of the society.
March 22nd, 2010 at 10:25 pm
BIR, TITINT ak and others,
First of all interesting discussion and ak i have been trying to write this reply over the past two hours while nursing my 5 week old so some of what i have said below echoes your thoughts in your last post #135.
With banking reform I think that there are so many issues that need to be addressed but the most important one is that we need to ensue that we do throw out the baby with the bath water.
I think that the system that we have has enabled a world of opportunities to those that have had the benefit of access to the system. Some of those benefits include business credit, payment transfer systems, consumer credit and yes, mortgage lending.
All these simple things have to some extent simplified life and enabled everything from the industrial revolution to the rise of the western middle class. It is also now providing opportunities to those in the third world that our ancestors first had access to 100′s of years ago.
However in its evolution I think that the system has become somewhat skewed and the base purpose of the system has been lost.
Banking leverage is an issue. Why do we provide higher ratings to mortgage assets vs business lending. It seems to be that the system is skewed to be more favourable from the bankers capital adequacy ratio position to lend for houses rather than for businesses.
Has the difficulty of access to credit for business (along with gloabalisation) due to the favourable treatment under the reserve system of mortgages over business lending led to the decline of the manufacturing base of western economies??? Maybe.
Has the favourable treatment of mortgage securities led to banks lowering lending standards for these securities??? Maybe.
So rather than getting rid of the reserve system altogether maybe we should look at reviewing banks capital ratios and in particular the ratings we apply to various instruments. We need remove imbalances that favour one over the other.
On the issue of private household asset price speculation I think that the best way to address this is by mandating minimum lending standards and maximum lending limits based on the income of the borrower/s.
Unlike Steve however I do not believe that we should set asset price limits based on an implied multiple of rent return (Steve, sorry if this does not represent your position). Unfortunately in a way this gives control of the variables to the FIRE industry – it wont take too long before the RE industry starts to inflate rents so the FI industry can increase asset prices it lends for.
Maybe I have missed some important issues or misrepresented and reduced complex ideas but this is my simple, uneducated understanding as i see things.
March 22nd, 2010 at 10:51 pm
Hi Everyone,
Just to show how greedy and Banks are I will explain.
Landcom had delayed and was not ready with the land. They however successfully managed to register an unfinished product with the council. This means that my sister could not submit her plans to Landcom’s design review panel for construction.
Landcom holds back 5K which is paid back to to the owner on completion which makes sure the house meets design guidelines as mandated by Landcom to make sure all houses in the the suburb meet certian standards. This amount is refundable only on completion of construction. Because of Lancom delays the builder was not allowed to access the site to do the actual survey as a result the architect could not draw up the final plans. The plans could not be submitted to the local council unless the Landcom’s design review panel approved the plans and that could not be done because he was not allowed access to the site.
We tried several times to get Landcom to get the their act together but instead they insisted to settle immediately since the land was registered and threatened to charge interest on an unfinished product. We thought they had no legal case because they said we could settle right now or when the land was finally ready(without charging interest) and offered a completion date that was after the date the slab had to be laid down. They did not provide a provision to settle in between. Unfortunately our solicitor was acting in Landcom’s interest not ours probably because of their almighty power.
We notified the bank to delay settlement by atleast 1 to 2 weeks because we thought Landcom had no case if it goes legal. In other words they were just exercising muscle power. The Bank St George got back with a response saying settle now or the offer for loan will be withdrawn. This cost my sister a 1000K. She actually had offers from other banks but it is not possible to switch at the last moment. Now that the slab has been laid down St George is taking it own sweet time to prepare the documents for the first home owners grant and are sending us the same documents to be completed again after we already submitted to them 4 months ago. St George insist they will NOT compensate for any interest owned. In fact they exercised their muscle power to settle against our wishes.
We had to pay an extra 750$ for a peg out survey for Sydney Water because Landcom were not yet ready and hence did not submit the proper plans to Sydney water. Landcom does not want to deal with it. Sydney Water insist Lancom did not submit the proper plans. The Bank does not want to get involved. Instead they are trying to drag things out.
