Note: the first part of this post will mainly be of interest just to Australian readers, but I conclude with a numerical explanation of “Why Debt-Deflation Causes Depressions” that will be of interest to readers everywhere.
Last week I took part in a debate entitled “The Great Residential Housing Debate – the next Bubble or a legitimate Boom?” at the annual conference for Perennial Investment Partners; I put the Bubble case and Chris Joye of Rismark International presented the Boom case (here is my paper and my presentation). As is well-known, Australia is one of the few countries in the OECD not to experience two quarters or more of falling GDP as a result of the GFC, and probably the only country that has not experienced a fall in its property market.
The conference was held twice, firstly in Melbourne on Wednesday February 24th, and then in Sydney on Friday 26th. There were roughly 400 people in the audience on both occasions, all of whom were customers of Perennial–with the majority (roughly 75%) being financial planners. The conference employed an electronic voting mechanism that let participants answer general questions, as well as rate the speakers. In our debate, it was used to work out where people stood on the “Bubble vs Boom” spectrum both before and after the debate. A “1″ indicated a complete Bear who expected property to crash and advised getting out now, while a “10″ was a complete Bull who advised “Buy, Buy, Buy”.
Prior to our debate in Melbourne, the average score was 4.9. This surprised me, because I expected the audience to be generally pro-property; however a score of below 5.5 indicated that overall the audience was bearish on property (since the average of the ten numbers from 1 to 10 is 5.5; also see ** below).
After our debate, the score was 5.2–a small move in favour of the bullish position, but still slightly in the bearish camp. Chris commented that this was “about even” and “too close to call” as he left the stage, which I thought was a fair enough summary of the outcome.
So I was stunned when Crikey asked me to respond to the report Chris had given them of the Melbourne debate (“Reflections on Cage Match Mk 1“), which included the statements that:
So I think I pretty comprehensively monstered Steve Keen at our debate in Melbourne yesterday. That was certainly the feedback from those who attended (there were 500)…
While I felt I was able to intellectually tear Steve apart limb-by-limb, I will say this: he is a lovely guy. Very diplomatic and humble in defeat…; and
Unfortunately, the electronic scoring in yesterday’s debate was a bit convoluted: it measured the shift in the audience sentiment from bearish (Steve) to bullish (Chris) before and after the event. On that basis, I won. But I think a simpler Chris versus Steve voting system would have made the difference much more striking…
Huh? The rest of the post was of a similar vein–though there were occasional caveats such as “As I noted in my presentation, Steve has made some valid criticisms of conventional economics, and its neglect of debt capital market imperfections. And he deserves some kudos for anticipating a credit crisis” (gee, thanks!), even this was immediately followed by “But whatever strengths he possesses are overwhelmed by his propensity to make silly statements.”
I had no intention of commenting on the debate prior to seeing this hit a national news site, but of course this couldn’t be ignored–though at the same time it didn’t deserve to be taken seriously. So I took a facetious approach–opening my reply with “I don’t know what Chris consumed after our talk at Perennial’s conference yesterday, but if he has any spare I’d like to try it at a party tomorrow night”, and concluding with the advice to Chris that, “Next time, after a conference, don’t consume anything, just take a cold shower” (I also pointed out the statistical fact Chris apparently missed, that the middle point in scores from 1 to 10 is not 5, but 5.5).
Chris took this rejoinder very well–despite our fundamental differences over this issue, we get on well personally, and unlike some participants in this debate, he does have a sense of humour.
And so we proceeded to Sydney. There the audience was slightly less bearish than in Melbourne: the average score prior to the debate was 5.3, just slightly below the neutral level. But after the debate, there was a significant shift towards the Bear case. The post debate score was 4.6.
Chris had made the classic mistake of declaring victory at half-time, only to get a cold shower with the full-time result (see below however under **).
Why Debt-Deflation Causes Depressions
“Declaring victory at half-time” is a syndrome which afflicts the entire debate over our current economic situation: optimists are of the opinion that the crisis is all over now, while pessimists think it’s only just begun. On this front, as always, I regard history as the best indicator of who may be right. On this front, I can’t commend highly enough the site New from 1930, which from January 1 2009 began publishing summaries of the Wall Street Journal from January 1 1930. The last few entries include these pearls of wisdom from February 1931:
An Old-Timer believes the market rally “will do more to restore prosperity than anything else.” Total security values have increased over $20B since start of year; barring another dive in the market, this assures a recovery since the 10M-15M US owners of stock feel richer. Bulls say the ease with which considerable profit-taking has been absorbed recently is “the surest indication of a strong healthy market.” Market has rallied very substantially; “if it runs true to form, it will have one of those ‘healthy reactions’ that will, according to the bulls, strengthen its ‘technical position.’” “The buying power of the people and the corporations still is large … In other words, the country never was in a better position to stage a comeback after a depression … (Feb. 25th)
One banker cites plenty of evidence that the backlog of consuming power is largest its been in years: corp. inventories are down 20% from a year ago, and even more from 2 years ago; corps. are holding more cash; production of many products is below requirements; products have been wearing out for 18 months of deferred buying; security values up $20B since Jan. 1; easy credit; record-breaking savings deposits. Last year there were few rallies on which to sell; this year there have been few dips on which to buy. Public interest has grown this year, but is still small compared to 1928 and 1929; “a market with a growing public interest is a dangerous market to sell short.” (Feb. 26th)
Yeah, right: in both 1930 and 1931, the belief was widespread–at least in the financial community–that the Depression was over, and recovery was just around the corner. As Australia’s Alan Kohler noted when he first discovered this blog, at least early on during the Great Depression, people didn’t realise that they were in it. They too, were declaring victory at what turned out to be not even half-time.
Ultimately, the debate over whether we’re in a complete recovery or merely a temporary recess from the GFC will only be resolved by time. But well-informed theory can also give a guide as to what we can expect, and here I regard Hyman Minsky’s Financial Instability Hypothesis and Irving Fisher’s Debt Deflation Theory of Great Depressions as the outstanding guides. However they are complex theories, especially when most economists have been mis-educated by neoclassical economics into ignoring money, debt, and disequilibrium dynamics. So the following numerical example might make it easier to understand their arguments:
- Imagine a country with a nominal GDP of $1,000 billion, which is growing at 10% per annum (real output is growing at 4% p.a. and inflation is 6% p.a.);
- It also has an aggregate private debt level of $1,250 billion which is growing at 20% p.a., so that private debt increases by $250 billion that year;
- Ignoring for the moment the contribution from government deficit spending, total spending in that economy for that year–on all markets, both commodities and assets–is therefore $1,250 billion. 80% of this is financed by incomes (GDP) and 20% is financed by increased debt;
- One year later, the GDP has grown by 10% to $1,100 billion;
- Now imagine that debt stabilises at $1,500 billion, so that the change in debt that year is zero;
- Then total spending in the economy is $1,100 billion, consisting of $1.1 trillion of income-financed spending and no debt-financed spending;
- This is $150 billion less than the previous year;
- Stabilisation of debt levels thus causes a 12% fall in nominal aggregate demand.
