I am giving a talk on the blog today at Swinburne University in Melbourne, and frankly I am not all that prepared on the main issue of interest to the organisers there, which is the educational impact of this blog (and blogging in general) versus other forms of education.
I just established this blog to get the Debtwatch report out initially, and it’s grown in both size and personality in ways that I never envisaged. It’s been very gratifying, but I haven’t really had the time to reflect on they whys and hows of the process of blogging.
I would really appreciate having members provide comments on this specific issue, which I will be able to bring up in real time during the talk today.
Specific questions include:
1. How have you found this blog (and blogs in general) as an educational medium?
2. Your reflections on the blog as a community: how engaged are you in this, especially in comparison to your (if necessary!) memories of your engagement in your formal education?
Finally, thoughts in general are most welcome on the blog itself.
Cheers, Steve
PS I won’t be able to respond to any messages for at least 30 hours.
February 4th, 2010 at 7:59 am
1. I have found this blog educational and interesting mainly for the openly presented research by yourself. It’s highly unusual for this kind of work to be so open and accessible I think. For me the use of dynamic systems to model the interplay between forces and show the chaotic or unstable nature of things has been illuminating, and specific key insights like the reverse causality between interest rates and debt demand, or clear models that show how leveraged asset speculation can increase the levels of debt compared to GDP, are all very important and it is primarily this kind of material that brings me back. Also, I have to add, there is a certain Oz flavour to things here, which to an outsider seems healthily clear and no-nonsense.
2. I am not too engaged in the community here but when I am it is always civil. This is also unusual and is part of the overall attraction. In contrast, other blogs are often battle zones, where the only educational aspect is being able to submit ideas in the expectation that they will come under the test of hostile rebuke.
I think an important aspect of this community here though is that really, I mean really, the prevailing paradigm of economic thinking needs to be replaced, and this blog community helps to evangelise that message. The only shame is that the time will come when the current paradigm becomes the old paradigm, and this blog will be less significant as it becomes the norm, though it might get more popular.
February 4th, 2010 at 8:20 am
Steve
I’ll give some thought to this and should be able to provide some real time comments.
BTW, Mish talking about the imminent bust of the Aussie housing bubble – many mentions of you and this blogsite
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article16958.html
February 4th, 2010 at 8:33 am
I have found the blog enlightening, particularly on one aspect. I was never satisfied of all the classic theory “equilibrium” stuff. As a trader first and a fund manager later, I had ample evidence systems natural status is imbalance, never equilibrium.
To find an economist starting from caos and disequilibrium, use differential equations with ease and nail a debt theory that makes a lot of sense and have a lot of real life coincidence..was refreshing.
I think this way of thinking MUST be spread around, and having immigrated in New Zealand from Italy, I was not surprise to find a much more advanced Academic environment. In Italy they still teach Modigliani and Miller as the Bible even in Business School!!
Mandelbrot is just brushed aside, even in finance courses, though I assure you…I used the Hurst coefficients in a creative but rigorous way to make a lot of money!!
I intend to ask permission to Prof. Keen to translate part of this work and make it known in Italy on a magazine that goes to the Bank of Italy Study dept. where I still occasinally write, hoping they will see the light and will want to talk to him (I am well aware of copyright and attribution rights, I will extensively quote is HIS work and keep it constantly in brackets)….but I think innovative thinking MUST be spread around, and debated, and bettered, if possible.
One thing I do agree…there is a Downunder distinct flavour..Aussies and Kiwis don’t “muck around”, they go straight to the problem…and I love it.
February 4th, 2010 at 9:09 am
1) Generally I have found the Internet and various blog sites incredibly informative about the current state of affairs in finance & economics. The mainstream media has dumbed down so much and rarely tackles this issue with the intellectual rigour it deserves.
2) The participatory format of the Internet & blogs can be hugely beneficial as an educational medium. There have been many times when I have had discussions / debates with people and this has helped to shape mine (and maybe their) opinion about the world. Without this participation we would just be relying on the spoon feeding (corporate propaganda?) technique that TV, press & even much of formal education provides.
Keep up the prolific, open source and participatory format, Steve. It is very much appreciated!
February 4th, 2010 at 9:16 am
This blog offers me an opportunity to participate in a discussion seeded by Steve’s articles.
If I went to the uni to study economics this would be a push model – the knowledge (and some pseudo-knowledge as well) would be pushed and then the results of pushing re-enforced by exams. I will end up having a lot of knowledge but also conditioned to think in a certain way. (I have been conditioned to think in a technical way)
Buying a book and doing self-study would be an example of a pull model. I did it when for example I educated myself about object-oriented methodology in programming. (I had graduated before object-oriented approach became predominant, it was gaining ground at that time but was not the main paradigm).
This blog is an example of the kind-of participation model – new media (the Internet) made it possible to create a virtual community when we do what classical Greek philosophers did – listen to lectures provided by the senior philosopher (Steve), and then have disputes involving confront different views. This was one of the most productive periods in the history of Western thought and civilisation. (I know that there were similar periods in the Chinese and Indian histories of civilisations as well).
For me this is an intellectual journey where I am not constrained by any particular goal except for my own curiosity. For example the recent dispute with MMT scholars forced me to spend about 2 days reading about the way the reserve bank and treasury actually operate and create money – and how this has been translated into the Chartalist language. I had planned doing something else (finishing writing the perl script to convert models to the scilab format) but I would not have read the most boring bits unless I had not been challenged (or challenged myself).
BTW the perl script will be ready in a few days time – I haven’t forgotten about it.
Finally I would like to emphasise that Steve’s approach to macroeconomics is the most consistent with the methodology used in technical sciences. For me it is obvious that if we are talking about a parameter A affecting parameter B – we have to write a formula. If we are considering income – this is a flow (d money/dt) If we are considering somebody’s debt – this is a stock. People who don’t use the dynamic framework either consciously have made such an oversimplification (what severely limits the applicability of their models) or simply don’t know what they are talking about.
