It’s Hard Being a Bear (Part Three): Good Economic History
on September 5th, 2009 at 11:57 am“Green shoots” are appearing everywhere—just read the newspapers, and you can be assured that we’ve turned the corner. Bar the latest rise in US unemployment—up 0.3% to 9.7%, after falling 0.1% the previous month—there’s nothing but good news as far as the eye can see.
Unless, that is, you take a look at a wider range of data, as economic historians Barry Eichengreen and Kevin O’Rourke have been doing in their series “A Tale of Two Depressions”.
They have now published three installments of this study, which collates data from a number of countries and compares it to the same information in the 1930s—taking June 1929 as the starting point for the Great Depression, and April 2008 as the same for our current “Great Recession”.
Their latest installment was published on September 1st, and it does indeed show some signs of a turnaround—“green shoots” perhaps. But their comparison of today with the 1930s still reaches the conclusion that “today’s crisis remains dramatic by the standards of the Great Depression”.
The key improvement they see in the current data over that for the 1930s is an uptick in world industrial production, which has risen by about 2% (compared to peak output in April 2008) in the last four months from its low of 88%. This now puts it substantially above the comparable period in the 1930s, when by this stage industrial output had fallen to 81% of its peak.

However, they express the concern that this turnaround reflects the gigantic government stimuli that have been applied in the last year, and the continuance of a positive trend now relies upon the private sector taking over:
“The question now is whether final demand for this increased production will materialise or whether consumer spending, especially in the US, will remain weak, causing the increase in production to go into inventories, leading firms to cut back subsequently, and resulting in a double dip recession.”
There are signs of good news elsewhere too—notably in stock markets and world trade. However, these aren’t as robust as a focus solely on the US indices and Japan’s exports might imply. Though world stock markets have rebounded, they are still slightly below their comparable levels in the 1930s.

The world trade figure is more telling. Neoclassical economists have often pointed at restrictions to world trade as one reason the Great Depression was as bad as it was—citing in particular the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act in the United States. In fact this Act was signed into law in June 1930, one year after Eichengreen & O’Rourke’s reference date for the start of the Great Depression. By that time, world trade had already fallen about 8% below its peak level; 3 months later had fallen a further 2%.
15 months into our modern-day crisis, and with no such protectionist legislation even being contemplated, world trade had fallen 20% below its peak.

The recent 1% uptick in world trade volumes is welcome, but it still puts us well below the 1930s.
This in itself is a reflection of how much world industrial output has been globalised in the last thirty years, which is in part why the crisis spread very rapidly from the USA to the rest of the world. In the 1930s, the vast majority of the USA’s industrial needs were met by its own factories, so the downturn hit its own industries and workers first and hardest. Today, the heavy blows also fell on the world’s industrial exporters—notably Japan and Germany.
One obvious statistic that Eichengreen and O’Rourke don’t use is the unemployment rate. I suspect this might reflect justified skepticism about the comparability of the modern measure to the old; the current ILO definition is so tight that recorded unemployment today is far lower than it would be were the 1930s standard applied (conversely, there were many Swagmen in the 1930s who would be classified as fully employed on the current standard).
A more comparable statistic for the USA is the U-6 measure, which includes most (but not all) discouraged workers. That now stands at 16.8%, up from 16.3% last month—versus the official rate of 9.7%. And though recorded unemployment is worsening much more slowly than in the 1930s, the U-6 measure is deteriorating more quickly now than it did in the 1930s, and it started at a far worse position.
A similar pattern applies in Australia. Roy Morgan Research prepares a U-6 like-measure that now stands at 16.6%—and their survey also disputes the ABS’s measure of formal unemployment rate, which they put at 7.8%, 2% higher than the ABS.
So “green shoots”, or selective reporting? There is no doubt that the immense government stimulus packages across the world have slowed the rush into Depression. But the force that caused the crisis in the first place—excessive private debt accumulated in a Ponzi Scheme laundered through share and house-price bubbles—is still with us. Until that debt is addressed, the downward rush of deleveraging is likely to resume as soon as governments wind back their spending in the false hope that the crisis is over.
I’ll finish with an extract from what has become one of my favourite daily reads—the “News from 1930” blog. On Thursday September 4th 1930, the Wall Street Journal reported that the Harvard Economic Society said there is “every prospect that the [business] recovery … will not long be delayed.”



Steve, demographics are crucial, perhaps more crucial than anything else including debt (which can be inflated of forgiven), but in general they get lost in the noise – for now, we kind of have the calm before the storm if you know what I mean. We’re seeing the start of a long term crisis in things like for example the fact the UK final salary pension schemes are £1tn underfunded (I believe).