There is absolutely no chance to take on these greedy good for nothing institutions. If housing affordability was such an issue they would understand the difficulties and distress of a First Home Buyer. Instead they are holding them to randsom.
March 22nd, 2010 at 11:16 pm
Hi again ak,
Re your point 3, I fear you’ve misrepresented what I actually wrote, and also the context in which I wrote it. I did not say that ‘ancient’ cultures were more ‘humane’. Rather, I referenced Japan and China particularly, and in the specific context of their “past and present GDP growth”.
I went on to say that these cultures “once had dignity and honour, respect for elders, beauty, art, cultural tradition, etc, as standout features of their society.” I think it is self-evident that those ‘standout features’ have declined significantly over time, and most notably, in concert with the influence of debt-fueled consumerism and the societal attitudes it encourages – greed, selfishness, superficiality, waste, materialism, et al.
The point I was trying to get at it was that the western view of “GDP growth” is something of a sacred cow. And IMHO, it should not be. GDP is merely a (fakeable) measure of ‘activity’, not of Quality or Sustainability. We can see by the historical examples of Japan, and latterly China, that even cultures that, for millennia, strongly featured NON-economic values (eg, dignity and honour) as being much more important in terms of self and/or societal “worth” than economic ones, are now losing those former features too.
I just want to be very clear that I am not in any way revering ancient cultures holus bolus. As you rightly point out, there was much to strongly criticise in these ancient cultures, forced physical slavery being just one. I would suggest, however, that modern debt slavery to the banking system is, in some ways, arguably more pernicious. For starters, a far great % of the total population is negatively affected by modern debt slavery. Much of the stresses and spiritual/psychological disquiet suffered by ‘modern’ humanity throughout our lifetimes arises, I believe, from a feeling of inner confusion that “this isn’t Right” (as in ‘good’, just, moral)… but our not being able to identify exactly why it is the way it is. By contrast, the physical slave of times past at least did not suffer this mental and spiritual turmoil.. his lot in life was clear, simple, and unequivocable. Physical slavery is and always will be utterly morally bankrupt, yes. But I trust you get my point? Oftentimes a sense of ‘mental’ slavery is worse than physical.
Interesting and valid points you’ve raised regarding the “merchants” and moneylenders etc of old, in most cultures. TITINT at #129 kindly commented that my views may be centuries ahead of their time. I’d actually suggest the contrary – we are all hundreds, perhaps thousands of years behind the times in terms of ideas, knowledge of what is good and what is not. I would argue that we are devolving into a worse state, not learning from the past and evolving into a better future. I honestly think I’m merely repeating basic truths about money and the fundamental evil of usury that have been known by thinking men and philosophers literally for millennia. Just consider the insights of some of the ancient Greek and Roman thinkers. Or indeed, barely 400 years ago, the exact same fundamental knowledge of the evil of usury was artistically expressed by Shakespeare in The Merchant of Venice. I’m sure there are many other examples.
Usury has been banned many times, in many cultures over the millennia. It may be very beneficial indeed for ‘modern’ dumbed-down, historically illiterate, short attention-span man to seriously consider why.
March 22nd, 2010 at 11:51 pm
BIR,
I thought that the end game in the merchant of venice was due to debt and the security behind that debt, not the implied interest (usury) on that debt.
However on modern debt slavery, I think that the beauty of the current system is that most individuals in western society at least have the option of choosing whether or not to be debt slaves – the fact that most choose to be debt slaves with 30 year mortgages does not mean that the system itself is bad.
Whether it be interest on debt, shared equity or any other form of financially engineered option, those with money will always be able to get their pound from those who dont but wish to.
On the subject of financial history, I think that Niall Ferguson provides a great understanding and insight of the origins of money and finance in his book the Ascent of Money. I can highly recommend it along with the DVD series.
March 23rd, 2010 at 12:34 am
Burrah #118
I read that article today.. It is absurd.
House prices in Beaumont Hills reaching over $2mil by 2019…
I cannot imagine the average family on a moderately higher (inflation) income bidding $2mil for the family home. To begin with, who is going to lend them the money.
