“The Marxian view is that capitalistic economies are inherently unstable and that excessive accumulation of capital will lead to increasingly severe economic crises. Growth theory, which has proved to be empirically successful, says this is not true.
The capitalistic economy is stable, and absent some change in technology or the rules of the economic game, the economy converges to a constant growth path with the standard of living doubling every 40 years.
In the 1930s, there was an important change in the rules of the economic game. This change lowered the steady-state market hours. The Keynesians had it all wrong.
In the Great Depression, employment was not low because investment was low. Employment and investment were low because labor market institutions and industrial policies changed in a way that lowered normal employment.”
Obviously, I did not write the above. The author was instead Edward C. Prescott, who shared the 2004 Nobel Prize in Economics for the development of real business cycle theory, in his 1999 paper “Some Observations on the Great Depression” (Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis Quarterly Review, Winter 1999, vol. 23, no. 1, pp. 25– 31).
This statement is remarkable for a number of reasons I’ll discuss below. But though it is extreme, it does express a belief that is endemic in neoclassical economics, that a market economy is inherently stable and will always return to a stable growth path after a shock.
That common belief lies behind the expectations of economists that, now that the GFC has played itself out, the economy will return to trend growth and the emergency measures that attenuated its impact can be withdrawn.
From this perspective, the GFC was a “pothole in the road” caused by the Subprime crisis, a “change in the rules of the economic game” which is now behind us. With the damage caused by the crisis largely contained, normal economic growth can resume. Over time, the unemployment rate will return to pre-crisis levels as the economic car resumes its steady speed along the highway of history.
The alternative perspective is that the GFC was more akin to an abrupt change in the terrain. The “economic car” had been coasting downhill with the gravity of ever-increasing private debt adding to the speed of the car. With the GFC we reached the bottom of the hill, and the car now has to drive uphill as it attempts to maintain its previous debt-enhanced speed while also reducing debt.
Visually at least, the “change in terrain” analogy stands up better than the pothole. I normally show the debt to GDP ratio as a rising function, but the economy’s speed gets a boost as the increase in debt makes a positive contribution to aggregate demand, and is slowed down when deleveraging reduces demand. So turning the ratio upside down may give a better idea of the depth of the “Valley of Debt” into which we have fallen:

When Australia began its most recent descent into debt in mid-1964, the average annual increase of 4.2% in the ratio added only a trivial amount to aggregate demand—since at the time debt was a mere 25% of GDP. But at the end of the debt bubble in 2008, when debt had become 165% of GDP, that same rate of debt growth added a huge amount to demand—the economic “car” gained speed as the slope of the debt mountain increased.
We hit the bottom of that mountain in March 2008, and now we’re starting to climb out of the valley—though not yet in absolute terms, since thanks to the First Home Vendors Boost, mortgage debt is still growing as business busily delevers (see comments on the data, below). But once deleveraging takes hold, the acceleration caused by racing down Debt Mountain will be replaced by an economic car straining up the Mount Debt Reduction. This change in the terrain will constrain private economic performance until debt has fallen significantly, as it did after the 1890s and the 1930s.
A similar, if more extreme, picture applies in the USA, where private debt is now 300% of GDP. In contrast to Australia, the USA’s debt ratio began to rise as soon as WWII ended: on average, US private debt rose 2.9% faster than GDP every year until 2008, taking the debt ratio from 45% at the end of the War to 300% now. Deleveraging from this level of debt must exert a substantial break on economic performance, by diverting income from expenditure to debt reduction.
I am therefore one of a minority of economic commentators who regard “deflation and deleveraging” as the main dangers facing the global economy in the near future (curiously, this minority might include Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd). From my perspective, the Global Financial Crisis marks “a change in the terrain”: for decades, rising debt has turbocharged economic performance; now falling debt will be a drag on economic activity.
The vast majority of economists who perceive the GFC as a pothole on the road that is now behind us do not consider debt and deleveraging in their analysis. Their models have neither credit nor money nor private debt in them, so from their point of view, there is no terrain at all beneath the car—merely a long flat highway of history along which the economic car drives at the speed it is underlying “real” economic performance.
This failure to even consider the role of private credit in a capitalist economy is an endemic weakness in conventional “neoclassical” economics, which ignores the dynamics of credit for a variety of reasons that are both ideological and illogical.
The ideology is apparent in Prescott’s comments on the Great Depression, quoted above. The lack of logic is evident when you compare a key statement in that paper—that “Growth theory, which has proved to be empirically successful, says this is not true”—with the results of some very careful empirical research by the very same author just ten years earlier. There he (and co-author and Nobel Prize recipient Finn Kydland) concluded that the empirical data contradicted neoclassical growth theory:
“The purpose of this article is to present the business cycle facts in light of established neoclassical growth theory, which we use as the organizing framework for our presentation of business cycle facts. We emphasize that the statistics reported here are not measures of anything; rather, they are statistics that display interesting patterns, given the established neoclassical growth theory.
In discussions of business cycle models, a natural question is, Do the corresponding statistics for the model economy display these patterns? We find these features interesting because the patterns they seem to display are inconsistent with the theory.” (Finn E. Kydland & Edward C. Prescott, “Business Cycles: Real Facts and a Monetary Myth”, Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis Quarterly Review, vol. 14, no. 2, pp 3-18, p. 4).
One key pattern in actual economic data that went against the predictions of neoclassical economic theory was the relationship between broad measures of the money supply and government-created “Base Money”. The standard “money multiplier” view is that:
- The government creates “Base Money” via deficit spending, and credits that money to private individuals via social security, goods purchases etc.;
- These private individuals then deposit that money in bank accounts;
- The banks then retain a proportion of these deposits and lend out the rest, creating credit money (and debt).
If this view were empirically correct, then an analysis of money over time would show that “Base Money” was created first and “Credit Money” was created later, with a time lag.
In fact, what Kydland and Prescott found was that the empirical data was the opposite of this: credit money was created first, and Base Money was created later, with a lag of up to a year:
“There is no evidence that either the monetary base or M1 leads the cycle, although some economists still believe this monetary myth. Both the monetary base and M 1 series are generally procyclical and, if anything, the monetary base lags the cycle slightly.
The difference in the behavior of M1 and M2 suggests that the difference of these aggregates (M2 minus M1) should be considered. … The difference of M2-M1 leads the cycle by even more than M2, with the lead being about three quarters.
The fact that the transaction component of real cash balances (M 1) moves contemporaneously with the cycle while the much larger nontransaction component (M2) leads the cycle suggests that credit arrangements could play a significant role in future business cycle theory. Introducing money and credit into growth theory in a way that accounts for the cyclical behavior of monetary as well as real aggregates is an important open problem in economics.”
I couldn’t agree more, but this is not what neoclassical economists did. Instead they continued to develop models in which money and debt played no role.
Despite his excellent empirical work on monetary dynamics in “Real Facts and a Monetary Myth”, Prescott’s “Great Depression” paper made no reference to credit at all as an explanatory factor in the Great Depression. Instead—I’m not joking—he blamed the Depression on a “change in labor market institutions and industrial policies that lowered steady-state, or normal, market hours”.
Except for this bizarre argument that the Great Depression was the result of the voluntary response of workers to unspecified changes in labour market conditions that made labour less desirable, this lengthy quote from Prescott is representative of standard neoclassical thinking about crises like the GFC:
“Essentially, business cycles are responses to persistent changes, or shocks, that shift the constant growth path of the economy up or down. This constant growth path is the path to which the economy would converge if there were no subsequent shocks. If a shock shifts the constant growth path down, the economy responds as follows. Market hours fall, reducing output; a bigger share of output is allocated to consumption and a smaller share to investment; and more time is allocated to leisure. Over time, market hours return to normal, as do investment and consumption shares of output, as the economy converges to its new lower constant growth path. The level of the new path is lower, not the growth rate along the path.
I’ve just described the response of the economy to a single shock. In fact, the economy is continually hit by shocks, and what economists observe in business cycles is the effects of past and current shocks. A bust occurs if a number of negative shocks are bunched in time. A boom occurs if a number of positive shocks are bunched in time. Business cycles are, in the language of Slutzky (1937), the “sum of random causes.”
The fundamental difference between the Great Depression and business cycles is that market hours did not return to normal during the Great Depression. Rather, market hours fell and stayed low. In the 1930s, labor market institutions and industrial policy actions changed normal market hours. I think these institutions and actions are what caused the Great Depression.”
So the Great Depression was a conscious choice by American workers to enjoy more leisure, in response to unspecified changes in the labour market ([Later in the same essay, he states: “Exactly what changes in market institutions and industrial policies gave rise to the large decline in normal market hours is not clear....”).
It would be bad enough if Prescott were merely an obscure academic economist, but he is far from obscure: he and Kydland shared the Nobel Prize in Economics for the development of neoclassical growth theory. As ridiculous as his argument is, it does accurately state the conclusions of the neoclassical “real business cycle” model. As is often the case, you find a much clearer—and therefore far more obviously absurd—statement of neoclassical economic theory when you go to the source, rather than relying on a second-hand account from a textbook or run-of-the-mill practitioner.
So the confidence that the vast majority of economists have that the GFC is now behind us, and the “normal” trend rate of growth will resume, is fundamentally based on the belief that credit and debt dynamics do not matter.
I beg to differ. Though the enormous government stimulus has attenuated the immediate impact of debt deleveraging, it has done nothing to reduce the outstanding level of private debt. Instead even sub-par growth has become dependent on continuing government stimuli, and whenever those stimuli are removed, the economy will falter.
Total private debt rose by a mere A$1 billion last month, versus as much as A$30 billion during the height of the debt bubble. But were it not for the First Home Vendors Boost (let's call it what it is), Australia would now be firmly in the grips of deleveraging.
END OF COMMENTARY
COMMENTS ON THE DATA—A Mortgage & Government Led Recovery?

Total private debt rose by a mere A$1 billion last month, versus as much as A$30 billion during the height of the debt bubble. But were it not for the First Home Vendors Boost (let's call it what it is), Australia would now be firmly in the grips of deleveraging.
Nonetheless the debt to GDP ratio fell yet again, because the rate of growth of debt is now substantially below the rate of growth of GDP—even though that is now also anaemic.

The breakdown of debt shows that the business sector is rapidly deleveraging, while mortgage and government debt is escalating—and both those are the result of government policy.
Without the First Home Vendors Boost, it is highly unlikely that mortgage debt would still be rising today. Mortgage debt peaked as a percentage of GDP in March 2008, and fell for the remainder of the year until the First Home Vendors Boost.
The quarterly change in mortgage debt was also trending down from the 2005 peak, and that downward trend has clearly been reversed by the impact of the Boost.


House Prices

The Boost has certainly had the impact the government desired, of arresting the fall in Australian house prices.

It will also almost certainly guarantee that I'll be walking (and running) to Kosciuszko under the first half of the bet with Rory Robertson.[1] The second half of the bet, that the fall from peak to trough will be of the order of 40%, may still see Rory also walking some years hence—and the withdrawal of the Boost may make this occur sooner rather than later.
The reason is twofold. Firstly, the Boost has obviously brought forward some buying by First Home Buyers that would have occurred anyway, as well as enticing in others who might not have considered it otherwise. The withdrawal of that demand will have a strong impact on the sub-$500,000 price range.
But the withdrawal will also affect houses in the $1 million to $1.5 million range as well, because the Boost did far more than merely boost sub-$500,000 prices.
First Home Buyers who were enticed into the market by the additional $7,000 geared that up with additional debt by at least a factor of 4, to result in something like a $35,000 price jump for sub-$500K houses. But the sellers of those houses—the real beneficiaries of the Boost—then received an extra $35,000 in cold hard cash. They then used this as a boost to their own deposits on their purchases of houses further up the chain—and if they also geared by a factor of 4 (ie a 80% marginal level of gearing, which is well within current lending practice), then the prices they paid for houses in the $750K-1.5M range would have risen by $140,000.
This works in reverse as well. When the Boost is withdrawn, not only will sellers of sub-$500K houses find that buyers have $35K less to spend than during the boost, the sellers of $750K-1.5M abodes will find their buyers short about $150K compared to during the boost.
2010 could be an interesting year for Australian house prices.
[1] If the index breaks its current maximum level of 131 in the next release of ABS 6416, I will walk (and run) from Parliament House to Mt Kosciusko as required by the bet in the last weeks of February 2010.






August 30th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
“2010 could be an interesting year for Australian house prices.”
Steve 2010 is too early. Considering Dec31 is the final deadline and builders have a backlog of 6 to 8 months it will take time for things to hit. Have you considered the government pulling out a few more Aces like reducing stamp duty beyond 50% like say 0%. Furthermore do you reckon the current government debt is too little or puny? and they bring in the big bazookas and decide to go deeper into debt to support their beloved POZI scheme? I reckon they will throw everything at it and we are far from it. Once we have past the tipping point when they cant take on any more debt and prepared to let go of their beloved then we can expect what you have said to happen. That is not next year or the immediate future I reckon atleast 2 to 3 years away. Why do you think the government wont continue a further much larger stimulus?
August 30th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Would like to add to my previous post. What about Landcom? The controllers of land release and new land prices. Do you reckon they are fools to release land when property prices are falling? So far they have controlled demand supply by simply releasing a tiny portion of land vs the demand and sold it at prime prices. The government can afford to NOT sell land anymore until things recover. They own the land and are in no hurry to wait. Considering Land prices is the major chunk of home prices I simply do not see this happening. The prices of existing homes may fall but it will take something really really big and drastic for Landcom to start releasing land 20 to 40% less than current prices. Any comments on Landcom side of things guys?
August 30th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
I suspect that Joshua may be right as next year is a Federal election year.
BTW and as an aside, I notice the local catholic school down the road from my place has been given a $2M handout from the infrastructure fund.
They’re going to use the money to build an open air music stage. I’m sure that this construction will help revive the economy! ;0)
Also I have read a comment somewhere that the Federal Government handouts are primarily designed to benefit the churches (esp. the church schools), construction companies and the unions in exchange for their support prior to the forthcoming election.
If this is true, the pork barrelling has already begun in earnest.
