Party like it’s New Year’s Eve 1930
I recommend that you finish the year with a look at the News from 1930 blog, which is providing some “year in review” commentary on 1930 now–including these details on the market highs and lows. Obviously some things were much worse in 1930 than today–notably industrial production and the stock market:
Market highs and lows:
Dow industrial average high of 294.07 Apr. 17; low 157.51 Dec. 16. Rail average high of 157.94 Mar. 29; low 91.65 Dec. 16. Utility average high of 108.62 Apr. 12; low 55.14 Dec. 16.
Market value of NYSE-listed stocks high of $76.1B Apr. 1; low $53.3B Nov. 30.
Dow bond average high of 97.70 Oct. 1; low 92.83 Dec. 17.
Production highs and lows:
Daily oil production high of 2.722M barrels Feb. 22; low 2.127M barrels Dec. 27, lowest since July 1926.
Steel production in March was yearly high of 4.300M tons; low 2.234M Nov. 30.
Rail freight loadings high of 989,504 cars Aug. 30; low 702,085 Nov. 29 (vs. 1929 high 1,203,139, low 798,682).
Reflections
One clear factor stands out about 2009: though the vast majority of neoclassical economists (and the politicians they advise) entered the Global Financial Crisis in denial that it could even happen, by late 2008 they were in panic mode about what it could forebode. Ed Lazear, who was head of Bush’s Council of Economic Advisers from 2006-2008, gave a strong sense of just how extreme that panic was when he spoke at the Australian Economists Conference in September of this year–and the Economic Report of the President (which he submitted from 2007 till 2009) provide an interesting history of just how little idea conventional economists had that a crisis was on its way.
At the beginning of 2007, the President’s Council of Economic Advisers were confidently predicting that unemployment would remain constant in 2007, and rise only slightly in subsequent years:
A year later–at the beginning of 2008–they were only slightly less cheerful:
Even as 2009 commenced, they were still unaware of just how bad the crisis would be. The forecast below was made using data up till November 10 2008, and the forecasts are for the end of the nominated year. So the President’s Economic Advisers told Obama–on his arrival at America’s helm in February 2009–that unemployment at the end of 2009 would be … 7.7 percent:
That forecast wrong by 2.3 percent as of October 2009–even after a slight recovery:
By 2009 the biggest government stimulus packages in human history were in full swing. Australia’s Prime Minister Kevin Rudd estimated that these amounted to spending 18 percent of GDP over 3 years from September 2007 till September 2010.
As a result of these packages, the economic outcome for 2009 was far less painful than non-neoclassical economists like myself expected. I had surmised that Australian unemployment would top 9 percent by year’s end 2009–instead it is 5.7%. Unemployment in the USA has apparently started to stabilise at 10%, when I expected it to be above 13% by now.
So the government stimulus packages have, in the short term, worked. I’ll consider what might happen next further down, but I want to emphasise something here: this is as much a contradiction of standard neoclassical economic theory as the GFC was in the first place. Not only does neoclassical theory not allow that events like the GFC can occur, it also argues that government policy cannot have a beneficial impact upon the economy–all it can do is increase the rate of inflation.
The actual reasons for this belief are arcane, but this choice quote from leading neoclassicals Thomas Sargent and Neil Wallace puts the dominant neoclassical case in a nutshell:
In this system, there is no sense in which the authority has the option to conduct countercyclical policy. To exploit the Phillips Curve [a relationship between unemployment and inflation], it must somehow trick the public. But by virtue of the assumption that expectations are rational, there is no feedback rule that the authority can employ and expect to be able systematically to fool the public. This means that the authority cannot expect to exploit the Phillips Curve even for one period. Thus, combining the natural rate hypothesis with the assumption that expectations are rational transforms the former from a curiosity with perhaps remote policy implications into an hypothesis with immediate and drastic implications about the feasibility of pursuing countercyclical policy.’ (“Rational Expectations And The Theory Of Economic Policy”, Journal of Monetary Economics, Vol. 2 (1976) pp. 177-78; emphases added)
Whoops: suddenly in 2008, economists who believed that went straight into “Keynesian” pump-priming mode. They have become “born again Keynesians”–though their knowledge of Keynes is scant to say the least, since prior to 2009, neoclassical economists had driven all consideration of Keynes out of academic curricula.
