One of the keynote speakers at the 38th Australian Conference of Economists in Adelaide last week was Edward Lazear, who was Chairman of the US President’s Council of Economic Advisers from 2006-09.
In other words, he was in one of the world’s economic hotseats right when the “Great Moderation” (see also Gerard Baker’s UK Times article in early 2007) gave way to the Global Financial Crisis.
It was far from the hottest such seat: Bernanke as Federal Reserve Chairman, and Henry Paulson as Treasury Secretary would have had much more uncomfortable backsides at the time. But Lazear signed off on the Economic Report of the President in 2007, 2008 and 2009, and was responsible for briefing the President on the economy for those three years (as his successor Christina Romer does today).
Lazears’ keynote speech gave a very good feel for the panic that was felt in the White House when the economy began to unravel in 2007, in strong contrast to the formal forecast in the 2007 Report:
The Administration’ s forecast calls for the economic expansion to continue in 2007 and beyond, although the pace of expansion is projected to slow somewhat from the stronger growth of recent years. The unemployment rate is projected to edge up slightly in 2007, while remaining below 5 percent. Real GDP growth is projected to continue at around 3 percent in 2008 and thereafter, while the unemployment rate is projected to remain stable and below 5 percent.
By the end of 2008, the unemployment rate was 7.2 percent. The prediction that unemployment would not reach 5 percent—and virtually every other official forecast by the Council of Economic Advisers (CEA) from 2007 on—was wildly wrong. The summary of forecasts from the January 2009 report (which uses data from as late as November 10 2008) is shown below.

Last week we learnt that the official OECD “U-3″ defined level of unemployment as of September 2009 was 9.8 percent—more than 2 percent higher than the CEA’s end-of-year-2009 forecast, made just over a year ago—and the much more realistic (but still incomplete) U-6 level was 17 percent.

Lazear’s speech gave a very good feel for the sheer panic that dominated decision making as the disastrous year of 2007 unfolded—and as an even more disastrous 2008 took its place. He also put forward his own interpretation of what caused the crisis, and what the prospects were for growth from now on.
He prefaced his remarks with the caveat that he wasn’t a macroeconomist: his specialty was wage setting and remuneration in general (this in itself is a sign of how complacent the government—and the economics profession—was at the time, by appointing someone to this key position whose speciality was not macroeconomics). So working from his grounding in conventional neoclassical macroeconomics that he shares with most US economists, he reasoned that:
- The underlying cause of the US crisis was the high level of Chinese savings; and
- The US economy was likely to grow very quickly in the near future.
The logic for the first point went like this. Because Chinese savings were extraordinarily high, Chinese financial institutions had lots of money to invest. As well as investing in Chinese industry, they also invested in American bonds. This encouraged an increased supply of risky bonds, and drove down the spread between them—especially those for Subprime mortgages—and safe bonds. That in turn fuelled the Subprime boom, and hey presto, crisis.
The logic for the second was that post-WWII experience has shown that the deeper a recession, the stronger the recovery from it. So since this downturn had been so steep, a strong recovery was likely: he tipped a real growth rate of as high as 5 percent for 2010.
Lazear got little disagreement on these points from the other almost exclusively neoclassical economists at the conference—not necessarily because they thought his argument was correct, but because they had no viable alternative argument as to why this crisis had begun.
Needless to say I disagreed with both these arguments. We debated these points, both in a question from the floor and in a good discussion that Lazear initiated with me on this topic during the pre-dinner drinks. The discussion was unfortunately ended when Lazear had to take his allocated seat. This Debtwatch outlines what I would have told him, had we had the chance to continue the conversation.
Reverse causation
Lazear’s proposition that excessive Chinese savings caused the financial crisis is straight out of the neoclassical macroeconomics textbook, which portrays the financial sector as the means by which those with excess funds from savings lend to those with insufficient funds, thus financing the investment the debtors wish to undertake. The Chinese save lots, so they have the excess funds; the Americans were dis-saving, so they had to borrow the funds they needed for investment (or rather rampant speculation) from elsewhere.
The first problem with this argument, which Lazear acknowledged in his speech, was that the textbook would have predicted that America would be the saver and China the borrower. America is supposed to be the mature economy with high incomes, high savings, and less opportunities for a high return on capital, while Chian is supposed to be the developing economy with lower incomes, lower savings, and many opportunities for a high return on capital.
But the real problem with the textbook argument is that its cause and effect relations are, to put it bluntly, “arse about tit”.
The textbook argues that savings must occur first before investment can occur—and since the poor Chinese happen to be good savers, while the rich Americans are lousy savers, the financial flows went from China to the USA. So the US crisis is all China’s fault.
In fact, the action in a credit-driven economy begins with the lender: lending creates the money which—once spent by the borrower—turns up in other people’s bank accounts. The actual causal sequence that gave us the GFC was therefore:
- American lenders lent to Americans to finance the housing and stock market bubbles, and copious purchases of consumer goods as well as Americans falsely believed their wealth was growing as house and share prices skyrocketed;
- These American borrowers spent large slabs of this borrowed money on imported Chinese goods;
- The Chinese recipients of this American spending racked up a large surplus of US dollars, which added to Chinese foreign currency reserves;
- Some of these reserves were used to purchase US assets, including Subprime bonds but also government bonds, equities, and other financial assets around the world.
So the problem began, not with Chinese saving, but with American lending. The huge foreign exchange surpluses accumulated by the BRICs, Japan and to some extent Europe began in the profligate lending of the American financial system during its latest and greatest Ponzi bubble. They are a symptom of the problem, but not its cause.
This argument is commonplace in the Post Keynesian school of economic thought—but foreign to Neoclassical thinking, which still makes the mistake of imagining that credit money is no different to a commodity money system (like gold) where you can’t lend until you after you have accumulated a stock of that commodity.
In fact, in a credit system lenders can and do create money simply by the double-entry book-keeping process of creating a loan and a deposit at the same time, as I explained in the “Roving Cavaliers of Credit” post. The failure of neoclassical economics to realise this is one of the major reasons why they don’t understand the economy. Instead they have a model that might be of some assistance to a tribal marketplace in the New Guinea highlands (or of some relevance to a medieval fair), but which bears no relation to our modern credit-based economy.
Dead Cat Bounce
Lazear’s hope that the economy would bounce back from the Great Recession (as it’s now being described) was shared by the vast majority of economists at the conference. The basis of the hope was simply historical experience, where “history” meant “what has happened since World War II”.
The chart below, taken from the 2009 CEA Report, shows the pattern that Lazear, and most “green shoots” neoclassical economists are relying upon: the deeper the recession, the bigger the boom afterwards.

Even this looks far from reassuring—an R-squared of 0.39 leaves a lot unexplained. But there are also other patterns in this data.
While growth did rebound to well above average in the immediate aftermath of most post-WWII recessions, this is truer of early post-WWII recessions than the later ones—and it has only barely been true for the last two recessions. In fact, after the 2000 recession, growth barely popped above the long term average, spent most of the period since the recession below the average, and was trending down even before this recession officially began.
The time trend is more obvious when the dates of the recessions are replaced with the number of years ago they ended (using 2010 as my reference point, so the 57-58 recession ended 52 years before 2010). The big slump-big boom pairs tend to occur earlier whereas the more recent ones are smaller, AND the older ones are tend to be above the curve while the more recent ones are below. So this simple linear regression obscures a time trend in the data.

