It’s Hard Being a Bear (Part Five): Rescued?
on September 19th, 2009 at 2:30 pmI’m happy to admit that I underestimated how strongly governments would respond to this financial crisis. Dramatic reductions in interest rates, huge fiscal stimuli and—in the USA and UK—expansion of government-created money, have all had a positive impact on the economy and asset markets (both shares and houses).
In his recent essay, Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd estimated that the rescues were the equivalent of roughly 18 percent of global GDP over a 3 year period, which is an unprecedented level of expenditure by governments.
Eichengreen and O’Rourke’s comparison of today to the Great Depression gives the most balanced assessment of how effective these policies have been at the global level.
They have clearly turned around stock markets. Six months ago, world stock markets were 50% below their peak, a far worse performance than during the Great Depression when, at the same time after the peak, they had only fallen 10%. By the beginning of September, markets had recovered to be only a couple of percent below the comparable 1930 position of a 30% fall.
Industrial output has also turned around. Six months ago this was 13% below the peak level, worse than the 1930s position of an 11% decline. Since then it has risen to be only 10% below, while at the equivalent time in the 1930s, industrial output had fallen 20% from its 1929 high.
So has the government cavalry ridden to the rescue? If the crisis were one simply of liquidity, the answer would be yes. A government stimulus can overwhelm the impact of a credit crunch, and the innate dynamic of a productive economy can re-assert itself after such a crisis, leading to renewed growth.
But this not merely a crisis of liquidity. It is one of excessive private debt, on a scale that is also unprecedented: the USA is carrying US$41.5 trillion in debt on the back of a US$14 trillion economy, proportionately 70 percent more debt than it had at the start of the Great Depression. In December 2007, the private sector swung from ramping up debt levels as it chased speculative gains on asset markets, to retreating from debt as the asset bubbles burst.
In the space of a year, private debt went from adding US$4 trillion to aggregate demand, to subtracting US$165 billion from it. Private debt had ceased being the economy’s turbocharger and had instead become its flooded engine.

While economic outsiders like myself, Michael Hudson, Niall Ferguson and Nassim Taleb argue that the only way to restart the economic engine is to clear it of debt, the government response, has been to attempt to replace the now defunct private debt economic turbocharger with a public one.
In the immediate term, the stupendous size of the stimulus has worked, so that debt in total is still boosting aggregate demand. But what will happen when the government stops turbocharging the economy, and waits anxiously for the private system to once again splutter into life?

I am afraid that all it will do is splutter.
This is especially so since, following the advice of neoclassical economists, Obama has got not a bang but a whimper out of the many bucks he has thrown at the financial system.
In explaining his recovery program in April, President Obama noted that:
“there are a lot of Americans who understandably think that government money would be better spent going directly to families and businesses instead of banks – ‘where’s our bailout?,’ they ask”.
He justified giving the money to the lenders, rather than to the debtors, on the basis of “the multiplier effect” from bank lending:
the truth is that a dollar of capital in a bank can actually result in eight or ten dollars of loans to families and businesses, a multiplier effect that can ultimately lead to a faster pace of economic growth. (page 3 of the speech)
This argument comes straight out of the neoclassical economics textbook. Fortunately, due to the clear manner in which Obama enunciates it, the flaw in this textbook argument is vividly apparent in his speech.
This “multiplier effect” will only work if American families and businesses are willing to take on yet more debt: “a dollar of capital in a bank can actually result in eight or ten dollars of loans”.
So the only way the roughly US$1 trillion of money that the Federal Reserve has injected into the banks will result in additional spending is if American families and businesses take out another US$8-10 trillion in loans.
What are the odds that this will happen, when they already owe more than they have ever owed in the history of America? The next chart inverts the usual portrayal of America’s debt to GDP ratio by inverting it: the top of the graph represents zero debt, the bottom, a debt to GDP ratio of 300 percent—which is just shy of the current ratio of 292 percent.