August 31st, 2009 at 12:32 am
How does this reduction in business borrowing sit with the reported increase in business investment (http://business.theage.com.au/business/strong-investment-data-stokes-rate-rise-fears-20090827-f0h7.html)?
August 31st, 2009 at 6:58 am
Off topic a little, but also good:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2009/08/what_future_for_media_and_jour.html
August 31st, 2009 at 8:03 am
Fair points Joshua. I do expect the government to do more to hold the scheme aloft–which is why I didn’t make a call for falling prices next year but instead “interesting times”. I don’t think they’ve thought through the consequences of the Boost ending for the market segment above $500K. But I think they and the property spruikers are going to find the act of holding house prices aloft to be much more difficult next year than ever before–especially if the RBA also decides to independently renew its obsession with inflation, and also assert its independence by raising rates a couple of times.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:05 am
Good question! It’s possible however to fund investment out of equity raisings and retained earnings as well as debt. There can be a deliberate shift in the business sector to get out of debt and move to equity-based financing–and we’ve seen substantial equity raisings in this bear rally while the economy has held up.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:16 am
Steve,
regarding your last point about the $7k home buyer credit … why would you assume that this would produce a ~$35k increase in home prices (and thus, an even larger effect when the seller takes their profit and buys a more expensive house)?
I assume you’re referring to a normal ratio of a 20% down payment. but, is it correct to assume that this ratio would stay constant with the home buyer incentive? I admit, I’m not an Australian, but in the US, the way mortgage lending used to work (before lenders lost their minds) is that a loan often depended on a down-payment ratio (e.g. 20%), but also depended on the ratio of the monthly payments to the buyer’s monthly income (I think that ratio was 31% or 38% or something similar).
if government bonuses allow buyers $7k extra for their down-payment, how does this affect the ratio of the monthly payment (which scales with the amount borrowed = home price – down_payment)? it’s not clear to me that having more money for a down-payment would entice borrowers to borrow any more, in which case the $7k credit would inflate house prices by close to $7k, not $35k. but, as I said, I don’t know how lending standards might be different in the US vs Oz.
also, this assumes that all the bonus ($7k) goes into an increased price for the seller. wouldn’t that depend on the elasticity of demand for these houses? if the demand isn’t perfectly inelastic, shouldn’t some of that be reflected in true savings for the buyers?
August 31st, 2009 at 8:59 am
n8r0n,
I agree that the “money multiplier” explanation is probably a bit incorrect. The injection of FHOG money simply restarted buying frenzy on a very shallow market – the population of Australia is 60% of California, highly concentrated in a few big cities.
I probably managed to convince somebody with a single income not to borrow about $400k to buy a house infested with termites – despite repeated visits of a co-worker, a seasoned gambler, who probably was receiving an instant gratification in the form of adrenaline rush when he was “encouraging” the investment. In fact the insects did the most of the job. Banks are still willing to lend a lot. The ratio of monthly payments to income is rather irrelevant when most of the loans are variable-rate (currently starting from 5.1%) – today it is 31% tomorrow may be 62%. Loans are recourse so you are a slave of the bank if you go bankrupt (however the most of people whom I know have passports of several countries ready should their experiment with Australia fail).
Applying free market explanations to real estate in Australia is as correct as applying free market explanations to the market of indulgences in Rome in 15th century (before Martin Luther) – what was the elasticity of the demand then?
It is all about virtual property.
August 31st, 2009 at 9:07 am
Steve, thanks for the response. It’ll be interesting to see how your model responds to the addition of interest rates and cash. I suspect that in a true blue pure credit economy, any risk free asset such as cash or government bonds creates an arbitrage that will eventually result in or exacerbate instability of the credit system. Risk free assets don’t belong in a true credit economy.
I’m also guessing the math is going to show that trying to combine a credit economy and a cash economy is a bit like trying to combine quantum mehcanics and relativity.
Regarding gisellian systems, I presume you refer to the difficulty of applying demurrage to cash and other risk free assets like gold?It could well be that intime we find implementing demurrage will turn out to be no more difficult than it was to abandon the gold standard, unthinkable just a decade before it happened. It may even prove unnecessary in a n economy significantly dominated by credit money.
Recent history shows that the modern money system is an accounting one of liability and asset which when functioning properly is driven by normal economic processes and anything that has gotten in the way – like gold and bank reserve ratios, has steadily lost relevance. Many think this means we need to return to older, simpler times. I however would characterise that as the fallacy of reversibility, and observe that the world don’t work that way, and cannot work that way.
Going back to the chartalists, I suspect they are right in theory that government spending can sustain the economy indefinitely in theory. The reason that credit doesn’t enter into their theory is because theirs is a theory of fiat, in which credit expansion is optional, allowed or not by government fiat. They can justofy this by saying the credit money is not real money, because it can’t be used to pay taxes.
However the real world includes both credit and government fiat, and I hope that the intersection between their theories and yours yields up the reality of the modern economy (which hopefully will not turn out to be a mathematical discontinuity -aka a black hole).
August 31st, 2009 at 9:15 am
The normal down payment was approaching 5% before this crisis hit n8r0n–ie loans were approaching 95% of the valuation of the property being purchased, and they didn’t go into retreat for all that long:
http://www.mortgagechoice.com.au/special-home-loan-offers.aspx
So in arguing that a $7K boost to the deposit would result in a $35K increase in the price paid, I was being conservative. There was plenty of anecdotal feedback to me that lenders were giving out more than that much on the basis of the Boost, and the ABS data showed that the average loan to a FHB rose substantially and even exceeded the average for all other buyers during the boost.
And as ak has noted, the old links between income and debt servicing levels have long been broken over here. That’s accelerated now by a trend to offer guarantor loans at 105-120% of the property’s valuation.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:10 am
Re: The second part of your bet.
I’m a 57 year-old , middle-class American thinking about spending my remaining days elsewhere. I’m sick of winner-take-all economic models , and , though I had high hopes for Obama during the campaign , now I can see that “Change” referred to what workers might expect to be paid in the future.
Rudd’s writings make me look to Australia as one of the better bets , among the Anglo-Saxon countries , to implement some form of “New Deal 2.0″ political economy. If I , and other like-minded people , see this happening and decide to move our wealth and talents to Australia , it might provide enough demand for housing to cause you to lose your bet.
Additionally , if bold , rapid adoption of such policies correct structural imbalances in the economy , it might result in a more benign deleveraging in which house values don’t take such a big hit.
Just a thought ( half in jest ).
Great site , BTW.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:32 am
Here in Victoria First Home buyers are eligible for grants up to $35,500. That then should result in an increase of $177,500 in the price paid. That certainly would explain some of the ridiculous prices being paid around here.
August 31st, 2009 at 11:49 am
Hello Steve,
Thank you for you interesting posts,
I have little economic knowledge but I am intrigued by your proposed solution: a debt jubilee. How would that work? Just halving all mortgages and personal debt and let the banks eat the costs? I wouldn’t mind for the banks, but I would find it unfair for all people that didn’t go into debt using it for consumption.
How about printing money and giving every adult US$100.000? If people would use it to pay off debts, it would not create inflation, correct?
August 31st, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Who has vested interest in high house prices? All of us who have houses. That is 60% of the population of Australia. That’s why we are actually happy that there are shortages in some areas and hate public housing – including people who may live there.
“the plan to develop public housing next door defied comprehension”
“House prices will tumble”
“it will become a dumping ground for families that cannot be housed anywhere else, or for former drug addicts from the nearby Aboriginal rehab centre”
Yes it cannot get any worse. These people for sure should not be allowed anywhere close to our properties.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/not-sold-residents-fear-effect-on-property-prices-20090830-f3zx.html
Also: what about the real number of migrants who arrived last year and have to live somewhere? Does this affect the number of vacant properites?
“Australia’s official migration program recorded an intake of 171,318 permanent migrants in 2008-09″
“according to figures obtained by Fairfax, a further 657,124 temporary migrants with the right to work arrived in Australia during the past year. The 11 per cent surge in temporary migrants was fuelled by big increases in foreign students (up 15 per cent to 320,368) and working holiday visas (up 22 per cent to 154,148). This compensated for a 9 per cent drop in 457 visas – an employer-sponsored visa for temporary skilled labour introduced in 1995 – to 101,280″
http://www.smh.com.au/national/migration-rules-set-for-revamp-20090831-f47j.html
August 31st, 2009 at 12:19 pm
An interesting article regarding the Government stimulus measures and Treasury advice.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/31/2671454.htm
August 31st, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Hey BTB or others in the financial background.
Any ideas how much commission the bank lending managers get for signing you on to a loan? I am sick of the constant harassment by my Bank SG with regards to trying to shove a loan on me. So far they have offered to waive the Bank fees from 1200$ to 600$ and also cover the cost of the conveyancer recommended by them. I can only conclude there must be fair amount of commissions/kickbacks? After all on a 25 year loan the bank will probably make around 470K only in interest forget the principal. Probably would have to survive on 1/4 of salary taking interest rates at 8% of course. Leaves no room for savings unless there is a secondary income earner
August 31st, 2009 at 12:50 pm
“If the index breaks its current maximum level of 131 in the next release of ABS 6416, I will walk (and run) from Parliament House to Mt Kosciusko as required by the bet in the last weeks of February 2010.”
Tut tut, kind of forgot didn’t we Steve: “The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent”?
Especially when it is being given HUGE pushes up the posterior by desperate Western governments.
Oh! And as Joshua says, when governments at all levels in Australia are in an unholy alliance to keep houses as several times their real value, thus turning first home buyers into long-term debt slaves harnessed to the fortunes of the high growth, neoclassical economy (best method of social control ever, Stalin grit your teeth in envy). As for the massive transfer of wealth from younger, poorer Australians to older, richer ones, well… as a beneficiary I’d better not comment.
Stephen Heyer
August 31st, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Hi Joshua,
I am not aware of many bank employed home loan managers earning commission on writing loans. Brokers on the other hand all work for commission.
In terms of the employee, they would generally have targets for loans, insurance, credit cards, internal referrals and deposit accounts. Should they meet/exceed their targets and are liked by their manager, they could expect to receive up to 30% of their salary as a bonus. This all depend on who they work for. Some pay better than others.
Home loan lenders are quite often under a lot of pressure to meet very high targets. Unfortunately this can distort the manager’s view of whether the loan is good for the customer or not.
August 31st, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Hi Sjheyer,
Are you using hindsight to sarcastically suggest Steve was foolish to make a prediction? Does that make you feel good about yourself? What are your predictions?
Using hindsight is a mugs game. All one is doing with hindsight is following the herd. Make a prediction and stand by it. Then put your money where your mouth is. That takes guts.
Steve has my utmost respect for not calling Rory out. After all, Rory was predicting house price falls too, he just didn’t believe the falls would be as severe as Steve was suggesting.
August 31st, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Lot’s of HOPE here;
Housing recovery hopes dashed
CHRIS ZAPPONE
August 31, 2009 – 11:39AM
Hopes for a recovery in the housing sector have been dashed by fresh data showing new home sales were flat in July.
The volume of new home sales increased 0.1 per cent in July, following a 0.5 per cent increase in June, the Housing Industry Association said today.
“Housing finance figures point to an emerging recovery in trade-up buyer and investor numbers, but looking beyond first time buyer related activity we’re not as yet at a point where we can talk of a broad based recovery in private new home demand,” HIA chief economist Harley Dale said in a statement.
States showed a wide variation in results with house sales dropping 4.4 per cent in Victoria, 11.6 per cent in South Australia and 3.1 per cent in Western Australia.
In NSW they increased 9.8 per cent and vaulted 10.2 per cent in Queensland.
“Throw into the mix approvals processes that are bogging down the recovery and a slow start to the Social Housing Initiative and we are looking at a moderate rather than strong lift in building starts through the second half of 2009,” he said.
The Federal Government had hoped that the First Home Buyers grant, along with record low interest rates, would jumpstart the housing industry and provide a catalyst for the economy in coming months. The First Home Buyers grant boost is set to reduce to $14,000 from $21,000 by the end of September.”
http://business.smh.com.au/business/housing-recovery-hopes-dashed-20090831-f4jj.html
…….and the “green shoots” propaganda machine won’t like this leak at the MoT…
Inventory drop to dent GDPAugust 31, 2009 – 12:01PM
“The bigger-than-expected fall in inventories means that firms were not confident enough to increase production over the quarter, preferring to meet household demand via running down stocks,” said 4Cast Ltd economist Michael Turner.
The June quarter result was 5.3 per cent lower than a year ago. Economists were expecting inventories to have declined by 1.1 per cent in the June quarter.
That 3.4 per cent quarterly fall may lop as much as a 0.9 percentage point subtraction to the gross domestic product, according to 4Cast.”
http://business.theage.com.au/business/inventory-drop-to-dent-gdp-20090831-f4jk.html
August 31st, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Market update. I am looking for signals in the hope of predicting a turn back to the previous bear market trend.
I believe silver’s trend turned down in June and fell into July before it began a retracement phase. My count has silver topping with wave 5 of C this morning. If correct, That would mean that wave 3 of 3 down in silver commenced this morning. This method of picking tops is highly speculative and is regularly wrong.
Silver is currently holding 2 cents above support at $14.70. A strong break below $14.70 will confirm my count for now. After that silver would have to break below $14.06 to eliminate some other alternatives. Silver is at a very important juncture because a break below $14.70 creates a tradeable top of $14.92 to set one’s stops.
Why silver, who cares?
I believe silver to be a good predictor for where the economy is heading in the future. This is because silver is a very high beta industrial metal. A solidly bearish trend in silver would imply a bullish trend in the $US which implies falling equities.
Should this scenario play out. I believe it is describing the deflation trade which will eventually confirm Steve Keen’s work and predictions.
If silver breaks support at $14.70 (now holding by 1.5 cents) and then moves under $14 (next strong support) in the next week or two. Look out bulls here comes deflation. IMO of course.
August 31st, 2009 at 2:19 pm
My guess us that sjheyer was just tickling my funny bone BTB! He’s dead right about the “irrational vs solvent” issue, and the impact of the government’s push from behind with the FHVB. But I was ambushed with the call for the bet itself–as I think mahaish noted here, had we had time to consider such a thing then I would definitely set the trigger differently for Rory and myself. A possible fair bet would have been if things were half as bad as I suggested, he would work, and half as good as he expected, I would walk; and an ancillary that the peak wouldn’t be more than 10% higher than the current nominal level, versus taking the then existing peak as the absolute–which I was not trying to call of course.