What about if debt doesn’t actually stabilise, but instead grows at the same rate as GDP? Then we get the following situation:
- In the first year, total demand is $1,250 billion, consisting of $1,000 billion in income and $250 billion in increased debt;
- In the second year, total demand is also $1,250 billion, consisting of $1,100 billion in income and $150 billion in increased debt;
- Nominal aggregate demand is therefore constant;
- But after inflation, real aggregate demand will have contracted by 6%.
This is the real danger posed by debt: once debt becomes a significant fraction of GDP, and its growth rate substantially exceeds that of GDP, the economy will suffer a recession even if the debt to GDP ratio merely stabilises.
A debt-dependent economy has no choice but to record rising levels of debt to GDP every year to avoid a recession. Unfortunately, this makes a debt-servicing crisis inevitable at some point, especially when a large fraction of the increase in debt is financing Ponzi-speculation on asset prices, since this adds to debt without increasing society’s capacity to finance that debt.
That is why falling debt levels caused the Great Depression, as Irving Fisher argued back in 1933, and the phenomenon is obvious in the empirical data. The next few charts illustrate this argument.
Private debt and GDP levels in the USA from 1920 to 1940:

The change in private debt, added to GDP to show aggregate demand as the sum of GDP plus the change in debt:

Now I calculate the proportion of aggregate demand that is debt-financed, by dividing the change in debt by the sum of GDP plus the change in debt: the formula for is:
![]()
The correlation of the fraction of demand that is debt financed (lagged one year since the data is end-of-year annual) with unemployment is minus 0.77. Roughly speaking, this tells us that when the debt-financed fraction of demand rises, unemployment falls, and the correlation of these two series accounts for 77% of the change in unemployment between 1920 and 1940:

Now let’s repeat the same exercise with the data from 1990 till 2010
Private debt and GDP levels in the USA from 1990 to 2010:

The change in private debt, added to GDP to show aggregate demand as the sum of GDP plus the change in debt:

The correlation of the fraction of demand that is debt financed (unlagged since we now have quarterly data on debt) with unemployment (the correlation coefficient is now minus 0.84):

This is why debt-deflation matters, and it’s also why we are barely at the half-time mark in the GFC. Though government spending has countered the fall in debt-financed spending to some degree, that fall has only hit 40% of the level that applied during the Great Depression, even though debt levels are substantially higher (relative to GDP) than they were back then.
The numerical example given above is, by the way, not too far removed from the empirical data for both Australia and the USA prior to the GFC. In the year before the crisis, Australia’s GDP was roughly A$1.1 trillion, and the increase in debt that year was A$260 billion, which was a 17% increase on the previous year; for the USA the comparable figures were roughly US$14 trillion, a US$4.5 trillion increase in debt, and a peak rate of growth of debt of about 10% p.a.
The example also illustrates why the rate of inflation matters, and why a low rate prior to a debt crisis is a serious danger. If inflation is high when the crisis hits (say 20% p.a.) then most of the decline can be taken by a fall in the rate of consumer price inflation itself. But if the commodity inflation rate is low, then the hit will be taken by asset prices and actual output as well as by a fall in the inflation rate.
The process can be countermanded to some degree by the government running a deficit, which counteracts the fall in aggregate demand caused by private deleveraging. But the government deficit would need to be far higher than current levels to return us to prosperity if nothing is also done about the astronomical level of private debt.
With the deficits that are being contemplated today, I expect the outcome to be that the rest of the OECD will “turn Japanese” and enter a long-running, low level Depression. Actions that limit those deficits–or even worse, force countries in crisis like Greece to impose austerity measures to reduce deficits back to zero–will turn this from a drawn-out Depression into a sudden and deep one.
Of course, at the same time that economic policy makers–misled by neoclassical economics–are imposing austerity programs on national governments, they are trying to restart the private debt binge mechanism that gave us the crisis in the first place. I’ll write more on this in a future Debtwatch, but in the meantime I recommend the post on this point on Vox by Peter Boone and Simon Johnson, “The doomsday cycle“.
Why has Australia done so well?
I’ve noted previously that government policy during 2009 boosted household disposable income dramatically, and Gerard Minack of Morgan Stanley recently pointed out just how much: “household disposable income increased by 10.1% over the year to the September quarter, while labour income – the biggest component of household income and traditionally the largest swing factor – increased by just 0.4%.” (Morgan Stanley Australia Strategy and Economics, February 24, 2010: The Odd Expansion). The primary factors driving household disposable incomes higher were the government’s stimulus package (which boosted incomes by about 4%) and the RBA’s rate cuts (which added another 5% to disposable incomes).
As Gerard commented when he first publicised this outcome (Morgan Stanley, Downunder Daily October 9, 2009: Antipodean Lessons), “If that’s recession, bring it on!”: it’s unheard of for household incomes to rise during a recession, and that’s a major reason why Australia avoided a downturn last year.
But it’s not the only reason: the other one, as my numerical example above illustrates, is what happened to debt levels. In our debt-dependent economies today, a recession almost always means a fall in debt levels relative to GDP (while a Depression results from absolutely falling debt). We began that process early in 2008, only to dramatically reverse direction in 2009 so that, once again, debt was growing faster than GDP.
The key cause of this was that other government policy, the First Home Vendors Boost, which enticed Australians back into mortgage debt in droves (both First Home Buyers who actually received the Boost, and the Vendors who sold to them who took levered the extra $15-40K The Boost added to the sale price into another $100-200K for their next house purchase). This policy gave us the fastest turnaround in debt levels in our post-WWII economic history.
Note that the period prior to 1965 had as many periods of the debt to GDP ratio falling as rising–which is the sign of a cyclical but non-Ponzi economy. Then from 1965 on, the trend was for debt ratios to rise faster than GDP except during the recessions of 1973-76 and 1990-94. The period of the Howard Government involved the longest sustained period of rising private debt ever–though notably this trend for rising debt began while Keating was still PM.
Then the GFC hit virtually as Rudd came to office, and the rate of growth of private debt plunged–a similar coincidence to the one that had done the Whitlam government in decades earlier (note that the debt bubble whose bursting brought Whitlam undone had also commenced under the preceding Liberal government of Billy McMahon).
Rudd deserves no blame for the bursting of the debt bubble–as I warned since December 2005, this was inevitable and when it happened, a serious global recession would begin (because the phenomenon was global and not merely limited to Australia). But his government does deserve whatever is deserved–credit or blame–for the rapid turnaround in debt. This wouldn’t have happened without the First Home Vendors Boost, since as is illustrated below, the only source of this increase in private debt has been rising mortgage debt.
Had this trick been pulled back in the 1990s, then Rudd would have received credit for it in the long run, since it would have set off a prolonged boom as debt to GDP ratios rose for many years and gave us a strong if illusory recovery from the preceding recession.
But this is 2010: household debt has risen from under 30% to almost 100% of GDP (the RBA has recently changed its statistics on this front–two months ago the figures in D02 yielded a ratio slightly above 100%), and I simply don’t believe there’s capacity for it to continue rising. So I expect that the trend will rapidly reverse itself back into a falling private debt to GDP ratio, and the recovery this rising debt has helped engineer will evaporate.
That will leave government spending as the one prop to keep the Australian economy afloat, and it is a prop that shouldn’t be underestimated, as the next chart illustrates: though the private debt to GDP ratio turned around from falling at 5% p.a. to rising at 2% p.a. courtesy of government policy, the increase in government debt added another 3% to the mix.