If the money multiplier was going to “ride to the rescue”, private debt would need to rise from its current level of US$41.5 trillion to about US$50 trillion, and this ratio would rise to about 375%—more than twice the level that ushered in the Great Depression.
This is a rescue? It’s a “hair of the dog” cure: having booze for breakfast to overcome the feelings of a hangover from last night’s binge. It is the road to debt alcoholism, not the road to teetotalism and recovery.

Fortunately, it’s a “cure” that is also highly unlikely to work, because the model of money creation that Obama’s economic advisers have sold him was shown to be empirically false over three decades ago.
The first economist to establish this was the American Post Keynesian economist Basil Moore, but similar results were found by two of the staunchest neoclassical economists, Nobel Prize winners Kydland and Prescott in a 1990 paper Real Facts and a Monetary Myth.
Looking at the timing of economic variables, they found that credit money was created about 4 periods before government money. However, the “money multiplier” model argues that government money is created first to bolster bank reserves, and then credit money is created afterwards by the process of banks lending out their increased reserves.
Kydland and Prescott observed at the end of their paper that:
Introducing money and credit into growth theory in a way that accounts for the cyclical behavior of monetary as well as real aggregates is an important open problem in economics.
I couldn’t agree more, but unfortunately they—and neoclassical economists in general—did bugger all about it. On the other hand, the Post Keynesian group, of whom I am one, have continued to try to construct models of the economy in which credit plays an essential role.
I’ve recently developed a genuinely monetary, credit-driven model of the economy, and one of its first insights is that Obama has been sold a pup on the right way to stimulate the economy: he would have got far more bang for his buck by giving the stimulus to the debtors rather than the creditors.
The following figure shows three simulations of this model in which a change in the willingness of lenders to lend and borrowers to borrow causes a “credit crunch” in year 25. In year 26, the government injects $100 billion into the economy—which at that stage has output of about $1,000 billion, so it’s a pretty huge injection, in two different ways: it injects $100 billion into bank reserves, or it puts $100 billion into the bank accounts of firms, who are the debtors in this model.

The model shows that you get far more “bang for your buck” by giving the money to firms, rather than banks. Unemployment falls in both case below the level that would have applied in the absence of the stimulus, but the reduction in unemployment is far greater when the firms get the stimulus, not the banks: unemployment peaks at over 18 percent without the stimulus, just over 13 percent with the stimulus going to the banks, but under 11 percent with the stimulus being given to the firms.
The time path of the recession is also greatly altered. The recession is shorter with the stimulus, but there’s actually a mini-boom in the middle of it with the firm-directed stimulus, versus a simply lower peak to unemployment with the bank-directed stimulus.
Why does this model show that it’s better to give the money to the debtors than the lenders, in contrast to the case that Obama was sold, that it’s better to give it to the bankers?
Because the “money multiplier” model is effectively a mechanical, static, equilibrium model of the economy. Give the banks excess reserves, and they will lend them to the public, which will happily take on the debt. Once the reserves are fully lent out, the economy is back to equilibrium again.
In contrast, my model is a dynamic, non-equilibrium one, where the “circular flow” of money and goods is properly accounted for. In this system, you can think of the different bank accounts in the system as like dams with pipes connecting them of vastly different diameters.
When a credit crunch strikes, the pipes pumping the bank reserves to the firms shrink dramatically, while the pipe going in the opposite direction expands, and all other pipes remain the same size.
If you then fill up the bank reserves reservoir—by the government pumping the extra $100 billion into it—that money will only trickle into the economy slowly. If however you put that money into the firms’ bank accounts, it would flow at an unchanged rate to the rest of the economy—the workers—while flowing more quickly to the banks as well, reducing debt levels.
So giving the stimulus to the debtors is a more potent way of reducing the impact of a credit crunch—the opposite of the advice given to Obama by his neoclassical advisers.