Forecasts
Now that government action has saved the economy in the short term, the same economists who used to argue that it could do nothing of the sort are expecting the resumption of “business as usual” growth. Ed Lazear himself, in September 2009, was expressing (without much conviction) the view that it was feasible for the US economy to grow at 5% in 2010–on the basis that the data showed that “the bigger the fall, the higher the rebound”. A statistical argument to that effect formed part of his 2009 Report:
So far, the recovery is not going according to plan. What was initially seen as a strong sign that the V-shaped recovery was underway–the 3.5% growth rate in the September quarter–has since been revised down to a mere 2.2% growth. The initially estimated rate was just more than enough to make a dent in unemployment; the revision is still below the 3% level that is seen as being needed to keep unemployment from rising.
I base my forecasts, not on regressions, but what I regard as the underlying causal mechanisms in the economy, which are well captured in Minsky’s Financial Instability Hypothesis. The key factor here is the ratio of private debt to GDP, built up on the basis of an inherently cyclical economy, and overlaid by a financial system that has a strong tendency to fund “Ponzi” speculative behaviour rather than real investment.
On that basis, the real game of the GFC–deleveraging by the private sector–has only just begun in the USA (and has been delayed in Australia by government policy, as I discussed in my previous post). We are just at the peak of the biggest debt bubble in human history. It dwarfs the level of debt reached in the 1930s largely because conventional economists like Greenspan and Bernanke allowed a “natural” debt bubble that should have burst in 1987 to keep going for two more decades:
“Business as usual” growth since the end of WWII has been underwritten by a rising level of debt (right from 1945 in the USA’s case, and from the mid-1960s in Australia’s):
This was always going to lead to a crisis when the debt-financing load became too great, and the asset bubbles financed by this Ponzi Lending finally burst. The government rescues of 2009 have clearly re-ignited this bubble in the stock market, giving us the longest running and biggest bear market rally in history:
Whether that rally can continue–and “business as usual” growth resume in the real economy–is the moot point for 2010. The rally, though impressive, has still only taken the market back to 25 percent below its peak in early October 2007.
My expectation is that, some time during 2010, the disconnect between the financial markets’ euphoric expectations and the hard reality of a deleveraging private sector will bring the optimism of both “born again Keynesian” neoclassical economists and the markets to an end. Growth will not resume once the stimulus packages are removed, since deleveraging will then assert itself in the absence of government stimulus. Falling debt will subtract from growth, as it once added to it, and unemployment will start to rise again.
I expect that governments will react to this as they did in 2009–by turning on the stimulus packages once more, while continuing to ignore the private debt levels that caused the crisis in the first place. They will “turn Japanese”, to coin a phrase–since this is the same thing the Japanese government has been doing for two decades since its Bubble Economy burst at the end of 1989.
This process may repeat itself two or three times before serious attention is finally turned to the Ponzi-dominated financial sector’s parasitic impact on the real economy. But for now, the parasites are clearly still in control of the host.
That’s it for the serious stuff! Sydney is a great city in which to welcome in the New Year, and I’ll happily be doing that at a swish restaurant in Darling Harbour tonight. But before I go, here’s a quick personal retrospective on 2009.
Should old acquaintance be forgot…
Many thanks to the many bloggers who’ve joined the site (there are now over 3,000 members), and to the smaller number (about 50 I think) who regularly post comments. I’ve learnt a lot from following the debate, though the sheer volume and my “real job” work commitments get in the way of replying to all requests for feedback.
There are also a remarkable number of readers around the world: the site now has about 50,000 unique readers each month, with a substantial additional number following via RSS feeds. On New Year’s Day I’ll publish the final count for the number of readers, but the current tally (as of 9.39am on New Year’s Eve) is shown in the table below. It seems likely that December will set a new record of over 53,000 unique readers.
Toil and Trouble
It’s been a productive year for me in terms of research. Against all expectations, I managed to develop the monetary multisectoral model of production that has been an ambition for over a decade–under the pressure of a research grant from the CSIRO that had a very tight deadline. Early in the New Year I’ll post a pair of videos outlining both my model and the CSIRO’s biophysical model–I simply haven’t had time to do so as yet.
I’ve also published more than ten papers–a ridiculous tally for one year:
- (2009) “The “Credit Tsunami”: Explaining the inexplicable with debt and deleveraging”, in Friedman, G., Moseley, F. & Sturr, C., The Economic Crisis Reader, Dollars and Sense, New York, pp. 44-51.