The sum of changing private and government debt thus substantially boosted spending in the Australian economy in 2009–enough to stop the GFC in its tracks here. But in 2010, it is highly unlikely that the private sector will continue re-leveraging. That will leave increased government debt-financed spending as the only boost.
If the government’s contribution remains at about the level of 2009–roughly a 3% boost–and the private sector continues the deleveraging it was doing before government policy kicked in–at a rate of close to 6% p.a.–then the net outcome will still be a falling debt to GDP ratio. While that is necessary in the long term to get us out of the Ponzi cycle we have been trapped in for the last 4 decades, it will still mean pain: private sector deleveraging will outweigh government sector pump-priming.
The reason is simple: so much debt has been taken on already by the Australian private sector that its capacity to take on any more is virtually exhausted. Even as households slapped on more mortgage debt under the influence of the FHVB, other personal debt was falling (until just recently) and the business sector has been rapidly deleveraging–and even so, business debt today still exceeds the peak it reached in 1990.
So the Australian gambit out of the GFC–get back into debt as fast as possible–may soon run its course. We should then find ourselves in the same situation as in the rest of the OECD–deleveraging. The fact that we are taking the “hair of the dog” approach to a debt-hangover (get drunk again on debt the next morning) is readily apparent in this comparison of Australian and US private debt levels: Australia actually began to delever before the USA did, but just as they hit deleveraging with a vengeance, our aggregate private debt started to grow once more.
Just like the “hair of the dog” approach to getting over a hangover, it works once or twice, but not forever: the ultimate destination is DA: “Debtors Anonymous”. Australia has merely delayed its entry into the club.
**
Further reflections on the Perennial debate
Chris in part attributed doing poorly in Sydney to a couple of personal mishaps that morning prior to the debate–and he did say that he expected not to speak as well as in Melbourne before the debate in Sydney took place. That would certainly have been a factor.
One other factor may be that I developed the numerical example used in this DebtWatch Report after the Melbourne conference. That gave the Sydney audience a clearer idea of why debt-deflation matters–and why the servicing cost of debt, which Chris insists is not high, is not the main problem with a debt-driven economy.
Of course, I dispute the argument that debt servicing costs are not particularly high today. As the next chart shows, even though the RBA’s rate cuts have reduced the cost substantially from its peak, interest payments on mortgages in Australia today consume 7.5% of household disposable income. This is 1.65 times the average from 1976 till now.

Yet this “average” itself is almost as high as the debt servicing costs in 1990, when mortgage rates were an astronomical 17%–2.5 times as high as today’s rates. The primary driver behind this extreme rise in debt servicing costs is the factor Chris loves to ignore, the ratio of mortgage debt to income. This is more than five times larger today than it was in 1990 (130% of household disposable income versus 25% in 1990).
In Sydney, the audience was advised (after our debate) to make a large change to its previous number if they were persuaded one way or the other; this may have made the final swing larger in Sydney than Melbourne.
Finally, Chris later argued later that financial planners are inherently bearish on residential property, since they want to advise people to get into stocks instead. That is an argument that I would prefer to take with a grain of salt. Whether that is true or not as a general proposition, it appears that the people “Mum and Dad investors” might rely upon for advice about where to put their speculative dollars are on average telling them not to put them into residential property, which is the opposite advice to that one sees regularly in the Australian media today (sourced from commentators who clearly have no pecuniary interest in whether house prices rise or fall…).






March 1st, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Perhaps Chris Joye’s tone is more anxious as the prospect of becoming the David Lereah of Australia seems statistically possible: http://www.amazon.com/Real-Estate-Boom-Will-Bust/dp/0385514352
March 1st, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Raftshol’s Iron Law of Housing Progression
I think housing crashes have more to do with satiation of buying demand than with either private debt or affordability. So long as the buying public believes that housing is a good investment that is going to pay off, they will keep borrowing. Govt boosts keep moving the market equilibrium to higher and higher points whence the market will crash to lower lows.
Common sense should tell anyone that with 7 sellers for every 3 buyers that high house prices will not last long, even if a govt boost can keep up demand by making it 8 sellers to every 2 buyers.
Perhaps the overall scheme is to open immigration flood gates as that alone can keep the market alive, assume wages don’t crash while new house buyers are let in.
March 1st, 2010 at 12:48 pm
Nice point Noah! I particularly liked this blurb for that book, both for its prescience (NOT!) and the author’s status (then and now…)
“An important book, whether you agree with the author (as I do) that housing will remain an excellent investment or are convinced that home prices are poised for a plunge, David Lereah lays out a compelling vision of housing as a continuing positive investment—and how you can profit from real estate if you already own the home you live in, are looking to move from rental housing to an owner-occupied home, or want to use real estate as an investment.” —DAVID BERSON, CHIEF ECONOMIST, FANNIE MAE”
March 1st, 2010 at 12:58 pm
The upturn in US house prices would be almost all due to government intervention. The obvious deficit which is the government effectively paying mortgages and less obviously by financing and insuring mortgages which the private sector no longer is willing to take the risk. Australia is just is managing to get by with less extreme government manipulation.
March 1st, 2010 at 1:33 pm
Music to go bust by. In the immortal words of Heaven 17′s song “Temptation” from the 1980s, the following lyrics (with 2 minor mods by me) should be listened to with the song on maximum volume. The song could have been written with Australia’s masochistic love of mortgage slavery in mind:
All I desire
Temptation
Keep climbing higher and higher
Temptation
Adorable creatures
Temptation
With unacceptable features
Temptation
Trouble is coming
Temptation
It’s just the high cost of living
Temptation
You can take it or leave it
Temptation
But you’d better believe it
You’ve got to make me an offer
That cannot be ignored
So let’s buy a home now
Everything I have is yours
March 1st, 2010 at 1:36 pm
Thanks retnhub,
As an ageing Baby Boomer, I’ll have to take your word on the lyrics. But it’s certainly time this circus had a show-stopping tune of its own.
March 1st, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Hi Steve,
I agree. In June 2005 an article came out in “The Economist” talking about Australia’s housing being overvalued by 50% – fac.comtech.depaul.edu/jwoo1/courses/globa-house.htm ). This was an extremely prescient article which foretold the US housing bust. I had a lot of $ in Australia investment property at the time. It took me 2 years to sell it all and pay off my own mortgage. I left the spare cash on the sidelines at +5% since (the all ords has returned about -30% over this period). BTW, Life is much happier now without having to endlessly fret about interest rates and debt servicing. I think you are completely correct about a decade of “turning Japanese” ahead of us. I am old enough to remember Australia’s love affair with the China story in the late 80s to remember how badly that movie ended for many investors.
Perhaps many younger investors in property (maybe even Chinese foreign investors) have never experienced a real recession and property slump like the early 90s. After all, that nice real estate agent told me house prices only ever go up, so I better get in now or I’ll miss out!
March 1st, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Hi Steve,
Longtime follower of Debtwatch – thanks so much for dedicating your time to provide this valuable resource.
I think there may be a typo in your example:
“Then total spending in the economy is $1,100 billion, consisting of $1.1 billion of income-financed spending and no debt-financed spending”
But I’m sure you did this intentionally just to check if anyone was paying attention to the complicated tricky mathsy stuff.