This could also be one reason that the Australian experience has been better than the USA’s: the stimulus in Australia has emphasized funding the public rather than the banks (and the model shows the same impact from giving money to the workers as from giving it to the firms—and for the same reason, that workers have to spend, so that the money injected into the economy circulates more rapidly.
This model can explain some aspects of the current US data that are inexplicable from the conventional, neoclassical point of view—the key paradox being that while base money (“M0”) has been increased dramatically, there has been almost no movement in broader measures of money (“M1” and “M2”). If the money multiplier argument were correct, the increases in M1 and M2 would have been multiples of the increase in M0, as Obama was led to expect.

In fact, the expansion in M0 has been met by a fall in the credit-generated component of the money supply: since M2 includes all of M1 and M1 includes all of M0, this is clearer when we substract the double-counting out. M1 has actually contracted almost as much as M0 has expanded, while the expansion in M2 has been less than a third the size of the growth in M0.

The “money multiplier” has also collapsed—a mystery from a neoclassical point of view, but entirely predictable from the “endogenous money” perspective.

Obama has been sold a pup by neoclassical economics: not only did neoclassical theory help cause the crisis, by championing the growth of private debt and the asset bubbles it financed; it also is undermining efforts to reduce the severity of the crisis.
This is unfortunately the good news: the bad news is that this model only considers an economy undergoing a “credit crunch”, and not also one suffering from a serious debt overhang that only a direct reduction in debt can tackle. That is our actual problem, and while a stimulus will work for a while, the drag from debt-deleveraging is still present. The economy will therefore lapse back into recession soon after the stimulus is removed.



Here is the latest marc faber rant against everything that is going on with the financial markets.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1275472222&play=1
The video is 10+ minutes long but he only gets going from about the 6.30 minute mark.
I have always found him amusing! If you get a chance ask him what he really thinks about the G20 and the Fed.
mahaish, I think the chartalist position doesn’t really worry too much about trust and faith. The basic premise is I think:
1) if private sector fails to invest all savings (say because of a liquidity trap), then we the state will do it for you. This means the state will become enlarged to compensate for private sector retrenchment. The state will become as large as it needs to fill the gap in the output of the private sector.
2) we shun foreign creditors and issue debt only to our own population. In any case, when we have explained our aims, no foreign buyers will be forthcoming in any case. As long as our population wishes to save, we can spend those savings. If they wish to dis-save, then we can cut back government spending.
3) we don’t care what the exchange rate is. If people don’t want to buy our currency, fine.
4) domestic demand for our currency will always be there, since we demand taxes in it. This will work as long as this chartalist government is in power.
It’s a very modern form of socialism. Market socialism if you like. In that sense it’s not a new concept. It is also pretty much compatible with the aims of those who advocate that governments should issue their own debt free currency. That’s why I say it is very much like the old social credit ideas.
You haven’t pre-empted anything Mahaish,
Instead you’ve identified a very useful critique on Chartalism from a non-neoclassical perspective that (a) I recommend everyone here who’s interested in this topic read and (b) I’ll reference it in the next “Hard Being a Bear” post.
Richard Posner is an interesting case, considering he is a conservative lawyer/economist. He is known for advocating markets in babies!
Market/technical/elliotwave update,
All markets reversed this week. Is this a new trend or just a break before the bullish trend continues?
The Bullish Percent Index registered two days over 88 and one over 89 in the past week. This index reached the mid 70s at the time of the ’07 market top. I am not aware of a reading over 89 before.
The stock markets completed 5 waves up last week.
$US bearishness hit an extreme of just over 97%
The main US indexes hit their 200 sma and reversed lower.
The stock markets fell in 5 waves and is possibly part way through a 3 wave retracement. Very bearish if that plays out.
Several MacD indicators reversed their 6 month trend and headed down on Thursday.
Chinese stock market has led the declines (started falling off its peak in August) just like in ’07.
Baltic dry index retraced its lows in 3 waves and turned down in July. This is a bearish non-confirmation with the stock markets.