- (2009), “The Global Financial Crisis, Credit Crunches and Deleveraging“, Journal Of Australian Political Economy, No 64, pp. 18-32.
- (2009), “The Confidence Trick”, The Australasian Accounting Business & Finance Journal, May, 2009.
- (2009), “Household Debt—the final stage in an artificially extended Ponzi Bubble”, Australian Economic Review, Vol. 42 No. 3, pp. 347-57.
- (2009). “Bailing out the Titanic with a Thimble”, Economic Analysis & Policy, Vol. 39 No. 1, pp. 3-24.
- (2010). “The coming depression and the end of economic delusion”, in Steven Kates (ed.),Macroeconomic Theory and its Failings: Alternative Perspectives on the Global Financial Crisis, Edward Elgar, Cheltenham, UK, pp. 127-142.
- (2009) “The dynamics of the monetary circuit”, in Jean-François Ponsot and Sergio Rossi (eds.), The Political Economy of Monetary Circuits: Tradition and Change, Palgrave, London, pp. 161-187.
- (2009), “Warum die Standard-Theorie des Unternehmens nicht mehr unterrichtet werden Darf”, in Luderer, B. (ed.), Die Kunst des Modellierens (The Art of Modelling), Vieweg+Teubner Verlag, Wiesbaden, pp. 179-194. (English draft here)
- (2009), “A pluralist approach to microeconomics”, in Reardan, J. (ed.), The Handbook of Pluralist Economics Education, Routledge, London, pp. 120-149.
- (2009), “Mathematics for pluralist economists”, in Reardan, J. (ed.), The Handbook of Pluralist Economics Education, Routledge, London, pp. 149-167.
- (2009), “Keynes’s ‘revolving fund of finance’ and transactions in the circuit”, in Wray, R. and Forstater, M., (eds.), Keynes and Macroeconomics after 70 Years, Edward Elgar, Cheltenham, pp. 259-278.
The 11th paper is awaiting referees’ reports (“Solving the Paradox of Monetary Profits“), but will be available as an online discussion paper on Monday January 4th in the new and very innovative journal Economics.
The number of conferences I’ve spoken at is even more ridiculous: 44 in all, about 33 of which were public seminars with the remainder being academic conferences.
I also wrote 10 new lectures for a new subject Behavioural Finance. I’ll add three more next year when I take the subject again in August 2010:
Behavioural Finance
- Reconsidering Consumer Behaviour (PDF)
- Reconsidering Producer Behaviour (PDF)
- Reconsidering Behaviour in Finance (PDF)
- How the Data Killed CAPM (PDF)
- The Fractal Markets Hypothesis (PDF)
- The Inefficient Markets Hypothesis (PDF)
- Experiments in Economic & Financial Behaviour (to be posted in 2010)
- The statistics on money and implications for finance and economics (PDF)
- The endogenous money perspective (PDF)
- Modelling Endogenous Money I (PDF)
- Modelling Endogenous Money II (PDF)
- The Global Financial Crisis (to be posted in 2010)
- Alternative nonlinear methods to model financial behaviour (to be posted in 2010)
New Year’s Resolutions
Some of these are necessities:
- Establish a blog for the walk from Parliament House to Kosciousko
Others are vital:
- Begin a discussion forum linked to Debtwatch
- Start solid work on my book Finance and Economic Breakdown for Edward Elgar Publishers
And some are easy to achieve, but hard to do:
- Spend less time on the blog so that I have more time for the book
The last task is hard to do because, of course, I enjoy this blog. But I spend too much time on it already, let alone with the added task of writing a book. But ultimately I have to provide a book-length treatment of Minsky’s theories (and the data of the GFC) if I’m going to help cause a permanent shift in economic theory and policy. So I have to force myself to spend less time on this blog.
Happy New Year everyone. 2010 looks like being just as exciting as was 2009.








Steve we may see some surprises in the numbers if governments start to change the way they stimulate the economy. For example here are some back of the envelope calculations on how to fund the National Broadband Network with personal debt increasing – but for productive purposes. (This sort of debt is good debt not bad debt. A bit like good cholesterol helps get rid of the problem caused by bad cholesterol)
The National Broadband Network is estimated to cost about $40 Billion dollars. If we have to pay interest on the $40Billion and repay the money in half the expected life of the asset then finance costs will take up 60% of the money earned from the asset.