Or maybe I’m starting to finally starting to pay attention…
March 1st, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Hi Steve,
Longtime follower of Debtwatch – thanks so much for dedicating your time to provide this valuable resource.
I think there may be a typo in your example:
“Then total spending in the economy is $1,100 billion, consisting of $1.1 billion of income-financed spending and no debt-financed spending”
But I’m sure you did this intentionally just to check if anyone was paying attention to the complicated tricky mathsy stuff.
Or maybe I’m finally starting to pay attention…
March 1st, 2010 at 3:03 pm
Thanks Arthur,
I think I might already have caught that one–in the version online I have 1.1 trillion, not billion. Can you see if that’s what you see?
Cheers, Steve
March 1st, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Steve,
I have been reading all your stuff on housing for quite some time now, but my favourite chart is the interest repayment burden, which you have not republished lately. Whilst I agree with all your arguments on this blog and your other blog (KeenWalk), the interest repayment burden is still not close to where it was last time property prices were adversely effected. Whilst I know you blame the “first home buyers boost” and other stimulus for losing your bet, the real explanation could be the interest repayment burden!
Do you agree?
March 1st, 2010 at 3:32 pm
Hi Steve,
First post after reading the blog for some time.
Should the “Change in debt and politics” graph have Keating instead of Hewson in green?
On to a more general matter – I am convinced from your blog that Aus house prices are unsustainable, but my lingering doubt concerns timing. As in the sharemarket, it seems that irrationality can remain longer than one may remain solvent. What do you think the chances are of the bubble extending another 5-10 years? It has been going at least a couple of decades so far. Can you speculate on what specific events may trigger the downturn? There seems to be an overly optimistic view in the media about China’s growth continuing at hard-to-believe rates indefinitely, thereby fueling the Aus economy for many years to come. Could a likely scenario be: 1) reality finally sets in that de-lev in US means bad times here for a while, 2) Chinese growth suffers + found to be not quite as rosy as pictured, 3) Demand for Aus resources contracts, and economy found to be too reliant on Chinese demand and temporary gov’t stimulus.
Overly simplistic I realise, but am interested in suggestions?
March 1st, 2010 at 3:57 pm
Hi tetranomad,
I have Hewson in Green since he lost then and clearly should have won–there was no change in politics when there should have been on the data.
I think the trigger will simply be the one I note in the numerical example: once debt stops growing, then (unless the increase in government debt not only counters deleveraging but adds to demand as well) there will be a slowdown across all markets. The prospect that housing could continue to bubble while other markets (including labour) falter is I believe fairly remote.
There are then the exogenous triggers you mention, but I still think this endogenous one will bite first sometime this year.
March 1st, 2010 at 3:59 pm
The decline in the interest repayment burden is certainly a major factor Jim,
But the fact that the market (and the economy in general) kept rising was dependent on rising debt. I doubt that we would have seen house prices rise if mortgage debt had remained constant or fallen as a % of GDP. But certainly the fact that the burden of carrying the mortgage dropped so much helped keep a flood of properties off the market.
March 1st, 2010 at 4:14 pm
Right you are Steve – looks like I still have to work on the mathsy stuff…
March 1st, 2010 at 4:17 pm
But serious note on the scoring and putative victory by Joye. The polling results fall so far short of quality market research and there is zero sampling, so there is no way possible that anyone could claim that the assembled crowds (Melb and Syd) were in anyway representative and therefore the arguments persuaded alone. It was just entertainment.
The name of the convener of the conference and the subject itself draws a self-selective group and they tend to want their attitudes endorsed. Given the inherent group bias and environment, it is a reasonable inference to say on the basis of the results that the groups were uncertain. In other words, Joye should have had a huge victory.
March 1st, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Kris Sayce at Money Morning Australia (and Daily Reckoning) has commented on these talks, and dissects some of Joye’s claims with his typical gusto:
http://www.moneymorning.com.au/20100225/joye-mortgage-repayments-10-household-disposable-income.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MoneyMorningAustralia+%28Money+Morning+Australia%29
March 1st, 2010 at 10:07 pm
Re new shocks, we may be about to see the unwinding of the big green science bubble. Prof Phil Jones from UEA CRU is about to give evidence at the UK Parliament Select Committee on Science and Technology, concerning his reasons for deleting data requested under FOI and other interesting matters.
This may have slow-motion implications for Australia’s supposed new clean green economy.
The case for decarbonisation mostly rested on the computer models…the analytical calculations predicted a global temperature rise of 1.2 deg C approx, it was the numerical modelling that produced the big scary numbers of 2 – 6 deg C.
Bad models fed with bad data could predict – almost anything. Then the output of bad science models was fed to less-than-perfect economic models to generate Garnaut’s ETS. As Garth Paltridge puts it, the blind leading the blind.
March 1st, 2010 at 10:46 pm
Hi Steve,
I was hoping I could get your opinion on the First Home Savers Account (FHSA)?
- How effective is it for somebody like me wanting to save for a first home?
- Do you think being locked for 4 years minimum is not a good option?
- is it a good choice overall or not? It seems the up take has been quite poor.
any other comments and thoughts are most welcomed.
Geko123.
March 1st, 2010 at 11:04 pm
I would like to raise a question that I have not seen anyone bring up.
If it is true that Australian house prices in places like Sydney and Melbourne are being driven by population growth due to immigration, etc., and a shortage of housing, because “most Australians live in the capital cities” as some economists have said, then I would like to know why is it the case that prices in even rural areas seem to have doubled in the past ten years? What the do they have to do with population growth due to immigration? A town like Junee doesn’t look like it has anything going on there in terms of population growth and there are certainly no immigrants there. Furthermore, price growth in many rural places seems to have outperformed Sydney and these places don’t look like mining towns to me.
Is everyone saying that the same tight supply/demand conditions exist in every city and town in Australia as some suggest the price growth implies? How could that be possibly true that the same housing supply constraints exist in all these places when we are talking about different local governments, different local planning rules, different state governments, different geographic conditions, different labour markets, etc in each place?
I have lived in Shanghai for the past eight years and I have seen firsthand prices increase fivefold during that time. It has nothing to do with supply/demand (ie housing stock versus population), rather, it is all about money supply. There are empty apartments and offices all around me and nominal rents have been falling since the day I got here. If you look at inflation adjusted rents, the falls in rent are massive. Just last year, rents in my compound fell by 25% at the same time as the apartment prices were going up. The gross rental yield on my place is now 2.1% pa. An economist by the name of Andy Xie, formerly chief economist for Asia for Morgan Stanley, is always writing about the state of affairs here if you are interested in what’s going on in China. Very smart guy and logical guy but nobody’s listening.
I am skeptical of the supply/demand story in Australia. If the housing market were so tight, you would think rents should be getting bid up fast and it would be hard to find rental accommodation but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
March 1st, 2010 at 11:28 pm
I have a general question that I am surprised no one is discussing. All the current debate about property prices will appear foolish in a couple of years time, after the bubble deflation is well and truly underway. What I’m interested in is how does one capitalise on it? I am a fairly experienced investor, but I can’t for the life of me figure out how to short property other than to sell one’s own property and buy again in the future (like what Steve has done). Not a particularly useful option if you don’t have or want to sell your own house. Surely there must be a well correlated proxy for residential property prices that is liquid and shortable or something inversely correlated that a long position can be taken on? If big deflation is really on the way, maybe the best option is simply to cash up and take the pickings later (at least it’s safe, I suppose)? I have eliminated banks as an option as although they _should_ suffer in a property downturn, political interference would make them far too unpredictable.