Let’s say the banks decided to take a leaf from the American’s books, and they lend them the money.. assuming our average family could pull together a deposit of $200k.. Even at historically low current interest rates, that is a monthly repayment of around $12k…
The only rational explanation for the wild deductions within this article can be found in the APM disclaimer on the left hand side.. apart from recent trends ‘no other economic factors have been considered’.. Enough said
March 23rd, 2010 at 2:05 am
BIR,
While you envision banks as leeches, I think of banks as the heart of the economy. I think in both analogies blood is money?
In a way banking is the economy. How could you have a modern economy without banks, you could but it would me much smaller.
An idea that really takes a long time to sink in is that banking is all about managing financial risk. To the outsider there is an assymetry of information, you only know what goes wrong and therefore cannot understand what is actually right. Risk is enterprise, by lowering the relative financial risk you allow the economy more capacity for enterprise. Maybe it’s good to take comparison with countries that do not have good banking systems. Would investors go there? Would investors be created internally? No because there is no confidence, an investor could simply be defrauded amongst many other things. Scarce capital requires a much higher premium to go to high risk areas at the ultimate cost of that society because they have to pay a higher risk premium to attract any enterprise.
Why is it sophisticated. Simple answer to accomodate the growing needs of ever more complex clients. The outsider will think of all the “sophisticated” products being flogged to the retail public via sophisticated looking advertisements and I think the negative conclusion about that is a fair one but that is not what I am talking about. Giving people access to products like CFDs just makes a casino out of the economy. But this is not what I am talking about.
What I am talking about is the facility to run a modern economy. I am talking about sophisticated settlement systems, accounting systems, risk management, regulation, access to global markets, access to global capital markets these are the elements which make up a modern economy without which you are back in the middle ages. You mentioned buying an old mercedes benz, without banking that car would never have landed in Australia. The person importing that car has to have confidence that it is a profitable enterprise to do so and if they had to deal with all the financial risks associated with that simple exercise of bringing a car half way round the world it would simply not be worth the outcome unless someone was willing to pay a high enough premium to entice an importer to take that risk. But the financial risks are reduced by the finance industry. The finance industry takes on that risk and says for a small premium I will manage that risk. What do I mean by risk – how about the most simple fact that they can deposit money in Australia and have confidence that this exact amount will be received by a bank half way round the world, seems simple right but banks actually make a lot of money out of that and it is a risky business. Things go wrong money goes missing, but if not for sophisticated banking systems much more money would go missing and many more things would go wrong as I imagine they did say 100 years ago. The overall outcome is positive because the importer for a small premium eliminates the risks associated with the transaction, they also have an option to eliminate the risk associated with the timing of the exchange rate.
That’s a simple example. Now think of a complex mining company, shipping company, airlines. Think of all the financial risks they take on in their operation. If there was no sophisticated banking system to facilitate their needs they simply could not exist.
How is that being a leech on society anymore than a producer of sugary drinks or gossip magazines or any other arbitrary consumer good which tricks you into exchanging your hard earned for doggy biscuit reward.
It’s late and I am not going to proof read what I wrote so apologies for silly mistakes.
One final word on the recent preference of providing scarce capital to housing instead of enterprise. I’ll tell you how it works. Each department is like a seperate little business with a seperate budget and capital costs. So the mortgage department makes a lot of money, low risk so more scarce capital is allocated there. Business lending has been suffering so it is harder for them to make a case for a bigger slice of the scarce capital. Simple as that. Now why are mortgages lower risk and more profitable – this is reflective of two things. Firstly our society and secondly our policy. Australians are very happy to take on big loans and religiously pay them off for 30 years or so but seem to be more lazy when it comes to running successful enterprise without going bankrupt. And I think the policy in this country which supports this, as a potential first home buyer is deplorable. We support speculation into housing with tax breaks and smash enterprise with one of the highest business tax rates in the world.
March 23rd, 2010 at 2:55 am
Hi Steve,
Awesome site…..would like to order a tee shirt for a friend in Sydney….will watch the site for details.
PO
March 23rd, 2010 at 6:48 am
Thanks Steve, that explanation of credit money has certainly enlightened me somewhat regarding the role of the banks.