There has also been a substantial fall in the average rate of growth over time—something the above chart can’t show, but which is apparent in the one below. Between 1950 and 1970, when Lazear’s rule of thumb clearly applied, the average rate of growth was a very robust 4.27 per cent. Since then, when the rule of thumb clearly weakened, the average has fallen to below 3 per cent.

Clearly the US economy was already pretty sick before this crisis broke out: the pattern that Lazear and most neoclassical economists are relying upon had already died. The only thing it appears well suited to doing is growing debt and financial crises—which brings me to my final comment on Lazear’s speech.
Popcorn on the Oven
As any regular reader of Debtwatch knows, I am no stranger to analogies: I’m always looking for some parable that will tell an economic tale more accessibly than a straight-faced description of a model or a set of data. Lazear showed that he was a fair hand at analogies too, with his description of the “Popcorn model” of the financial crisis that he said he advocated while in office.
Others, he told us, subscribed to the “Domino” theory of financial contagion, which was that the financial system was like a set of dominoes: if one fell over, the whole lot could fall over, but if they were all kept upright, none would fall. So all the effort went into ensuring that each merchant bank that got into difficulty was rescued, in the belief that this would stop the others from failing.
Lazear instead used the analogy of popcorn: if you put corn in a frying pan, and remove each one that pops, that doesn’t stop others from popping afterwards.
I liked the analogy, and ran with it in a question. I pointed out that you can’t pop corn without turning the heat on, the heat is private debt, and despite everything else they’ve done to contain the crisis, the one thing American authorities haven’t done yet is to turn the oven off.

The corn is still a-poppin’ as a result, as the most recent employment data from the USA confirmed. The scale of the crisis is still greater than any post-WWII recession, and comparable still to the Great Depression, despite the widespread spin to the contrary. This chart shows the levels of unemployment relative to the start of its increase in the Great Depression, this recession, and the deepest post-WWII downturn to date, the 1979-82 slump (which was a “W-shaped” downturn).

One reason why the USA has not managed to arrest the increase in unemployment, whereas the Australian government’s stimulus packages have to date kept unemployment in check (though hours worked and incomes are falling), could be simply the much greater aggregate level of debt in the USA.
Another is that Australia’s stimulus package was mainly given to households, whereas the US has put the mass of its funds into the financial sector in the mistaken “money multiplier” belief that this will give more “bang for the buck”. As I noted in this post, a dynamic model of the economy indicates that that belief is mistaken, and Australia’s approach of giving its stimulus to the debtors rather than the creditors was far more effective.
Another not particularly good reason is the far greater rate at which the US private sector is deleveraging, and the fact that some Australian government policies—notably the First Home Vendors Boost—have encouraged households to return to leveraging up. Using Lazear’s extended analogy above, we are avoiding a crisis by turning the over temperature up.
Other reflections on the conference
I usually don’t go to the Economists Conference, because it is dominated by neoclassical economists, and I know neoclassical economics far too well to take it seriously. Conversely, neoclassical economists are virtually unaware that there is any other way of thinking about the economy, take their own fallacious methodology far too seriously, and ignore papers written by mavericks like me.
If I had presented this paper at a conference in, say, 2006, there would have been virtually no attendees at the session, while any neoclassicals who did show up would have vigorously objected to the fact that I didn’t assume optimising behaviour, or efficient finance markets, or the like.
Not this time however. My session was packed (as was every session on the financial crisis—and there were strikingly few of them), and the audience included Robert Shimer, the editor of the Journal of Political Economy—which despite its name is one of the most conservative and neoclassically dominated economic journals on the planet. He apparently advised Lazear to speak to me after my session (which Lazear couldn’t attend)—so maybe some chinks are opening up in the neoclassical citadel.
END OF COMMENTARY
Table One

Table Two













October 4th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
“Last week we learnt that the official OECD “U-3? defined level of unemployment as of September 2009 was 9.8 percent—more than 2 percent higher than the CEA’s end-of-year-2009 forecast, made just over a year ago—and the much more realistic (but still incomplete) U-6 level was 17 percent.”
If U-6 is 17% but not a complete measure, what should the unemployment rate really be? Is there a better measure?
October 4th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
“So the problem began, not with Chinese saving, but with American lending. The huge foreign exchange surpluses accumulated by the BRICs, Japan and to some extent Europe began in the profligate lending of the American financial system during its latest and greatest Ponzi bubble. They are a symptom of the problem, but not its cause.”
It’s actually terrifying to realize that most of the economics profession has no understanding of how the banking system actually operates – i.e. with the causality as you describe it, domestically and internationally. It was only by accident that I stumbled upon the PK’s, thankfully. There’s no way anyone can understand economics without getting this stuff right first. That puts the “differences” between Chartalism and Circuitism into perspective, given the relative exclusiveness and greater importance of this more common ground.
October 4th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Precisely. That’s why I invited Bill Mitchell to post here: even if there are differences within the PK camp, it’s best to keep them in perspective.
October 4th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
U-6 excludes various types of “not working”–including I believe students who have finished education but haven’t yet found a job between the end of semester and the start of the new academic year, and some categories of discouraged workers as well.
The best measure overall is the ratio of those in full-time employment to total population between some threshold ages–say 15-65.
October 4th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Some more points to add to this:
In the States, many areas (CA. being one) are issuing IOU’s to pay some state employeees. Teachers and others in key areas are being cut. And, the number of people leaving there is growing.
The real unemployment rate is almost 20%. In some cities (and in some groups) it’s at least 25%.
You’re starting to see more laid off/homeless people on street corners.
Word is if Congress finally comes up with a “health reform bill”, it will be so watered down that it’ll be essentially pointless to sign into law.
Obama wants to maintain wars in Iraq, Afghanistan. And the tought talk re: Iran continues as well. How is he going to pay for all of that if the Chinese and others stop buying govt. debt?
One severe part of the Global Depression: decimated mental health services. FYI: For those that need it, there’s no national suicide prevention network. There’s no national PTSD help network. In some areas, crisis centers are being closed. On some help lines, they’re actually turning people away. Or, if they DO talk to them, you’re given 10 minutes.
In many States, things such as acne, spouse abuse and PTSD are considered “pre-existing conditions.” For single policies, insurance companies can deny you coverage. Or, they can give it to you. And THEN deny or cancel you for the stupidest reasons. Usually they claim fraud on your part for not disclosing a “pre-existing” condition. The State Insurance Commission is a complete joke and will do nothing. Which then means it’s a battle of who can hold out the longest.
While unions have lots of benefits, many are still seeing their benefits (including health care) being eroded away. Despite that, some of the most powerful(Screen Actors Guild/AFTRA being one) continue to keep theirs.
Despite all of the above happening, there’s still no UNIFIED front to push the govt to change. Instead, it’s still various groups/egos all battling for air time and donations. Michael Moore’s new flick “Capitalism: A Love Story” will open nationwide this weekend. And naturally, he’s trying to channel this group anger into massive profits for him.
While I like him and have no problem with him (or making money), I think he’s kidding himself if he thinks that this film will be the “tipping point.” I’m sure he’ll get lots of great soundbites to market this film. But will people continue beyond that?
Right now, I don’t think so. Instead, it’s going to be the uaual call-it-in attitude. People will ring up their favorite talkback host and bitch away about this. Then, they’ve done their part. Now it’s time to go home and make dinner.
Why won’t they act? Because that’s a “French thing” to do? (And we all know how some here feel about the French). Is it only something that a banana republic does? And of course we’re way above that.
