Debtwatch No. 39 October 2009: In the Dark on Cause and Effect
One of the keynote speakers at the 38th Australian Conference of Economists in Adelaide last week was Edward Lazear, who was Chairman of the US President’s Council of Economic Advisers from 2006-09.
In other words, he was in one of the world’s economic hotseats right when the “Great Moderation” (see also Gerard Baker’s UK Times article in early 2007) gave way to the Global Financial Crisis.
It was far from the hottest such seat: Bernanke as Federal Reserve Chairman, and Henry Paulson as Treasury Secretary would have had much more uncomfortable backsides at the time. But Lazear signed off on the Economic Report of the President in 2007, 2008 and 2009, and was responsible for briefing the President on the economy for those three years (as his successor Christina Romer does today).
Lazears’ keynote speech gave a very good feel for the panic that was felt in the White House when the economy began to unravel in 2007, in strong contrast to the formal forecast in the 2007 Report:
The Administration’ s forecast calls for the economic expansion to continue in 2007 and beyond, although the pace of expansion is projected to slow somewhat from the stronger growth of recent years. The unemployment rate is projected to edge up slightly in 2007, while remaining below 5 percent. Real GDP growth is projected to continue at around 3 percent in 2008 and thereafter, while the unemployment rate is projected to remain stable and below 5 percent.
By the end of 2008, the unemployment rate was 7.2 percent. The prediction that unemployment would not reach 5 percent—and virtually every other official forecast by the Council of Economic Advisers (CEA) from 2007 on—was wildly wrong. The summary of forecasts from the January 2009 report (which uses data from as late as November 10 2008) is shown below.

Last week we learnt that the official OECD “U-3″ defined level of unemployment as of September 2009 was 9.8 percent—more than 2 percent higher than the CEA’s end-of-year-2009 forecast, made just over a year ago—and the much more realistic (but still incomplete) U-6 level was 17 percent.

Lazear’s speech gave a very good feel for the sheer panic that dominated decision making as the disastrous year of 2007 unfolded—and as an even more disastrous 2008 took its place. He also put forward his own interpretation of what caused the crisis, and what the prospects were for growth from now on.
He prefaced his remarks with the caveat that he wasn’t a macroeconomist: his specialty was wage setting and remuneration in general (this in itself is a sign of how complacent the government—and the economics profession—was at the time, by appointing someone to this key position whose speciality was not macroeconomics). So working from his grounding in conventional neoclassical macroeconomics that he shares with most US economists, he reasoned that:
- The underlying cause of the US crisis was the high level of Chinese savings; and
- The US economy was likely to grow very quickly in the near future.
The logic for the first point went like this. Because Chinese savings were extraordinarily high, Chinese financial institutions had lots of money to invest. As well as investing in Chinese industry, they also invested in American bonds. This encouraged an increased supply of risky bonds, and drove down the spread between them—especially those for Subprime mortgages—and safe bonds. That in turn fuelled the Subprime boom, and hey presto, crisis.
The logic for the second was that post-WWII experience has shown that the deeper a recession, the stronger the recovery from it. So since this downturn had been so steep, a strong recovery was likely: he tipped a real growth rate of as high as 5 percent for 2010.
Lazear got little disagreement on these points from the other almost exclusively neoclassical economists at the conference—not necessarily because they thought his argument was correct, but because they had no viable alternative argument as to why this crisis had begun.
Needless to say I disagreed with both these arguments. We debated these points, both in a question from the floor and in a good discussion that Lazear initiated with me on this topic during the pre-dinner drinks. The discussion was unfortunately ended when Lazear had to take his allocated seat. This Debtwatch outlines what I would have told him, had we had the chance to continue the conversation.
Reverse causation
Lazear’s proposition that excessive Chinese savings caused the financial crisis is straight out of the neoclassical macroeconomics textbook, which portrays the financial sector as the means by which those with excess funds from savings lend to those with insufficient funds, thus financing the investment the debtors wish to undertake. The Chinese save lots, so they have the excess funds; the Americans were dis-saving, so they had to borrow the funds they needed for investment (or rather rampant speculation) from elsewhere.