However, if we gave everyone in Australia a $2000 interest free loan to buy shares in the NBN then each family of four would pay $600 per year to have telephone and broadband connections and would receive a dividend return of $250 per year for the first 40 years which would rise to $500 per year after 40 years.
In other words we can rejig finances so that the people who pay for goods and services get the profits from those goods and services (or lower prices) instead of the money being syphoned off to so called financial investors and services.
New public infrastructure that is financed through the banks transfers most of the future profits from that infrastructure to the financiers immediately – even though their only service is to supply the loan money – they take no risk on the money unless the State defaults.
I have seen estimates that the cost to the Australian Economy for Financial Services of this and similar mechanisms is of the order of 20%+ of our total economic activity. It should be about 1% max. for the value of the service it provides. Imagine what we can do with that amount of money if we put it to productive use. While it is technically simple to fix there will be considerable resistance from those who currently pocket the 19%.
However, if governments suddenly wake up and get rid of the advisors from the finance sector we could see 2010 play out in a different way from 1930.
Happy 2010 Steve,
Here’s a suggestion for you. Ever read “The Four-Hour Workweek” by Tim Ferris. It talks about time management tools/ideas to help you be more productive and have more free time. It’s the first book like this that’s NOT a scam.
What will your boss say about having an outsourcing assistant in India doing some of your research
? I’m not responsible…
Steve, I wonder id all us bloggers are on ASIO’s watchlist considering our constant criticism of the Reserve Bank and Government stimulus spending.
If we are , you can take that as a badge of honour.
Have been enjoying your site long enough that I thought it was time to “join” – appreciate your work and agree that governments (all over) will probably dump money into the system through two or three more financial crises before any real attempt at change is made. Wishing you a Healthy 2010 –
gary / canada
Thanks for all your efforts to educate us, the masses in 2009.
Best to you for the new year.
Hi Steve,
Happy new year!
Thanks for all the valuable info and insight. It makes a lot of sense to me.
ASX 200 will head towards 2700 support before heading lower. Whether the move below 2700 happens in 2010 or is delayed ’til 2011, that’s a coin toss IMO. There’s one prediction. Here’s a few more:
1. RBA will begin lowering rates again at some point in 2010.
2. Banks in Oz will find it very hard to roll debt and raise fresh debt in late 2010.
3. Panic and fear will return. The MSM will turn “negative” again.
4. Prudentsaver will come back to this site as a regular poster again. Old timers know what that means.
5. SMEs will continue to burn through their capital (in hope) heading towards oblivion in 2011.
One thing that the GFC has planted deeper than ever in the minds of ordinary Australians is that “buy and hold” is the only philosophy to live by. Whether they owned shares or houses, 2008 and 2009 convinced them that they should never sell. Always hold, prices will always come back. I expect this ideology to be wrenched away from people in 2010 or 2011. As this belief is shattered for a generation or two, the pain, anguish and personal blame will be horrible to watch.
on that note happy new year everyone!
Steve and fellow bloggers,
All the best for the New Year. BTB I hope you are wrong about 2010 but my gut says you are right.
The site stats tell the story. To paraphrase one of Max Keiser’s oft repeated phrases to Stacey, “Steve, tell the people”.
cscoxk — the NBN has no business case and none has been offered. Such a financing structure as you propose does not really solve the difficulty of its implementation. The only business value suggested is that government services underpinned by tax, not private business will, prosper and though that will be an economic result, it is not close the good cholesterol your metaphor indicates, nor over the time frame and in the technological structure expected.
Thanks to Steve and all for information, commentary and links.
Declaring Happy New Year seems ironic on this forum, but may everyone’s contrarion, positive and even pessimistic futures materialise in 2010
Steve,
Best wishes for the new year.
Chuck
Thank you Steve
I’m exhausted just READING all that you achieved for this year – ‘Toil and Trouble’!
I learn so much from this site, and I wish all the fellow bloggers and readers all the best for the coming year. The discussions have been so useful and enlightening and I’d especially mention BTB, bb, TITINT, Philip, angophera, mahaish (always a light touch!), debtjunkies, The Outback Oracle, Brightspark1, al49er…I could go on and on.
Cheers to all!