There are many more indicators that are reading extremes as well.
What does all this mean? Before I answer let me disclose that I have a bias toward deflation. It makes the most sense to me from what I see around me and what I read. I also use elliot waves and technical analysis which is subjective and can be affected by bias. In saying that, below is some critical numbers to watch over the next week or even Monday/Tuesday.
If the S&P falls below 1,039 a large trend line is broken and an elliot wave overlap occurs signaling the likelihood of lower lows ahead. S&P traded at 1041 today.
Should the S&P trade above 1080 (current high), I will look for one more small 5 wave move up and more strongly consider that to be a long term top. Somewhere between 1092 and 1112.
Should the S&P head below 1000 this coming week. Then turn off the lights IMO. It will retrace, but the next wave down after that retracement should be devastating.
A third possibility is that the markets fall for a few weeks and then commence a third upwards correction. Given the extremes of several technical indicators I think this is unlikely.
I do not claim to know the future. The markets could go up or down. Based on the weight of evidence IMO I suspect soon enough it will be much more down than up.
The retail investors are completely oblivious to the war that has been waged over the last 6 months between bulls and bears. In march market bulls (based on DSI) got down to 2%. Last week the DSI bull reading was at 93%. The bulls have won the war. Or so it would seem. What has actually happened is that all the bears (everyone at the time) became bulls again. Will that trend hold or will it reverse? I’m tipping a reversal is at hand. The retail investors are not aware of any of these technical indicators. They are just seduced when their Westpac shares rise in price.
Good luck to all. I think we are nearing a time when it will be hard to be a bull or a bear. At least the bears may be a little better prepared that the bulls.
One more comment. As the stock markets begin selling off hard again in the next few months. Watch how the media becomes quickly negative again. Fear will rise dramatically. Swine flu or the like will probably jump back into the headlines again.
Here’s my question about Chartalism:
Why does it matter?
Identify a single transaction in the monetary system that would change depending on whether you consider Chartalism to be operative or not.
So why does it matter?
Apart from that, it seems like a somewhat rag tag collection of statements and beliefs that are independent of understanding how the modern monetary system operates. E.g. you don’t need to be a chartalist to understand that credit creates money or that central banks have methods of intervening in the market.
Hi BTB,
Good technical summary. Being bearish I tend to agree however my suspicion is that when the top does come few bears will accept that it has arrived. Thus the market dupes both bulls and bears. There will be the now inevitable “buy the dips” mantra, after all it has worked so well in the past , right? All the way down to 3 of 3.
But that will not cause Clive James or Koshie from spruiking the coming decline all the way down as a great buying opportunity.
The buy and hold investing method is dead. For many years ahead, gains will come from timing investment decisions. This coming C wave down will bare the lie that is most mainstream financial advice, which in itself is a very good thing. People should be more aware of how their own money is being invested and under what circumstances. Stocks and therefore super investments face potential wipe outs. After 2 bubbles bursting (dotcom and assets) in a decade in which stocks were decimated in both , we will shortly face the bursting here of another bubble- property. Those who are investors and especially super funded retirees need to understand and prepare for the possibility of a serious decline in the indexes and then years of no/low nett returns on stocks.
I believe Steve’s best point is:
“due to the clear manner in which Obama enunciates it, the flaw in this textbook argument is vividly apparent in his speech”. It points out the problem that most bothers me – how to get those who wrote & work from the textbook to admit the flaw?
Surely the NYT will see the merit in reporting the evidence and hosting and publishing a debate, particularly while there is growing public scepticism as to why Wall St deserved bailouts but Main St did not. Not only will NYT’s ordinary readers be first to discover that the evidence discredits Obama’s advisors, there’s a good chance that his own family and friends will alert him to the flaws.
So how do we get the editors [not just of NYT] to break the story that Obama’s advisors [and I suspect Wall St bankers] want suppressed? What about Steve’s local media connections? Could we get Lateline to host a debate focussed on the Obama statement. Michael Hudson’s visit would also be a good ‘hook’.