The first problem with this argument, which Lazear acknowledged in his speech, was that the textbook would have predicted that America would be the saver and China the borrower. America is supposed to be the mature economy with high incomes, high savings, and less opportunities for a high return on capital, while Chian is supposed to be the developing economy with lower incomes, lower savings, and many opportunities for a high return on capital.
But the real problem with the textbook argument is that its cause and effect relations are, to put it bluntly, “arse about tit”.
The textbook argues that savings must occur first before investment can occur—and since the poor Chinese happen to be good savers, while the rich Americans are lousy savers, the financial flows went from China to the USA. So the US crisis is all China’s fault.
In fact, the action in a credit-driven economy begins with the lender: lending creates the money which—once spent by the borrower—turns up in other people’s bank accounts. The actual causal sequence that gave us the GFC was therefore:
- American lenders lent to Americans to finance the housing and stock market bubbles, and copious purchases of consumer goods as well as Americans falsely believed their wealth was growing as house and share prices skyrocketed;
- These American borrowers spent large slabs of this borrowed money on imported Chinese goods;
- The Chinese recipients of this American spending racked up a large surplus of US dollars, which added to Chinese foreign currency reserves;
- Some of these reserves were used to purchase US assets, including Subprime bonds but also government bonds, equities, and other financial assets around the world.
So the problem began, not with Chinese saving, but with American lending. The huge foreign exchange surpluses accumulated by the BRICs, Japan and to some extent Europe began in the profligate lending of the American financial system during its latest and greatest Ponzi bubble. They are a symptom of the problem, but not its cause.
This argument is commonplace in the Post Keynesian school of economic thought—but foreign to Neoclassical thinking, which still makes the mistake of imagining that credit money is no different to a commodity money system (like gold) where you can’t lend until you after you have accumulated a stock of that commodity.
In fact, in a credit system lenders can and do create money simply by the double-entry book-keeping process of creating a loan and a deposit at the same time, as I explained in the “Roving Cavaliers of Credit” post. The failure of neoclassical economics to realise this is one of the major reasons why they don’t understand the economy. Instead they have a model that might be of some assistance to a tribal marketplace in the New Guinea highlands (or of some relevance to a medieval fair), but which bears no relation to our modern credit-based economy.
Dead Cat Bounce
Lazear’s hope that the economy would bounce back from the Great Recession (as it’s now being described) was shared by the vast majority of economists at the conference. The basis of the hope was simply historical experience, where “history” meant “what has happened since World War II”.
The chart below, taken from the 2009 CEA Report, shows the pattern that Lazear, and most “green shoots” neoclassical economists are relying upon: the deeper the recession, the bigger the boom afterwards.

Even this looks far from reassuring—an R-squared of 0.39 leaves a lot unexplained. But there are also other patterns in this data.
While growth did rebound to well above average in the immediate aftermath of most post-WWII recessions, this is truer of early post-WWII recessions than the later ones—and it has only barely been true for the last two recessions. In fact, after the 2000 recession, growth barely popped above the long term average, spent most of the period since the recession below the average, and was trending down even before this recession officially began.
The time trend is more obvious when the dates of the recessions are replaced with the number of years ago they ended (using 2010 as my reference point, so the 57-58 recession ended 52 years before 2010). The big slump-big boom pairs tend to occur earlier whereas the more recent ones are smaller, AND the older ones are tend to be above the curve while the more recent ones are below. So this simple linear regression obscures a time trend in the data.

There has also been a substantial fall in the average rate of growth over time—something the above chart can’t show, but which is apparent in the one below. Between 1950 and 1970, when Lazear’s rule of thumb clearly applied, the average rate of growth was a very robust 4.27 per cent. Since then, when the rule of thumb clearly weakened, the average has fallen to below 3 per cent.

Clearly the US economy was already pretty sick before this crisis broke out: the pattern that Lazear and most neoclassical economists are relying upon had already died. The only thing it appears well suited to doing is growing debt and financial crises—which brings me to my final comment on Lazear’s speech.