However, I do suspect that in certain cases, the effects are imminent, and the oz housing market may be one of those cases, if the demographic turning point is indeed approaching for you guys. I’m familiar with some of dent’s work, I believe he predicted a banking crisis using the the passing of the 50-55 age group bulge in the US as a basis.
Certainly I believe this is the other shoe still to drop, besides debt (which has already come into the limelight), and it is likely to be at least as severe a blow to the economy as the debt bubble.
The other interesting thing about this is that it presents some very severve problems for the chartalist camp, since deficits will become increasingly unsustainable as the population ages and later declines. Not only do deficits become more burdensome as time passes, but crucially public expectations about future growth will be affected, and my understanding is that taxpayer and market expectations of the long term/inter-generational future are critical to chartalist theory.
“You don’t need to be an “expert” to see where the U.S. economy is headed.”
IMO the US like much of the rest of the west is headed for negative interest rates, nominal (via monetary policy) or real (via fiscal policy) it doesn’t matter which. Maybe not for a while yet but it will happen. There is no possible other route out.
Some folks, like the chartalists like to consider how we can build a bridge over mess but don’t seem to understand that the far shoreline, probably a minumum of 5 years away already, is receeding all the while as a result of the demographics. In 10 years today’s prime consumers will be dying out or downsizing all over the globe. The japanese have tried building that bridge, and find they are still out over deep water.
The upside may be that peak oil is postponed.
Joe B,
I agree that maximising GDP is wrong and unsustainable. But my concerns are rather “orthogonal” to what you have written. To me building an economy based on demand (growing consumption) when we are close to the peak capacity of our planet is the root cause of the problems. Falling population (what is obviously good for the survival of our species) is another factor making the current model unsustainable. Building consumption on unsustainable credit-based Ponzi schemas only makes things worse.
I don’t think that we should complain that fiat money is not good as a storage of value. Gold money was better for that but it failed on other fronts. As long as fiat money is good as a medium of exchange and allows for modern states to implement right social policies – I am happy. As long as I can use paper (or credit) dollars to buy and sell goods and services (and don’t have to use coupons as in 1985 in Poland) – I am happy. If I want to save or invest – there are other good instruments available. The role of deferred consumption (savings) in building healthy economy has been exaggerated. I think that it might be interesting for you to visit the website of prof Mitchell to see his views about the role of the modern state.
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/
Sweden is not a commodity-based economy – Norway is. I don’t think that welfare redistribution makes them less sustainable than Hong Kong.
I have nothing against maximising individual happiness – to me there should be simply a balance between individual goals and welfare of the other members of the society. There is no simple contradiction there.
Now comes the main point of this post (might be difficult to understand for someone not born in Poland/Russia/China).
If there is no strong state acting as an arbiter the vacuum will not be filled by freedom of individuals – it will be filled either by power of corporations (USA) or lawlessness of cleptocrats (Russia 1991-1999 or China before 1949).
I asked for a positive example of a country where this process didn’t happen and I don’t think that there is any encouragement in what I go as the response.
I think that the US is at the same stage of degeneration of the state structure as Poland circa 1770 – magnates (corporations, the military-industrial complex and banks) wield the power of veto over any decisions of the central government. Poland was the freest country (unless you were a serf) but the freedom was abused and the foreign powers started meddling there. Currently the Fed is a puppet of banks and because of that nothing can be changed in the banking system. The history has repeated itself – Kosciuszko and Pulaski came to America to help establish the United States when Poland was falling apart. Now the US has reached the same stage of social and economical anarchy for the same reasons – there is no political centre of power able to impose decisions based on common social interest on magnates (banks, corporations and the military-industrial complex). Giving yet more “freedom” will not change anything – it is not lack of freedom and coercion but degeneration of the system.
That’s why I believe in a strong democratic state rather than anarchist utopia.
I have no problem paying 30+% taxes as long as the state provides me with basic services of reasonable quality (Australia). I never considered moving to the US because there is something wrong with the society based on maximising individual wealth which cannot take care of 10% of its citizens nor even give them a chance to look after themselves.
To me state is not evil but I don’t worship it. I lived in a slightly more evil system for 22 years so I can tell the difference. The Soviet Union collapsed for different reasons – not because of bailouts but this is another issue.
I think that we have reached cul-de-sac in our consumption-driven capitalist model where corporations have more power than democratic states. This problem has even been made worse by the degeneration of imperial power in the US. I only hope that we will not lose our personal freedoms trying to sort out our problems.
Scepticus,
Harry Dent’s book, The Great Depression Ahead, is an dry but good read on demographics and his modeling on peak spending is interesting.
His basic premise is that individuals reach peak spending at about 47/48. He then uses this to model the effect of that on the whole economy.