But them’s the breaks. I’ll stick with the bet as formulated, and if I have to walk, I’ll do so in late February, as I noted in Debtwatch. I’d just appreciate some company on the walk by as many Debtwatchers as are in Australia and can afford a day or two for an alpine stroll in late February 2010.
August 31st, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Steve,
What if you walk then your predictions comes true after a certain number of years and Rory refuses to walk citing comments like “Only one person wins a bet between two people” and since you walked prematurely too bad! He could very well say that you lost in the time frame and he will not walk. So do you have it in concrete that he will walk on the 2nd half?
I am prepared to make a hasty bet that rory wont walk if he really does turn out to be wrong eventually! I think you need to make lay these terms and conditions before you walk so the Media knows that you are still standing by your prediction.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:18 pm
joshua,
> I am prepared to make a hasty bet that rory wont walk
Do you realise that you are offering a “Walk Default Swap”? How about pricing some options with that?
– sorry about the offtopic – could not resist.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Scepticus writes,
“Going back to the chartalists, I suspect they are right in theory that government spending can sustain the economy indefinitely in theory. The reason that credit doesn’t enter into their theory is because theirs is a theory of fiat, in which credit expansion is optional, allowed or not by government fiat. They can justofy this by saying the credit money is not real money, because it can’t be used to pay taxes.”
Credit does enter their theory, for goodness sake. I cannot even believe I have to defend them on this point. As I said in the previous thread, they agree virtually entirely with Basil Moore and the endogenous money view. Wray wrote an entire book on endogenous money and was a Ph.D student of Minsky. To suggest otherwise is simply a misreading or just not a reading at all of their literature. They would never say something as silly as “credit money is not real money.” Credit money is not state money, but that’s hardly equivalent to suggesting it is not “real.” Credit money even clears a tax liability for those lower on the hierarchy of money than banks, even if it does not ultimately settle the tax liability. They have always said as much.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Vk,
A walk default swap. Brillant!
Please provide pricing information and terms!!
Of course, Moody(or someone else) will need to grade the swap. Probably would be AAA.
Jokes aside, I bet Rory wouldn’t walk even if he was proven wrong!
August 31st, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Hi Steve and BullturnedBear,
Steve is of course right: I was trying for sympathetically amusing.
As for your belief that one should “Make a prediction and stand by it. Then put your money where your mouth is. That takes guts.” Well, in my long life I have learned that the future generally either isn’t what we expected, or isn’t when we expected.
The trick is, I think, to try to glimpse the likely range of futures, make what preparations one can, but then don’t overly commit to any one particular model and above all stay flexible.
Just for the record, I made exactly the same predictions as Steve, but with Peak Oil, no, make that Peak Everything added to make things even more dire. Mind you, I was always aware that the timing could be out by years.
Oh! And there are always Black Swan Events (Note: Black Swan Events can be good events). For example, I am now aware of at least three developments, any one of which just could rather mitigate Peak Oil, and that would save a lot of pain and lives.
By the way, that walk sounds like it would be worth losing so you’d have an excuse to make it. If I possibly can I wouldn’t mind coming.
Stephen Heyer
August 31st, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Goldilocksisableachblond, there is Rudd’s writings and Rudd’s reality, which is that he will do what appeals to middle-class swinging voters which is to keep their property prices high, along with high wages, lots of free handouts and making sure most keep their jobs. It will be worse in the long run but it wins elections now.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:45 pm
“As of the end of June, more than one-third of all mortgaged homes in the United States were underwater, according to a report last month by the First American CoreLogic, a mortgage-industry consulting firm in Santa Ana, Calif. First American said the figure is almost certainly the highest it has been in decades.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/realestate/30mort.html?_r=1
“The Japanese economy has plunged into the double nightmare of runaway deflation and soaring joblessness, dealing probably a decisive, fatal blow to the ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) as it fights its most desperate battle for political survival in 50 years.”
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article6814280.ece
“I was kind of surprised and said Mr Bernanke do you have $82 billion? Mr. Bernanke replied I have $800 billion and under section 13.3 of the Federal Reserve Act they can lend anything they want.”
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/08/barney-frank-say-ron-pauls-audit-fed.html
He Told Them So ….. NOT! The Washington Post Interviews Chicken Little
“I would start typing “wrong, wrong, wrong,” but my computer does not have enough “wrong”s. The explosion of the deficit in the last year did not come from the sources of which David Walker had warned. It came from the collapse of an $8 trillion housing bubble, which David Walker (and the Washington Post) almost completely ignored. The collapse of the bubble threw the economy into the worst downturn since the depression. It also forced the government to spend hundreds of billions of dollars bailing out failed financial institutions. Walker never talked about this threat in his anti-deficit tirades.”
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/beat_the_press_archive?month=08&year=2009&base_name=he_told_them_so_not_the_washin
“It would be insanity for rate hikes at this point” said Steve Keen, associate professor of economics at the University of NSW.
“The recovery we have seen so far has been completely stimulus driven, with retail sales, car sales, house sales – everything boosted by government handouts and tax breaks.”
http://www.news.com.au/business/money/story/0,28323,26001086-5013951,00.html
August 31st, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Hi Steve,
Do you know of the Canadian writer John Ralston Saul? You both seem to be saying the same things in totally different ways and I think your arguments complement each other very well.
I just got the new edition of his book ‘The Collapse of Globalism’ and the new chapter is fantastic, I’d recomend it to anyone who likes this blog.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Nice compilation Philip, thanks.
August 31st, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Found another green shoot;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/6110621/Our-quarter-century-penance-is-just-starting.html
“The current financial crisis is unlike any others,” says the Bank for International Settlements. Lasting damage has been done. The “cumulative output loss” is likely to reach 20pc of GDP in the major economies. The message is the same at the International Monetary Fund. “The world is not in a run of the mill recession. The crisis has left deep scars. In advanced countries, the financial systems are partly dysfunctional,” said Olivier Blanchard, the Fund’s chief economist. Mr Blanchard said an IMF study of post-War banking crises led to an unpleasant finding. “Output does not go back to its old trend path, but remains permanently below it.”
August 31st, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Yes I know–Randy and I regularly find ourselves debating points at PK conferences of course, and I was pleased to find him in the audience at a talk I gave in Newcastle earlier this year.
The differences between us largely relate to the sustainability of a government-driven recovery from a crisis like this. I have no argument with the “governments alone can create net financial assets” assets of the Chartalist case, etc. What I focus on is the need for a theory of private credit creation independent of fiat money–since that’s clearly the empirical fact–and how the dynamics of government deficits relate to issues like debt deleveraging. There there be differences, I expect; but I’ll need to do a detailed study of their arguments to be sure.
August 31st, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Yes I have it in writing:
From: Rory Robertson [mailto:Rory.Robertson@macquarie.com]
Sent: Wed 3/06/2009 4:12 PM
To: Steve Keen; Christopher Joye
Subject: RE: That’s not a knife…
Steve…please check your calculations…40% drop from 131 peak is 78.6
on abs index…that’s when I would walk.
If that 131 level is regained in any period of time after a fall of less
than 20%…doesn’t touch as low as 104.8… then you have committed to
walk.
recall that down 20% to down 40% is no-man’s land…
writing “I’m willing to gamble that 131 was the peak” seems bizarre to
me…it’s a matter of fact that 131 was the peak…the obvious and only
peak that matters..we now are betting on the trough that follows…you
say 78.6 or lower, I say higher than 104.8…
talk about what might happen AFTER 131 regained short time or long time
is beside the point (perhaps “a trivial peak to peak with a minor
trough”)…
having said that…if abs or chris’s index ever falls 40% from its peak
level in 2008 – over any number of decades – I will walk…
rdgs,
rory
August 31st, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Steve Keen,
I read your charts as saying that the US is MUCH worse off than Australia. What makes you so sure that Australia will be hit substantially now. When Japan went through its own crisis – the rest of the world didn’t fall off the credit bandwagon.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:25 pm
The US is much worse, but we’re 60% worse than we were for the 1890′s. So there’s a home-grown component to consider–and at the end of the bubble debt was adding 20% to aggregate demand.
Don’t follow your point re Japan.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Steve,
I know you are sick of “the bet” questions but I am just interested in how the index is calculated.
Is the index fixed or is it adjucted for inflation.
Help me out with my reasoning as Im not the sharpest, but if prices remain stagnant and inflation is 5% then real prices should fall. Does the index reflect this 5% fall (ie index 131 down to 125).
August 31st, 2009 at 9:49 pm
It’s fixed debtjunkies–unadjusted for inflation.
There’s one reason I accepted the bet in those terms: I expect sustained deflation, which would make the fall in real terms less than the unadjusted fall, if I turn out to be right on the deflation call.
August 31st, 2009 at 11:16 pm
An interesting article about class warfare in China. At least the class warfare, in this case, is working in the correct direction for once.
Murder Bares Worker Anger Over China Industrial Reform
“As rumors swirled that Mr. Chen’s employer, Jianlong Group, planned to shed workers, a group of them found the 41-year-old executive and beat him severely, battering his skull. Workers blocked streets near the factory and hurled bricks, preventing police and paramedics from reaching Mr. Chen.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124899768509595465.html
Perhaps if the workers of Pacific Brands over here were a little more ‘proactive’ like these Chinese workers, maybe they could’ve kept their jobs.
Bernanke Warns of Less Financial Stability, If the Fed is Perceived as Losing Independence
“Somehow, this line passed without ridicule at the WSJ. Maybe Mr. Bernanke missed it, but his independent Fed gave us the largest financial and economic crisis since the Great Depression. Does anyone really think that things would have been worse if the Fed had been more accountable?”
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/beat_the_press_archive?month=08&year=2009&base_name=bernanke_warns_of_less_financi
September 1st, 2009 at 3:08 am
Steve,
I have a question about the number you use for U.S. private debt. The 300% of GDP figure includes financial sector debt. Some say this is really double counting, as this is essentially financing debt counted elsewhere. To that way of thinking, it would be like counting bank deposits, since both are liabilities to banks.
This financial debt grew much faster (from 100% to 300% of GDP) than other private debt (90% to 190%), which isn’t to say other private debt didn’t grow into a bubble.
Might it not be fair to say that this bank debt is the grease that allowed private debt to grow so much faster than deposits?
September 1st, 2009 at 3:14 am
Hi Steeve,
In the roving cavaliers of credit you explained that deflation was the most likely path because money is created by commercial banks when they grant loans and therefore can only be created if there is demand for credit. Also base money printed by the central bank has little effect to prevent deflation.
But isn’t it possible for the government to create inflation by directly monetizing its debt? The Fed has already started to monetize a small part of the US gov debt. Is there something that prevents it to go further?
September 1st, 2009 at 5:30 am
AK, completely agree with your comments on page 2 of the last thread – which I only just noticed. A good rant!
While I completely buy all steve’s work on the credit economy, what I don’t buy is that the rules will not be changed. Of course money will be printed to prevent deflation. Either that, or negative nominal rates will be required to prevent the collapse you spoke about.
I see five ways of doing so.
Firstly, credit created by a national government bank. An unlimited amount for any purpose can be created.
Secondly, credit created by an international bank in which various nations are shareholders. Imagine a bank capitalised by SDR which are then leveraged.
Thirdly, by printing of base money.
Forthly, by printing international base money like SDR.
Fifthly, by deficit expansion – the chartalist way.
Interestingly, both inflation negative real rates can be created by government credit expansion simply by offering government backed credit below the rate of inflation. Say this credit was extended for mortgages – then private banks if they want to compete, would have to lend at rates lower than the rate of inflation.
I suspect some of the 5 methods above can be shown to be equivalent in terms of monetary theory, however they may retain crucial differences of perception or legality.
In reality ‘capitalism’ ended some time ago, right about the time the financial systems and the day to day vital goods and services we all depend upon became so entwined with one another the whole edifice became too big to fail.
Therefore it will be bailed out by yet another rules re-write, with priorities being:
1. sustain basic services, inluding .gov.
2. sustain employment at manageable levels
3. sustain credit/accounting system, since it is the only system we have.
September 1st, 2009 at 7:16 am
Hi Steve,
Congratulations on your website and interesting commentary.
I would like to hold you to account on a few matters in this latest post.
1. Prescott does not say that the Great Depression occurred because Americans wanted more leisure. In fact, he says in the Abstract quite the opposite. He says (talking about Japan) : “This is in sharp contrast with the United States in the 1930s when the American people wanted to
work more.”
2. You claim to debunk neoclassical economics by showing some holes in growth theory. I will quote from Prescott himself who seems surprised that growth theory can have any application outside studying long-term growth:
“The developers of growth theory thought the theory would be useful for
studying long-term growth issues but that a fundamentally
different theory would be needed for studying business
cycle fluctuations”
3. You refer to Prescott’s earlier paper and show that it contradicts this newer paper. You seem to rely on the empirical findings of the earlier paper to debunk neoclassical economics.
The earlier paper (Business Cycles: Real Facts and a Monetary Myth) does show some unexplained aspects of the business cycle, but its findings dont actually assist your own theory… the authors find that price levels are counter-cyclical. Surely your own theory is that prices will drop while the real economy shrinks in a messy spiral of deflation. This paper predicts that if the economy shrinks, prices will go up.
If you are going to admire this paper for punching holes in neoclassical economics, you will also have to accept that it punches holes in your own theory.
The other major problem with this paper is that it focuses on the post-war period and ignores, for example, the Great Depression.
You have in the past criticised other papers for ignoring the Great Depression, and you might find that the correlation coefficients would be vastly different during this period. See, eg, Ravn and Sola 1995, Stylized facts and regime changes: Are prices procyclical?
4. You take the knife to CAPM. I assume you do this in order to show that markets are often mispriced and that Australian residential housing is an example of such a mispricing.
Showing that markets are not efficient would indeed invalidate CAPM. The trouble is, invalidating CAPM does not necessarily show that markets are not efficient. In fact, Fama and French (the guys who show empirical problems with CAPM that you refer to) are still zealous advocates of the idea that markets are highly efficient.