How big is the gap between the haves and have nots in Australia? I saw an article recently on the number of rich Americans who have overseas homes. If the worst happens, how much do you wanna bet that they’ll be some of the first to leave? On the one hand you could say that’s a natural reactions and no big deal. Then again, what about those who can’t leave (for whatever reason)? Does Australia have an equivalent of the Patriot Act?
As many countries also deal with a global depression, this means protectionism and tighter immigration controls. I heard that some Australians who emigrated to the U.K. lost those jobs. They then came back and checked with their former employers. And were then told, sorry mate. But the economy sucks here as well.
The good news? I’m almost completely debt free.
October 4th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
[...] More: Debtwatch No. 39 October 2009: In the Dark on Cause and Effect [...]
October 4th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
It seems that a good portion of countries are in debt, both private and public. (US, Japan, etc) Who is actually financing this debt? For the US alone, 300% GDP ~ $30 Trillion, it can’t all be from China and Dubai, where is the money coming from?
Also, I think it would be interesting to see a historical chart of the net worth of the US stock market minus all public/private debt. If anyone has a link for it, please post.
October 4th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Completely agree that loans create deposits, but in discussing the foreign account, there is a crucial step missing here, which is that the foreign exporters did not let the currencies adjust, but chose to recycle those dollars by buying U.S. debt.
If it were not America, but Australia, then as the Australian dollar is not legal tender either in the BRICs/Japan, the exporters would need to re-convert their earnings back into their native currency prior to repatriating it, and in the process, an a priori nominal export surplus would be sterilized with a currency adjustment. In the same way, if Australians want to buy Chinese goods, they can’t use Australian dollars to do so, but must first buy RMB in the currency markets. This, in theory, would prevent any nation from having a long-run currency-adjusted surplus with any other nation.
But for some reason, the U.S., and to a lesser degree, the Eurozone, has a target painted on its back, namely that our currency has “reserve” status, and can be used to buy non-domestic output directly.
This causes a game to played in which countries accumulate dollar reserves as part of something that can only be described as a national psychopathic episode:
The Chinese would rather sail the seven seas to sell an American a pair of eyeglasses frames than to pay enough money to their own workforce so that those frames could be worn on Chinese noses.
And the Chinese government would rather print up 1.5 GDPs worth of RMB to sterilize dollar inflows — causing massive domestic inflation — when instead it could print 1/3 as much and ensure that Chinese workers can afford to buy their own output. For some reason, you need an American passport to buy the output of Chinese labor.
In a fiat era in which sovereign nations are currency issuers, the only reason why a country would run a long-run currency-adjusted trade surplus with any other country is an explicit policy of domestic wage suppression in order to benefit a well-connected group of export-oligarchs.
October 4th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
RSJ,
“In a fiat era in which sovereign nations are currency issuers, the only reason why a country would run a long-run currency-adjusted trade surplus with any other country is an explicit policy of domestic wage suppression in order to benefit a well-connected group of export-oligarchs.”
What?
Please read this document (it is not very up-to-date but will explain a lot):
http://iaps.cass.cn/english/articles/showcontent.asp?id=1127
Table 2.4.2 year 1997 Gross Domestic Saving = 43%, Investment = 38%
China is developing and building future wealth not consuming. They know that the era of cheap commodities will very soon be over.
They are not yet another Western country like America.
October 4th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
…more on this, a bit newer article
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2009-01/07/content_7375620.htm
“Economists estimated China’s savings rates (the percentage of savings in a person’s disposable income) remained between 30 percent and 40 percent over the years.”
“Zhang Yuyan, an international economics expert from the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS), said a major cause of the crisis was the unchecked business operations of US financials in which the banks repackaged mortgages, including sub-prime, into investment products and sell to financial institutions worldwide.
He also said it was illogical to blame China’s high savings rate and purchase of US treasuries for low US interest rates kept by the Federal Reserve under former chairman Alan Greenspan.”
The Americans should not have blown the bubble in the first place – this is what Steve has written – blaming the Chinese for giving them the opportunity is at least incorrect.
October 4th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
“a major cause of the crisis was the unchecked business operations of US financials in which the banks repackaged mortgages, including sub-prime, into investment products and sell to financial institutions worldwide”. Isn’t Mac Bank one of the earliest operators?
October 4th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
I don’t believe the MSM view of Mac Bank either. Their business is built on a foundation of debt that endlessly rolls and grows.
Disclosure. I have a small short Mac Bank position.
October 4th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
A.K.,
Having a high gross domestic investment rate relative to other countries, in and of itself, is nothing to be proud of — it merely says that your local industry is less productive.
For example, take country A, which “invests” 10% and consumes 90%. What that means is that for every dollar invested, it is able to generate $9 of consumption output. Now a less developed country that has 1/3 the productivity will have a investment/consumption ratio of 3 to 6.
In other words, as a country becomes more productive, the investment rate necessarily goes down in proportion to the consumption rate. It is not a point of pride to have to invest a high proportion of your GDP to generate a given level of consumption, it means that you are grossly inefficient.
One difference is in exports. In that case, you can be productive, but still cheat your domestic population out of the benefits of that added productivity by suppressing yur local wages and forcing that output to be sent overseas. That is the only other way for for a nation to have a high investment/consumption ratio — to deny their local population the ability to consume their own output.
You need to realize that we are not on the gold standard, in which a yellow bit of metal is needed to motivate someone to work. When you export a shoe without getting something equivalent in return, it is as if you set fire to the shoe and replaced it with your local currency. In other words — inflation. That is why China has been having 8% a year growth and 8% a year inflation. At the peak of the bubble, the country had 25% a year food inflation. That’s a pretty big hit to the 55% of the nation that lives in the countryside and lives on less than $50 a month.
So the only way to get real growth — to truly raise the standard of living of the population, is to make sure that they are paid enough to buy their own output. And that requires the investment/consumption ratio to fall in response to growing productivity. If that ratio rises or stays flat, then it means the people are being cheated out of consuming what they produce. China is filled with young girls working in factories that are not able to buy anywhere near half the output that they produce. That is what is required for your ratio to be as high as it is, and it’s nothing to be proud of.
I hope you don’t believe that is necessary to be too poor to afford your own consumption in order to gain technical knowledge. It is possible to become more productive and still be able to buy your own output. So you don’t need to set fire to those shoes, you can learn how to make shoes and use those skills to shod your own population, rather than to provide shoes for Americans, and be left barefoot.
That investment/consumption ratio is a great shame to the Chinese and a sign of the corruption inherent in that country. A small, well-connected export oligarchy — primarily communist party members, has found a way to suppress domestic wages and prevent a productive population from being able to consume their own output. It’s a national tragedy, and not something to view as a source of pride.
October 4th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Robin Eschler and T. De Paoli. T. De Paoli said: Debtwatch No. 39 October 2009: In the Dark on Cause and Effect …: In fact, after the 2000 recession, growth b.. http://bit.ly/Areux [...]
October 4th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
RSJ,
Let me quote again the relevant fragment:
“Having a high gross domestic investment rate relative to other countries, in and of itself, is nothing to be proud of — it merely says that your local industry is less productive.
For example, take country A, which “invests” 10% and consumes 90%. What that means is that for every dollar invested, it is able to generate $9 of consumption output. Now a less developed country that has 1/3 the productivity will have a investment/consumption ratio of 3 to 6.
In other words, as a country becomes more productive, the investment rate necessarily goes down in proportion to the consumption rate. It is not a point of pride to have to invest a high proportion of your GDP to generate a given level of consumption, it means that you are grossly inefficient.”