He came out with some interesting observations including that the west will reach peak spending in 2008/2009 and from then consumer spending will drop due to aging populations and that demographic modeling shows that this will continue for the next 10 years.
He has back tested his modeling and this has shown that the same pattern occured in late 1929 and also in Japan in 1987.
I think Dent has at times been his own worse enemy when it comes to acceptance as alongside his theories he also makes some outlandish predictions – however (as I have said before on this blog) if you ignore the the specific predictions and work through to general premise of his theories im sure you will get a lot from his work.
Scepticus,
Further to my above comments, Dent in his book does an analysis of all major geographical areas and includes Australia in his modeling.
He broadly concludes that due to immigration he does not expect a substantial drop in Australian house prices but he does state that he beieves that they will track sideways for some time.
This is a position supported by some that house prices will remain stagnant for the forseeable future to allow incomes to catch up.
Can one of your grad students send me the text to the ABC “Big Ideas” lecture referenced here, as I cannot find it:
http://hireme.geek.nz/0th-law-of-Microeconomics-and-Macroeconomics.html
I want to credit you, and get all my text straight.
Due to an FTP clog up the current version on the web does not mention the radio lecture series, but on my hard drive it does.
My calling it the “0th Law” is based on thermodynamics, but the same principal applies. I have not read your book yet, but I don’t know if you ever concluded the obvious: no economic law or principal can negate an accounting law or principal … all economics comes out of accounting.
My email:
dist23 at juno dot com
Hi aspadistra,
Unfortunately there is no transcript, but the audio is available at:
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2009/03/bia_20090329.mp3
For a written and citable outline of my analysis, use these two new papers:
The Dynamics of the Monetary Circuit, in The Political Economy Of Monetary Circuits: Tradition And Change In Post-Keynesian Economics, edited by Jean-François Ponsot and Sergio Rossi (Palgrave, 2009, pp. 161-187); and
Bailing out the Titanic with a Thimble, Economic Analysis and Policy, Vol 39 Issue 1, pp. 3-24.
I agree with your premise in your draft, and the beauty of the modelling technique that I use in these papers is that is explicitly based on accounting principles.
There is an alternative framework used by a lot of Post Keynesians that Wynne Godley developed; I explain in the first paper above why I think my approach is preferable–though Wynne’s is still preferable to ignoring accounting ideas entirely, as economists normally do.
It appears as if the UK is fast approaching what Denninger calls zero point, or maybe scepticus’s more evocative term “maw of the singularity”
European Commission sees galloping UK debt crisis
Hi Steve,
First of all thank you for all that you say and do – I have only recently become aware of you through a youtube link sent to me. I work as an airline pilot based in Asia – Thankfully in a cheap, tax free, oil rich sultanate. Hopefully at least somewhat sheltered from the shitfight that is the GFC.
I have been saying for years that a dramatic fall in real estate prices was inevitable – but not from any deep understanding of economics – I barely passed economics at high school in the 70s. My view has always been that with real wages being outstripped by real inflation since those feckless morons in Govt (both sides) changed the way inflation was calculated it was just a matter of time – sooner or later houses/the economy must correct because people’s buying power was been eroded at an accelerating rate and there was no incentive to save.
When 75% (likely more than that) of people wages are spent on housing, food and transport how can those things be excluded from inflation calculations?
I saw you say that interest rate manipulation was a fallacious method of inflation control but surely if REAL inflation was recognised the way it was up until the 70s/80s it would at least have a fighting chance? If western Govts had not manipulated the inflation calculation to come up with the completely intellectually dishonest CPI then we would have had an accurate inflation indicator these last 20+ years to base interest rates (both borrowing and savings) on and wage rises.
As it stands we have now had 30 odd years of purchasing power erosion and savings disincentives.
Brgds
On Debt Forgiveness & Jubilees
A few ideas on debt forgiveness have been suggested here, and often it is referenced back to the law under which Israel lived while in the (promised) land, from about 1500BC to 70AD. Just for historical context & current applicability, I will outline the way I think it worked –
There were 2 parts to the law, and it revolved around a pre-set cycle of years.
The Seven Year Cycle – Personal Debts.
For personal indebtedness etc, a person could voluntarily or be forced to sell their service (their labour) to another, until the next 7th year or ‘Year of Release’. Funds received were used to pay out debts owed or provide for their (family) living costs. After which, the individual was released debt free.
The Fifty (Jubilee) Year Cycle – Land Debt
The law was actually within a framework that excluded property speculation. Under their law, (agricultural) land always belonged to a family, and if they got into trouble, then they could ‘sell’ the land for its value until the next year of jubilee (pre-set 50th year).
The original owner could also go with the land during its term and be part of the ‘sale’. The new owner would work the land, and benefit from its increase. But the land could never be sold forever, as it had to return to its original owner or heirs on the 50th year, when he would both have his land and be debt free.