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:53 am
@Tony 21
“If it is true that Australian house prices in places like Sydney and Melbourne are being driven by population growth due to immigration, etc., and a shortage of housing, because “most Australians live in the capital cities” as some economists have said, then I would like to know why is it the case that prices in even rural areas seem to have doubled in the past ten years?”
This is due to the assumption that housing values can always rise faster than other items due to price inflation.
“What the do they have to do with population growth due to immigration?”
Nothing at all since immigrants live in households that have a greater number of people per household.
“Is everyone saying that the same tight supply/demand conditions exist in every city and town in Australia as some suggest the price growth implies?”
This only applies to the lower end of the propriety and rental market. I would say the lower end of the market is for a house under $350,000 and rent at $350 per week. I am very aware that 40km down the road in northern Sydney, average prices are double this.
“If you look at inflation adjusted rents, the falls in rent are massive. Just last year, rents in my compound fell by 25% at the same time as the apartment prices were going up.”
The reverse is happening in Australia.
“The gross rental yield on my place is now 2.1% pa.”
My old rental and new rental now have a rental yield averaging 5% pa.
“I am skeptical of the supply/demand story in Australia. If the housing market were so tight, you would think rents should be getting bid up fast and it would be hard to find rental accommodation but that doesn’t seem to be the case.”
Rents are getting bid up at the lower end of the market. The medium end of the market is easy to enter if you can afford it. So many Australian are still living in the fantasy of the modern consumer world. They are totally blind to debt deflation. I often ask if people know what debt deflation means. They look at you like you have said something that has no meaning.
I have discovered that my cousin had 3 homes. I rang my aunt up and she said that he has no money since he has these mortgages. Telling my friends and family about economics and our current crisis is like going back to ABC. After 19 year of almost continuous economic growth in Australia, trying to educate my 15 year old son about a recession is hard. Depression doesn’t comprehend. This is normal for Australian teenagers.
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:28 am
A few remarks Steve:
“this tells us that when the debt-financed fraction of demand rises, unemployment falls”.
Yes maybe this is how it starts but my theory is there is a positive feedback loop with a amplification A bigger than 1. At any point the loop can also be described as unemployment falls -> debt-financed demand rises (as debt creating jobs appear more and more). A large-scale model takes boundaries into account; when pretty much all previous unemployed are selling houses or mortgages, unemployment stops falling. A flips to -(bigger than 1).
“the OECD will “turn Japanese” ”
This would be possible in a small-scale model kind of view. Japan could do it because the rest of the world economy was still running on debt growth. And again it looks to me they didn’t limit their deficit growth but they hit a limit on deficit growth.
Maybe you could show us how unlimited government deficit spending and taking over private debt will result in prosperity, in the long run. IMHO a short deep depression would show perfectly how destructive a debt binge is. Now, how to remember this for more than a generation, we clearly can’t depent on policy makers and regulations.
Oh, and instead of bailing out the overleveraged borrower a short deep deflationairy depression would (for once) “bail out” (out of his crappy rental) the saver.
Policy makers are not misled by, they use the neo-classics as an excuse to strip assets. And of course they will make thing ready for the next debt binge and then the next asset strip session. 1. 2. Profit. But that could just be me being paranoid and it’s just stupidity.
Just my 2ct. IANAE.
March 2nd, 2010 at 3:02 am
I couldn’t agree with your analysis any more except for one general comment.
I don’t think debt should be measured by GDP as it can be misleading.
3 types of debt should be measured against the following and placed in an index:
Business: Debt as a percentage of EBITA
Households: Debt as a percentage of disposable incomes
Government: Debt as a percentage of tax receipts
The index would be made up as the following:
Total Debt divided by (Total EBITA + Total Disposable Incomes + Total Tax Receipts)
March 2nd, 2010 at 3:10 am
To continue with post 22,
I might also suggest that the index then remove total corporate taxes from receipts so they are not double counted.
March 2nd, 2010 at 3:47 am
To further continue with post 22,
I might then smooth EBITA, disposable incomes, and tax receipts by either the growth or reduction in debt levels as they are strongly correlated – hence the cyclical nature of our economy – an increase in debt cycles through the economy, it ends up temporarily adding to all three measures leading to unsustainable confidence.
1. To smooth, I would come up with a long term average for the index.
2. I would subtract the percentage difference between nominal growth in credit in Year 2 (x%) from the growth in the three measures in Year 1 (x%). (ie. 3%-8% = -5%)
3. Divide the absolute percentage calculated in step 3 (5%) by the percentage growth in debt (8%). (5/8=62.5%)
4. Multiply the percentage calculated in step 3 by the total nominal debt growth in Year 2. (0.625*100 billion)
5. Subtract 4 from the 3 measures (EBITA, disposable incomes and tax receipts). Likewise add it to the three measures if debt is shrinking.
It’s a start. Needs to be tweaked.
March 2nd, 2010 at 7:39 am
I actually like one consequence of the FHSA geko123–which is that it actually reduces demand now while increasing buyers’ deposits.
However that was slaughtered by the FHVB that encouraged people into the market NOW (as in during 2009).
If you are saving for a house and you aren’t in a hurry, then it is certainly better than saving without any government assistance–whatever might happen to the property market in the meantime.
March 2nd, 2010 at 7:45 am
Agreed Tony–the causal factor is always money (and debt) growth.
Where I do give supply constraints credence is that this gives initial legitimacy to the Ponzi Scheme getting started. Just as Charles Ponzi needed a story (which he actually believed by the way) to get his own scheme going, some apparent real-world trigger is needed to encourage people into a Scheme in the first place; from then it has a momentum of its own. As you note, this momentum often overshoots the initial rationale, with rental yields falling well below interest rates, etc.
One reason that the Australian bubble has continued for so long could be that, for so long, most of the money has not been directed at building homes, but at gambling on the prices of existing ones. Ironically, the more pure Ponzi nature of the scheme here has allowed it to continue for longer.
March 2nd, 2010 at 8:20 am
Hi Steve,
I had a thought the other day.
Could it be that the australian government would ACTUALLY want the housing market to implode? And that they are proping it up further as much as possible to lead to its inevitebly destruction?
Lets have a think about it, allowing the market to drop without the FHVB would highly likely not cause as much of a drop than with the FHVB, now that debt is near or is reaching the ceiling.
Governments arent always as stupid as they seem. This may sound conspiracy in nature, and it might be. By anything is possible.
Here is 1 of many reasons as to why gov may want this:
Shrinking the wealth of many assets could mean that more people will need to work longer, enter the workforce again, take possible pay cuts, etc etc etc. This would mean less reliance on immigration. Our nation can become MORE productive.
All thoughts are most welcomed.
Geko.
March 2nd, 2010 at 8:48 am
My main reason for measuring debt against GDP Jonathan relates to its role in determining aggregate demand (since in our dynamic world this is the sum of GDP plus the change in debt). The comparison is of a stock (debt) to a flow (GDP) also adds something to the flow to flow comparisons you are suggesting, since the outcome (debt to GDP ratio) tells you how many years of income are needed to repay debt. This is valuable additional information to the simple flow to flow comparisons.