Such an interview would be worth broadcasting, and even more newsworthy, if Obama’s advisors were invited by the ABC, but all declined to appear!
Also is Michael Hudson well connected? Does he know who would have prepared Obama’s clear but flawed understanding of what banks do? Could that author be willing to examine the evidence and report the facts directly to the President?
I hope other readers will come up with more suggestions for alerting the US public to the evidence against Obama’s flawed advice.
RE #368 “Excellent news for a Friday. Let the great economic enema begin!…”
Er, can I just apologise for the over-exuberant tone in this post. In retrospect I realise that it was somewhat out of order. What I should have said was “22 years overdue, better late than never”.
I realise there might be little to smile about in the next decade or two on the economic front as debt levels contract, except maybe for owners of supermarkets and hardware stores. Hopefully it will be a time of renewal without too much uncertainty.
B
I’ve been watching the discussion here for a few weeks, but can’t resist responding to the comments on chartalism.
First, as one of the “card carrying members” of the chartalist “camp” or whatever one wants to call it, I would mostly disagree with scepticus’s depiction of chartalism–he gets some of the big pieces right for sure, but the tone is altogether wrong and many nuances are missed, and it would certainly be news to Warren Mosler to hear that he’s a socialist! JKH actually gets closer, in my view, which may be surprising to him/her (though I would certainly take issue with “rag tag,” as I would challenge anyone to suggest that books/articles/chapters by Wray/Mitchell/Hudson and others on the subject, for instance, have been anything short of serious scholarship, whether one agrees with the conclusions or not).
The overarching point when the neo-chartaslist “movement” started in the late 1990s was more of an historical one and related to understanding how modern government money came to be. There’s a modern aspect, of course, related to the abilities of a govt issuing its own currency under flexible exchange rates to manage the economy, which complements the historical analysis, but as JKH notes, one doesn’t have to be a card carrying chartalist to agree with this modern depiction.
And that’s the point . . . our approach to modern monetary systems (and note that Bill Mitchell uses this term, not chartalism, far more often) is about understanding the operational side of banking, central banks, and treasury interactions. I still haven’t found anyone who has seriously studied all of these that has disagreed in any meaningful way with our depiction here. As a final note here, in reply to a recent critic on the KC blog who argued that chartalists had modern operations right but history wrong, perhaps much like JKH and Mitchell, Wray essentially said something like ‘fine, we agree on the important stuff.’ I suppose in an academic setting the answer might have been a bit different, but not altogether.
(By the way, regarding the historical side of this, Michael Hudson’s one of the key researchers providing support of the Chartalist view of money.)
Second, Eladio’s paper is a complete misinterpretation of chartalism. Anybody using that paper to discredit chartalism doesn’t understand chartalism. At least none of the “card carrying members” will pay any attention to any critique founded on that paper or others like it. I don’t want to use too much space or precious time discussing that paper, but let’s just consider quickly the three points of criticism made in that paper:
1. He uses the EMU as a counter to the chartalist argument that money has value b/c it is used to settle taxes. Apparently he hasn’t read much of anything Randy has written, b/c Randy’s noted numerous times that EMU is NOT an example of a sovereign currency-issuer for precisely the reasons Eladio mentions. If he’d read the chartalism literature instead of the literature critquing chartalism, he might have noticed that.
2. His critique of the chartalist point that the state controls the value of money misinterprets the chartalist argument. There’s a lot here I could say, but I’ll just make one point (it’s not a complete refutation, granted): Mosler’s 1998 JPKE paper explained rather clearly that the position was that government deficits RELATIVE to private sector desires to spend is what sets aggregate demand. Thus (a) it’s too simplistic to state the point as Eladio does, (b) the chartalist view here is a theory of aggregate demand, and should not be considered inconsistent with approaches such as the PK wage-conflict view.