This reasoning is incorrect I think. Productivity (of capital) is the ratio of output to input.
http://www.investorwords.com/3876/productivity.html
It is not the same as the return on investment which measures how much additional output will be generated when deferred consumption is used to increase production. Also called rate of return.
http://www.investorwords.com/4037/rate_of_return.html
http://www.investorwords.com/2599/investment.html
Now if we take marginal productivity (which is essentially the delta output divided by delta of input or rather a derivative) there is a theory which says that it should be equal to rate of return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_product
So not productivity (output/input) but marginal productivity (d output/d input) is supposed to be equal to the rate of return. You cannot infer your productivity from the rate of return. There is one more issue. The marginal productivity theory itself is incorrect what has been mentioned in Steve’s Debunking book. The free version (I have to admit that I gave up reading after a while) is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_capital_controversy
I am not entirely convinced that the convoluted reasoning why the Chinese have to invest less and consume more in order to achieve real growth (what growth do they have now?) really makes sense. What if their strategy is better simply because it works?
There are more points which I don’t agree with but I’ll leave it for now.
October 4th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
Steve
Thanks for a great report, confirming my own decision not to go to such useless conferences. I used to read econometrics papers: ARCH, GARCH etc., until I realized that they don’t tell you anything about economics at all. They are about mathematical statistics to allow academics to write heaps of research papers on mathematical techniques to get promotions. The fact that they add nothing to economics is abundantly proved by Chart 1-9 on recessions and recoveries.
The chart is staggering in its implications, including the glaring proof that we have made no real progress in economics for the past century. If you had given the same data to Frank Knight or Maynard Keynes at the beginning of the twentieth century, they would have known how to use the simplistic linear regression method of Edward Lazear to correlation pre and post recession growth rates. Keynes would have rejected its predictions with the comment: “It is dangerous to apply to the future inductive arguments based on past experience unless one can distinguish the broad reasons for what it was”, (1925, Review of Common Stocks as Long Term Investments, Edgar Lawrence Smith).
To seriously show Chart 1-9 as his method of prediction, without any shame or apology, Edward Lazear has shown just how low is the intellectual standard of mainstream economics.
October 4th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
RSJ,
Re: your very good comment # 8
Yes, the US situation reflects its ability to export dollar fiat.
And the Chinese saving surplus reflects the determination of their central bank to manage the exchange rate and to enforce a substantial level of marginal Chinese saving through the current account as a result. Although Chinese reserve accumulation has gone far past the point where the purpose is for reserves per se. The purpose is clearly to support exports, with collateral effect in terms of net saving through the current account.
I think the important point regarding causality is that the US does not “rely” on foreign capital inflows. The fiat system creates those capital inflows as soon as it provides the required raw material in terms of gross flows outward bound through the current account. From there, the Chinese essentially determine the net balance as a result of the combined effect of their exchange rate pricing policy and their concomitant intervention policy.
So the US does not “rely” on capital inflows or on the savings of the foreign sector. The reliance stops as soon as the dollars are exported from the US. The only reliance operative is the choice that the Chinese make to accept US fiat currency in exchange for their exports. From there on, there is no dollar availability problem as far as the US is concerned. And that’s the case regardless of whether China wants to hold on to dollars or get rid of them. They can’t get rid of them unless they find another foreign buyer for the dollar as an asset or unless they find buyers in the US for dollars in exchange for goods and service through the current account. Pricing of those flows is another issue of interest to all, but that is no different than is the case of pricing domestic fiat.
The neoclassicals utterly fail to distinguish properly between the (illusory) aspect of the “availability” of flows and the pricing of those flows.
P.S.: question from non-Australia: does Australia generally pay for imports from China in RMB or in USD or in AUD? I would have guessed USD.
October 5th, 2009 at 12:45 am
“Housing disaster looms if rates rise”
“THE Reserve Bank of Australia made headlines a few days ago by saying that it was wary of a blow-out in housing prices. It is, of course, laying the ground for a rise in interest rates. It really amazes me that after seven years of stagnation in Australian housing prices, one or two quarters of very modest price rises are enough to make the RBA cry “bubble”.
Of course nothing could be further from the truth. I can tell you from our own sales, that from the minute the RBA started talking about raising rates, buyers got nervous.”-Harry Triguboff is chairman and managing director of Meriton Apartments.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,26164175-643,00.html
It looks like the headwinds to rising property prices have picked up a notch or two.
October 5th, 2009 at 1:08 am
One further difference between the U.S. and Australia (and a lot of other countries)that might explain the greater fall in employment is that while the federal government here has made dramatic counter-cyclical fiscal expenditures and tax cuts, state and local governments are cutting services and raising taxes. Our state sales tax is up 25%-40% (125-200 bps), and our property tax up 5%. All sorts of business fees, tuition at state universities, etc, are rising. And job cuts at the local level are often severe. And in spite of this, our state governor just announced a new budget shortfall.
A big chunk of the multi-year $780B stimulus package is funneled through states, e.g., nearly all the infrastructure spending. What is happening is that states are using money sent to increase construction to merely maintain a lower level of construction so they can shift money to other parts of their budgets.
So an awful lot of the stimulus here is not acting to counter a fall in private spending, but merely mitigating a fall in total public spending.
That’s not to say it’s failing, because it would have been much worse to not augment the state budgets.
October 5th, 2009 at 1:25 am
A different perspective on US unemployment;
http://econompicdata.blogspot.com/2009/10/hours-worked-per-person-tailspin.html
October 5th, 2009 at 1:35 am
@GSM
“Of course nothing could be further from the truth.”
The value of Australian housing is inflated due to the rental crisis that has lasted for well over a decade. If there was no rental crisis, then investment in housing would not be as profitable but like the madness of what is modern economics, the investment in housing (for renting) is also causing the rental crisis to continue. It’s a self sustaining bubble.
The Australian housing bubble will continue until the Greatest Depression begins. This happens when the world sees this as madness.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
October 5th, 2009 at 1:55 am
@Pause
“It seems that a good portion of countries are in debt, both private and public. (US, Japan, etc) Who is actually financing this debt? For the US alone, 300% GDP ~ $30 Trillion, it can’t all be from China and Dubai, where is the money coming from?”
The debt is created out of thin air. A very important factor is the practice of fractional reserve banking that expands the money supply.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking
If the to big to fail banks were not bailed out last year, then there would have been a rush on the banks and in turn this would have exposed the banking cartel’s true toxicity to the world.
October 5th, 2009 at 6:41 am
UK media are reporting that home prices here have returned to pre-lehman levels. I’m finding the disconnect here between UK and US house prices rather puzzling. Certainly the volume of sales is still low, people are hanging on, but I still don’t think this expains the differences with the US.
Any ideas?
October 5th, 2009 at 6:56 am
Well blow me down, the UK Financial Times, has an article ending on a decidedly chartalist note:
“The big error of the current discussion is to confuse the budget balances of individuals and companies with the government budget balance, which needs to be in deficit so long as attempted savings exceed perceived investment opportunities. Gordon Brown more or less understands this, and I wish he would use his talents to explain such fundamentals instead of stirring up an outdated class war. ”
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4679c2be-aed0-11de-96d7-00144feabdc0.html
October 5th, 2009 at 7:32 am
Over the past few years I have attempted to get equity to build a business. Most of the equity has come from my own savings and the business is now close to break even with excellent growth prospects. We have contracts with major banks and other listed companies. Our business model is a transaction model where we get income when others sell. Our product is embedded in other’s systems so once a client starts to use our product they tend to stay with us.