5. If you think ‘growth’ theory is wrong for saying that after a shock the growth level will return to trend, aren’t you being equally prescriptive for saying that after a (negative) shock, debt to GDP levels will return to the same universal long term level?
September 1st, 2009 at 11:24 am
Wasabi,
Firstly, (not to speak for Steve), but relating to your quote from Prescott on growth theory- that proves the precise point that post-Keynesians are trying to patiently teach us. Namely, to study long term growth trends (say a long period of “tranquillity” over 20-40 years) you need a system which will predict huge depressions, to make “depressions of the state of affairs of a capitalist economy” (Minsky). What Steve is doing is looking at long term developments (1840 to 1890 (depression); 1919 to 1930 (depression); 1970 to 2010 (depression?)). That is one of the lessons post-Keynesians are teaching us: you need to include things like assets, capital markets, speculation and debt money etc in the formulation of long term economic analysis in order to understand what DOES happen to growth in the long term (i.e. spastic periods of depression, where demand plummets as more people pay of debts then spend, and fall into default). We are not dealing with your run of the mill business cycles. But huge downturns- depressions (which DO happen in the long term, BUT are NOT predicted by standard growth theory). These are LONG TERM events (both in their build up over several decades of rapid growth i.e. “the euphoric economy” and the fact they take over a decade to recover from). None of this is included or even considered in growth theory, in their analysis of the “long term”. How can you understand growth without understanding the speculations, misallocation of resources, debts etc which undermine the economy over a long time span (over decades and decades)?
Secondly, maybe I misread Prescott when he wrote:
“…The fundamental difference between the Great Depression and business cycles is that market hours did not return to normal during the Great Depression. Rather, market hours fell and stayed low. In the 1930s, labor market institutions and industrial policy actions changed normal market hours. I think these institutions and actions are what caused the Great Depression…*So the Great Depression was a conscious choice by American workers to enjoy more leisure, in response to unspecified changes in the labour market*”
Sorry? What? Prescott does not say that the Great Depression occurred because Americans wanted more leisure. No, you are right, what he says is much worse: “the Great Depression was *a conscious choice* by American workers to enjoy more leisure, *in response to unspecified changes in the labour market*”
So, according to him, it was institutional policies which promoted leisure over work, despite people wanting work that caused the Great Depression:
“The Keynesians had it all wrong. In the Great Depression, employment was not low because investment was low. *Employment and investment were low because labor market institutions and industrial policies changed in a way that lowered normal employment [lowering the hours worked]*”.
Furthermore, let’s put your quote in a little more of a context:
“..The failure of the Japanese people to display concern with the performance of their economy suggests that this reduction is what the Japanese people wanted. This is in sharp contrast with the United States in the 1930s when the American people wanted to work more..”
His point is, in essence, although the US populace desired work, but they did not have- they rather preferred leisure due to some random institutional changes. There was a leisure bias due to “institutional changes”. Thus, he writes:
“An application of growth theory to the current situation in Japan might be useful in understanding the Great Depression in the United States…. The Japanese economy in the 1990s is not as depressed as the U.S. economy was in the 1930s. Market hours in Japan in the 1990s have fallen only half as much as market hours fell in the United States during the Great Depression. More importantly, the reduction in market hours in Japan in the 1990s was the stated objective of policy. In the 1930s in the United States, the concern was that people were working too little. Japan….they were working too much…”
For him the reason Japan was not as screwed over as the U.S. was because it had more steady working hours, whereas the US, who experienced a huge depression in the 1930s, had very low and short working hours due to a leisure bias in the institutional structure of the economy (gosh… I wonder if the lower working hours that had anything to do with the collapse in demand due to a debt deflation).
Thirdly, you write:
“but its findings do not actually assist your own theory… the authors find that price levels are counter-cyclical. Surely your own theory is that prices will drop while the real economy shrinks in a messy spiral of deflation. This paper predicts that if the economy shrinks, prices will go up”.
I think Steve has said several times that big government and central bank interventions have kept the economy buoyant in the mid 70s and early nineties (i.e. the results you describe, inflation during downturns etc). What the private sector lost in these downturns (i.e. reduction in debt), the government made up. But he notes that now the private debt is so huge (thanks to these precise interventions), it is going to be difficult to supplement the deleveraging in the private sector. If anything, it provides his theories.
I recommend reading Minsky’s “Stabilising an Unstable Economy” (Economic Experience), which shows how big government did indeed cause stagflation, but prevented a depression.
Anyways, it seems again you purposely misread Steve, or misunderstood him.
Ps You write “If you think ‘growth’ theory is wrong for saying that after a shock the growth level will return to trend, aren’t you being equally prescriptive for saying that after a (negative) shock, debt to GDP levels will return to the same universal long term level?”
Yes- but here again I think you’ve missed the point- they are saying equilibrium is a fiction: the economy is unstable. Equilibrium is one thing, a debt deflation (which is empirically supported) in another.
September 1st, 2009 at 3:08 pm
The balance of payments data came out today. Not so good:
“JUNE KEY POINTS
BALANCE OF PAYMENTS
* The current account deficit, seasonally adjusted, rose $7,001m to $13,347m in the June quarter 2009. There was a turnaround of $5,934m on the balance on goods and services, resulting in a $1,667m deficit in the June quarter 2009. The income deficit increased $1,064m (10%) to $11,489m.
* In seasonally adjusted chain volume terms there was an increase of $683m (36%) in the deficit on goods and services. This is expected to detract 0.2 percentage points to growth in the June quarter 2009 volume measure of GDP.”
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/5302.0?OpenDocument
September 1st, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Steve,
Like I predicted accurately that tag team chris joye,rory et al would go for the kill.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Rory-Robertson-Hawkish-pd20090901-VFV9Q?OpenDocument&src=is&is=Property&blog=Concrete%20Detail
“Rory thought he would offer up the community a “public good” of sorts by making an example of Stevie and minimising the likelihood of mass hysteria next time a relatively unknown commentator came out with an Armageddon-like call that had the potential to needlessly spook millions of households (ie, by encouraging the media to apply a sanity test to these statements).
But Stevie also appears confused. He seems to be labouring under the misapprehension that he made not one, but two bets. I noticed this when he referred to the “first half of the bet with Rory”. To the best of my knowledge there was only one bet and certainly no “second half”. And Steve lost that bet if Australian house prices recovered their previous 2008 peak and did not fall by more than 20 per cent. ”
Steve you replied in response to my previous post before above that rory would walk. chris joye disagrees – there was no two bets which is contrary to rorys response.
I very well know what these guys had in mind, I can read them very well. Guys lets gets creative here.
September 1st, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Here is another article that confirms the increasing debt burden of excessively priced housing.
http://business.smh.com.au/business/debt-burden-spoils-retirement-party-20090831-f5df.html
For a long time now I have thought that the tax transfer (welfare) and super system is being utilised by all persuasions of government to prop up the housing system.
It is probably a simplification, but follow this typical life cycle:
Young couple cant afford a home but with government sponsorship they move in.
They decide to have kids, its not too tough because the government provides them a bonus.
They realise they cant afford the sponsored house – they go back to the government and get a family tax payment and childcare assistance so that both can work.
They spend the next 20+ years paying the interest on the home and if they are lucky reduce some principle.
They then retire and with their tax free super payout pay off the mortgage.
With all their funds gone and tied up in their tax free house they go to the govt and receive the aged pension.
I think that we need to somehow be looking at options where the system is wound back and the welfare system is there only for those that have no other alternatives.
It seems to me as if middle class welfare is contributing to increasing speculation in housing.
While I am waiting for the Henry review I do not believe that there is the political will to really change too much and I believe that the result will confirm the status quo as wholesale changes will just not be accepted by the electrate.
Steve and others, do you also see these issues as contributing to the problem and if so how do we change the system.
September 1st, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Spadijer89,
Prescott never said “the Great Depression was *a conscious choice* by American workers to enjoy more leisure, *in response to unspecified changes in the labour market*””
Those were Steve’s words.
It just proves my point that he was misusing his sources if he confused someone as intelligent as you.
September 1st, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Good points Wasabi (that has to rate as one of my favourite nicknames on this site by the way–both for its implications and the fact that I’m a Wasabi junkie–love the stuff!).
1. Prescott does indeed say that, but what he is referring to is his utterly unsupported claim that “changes in labour market institutions” led to the decline in working hours during the Depression, whereas the Japanese actually chose to reduce working hours during their Lost Decade. In both cases, he attributes the cause in the fall in output to a fall in working hours where that is a conscious decision by workers.
2. That sounds more like a reference to Robert Solow from Prescott, and there is a paper by Solow–possibly the one implicitly referenced by Prescott–where he rails against the use of his model for the analysis of cycles:
“The puzzle I want to discuss—at least it seems to me to be a puzzle, though part of the puzzle is why it does not seem to be a puzzle to many of my younger colleagues—is this. More than forty years ago, I … worked out … neoclassical growth theory… [I]t was clear from the beginning what I thought it did not apply to, namely short-run fluctuations in aggregate output and employment … the business cycle… [N]ow … if you pick up an article today with the words ‘business cycle’ in the title, there is a fairly high probability that its basic theoretical orientation will be what is called ‘real business cycle theory’ and the underlying model will be … a slightly dressed up version of the neoclasssical growth model. The question I want to circle around is: how did that happen?” Solow 2003 From Neoclassical”Growth Theory To New Classical Macroeconomics p. 19)
But that didn’t stop other neoclassicals including Prescott for doing precisely that.
Not that I have much sympathy for Solow: his young colleagues were doing to him precisely what he and Samuelson and Hicks and many others had previously done to Keynes. From the same paper:
“For a while the dominant framework for thinking about the short run was roughly Keynesian’. I use that label for convenience; I have absolutely no interest in ‘what Keynes really meant’. To be more specific, the framework I mean is what is sometimes called ‘American Keynesianism’ as taught to many thousands of students by Paul Samuelson’s textbook and a long line of followers.” (p. 21)
3. The anticyclical price finding in K&P was interesting, and something that is consonant with Post Keynesian pricing theory which emphasises the empirical fact that marginal cost falls for the vast majority of firms–so that even if prices are set with reference to marginal cost, it’s a reason to expect prices to fall as output expands rather than to rise.
This is another of my research interests–showing that the neoclassical micro theory of the firm is mathematically false, vacuous, and empirically invalid.
Of course Post Keynesians push a “markup” model of price setting instead, in which price is a markup on the prime costs of production–especially wages but also depreciation–and may also be set to reflect desires to raise investment funds via retained earnings.
I intended using just such a price equation in my first Circuit model, but since that didn’t then have variable wages or explicit capital, I thought that as a first pass I’d use a “neoclassical” equation where the rate of change of prices was a function of the gap between demand and supply. Of course that’s not strictly neoclassical since it was explicitly dynamic rather than a static equilibrium construct, but I still expected it to display “neoclassical” properties, in that I expected a credit crunch to lead to a fall in the price level absorbing most of the shock, and only a tiny amount being transmitted to output and employment.
I got one hell of a surprise when that didn’t happen–the model showed the sort of impact on real output of a credit crunch that we’ve found in the real world: a sudden drop in demand and therefore employment and output.
I also mis-specified the original price equation (the dimensions of the equation were inconsistent; thanks again to Warren Raftshol on this list for pointing this out to me), and the initial model showed a rise in prices during the credit crunch, rather than a fall. That was reversed by a properly specified equation, so that the credit crunch caused a fall in output and a fall in prices.
I am still contemplating how to model prices in the expanded version, but this now raises questions of overdeterminism and parsimony.
Overdeterminism: maybe the PK model is capturing the necessary existence of a physical and monetised surplus–which is already in my model–twice rather than once.
Parsimony: the main effect I’m trying to capture is the specific impact of a debt-deflation, when firms slash margins in order to hang on to market share and cut their debt, but in so doing depress the general price level and increase the debt to GDP ratio. The “flow to stock” (demand-supply gap to price) causal mechanism I currently use captures that nicely and I am not sure that a change to a variable markup would do any better.
The GD of course is an order of magnitude and qualitatively different phenomenon to the cyclical downturns the K&P paper measured, and I expect that the longer term data you nominate which includes it would find something different. I’ll chase that paper up–thanks for the reference.
4. Now I’ll give you a reference: Eugene F. Fama and Kenneth R. French (2004), “The Capital Asset Pricing Model: Theory and Evidence”, Journal of Economic Perspectives-Volume 18, Number 3-Summer 2004 Pages 25-46. In that F&F finally abandon the CAPM:
“The attraction of the CAPM is that it offers powerful and intuitively pleasing predictions about how to measure risk and the relation between expected return and risk. Unfortunately, the empirical record of the model is poor-poor enough to invalidate the way it is used in applications.
The CAPM’s empirical problems may reflect theoretical failings, the result of many simplifying assumptions. But they may also be caused by difficulties in implementing valid tests of the model… In the end, we argue that whether the model’s problems reflect weaknesses in the theory or in its empirical implementation, the failure of the CAPM in empirical tests implies that most applications of the model are invalid.” (pp. 25-26)
5. I don’t think or say that debt to GDP will return to some pre-ordained “universal long term level”, but that they will certainly fall once asset price speculation ceases being profitable (something the Australian government’s policies have delayed, and the US’s have temporarily reversed), and when they do it sets off a chain reaction process that aggregate demand continually runs below aggregate supply and further depresses output and asset prices–which encourages even more falls in the debt to GDP ratio.
It’s that feedback effect that I’m focusing on. Excessive debt has only been on to finance leveraged speculation on asset prices, but that speculation has financed a large part of aggregate demand for commodities as well. With speculation ending and asset prices falling–or simply reverting to trend (the DJIA on its 1914-1999 trend is still about 10 years ahead of itself)–debt will stabilise and therefore the change in debt will stop contributing to aggregate demand. That alone is enough to set the process off, unless the government bulkwards it up with its own spending (whether debt-financed or not).
Incidentally, I very much enjoyed the chance to flesh these points out, and I’m tempted to make your question and my response into a blog entry. Would that be OK by you?
September 1st, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Thanks for the article Joshua.
Looking at the US vs Aussie home prices graph from that article surely it can be seen that we have some pain to come. Even this is acknowledged by Mr Joye:
“To be sure, Australian house prices might one day
fall by the magnitude predicted by Stevie—but it is
rather unlikely to occur during the next decade barring
the outbreak of war or the wholesale collapse of the
Australian economy”.