When we have a set of equations and parameters – we can run a simulation (we can do modelling) and only then we can draw final conclusions about the behaviour of the model and its consistency with the reality.
Finally I would be quite conservative in changing the formula of the blog – but there can be good arguments to start a forum attached to it while the main thread of comments related to the current topic could remain in the old format. But this is only my view and I may be wrong.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank Steve for all his effort. The most of the economists have a hidden agenda – they want to make a lot of money for themselves, stage a little revolution for their own pleasure, become celebrities, get a Nobel’s prize or all of the above. In the Steve’s case the agenda is not hidden – I believe that this is all about educating people, removing toxic elements of pseudo-science from economics and then reforming our economical and political system so that people in democratic countries can benefit and serious social disorder can be avoided.
One day people will be very grateful for this effort.
February 4th, 2010 at 9:18 am
1. In my view blogs written by people with an expertise and passion about the subject they are blogging about are an essential life long learning tool. They can be easily discovered by those interested in the topic using search engines such as Google. They also tend to be written for the educated layman, unlike academic papers. Another great thing about blogs is that the location of the blogger is unimportant, so a much larger audience can be reached than an audience in a lecture theatre. I would also rate highly personal websites by experts who regularly write articles and op eds for the layman, as well as sites which intelligently aggregate posts that challenge the mainstream view. The advantage blogs have over these latter forms of communication is that a blog which allows comments or which is open to multiple bloggers is not a top down form of communication. The first post on a topic invites feedback and input from others. If this input is considered it can add a lot of value – its more like an informal tutorial environment than a lecture.
2. My engagement in the blog community is very limited as I don’t have the time or expertise to contribute much to the discussion. However I think thoughtful comments are an extremely valuable part of a blog and I regularly skim the comments to your posts.
3. In my view your blog is excellent and I hope you continue to find the time to keep up the great work. The only feature I’d like to see added to your blog is a links area linking to blogs/websites of other post-Keynesian economists – I find such links areas a very useful discovery tool. It’s also a lot less work than providing links to individual articles.
Marion
PS I hope to get to your talks this afternoon.
February 4th, 2010 at 9:53 am
Steve,
First I’d like to thank you for all the time and thought and generosity that you give to your blog. It is greatly appreciated.
My background is in physiology so dynamic systems make a lot of sense to me. It amazes me that standard textbook economics is not based on dynamic system models. I read of the physiocrats in France in the 1700’s modelling the French economy as if it were a body with circulation and flows which I find fascinating, and in the same vein (pardon the pun) as your work. I think time will look back very unkindly on the current crop of neo-classical economists. If only they were a quaint anachronism instead of a large noose for western economies.
In answer to your questions:
1) Excellent. I have learnt more off this economics blog then any of the numerous economics textbooks I have (attempted to) read. I believe universities have a responsibility to society to produce and share knowledge for the common wealth, so I think academic blogs are a fantastic medium for this kind of sharing. I may not have time to physically make it to the (few) open lectures given at a university but with blogs I can sit down at home with a cup of tea each evening and receive some superb intellectual treats.
They are fundamentally different from textbooks, in that they are so rapidly responsive. So for example, if a relevant news story breaks, you can read an expert’s analysis within days instead of waiting several years to read the paper version.
2) It is quite fascinating and informative reading other readers response to the main blog. It is comforting to realise that I am not the only one with an interest in the subject, and to hear other peoples and perceptions. I have found a lot of useful links, information and humour from the comments section.
good luck for the talk
I look forward to seeing it when it’s posted
G
February 4th, 2010 at 10:06 am
Hi Steve & g’day to the Swinny students!
As an IT professional and ex-swinny student myself here are my thoughts on the benefits of a blog like yours:
1. Information – you provide us with valuable source of alternate information that the mainsteam meadia is not ready for yet. Although you do get mainstream coverage it is often for your “contrarian” or “prophet of doom” perspective rather than for your logic, insight, and expertise. Conversely your logic, insight, and expertise are exactly why so many intellecutal types are interested in your blog as a leading source of info.
2. Informal – the informal nature of a blog allows you to communicate on a realistic level. You mostly use a friendly first person style, with an appropriate levels of sarcasm, forceful language, subversivness ideas. ie a good adult conversation, which you cant always have in academia, let alone in mainstream media.
3. Community – by careful nuturing of your blog (stay fresh, stay on topic and moderate idiots) you establish a community of like-minded people which can facilitate all sorts of secondary benefits. eg Information flowing back to you, validation of your ideas, challenge to your ideas (all of which help refine your message, presentation and rhetoric), meetings, fund rasing, fun and laughter. Your community is both worldwide, and growing.
4. Conversation – a blog is not just publishing it is conversation, for each topic you post there are avaerage >100 comments. The conversation continues 24 hrs per day, and even when you are not present, in fact a lot of conversation is not to you personally, but to the group.
5. Openness – sort of accounted for above, but a blog is “open” to the whole world to read and comment. There is risk in sharing information, especially before it is fully mature, but you embrace that and use the blog to enhance your materials. Contrast this to academics that hoard their information, falsly assuming that holding information close to their chest brings them power or leverage. Sharing information is leverage and power!
6. Technology – by using the appropriate technology (blog is good for yours – others might use wiki or full web site) you provide access for others to (a) discover your work ie search (b) follow your work ie subscribe and (c) for you to hyperlink to other works, documents, blogs, sites, and so complete the circle of information. For example i also follow Mish Shedlock, who I first discovered from your blog. For the record I use a feed reader (google reader) as I dont have time to seek out daily information, instead I prefer it to come to me. For your entertainment here is my eclectic set of daily feeds: Steve Keen, Mish, The Daily Reckonning, AFL Football, ABC News, Guitar Noise, Two Beers With Steve (not you), Librivox New Releases.