I am telling all this because our business is low risk, with high profit potential. You would expect it to be easy to get investment funds to expand the business. It is but the price is unacceptable. We have been to private investors and VCs and the terms of investment are typically.
300% IRR over three years and if we do not meet our target of 300% in the first year they want the whole company.
The reason? There is so little money available for investment in new assets and there are so few people able to invest because of the regulations around equity investing that people who supply money for equity do not set their price by any risk calculation but by what they think the buyer will pay.
It is not possible to get loan money for assets that do not yet exist and so it is necessary to get equity from savings. Most people with savings would rather put their money into a stock market (existing assets) than buy a future asset. It is easier to do and it appears to be less risky.
Needless to say we will not accept the terms of the VCs and we will look elsewhere for funds or we will curtail our rate of expansion and grow organically. Fortunately it appears we will get the funds we need from the banks (but in a convoluted way not a loan that they cannot give) and we are in talks with overseas investors.
We are not an isolated case. Many of my associates who are builders of productive assets have the same if not worse trouble raising funds for expansion and most have ended up getting overseas investors – and yet it is easy for us to wander in to a bank and mortgage my house at very low rates.
From my perspective the problem and the solution are obvious. Money to buy existing assets is cheap. Money to build new productive assets is expensive. What if we reversed the equation and made money to build new productive assets cheaper than money to buy existing assets? What if we separated the risk of new assets not succeeding through insurance on the money rather than putting the risk cost into the money costs. Why not get the government to provide the insurance as they do now with guaranteed bank deposits.
To this end I am advocating zero interest loans to build productive assets while requiring the loans to be repaid from the cash flows generated by the assets.
View this link that outlines a proposal to the ACT government. http://stableproductivemoney.wordpress.com/2009/10/02/energy-sustainability-for-the-act/
I would appreciate any feedback and questions that people might have.
I will be running a workshop at the upcoming green new deal conference http://greeninstitute.org.au/gnd/ In the workshop people will participate in or create their own business plans to attract investors who have access to money from zero interest loans. It will be interesting to see just how good the investments are if the cost of finance is made near zero.
It is my belief that this approach of directing loan money towards new productive assets instead of towards existing assets will not only solve many intractable social issues but has the potential to make an efficient money market.
October 5th, 2009 at 7:42 am
“The failure of neoclassical economics to realise this is one of the major reasons why they don’t understand the economy. Instead they have a model that might be of some assistance to a tribal marketplace in the New Guinea highlands (or of some relevance to a medieval fair), but which bears no relation to our modern credit-based economy.” Oh good! We are being prepared for the post-carbon society which the Saudi prince has been predicting. He has been saying that his father rode a camel, he is flying a jet (or driving a car?), and his son will ride a camel. Isn’t that the same theme as the snowy river scene at the 2000 Sydney Olympics? Anyone wanting to experience first hand how Australians will live in 5 to10 years time is advised to attend the Granny Smith Festival (Ryde City’s medieval fair? No). There you expect to experience first hand how Australians lived in the 19th century. Yes, we have gone over the peak and just started going down the downward slope of Marion King Hubbert’s bell shape curve. I wonder if I should start a horse-breeding business right now. The regret is of course, we will never learn what life should have been under a truly modern economy.
October 5th, 2009 at 8:10 am
The Wikipedia article about fractional reserve banking is partially incorrect as it is based on the myth of the money multiplier.
here it is described what is wrong:
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/
this article presents critique of the money multiplier from a different angle:
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=1623
October 5th, 2009 at 8:13 am
almost everything written (and put into internet videos) about fractional reserve banking is wrong!
October 5th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Hi Steve,
When’s the next podcast coming out?
October 5th, 2009 at 10:21 am
I just stumbled upon this abstract and thought I would suggest adding the author’s name to the list of economists , Steve being the one we know best , who ” Saw It Coming ” :
Anastasia Nesvetailova
THE LOGIC OF NEOLIBERAL FINANCE AND GLOBAL FINANCIAL FRAGILITY: TOWARDS ANOTHER GREAT DEPRESSION?
2004
Abstract:
The article provides a comparative critique of the financial underpinnings of the Great Depression of the 1930s and the recent wave of financial crises. The collapse of the financial systems in many developing nations, the bankruptcies in the Anglo-Saxon corporate sectors and a threat of more sovereign defaults on behalf of emerging markets suggest that the current wave of global financial fragility and recession rivals that of the Great Depression of the 1930s. The paper examines key elements that account for the crisis-prone nature of global capitalism: the political discipline of neo-liberalism, debt-driven expansion of the privatised financial markets, and the profound disarticulation of the financial and real economies. These factors suggests that the risk of a global depression is by no means hypothetical, and unless effective and collaborative efforts are made to tame the inherently unstable regime of global finance, even major world economies are faced with a prolonged period of financial turbulence and economic stagnation. The paper concludes by pondering the possibility of a paradigmatic shift in the transnational political consensus that can prevent a global repetition of the 1930s. While the increased awareness of financial instability and crisis may indeed prompt some ad hoc adjustments in national and foreign economic policies of major capitalist powers, in the long run these measures will be insufficient to prevent a major financial and economic disaster.
…….
I’d say she nailed it pretty good in ‘04.
Here’s a link to her list of pubs:
http://www.city.ac.uk/intpol/Staff/Nesvetailova.html
October 5th, 2009 at 10:39 am
ak@47 “here it is described what is wrong:
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit”
here you are dumbo, i’ve been looking for you all this time!
October 5th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Dear Steve,
In an article today in The Australian, property developer Harry Triguboff claims that a 2% rise in interest rates would result in a 40% increase in mortgage payments.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,26164175-30538,00.html
Considering that banks are tightening lending standards, what is the expected decrease in home value for every 10% increase in mortgage payments?
How much and how fast do you expect interest rates to rise to reach normal levels and what is the “normal” interest rate? What is the expected impact on variable rate mortgage payment amounts for every 1% increase in interest rates?
October 5th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
AK,
I wasn’t trying to make a growth theory argument, but if you want to look at this in terms of growth theory, then let K be the capital stock, measured by it’s market price. The rate of increase is net investment (investment net of depreciation), so that you have:
I = dK/dt
I/K = 1/K dK/dt
I/O * O/K = g
s = g*k
where s is the (net) savings rate, g is the logarithmic growth rate of the capital stock, and k is the capital-output ratio.
Moreover, in most advanced countries — and this includes China, g is constant or slowly falling.
Now, in a non-bubble situation, the growth rate of capital must be the GDP growth rate, otherwise you are talking about huge P/E multiples. Of course, it will oscillate around the gdp growth rate over the business cycle and with changes in market sentiment. (1)
By productivity, I am talking about labor productivity, or real output per hour worked. An increase in labor productivity means that output increases above and beyond an increase in the price of the capital stock — labor productivity tends to dominate all other forms of productivity over the long run.
Therefore an increase in labor productivity corresponds to a decrease in k, which must lead to decreases in the net savings rate, unless GDP growth accelerates. Seeing as how the gdp growth rate has not been accelerating in China (or anywhere else in the industrialized world), a constant savings rate can only mean stagnant or falling labor productivity. An increasing net savings rate means that labor productivity is cliff-diving.
P.S. the Cambridge Capital Controversy comes into play when trying to define prices in terms of values like K. If you accept that K is a function of prices and not an explanation of them, then you can certainly give a value to K — use the market price. The cost you pay is that both K and s tend to be volatile, while g does not change very much. In general, as the market price is adjusted downward, re-investment (s) decreases, and when the market price is adjusted upwards, re-investment increases.