The ballsing that Steve is copping now is similar to the ballsing Peter Schiff was copping in the US in 2006.
The fact that is not considered is that wages growth has been outstripped by the growth in leverage in the last ten years by a factor of nearly 2 – eventually house prices cannot rise as wages will not support – its a fact.
I think that as everything improves everyone has forgot what caused the GFC problem in the first place – excess leverage in US households and an inability to repay debt.
Australia has the excess leverage – capacity to service that leverage will be tested sometime in the future.
September 1st, 2009 at 4:26 pm
yes ken i think the ultimate consequences of deleveraging may take many electoral cycles to fully play out,
we may have to get to the recession of 2017/2020
as they say all politics is local,
jobs, houses and wallets,
currency monopolists hell bent on political survival and social stability will run deficits into the forciable future, and push hard agianst the tide of deleveraging, and no one will complain too loudly if it enables the rest of us to tread water on the sea of debt.
i think we sometimes make the mistake of seeing economic processes as having an inexonarable internal logic of their own, conveniently assumming that us mere mortals do not have the whit or where whithal to push back against adversity.
in my opinion the political dog will often wag the economic tail, apologies for the theft steve.
so if we are of a mind to thinking this economic crissis will only get worse over time, may be the reasons why will lie in the political realm, in processes currency monopolists dont control.
so what could they be.
well creative inertia could be one reason. political correctness that has established itself over the last decade about the evils of deficits could rear its ugly head.
but this is unlikely given the primacy of the focus group in the political food chain, and the loss of credibility of those who have advocated the surplus mantra.
another potential weaklink in the chain is global currency arbitrage. if currency monopolists around the world decide to take the easy option and go down the indefinate deficit path, as oppossed to undertaking radical surgery on their respective banking systems, we could have a crisis in the global currency system and as a consequence the global trading system.
i suppose the rule is, look for processes that require international co ordination, where national self interest could arise, and in the pursuit of national interest we get total system failure
ultimately i’m in the william reese mogg school, that underlying geo political forces will ultimately bring down this economic hire wire act.
in this regard i thouroughly recommend we all read “blood in the streets” and “the great reckoning”. even if you disagree with the conclusions, they are a fascinating read for the historical treatise alone.
our economic fortunes wont be determind by treasuries and central bankers, it will determined by geo political rivalry for hegemonic influence, and resources.
it will be determind by whether china , a world within a world, manges to overcome the curse of its troubled historical past,
it will be determined by how the chinese and the americans negotiate the future as we hurtle towards it,
it will be determined by how the ayatollahs , princes and kings of the midlle east negotiate the transition from patriacal feudalism to modernity
September 1st, 2009 at 4:47 pm
The “China” story is unravelling.
This 1 of 3 pillars underpinning the Aussie economy that is being trumpeted about so much lately. The other 2 being US/Global greenshoots/recovery and Rudd’s ballsout spending.;
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a_HKcbuNhs0U
“The Shanghai index plunged 6.7 percent to 2,667.75 today, the most since June 2008 and entering a bear market, on concern a slowdown in lending growth may derail a recovery in the world’s third-largest economy. Xie said the index “should be 2000 or less.”
“At least 150 stocks on the 898-member Shanghai index dropped by the daily 10 percent limit. Industrial Bank Co. and Aluminum Corp. of China Ltd. tumbled by the permitted cap after Caijing magazine reported new loan growth this month may be almost half that of July. Lower profits dragged Baoshan Iron & Steel Co., the nation’s biggest steelmaker, and China Southern Airlines Co. down at least 7 percent. Chinese stocks are trading at the steepest discount in the world compared with analysts’ price targets after this month’s slump in the benchmark index.”
September 1st, 2009 at 5:35 pm
The arguments given by Steve seem to me the best I have found in the net. This unrelated, but what about devaluation or debt repudiation? Wouldn’t be those possible policy responses if it were to reduce rich countries debt and affect mostly developing nations like China with huge dollar reserves and export driven industries? (not that I favor this outcome).
Wouldn’t be a bit like foreclosing your house?: It gives you bad ratings, but it offloads a huge burden from you. And since you are a mafia don that happens to be the richest fella in neighborhood, you can always expect lenders to come back in the future… The Chinese take away will swallow its hatred of you for all the unpaid noodles it gave you over the years, but what else can he do?
I am pretty ignorant about economic matters, so I am not pretending to say that the answer is an easy one. Just trying to understand.
September 1st, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Wasabi,
You are 100% right on that- did not read into the indent and commentary. Still, its a moot point: I think it is silly to say it was leisure induced downturn, conscious or unconscious (that is, unknown institutional variables that made workers work less, despite them wanting to work) that caused the Great Depression. The argument seems arbitrary and rather unsupported.
Although it seems at least one Nobel Prize winning economist is getting it- Vernon Smith points out that it was debt from the previous construction boom helped cause the Great Depression (and given 25% of GDP was in construction, I’d call that a reasonable starting point)
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/602/story/939371.html
Importantly, he notes:
“Large numbers of adjustable-rate mortgages will reset at higher rates in the next couple of years, putting more households at risk of foreclosure and piling more losses on mortgage lenders. And sharp drops in consumer spending have yet to play themselves out in the commercial real estate markets. Increasing numbers of commercial loans to retailers are likely to go sour in the months ahead”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123897612802791281.html
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/132717.html
We do indeed live in interesting times.
September 1st, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Steve,
You refer to the FHOG as delaying a lot of the deleveraging but there’s something else that the government has done that has actually resulted in property prices going up even further. That is, their loosening of the foreign ownership laws in March (nobody’s mentioned it here as far as I could see). In the months preceding March, property prices had started to decline rather rapidly. Since March though (roughly), I believe there’s a been a sudden spike upwards at the upper end. Low interest rates can only explain part of this as we’ve experienced relatively low interest rates since Oct/Nov 2008.
The media hasn’t touched this issue with only a few references to be found, including a buyer’s advocate recently mentioning the impact of the changes–taken from http://www.theage.com.au/national/housing-market-rebounds-20090731-e4k8.html:
“‘‘The upper end led all the (price) falls in the last six months of last year but by March it was becoming apparent that there has been significant increases,’’ he said. ‘‘On the demand side, the influx of Chinese buyers has been extremely strong, with estimates of one in four buyers or more.‘‘”
For me, this signifies that the government will do WHATEVER it takes to prevent a property crash (largely for the sake of our banks). When they open the flood gates to foreign ownership, that renders our nation’s debt problems as less relevant and I fear that the overdue correction may never come. Even if China’s economy crashes, they’ll always have more money than us to buy up Australian property. Your thoughts?
September 1st, 2009 at 6:46 pm
I think we tried that with Japan in 1990 with commercial property, didn’t we? Only worked for a few months before everything came tumbling down both here and there- but rui it’s interesting isn’it it- they are playing every trick in the book- a) softening laws on foreign ownership, b) stimulus packages which go to pay the mortgage, c) lower interest rates, d) home buyers grant AND one in commercial property (recall Kev spent a few million on commerical property too)*, e) planned cuts in capital gain and land taxes, f) bogusly high valuations on land, g) rumours in the news that property prices are rising again and of a ‘pending’ building boom – just so the economy is strong right before the election.
I’d say Rory would be walking, if it weren’t for all this government intervention (Steve should give some thought about becoming an Austrian, ha
).
But because all of this is artifical (the home buyers grant will run out, the ownership will fall as China has problems, interest rates will rise over time etc) we should see a massive dive and crash. The government is merely making things worse just so they can be elected and then hope to ride out the crash over the coming 3 years- only they will realise how screwed they are- they should of popped the bubble as soon as they got into office, blamed it on Howard and GFC- now its going to be more difficult to blame anyone but themselves.
*
http://business.smh.com.au/business/rudd-4b-property-boost-20090124-7oz7.html
September 1st, 2009 at 6:48 pm
spadijer89,
The WSJ article link is great, thanks.
Mr Gjerstad notes in his summation that ” The causes of the Great Depression need more study, but the claims that losses on stock-market speculation and a monetary contraction caused the decline of the banking system both seem inadequate. It appears that both the Great Depression and the current crisis had their origins in excessive consumer debt — especially mortgage debt — that was transmitted into the financial sector during a sharp downturn.”
The more I read, learn and hopefully understand the more concerned I am of the possible consequences for our economy when our bubble deflates.
September 1st, 2009 at 8:07 pm
There’s one more trick that Christopher Joye is proposing the government to do- letting mortgage repayment be paid with pre-tax income.
September 1st, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Well deleveraging is in full force in the UK.
UK mortgage paybacks exceed new borrowing in July
“LONDON — Britons paid off their mortgages at a faster rate than they borrowed in July, the first time that has happened since records began in 1993, the Bank of England said Tuesday.
The bank said mortgage repayments exceeded new borrowing by 418 million pounds ($680 million) on a seasonally adjusted basis in July.
The number of loans approved for house purchase, however, rose to 50,123 in July compared to 47,891 in June, the Bank said. Mortgage approvals do not always lead to money actually being advance to a borrower.
Mortgage approvals remained well below the long-term monthly average of 93,400.”
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/09/01/business-eu-britain-lending_6835420.html
September 1st, 2009 at 9:37 pm
The game has gone into extra time therefore the bet should be live until the final whistle. There are no Golden Points.
September 1st, 2009 at 9:52 pm
Guys was i too harsh on Christopher Joye?
I found my original post was trimmed down and altered and I reposted my original post only to find both deleted and now i cant post anymore
. Steve submitted the email in this thread regarding rory walking down the line if Steve calls turns out to be correct on Chris’s site.
Here is my original post
Chris you are the greatest pretender.
According to email Steve has posted below you were CC’d and rory agreed to walk if the slump does occur. This makes the bet meaningless that Steve walks before the party has just began. You can validate it by rory clarifying what he meant in the bet. So only rory knew what he had in mind. Nevertheless Steve is a Gentleman has stood by his word and the crazy bet and agreed to walk.
What does it say regarding your character? To deliberately malign someone just because his predictions have been spot on so far and could very well be right in due course of time? Seems to be you and rory want to make sure no body takes Steve seriously just out of fear he might be right. You think that is going to stop the train reck? Well if this is what you are capable of churning out then I can only conclude either you are ignorant or one of the greatest pretenders!
September 1st, 2009 at 10:13 pm
And here’s a bit more ‘good’ news.
UK manufacturing recovery runs out of steam
The recovery in Britain’s manufacturing sector unexpectedly stalled last month as companies continued to cut jobs and growth in new orders slowed.
The news came as another report predicted that rising unemployment will drive more than 5,000 retailers out of business next year.
The Chartered Institute of Purchasing and Supply/Markit’s monthly index of manufacturing dipped to 49.7 in August from a downwardly-revised 50.2 in July. The figure, which shows that the sector contracted last month, is the first fall since February and confounded City expectations of an improvement to 51.5.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/sep/01/manufacturing-sector-recovery-stalls
Hey Joshua I went to post a correction to a post I made on CJs page and found I was unable to do it…?
September 1st, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Steve Keen,
re Japan – I thought Japan was the prototype for a post-war balance sheet recession.
September 1st, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Wow this is a bit wild if it’s true
UPDATE 1-Beijing’s derivative default stance rattles banks
“BEIJING, Aug 31 (Reuters) – A report that Chinese state-owned companies will be allowed to walk away from loss-making commodity derivative trades provoked anger and dismay among investment bankers on Monday as they feared it may set a damaging precedent.”
“The State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission, the regulator and nominal shareholder for state-owned enterprises (SOEs), told six foreign banks that SOEs reserved the right to default on contracts, Caijing magazine quoted an unnamed industry source as saying in an article published on Saturday.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/wtUSInvestingNews/idUSSP47327420090831
September 1st, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Steve,
You may certainly use my questions in your blog entry.. however I suggest that you did not fully tackle my point about CAPM.
You merely repeat that Fama / French think CAPM does not work. There is no dispute that this is their position. But – and it is a big but – they believe prices are rational even though CAPM must be rejected.
They write in the same paper that you cite(The Capital Asset Pricing Model:
Theory and Evidence)
“When tests reject the CAPM, one
cannot say whether the problem is its assumption that prices are rational (the
behavioural view) or violations of other assumptions that are also necessary to
produce the CAPM (our position).”
Wasabi
ps: Fama/French have their own blog
September 1st, 2009 at 11:00 pm
clive,
Derivatives cost Polish companies a few billion as well:
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssBanks/idUSLH53938520090217
the only difference is that China has nukes and 35 times larger population.
How many divisions have the investment banks?
September 1st, 2009 at 11:12 pm
So true ak
September 1st, 2009 at 11:48 pm
JK
The apparent contradiction between falling corporate debt levels and increased investment is surely answered by the fantastic amount of equity capital that has been raised in the last 18 months. Gottliebsen reported that Australia absorbed 15% of all world equity raisngs in the last 12 months.
Unfortunately, the corollary of such a level of equity raisngs is a further sell-off of Austrlia to Foreigners. But who gives a rats! If we stay drunk we might never have to face reality before we die…leave that to the kids!!!
Ernie…re the CAD…don’t worry about it. No one else does!!! We can just keep borrowing and selling the country off ad infinitum. I don’t know why everyone around here is so stupid and can’t simply understand this…like Glen, Ken, Wayne Rory et al do!!! Hells bleedin bells!!
September 2nd, 2009 at 12:00 am
spadijer
I’m also still totally without any understanding as to why Rudd et al just didn’t sheet home the blame to the Howard Government. Much of the blame certainly lies there. I suspect, however, the answer lies in the fact that all govts for the last 50 years have been involved in the fraud. If people start looking seriously at the poloitcal and economic history of the last 50 years, the credibility of the whole system as to how and why it got us here will be in question…and we can’t have that!!!
Just as a point of clarification I am a conservative by birth and inclination.