Popcorn on the Oven
As any regular reader of Debtwatch knows, I am no stranger to analogies: I’m always looking for some parable that will tell an economic tale more accessibly than a straight-faced description of a model or a set of data. Lazear showed that he was a fair hand at analogies too, with his description of the “Popcorn model” of the financial crisis that he said he advocated while in office.
Others, he told us, subscribed to the “Domino” theory of financial contagion, which was that the financial system was like a set of dominoes: if one fell over, the whole lot could fall over, but if they were all kept upright, none would fall. So all the effort went into ensuring that each merchant bank that got into difficulty was rescued, in the belief that this would stop the others from failing.
Lazear instead used the analogy of popcorn: if you put corn in a frying pan, and remove each one that pops, that doesn’t stop others from popping afterwards.
I liked the analogy, and ran with it in a question. I pointed out that you can’t pop corn without turning the heat on, the heat is private debt, and despite everything else they’ve done to contain the crisis, the one thing American authorities haven’t done yet is to turn the oven off.

The corn is still a-poppin’ as a result, as the most recent employment data from the USA confirmed. The scale of the crisis is still greater than any post-WWII recession, and comparable still to the Great Depression, despite the widespread spin to the contrary. This chart shows the levels of unemployment relative to the start of its increase in the Great Depression, this recession, and the deepest post-WWII downturn to date, the 1979-82 slump (which was a “W-shaped” downturn).

One reason why the USA has not managed to arrest the increase in unemployment, whereas the Australian government’s stimulus packages have to date kept unemployment in check (though hours worked and incomes are falling), could be simply the much greater aggregate level of debt in the USA.
Another is that Australia’s stimulus package was mainly given to households, whereas the US has put the mass of its funds into the financial sector in the mistaken “money multiplier” belief that this will give more “bang for the buck”. As I noted in this post, a dynamic model of the economy indicates that that belief is mistaken, and Australia’s approach of giving its stimulus to the debtors rather than the creditors was far more effective.
Another not particularly good reason is the far greater rate at which the US private sector is deleveraging, and the fact that some Australian government policies—notably the First Home Vendors Boost—have encouraged households to return to leveraging up. Using Lazear’s extended analogy above, we are avoiding a crisis by turning the over temperature up.
Other reflections on the conference
I usually don’t go to the Economists Conference, because it is dominated by neoclassical economists, and I know neoclassical economics far too well to take it seriously. Conversely, neoclassical economists are virtually unaware that there is any other way of thinking about the economy, take their own fallacious methodology far too seriously, and ignore papers written by mavericks like me.
If I had presented this paper at a conference in, say, 2006, there would have been virtually no attendees at the session, while any neoclassicals who did show up would have vigorously objected to the fact that I didn’t assume optimising behaviour, or efficient finance markets, or the like.
Not this time however. My session was packed (as was every session on the financial crisis—and there were strikingly few of them), and the audience included Robert Shimer, the editor of the Journal of Political Economy—which despite its name is one of the most conservative and neoclassically dominated economic journals on the planet. He apparently advised Lazear to speak to me after my session (which Lazear couldn’t attend)—so maybe some chinks are opening up in the neoclassical citadel.
END OF COMMENTARY
Table One

Table Two









Alan,
Why do you think that I am a naive person? Why do you think I rely on MSM?
Even now after living 6 years in Australia I am still sometimes surprised how little people living in Australia and the US know about history of Eastern Europe and even the history of Asia.
Yesterday at work I was talking to a guy about Spanish civil war. “Was it in Yugoslavia?” It is like asking me about who won a cricket match 100 years ago. I don’t know and (sorry for offending some) I don’t care. The only difference is the Spanich civil war was a much more significant game than the Ashes or whatever footie.
Then using conspiracy theories to explain what seems to be dodgy around us becomes the easiest option. I do not need conspiracy theories because I can see very normal historic processes occurring here and now. I cannot disprove the conspiracy leading to 9/11 but in fact this is irrelevant to my understanding of the process.
I am not suggesting that you are not educated but I hope that you’ll find the rest of the post at least entertaining.