7. Seek Assistance – if ever you need a hand (like your request today) then there is a willing community ready to help you out in return for all the value and entertainment you provide for us. It is a 2-way street out there. Another benefit of a blog is you can pull up items in real time in front of an audience wherever you may be.
8. Active or passive – a final note, we mostly start out as passive readers of a blog, but it is fun to jump in occasionally as an active member, it gives a sense of empowerment and involvement, a chance to participate in something outside of your workplace, and direct to your personal interests. There is a revolution is grass roots participation on the web in all sorts of topics small, medium and large, and as we are hopefully doing here promoting ideas from conception to reality, and ultimately as the economic crisis unfolds fully helping to overthrow tyranny and greed
That’s just a few idle thoughts for your session today and from a general IT perspective of benefits of (well run) blogs. Sorry it was so long but I could write for pages and pages about this topic as the dynamics are quite fascinating once you dig under the surface. Good luck at Swinburne today.
February 4th, 2010 at 10:14 am
1. I have found this blog to be an essential tool in my endeavor to education myself in economics. Case in point last year as I was doing an assignment on Fractional Reserve Banking and much to my chagrin but also relief (So I didn’t have to waste any more grey matter on some unempirical fudged up wishful thinking that was instigated only really as a means to stave off the inherent risk associated with our uncertain future but taken on as dogma) the assignment became more of an expose of the present attempts to understand how the economy works thanks to the information of empirical nature discussed here.
That search still continues and I must say the recent introduction of news that the CSIRO has and is conducting a Bio-systems approach is heartening. Without this blog I would not be aware of this that is how important this site has became as a source of authority and spur to higher understanding.
On blogs in general; I find them often self indulgent.
2. (I’ve got to go to work! Out of time.) Mature minded approach here but I do second ak’s desire for a forum approach in regards to questions people might ask about economics in general and allow for those who know to disseminate their knowledge. Examples being the many great forums on line that have educated me in aspects of Math, Biology etc and even how to change my head casket in me ute.
Thanks Steve, I’d hazard you’ll be up there with Darwin in due time.
Christopher.
February 4th, 2010 at 10:14 am
Hi Steve, everyone,
I visit here so I can get a clue. Economics is a subject I love to hate, but it pervades all of our lives so it makes no sense to vote of my despise of it by wallowing in ignorance.
With regards to education; blogs — like any kind of speech — can be useful or trivial. In the past, authors of controversial challenges to the status quo could only have short-run publishings of books or articles in obscure scholarly journals. Now thanks to the internet, thoughts of appeal to various ‘netizens can publish acedemic articles themselves to a world-wide audience. The advantage of blogging is therefore that much more timely thoughts can be disseminated in close to real time related to emerging global events.
Thus we don’t need to wait for 6 months (or more) for a studious physical text to emerge explaining the subprime fiasco. Blogging alows those active in the thought-space to publish and comment almost immediately.
It allows one’s theories to be both diseminated rapidly but also to gain feedback in return from readers (like this thread for eg
— many of whom are also not economists thus also exposing the field itself to a wider less ‘ivory-tower’ audience. I believe this to be a significant groundswell of social change of thought and action.
(as per above: consider the thought-experiment of the blog of an accepted luminary [eg Einsteins] and the effect that would have had on both the physics, physicists themselves, as well as on the wider layperson community)
February 4th, 2010 at 10:25 am
(in my second-last paragraph, I would have prefered to say/add:
“I believe this to be a significant groundswell of social change of thought and action … in terms of the movement and dissemination of knowledge.”)
February 4th, 2010 at 10:35 am
Steve,
Your entries provide me with an excellent introduction to your ideas.
The discussion is also useful in that participants often give links to other interesting and relevant sites.
IMO the civility displayed (and strongly managed by you) is both quaint and extremely important for maintaining the level of participants and observers.
As an educational tool, I wonder how much the ‘man/woman in the street’ can gain from it. I have studied and taught economics for most of my working life so the fact that I find your entries straightforward and clear may not apply to a wider audience.
I visit the site frequently (sad soul)and will often scroll through the ‘conversation’ because it does not interest me and/or requires knowledge and expertise that I do not possess. I believe that you have discussed having seperate ’strands’ which could help but this also could have its drawbacks.
The other obvious difficulty on the net is assessing the plausibility of the participants. When trying to follow an esoteric argument I often find myself wondering whether individuals are expounding brilliant ideas or dealing in fallacies.
Reading ak’s description of the classical Greeks’ participation model(5)causes me to think that the problems described above could be addressed to some extent by having discussion/argument/disputation facilitated by a respected moderator in a seminar or tutorial in a university or in some kind of live exchange over the internet. The reference material for these discussions would be the entries that had been contributed on a particular topic over a previous period. Too idealistic, or is it already taking place?
February 4th, 2010 at 11:00 am
Steve,
I would like to add my gratitude to the expressions of same from other contributors to these discussions. I derive a great deal of value from your work on this blog and the intelligent, insightful comments that you elicit. The insight you gave me that modern banks operate on “fictional reserves” was a turning point for me.
I believe that you are addressing many pernicious economic myths through your work and I hope the development of your multi sector model will lead to a re-evaluation of the approach to economic thinking and analysis.
I read and listen to the mainstream media (MSM) with increasing disappointment and a growing disaffection. Blogs like this one IMHO are the future of media and they will be (are?) a key educational tool. As ak pointed out this community follows a tradition that echoes the approach of the early Greek thinkers.
One of the false accusations levelled at blogs, aggregators etc by the MSM is that they lack quality control and they perpetuate rumours and crackpot theories. Your blog and this community is an eloquent rebuttal of these allegations.