September 2nd, 2009 at 12:25 am
This bloke calls the Chinese stock market a giant ponzi scheme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZCfjScV8ss&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.google.com.au%2Fnews%2Fsection%3Fned%3Dus%26topic%3Db%26ict%3Dln&feature=player_embedded
September 2nd, 2009 at 12:46 am
I had a read of Christopher Joye’s latest article over at BSpectator. Yee ha baby is all I can say. So maybe Chris can explain to me why my super fund is down 17%. At the same time he could explain why my employer has cut my hours, cut overtime to nil and is cutting costs in every way. In a little over two years we have gone from thinking that the boys and girls at the RBA are some kind of all knowing gods to well I don’t know.
You see Chris we workers are quite happy to leave it to the experts. There’s a good reason for leaving the servicing of a jet engine to a qualified LAME. But when things go pear shaped like when someone works for Qantas engineering unlicensed for nearly a year well questions need to be asked don’t they. We workers actually have a brain and start asking questions. So along came the prof and he had a clue and seemed to know what was happening when allot of other people were scratching or ducking for cover. I don’t know about anyone else but that really unnerved me. How could Lehman brothers go bust. What happened at AIG and what are CDO’s and why aren’t they strictly regulated and controlled. How did Bernie Madoff slip under the SEC noses for twenty years and nearly $60B running a ponzi scheme. We have it would appear our very own Bernie here in Adelaide and of course Storm and ANZ’s broking arm. What about ABC learning centres?? So now the prof has lost one bet. OK so how does that kill his credibility compared to that small list of shame??
Steve has already admitted that he wouldn’t make the bet again. That’s a big tick in my view when someone’s willing to admit a mistake. Steve Keen has lost a bet, oh my god it like totally disqualifies him from commenting on economics ever again. Get real and the fact that all these shameful people destroying things were going on under the noses of the economics community and what a hand full of thousands of economists were warning about it. It won’t change the fact that many people want to know why the powers that be didn’t see this coming and act. Were all one big happy economic world after all aren’t we. Why do we have these rolling disasters over time. If economics is so advanced and Steve Keen a dribbling idiot why Sir do we have these continual financial F*** ups.
Steve has had a go at asking and answering these questions and all the best to him for it. When he walks up that mountain he can do so with his head held high because and are you listening Chris, he called this mess before it happened. How many others did that. Us workers also have the damned funny feeling that we are not out of this mess yet. Don’t call me a doom sayer or a bear. I’ve seen the green shoots stuff and hope you guys are right, I really do. What I do want though is for the people whom were obviously asleep at the wheel, to take a bex get over the hang over and ask themselves some hairy questions so this doesn’t happen again and I can go back to worshipping my RBA doll. I and I am sure every other blog member here want and hope that Steve is wrong and the people in charge have got a handle on things. Their is a very large thing called the GFC that proves that theory wrong. If Steve is right it is not going to be good for anyone. I don’t want, need or wish that on anyone. I want for Steve to be proven wrong.
For that to happen though the entire economics profession needs to be turned upside down and examined due to this worldwide failure. Because that’s what it is a complete and utter failure. You don’t learn from your mistakes if you don’t cop criticism and ask sole searching questions. Steve has been a gent and will cop it sweet. I haven’t seen allot of that from the other side yet only gloating that some bet was missed. People are suffering around the world. We need answers and we need them damned quickly Chris. I would suggest that after Steve’s walk up the mountain that Rory and yourself go for a fishing trip on his property and talk about how this mess happened and how you big boys are going to make sure it never happens again. Take Steve with you, you may find he has a few answers for you.
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:01 am
I have been reading through some chartalist papers and finding their ideas fascinating. Not convinced yet mind you.
A question has arisen in my mind as to how we delineate fiat/chartalist money and bank/credit money. If we define fiat money as high powered money, then the stock of fiat money is M0 – currency plus bank reserves.
However M0 can go up and down without relation to the amount of fiat money created by the government, since money can be created as bank money and lent out, then return to a bank reserve account when repaid, thus becoming fiat money.
So how can there be any distinction between fiat money and bank money?
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:39 am
That is an excellent question, Scepticus.
There is a paper on Mosler’s site titled “A General Framework for Analyzing Currencies and Other Commodities” or something like that. It makes the distinction you are looking for, even as it is a rather short paper.
The quick answer is that the current chartalists consider two different types of money: horizontal and vertical. Vertical money is the net financial assets created by the government sector, so it is the total national debt composed of government securities, reserves, and currency (paper and coin) less central bank lending to the private sector. The private sector’s desire for currency sets the relative size of that, while the banking sector’s desire for reserves based on reserve requirements and buffers held for payment settlement sets the relative size for reserves. The rest is necessarily held as government securities in order for the central bank to maintain an overnight target rate. Your point on M0 correctly argues this is not set by the government, but M0 is reserves + currency, not the overall quantity of vertical money. Here I am assuming the central bank does not set the target rate at the rate it pays on reserves, so current operations in the U.S. would be a bit different in that regard. At any rate, the total quantity of vertical money is set by the government aside, recognizing some of this responds to the economy, as well, such as the automatic stabilizers built into the government’s budget.
The horizontal component is credit money that is created endogenously at the demand of creditworthy borrowers, as in the endogenous money analysis of Basil Moore and others. This type of money is always characterized by the fact that both the liabilities and assets created simultaneously remain with the private sector, so there are no net financial assets created. This is not to say that there is no effect on spending and aggregate income. Quite the contrary. The point is that it is only with vertical money that the entire private sector can both raise incomes and also deleverage on net.
Again we see that the framework has nothing to do with the deposit multiplier and that in no way is it suggested that vertical money is required for the horizontal money to be created. Instead, more horizontal money increases the private sector’s leveraging of vertical money, or in other words of its net financial assets.
September 2nd, 2009 at 3:01 am
Steve writes of Prescott’s opening quote
“This statement is remarkable for a number of reasons I’ll discuss below. But though it is extreme, it does express a belief that is endemic in neoclassical economics, that a market economy is inherently stable and will always return to a stable growth path after a shock.”
What I find remarkable is the tautology of neoclassical theory by way of the use of the word “shock”. Generally, economists use the word “shock” to define something that occurs outside of the model at hand. This is distinct from acknowledging something that is outside of the actual economy. True external shocks would be things such as war, long-term climate events, or sociocultural processes like state-level cleptocracy where the economy is bled to death by an oppressive elite.
The neoclassical model simply defines away huge elements of the economy embodied in law, institutions, financial processes, biophysical resources and processes, etc. and then says – given the model it is logically true to trend toward growth or equilibrium or whatever. That is simply a tautological truth. What Keynes, Minsky, and Keen do is acknowledge required elements of the real economy and then arrive at different and more realistic conclusions. Put the biophysical environment into the model and you have ecological economics which acknowledges that all economies include a historically defined techno-structure coupled to an energetic base.
The reason neoclassical economics isn’t scientific is because it violates practical scientific realism in constructing and defining what the economy actually is.
Regarding Prescott’s reduction of labor hours theory of depression: I don’t get it. Prescott states “From the perspective of growth theory, the Great Depression is a great decline in steady-state market hours. I think this great decline was the unintended consequence of labor
market institutions and industrial policies designed to improve the performance of the economy. Exactly what
changes in market institutions and industrial policies gave
rise to the large decline in normal market hours is not
clear.”
Prescott is in effect saying that he has no idea of causal mechanism but asserts, by way of association, which way the causal arrow points. That his causal arrow happens to point in a direction desired by conservative political ideology perhaps escapes him. Given the tautological tunnel vision of the model we should expect many things to escape his attention.
September 2nd, 2009 at 3:20 am
For those interested in monetary matters, it could be worth reading the following article:
Febrero, Eladio. 2009. “Three difficulties with neo-chartalism”, Journal of Post Keynesian Economics, Vol. 31 Issue 3, pp. 523-541
Abstract: Neo-chartalists have made three assertions that deserve qualification: (1) money has value because the state accepts it for the payment of taxes, (2) the state has the ability to determine its value, and (3) private bank money can be understood as a “leverage” of fat money. Conversely, we believe that money is accepted in the last instance because it is useful for cancelling bank debt; the power of the state to determine its purchasing power is limited, and bank deposits are not a leverage of fat money. These criticisms do not challenge the validity of the whole approach but aim to make it clearer.
An interesting take on the conventional view that the private sector suffers when government engages in deficit spending.
leClaire, Joëlle J. 2009. “U.S. deficit control and private-sector wealth”, Journal of Post Keynesian Economics, Vol. 31 Issue 1, pp. 139-149
Abstract: For over 30 years, American congresses and presidencies have consistently worked to reduce federal budget deficits. These efforts at deficit reduction/surplus generation did indeed contribute in many instances to lower federal budget deficits and even created surpluses. An apparent problem with deficit reduction/surplus generation is that every time government deficits are reduced, private-sector wealth also falls. Thus, growing levels of American household and business indebtedness are closely associated with the policy of reducing federal deficits. One way of alleviating the problem of growing household indebtedness is to reverse the policy aim of reducing federal budget deficits.
September 2nd, 2009 at 3:47 am
Here’s an amusing article.
Thompson, James R.; Baggett, L. Scott; Wojciechowski, William C.; Williams, Edward E. 2006. “Nobels for nonsense”, Journal of Post Keynesian Economics, Vol. 29, Issue 1, pp. 3-18
Abstract: We apply exploratory data analysis to some of the basic models of neoclassical computational finance. These include the portfolio selection algorithm of Markowitz, the capital market line of Sharpe, and the option pricing model of Black–Scholes–Merton. We demonstrate that the Markowitzian assumption of positive correlation of expected return and volatility is not supported by the data. The notion that an index fund based on market cap weighting is optimal is also shown to be inconsistent with market data. It is noted that the option pricing model of Black–Scholes–Merton is not supported by market history. The SIMUGRAM, an empirical data-based paradigm for portfolio selection, is discussed. It is observed that some of the basic contemporary strategies of neoclassical computational finance may be seriously flawed and might profitably be replaced by data-based rules. We conclude that several Nobel Prizes in economics have been awarded for nonsense.
On inflation targetting.
Angeriz, Alvaro; Arestis, Philip. 2006. “Has inflation targeting had any impact on inflation?”, Journal of Post Keynesian Economics, Vol. 28, Issue 4, pp. 559-571
Abstract: This paper deals with the empirical aspects of the “new” monetary policy framework, known as “inflation targeting.” Applying intervention analysis to structural time-series models, new empirical evidence is produced in the case of ten countries. These results demonstrate that in terms of its initial impact on inflation, the empirical evidence suggests that central banks that have pursued this strategy have not been successful.
“A firm conclusion begins to emerge. Inflation targeting was
introduced well after inflation had already begun a downward direction.”
I think that Steve mentioned that central bankers believed that inflation targeting had worked but in fact it was only because the period of adopting inflation targeting coincided with outsourcing production to countries with communist slave labor which helped to reduce prices of commodities.
September 2nd, 2009 at 5:08 am
Eladio’s paper is a complete misinterpretation of chartalism.
September 2nd, 2009 at 6:26 am
z.kaat, I’m sure some specific criticism of Eladio’s paper would be appreciated. Its a very interesting topic.
On a related note I’m wondering if the (re) emergence of chartalism is a sign of some fundamental shifts in the nature of civilisation that underlies the monetary system.
Back in mercantilist times comparative advantage was accepted wisdom. When individual nations were highly specialised being organised around particular natural resources, and when basics like clothing and metal items were top of the demand tree, the import/export issue was of paramount concern.
However in the modern world any significant nation or bloc can produce most all of what it really needs so I’m not sure how we apply the concept of comparative advantage any more. Chartalism seems to me much less plausible when considered in an international/import/export context, and I’m not clear what chartalist thinking says about money vis-a-vis foreign money.
However at the same time, the truth may be that what we’re seeing is in part a departure from the old mercantilist world which still dominates so much economic thinking. A world in which trade is less important seems to bolster chartalist ideas.
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:33 am
I’ve copied the email from Rory that he would walk if the index fell 40% below 131 to Chris’s blog.
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:51 am
Hi Wasabi,
On F&F and the CAPM, yes they do say things like that but they have the air throughout of the Pope trying to deny that he has discovered the tomb of Christ with the body still inside it. Their beliefs that prices are “rational” after all the evidence they and others have accumulated contradicting that theory are frankly closer to religious than scientific.
I’ll check their blog at some stage–thanks.
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:56 am
Philip, thanks for the article titles!
I’m curious about learning more about the chartalists. Are there any good resources or papers you can point me too? That is, can anyone recommend what a “classic” within the chartalist genre is (so to speak)?
September 2nd, 2009 at 1:49 pm
spadijer89,
I don’t know much about the Chartalists. I just came across the article while reading through the Journal of PKE. Perhaps you can follow the references at the bottom of the article?
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:19 pm
More evidence the China story is unravelling.
Take a look at the links- the biggest mall in the world is sitting EMPTY, along with so many other huge buildings. China’s index is off 25% in the last few weeks.;
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/09/how-will-china-handle-yuan.html
“Professor Vitaliy Katsenelson has discussed that idea on several occasions including China’s Growth an Accounting Miracle.
Once China had announced its 8 percent growth target, it began to disburse funds directed at a sharp increase in public works spending. It is important to understand that the disbursal of funds is recorded as GDP growth. So the government can easily control the pace of growth by the pace at which it releases funds that have already been allocated in the stimulus package to the creation of higher production or growth numbers. Funds disbursed for fixed-asset investment by state-owned enterprises or provincial governments are counted as having been spent when they are disbursed.
…. I am not convinced China will have inflation in the long-run. It appears that deflation is a more likely scenario as China is ridden with overcapacity – the country was geared for much higher global growth. I can, however, see inflation erupting in a very short timeframe as money has been thrown at the consumer/companies, and we are seeing this in the stock market and real estate. But in the long run, inflation appears an unlikely outcome: overcapacity and slower demand from the US and Europe will force Chinese producers to cut prices to increase utilization and stimulate demand.
And finally, I’m sure China doesn’t want the renminbi to be the world’s currency as it would drive up the value – a suicide for an export-based economy.”
September 2nd, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Reverse Bank Robbery
“No wonder America’s banks are making profits again: the US government is bribing them to borrow its own money. Most of us work for a living, the rest are bankers.”
“The Fed has pushed rates to near zero in order to boost the economy. On the other side, banks can buy up US government bonds that are currently paying around 3.5% interest.”