“You talk about countries but do the politicians from these countries care about or really represent the interest of the populace of such countries?
What evidence to you have that the financial systems will evolve (this just means change) or better put, recover and grow?”
It is irrelevant whether countries are democratic or not and the evidence is that in similar circumstances systems evolved in the past. If you look at tsar Peter the great of Russia he definitely was not a democrat but he acted in the interest of his state – he did what he thought was right (but not necessarily what was good for all the people living in Russia at that time). In fact he was a kind of crazy and very cruel person – but in the end he was branded “Great” because he modernized Russia using force and created a great European power from a marginal and rather poor country on the Eastern outskirts of the continent.
He was the guy who defeated Sweden and finally subdued Poland. Vladimir Putin takes his historical inspiration from Peter the Great rather than Kerensky (the only Russian democrat who had any chance to succeed).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_I_of_Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Kerensky
These 2 biographies contain enough information (or links to other wikipedia pages) about political processes which occurred during 2 key periods in Russian history. We need to analyse the interaction between political and economical processes to get the full picture. We cannot concentrate on slick equations relating GDP growth to investment and productivity.
The evidence is that there are very obvious conflicts of interests and there is no dominant player any more so the current system is unstable and will change. How? I don’t know, this is the question I would like to ask.
Who said that things must keep improving? What if countries which have conflicting economical interests act according to their interests rather than according to US-dominated “consensus” and engagle in a kind of cold war again? So what the Georgian war a year ago all about? What if one of the elements was the attempt to block the Americans getting access to Central Asia, the region rich in gas and oil? Have you read my post about the gas pipeline?
Obviously when you read Austrailan or American MSM you will not see much evidence to what I am writing about. You may see some traces in the British media – they are Europeans after all even if they hate it.
Well – read a book about history of Europe/Asia from 18th century and suddenly what happens now around us will become rather self-explanatory.
To prevent the change in the global landscape now one must assume that all the ruling elites in countries like China and Russia have been corrupted by the same corporations which rule the roost in the US or Australia. Which is not true. The history has not ended and Stern Hu rots in a jail rather than dictates China Incorporated the “free market prices” for iron ore.
A lot of people look at the US, their economy and their policies in the Middle East or wherever. I think that these countries and their model are becoming irrelevant. Look at China, Latin America, EU and Russia.
The last thing they will follow is the American way.
Excuse my ignorance, what are the most curent conspiracy theories, especially associated with oil, petro-dollars, Iraq, Iran and the global economic crisis?
I see excess lending as the key causal factor Glen88–lending precedes saving in the real world. So to that extent I disagree with Pettis. Savings are the residual of lending, not the cause of it.
The problem is the financial sector’s inherent bias to generating as much debt as it can, and a financial system that allows leveraged speculation on asset prices that then entices the public into debt.
I agree about the futility of attempting to control this by regulation, which is why I prefer reforms to the very nature of capital assets rather than empowering regulators.
Laurence:
Go to link from Alan’s web page
http://truth-terror.org/
and then to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy)
Steve, what is the chance of housing loan terms stretching beyond 30 years to 40, 50, 60, or even more years?
Many thanks ak, there is a lot of reading to do. It’s only worthwhile if the references are credible. Am I asking for too much I question the integrity of Wikipedia? Anyhow, it is a good starter.
Hi Steve
I’ve done a trial test on stretched loan terms. Extending the present loan term from 30 to 60 or even 90 years does not make financial sense.
Mortgage Amount: $200,000
Interest Rate: 8% p.a.
Mortgage Term: 30 years
Monthly Repayment: $1,467.53
Total you will pay: $528,310.49
Interest you will pay: $328,310.49
Mortgage Amount: $200,000
Interest Rate: 8% p.a.
Mortgage Term: 60 years
Monthly Repayment: $1,344.58
Total you will pay: $968,095.11
Interest you will pay: $768,095.11
Mortgage Amount: $200,000
Interest Rate: 8% p.a.