I accept that blogs etc need to be approached with a healthy level of scepticism. In this spirit I have a few questions for the MSM:
1. How many of your articles provide any citations? Can I access them instantly on the rare occasion that you do or am I expected to “trust you” on the fact checking? When you use a news wire story do you insist on evidence that it was fact checked before you run it?
2. Do your pundits provide a complete archive of everything that they have written so I can review their track record?
3. Can I ask you questions about the material you present and receive an answer in near real time?
4. Can I talk with other viewers, readers or listeners and compare notes on their reactions as well as their thoughts on the quality and accuracy of an article?
5. Do your journalists operate in a meritocracy where the public can rate the stories, expose errors or expand on the topic in the same medium where the original article is presented? Can we share links to good material? Can we signal our rejection of poor material?
6. Can we abandon an individual journalist or pundit who doesn’t measure up? In other words, can we do the hiring and firing in your media organisation?
Steve, sorry for the longwinded response but the MSM attacks on this medium aggravate me. They should put their own house in order.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:03 am
The availability of blogging offers an *unprecedented* opportunity for access to real experts (as opposed to high profile commentators) in any field. It would be impossible for me, trained in engineering, to so rapidly come up to speed on economics without this mechanism. And, how would I ever gain access to a busy Australian economists thoughts on the issues of the day in a timely manner?
If someone’s ideas seem reasonable, I bookmark and follow them. If not, I move along. Blogging offers a unique way to implement my own credibility filter.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:17 am
I have found this (and some other blogs) useful, as I don’t have a background in economics.
The current GFC has made me realise that I need to understand economics, money and how works, in order to be able to make sensible decisions.
I read a variety of blogs (some that I don’t necessariily agree with) to work out what is going on. I find this blog very useful, though some points are hard to understand on first reading.
One of the big advantages of blogs over more formal written work is that it is more up to date. By the time a book is published or a paper circulated, it is “old news.” To me, the immediacy of the information is one of its attractions.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:45 am
As a stay at home dad – having quit a (internationally) successful career in science/academia (eg. Humboldt fellowship in 2002) – I consider the internet and blog sites incredibly empowering as a source of information, a vehicle to express views and see the impact of those views on others, and for comeraderie.
Over the last two years, I have literally changed a nappy, or fed my child, or put them to bed – then sat down at the computer to join debate with others around the country, indeed the world, about our housing bubble.
It allows me to not just feel connected with a debate of national importance, but to actually feel engaged in it real time.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:51 am
Participating in this blog has been the ultimate education process. I consult the posts on debtdeflation daily. This is one of many sites that I have bookmarked under economics including the daily reckoning, the Ludwig Von Mises Institute, Paul Krugman’s Blog, Conscience of a Liberal, Mike Shedlock’s excellent site and around 12 others. I also subscribe to Shadow stats, and Marc Faber’s Doom Gloom and Boom report and Dave Rosenberg’s excellent Breakfast with Dave newsletter. I pretty much get all my information online these days and barely read a newspaper. I used to subscribe to the Age and the AFR. I find that I get better quality and more current information online. Visiting your site is part of that process. I also find that the debate on the site better shapes and forms my thinking than other media particularly the dialogue with the other participants.
I am interested in economics in its own right, but I also approach it from a practical perspective. Although I have an economics degree I am not involved in economic policy work. I should contextualise how I used the debtdeflation site with my background as that influences how I interact with the site. I approach the debates and discussion as an investor conscious of the need to understand the underlying economy in guiding his decisions. A couple of years ago I lost heap of money and one of the factors that contributed was that the model I had of the economy was not useful and led me to expect that the future would very much mirror the recent past with minor fluctuations. I don’t trade speculatively despite my userid and tend to hold long term positions in good companies.
I believe the inaccurate and unrealistic paradigm I have of the economy directly contributed to my losses. This site and the perspectives and discussions you champion have led me to conclude that the future will be different and that the contraction of leverage will be the main influence. I believe that I need to learn more in deciding how to respond as an investor. More broadly, I have rediscovered an interest in economics and the site has reopened the voyage of discovery I embarked upon almost 2 decades ago as an economics undergraduate. I thought that I reached that destination when I graduated but the voyage of discovery has recommenced. I have read many of lectures you have posted and have bought your book. In addition, since I first bookmarked debt deflation I have read no less that 30 economics books including, Paul Krugman’s Return of Depression Economics (a waste of time), Murray Rothbard’s, America’s Great Depression, Thomas Wood’s, Meltdown, and many others. I am looking forward to receiving four more from Amazon next week including: “Keynes:The Return of the Master”, “Hayek’s Road to Serfdom” and Rogoffs new book on economic crisises. I am almost finished George Cooper’s excellent book, The Origin of Financial Crises: Central banks, credit bubbles and the efficient market fallacy.
One thing I find appealing is the courageous and partisan stance that you take against the excesses of the housing bubble. I find the spruiking that occurs in media outrageous and deceptive and the federal our government’s policy in lifting and extending housing grants unbelievably reckless and destructive. I tend to follow the debates about housing closely. Where I have responded with the blog community I have tended to do so in response to folks engaged in the housing debate.
I am rediscovering economics and my views are formative at this stage so I am not able to participate adequately to debate around the theory because I haven’t yet taken a position. I am also interested in the question of whether the crisis will result in deflation of inflation. I think the Japanese experience points to deflation but to the extent that we now live in a world of growing sovereign debt one cannot rule out longer term inflation introduced by debt monetisation.
I find the critiques you offer of the discipline interesting and valid in their own right and believe that the current crisis particularly the lack of history in economics. I think that many of these sites are engaging in a theoretical challenge to the neoclassical mainstream will intimately pull of a “Kuhnian” paradigm shift in economics.
February 4th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
I am a new subscriber to this site. Blogging is new to me as well, but like a lot of the other comments, I find the information more up to date & relivent.
Being a Mortgage Broker it is important to give your customers the best information available.