“This means that we lend the banks the money that they lend back to us, albeit at a considerably higher interest rate. To take round numbers, let’s say that the banks have borrowed $1 trillion from the Fed’s various lending facilities. (The Fed’s total loans are now over $2 trillion.) Suppose they pay an average interest rate of 0.2% on this money. If the banks then buy up government bonds that pay a 3.5% interest rate, they can pocket the difference of 3.3 percentage points. On a trillion dollars of lending, this will give the banks $33 billion a year in net interest or profit. This is the extra money that the government is paying the banks to borrow back the money that it lent them through the Fed.”
http://www.truthout.org/090109R
Fiscal Stimulus Canadian Style
“Home prices are standard deviations above rental prices and wages. That may not be true of every city Canada (it was not true in places like Danville, Illinois either), but judging from housing prices in Toronto, Vancouver, etc, it is crystal clear Canada is in trouble.”
“Canadian home prices are a bubble waiting to pop. When the bubble does pop, it will take as long to fix as in the US, 6-8 years minimum, perhaps way longer, depending on how big the bubbles got in each location and the speed of the declines.”
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/08/fiscal-stimulus-canadian-style_31.html
September 2nd, 2009 at 8:55 pm
“And finally, I’m sure China doesn’t want the renminbi to be the world’s currency as it would drive up the value – a suicide for an export-based economy.””
The only way china can possibly survive is develop its own consumer economy – i.e. an economy in which chinese workers buy chinese output, with a little left over for export to pay for critical imports like oil or steel. Toa chieve this they need to focus on their own infrastructure, and crucially, on developing the basics of a welfare state such that these new consumers don’t feel the need to save all their surplus income.
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Mahaish
The (at least one) problem with the Govt having unlimited deficits financed by ‘printed’ money is it is difficult (impossible?) to control where the money goes. Clearly at the moment Govt largesse is solely going into the housing and construction industry while anyone trying to fund a new mine or factory is in great difficvulty borrowing funds.
So at the moment, rather than deficit money stimulating production it goes into “speculative assets” – real estate and shares. This is obvious world-wide at the moment. It would just be more extreme in your scenario. Any subsequent attempt to bring this asset speculation under control will smash the real economy even further. This is now the essential problem.
The second problem in not being able to control the destination of money, is that much of it would be spent on imports. Our CAD and Foreign Debt problems (not written in our own currency) would increase massively and eventually, as Steve describes, imports could virtually stop because there would be no money (in currencies not ours) to fund them.
I do find it strange that no economists in the MSM and even writers to these pages cannot see the connect between deficit spending and the CAD. That the huge Foreign debt and our equity sell-off does not scare the pants off us all is even more of a mystery!
As usual I enjoy reading your posts and get a laugh or two…thanks!
September 2nd, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Steve it appears that hedge fund guru Hugh Hendry pretty well agrees with most of what you say. matter of fact that’s the direction he’s putting his money. Doesn’t hold out a lot of hope for the OZ economy.
From THE ECLECTICA FUND FUND MANAGER COMMENTARY August 2009
“Regardless of my misgivings, the international rescue mission has opened up a key battle line in the economic debate
between Friedman and his intellectual followers such as Bernanke, who attribute the 1920s crash to the central banking response to the crisis and what they claim were the authorities’ anti-speculative measures, and their rivals who might be thought of as followers of the economists Irving Fisher and Hyman Minsky. They cite instead the build up of private debt preceding the drop in asset prices as the determining factor. My prejudices favour the latter interpretation which makes me sympathetic to the Australian economist Steve Keen’s observation that, “Bernanke’s dilemma is that he is living in a Minskian world while perceiving it through Friedmanite eyes.” [1]
When debt is modest, Keen goes on to say, changes from
one year to another can be ignored but when debt is very large it can come to play a major role in fuelling the economy. And
just as the growth in private debt from one year to the next came to have a disproportionately large impact on spending so
its contraction could hamper the authorities’ remedy; we will soon discover the answer.”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19291783/Eclectica-August-Commentary?autodown=pdf
September 3rd, 2009 at 12:42 am
Steve,
I have a query about the negative externalities imposed by the financial sector. Reading through theoretical and applied economic research, I can’t seem to grasp the kind of costs imposed by banks, hedge funds, super investments, etc. on society. Given the destruction it has wrought upon society, surely there must exist negative externalities.
I am familiar with those imposed by industrial sector (for example, pollution). Any ideas/tips about the financial sector?
September 3rd, 2009 at 12:47 am
hi z.kaat,
so one conclusion we can draw from the chartalists perspective, is that governemnts running surpluses can infact accelerate private sector leveraging activity,
interesting,
am i right or wrong
September 3rd, 2009 at 1:02 am
hi phillip,
interesting quote
“…most of us work for a living,the rest are bankers”
in the immortal word of sir desmond glasebrook,
there are two rules that bankers need to follow in their dealings which each other,
as a banker if your stupid you need to be honest, and if your a crook you need to be clever,
so an honest clever banker, someone let me know if you ever come across one, i’m sure there are a few out there
September 3rd, 2009 at 1:03 am
Been a while since I last posted – enjoying the debates and comments from all.
Before we get euphoric about the National Accounts – (and all turn into bulls) we should have a closer look at what the ABS data really shows.
MSM HEADLINE
– GDP up 0.6% seasonally adjusted. We dodged the recession – stimulus working etc etc
REALITY (Trend data)
– GDP per-capita down 0.2% – fifth quarter in a row of negative growth
– GDP market sector down 0.8% following a fall of 0.7% in March
– Real Gross Domestic Income down 1.4%
– Real net National Disposable Income per-capita down 2.6% (largest fall on record) now down 6.1% in 9 months
– Hours worked down 0.9% (a fall exceeded only by the recession of 82/83)
– Terms of Trade down 6.9% (largest fall on record)
– GDP Current Prices down 1.0% (equal largest fall on record)
Now those are not a set of numbers that I would be crowing about – it is only that most other countries are doing worse that makes this data look reasonable.
September 3rd, 2009 at 1:13 am
We’ll see what steve has to say about externalities of finance, but I’d pick these:
1. excessive speculation increases uncertainty and discourages investment.
2. excessive participation in the finance sector replaces real output (goods, useful services) with activity which simply moves money from A to B and back again. A fall in ‘real goods’ and services under a constant money supply would imply pointless price rises.
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:22 am
Just the point I tried to make in the little time and space I had for Crikey yesterday Stats Watcher.
There is a prospect of “growth” of this nature for a while now–especially given one factoid I had passed on by the Business Editor of the Sunday Telegraph Nick Gardner (incidentally, as we all know there are some in the MSM who are, to put it gently, somewhat more observant than others; Nick is definitely one of those, and a great bloke as well): recent rule changes to superannuation allow self-managed funds to borrow to speculate on property. Nick referred me to:
http://www.quantumwarrants.com.au/
With 400,000 SMSFs out there, and an average per fund of $150,000, there is $60 billion of unleveraged money out there to which lenders could provide credit at a leverage of 5:1. It’s only just begun, but that’s plenty of extra fuel for the debt creation engine if it’s allowed to run unimpeded.
I doubt that the whole $60 billion will go that way of course, but it gives an idea of the scale that is possible. I had thought there was no-one else left to lend to in Australia, so the Debt to GDP ratio would top out. Maybe not it seems!
Incidentally I tried to find the legislative or administrative ruling that allowed this change, but couldn’t. Can someone out there sleuth this one out for me?
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:25 am
And it adds to the cash flow burden on business without adding to productive capacity, and can mask de-industrialisation by the expansion of a compensatory parasitic extension of the FIREr economy (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate and some Retail); and it de-skills the population as it entices the best and brightest from where they can do some good (Engineering, etc) to where they can do harm and believe they are doing good.
I would also call these endemic problems rather than externalities; that’s a piece of neoclassical jargon that I would like to give somewhat of a lesser profile. To paraphrase the old Alien line, On Earth There Are No Externalities.
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:44 am
I tried to find the property investment legislation a couple of weeks ago and had no luck either. My concern was if there is money from super funds and other commercial investment into the residential property market, that will add more fuel to the already overheated prices, and probably keep the supply shortage going.
Not very good for people looking for a home to actually live in!
September 3rd, 2009 at 9:31 am
Can anyone comment on the global stock markets, please? In Central Europe they went down 4% last night and comments there are not optimistic.
September 3rd, 2009 at 9:37 am
Another drunken euphoria on our tarted ‘Champayne Economic’ defying the GFC gravity. As a layman economist, I can sense the ‘disaster looming’ at a larger intensity once the fasical stimulus is being pulled back!!
It’s akin to a wall of tsunami water coming from the Yanks, then hitting the European.. China and so on finally to Australia. It would make sense that we are at the end of the queue to be hit since we are a resource economy, by and large.
China and the ‘helicopter dropping money’ at the Ozzy public has boosted the public confidence or is it confidence trick by our own governing bodies to get us to spend more than we can afford… is the question?
Is there real productive economy driving the force behind our growth of 0.6%? One tends to think that this euphoria is not gonna last.. once the drunkeness wears off, the euphoria ends and the ‘get real’(as in a failing economy) feeling adorns the reality, then and then we’ll actually know that we are growing at a negative 0.7%(adjusted growth)!!
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2009/s2674778.htm
All the government is doing is transfering toxic debt from personal wallet to PUBLIC wallet. Eventually, the taxpayers foot the bill and Gen Ys will be feel the pinch!! Sad isn’t it, and I can hear a distant chant from the neo-classical bunch, yelling linch-mob the bas….t@&d, he’s calling the Emperor naked.
From mini dr doom… and finally taking the words from great scriptures ‘Thou shalt not tempt..’ and noooo…. I’m not a fanatic.
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:28 am
Steve & Ernie
S67(4A) Superannuation Industry Supervision Act 1993 (Cth)(‘SIS’) now allows s/fs to borrow using instalment warrants. To date the banks haven’t been real aggressive pushing this product – probably because it is still relatively new (S67(4A) was only effective from 24 Sept 97) and it needs to be structured in a particular way. Banks also usually require a sign off from an accountant or lawyer that SIS has been complied with.
Though I did hear about 6 months ago that CBA had spoken to their mortgage brokers about this product, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it became more common.
However, the credit figures (RBA table D02) seem to be showing that investors are staying away from residential property. The YOY change for July 2009 was only $10.9bn (compared with a peak YOY June 2004 of $43.7bn) – which is the lowest since Oct 97. In percentage terms the increase was only 3.57% – the lowest since 1990 when the RBA have started keeping figures on housing debt split between .
So if SMSF’s are out there buying up residential property it doesn’t appear that they are using property warrants and are likely to be using cash. Once a property has been purchased, you cannot use a warrant to unlook the capital to buy another asset. An SMSF also cannot use the equity in existing assets to take out a warrant.
From memory I looked at the Quantum product about 18 months ago, and I believed that it didn’t stacked up because you had to rent the property out through their property managment division and they appeared to be charging a management fee at the higher end of the scale.
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:30 am
Steve,
Re: Speculation in property with Super.
I told you so “The Government can pull out a few more aces to manipulate things”. In doing so no doubt we are toasted in the longer run.
However, for those that have sold their houses etc expect a crash in the immediate future will be utterly disappointed. Not only have they lost money from deliberate inflation of house values in addition they might have to wait for a decade or so to get back in.
This is nothing but legalized fraud from every angle.
I am very young and am seriously contemplating of migrating away from Australia. High taxes, Massive debt, GST, Land Tax, thripple whammy taxes, no savings a very stressful and hard life, debt slaves etc makes living here just not worth it. Probably start fresh somewhere else (where the bubble has burst?) and return back when the bubble has popped here. Now I have to find some place where the weather is nice an warm!
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:05 am
Great analysis Stats, many thanks indeed. I don’t listen to the MSM anymore. It is full of economic crap.
ak,
It’s not to everyones taste I know, but personally I fully believe we have started C wave down in this ongoing bear market , or are VERY close to starting it. This will be a drawn out affair probably lasting into 2012 at least. Take a read through this site if you like;
http://danericselliottwaves.blogspot.com/
The market fundamentals are awful and when you have massive insider selling at stock valuations unheard of, corrections are going to happen.This rally have been predominantly a huge short squeeze and plenty of casino gambling utilizing the greater fool theory – it has run it’s course.Even China’s markets are plunging where the so called “miracle” is happening.This next leg down will make people think twice about believing all the garbage they are fed from Govts and the MSM- super funds will be 70% down and more before this disaster has ended.
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:23 am
Steve, not sure if this is the legislative change you are talking about?
http://www.xinc.net.au/investment_loans/super_fund.htm
Superannuation property investment is now available in Australia. Self Managed Super Funds (SMSF) often want to gear their real estate investments in order to diversify risk and increase the yield on their investment, but many funds do not have sufficient money to purchase real estate outright. The Superannuation Industry Supervision Act (SIS ACT) was amended in September 2007 to allow super funds to borrow and charge their assets so long as a special structure is used
You can now choose any kind of property including residential, commercial, retail, and holiday units for a property leveraged investment. Your SMSF can purchase real estate let for business purposes from a member or a related entity (ie: this does not breach the “in house asset rule under the SIS Act). Investments in property other than “business real property are permitted provided the purchase is from an arms-length vendor.
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:44 am
Great, thanks for the research hawthorn_pessimist!
You are certainly right about the current state of the investor housing market, but I’d expect banks to start pushing this product more aggressively once the FHB boost comes to an end.
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:47 am
That’s it Starvos, and the post by hawthorn_pessimist gives the legislative line and verse:
(4A) Subsection (1) does not prohibit a trustee (the RSF trustee ) of a regulated superannuation fund from borrowing money, or maintaining a borrowing of money, under an arrangement under which:
(a) the money is or has been applied for the acquisition of an asset (the original asset ) other than one the RSF trustee is prohibited by this Act or any other law from acquiring; and
(b) the original asset, or another asset (the replacement ) that:
(i) is an asset replacing the original asset or any other asset that met the conditions in this subparagraph and subparagraph (ii); and
(ii) is not an asset the RSF trustee is prohibited by this Act or any other law from acquiring;
is held on trust so that the RSF trustee acquires a beneficial interest in the original asset or the replacement; and
(c) the RSF trustee has a right to acquire legal ownership of the original asset or the replacement by making one or more payments after acquiring the beneficial interest; and
(d) the rights of the lender against the RSF trustee for default on the borrowing, or on the sum of the borrowing and charges related to the borrowing, are limited to rights relating to the original asset or the replacement; and
(e) if, under the arrangement, the RSF trustee has a right relating to the original asset or the replacement (other than a right described in paragraph (c))–the rights of the lender against the RSF trustee for the RSF trustee’s exercise of the RSF trustee’s right are limited to rights relating to the original asset or replacement.