Mortgage Term: 90 years
Monthly Repayment: $1,334.35
Total you will pay: $1,441,101.92
Interest you will pay: $1,241,101.92
Alan Gresley@153
Now that the present president can boast of royal lineage and presumably loyal to his ancestral aspiration, would it mean Strait of Hormuz is now in mortal danger and we better get a push bike asap?
Laurence,
Regarding Peter the Great and Kerensky I would say that these short articles are very good. There is a lot of free stuff about the February and October revolutions in Russia. I read a few books in Polish and newspaper articles which I cannot recommend for obvious reasons – nobody bothers to translate stuff like that.
My grandmother who was born in 1904 had very livid memories of the Civil War (she lived in a town which was initially at the front line between Germans and Russians and later the town was occupied by Denikin, the Bolsheviks and in the end (re)captured by the Polish. Somehow my family was evacuated to Russia proper at that time and they survived thanks to small amount of gold they had and thanks to the generosity of ordinary Russian people.
So yes indeed this was (almost) all true – as described in Wikipedia and a lot of books.
I don’t subscribe to conspiracy theories (this was my point) so I cannot comment on them. I was arguing that even if 1 in 10 is true this stuff is largely irrelevant to understand how the global political system and the economy works.
In the end the fate of Europe was sealed by the Soviet troops repelling Germans in Stalingrad and near Kursk rather than in Yalta and Potsdam. These conferences were extremely important in shaping the details of the European order but not in determining it. At that time the US was unable to take on Russians so this was it for the next 45 years.
So what is the greatest mistake made by the orthodox economists?
They live in an illusion that (free) markets price everything correctly so they can operate with monetary value rather than consider real stuff. Let me give an example. We are back in 2007. An employee of GM in Detroit called Joe Kowalski (a very common name there) earns USD3000/month assembling engines. Another employee of GM (Opel) called Jan Kowalski is doing exactly the same work in Gliwice in Poland and earns USD1000/month. Is Jan Kowalski less efficient than Joe Kowalski?
Now fast forward to 2009. Jan Kowalski still gets USD1000/month. The operations have been sold to somebody else but this doesn’t matter. Joe Kowalski however has been laid off and his house repossessed – it’s now on the market for USD10000. Jan Kowalski’s two bedroom flat lost 10% of its value but the guy is doing quite well.
So please explain to me what really matters in this case – the physical wealth and living conditions or the aggregated GDP which is still much higher in the US than in Poland? Where these processes will lead in 10 years time? Will Joe find a job for USD1000 or will the currency adjust? I don’t know.
It is this failure to spot obvious things what makes the official economists blind. Some of them are talking about the rise of Chimerica – the symbiotic conglomerate of the greatest debtor/consumer (US) and the greatest saver/producer (China). Don’t be fooled. If you have weak legs you need crutches. Once your legs are strong again you can throw the crutches away. The Chinese man will dispose of the American crutches soon.
What they are building are physical capacities, wealth and global influences of the country not aggregate estimates like GDP.
Yep. You get to a point in debt to income ratios where ultimately repayment takes longer than infinity–extending the term doesn’t help. That’s why Japan’s “innovation” of 99 year mortgages back at the peak of their property bubble lasted only a few years before they were withdrawn.
The eastern European’s perspectives are very refreshing. I’ll certainly chew over these.
Steve, I used to be very skeptical about claims that China has a role in creating the imbalances, but I think Michael Pettis (and Martin Wolf to some extent) have convinced me otherwise. As I see it here is his argument (plagiarizing freely):
As part of its growth model China put into place a number of policies that subsidized production, some directly and some indirectly. These subsidies were paid for by for by Chinese households. In words cribbed from one of his articles, “Consumption growth is primarily a function of the real growth in household income, and as households were forced to subsidize growth policies by, among other things, an undervalued currency regime, excessively low interest rates on savings deposits, sluggish wage growth, unraveling social safety nets, and manufacturing subsidies, their ability to grow consumption in line with the growth in the nation’s GDP was severely hampered. Of course the gap between production and consumption is the savings rate, and as production surged relative to consumption, a necessary corollary was a rising Chinese savings rate.’