3. Eladio misinterprets chartalist use of the term “leverage” and their suggestion that “state money precedes private money” to mean something like the money multiplier. It’s beyond me how anyone could ever read Wray, Mosler, myself, etc., and come to this conclusion, but several have. In short, it’s simply wrong . . . we are in complete agreement with the endogenous money view of banking and there’s nothing inconsistent with it and chartalism. See Wray’s edited volume “credit and state theories of money,” Mosler’s paper “soft currency economics,” or Mosler/Forstater’s paper on a “general framework for the analysis of money and other commodities” or something like that (both on Mosler’s site). Here again, Eladio relies on critics of chartalism that had also misinterpreted the chartalist view.
OK, I’ll stop there. Like Mahaish, I hope I haven’t pre-empted anything. Best to everyone.
Scott Fullwiler
@Mediamonitor,
I agree that the truth about these Wall Street firms needs to come out. One problem: the Stateside MSM is owned by a small number of megacorporations. And their board of directors don’t want the on-air staff to tell the truth.
Same thing in newspapers. If you go to the progressive media, some people will hear you. But that’s the end of it.
In the U.K., I’m seeing much of the same thing. How many companies control the Australian MSM? Talk radio is almost all right wing. Any Murdoch owned outlet would never go for this. Again, it’s the same problem.
As for SBS, they seem like the only ones who would actually give this a go? Just a thought.
Thanks Scott,
I was about to post a blog entry with a section on chartalism written by Bill Mitchell, in which I referred favourably to that paper by Eladio. However the part I found good about it was a particular section, which I will now highlight before I post the blog entry. And I’ll let Bill know that too.
Hi GSM,
I agree totally. There are very few bears left now. Those that are left are too scared to short as they have been getting creamed for a long time now. Plus the emotional pressure applied by the herd is turning many long term bears bullish.
Also markets move in waves that are ambiguous. What looks like a wave up to a new high, can stop and turns down. This leaves the bulls to hang on for a new top. The bears also can miss the turn and as the market gaps down the bears fear a turn and stay away as well. As the market marches lower the risk of a failed short entry increases.
I agree, it takes balls to trade in this environment. Failure is highly likely. IMO the retail longs are taking much more risk than the strategic shorts and swing traders, they just don’t know it. The risk of staying long in this crazy environment is insane. The retail investors are just plain unaware of the technical evidence. Only time will tell if this is right though. Technicals can stay out of whack for a long time, but not forever. If the market rallies on to 10,500 then the bulls will be even more confident and add more risk. The few remaining bears will quit in disgrace.
Many bulls believe that buy the dips will result in wealth and very few bears believe the markets will plumb new lows. Most bears are just looking for a short term pullback. That leaves the door open for the markets to cause max pain by going lower. Doesn’t mean it will happen, of course.
PS What about the comments on pages 8-9 of the paper on how the Chartalist view gells with endogenous money? I agree about the mechanisms of the creation of fiat money; what I want to see is how these meld with the creation of credit money. This I think is one of the areas needing clarification in both the Chartalist and Circuitist schools.
Some people trying to make some financial sense out of the G20 meeting are disappointed; Marc Faber called it a total waste of time. After putting the “banker’s bonus” on the catwalk, the PTB turn the spotlight on Iran. Why can’t treasury departments deal with the banks? Why raise the mundane issue of banker’s bonus to the same level as Iran’s nuclear power facilities? Are the banking issues being beat up to camouflage a pretext for war? They must be mad. I wonder if a war in the Persian Gulf would be inflationary or deflationary. This is important to any investment strategy.
Try scenario number one:
- The threat of war would be deflationary, because people would hesitate to invest.
- The act of war would range from inflationary to hyperinflationary, because nations would print money to fund the war efforts.
- A victory against Iran would be highly deflationary because people think that cheap oil would become available.
- A defeat would be highly hyperinflationary because nations would have to print money to fund war reparations and compensations.