I have started to do my own blogging as I believe it is the way for the future for the younger generations & to get my message out to existing & prospective customers.
February 4th, 2010 at 12:07 pm
I wanted also to pick up on the one point of camaraderie.
Blog sites perform an important social function in forming communities of like-minded people.
Natural contrarians can feel isolated during a bubble, especially one that is so pervasive as this housing bubble. I think this is especially true of younger people.
It is so common to see the initial post of somebody along the lines “thank goodness I found this site – I was beginning to think the whole world had gone mad and I was the only sane one left”.
Contrarians still want to appease their evolutionary desire to be a part of a community – or “the herd” – but their analytic side does not allow the joining in with the herd when they beleive it to be an error.
Here is a comment made on another blog site just yesterday
“Seriously, every person that profited from the bubble ridiculed me. From real estate agents to my own moronic family members, I was laughed at and basically told, ‘you’ve missed the boat, mate.’ I’ve been tearily watching this bubble since 1998, when I began uni. Every single bloody time I’ve had a deposit to buy, the prices have gone up, thus pricing me out of the market. It got to a point in 2002/03 when I refused to invest because I thought it was a neglegent decision.”
Repelling the desire to be part of the herd can cause a great deal of angst for some. And joining an online community such as a blog site often lessens that angst.
February 4th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
1. Yes your blog and blogs in general are a very useful tool of education. I think this is particularly so on contrarian and diffeing opinions from mainstream. The blog allows opinions where there is not a geographically concentrated form of consensus to gain an online critical mass (that critical mass which is far lower on blogs as they are easier to reproduce, pass on and publish than traditional eduction, ie books, secondary and tertiary education etc).
Now geographically dispersed people can form differing and esoteric opinions by way of the blogs.
I think your blog and others that divert from the mainstream are invaluable absolutely essential to challenging and contesting the consensus dialogue of economists and other financial authorities. Whether they are ultimately wrong or right they further the general discussion and thought on particular points
2. Blogs and engagement are notoriously difficult. Comments and responses to comments are notoriously difficult to review, respond and create a dialogue amongst (They are just too long, unedited and time consuming to sift through). In order to be more effective as a community tool, there needs to be something like an online round table or something similar, where it is lead and controlled by a leader (This is what can be taken from the formal education system).
Currently the community aspect is too difficult in this sense (well at least the benefit relative to the time expended is not sufficient to justify.
Keep up the great work.
February 4th, 2010 at 12:38 pm
1. Blogs obviously depend on the abilities, discipline and commitment of their authors. I’ve found this blog’s posts and public contributed comments to be excellent when trying to get my head around current economic events and economic thought in general.
Steve knows his stuff and the blog is backed in authority and material by his acedemic works. Not all blogs I trust to be as clear thinking, so I only follow a few blogs. For me I need to trust the author in order to decide to invest time with the work and provisionally accept the statements made until I understand more.
I like the nature of the blog format because it allows the material to be interpreted in current events – it sort of lives rather than becoming a static artefact. This is important to me because I’m trying to understand this material primarily in order to navigate current events rather than for understanding as an end in itself (though that is worthwhile and enjoyable too).
2. My formal education did not really have any engagement. I have participated a few times on this blog when the course of comments have come close to my own specific curiosities to investigate or when I feel I could contribute a different angle. In general though because the commentary on this blog is in general very much “on topic” I follow the comments in a similar way to the blog itself.
3. This particular blog has opened my eyes to how taught theory can live on well past it’s use-by date and to things I learnt in my uni course that I worried about at the time but “knuckled under” because they were presented as valuable only now 25 years later find were bunkum. I’m angry about being mislead when I was young and for the erroneous ideas to be carried on through the press (probably by other mislead students) but very pleased to find out via this blog that I can ditch those bad ideas and learn again.
I hope other acedemics with things to say will be as courageous as Steve in opening their work to a wider community.
February 4th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
1. I use Blogs as a news feed. But blogs do allow the writer to have a dialogue with people from around the world with varying expertises and experiences. I think its good for honest researchers to have people question their work to see if it stands up.
2. I’ve been reading your blog since you posted the roving cavaliers of credit. I haven’t felt too involved. I’m still a novice so if I have a question, its usually answered by googleing.
3. I like how you write about current events and how they fit into your philosophy, then back it with history and graphs. Where some people may try to get their philosophies down to a sound bite, you seem willing to put in the work to make your concepts easy enough to understand but concise enough that they may take a bit to explain.
February 4th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Hi Steve,
1.) I think this is an excellent educational blog that provides me exposure to economics concepts that I ordinarily would not receive. I’m a dynamic systems and controls guy that has a strong interest in economics but has never taken a econ class. Blog technology allows me to time shift so that I can access the info at my own convenience. The quality of the work is excellent and substantial. Given the way I have heard most universities teach econ, departments belong to certain schools of thought and can be quite stifling of alternative theories. I think blog technology has provided a way for new concepts to get wide exposure that might not otherwise have resulted.
2.)I think this blog community is also high quality and very diverse. I am extremely pleased by the number of posters who have different backgrounds and who make excellent contributions. I believe the back and forth exchange of ideas are civil and helpful for furthering the authors research. I believe the expertise of the author, coupled with the engagement of a diverse set of posters makes for an awesome educational experience while simultaneously providing the potential for innovative theories to emerge and take hold. There is nothing like experiencing the competition of ideas in a free and open marketplace. You don’t get this from a traditional academic experience.
February 4th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
This blog and blogs of this type are useful for the analysis and data, which MSM rarely, if ever, provides.
While the ongoing debates are quite valuable the most powerful aspect of blogs is the amount of information that is shared and can be sourced in one place on a set of subjects. With members contributing facts, anecdotes, links, comments and analysis, the depth of information available is much greater than a normal media publication.