As Chinese growth in production exceeded growth in domestic consumption, China had to run a rising trade surplus to absorb the difference. Because China mostly accumulated dollars and so recycled the surplus into the US, the US had to run the accompanying deficits. This caused the tradable goods sector in the US to contract, especially since China competed most effectively not in labor intensive industries but rather in capital intensive industries (thanks to an extremely low cost of capital). The Fed should have counteracted by raising interest rates but didn’t because they wanted to keep unemployment low. The result was that US consumption grew faster than US production, and that meant that US debt levels and trade deficits rose.
By this view the global imbalances were a function both of Chinese industrial policies aimed at “turbo-charging” (his words) growth at the expense of Chinese household income and consumption and the refusal of the Fed to counteract Chinese trade policies. This doesn’t mean that “it is all China’s fault” (Pettis always makes a point of insisting that bad policies in both countries were required, but of course in the current climate you can only blame the US fully or blame China fully).
Do you agree with his argument? If not, where do you think he errs? Actually Pettis has mentioned your blog several times favorably, so I assume he will read this comment. Professor, have I stated it correctly?
@ak 163
“I don’t subscribe to conspiracy theories (this was my point) so I cannot comment on them. I was arguing that even if 1 in 10 is true this stuff is largely irrelevant to understand how the global political system and the economy works.”
So even if a conspiracy is true, it is irrelevant to the global political system? As you say, you can not comment on conspiracy theories but if some are true you believe that they are irrelevant to the debate. That is making a comment or having an opinion on the subject.
People are threatened by anything that is not an officially sanctioned world view. I have said that to understand economics, one must first understand politics and for one to understand politics one must understand history. You provide this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy)
Pertaining to the Round Table, the writer makes on the surface a very valid point, “the latter argue that it has nearly 3,000 members, far too many for secret plans to be kept within the group,” but those who use this perceived fact as evidence of no conspiracy are unaware of (or not acknowledging) a bazaar mental condition called Dissociate Identity Disorder. I care for someone with this condition and to understand certain things which I have heard or witnessed, I have had to enter the realms of conspiracy theories to get to the information that has allowed me to know what I am dealing with. Having to read recently that Dissociate Identity Disorder is a national security secret does not help me one little bit.
Getting back to the topic of Steve Keen’s post, I will link to these videos which examine the inflation deflation debate, currency carry trades and questions the official statistics coming out of Washington.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8IDOFeN_R4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXrRpnbvZPY
Hi JackZhang,
It is certainly the case that if one country deliberately undervalues its currency it can force others into trade deficits. This was Japan’s behaviour in the early post-War period, and it worked. Believers in comparative advantage always believed that such Mercantilist behaviour would simply cause domestic inflation and equalise currencies in real terms, but of course that’s nonsense.
So yes China could to some degree have been a cause of the US problem.
However the US also borrowed the money that became the Chinese surplus, so there are two sides to the causation. And US corporations have also taken advantage of provisions in its trade regulations designed to give developing countries an advantage to relocate production from the USA to China and elsewhere and export the goods back to the USA free of import duties (I’ve forgotten the specific trade provision–maybe US readers can remind us?).
So I see the causation as two-sided, and there’s too much emphasis on it being China’s fault in the USA. I therefore lean against the wind on this one.
Alan,
My point is that unless you have access to classified information you cannot say whether the “Round Table” theory is true or not. I have no access to that information and I doubt whether you have access to hard evidence. But what if the actual conspiracy theory has been invented by, say CIA, to mask something much more sinister?
If we are in the world of conspiracies I cannot even reject a possibility that 10% of members of this blog work for secret services. What if I work for Russian FSB and you work for CIA and somebody else works for the Chinese secret service? (Seriously speaking I think that at least one blog member behaves like a CIA operative but this doesn’t matter much to me as long as I do not end up in Guanatanamo Bay).
Planting too many conspiracy theories would only mean that normal people should not trust what we have written as normal ordinary people do not trust stories about UFO, Round Tables and any other stuff like that. This would be the only sensible outcome from the CIA’s point of view – to create so much noise that the real signal drowns.