(1) Here I’ve plotted a graph of s/k versus g for the SP 500, where g is the 10 year trailing earnings growth rate, s is the present net-investment rate, approximated as = (earnings – dividends)/price, and k is the present P/E multiple. So s/k tends to oscillate about g during booms and busts rather than be exactly equal to it.
October 5th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
JKH,
I agree that the U.S. does not “need” China to re-invest dollars here, but rather that China must re-invest dollars if it is to maintain the peg. The flow is as follows:
1. U.S. firm outsources to China, cutting $1.50 in wages and shifting .50 into dividends or bonuses to top management, and spending $1 on Chinese exports.
2. The Chinese government prints up 6 RMB (or whatever they want to peg at) and confiscates the dollar from the exporter in exchange for the RMB.
3. The Chinese government must immediately buy $1 worth of dollar assets. It cannot keep the dollar, nor can it use the dollar to buy oil. It must re-invest that dollar at the same time as it buys it, otherwise the peg will fail and the price of dollars will skyrocket:
Keep in mind that even now there is only about 1 Trillion of dollars outside bank reserves, and that about half of that is overseas. You cannot run hundreds of billions of dollars in annual surpluses while keeping the dollars. The SWF and foreign central banks do not hold dollars, but dollar assets. And because it takes time and there are regulatory hurdles to buy anything else, you must buy treasuries or agencies in order to maintain the peg.
4. The result of this re-investment on the U.S. side is that the rate of interest falls for dollar assets, while the purchasing power of the middle class falls due to wage arbitrage. The combination of the two is only possible if U.S. households are augmenting their purchasing power by incurring more debt.
5. The result of this on the Chinese side is that the stock of RMB is increasing as output is exported from the country, leading to domestic inflation. When talking about a policy to “maintaining a high savings rate”, you are really talking about “maintaining the profit rate” of exporters. It is not the savings rate of median households that is growing, either here or in China.
In the sense of the formula s = kg, the high s translates into a high k, not a high g: huge asset bubbles in land and equities on the chinese side and on the U.S. side, and chronic demand shortages on both sides of the ocean, as Chinese workers are too poor to buy their own output, which is exported away, while U.S. workers must incur debt to continue to maintain their consumption.
Here is a graph of the wage shares of GDP by income quintiles, since 1967. Here is a graph of the income gap of the third cohort (e.g. middle class) since 1967, and here is a graph of the cumulative growth in household debt since 1967 plotted against the cumulative income loss of the third cohort since 1967.
We are living in a “demand constrained” world, and that is just a fancy way of saying that those with a propensity to consume are not being paid enough in wages to consume output. The difference between output and the wage demand for output must be funded by exports (in the case of China) or household debt (in the case of the U.S.)
October 5th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
QUESTION FROM USA (from a fixed income PM)
Steve,
I hear you on debt being the cause of the crisis. But let me ask you why another asset bubble can’t be propped up yet again? As you yourself have pointed out, down under, households have leveraged AGAIN with home ownership credit from the government?
Let me posit one view on the US (not my base case view which remains negative) – the negative consensus view is that the govt stimulus won’t be sufficient to sustain GDP growth because consumers are too leveraged to borrow again and banks won’t lend anyway. BUT,
After a year or more of govt stimulus, as banks regain risk appetite and instead of financing the US federal deficit by buying UST (I digress, but this is one reason why the alarmists who are complaining about UST issuance and who is going to finance it are WRONG – banks and consumers will funnel savings into UST a la Japan), start lending to consumers (not sub prime, but generally Ok credit consumers). Consumers, after saving a little money and paying down debt a little, borrow again, especially as they see healthcare “reform” put a safety net below them. With government backing both social security and healthcare costs (lets assume for now that this guarantee is iron clad – I can address the flaws in this assumption later), why won’t the consumer borrow again? And not the sub prime borrower, but the Ok consumer who wasn’t as leveraged and still has the capacity to borrow?
In the US, the “successful” C4C program shows that consumers will borrow if they have a chance. As to why banks will lend, after a while, they will chase yield and lend to consumers again.
This generates modest GDP growth, which in turn cuts deficits, which cuts UST issuance, which keeps LT rates contained, which fosters further borrowing.
I guess the question I am asking is “Yes, private debt is large, but what is to say that it can’t remain somewhat large for a long period of time? Why won’t the US consumers borrow – maybe not as much as before, but borrow again? Especially the segment of the US consumer which wasn’t highly leveraged to begin with and can support some more leverage?” Banks lend, consumers borrow, GDP growth is sustained, even if at somewhat lower levels?
If the Australian consumer took on leverage when given a home buying credit and a US consumer took on more debt when given a C4C credit, what is to say that the level of private debt to GDP can’t remain relatively high because social security and health care safety nets remove the need to save?
October 5th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Re #2 Reminder re discussion in Bear part 5 – Steve’s response to JKH’s preliminary conceptual comments on the actual mechanisms of banking had to be postponed.
I’m still really looking forward to it as the issues of credit is extended with evaluations of security and risk are clearly central.
I agree with JKH in #2 that “most of the economics profession has no understanding of how the banking system actually operates”. Also agree that at least attempting to reconcile stocks and flows of funds is common to both Post-Keynesians and chartalists and better than “no understanding”.
So let’s get into the nitty gritty of both actual banking and finance how it interacts with actual production.
This would be far more productive than railing at various stupidities and could shed light on some of the issues raised about investment proposals in #25.
BTW my (thoroughly undeveloped) take on #25 is that most such investment proposals are in fact unviable due to overproduction (even when not associated with green religion) and that funds therefore flow naturally into unproductive “assets” perceived as less “risky” even though they are also becoming more and more risky due to asset bubbles. I don’t see a resolution without an actual full scale crisis that restructures the whole economy. But I know that’s not even a half-baked analysis until I can demonstrate how finance and production actually interconnect in the real economy. Others should also understand that their views cannot be taken seriously without such a basis.
October 5th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
How do many Australians see Obama’s “Stimulus” Plan? We all know Steve’s pov on this. In a sense, it’s scary and (funny?) at the same time.
The corporate owned MSM won’t allow CNBC and all the other shows to tell the truth. But also, it seems like many of the other “economic experts” are bored and now having a go at each other. There are only so many ways to say this is all rubbish. So now time to have a go at those other guys.
October 5th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
@ak and scepticus
Than you for putting me right. I will certainly agree that it is a credit money system but this is just one aspect. We also have the following aspects at play:
1. Continuous inflationary spirals with periods of deflation (boom crash cycles).
2. False positive growth of an economy that makes the very rich (top 1%) richer and a real negative growth that makes the poor (lower 99%) poorer.
3. Continuous debasement of past labor, production or asset accumulation. The later does not include inflationary assets (or false worth) that can be used to hedge against continuous inflation.
4. Contentious created debt (by credit) being seen as an asset (see previous point).
5. A Contentious expansion of false wealth.
To continue in such ways now allows for this.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/imf-takes-on-enhanced-global-role-20091005-gio5.html
The people that created the crisis (top 1%) due to greed, now have more power over the creation of debt which will enlarge the aspects which I have previously stated (point 1 to 5).
Many people are under the assumption that the Global Economic Crisis is one which we entered into due to ignorance. Who actually benefits from the Global Economic Crisis?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PpMdTmVMpo
People may find this nonsense but look at what is written history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkKbE9qCzQo
Steve Keen would be aware of such videos by Max Keiser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTYizzdHAXM
We believe we live in democracies with free market economies but the truth is far from that. True capitalism or democracies are an illusion. We can say that capitalism and democracies appear to be two independent systems but in reality they part of the one system called corporatism.