It’s going to take some time to work through your other material but I’ll ask a few questions just the same (you may recommend particular posts in response).
Many times we hear that RBA interest rate policy is a blunt instrument, I take it you would propose different mechanisms. What might these be? Is this lack of understanding of credit money common to many/all central banks?
If the banks largely profit from the different rates between deposits and loans would not a low interest rate economy be preferable to a high rate one given other limits on credit creation?
Is this the place for this type of discussion, I haven’t been to Talk Finance yet?
Mark.
March 23rd, 2010 at 7:35 am
Thanks Peekoil. T-Shirts should be ready soon, though I’ll only be able to supply them after I get back from a holiday on April 7 (leaving on March 26).
March 23rd, 2010 at 7:39 am
Re #143 Mark,
It appears from recent comments here that the Bundesbank has a more realistic view, but generally yes they are quite delusional: aware generally speaking that money is endogenous, but dominated by neoclassical thinking about the economy nonetheless.
I prefer a low interest rate regime coupled with a redefinition of capital assets–shares lasting 25 years on the secondary market, housing debt limited to 10 times the annual rental of the property being purchased. With those enforced, there shouldn’t be any need to manipulate interest rates in the first place. I’m not in favour of attempts to control the natural cyclicality of the economy; what I think matters is constraining its tendency to breakdown, and that comes from leveraged speculation on asset prices more than any other factor.
March 23rd, 2010 at 8:39 am
Thanks Steve, I’ve just read your submission to the Wallis Committee 1996. It’s a great primer to the FIH and really makes me begin to wonder what’s going on in the USA.
Are they in fact experiencing (the beginnings of) a debt deflation right now?
Can we expect the same in Australia when the real estate bubble finally bursts?
As a sidebar, I was speaking recently with a property developer in Brisbane and proffered the opinion that we were in a housing bubble. Talk about denial, the general thrust of his rebuttal was basically that “Australia is different”. Similarly, a recent piece on The 7.30 Report showcased the same attitude.
I remember when the GFC first started that you were somewhat visible in the mainstream media, are we going to have to wait for the bubble to burst before your ideas get more of an outing?
By the way,Max Keiser is one of my favourite commentators on matters economic and it was good to see you getting a run on his show.
Cheers.
March 23rd, 2010 at 8:41 am
BarnabyIsRight,
I agree with you that fake GDP growth at any price and debt fuelled overconsumption are bad for the individuals and for the society as a whole (except for a few groups). This is one of two reasons I do not subscribe to Modern Monetary Theory despite partially agreeing with their analysis of the flows within the fiat monetary system.
(My objections are:
1. The Chartalists just want to stimulate aggregate demand by government spending to achieve certain social goals but unless tightly controlled this will lead to actual increase in wasting natural resources. If 27% of construction workers are unemployed in the US what will the government achieve if all of them are given work? That sector has to shrink as it grew out of control during the credit fuelled real estate boom.
2. Massive government spending will inevitably lead to rebalancing the whole economy and dramatic reduction of the role of private capital.
The questions about possible financial instability when investors dump their financial assets not being able to realise any profits have never been answered. This instability may develop along the horizontal axis (credit money) – in the non-government sector.
See:
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=332
The critique of the Circuitist approach from the Chartalist positions is here:
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=1623
But MMT scholars have never properly addressed the issue of the instability of the credit money subsystem which was the root cause of GFC).
However we haven’t even started working on an alternative system as the most of the proposals put forward by the extreme Green lobby will only lead to the destruction of the current system. Nothing viable is proposed instead as “permaculture” resembles the system existing in the 1970-ties in the former Soviet bloc where people had to grow their own vegetables and keep chickens in backyards (backyards were often polluted with heavy metals – who cared then?). Imposing artificial poverty is not a solution – people will leave the country.
We have to start building nuclear power plants in every Australian city right now rather than keep talking about trading carbon dioxide emissions permits (ETS) while our export of coal is massively ramped up. This is the worst example of hypocrisy to me.