Bullturnedbear,
You might be interested in the following video of Bob Prechter. Bob Prechter is head of Elliott Wave International and has a good track record for getting it right. In the video made 5 Nov 2009 he states we are very near the market top and he expects a downward move at least as big as the last one. He his prediction is not only based on Elliott waves, but also on the high level of market confidence, which he sees as a contrarian indicator.
Personally, I think we might be there now. If you look at the AUD you will see it has already started to turn down, so it could be just a few more weeks or even days before the stockmarkets follow. The rounded tops that the stockmarkets are currently making will not make it obvious the markets have turned and will catch out a lot of people.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1319011626&play=1
Hi Steve and a happy new year, this is my fist post, it’s been fascinating reading your blog over the last few months, espcially with the effort you have gone to proving actual data and graphical information.
I have a question about the use of the Debt to GPD ratio. One can imagine at low interest rates, interest only loans or long loan periods that high dept isn’t a problem/stress indicator as long as you can service it. Dept could even be passed intergenerationally forever by persons/desendants or firms, as long as they earn an income forever. So that ratio without additional information, like your Debt/GDP vrs
interest real rate chart, doesn’t indicate possible tipping points. (I wonder do your models attempt to predict real interest rates and inflation? If so what’s the odds of our economy passing a tipping point in the next 5 years?)
Why not look at total loan/dept repayments to GDP, can one get data on that? Why wouldn’t such a ratio be more usefull than debt/GDP for showing financal stress or potential tipping points? Since it shows how much income is left for providing aggregate demand. If all we have left leaves us living off “bread and water” the ecomony is in for a serious self-reinforcing drop one would think.
For people interested in learning more about a future economics theory that actually explains reality, I can’t more strongly reccomend Eric D. Beinhocker “The Origin of Wealth: evolution, complexity and the radcal remaking of economics” 2006. An excellently written book on the past
and future of economics. It’s aimed at general readership so one doesn’t have to have formal economics training, and some of it is viewable on google books, so check it out. Also for a economics intro Paul Heyne “The Economic Way of thinking” and Samuel Bowles “Understanding Capitalism” are both great and actually a fun read!
I’m curious Steve, if you saw the crisis coming did you short the market like John Paulson (http://www.smh.com.au/business/thanks-a-billion-20080418-2749.html) did, and make $100,000′s? And if not why not?
Steve ,
I’ll miss your contributions to the blog , but if it means you get the new book done quicker , I’m all for it.
Post-mortems are informative , but don’t resuscitate the corpse. The global economy is in need of good diagnosticians now , while it still has a pulse.
Happy New DECADE to all !
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/credit-demand-slows-to-17-year-low-economists/story-e6frf7ko-1225815015200
Whilst business credit levels grind to a halt personal credit levels (namely home loans) keep rising! There is a serious misconnect here……or a natural lag?
Hi Jim,
Thanks mate, I do read what Prechter says. I have also read a few of his books.
Pr
Unfortunately Prechter has been saying to go increasingly short since September. We’ll see if or when Prechter is right in due course.
“Alan Gresley” “….John Howard gutting pubic education”
Now there is a quote on which to end 2009.
(P.S. also don’t forget John Dawkins!)
Cheers all.
Steve, last question for 2009. If governments undertake another round of stimulas again by borrowing, would this not increase interest rates. Reason being the high demand by governments for what limited funds are out there(ie high demand for money-limited supply of money forcing up rates).
Secondly, the increased risk investors of stimulas now face considering the failure of the first round of stimulas providing the bang for your buck that was originally promised. Surely investors who provide that stimulas money for goverments would now demand a higher interest rate considering the higher risk they now face.
Reserve Banks can do as they like with interest rates, but ultimately the market will price interest as we have just seen with Westpac.
Anyway, all the best for 2010 and para-phrasing Gough Whitlam, “May God save the Queen because nothing will save those neo-classicals”.
I’ve enjoyed following this site and Steve’s other work for a while now.
I watch MSM Fin commentators with incredulity these days as they happily ignore things like the debt to GDP and paint blueskys ahead forever as if there is not ever any limit to the amount of money that can be borrowed.
Here is a good article about the US debt problem.
http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/2009/12/december-30-2009-year-for-plan-b.html
Happy New Year
Yes Steve, happy new year to all comment posters.