October 5th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Steve,
I think this call of yours is too premature. It is more likely to lead to people once again taking you seriously expecting the market to crash when the government will pull out a few more aces. The government can and will reduce stamp duty further, allow speculating with super, play around with interest rates further thus postponing the fall.
The RBA decision to raise interest rates will also be premature but they will reverse it as soon as there is any threat to the housing market. After all who are the beneficiaries of this beloved PONZI scheme? the are heavily geared in housing and will go out of their way to stop it. While the common lay man is working hard, paying taxes and making high interest payments they are busy collecting investment properties and minimizing their taxes. So expecting the downfall to happen in 2010 is just once again embarking on the same route that caused you to walk.
I seriously think that we cant expect to see this happen unless unemployment increases like the US. This I reckon is more than 2 years away. After 2 years the US has witnessed only a 17% downfall with economist like you, mish and roubini saying it has further 23% to fall. So why do you reckon it will happen so quickly in Australia? I hope you stick to your original forecast of 10 years instead of now and then taking a detour and suggesting near future. On the other hand dont know what 40% are you equating it to. Your bet is a perfect example of this not equating to what we have in our minds and you losing(or about to loose it) even before the party has started.
Even if house prices fall you cant guarantee it will not be uniform. In the affordable suburbs where most migrants move too in the 450K range I dont expect much movement (even though 10 years back this was around 250K and these were ghost towns not like now!). On the other hand, 600K+ I would say that is a different story. I also think that the unless the banks lending standards change this is not going to happen soon. Anyone claiming that banks are already on this path are just kidding themselves and based on one article that someone has written. I can give you a couple of banks that are willing to lend with a 5% deposit and 2.5K mortgage insurance fees when this should be 20 to 30% deposit at least.
This is just constructive criticism please dont take it any other way.
October 5th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
RSJ,
Thank you for the clarification but I still don’t agree with your argument that the Chinese would be better off by saving/investing less and consuming more – in terms of their GDP growth. I would say that even not the GDP growth is their goal but the increase in productive capacities. This is the axiom of what is going on in China. You are saying “fine but this is bad for them, for the people”.
They could be better off in terms of consumption today – but this is not what they want (and the majority of population is happy with the rapid industrialisation government policies regardless whether they have Western-type democracy and freedoms or not).
They want to get out of poverty ASAP before global resources run out – at any price.
I still think that reducing their saving rate would be suicidal to the economy and social stability at this stage. In 10 or 20 years things will be different, they will reach natural limits of the export-driven growth (like Japan and South Korea reached about 10 years ago) and only then your arguments will become 100% valid.
Please bear in mind that I grew up in a country under “real socialism” and certain things related to China are obvious to me. Their growth is not driven by local consumption not because of the corruption of the communist party apparatchiks- this is how it has been designed. They got rid of the ideology and of state ownership of means of production but the growth paradigm remains the same. If you read the first document I linked you can clearly see the continuity between experiments (and mistakes) made by Mao and more recent adoption of moderated capitalist economy championed by Deng Xiao Ping and his successors.
This doesn’t mean that they will not allow for more unconstrained private consumption in the future – but not yet. They have started dabbling with this idea already. But please be aware that your social model does not apply there and the Americanism is not universal. Not understanding this rather obvious fact cost a guy called Rupert Murdoch a billion dollars.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/murdochs-china-dream-shattered-20080125-1o77.html
Let me now refer to your arguments in more detail.
“Seeing as how the gdp growth rate has not been accelerating in China (or anywhere else in the industrialized world), a constant savings rate can only mean stagnant or falling labor productivity. An increasing net savings rate means that labor productivity is cliff-diving”
The net savings rate is pretty much constant (30-40%) and GDP growth rate is also pretty much constant about 10% (was accelerating before the GFC). This doesn’t contradict what you have written. The saving rate (or rather investment rate) is not increasing and the increase in the GDP growth rate in the years 2000-2007 could have been attributed to falling capital-output ratio.
http://www.starmass.com/china_review/fixed_assets_invest/china_fixed_assets_investment.htm (not exactly the saving rate but closely related if other factors excluded)
http://www.starmass.com/china_review/economy_overview/economy_gdp_trends.htm (GDP growth)
So everything is fine – they are powering ahead. I wouldn’t be surprised if American banking and corporate executives actually stole much more than a few oligarchs who didn’t end up in a jail in China.
“In the sense of the formula s = kg, the high s translates into a high k, not a high g: huge asset bubbles in land and equities on the chinese side and on the U.S. side, and chronic demand shortages on both sides of the ocean, as Chinese workers are too poor to buy their own output, which is exported away, while U.S. workers must incur debt to continue to maintain their consumption.”
Agree – but this is the game they are playing. They are advanced mercantilists.
This article clearly describes the rules of the game (even if you don’t agree with the conclusions some observations are quite valuable I think):
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1764172/china_mercantilism_and_new_global_economic.html?cat=3
I just want to add that sterilisation of trillions of dollars is just a side-effect of keeping the juan-to-dollar peg. They were in fact considering slowly moving away from that policy in 2007 but then GFC struck.
October 5th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
RSJ,
Very good analysis. My way of looking at it is the following:
PNS = G + NX – T.
(PNS = Private Net Saving)
Since NX and G appear with the same sign, instead of promoting exports, a government can simply spend more to satisfy the desire of the private sector to save more. Another way to look at it is that if Chinese exporters get USD 100 for an export, a Chinese bank will give RMB 600 to the exporters in exchange for the USD 100. The Central bank will get the USD 100 from the commercial bank in exchange for reserves (and has to do a sterilization operation to support the overnight rates). The Chinese private sector has gained RMB 600 but that simply could have been from government spending of RMB 600 instead of the exports. The Chinese wouldn’t have those extra dollars but it has enough already. (exactly similar to what you said) Increased government spending instead of exports will increase the standard of living and lead to a better distribution of wealth.
Of course that does not mean stop exports – because from a micro viewpoint, it increases competition. Entrepreneurs have more opportunities. Workers can get more wages. However it doesn’t seem to happen that way – I can believe you when you say that the exporter class has a connection with the dirty politicians in China.
October 5th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
You are not even considering the following facts by your statement.
1. The financial derivative bubble is worth well over US$600 trillion. These four America, banks; JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Bank of America and Citibank control 94% of these financial derivatives.
2. Unfunded US Government liabilities from about I think 2018 are close to US$60 trillion.
3. US GDP is slightly over US$10 trillion. This needs to grow significantly for the US to be able to just stabilized unemployment at it current levels. What is real US unemployment and underemployment anyway? 20%? 25%?
4. The US Government federal spending increased from US$2.9 trillion (2007-2008) to US$3.1 trillion (2008-2009) which is a 6.9% increase. The US Government federal spending for 2009 to 2010 is budgeted to be US$3.6 trillion which is a 16.3% increase or US$0.5 trillion (10% of this is to pay the interest on the current debt). We can add this to the current budget deficit of US$1.5 trillion. That is US$2 trillion that the US Government has to borrow from foreigners this current fiscal year.
5. The US dollar is on the verge of falling against a bucket of foreign currencies. This will increase that price of Chinese made goods which accounts already for a large share of the US GDP. Having inflation in the price of Chinese goods in a deflationary economy is scary.