I can to illustrate this with an example. Imagine that your debt is equivalent to 1% of your yearly income and you are being charged 100% interest on it; how does that compare to owing 100% of your income and being charged 1% on it?
In flow:flow comparisons, the two situations are identical: in stock to flow, in the former you could pay your debt off with 3 days income, in the latter it would take a year’s income to do it.
Given that 100% is an outrageous rate of interest, many people would choose the second situation over the first at first glance; but the reality is that the second situation is far more financially fragile than the first.
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:19 am
Disagree completely with that geko123. And governments are often a lot stupider than they seem.
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:23 am
Steve beat me to it Geko….Governments are neither that smart nor think that far ahead!
Flawse/Outback Oracle
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:41 am
Governments preserve the status quo – destroying, even apparent, wealth would not be smart politically. In a 3 year electoral cycle, it’s a very unlikely strategy.
March 2nd, 2010 at 10:13 am
Steve,
“Disagree completely with that geko123. And governments are often a lot stupider than they seem.”
Agree completely with that Steve Keen.
March 2nd, 2010 at 10:39 am
Looks like Daily Reckoning has written a good article criticizing David Lereah i mean Chris Joye, good stuff http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2010/03/01/debtwatch-no-43-declaring-victory-at-half-time/
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:21 am
Hi Tony@20.. agree with what you’ve said about money supply as ‘debt’ flowing into property spectculations circa Shanghai.
Regarding Janee, I believe is the commonly known ‘ripple effect’ of the punters who sold at a profit in Canberra(nearest big city). They then take the money and buy into cheaper areas(comparatively speaking) like Janee… and therefore deflating their debt.
When I say Canberra, there may also be interstate migrants ie Sydney, Perth etc. This is a well known effect and HAVING lived in London in the mid 70s till to 2005, I can only relate this as a logical conclusion when you make a profit and want to deflate.. ie people in London buying into Home Counties such as Surrey, Harlow, Middlesex etc..
Mind you the poor bugger down the line who bought the house(at higher price) in the City are almost certainly being debt INFLATED.
Crazy world
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:45 am
29@geko123, 31@Steve Keen, 33@noah cross, 34@angophera… you guys can’t even imagine what government of the day is like..
I would say ‘One Govt born every minute’
See youtube for illustrations ‘Yes Prime Minister’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OInuz09jSNo
Watching it is like a busman holiday for me…
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Would anyone like to comment on the reports today about the fall in building approvals.
1. is the figure statistically significant ?
2. is it significant that it varied a lot from the expected figure ?
3. I cant tell if it supports or goes against the idea of a housing bubble collapse ?
On one hand it would seem to support the bubble by raising house prices because existing stock is reduced, allowing speculators to sell at higher prices
On the other hand it would seem to indicate that buyers are leaving the market, for whatever reason, tighter credit controls etc etc and the result of that should be downward pressure on housing prices.
Maybe the result is somewhere in the middle ?
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:47 pm
On the question of supply constraint, consider the following.
Most blocks of land at the edges of capital cities now cost the equivalent of 3 to 5 times the average yearly salary.
For example,on the outskirts of Sydney, it would be reasonably difficult to find a block of land for much less than $200,000. Most blocks in new land estates seem to be for sale between $250,000 and $350,000.
How far can house prices come down when the cost of land is so high?
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:22 pm
Gamma,
Supply of houses can be increased dramatically by foreclosures. You can buy a house near Detroit in the US for less than USD10k – nobody can convince me that a house can be built for that amount of money in a Western country.
This is the actual mechanism of the crash – the market gets flooded. The no longer limited supply does not support the market any more and as a consequence the demand collapses when there is a house price deflation (potential buyers not only have less money or can borrow less but also postpone their decisions – by waiting they actually save).
Bankruptcies can also drive down the cost of land as some speculators will have to sell.
In the absence of foreclosures the market may saturate and then slowly deflate as it happened in Japan. If our government keeps fiddling with the market this may be possible. Our bubble is still smaller than in Central Europe. In Poland there was no crash – the prices are slowly going down. They crashed in Baltic Republics.
I haven’t said that a crash will happen in 2010 in Australia but black swans are native to our country.
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:40 pm
Would a govt. willingly let their economy go down the tubes? With Obama, Geithner and Bernake (sounds like a law firm?), nothing is really showing that that’s false.
I’m watching an old ABC “Q&A” show online as I write this. And parts of the conversation re: cash govt. handouts are bordering on the surreal. “The whole point of cash handouts is to SPEND CASH”. Nothing about personal debt. Nothing about rising costs of health care.
MSM example: when Jack Welch was CEO of GE, he came down hard on the President of NBC News at the time. They were talking about GE stock going down. Welch’s line was you’re killing our company. The news response: no, we’re doing our job. Guess who got sacked first?
Now, unemployment benefits and COBRA (short-term health coverage for the unemployed) has stopped. All because of a neocon power play against Obama. The real unemployment rate nationally is about 20%.
FYI: the number of people here who are emigrating for work and health care is growing. A key player in the global meltdown: Sen. Chris Dodd. He’s leaving soon. And how much do you wanna bet he’ll become a lobbyist for the banking industry?
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Debt2death,
Re: #37
Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister were reportedly Margaret Thatcher’s favourite TV shows. IMO they would be classed as reality TV today.
March 2nd, 2010 at 3:46 pm
What has kept land prices high is demand and the councils passing on all their costs plus a bit more. In NSW the govt has restricted the ability to increase rates, so one solution has been to increase other charges. When the market collapses these charges will need to be removed or no one will develop land.
March 2nd, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Steve,
Kris Sayce here, in “The Daily Reckoning Australia” and a comprehensive defence of your views against the housing bubble spruiker in question, I publish here integrally with attribution, as i receive it for free:
How to Ignore a Bubble
It seems that property bandit Christopher Joye can’t help but make a fool of himself while feeding misinformation on property to his readers.
Yesterday, by all accounts, El Joye was debating Steve Keen at the Perennial Investment Partners conference in Melbourne.
As Joye loudly and proudly pointed out on his Business Spectator blog yesterday afternoon:
“Update: Christopher Joye won his debate with Steve Keen in an electronically scored result in front of an audience of 500 investors at the Park Hyatt in Melbourne.”
We think the words, ‘three year-old,’ and ‘child’ spring to mind – “Tell them I won, tell them I won…”
We’ve held back on Joye recently, but it’s time to put his claims under the spotlight again…
First, let’s take a look at a couple of the comments in the same Business Spectator blog:
“The total value of privately-owned residential property is around $3.5 trillion. The total value of outstanding mortgage debt is circa $1 trillion. Australia’s mortgage debt LVR is therefore slightly less than 30 per cent – ie, incredibly low. But Keen ignores this.”
El Joye wrote that in response to Steve Keen’s method of measuring household debt, which is to compare mortgage debt to GDP.
According to Joye, using mortgage debt to GDP is a:
“…Pretty meaningless benchmark. If you want to understand the viability of debt levels, you can use two key measures: debt-to-assets ratios and debt-to-income. This is exactly what any intelligent investor would do when appraising a company’s leverage.”
And then El Joye explains how the Australian mortgage debt LVR is only about 30%. In other words about 30 cents of debt for every $1 of ‘assets.’