Who can think that there is a single group of people running the governments of US, UK, China, Russia and Brazil behind the scenes? And if this is not the case the global conspiracy wouldn’t work.
The much more sinister truth is that we live in the crumbling global order run by certain oligarchies especially from the US – and we can see it without even resorting to conspiracy theories because everything is clearly visible if we want to see it. That neo-classical economics is a pseudoscience laden with neoliberal ideology used to brainwash people into believing in need for the greed and overconsumption. The truth that consumerism / pseudo-growth are bad for us and our civilisation will crumble very soon unless we moderate. Yes these ideas are really dangerous – much more dangerous than stories about the 9/11. Ditch absolute property rights and blind beliefs in “endless progress” and “growth”. The Earth is limited and so we are.
Whether 9/11 was a conspiracy or not is irrelevant as what happened next really matters. Bush started 2 wars going after oil and your country is losing both of them. Your country is losing the global battle for economical and political domination – and this is a natural process which happened many times in the past to:
Roman Empire,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gokturks (this was really mind-blowing – who knows about that state?)
The Arab Caliphate,
Mongol Empire,
Timur’s Empire,
Spanish and Portuguese colonial empires,
Ottoman Empire,
Russia,
British and French colonial empires,
The USSR,
Can the US be any different? You may think that the rules of the game have changed because of the globalisation and progress. I have serious doubts in it.
Personally I don’t believe in a conspiracy but I can see an orchestrated push to get certain things across the line – made by so-called neoconservatives (in the US, UK, Australia, Israel and even Poland). On the other hand nobody ever disagreed that links existed between Brzezinski, Albright and certain Central European politicians. Another guy who was very active at that time was Karol Wojtyla – the Polish pope. The involvement of George Soros in the Georgian “revolution” has been admitted by Soros himself.
So what? If you go to Poland now and start speaking with American accent you may be pelted with eggs after the current betrayal of the most loyal (and stupid) American friend in Central Europe, willing to send as much cannon fodder to Afghanistan as requested by the American overlords. This is where Brzezinski’s policies led to. He was a hero 20 years ago. Now his ideas are outdated and obsolete.
Have I made up another conspiracy theory? No because all the information I am using comes from MSM (from different countries – you’ll not find everything written in English). You can build almost full picture of what’s going on without wasting your time on trying to determine whether 9/11 was staged by CIA, Mossad or whoever else.
The only precondition: Stop thinking like an American. Relax. Read about Gokturks. The US is not the world. It is just one country.
I like this guy because he can explain what is going on using information from the public domain and draw very far reaching conclusions (warning – he sounds like another agent):
http://pavelpodolyak.blogspot.com/
Steve Keen@168
Just my own thoughts.
The Chinese Govt in the late 1970′s was obviously held hostage by her wishes to appease contributors who were providing “foreign capitals”, mainly from Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea and Singapore. These regions I think were known as the “Four Tigers” – so called probably because of their crooked and menacing attitude towards commercial competition.
The old “capitalist roaders”, who came back to power after spending more than a decade either in the economic backwaters of China or under virtual house arrests, could not wait to see the results from these foreign investments. Workers were locked inside the foreigner-funded factories 24/7 and would only see daylight if they survived fires that burnt down the doors. There were thousands of news reports on factories, market fires, supermarkets fires, nightclub fires, together with factory collapses, building collapses, railway station collapses and bridge collapses, one would simply lose count of the number of major events, let alone the bodies. Through this period of Foreign Capital Appeasement, not much attention was devoted to environmental legislations, workers’ compo etc things that we are accustomed to.
Since fierce commercial competition has certainly devalued everything thing in its warpath, one may think that it has also exerted the same influence on the RMB.
Alan Gresley@167
Thank you for the links. I went as far as part one and a viewer’s comment baffles me. ExquisiteDoom (2 hours ago) says:
“The title bothers me. Why does the A in MAX? look like the eiffel tower… a masonic relic… all paranoya aside… FUCK MICHAEL MOORE!”