The rally in the dollar and the problems for other currencies prove what we have been saying and that is all currencies will continue to fall vs. gold. The impetus for the dollar rally originates as usual with the government and is added to by the disarray in the economies worldwide, particularly in Europe. One of the things central banks have never learned is that financial engineering only works for a short duration, after that the problem worsens.
Even the world’s strongest currencies — the Swiss, Canadian, Aussie and Norwegian — are only holding their own versus gold. The reason why is almost all central banks have done the same thing and that is create money and credit recklessly at the behest of the US government.
The US and British financial systems are insolvent. The euro is under severe pressure, because of problems in Greece, Spain, Ireland, Portugal and Italy, and every other central bank is jockeying for position via competitive devaluation.
The public may not notice it but the situation is really chaotic. As you can see, the US is never allowed a level playing field, but that is part of what comes with being the international reserve currency. Banks in Britain, Europe and the US continue to take losses — sometimes severe losses.
There is no intermediation going on with the dollar. Its rally is founded on manipulation. I suspect in the future we will have an interesting phenomenon and that is a fall in the dollar, pound and the euro, as gold moves higher as the only viable alternative.
The world is going to be shocked when the euro collapses. It won’t happen overnight. It will take a year or two, but it has a good chance of happening. The US dollar cannot and will not for some time to come be a safe haven for wealth. That is because the dollar and the US economy have been deliberately destroyed.
The flight into gold that we have seen has not been sparked by anticipation of inflation, but by a flight caused by a lack of confidence and trust in central banks. If other major governments have monetary problems they cannot be buyers of US Treasuries. They will have to be sellers of dollars. That will drive the dollar lower, further reduce the demand for US funding, force the Fed to further monetise and create more inflation. That in turn drive the dollar lower, but more importantly it will give gold a life of its own.
There is going to be a devaluation of the dollar no matter what people think, or want to think in their world of denial and fantasy.
> RJW
Steve and all,
I think you will find your interview on BBC5 is actually 8PM London time. Which puts it at 7am Sydney time tomorrow morning with a repeat at 3pm (4am London time).
The program synopsis is here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/fivelive/
A direct link to the broadcast is here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pgpkc
I will post this also on the Max Keiser Blog topic also. Apologies to all if this has already been corrected.
Happy New Year Steve and all Debtdeflation readers and contributors.
As an old PK economist my best wishes for the new year.
I doubt that the year will be linear or easily predictable, there should be quite a few unexpected consequences, especially for heterodox economists.
Just about the only phrase I can consider a universal constant is the following from Heraclitus.
‘Nothing endures but change’
I look forward to seeing what unfolds. I am sure your analysis will provide the meat and veggies of what will happen in 2010. It is just that other factors will add some couscous to the meal!
Ref 21
Sorry — the links are ass about.
Steve,
congrats on a productive year, and thankyou for all of your efforts on this blog. (you should look into advertising on this site – could help pay for your research).
Happy new year
Steve,
A quick point on your post.
I think you should stop quoting this KRudd number. 18% of GDP of goverment stimulus over three years….bollocks (he wouldn’t be misquoting data to justify the goverments waste & stupidity, would he?).
The real stimulus number (sourced from the IMF) is around 1.4% for the G20 in 2009.
http://www.brookings.edu/reports/2009/03_g20_stimulus_prasad.aspx
Also, in the furture you should look at the performce of the Dow (1930 vs 2009) in terms of Gold. The rally this year has not been that good after adjusting for currency.
Steve and all,
Happy New Year everyone – what does not necessarily mean increasing consumption by sinking deeper into the debt. I believe that these who visited this site may have already learned enough to avoid certain traps in their personal life.
I hope that even in the worst case scenario the stability of the societies will not be endangered in the Western countries.
In my opinion the current formula of “blog” has been proven to be a great success. I am not so sure whether a forum with threads could actually win if this blog is enhanced with some indexing and a search facility. I know that discussion about certain topics currently goes in circles as new members join and some old drop off but if multiple separate threads are created then we may lose our focus.
An example of a successful and popular community forum (for white water and other “extreme” sports) is
http://www.adventurepro.com.au
but it simply serves a different purpose. I don’t think this formula would be much better than the current single stream of comments.
Steve, I believe that your time spent on running this blog and on educating people is not wasted. You will be vindicated here in Australia even it has to take a few more years. You will not have to extract money from internet adverts on this blog (just imagine mortgage brokers advertising on this page!)