However, with the increasingly lengthy and complex debates running over this blog, it requires more time to follow than 2 paragraph comments. An option (vBulletin??) integrated with Wordpress might help, or not-
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?236778-Vbulletin-and-Wordpress-integration-questions.
More debates over that topic, no doubt.
February 4th, 2010 at 4:33 pm
I bet your blog gets way more views then scholarly articles in academic journals. Hows that for education?
February 4th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Steve, I have some excess time on my hands with the GFC. I found your site, bought the book and read it. Followed the blog and bought Hyman Minsky’s book on Keynes and read it. Read Irving Fischer’s Debt Deflation article available from the Fed. I am now so depressed that I ignore all the news broadcasts. I am now hunkered down with with Per Baks “the way nature works” and picked up some books by Karl Popper. I think the blog is super educational, but I lack the intestinal fortitude to follow the Debt/GDP saga anymore. Thanks for the fine work. I’m going to go mix a martini. Regards, B
February 4th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
I have relied on blogs to understand the financial crisis and teach myself economics because they are topical and usually written for a general audience. Relying on the internet means wading through a lot of crank ideas, but that’s fine if you approach everything with a critical eye-once you can find the flaws in the debt virus hypothesis, the gold standard, and chartalism, you’ve learned a fair bit about the monetary system. During this process it’s essential to find at least one source you trust is thinking critically, testing his assumptions, and showing his work. The great strength of this blog as an educational tool is its mix of pithy commentary and more academic treatment of models and data, which invites the neophyte to keep coming back and dig a little deeper.
February 4th, 2010 at 6:40 pm
Steve,
Question 1.
In my experience (and I’ve been surfing the Net for quite a while), I’ve found some very informative resources on the Net in general. As I tend to be quite critical and sceptic, when I endorse a particular resource I am fully confident that it’s well above the average.
With this in mind, I can say Debtwatch is among the very best. Steve’s comments are always clear, informative and up to the point; his reasoning is always coherent and compelling; he’s also made freely available a copious wealth of top-notch lectures and papers.
In particular, I’ve found Steve’s papers on Labour Theory of Value and his lectures on history of economic thought extremely valuable.
Besides, it’s not every day that one can interact with a scholar of Steve’s calibre, who also happens to be a down-to-earth bloke. And this is something that can hardly be overlooked. I invite anyone here to try and interact with some of the economic (and academic in general) holly cows that populate the blogosphere.
From my personal perspective, this blog has inspired me to try and continue my education.
As I can imagine all the work and effort that go into keeping this blog running (for which we all need to thank Steve) I would like to contribute in some way. Unfortunately, due to my personal circumstances, I am unable to help Steve with funding or with technical matters (and he most certainly deserves it), as I’ve seen other members have. For this, I apologize sincerely.
But if there is anything I can do, just let me know. Or what about a list of things to do that you can safely delegate? Nothing sensitive, say proof-reading, or formatting stuff, or whatever of the same nature?
Question 2.
My experience with the blog is similar to others I have seen. I don’t post as often as many, but I do read what others have posted, and the discussions are frequently pertinent and always civilized.
To be honest, I don’t always agree with the positions taken, but they usually make me look for further information. In the process, I often learn a thing or two.
So, in general, I believe the community formed around the blog maintains a high level.
However, here I would like to mention to another blog member who has been specially helpful and welcoming: Phil. Thanks mate.
February 4th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Steve, Googled your website after watching you on the 7:30 Report about 18 months ago. When you spoke you made sense about private debt, deleveraging and that property prices will return to a level of which the weekly pay packet can afford.
I was sick and tired of hearing the rubbish spoken by all the mainstream economists. Some of their comments make me so angry I feel like throwing a brick at the TV screen every time they talk.
Blog sites managed by professionals such as yourself provide informative, non-bias and quality information.
February 4th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
Steve,
Thank you. You have taught me an awful lot in the past 12-18 months. You have really raised the level of intelligence and understanding out there. You speak reasonable sense, without any vested interests. For some reason this critical point has gone unnoticed.
Thanks to you I have not only increased my interest in all things related but I now have the ability to spread your ideas and thoughts (in very simplified form) to others, while they are often unable to think further than quoting bubble slogans.
I tend to cop a bit of flak for it at times, but the ability to provide an alternative to the somewhat dangerous group-think on the credit bubble is beneficial. If I can get just a few people think rationally – instead of simply following -before they ‘marry their bank’ then job done. We may even get some form of consensus for change when things really deflate.
As a natural contrarian, homes4aussies summed up my position and feelings perfectly. The amount of time I spend on this now is quite astounding, knowing there are others out there really helps. I already work in the (parasitic) FIRE sector, but now I have a genuine interest that I want to pursue further.
Thanks again.
- Matt
February 4th, 2010 at 9:12 pm
Steve
1. Your blog is a success because your ideas are outstanding. Ever since Gutenberg first made information widely available, media has always been about content. For that you get 10/10.
2. I like this blog over all others because despite different views, everyone is civil to each other. Steve, you can take great credit for this in the way you manage the site. I also think your ideas attract a certain type of person to this blog. A person who has genuine interest in learning, rather than people who just want to rant.
Not sure if that helps – just my thoughts.
February 4th, 2010 at 10:21 pm
1. This is just about the only blog I’ve found to be educational, in the true sense, though a couple of others would fit the bill. But 99% of blogs are just drivel and a waste of time.
2. They tried to teach me Economics at Uni but I couldn’t understand it as it just didn’t add up. Back then I thought it was that I was just stupid or something, I dropped it. But when I found (20yrs later) debtdeflation and then read Steve’s book Economics I found I did understand economics afterall!!! (Well most of it anyhow, I need to reread a couple of chapters in Debunking Eco’).
It’s good to know there are others who think like me out there, people who look further than a few years to understand what’s happening and who understand peoples nature hasn’t changed a bit in thousands of years. Most people just cannot accept their views/beliefs etc. are wrong & are unable to change.