Can you see a problem with El Joye’s method? For a start, where’s the $3.5 trillion come from? As investors with Storm Financial well know price and value are two different things.
And when the price readjusts to reflect the real value, that’s when the problems arise.
But apart from that, the other problem with his claims are this, when you’re valuing a company and assessing the ability of a company to honour its debts, the last thing an ‘intelligent investor’ would do is look at the ratio for the entire market.
What would be the point of that? Would any ‘intelligent investor’ really look at the balance sheet of Duet Group [ASX: DUE], which has 81% of its capital as debt, but then ignore that and invest anyway on the basis of the overall market only having a debt to capital ratio of 30%?
We could be wrong, but we’re not aware of any ‘intelligent investor’ that would do such a thing. But then again, we don’t mix in the same circles as Christopher Joye. He’s clearly got a monopoly on intelligence.
Then he makes his second point:
“We know that total household interest repayments as a share of disposable income are only about 10 per cent today. This is exactly the same as what they were 20 years ago.”
Do we really know that? I don’t think we do. Is El Joye really suggesting that mortgage repayments only comprise 10% of household disposable income? It would seem he is.
So, let’s go to the source, his pals at the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA). And if you look at the numbers, well, they’re not quite as Joye would have you believe.
Because according to the RBA, ‘Household Interest Payments to Disposable Income’ is indeed around 10% (actually 9.8%), and if you do cherry-pick 20 years ago then you will find the number was 8.7%. Which we’ll give some leeway and concede is “about” 10%.
But go a little further back and you’ll see that the date Joye cherry-picked – December 1989 – was the peak following an increase from 5.2% in 1977. And funnily enough, between 1989 and the late 1990s it fell again.
Anyway, look at the spreadsheet for yourself by clicking here. Whichever measure you look at, the debt burden has ballooned:
Debt to Assets – 7.2% in 1977, 19.9% in 2009
Housing Debt to Housing Assets – 8.8% in 1977, 30.2% in 2009
Debt to disposable income (total) – 33.2% in 1977, 152.7% in 2009
Debt to disposable income (housing) – 24% in 1977, 135.4% in 2009
But the important part of this is that as any ‘intelligent investor’ will tell you, making assumptions about the ability of an individual to repay their debts based on the repayment ability of a much larger sample of people is statistical chicanery at best, and outright deception at worst.
Let’s look at a simple example. If you have two households, one with 60% of their disposable income going towards interest repayments and the other with just 5% of their income going towards interest repayments, it’s hardly fair to say that no-one is in mortgage stress because the average is only 32.5%.
The reality is much worse than Joye’s rose-tinted vision would make you believe. And it doesn’t fit in at all with the numbers that show borrowing levels have reached an all-time high, in part thanks to the first home buyers bribe.
Take this example. According to the HIA-Commonwealth Bank first home buyer affordability report: “Monthly loan repayments on a typical first home mortgage in Melbourne surged from $2114 to $2600 in the year to December as federal grants were wound back and other costs jumped.”
Got that? That’s a 22.9% increase in monthly repayments. It’s an extra $5,832 of after-tax income each year that is diverted either from savings or other spending, and is instead spent on feeding the ponzi banks.
But not only that, it rather makes a mockery of Joye’s claim that interest repayments are only 10% of household disposable income. Do the maths. With an annual mortgage repayment of $31,200 (most of which is interest in the early years) Joye obviously believes everyone is on the same kind of wage as he is.
Maybe the flash-Harry’s at Rismark earn $312,000 of after tax income each year, but most normal people don’t.
And even if you take Joye’s previous claim that household disposable income is over $90,000, then you’re still looking at over 30% of disposable income going towards interest payments.
That’s backed up by Joye’s pals at the RBA who have Housing Loan Repayments at nearly 30% of household disposable income:
Housing Loan Repayments
So for El Joye to come out and claim “We know that total household interest repayments as a share of disposable income are only about 10 per cent today” is downright misleading.
Look, let’s forget all the stats and ratios and percentages. Let’s think about this logically. In 2009, 191,000 first home buyers hit the market, that’s more than a 50% increase on the previous year.
Common sense tells you that these 191,000 first home buyers aren’t spending just 10% of their disposable income on interest and mortgage repayments. Even if these buyers were uber yuppies with a disposable income of say $150,000 can you really imagine they are only spending $15,000 a year on interest?
That would mean a mortgage of just around $200,000. Maybe we’re wrong, but that would need a huge stretch of the imagination and suspension of reality to believe that’s the case.
Besides, even if you take Joye’s disposable income of around $90,000 then you’re looking at annual interest of $9,000 and a mortgage around $120,000. The numbers just don’t add up to reality.
Of course, Joye’s pal, Macquarie Group’s Rory “Output Gap” Robertson has chimed in as well:
“The ‘bubble crew’ seem to keep missing the main story… There’s extraordinary and ongoing rapid growth in the number of actual people in Australia with money wanting to own or rent houses in which to live – as opposed to living in tents and shipping containers – while the underlying long-term trend in homebuilding remains flat near 150,000 per annum.”
His arrogance never ceases to amaze. The actual people with money, are actual people being cajoled into taking out massive debt burdens. Cajoled by the likes of Robertson and Joye who believe Australia is immune from the realities of excessive debt indulgence.
But that’s not all, because it seems as though Joye has another visual impairment. Not only does he suffer from rose-tinted vision, but he’s had a bout of tunnel vision as well.
Last week Joye offered, “Exposing the sharemarket sham.”
The conclusion of his article? Wait for it. It’s a barnstormer. You’re not going to believe this…
The stockmarket is risky! He’s even managed to put a number on it. It’s “11.6 times riskier than ‘cash’”.
Well we could have told him that. In fact, 97.9% of ‘intelligent investors’ could have told him that. We hope Rismark clients didn’t have to pay too much to receive that pearl of wisdom.
But at least he’s not afraid to spruik for property investing at the same time, because as he informs readers:
“Australian equities also don’t stack up relative to fixed income investments, such as bank bills and government bonds. I am pretty sure one could also add AAA-rated Australian home loans and A1+ corporate debt to the fixed-income outperformers, although it is difficult to quantify their long-term returns due to a lack of suitable time-series data.”
It seems that investors should forget about the stock market. They should forget about investing in companies that make things or dig resources from the ground or provide services to people.
According to Joye you’d be much better off if you could invest in AAA-rated Australian home loans. Oh Lordy. What a fabulous idea. And as luck would have it, Rismark is just the firm to help you out. It has been trying to flog the idea of investors investing in Australian residential property securities for years.
And from what we can see, without much success.
But anyway, here’s a link to the proposal Joye put to the [hehem]… Fannie Mae Foundation seminar in October 2003:
“Consider a $250,000 house that is purchased with a downpayment of $25,000. The homebuyer uses standard mortgage finance of $125,000. The remaining $75,000 is raised using equity finance in the form of a specific SRR mortgage that works as follows. There is no interest due on the SRR mortgage until the house is sold. If the house is ultimately sold for more than it cost, the interest due corresponds to 60% of the appreciation. If the house sells for less than its purchase price, no interest whatever is due, and the amount of the initial loan is written down in proportion to the decline in the property price.”
You remember Fannie Mae, it was nationalised by the US government last year when a whole bunch of its mortgages went proverbial up.