On the other hand implementing the Austrian proposals (no state intervention and gold money) leads to an inhumane system where some people will inevitably starve to death (“because they are stupid – they deserve that”). Again – this approach was tried and tested in the 19th century already (Irish famine). The Austrian model only works when GDP grows rapidly and wealth may trickle down from the rich to the poor. If the GDP doesn’t grow for a whatever reason and there is no income redistribution or artificial economy stimulation mechanism so severely criticised by the Austrians – some people have bad luck to be there. I will never agree with that approach after witnessing the social collapse in some places in Eastern Europe (not necessarily in Poland but in the former Soviet Union republics where I travelled frequently in the 1990-ties).
I still have more questions than answers. The real crisis of the current economic and social model will arrive when we run out of cheap oil and at the same time the ageing society will have fewer people who can work. The GFC is just a rehearsal…
The only little thing which gives some hope to me is that the Americans slightly moved away from the free market delusion in their health care system. It is yet to be seen whether they will do anything meaningful to address the enormous mess in the financial system.
March 23rd, 2010 at 9:26 am
ak re #147,
Agree with many of your thoughts there. Especially viz. your critiques of the Austrian school of thought and its real-world ramifications. I was once attracted by the idea of commodity-based money as a (alleged) barrier to currency debasement / inflation. But quickly came to realise that this too, is merely ‘hacking at the branches’. Moreover, if we are to view ‘money’ in a Right(eous) way, then IMO ‘money’ must be made 100% a servant of humanity. That must be the #1 goal. Therefore I came to the conclusion that our ability to address many of the problems and opportunities for mankind is greatly limited by a commodity money system. The only logical problem (to me) with fiat money is appropriate regulation, and above all, Accountability and Transparency. I see no reason why these cannot be easily overcome. It is not a question of genius, or creativity – it is merely a question of Integrity followed by Will.
BTW, thanks for spelling out what the “MMT” acronym represents for me.
March 23rd, 2010 at 9:51 am
Steve,
A new at ZeroHedge mentions you several times as well as providing links to your work. Scrolling through the comments on the article it is VERY interesting to watch the “lights going on”. ZH tends to attract some very savvy finance sector types so it is a good venue in which to showcase your work.
“Fraction … Er … Fictional Reserve Banking”
Submitted by George Washington on 03/21/2010 23:05 -0500
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/strikeoutfractionalstrikeout-fictional-reserve-banking
Example:
“And as Steve Keen notes – citing Table 10 in Yueh-Yun C. OBrien, 2007. “Reserve Requirement Systems in OECD Countries”, Finance and Economics Discussion Series, Divisions of Research & Statistics and Monetary Affairs, Federal Reserve Board, 2007-54, Washington, D.C:
The US Federal Reserve sets a Required Reserve Ratio of 10%, but applies this only to deposits by individuals; banks have no reserve requirement at all for deposits by companies.”
March 23rd, 2010 at 10:40 am
TITINT #147,
You are defending the banking industry on the premise that it is essential to the economy… that “in a way banking is the economy”. In one respect I agree with you there – banking IS the economy, but only in the sense that much of what we know as the ‘modern economy’ is (a) superfluous, wasteful, and harmful to society, and (b) would not exist in the first place if the banking industry had not outright created, or simply funded, whatever component of the ‘modern’ economy you are looking at at the time. It’s vital to look at the forest, not just the trees.
I would urge you to reconsider your thoughts on the ‘modern’ economy, and banking, by thinking purely in terms of Cause and Effect. Let me explain.
You wrote: “How could you have a modern economy without banks, you could but it would (b)e much smaller.”
Indeed. Precisely my point.
The ‘modern’ economy is thought of in terms of GDP. Right? And GDP is, as I have stated (and without contradiction to date), in essence just a measure of total ‘activity’.
Now what is a bank, in essence? If I understand Steve’s excellent tutorials correctly, a bank is essentially an intermediary. And we have allowed a banking system into human society that is not a Community Service… a servant to humanity. It is a pure profit-making intermediary. How does it make profits? Through usury. And speculation. (And an infinite variety of fees and charges for the existence of ‘accounts’ and on every possible transaction, of course). This now goes to the heart of all things human – the Motivation for actions taken.