I am already feeling too dizzy to think about other possible scenarios.
I’m up too late, Steve, but saw your PS and will give it a quick go.
In short, both of Eladio’s “interpretations” on those pages are incorrect.
Interaction of credit and state money has been covered a number of times, including the two papers on Mosler’s site I cited, Mosler/Mitchell’s 2005 CofFEE wp, Wray’s 2003-4 JPKE paper (“do credit cards matter” or something like that), and Wray’s papers on credit/state theories of money from 2004 (the intro to the book was probably the best one, though), my paper in the 2005 jei, and so forth.
I just returned from Toronto for the second time in a few months and several of the best known Canadian members of the horizontalist school (I’m sure you know who I’m talking about) were there both times. In my opinion, there is no disagreement b/n them and the chartalists on the mechanics of government money and bank credit, though that wasn’t always the case, for sure. This probably just further reinforces JKH’s point.
To be brief,
1. Bank liabilities are endogenously created, irrespective of the qty of reserves
2. Banks use reserves only to settle payments or meet rr, not to make loans/deposits (as in 1 above)
3. CBs provide reserves on demand to banks at stated target or penalty rates for these purposes (assuming target rate is above the remuneration rate)
4. Govt spending creates reserves/deposits and taxation destroys reserves/deposits
5. A govt deficit thus adds to reserves on net and a surplus subtracts on net
6. Either the govt or the cb must offset this net change to reserves (in the case of a deficit or surplus) with bond sales/purchases or other operations (repos/loans), since not doing so would send the overnight rate away from the cb’s target (again, assuming the target rate is above the remuneration rate). Thus, govt bond sales are related to monetary policy, not deficit finance.
7. Other interest rates (loans, etc.) are set generally as horizontalists have suggested, with banks meeting creditworthy demand (assuming loans are regulator approved and capital requirements are not violated).
Again, as JKH noted, you don’t have to be a card-carrying chartalist to agree with this. Where some disagreement comes in is the further move to policy proposals . . . Scepticus got some of the proposals generally right (again, some important nuances missed), but left out the operational side, which is the most important in our minds. And while non-chartalists can agree with the operational side, it’s still an important defining feature for us since we started our analysis there and (as far as I can tell) we were the first ones to do so.
Best,
Scott Fullwiler
The Inflation/Deflation debate continues in part 3 of this weeks Financial Sense news hour
http://www.financialsense.com/fsn/main.html
- Ernie.
OK Scott, thanks. When I have the time–which won’t be till early next year–I’ll check those references and see whether I can integrate the money creation mechanics of both groups (Chartalist and Circuitist). I take it that on that front both groups would agree that there are two independent but inter-related money creation mechanisms in a modern economy–state-fiat and bank-credit? Obviously my interest has been to first model the latter; the Chartalist approach seems to be to understand the mechanics of the former first.
I also have a number of policy queries which I’ll raise after I run the post with Bill’s precis of the Chartalist case, probably tomorrow. I’d be pleased if you take an active role in the discussions that will flow from it.
Scott,
To be clear, I didn’t mean “rag tag” in the sense of the seriousness of the historic scholarship, which is impressive and quite interesting.
I meant it only in the sense of clarifying why it is a particularly necessary and unique set of ideas as applied to an understanding of the modern monetary system.
“Here’s my question about Chartalism: why does it matter”
hi jhk,
i think it matters alot, when we have the government projecting deficits of upto 300 billion, and the media trot out economists who continually make the mistake of
1.equating deficits with debt, when it may not necesserally be so.
2. alluding to deficits being about fiscal policy when it may have just as much to do with monetary policy.