6. If US unemployment (Standard ILO/OCED measure) reaches 10.5%, this will be the worst level since the Great Depression.
7. You fail to fully appreciate what is seen on this website.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
October 5th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
You could be right Joshua, but the whole thing looks so bloody insane to me right now that I was willing to take a punt. The US’s fall has been more than that, by the way–don’t have the figures to hand though. If I had my druthers, I’d rather have not got caught up in this whole thing–and it wastes lots of my time which is better spent on productive activities like the multisectoral modelling I’m doing right now. But in some ways I’ve let the property lobby get under my skin and I don’t mind giving them a bit of curry on occasions.
Serious dislocations are I believe inevitable now–whatever form they take. Those banking on a renewal of past patterns are going to suffer shock in one form or another.
October 5th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Building that basis is precisely what I’m working on right now AD, and my time deadline is so tight–including a paper submission deadline this Friday for a funded conference–that I’m going to be very late indeed on replying sensibly to that post. So please keep it in my reminder tray for me.
October 5th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
@joshua
You are not even considering the following facts by your statement.
1. The financial derivative bubble is worth well over US$600 trillion. These four America, banks; JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Bank of America and Citibank control 94% of these financial derivatives.
2. Unfunded US Government liabilities from about I think 2018 are close to US$60 trillion.
3. US GDP is slightly over US$10 trillion. This needs to grow significantly for the US to be able to just stabilized unemployment at it current levels. What is real US unemployment and underemployment anyway? 20%? 25%?
4. The US Government federal spending increased from US$2.9 trillion (2007-2008) to US$3.1 trillion (2008-2009) which is a 6.9% increase. The US Government federal spending for 2009 to 2010 is budgeted to be US$3.6 trillion which is a 16.3% increase or US$0.5 trillion (10% of this is to pay the interest on the current debt). We can add this to the current budget deficit of US$1.5 trillion. That is US$2 trillion that the US Government has to borrow from foreigners this current fiscal year.
5. The US dollar is on the verge of falling against a bucket of foreign currencies. This will increase that price of Chinese made goods which accounts already for a large share of the US GDP. Having inflation in the price of Chinese goods in a deflationary economy is scary.
6. If US unemployment (Standard ILO/OCED measure) reaches 10.5%, this will be the worst level since the Great Depression.
7. You fail to fully appreciate what is seen on this website.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
October 5th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
[...] posted here: Debtwatch No. 39 October 2009: In the Dark on Cause and Effect … Tags: australian, capital-advisors, fund-manager, green-revolution, inflated-due, [...]
October 5th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
hi btb,
“Disclosure. I have a small short Mac Bank position”
you aint the only one,
jim chanos, the king of shorting had mac bank in his sights from a couple of years ago,
its not a good situation to have ones business and jim chanos mentioned in the same breath in one sentence
October 5th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
The real Chinese dilemma is pretty obvious:
1. Power ahead with the imperfect export-driven rapid industrialisation model and introduce any reforms very slowly.
2. Open up the country to Western influence and switch over to domestic-consumption model.
Especially in the context of the recent failure of the American economy I would be extremely surprised if more than lip-service is offered in China to introducing the Western model.
Do you remember what happened in the USSR how the country collapsed when perestroika was introduced? Do you think that they are not aware in China of similar risks? They are not naive. The Americans seem to be a bit naive (sorry for that). But not the Chinese.
It is politics what drives the economy in the East – not the opposite. Otherwise why China, one of the richest countries in the 18th century became a playground for the Western powers and Japan in the 19th century and the first half of the 20th?
There is a very interesting presentation describing why the Central Bank in China choose to do what they are doing and that they are well aware of the side effects.
Note. Initially I had problems with downloading the file and you may need to re-try if the link is not working.
http://ilas.cass.cn/old/news_fj/20070612150015-0.ppt
Below are the key points:
“Since the beginning of the new century, China’s macroeconomy has been characterized with saving constantly exceeding investment.”
(this is a natural effect of the political direction explained in the first document I linked)
“As a natural consequence of this situation, China has been carrying a surplus in both current account and financial & capital account, which in turn funneled into foreign exchange reserves accumulation. Under the existed system of foreign exchange administration, the rapidly-accumulated foreign exchange reserves have enforced People’s Bank of China (PBC) to release a huge amount of monetary base in the purchases of foreign exchange. The excessively rapid growth of money supply imposes a potential inflation pressure on the national economy.”
“Faced with this problem, China’s monetary policy assumes the main task of neutralizing the adverse effects of foreign exchange reserve accumulation on money supply and domestic economic development.”
“The primary objective of China’s monetary policy is to maintain a moderate growth of money supply. The setting and changing of monetary base has generally played a subsidiary role in the policy process.”
“In early 2003, China’s foreign reserves showed an increase of 74.2 billion dollars. The PBC realized that this growth trend might persist, which implied that neutralizing the excess money supply induced would be a long-term task of China’s monetary policy. Since the financial instruments for sterilization operations were scarce, the PBC chose central bank bonds as the primary tool for its operations.”
“Central bank bonds are issued in market. To attract investors, the rates of central bank bonds have to be kept on a relative high level. This trend may induce more foreign capital inflows and so impair the goal of stabilizing the exchange rate. In this regard, the sterilization operations are unsustainable.
This concern is logically valid. Certainly, if the Fed continues its high interest rate policy adopted since June 30, 2004, the problem will not be so serious. However, once the United States stops raising interest rates, the worry will become true.
Apparently, China has already encountered the problem since the end of last year.”
(The presentation was prepared in 2007)
So the started using currency swaps to perform more sterilization…
“In the perspective of monetary operation, currency swap is equivalent to Repos, and during the transaction period it can decrease the foreign assets held by the central bank.”
I just wanted to illustrate that they were aware of everything.
They know that the problem is growing and one day they will have to find a solution.
By that day the Americans will have ceased all the manufacturing except for arms (because manufacturing offers much lower return than financial services – the free market is always right about that) and Australia will be completely reduced to the role of a big iron ore / coal mine.
So who is the winner and which economic theory brings more benefits?
October 5th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
ak re china: “I would say that even not the GDP growth is their goal but the increase in productive capacities. ”
I kind of agree with both of you. China clearly needs to build for the future, before they get old, and before they run out of oil. So they need sustainable transport infrastructure, an ability to produce more food domestically etc. That’s investment, not consumption.
However what they have been investing in is not the above for the main part, they have lots of export overcapacity and lots of building overcapacity.
Having said that I do agree with RSJ they need to learn to consume a little more now, and by doing so lay the foundations long term to transition into a domestically focussed consumer economy in some 20 years time. You can’t have a consumer economy without some level of welfare state. You can’t have a hi tech specialised economy without welfare and retirement planning infrastructure, unless it is supported by unsustainable current account surpluses, as japan are finding out. These things take a long time to put in place culturally, politically and economically so they need to start now. Laying the foundations to be a stable state of such vast numbers of people in a future world of reduced international trade is an investment, and part of that must be to start experimenting with local private consumption.
October 5th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
hi superpoincare,
“The Chinese wouldn’t have those extra dollars but it has enough already.”
i’m not so sure,
under dollar hegemony, with british and US multi nationals locking up vast tracts of the global resource market, and the rest controlled by government controlled corporate entities ,
how many trillions of greenbacks is it going to take to grow incomes from $2000 usd to $45000 usd.
you can go to any dingey dark corner of the planet, bribe anyone and get them to dig anything out of the ground if you have enough US dollars,
i’m not sure flashing a fist full of yaun will have people scrambling for their shuvels,