It is in banks’ best interests (pardon the pun) that there be as much economic “activity” as is humanly possible. The banking industry’s ultimate profit potential is limited only by how much ‘activity’ they can foster. Which is why over time we have seen ever greater complexity in the economy. Every new ‘sophisticated’ arrow in the economic / markets quiver is, in reality, a new and greater profit-making opportunity for the banking industry that finances and acts as transactional intermediary. Consider just one example – commodity ETF’s. Banks came up with the idea. Set aside the marketing tosh, the reality is this is just a new ‘sophisticated’ banking industry-caused ‘activity’ that allows them to profit anew from transactional charges, financing (at usury) leveraged speculation, and offsetting their ‘risk’ (and profiting to boot) from packaging up and on-selling CDO’s on their leveraged investors’ loan portfolios that now have yet another new ‘investment’ to speculate on. Cause and Effect.
You wrote: “Why is it sophisticated. Simple answer to accomodate the growing needs of ever more complex clients.”
I disafree 100%. The ‘sophisticated’ markets, ‘complex clients’, and resultant ‘modern’ economy did not come first, and banks then moved to accommodate them as an effect. The banks are the Cause. Growth in ‘sophistication’ and complexity, growing ‘activity’ is in their best interests. Not society’s.
Why not? Here is where we come directly to the issue of ‘Quality’ and “Sustainability’.
Because banks are permitted to profit from both usury, and speculation, then anything that might foster ‘Quality’ and/or ‘Sustainability’ are by definition, absolute anathema to the goal of maximising banking industry profits!
Consider your comment about the W123 Mercedes never reaching these shores without the help of banks. In saying this, it appears you’re totally missing my points about Quality and Sustainability vs GDP growth, and where banking fits into the picture. Remember: I’m not against banking per se – that is, the need for a financial intermediary. What I am against is the specific form it has (again) been allowed to take, despite banning from such forms in previous centuries.
A bank – as a profitmaking intermediary – could care less if it’s a W123 Merc or a shitbox throw-away car that they provide interest-bearing investment capital for. In fact, they actually profit MORE, the more ideas for low-quality consumer goods are put forward. Because then, not only do they make a a profit from providing ‘money’ for production of that particular item – they also profit again, ever more quickly, from funding the replacement item that is inevitably required so much sooner, because that first product was crap ‘Quality’. Remember, whilst ever our allowance of usury and speculation by banks naturally motivates their goal of fostering maximum ‘activity’, then banks will continue to foster ‘activity’ at the expense of Quality and/or Sustainability. Eventually we get far enough down the road that some of us can see the real impacts on humanity. To wit, a lazy, wasteful, greedy, selfish, materialistic, throwaway consumer society that does not value patience, work, saving, quality, longevity, or sustainability. “Yes, I’ll have the latest plastic shitbox that’ll be ‘old’ after 120,000km right NOW … and one for each of the family too… Oh yes, and a new plasma… and a Wii… stick it all on credit thanks”. Who profits from making this possible? From start to finish, the banking industry. From go to woa, from the factory in China to the credit card in the Land of Oz, it is the banks who made all this activity possible, because they profit most from the growth in ‘activity’.
TITINT, I feel you have not really grasped the implications of my comments about GDP, societal ‘good’, and suggestion/s re alternate models.
There is no logical reason whatsoever why ‘banking’ in the broad, general form I’ve described (ie, fiat money, no usury, no speculation (by banks), banking/credit-supply as a free Community Service) cannot fuel a large, global, ‘modern’ economy.
The fundamental difference would be, however, that Quality and Sustainability would become the benchmarks, with resultant societal impacts on our attitudes towards what constitutes Value and Real Worth. Mere ‘activity’ would no longer be the benchmark, nor the motivational driver. If we pause to seriously consider the Big Picture, and be honest with ourselves, IMHO it is perfectly clear that allowing a banking (intermediary) industry to exist that profits by usury and speculation, will only ever drive what we can actually see before us – an economic and social decline into ever greater ‘activity’ (complexity), but at the same time, ever lower standards of Quality and Sustainability, with the morality of human society also rendered so much the poorer in direct consequence.