I actually wish there were more people on this blog who did NOT believe and we could have more debating/arguing.
Thanks for the education.
February 4th, 2010 at 10:23 pm
P.S. I’d say I’m more engaged here in a way since it’s not “Work” it’s enjoyable I’m doing it because I want to every time!!
February 4th, 2010 at 10:54 pm
1. How have you found this blog (and blogs in general) as an educational medium?
I have learned more from blogs than I ever did at school.
You can read about certain subjects on blogs, follow a link and find you learn something new far removed from the subject of the original blog.
You also learn to cross reference and seek clarification on what is presented in blogs as there are many that have an agenda, so you do have to learn to filter the information.Of course the internet has made this possible as it it easier and quicker to do this than walk into a library, you are more inclined to read blogs etc when you have spare time than you are to go to a reference library or to a college, well it is for me anyway.
2. Your reflections on the blog as a community: how engaged are you in this, especially in comparison to your (if necessary!) memories of your engagement in your formal education?
The community of the blog helps to focus on some of the information that you may not have interpreted correctly, it also helps you to filter the information.In school if you didnt understand something, you were wary of raising your hand, so as not to appear stupid, the fact that the rest were in the same position didnt enter your mind. On a blog you can ask anything without fear of asking the dumb question, because really there are no dumb questions and on the whole there are plenty of people willing to with various subjects.
Finally, thoughts in general are most welcome on the blog itself.
I found this blog by visiting another blog. You were mentioned so I searched and found here. You have made the subject of economics, easy, interesting, and most of all you appear trustworthy. It is easy to get bogged down in the acronyms, and any of us can waffle and confuse people with our own area of expertise, but if we keep things simple most folk can understand, you have that ability with your blogs and the various articles, and films you have posted
February 5th, 2010 at 12:05 am
mfo @29
Funny you say that because that is exactly what I did, I remember the segment on 730 report, and I have logged on an average of 5-6 days a week since. I only occasionally contribute.
I guess an economics blog attracts a certain type of person. You really notice this by the quality of the writing by Steve and bloggers, the wide and well considered views expressed and the rigourous but respectful nature of the debate.
I think I am less bearish than most of the members of this site, however it is important to consider different points of view and I appreciate the food for thought provided on this blog.
Can make being a high school Economics teacher difficult though, knowing that a lot of the Economic Models that you are obligated to teach bear little similarity to what actually happens in the world.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:30 am
1. Many blogs are actually misleading and misrepresent speculation and opinion as fact, like any other ‘news media’ might do. I don’t think this blog does that at all but when using blogs to learn about any given subject, especially something like finance, one must take everything you read on them with a pinch of salt. Hence my username.
A critical aspect of any blog which claims to offer expert opinion is that the writers of the blog address criticism or sceptical questioning of their views personally, sensibly, and directly. I have stopped reading blogs which can’t offer this, Mike Shedlocks blog being one such example.
2.Initially IMO one tends to read and assess the blog quality as described above. When one is confident what the position of the blog is, and that there is evidence that the blog writer will address questions, then particpation can begin.
As participation continues, one gets used to commenting and one can happily have side conversations with other readers which may not involve the blog writers and which may also be off topic. At this point the blog is a community.
Blogs such as this one in which the writer tends to retain an open mind about things tend to attract a diverse crowd of informed opinion. Blogs which OTOH present a specific political slant or for example fixed economic views tend to attract a non diverse audience. I would hold up both Mike Shedlocks libertarian oriented blog, and Bill Mitchells MMT blog as two such examples. Debtwatch is a much more diverse group and hence to me, more worthy of my time,
February 5th, 2010 at 2:01 am
The blog’s been extremely helpful in getting accurate alternate points of view that the MSM and traditional economists refuse to talk about.
That being said, a suggestion. We all know there’s a wide range of opinion online (from the accurate to the right wing end-of-the-world-buy-gold-now rubbish). I’d say since you have a good momentum going here, don’t damage your credibility by hooking up with the wrong sources.
There are some alternate MSM sources that are extremely careful to avoid things like 9/11. Why? Because:
(a) they’re a business. Just like the MSM outlets.
(b) they’re competing for an audience.
(c) the last thing they need is to be labeled as “The 9/11 Network”.
Steve goes against the crowd here in a well-researched way. Continue and try to expand your podcast section if you can. Especially for those who don’t have time to read lots of posts during the day.
February 5th, 2010 at 2:21 am
I’d say that you’re flirting with the future of education with this blog.
Specifically, I’ve difficulty imagining my children taking on $200k of debt in order to go to university, getting mediocre education in the process, and ending with barely improved carrier prospects. (Yes, I’ve an extremely low opinion of university indeed.) On the contrary, I suspect they’ll take it up to the point where they’ve learned to learn, and set out to work — while learning new things on a per need basis.
In this sense, I imagine many scholars progressively turning into some kind of rock stars. Their revenue (from books, conferences, pay walls) would depend on their fan base and on sponsorships, rather than on a fixed salary. Tools such as this blog would become crucial to converse, expand, probe and exchange ideas.
In many ways, this would look like a return to the intellectual spirit of the end of the 19th century. The driver of this change is but economic. For most students, the return on investment, of going in debt in order to get higher education, is simply too small.
February 5th, 2010 at 3:36 am
As a retired accountant who has always enjoyed economics, I was glad to have found this site many months ago. Over the last fifteen years I found myself drawn to Austrian/libertarian economics. however they don’t want to look under the bonnet and get down to nitty gritty e.g the effect of new financial instruments and role of central banking on credit and debt formation.
So basically what I like is the informed comment by the likes of Ak and others.
It’s actually a master class with Steve as the conductor.