May be you can shed some light on this.
re comments@170, unfortunately these comments have left an impression that the Chinese Govt was locking up worker inside the factory compounds throughout the period of the Great Appeasement. I did not mean that at all. I actually meant that the authorities had overlooked the draconian measures that were being implemented by the foreign capitals to cut cost. Whimpers from the workers were overwhelmed by the lavish praise being tirelessly heaped on the “foreign investors” who were racing against time to recoup their investment asap.
@ak 169
By the way, I live in Australia and always have.
The old order which is talked about in conspiracy circles is the Anglo-American-Dutch empire which has extended it’s tentacles around the world financially. This was to subjugate Eurasia as a move for full spectrum dominance. Just this week China, Russia, Japan, France and the Gulf Arab states have come out for the first time and drawn a line in the sand.
The possible conspiracy about the deliberate collapses of the economy and society in America is getting overtly evasive in all manners. If this is true, then this is going to affect to world on a large scale since we have to uncouple from the US dollar and not all people will be able to successfully get out of investments in finance or assets based in US dollars. Economist like Steve Kline and others may be wise to factor such things into their economic formulas.
“My point is that unless you have access to classified information you cannot say whether the “Round Table” theory is true or not. I have no access to that information and I doubt whether you have access to hard evidence. But what if the actual conspiracy theory has been invented by, say CIA, to mask something much more sinister?”
I was not mentioning the Round Table directory. I was giving an example of how such conspiracy can happen without people fully knowing. I do have information of particular things and the CIA is masking something much more sinister.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKP7rn186kY
“The much more sinister truth is that we live in the crumbling global order run by certain oligarchies especially from the US – and we can see it without even resorting to conspiracy theories because everything is clearly visible if we want to see it.”
Please understand this. I have to go via a lot of many worthless conspiracy theories to get to the information that personally relates to me and the person I care for. By doing so, I have learned or seen things that only a few people have seen or heard.
“Can the US be any different? You may think that the rules of the game have changed because of the globalization and progress. I have serious doubts in it.”
I don’t mind globalization. I see it as a way to address fundamental imbalances in the world. One example is between the First World and the Third world. I object to Globalization being used as a means to transfer wealth to the riches 1% of the world via monopolies. This allows for barriers to entry into the market place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barriers_to_entry
The New World Order can be perceived in two ways.
1. A New World Order that is a continuation of the Old World Order (North America and Western Europe Empire).
2. An adaptation (not understanding the meaning of the original term) of the term New World Order which is a shifting of the Geo-political balance from West to East.
Apart from China, Russia and etc. directly attacking the dominance of America and Britain financially, they have used Robert Fisk and his use of the New World Order (mentioning an international cabal) to attack America and Britain indirectly by the use of false propaganda. This could see this as an attempt by this group to alert the American public to their domestic problems. A revolution in America can bring on a Renaissance which can help save the value of investment based in US dollars. I did not mention anything about 9/11 directly (this was you). I mentioned that it is Robert Fisk that has talked about it among many other things that is attacking the American and British establishments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fisk
If Robert Fisk was the person chosen by the Shanghai corporation to write a rumor, they world be very aware of what he has already been written about.
You can think whatever you choose but regardless of if conspiracy theories are true or not but the reality is that people are protesting and showing great distrust of all governments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9AInYdbV7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrhG-CI-0fY
None of this is covered by the Australian mainstream media. This is a fact that you can not deny. If you wish to debate conspiracy, please do it on YouTube or another forum. I am only attempting to make relevant points regarding the economy or things that affect economies like corrupt Politician or other elites. I am not commenting here to get sucked into debates with people that are closed to alternative views.
In many ways, China is currently less affected by the financial crisis than other countries, due to its more closed financial system. This has led other nations to urge China to lend a greater financial hand such as increasing its own imports. But any slowdown in China’s growth can have significant effects. Some economists, such as Nouriel Roubini, have cautioned that China could face a recession if it’s growth rate were to slow to even as high as 6 percent. Roubini argues that China needs to maintain at least a 9 percent growth rate just to handle it’s growing labor force and move farmers to the urban sector. China may be in for a hard landing, Roubini writes.
http://www.businessprivateeye.com