3. and as a consequence harp on sbout deficits putting upward pressure on interest rates when it may infact be the opposite.
i’m sure there’s more, but i’ll leave it to the experts to fill in any yawning gaps or erronouse misrepresentations on my behalf for which i apologise.
i say “may”, because i havn’t made up my mind yet on the noble order of chartilist yet, will have to wait for the avalanche of reasoning for the affirmative and negative in future blogs before i share a bonfire with them
Immediately after the disappearance of former PM Harold Holt while diving off Cheviot Beach, a physical model was quickly constructed. Once the hydrological conditions were simulated, a doll was thrown into the model and its path over a couple of tidal cycles was traced. George Draper, The technical officer who carried out the model study was then flown to Cheviot Beach to direct the search operation on site. Needless to say, the effort was futile. It was speculated later that Mr Holt was not drowned but was actually picked up under the water by a submarine and taken to the US to start a life under an assumed identity. If the body was successfully recovered, the hydraulics model and George would have been written into the Australian history, but how could George guess that he should put a submarine in his model? What you put into the model decide what come out of it. But exactly what should be put into the model; that’s the problem.
Anyway, the Australian history is full of people who don’t muck around with models. Rory Jack Thompson is one of them. He certainly didn’t muck around.
Rouge waves are well-known killers at water’s edge; they can just rise up from nowhere and snatch the unsuspecting fisherman from the rock. Why don’t people construct models that predict rouge wave? Rory Jack Thompson was a renowned rouge wave expert. I sat thru his talk on rouge waves a few weeks before he cut off his wife’s head and put in on the stove, but I can’t recall he ever talked about how to use model to predict rouge waves. If he did, we probably can use the model to predict blackswan events.
JKH . . . ok, I can live with that.
Steve . . . I think you’ve got it. Will try to take part.
@jkh “Here’s my question about Chartalism: Why does it matter?”
Identify a single transaction in the monetary system that would change depending on whether you consider Chartalism to be operative or not.”
Oh it matters. It matters if the chartalist interpretation is correct yet policy makers everywhere have the tools to solve a crisis yet remain either ignorant of the fact the tools they need are in front of them, or have been forbidden to use them because they are still trapped by a neoliberal dogma that is founded to serve a very narrow and entrenched set of interests.
When I used the term socialist I was not being perjorative, since I admit that I lean in that direction myself, albeit with a less centralised, kind of left ‘libertarian’ outlook the most people don’t associate with traditional socialism. However I agree the socialist tag is loaded and so should probably be avoided with regard to chartalism.
It seems to me we can understand chartalism in layman terms by thinking of the government as a bank, having:
- depositors (bond holders and currency holders)
- shareholders (taxpayers)
- assets (everything owned publicly including buildings, military forces etc)
- a number of subsidiary companies (commercial banks).
Clearly in this case the deficit is safe as long as all the depositors don’t try and withdraw their money at once, and the deficit is only limited by the desire to deposit in this bank.
What really really matters here, if the chartalist view represents reality, is not the nitty gritty of the economics, but the braod strokes of how the political economy should be organised so that it may safely wield the power granted therein.
One aspect of bills writing I find confusing is, when he is just outlining charatlist economics, and when he is making excursions into the realm of politics, representsing his own view on how chartalist economics should be apllied in our lives.
I hope some of this can be cleared up in the next post. I must say, these ideas are the first time I have encountered an economic outlook which seems both plausible and offering some hope for the future.
Thanks, Scepticus . . . got a better idea where you are coming from.
Regarding this point you made:
“Clearly in this case the deficit is safe as long as all the depositors don’t try and withdraw their money at once, and the deficit is only limited by the desire to deposit in this bank.”
I’m not sure what you mean by “safe” or if I was getting the overall analogy at all. My interpretation of your analogy would be that if by depositors we mean “savers,” then the deficit SHOULD be limited to offsetting their desire to save. If they desire not to, then they are spending, and the deficit SHOULD be smaller. To run a bigger deficit raises aggregate demand beyond capacity.
Again, though, this policy proposal is not exclusively chartalist.
Bets,
Scott Fullwiler
OK mahaish, I have to say it–I do enjoy the little twists you put in your posts. The “share a bonfire” gave me a nice little morning giggle!