The Jubilee Law of Release did not apply to land within city walls.
Now in the current context of debt forgiveness, the parallels really are not all that similar. Debt forgiveness under the Israelite law was only after service, and at least an attempt at debt repayment. The law they lived under allowed little scope for property speculation.
Seems to me that debt forgiveness may be a noble notion (& the only option), but unless the laws & regulations are changed, then we will only see a repeat of the same foolish speculation that has caused the problem in the first place.
Isn’t that the problem with USA banks, financial institutions & selected industries. They have basically received a form of debt forgiveness, and are now going back to their old tricks. Look at all the M&R activity starting up again. “Let the good times roll”.
Remember the old adage, ‘Behavior that is Rewarded will be Repeated’.
Hi Chuck,
You can’t stop someone borrowing money to speculate on rising asset prices using interest rates alone; if they expect asset price inflation of 50% in a year, they’ll willingly pay 25% to get the money–a level of which would cripple the real economy in an instant. I’d rather find a less brutal, and more effective, way of tempering debt-financed speculation.
I agree with you though on the impact of focusing just on a limited range of commodities in inflation, and ignoring–even championing–inflation in asset prices. The belief that one could increase indefinitely while the other was suppressed was simply madness–papered over by debt until the inevitable bust happened.
Thanks Steve…agree completely with you. Interestingly the Japanese had, I believe, what would be considered draconian capital gains taxation on property speculation (approaching 90%?) and they still ended up in a debt fuelled speculative bubble that ended in disaster – I suspect the US is going down the exact same route but few people besides you and Peter Schiff seem willing to say it out loud. Hopefully Australia won’t be as bad -40% instead of 90% – but I am just staying (virtually) debt free, hiding out in SEA hoping the storm will blow past – my 19 year old daughter just starting out in the world (debt free) is about to get a demonstration in economics that will stand her in good stead the rest of her life – I suspect our parents attitude to real estate – its a place to live not a ‘speculative investment’ might have been the correct one.
Brgds
Chuck
ak,
I agree about the orthogonality of our conversations – this is probably why you and I end up having the same discussion on every post!
I understand your preference for stability over freedom, especially given your personal history. The cost of this stability and the means used to set its price are where I have a problem. But I won’t belabor this any further here.
What I think panarchism can achieve over anarchism is a vacuum-free transitional mechanism. Most people wouldn’t secede from a state if no alternatives to the services provided by that state existed. Maybe these alternatives would be provided by private businesses, or by groups of individuals pooling their resources. It may be that there are no available options that they like any better than the current scenario. I don’t think there’s a particular best approach to any given problem – but I do think that people should be able to try what they think is best for them, and move on if it doesn’t work out, without having to uproot their lives.
I also don’t think that there is an ultimate system that would arise as a result (a la Marx). The current state structures may continue to exist for a long time, even if competing mini-states existed in their midst. (Of course, if you define a state as “the entity that has a monopoly of force over a given geographical area”, then technically these would no longer be states, just corporations like any other). Kind of like Linux vs. Windows/Mac. Linux users love it, but for most people one of the two big dogs is preferable despite the higher price tag. Mac and Windows can survive just fine without the customers who have switched to Linux because they are established and relatively stable (*cough!*).
I don’t support state secession from within a federation (like when Texas secedes from the US sometime within the next decade). This relates to my lack of faith in electoral democracy. Any such event would mean that Texans who wanted to remain under US jurisdiction would be forced into the new arrangement against their will. This is basically a “tyranny of the majority” situation. I want choice of government regardless of my geographical location, and regardless of what my neighbors want.
As I’ve stated on other posts, I don’t think there’s anything utopian about this. Scarcity will always cause conflicts and demand a method of rationing. It’s pretty obvious that things could get messy, especially early on. I would expect any transition to be slow and incremental.
Feasiblility is obviously a concern, as is implementation. Basically all I want is the ability to expatriate without being forced to move out of the country. (In the US, there is an expensive expatriation tax, and you are required to pay US taxes for 10 years after expatriating. This also has to go). However, while this sounds simple, it means a radical shift in immigration and taxation policies, as well as foreign policy. Implementation would require massive public support to cause these changes within the existing system. Is it feasible? Who knows. But if viable alternatives never materialize, you end up back where you started, with the current states carrying on as if it never happened. This beats violent revolution any day.
Perhaps most importantly, individual secession would be an additional check on government power and might restore some respect for the citizens. Even in the absence of direct competition, the threat of competition or attrition can keep a monopoly honest.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/6031789/home-ownership-dream-ebbing-away-study/
finally, some reality is setting in.
On a more academic note, there’s a reasonable article on Minsky in a US newspaper The Boston Globe.