February 5th, 2010 at 8:43 am
Steve, your blog has not only confirmed what I thought I already knew, but added to it. I write on a lot of venues, so I haven’t corresponded with many of these guys. I try to direct people to your site and that of Michael Hudson, whom I found out about here. I am trying to read all I can find of Hudsons, as it is clear he could see this from 10 miles away. There is a story in Genesis, the story of Joseph getting out of jail for interpreting Pharoah’s dream. The dream was the small corn consuming the big corn. That section of Genesis is about debt peonage, but it isn’t reported as such. The small ears are the interest due. The big the principal. Few understand the interest for repayment of debt is never loaned once we reach bubble stage. I have fronted gold bugs for years about this deflation game. You have confirmed that I wasn’t by myself in understanding this game. My education is finance, but they never taught anything about debt in the game of finance or economics. Though the supply/demand graphs gave me an idea about prices of commodities over time, the only thing I can recall that was even close to accurate was that banks created money. The idea that people put money into banks and they lend it out is far from how banks operate. Deposits are actually to pay other banks for excessive lending and have little to do with actual lending. This of course wouldn’t be true of a savings bank or other financial enterprise. I hope to add more here later.
February 5th, 2010 at 9:53 am
This blog is the most educational web site on the subject of economics I have encountered thus far.
thanks so much for putting in the time to keep it updated!
February 5th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Thanks everyone–I’m both very pleased and somewhat humbled by the feedback.
I had no idea how this blog would develop when I began it; the original idea was just to use blogging as another means to get the Debtwatch Report out.
It’s morphed into far more than that courtesy of the community it has created. I learn a lot from the comments–posters like JKH can expect emails from me as I expand the detail in the modelling of financial flows, AK and others are making it easier to develop models, David & others are helping improve the database behind my graphs, the general debate is informative in the extreme, I enjoy the banter between BTB and others about stocks,… And you all keep my spirits up because, cheerful by nature though I am, it does get a tad hard to cop some of the flak I get from time to time as well.
The talks at Swinburne went very well, and sometime soon I’ll post the videos. For now I have to turn to getting the site for the Kosciousko walk developed. On that front, I would be truly delighted to have companions from the blog on some of the days of that walk, which will start on April 15 this year.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:10 am
Dear Mr Keen
People can argue with words all day about economics and achieve nothing. Your approach of using a different language (mathematics) to demonstrate clearly the truth is without question the best.
You have also allowed me to see as in “mind blowing wow see” the injustice and fraud of the current economic system (ad just how much the media and politicians deceive us every single day).
To me that is a real gift. I know have an explanation to things that have evaded me for some 30 years.
Thanks
February 5th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
Steve, you’ve helped balance the incessant buffoonery in the media, the real estate industry, govt, and RBA, that talks up property growth.
We need the macroeconomic data dumbed down and made palatable to more Aussies. Using smart time series charts and modelling govt policies in accepted economic models will do a lot for this.
Until we get a better educated electorate, we will keep repeating the same short sighted ill informed decisions over and over.
You have gone some way towards addressing the issues of debt, net foreign debt to gdp, money supply, credit money supply.
However, I think you’d reach a wider audience, and have more persuasive power in the general media, if you limited your explanations to 1000 words, used clearer charts, and imagine you are explaining things to a Year 12 audience. I think a lot of what you say is not understood by journos or the electorate…..
February 5th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Hi Steve,
I would have to say that this blog has contributed very heavily in my “self” education about economics, moreso than any other of the several I visit. I find that for the Australian perspective there is none better. All here who read and contribute have I’m sure benefitted in some or many ways from your generosity Steve. So, many thanks indeed for that.
What I take away from this blog and it’s many eclectic contributors is the clarity it brings to murky economic noise and the confirmations I receive over and again that my layman interpretations of information and data are parralleled by the more learned in economics. First and foremeost, that keeps me financially safe.
Thanks Steve and thanks All.
GSM.
February 5th, 2010 at 1:21 pm
Steve,
Very nice to meet you on the plane back from Melbourne last night. I’m guessing that after your long day you didn’t really need that extra hour in the air…
If you ever need any help turning your models into a Bayesian format then I’d be delighted to help.
Looking forward to your commentary as this year unfolds. It’s shaping up as an entertaining year.
Kind regards, Jamie
February 5th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Thanks Steve for coming to talk to us at Swinburne, and to everyone for their comments to help Steve.
There was good feedback on the talks. One thing that struck me though was the enormous amount of Steve’s time this blog takes (on top of his other tasks) which may become even more difficult to manage if this crisis gets more attention and leads to more participation here. I am not sure if any of the very bright people here could suggest some strategies whereby Steve might be able to make running this blog more sustainable in relation to his time and commitments?
February 5th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Ah! Nice to put a face to the name Jamie. Yes I’d appreciate that work at some stage, though right now I couldn’t give it the attention it deserves.
I think it may be a good idea to hold a seminar later in the year with everyone here who can contribute technically to the work. There’s a very gratifying level of collaboration developing here, and it would be great to both introduce people to each other and help in the coordination of tasks.
February 5th, 2010 at 8:07 pm
First I would like to thank you Steve for your regular commitments in these destabilizing economic times.
I personally have grown understand a great deal more about the role of debt in causing the GFC through following your bloggings. I find the information to be current in comparison to books that have a timely process of publication and unbiased, unlike all the BS in the media. Also the commenting aspect of a blog enables for interactive discussions which assists everyone in their continual growth and learning.
February 6th, 2010 at 1:52 am
@ Steve (#42)
“And you all keep my spirits up because, cheerful by nature though I am, it does get a tad hard to cop some of the flak I get from time to time as well”.
This may be little comfort, but you are in pretty good company there: Socrates was forced to drink hemlock; Mendel was utterly ignored; Galileo was threatened.
Darwin still gets flak!
And note I don’t mention the two old German blokes that must remain unnamed.
What you’ve got to do is to show you deserve to be in their company.
Just let the bozos have their time. What goes around, comes around.