The gist of the proposal – as we can figure it – seems to be that you buy a house but only take out part of the mortgage, the rest of the cost is paid for by an investor or group of investors through some sort of security. They call it ‘shared equity.’
That idea is probably ringing a few bells for you.
Well, it was less than five years later that Joye was proposing an Australian version of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to be called ‘AussieMac.’
In that document he states:
“We propose that the Commonwealth Government sponsor an enterprise – ‘AussieMac’ – that would leverage the Government’s AAA-rating to issue low-cost bonds and acquire high-quality mortgage-backed securities from Australian lenders just as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have done in the United States.”
And this comment, which was made before Fannie and Freddie went bust, but after the first signs of trouble had emerged:
“While Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have been extraordinary successful institutions for the best part of 50 years, they too have been occasionally embroiled in governance sagas that tend to at one time or another afflict all major corporations.”
And this:
“Indeed, there is a compelling case that liquid markets for securitised residential mortgages would never have emerged in the US, or for that matter anywhere else in the world, were it not for the establishment of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, which were the pioneers of the securitisation process and for many decades the only providers of off balance-sheet funding to US lenders.”
Joye seems to say, “All hail Freddie and Fannie!” Whereas we say, “To hell with Freddie and Fannie!”
We assume Joye is still intent on establishing an ‘AussieMac’ in Australia and therefore is set on importing to the Australian housing market the very same housing disease suffered by the American market.
But getting back to the ‘Shared Equity’ proposal, isn’t it a great investment idea? Wouldn’t it be good if investors could help buy into residential property? We’re surprised it hasn’t caught on. We’ll tell you why it hasn’t caught on, because it’s a terrible idea.
First off, it would do no more than gradually push prices even higher as more capital is allocated towards the residential housing market. Of course, it wouldn’t happen overnight, but the gradual trend would be to expand the housing bubble further.
But secondly, what investor or investment firm in its right mind would buy into an over-priced illiquid asset, an illiquid asset that they earn absolutely no income on until the property is sold, and then they only get paid interest if the house is sold for a profit?
What the academic in Joye forgets is one simple thing about housing. And that is, there’s potentially more money to be made from lending money to sucker property investors than there is to be made from owning the actual property.
Investment pros are too smart. They may spruik to push prices higher, but they’re not dumb enough to put their own clients funds at risk when they can make more money from lending cash as a loan.
But back to Joye’s “risky sharemarket” article. Because there was another hilarious line we just couldn’t ignore:
“Unfortunately, most of us underestimate risk (including many supposedly sophisticated investors), and focus obsessively on returns… And that touches on a sobering fact that one should never lose sight of: risk represents the probability of loss. This is precisely why any person who tells you that shares are ‘the best place to be’ is mad: the only way they can possibly arrive at this conclusion is by completely ignoring risk, or by assuming that you are trying to generate unusually high returns.”
And yet, it’s Joye and the band of property spruiking bandits who every day ignore even the faintest possibility of downside risk in the housing market.
Shares are risky, and they always have been. We’ll be the first to tell you that if you didn’t already know. So we’ll agree with Joye on that score. If you’re not prepared to accept the downside risk then you shouldn’t invest in shares.
But for Joye to point to the risks of share investing without even mentioning the potential risks of investing in a property market that is close to bursting point shows his complete lack of investment objectivity.
It’s up to Joye to put the record straight and finally admit that there is risk in taking out a massive loan that’s 6 or 7 times your annual income and buying a depreciating asset, which provides a negative income stream, at the height of a thirty year property boom.
That’s what we call risky. In fact, we’ll say it’s just as risky as investing in shares – and that shouldn’t be the case for property. Property should be low risk, but thanks to the spruikers it’s on par with the risk of shares.
Look, we’re not claiming that everyone’s perfect, certainly not your editor. But we do object to the propaganda that the spruikers infest the mainstream media with, that the Australian housing market is unique, like no other in the world.
And that Australia’s record high level of debt is of no concern, because, well, this is Australia and we’re different.
The reality is, to use an analogy, while the bus journey from prosperity to household economic debt Armageddon may have taken a different route to that taken in the US and UK, the ultimate destination is the same.
It’s just that Australia is taking the scenic route. And whether we like it or not, the property spruikers are the one’s driving the bus.
Cheers.
Kris Sayce
for The Daily Reckoning Australia
March 2nd, 2010 at 7:00 pm
[...] 7) Debitwatch (EN) [link] [...]
March 2nd, 2010 at 8:33 pm
Steve ,
Great post and more nice graphs , once again.
I wonder if you shouldn’t try to come up with your own version of Okun’s Law. There’s been quite a bit of chatter lately about how it seems ‘busted’ in recent years for predicting changes in U.S. unemployment rates. I’ve wondered if debt-fed output growth might have some confounding effect , and your graphs of debt contributions to AD vs. unemployment provide a pretty decent substitute for Okun’s law already , it seems to me.
Here’s a discussion about using an income-based measure (GDI) , rather than the standard output-based measure (GDP) for the calculation that seems to come up with a better fit for recent years :
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/01/is-okuns-law-really-broken/
Maybe you could tweak the method in some manner using your ‘debt contribution’ data and invent your own law. I’d like to see you give it some wise-ass name , like Hokum’s Law or Ocker’s Law , just to pull some chains in academia , particularly if it outshines the current version(s).
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:14 pm
Forgive me if this has already been answered elsewhere.
Aren’t the Americans doing all they can to kick-start inflation, with perhaps the hope of prolonging the debt binge? Why does Steve discount strong inflation as a possible outcome?
If it is possible, how long then can the debt binge continue?
March 2nd, 2010 at 10:18 pm
[...] 7) Debitwatch (EN) [link] [...]
March 2nd, 2010 at 10:33 pm
Steve,
Great post, as always. I think I agree with Mich #23 too – I’m not sure we’ll have the luxury of “turning Japanese”. As Mich points out they were alone in a world of otherwise growing nations – they could export their way out of trouble (well, not out of trouble, delay the trouble) and fund the debt themselves – about 95% of government debt is internally funded.
The world is a different place. Not everyone can export their way out of trouble. Any foreign investors, whom almost all OECD countries need to court, are starting to be a little pickier about who they choose to fund.
I would throw this into the ring of potential “bubble bursters” for the Australian game. About 30% of banks’ short term funding comes from overseas – and foreigners are massively overweight Australian bank debt after our issuing binge in recent months*. And with massive infrastructure projects requiring huge sums of debt investment, perhaps capital will be a little more expensive to come by…
Foreign fixed income investors might leave the sinking ship earlier if either (i) the China story comes unstuck (ii) the housing market gets a whiff of downward movement. Who knows about scenario (i), but I’ve heard it from good sources that delinquencies are on the rise again, and at a pace that is causing great anxiety in some quarters.
It’s a mug’s game to call the timing of the end of a bubble. This mug reckons 2010 is (finally) it. And no, I’m not walking anywhere if I’m wrong.
* pointed out by my mate, Sam the man.
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:05 pm
gunny57, an additional point that isn’t mentioned is that disposable income is inflated by the stimulus from increasing debt. Once the bubble collapses and the stimulus decreases then our incomes are going down, and it is going to be harder for a lot of people to pay their mortgages. It really is the perfect storm.