September 3rd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Conspiracy Quotes
“One of the reasons for conspiracy theories is an assumption that people in high places always know what they are doing. When they do something that makes no sense, devious reasons are imagined by conspiracy theorists, when in fact it may be due to plain old ignorance and incompetence.”
- Thomas Sowell
Or to put it into local terms – “When choosing between a balls up and a conspiracy, always choose the balls up”
September 3rd, 2009 at 12:31 pm
The Australian Economy.
I note that Alan Kohler makes some interesting points on the Australian economy –
1) That Australia’s current situation is largely the result of China’s decision to build up strategic stockpiles of our raw materials. However, he notes that this is largely finished now, and future sales to China will have to match demand for China’s goods – sold largely to the USA & Europe.
2) That household debt is very large, and that it has been sustained by low interest rates, reasonably stable employment, and I suggest unprecidented government stimulus.
It’s not hard to see why those in power are nervous. Looks like the house may be built on sand, and we may not be able to withstand another financial storm, as the conditions that saved us the first time may not be repeatable.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/The-recession-that-never-was-pd20090903-VHSW9?OpenDocument&src=sph
September 3rd, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Steve & scepticus,
Thanks for that. I agree that the term externalities should be dropped, as it posits that humans and the environment are external to business.
How does one even begin to develop a monetary figure from these ‘endemic problems’?
A plausible case can be made that the most inefficient economic system in post-feudal history is capitalism with its markets uncorrected for negative external effects. Thus, I would advocate that the government create an entirely new department called the Department of Public Costs, staffed with legions of researchers, to develop estimates of such ‘endemic problems’.
joshua,
Why not move to the US? If you can secure a job and some grossly inefficient and ineffective private health care insurance, it could be worth doing so. You can find yourself a nice 3 bedroom house for $500 (this is not a typo) in Toledo, Ohio. Taxes are lower over there than here in Australia.
September 3rd, 2009 at 7:48 pm
There seems to be a widely held illusion that the “stimulus” provided by the Government is just ‘free” money. The “unexpected” increased Balance of Payments deficit is one indicator that there is indeed a price to pay. Another, and although this is State not Federal, the Queensland government has been running its own “stimulus” progrmane for years, borrowing heavily to finance expenditure. The Land Tax on my warehouse has just doubled and is now over 6x what it was just 5 years ago.
Increasing taxes on the productive sector, to finance consumption (including housing) in a time of declining economic activity does not seem like the brightest of ideas to me…
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Is it time for some humour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO2eh6f5Go0&feature=related
I liked it.
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Here are some articles of interest.
Goods and services deficit balloons to $1.5bn
“AUSTRALIA’S monthly trade balance has slumped to its worst deficit in more than a year as exports remained weak, new data released today shows.”
“The was the fourth straight month the trade account has been in deficit and the biggest since May 2008.”
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,26021520-462,00.html
Beware next bubble – ANZ boss
“THE next “bubble” will come from the resources sector, putting pressure on Australia’s dollar and the economy, ANZ chief executive Mike Smith said yesterday.”
“Mr Smith said his greatest concern at the moment was the rising Australian dollar, a commodity-based currency, which would likely be artificially pumped higher by hedge funds and other investors pouring money into commodities.”
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,26020266-462,00.html
For Commercial Real Estate, Hard Times Have Just Begun
“These days, the people who buy and sell office buildings, shopping centers, warehouses, apartment buildings and hotels are hardly in a festive mood, despite some recent encouraging signs relating to the job and housing markets and a recent increase in sales of small office buildings.”
“But the damage is expected to be even greater for banks, which are holding $1.3 trillion in commercial mortgages (including apartment buildings) and $535.8 billion in construction and development loans, said Sam Chandan, the president of Real Estate Economics, a New York research company. About $393 billion worth of mortgages are scheduled to mature by the end of next year alone, and an estimated $39 billion more were due to expire this year but have been extended, he said.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/02/business/economy/02office.html?_r=1
California’s Other Real-Estate Crisis
“Data storage sites are moving out of Silicon Valley—at the state’s expense.”
http://www.thebigmoney.com/articles/0s-1s-and-s/2009/09/02/californias-other-real-estate-crisis
The Rising Tide of Unemployment in America
“For example, PhD economist John Williams [Footnote] and Paul Craig Roberts [Footnote] – former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury and former editor of the Wall Street Journal – both said in December 2008 that – if the unemployment rate was calculated as it was during the Great Depression – the December 2008 unemployment figure would actually have been 17.5%.”
“According to an article [Footnote] summarizing the projections of former International Monetary Fund Chief Economist and Harvard University Economics Professor Kenneth Rogoff and University of Maryland Economics Professor Carmen Reinhart, U-6 unemployment could rise to 22% within the next 4 years or so.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14913
Do campaign contributions help win pension fund deals?
“More than two dozen firms that have surfaced in a broad corruption investigation of public pension funds gave at least $1.97 million in campaign contributions to officials with potential influence over the funds’ investments, a USA TODAY analysis shows.”
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/funds/2009-08-26-pension-fund-political-donations_N.htm
WSJ Excludes Economists Who Recognized the Housing Bubble from Assessment of Fannie and Freddie
“It was a remarkable failure of the economics profession and economics reporters not to see the housing bubble before it burst. It is truly incredible that so many can’t see it even after the fact.”
“Yes, it is strange but true. The WSJ has a discussion of the future of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and there is no mention whatsoever of their failure to see the housing bubble in discussing the causes of their collapse. If anyone at these institutions had been smarter than Barney Frank’s dining room table, they would not have been buying and guaranteeing mortgages used to purchase homes at bubble-inflated prices. This simple act is what doomed these companies. But the WSJ and its “experts” can’t even discuss it.”
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/beat_the_press_archive?month=09&year=2009&base_name=wsj_excludes_economists_who_re
The Reluctant Landlords
“With housing prices still in the dumps, many Americans are finding themselves in the uncomfortable position of landlord.”
“Some have been forced to relocate for a job and can’t sell their houses. Others have moved, but are holding on to their previous homes, hoping for prices to rebound before selling. Many are finding that rent checks don’t come close to covering their mortgage payments.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204731804574388683272200844.html
SEC Confesses, Blew Years of Chances to Nab Madoff
“The SEC looked into the Ponzi scheme as early as 1992 but kept flubbing it, according to its own probe. In part, Bernard Madoff seemed too ‘reputable’.”
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/sep2009/db2009092_764788.htm
Study Shows Psychological Impact of Unemployment
“Against a backdrop of vanishing paychecks and dwindling savings, despair and depression are rampant, according to a study released on Sept. 3 by the John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.”
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/sep2009/db2009092_648686.htm
Economic prospects look up Down Under
“Australia beats recession to be best performing country in advanced world”
Note: This article is a ‘brickbat’.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/economic-prospects-look-up-down-under-1780872.html
Small firms are waiting for months to get paid, says FSB
“Some of the best-known companies in Britain are causing the closure of 4,000 small businesses because of the late payment of invoices, according to research published yesterday by the Federation of Small Businesses (FSB).”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/small-firms-are-waiting-for–months-to-get-paid-says-fsb-1780870.html
Keynes: the return of the Master
“The crash of 2008 shattered intellectual assumptions as well as financial institutions. Rational expectations theory and some of its spin-offs – such as the efficient markets hypothesis, which suggests that markets are able to calculate and price all risks – did not fare well. The financial meltdown did not belong to its universe. The crash brought a reminder of the volatility and fragility of capitalist economies, and an end to hopes that booms no longer culminated in busts. For a few days in September 2008, the financial authorities faced the possibility of a complete breakdown of the banking system and the onset of a new Great Depression.”
http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2009/09/keynes-economics-economy-crash
The fat cats are back
“As governments dither over financial reforms, the bankers who caused the credit crunch are stashing away new fortunes.”
http://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2009/08/bankers-financial-banks
September 3rd, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Robbo,
So do I
It’s refreshingly honest and cynically humorous
Thanks
September 3rd, 2009 at 9:44 pm
More Humour??
The Victorian Valuer General’s Office recently published some median price figures that are strangely at odds with the REIV (and others).
Quote ‘The new figures from the Valuer General includes almost every property sale in Victoria, in contrast to other published figures which do not include many results…..’ and ‘Although the VGs figures are published later than several private research companies, they are the most comprehensive available….’
According to the VG, Metropolitan Melbourne fell 3.6% in the March 2009 quarter from $385K to $371K. The REIV reported the median to be $405.5K. I suppose similar discrepancies would have existed in the June quarter numbers.
The cynic in me suggests a beat up to hose down any suggestion of a bubble forming. The article was after all written by the Herald Sun real estate editor.
Is it just me or did the likes of CJ start downplaying the heat in the market (i.e. 5-6% growth in the June qtr), the minute there was the suggestion of tightening monetary policy? It was a clear change from the previous chest beating.
September 3rd, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Joshua,
The Govt and BANKS HAVE BEEN EXTENDING CREDIT SINCE THE 70′s as best way they can to “keep the “Dream” alive. From single income to double income to all sorts of subsidy to get into housing. It finally ran its race in 2007, no more rabbits to pull out of the hat = pay back time, however, yet, wait a minute, don’t tell me, there is another one, let’s milk the compulsory super fund by borrowing against its future to keep the ponzi housing scheme alive! Votes -Votes – Votes.
Joshua, the eventual equation that savings=productivity cannot be ignored, however as you have pointed out can be postponed-how long? I don’t know.
I sold my house, my pride and joy for I know if I stay in this system of fools I will become one of them. At least I have the choice to buy back at any given time.
The other equation is -if housing is so unaffordable the alternative of renting must be better. So why not enjoy the freedom of renting whilst economic madness prevails no matter how long it takes. Life is only as long as it is. Enjoy it daily.
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:28 pm
“equation that savings=productivity cannot be ignored,”
Savings is not productivity. I have seen the above repeated over and over by various people ad infinitum.
Savings lent out again for productive purposes is productivity.
Savings not lent out because of lack of good investment opportunities or lack of borrowing demand implies falling productivity compared to the case where nothing is saved at all and all income is spent on consumption now.
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:43 pm
The global recession may already be over according the OECD.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/32668728
And yes, I am aware of the OECD predictive prowess.
September 4th, 2009 at 12:25 am
When is that bet due?
If they bet can be renegotiated on a double or nothing for 12 months later, Steve should be safe, at least that what I think, but I’m not betting,
ONE in five property owners say they will face severe mortgage stress if their monthly home loan repayments are increased, a new survey has found.
The Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) has flagged that it may soon have to lift the cash rate from the “emergency” level of 3 per cent.
Economists say the cash rate could rise to 5 per cent over the next 18 months, which would lift monthly repayments by $450 a month on an average $340,000 mortgage.
An online survey by the Loan Market Group found that 19 per cent of respondents said any increase in interest rates would push them over the limit.
The survey of 600 respondents found 38 per cent could afford to pay only $250 per month more, while 27 per cent said they would be able to pay up to $500.
Only 16 per cent said they could afford to increase their monthly payment by more than $500.
“It should be a concern to the RBA and to the federal government that 57 per cent of respondents said they can’t afford rates to go up another two percentage points,” Loan Market Group executive director John Kolenda said, releasing the survey results today.
“It’s not just the RBA that home owners have to worry about.
“There’s a strong likelihood of the major banks lifting variable rates independently.”
September 4th, 2009 at 1:55 am
Hi Steve,
Just on instalment warrants…. I have to agree that it is a very interesting piece of legislation but i feel that the practicalities of it lessen the hype of any borrowing sprees by SMSF’s.
http://www.ato.gov.au/superfunds/content.asp?doc=/content/00132054.htm
Had a read on the above which explains that the legislation came about from the Government’s response to APRA and the ATO raising concerns that the longterm practice of investing in Instalment Warrants breached existing SIS Act regulations.
Maybe a pollie high up had a major stake in them in their Super portfolio at the time? Who knows?
I have sifted through a lot of SMSF’s over the past few years and have received commentary on this subject from professional bodies (not for some time mind you as the buzz has worn off) and I can tell you that I have not encountered any instalment warrants used to acquire real estate and it’s mainly a wait and see if the major banks would really want to get in to this style of lending. The most current commentary I’ve received tells me that they are reluctant. This could possibly due to the risk of of a larger loss on default born by the lender in such an arrangement (ie not being able to recover anymore than what could be received on the sale of the property on default).
But it never say never as it still can still be done…. it just has traces of sub-prime all over it.
I suggest the following is a good read too on the implications of instalment warrants used to acquire real estate in SMSF’s:
http://www.charteredaccountants.com.au/files/documents/superannuation%20funds%20and%20warrants.pdf
Anyhow keep up the good work Steve and all your contributors. This blog is fantastic reading and is a great source of the truth.
September 4th, 2009 at 7:01 am
I am going to have to read all of this, but it is clear that the economists are either idiots or the ones that can’t see the forest for the trees have their ideas presented. The adoption of an econmic model that recognizes the truth about economic expansion in the present model means the death of the present model growth banking system along with a new arrangement of retirement savings. Without growth banking, there isnt’ any growth equity, which is propelled by inflation. Of course inflation is nothing more than the expansion of spendable and liquid asset medium through the expansion of debt and credit.
It appears to me to keep the present model along with the external investment/savings models for retirement require that capital yield a much higher return than it currently does. Otherwise, an amazing amount of debt is required to fund retirement. It appears we are about to find this out in Japan, where debt is being liquidated because savings is being liquidated. It isn’t widely understood that a high savings rate implies a high debt rate. In essence, equity is also debt, though it isn’t recognized as such. The difference is that equity is in general separate from the financial system as it would stand and thus an individual loss wouldn’t be systematic.
I have contended for some time that deposit creation has to be nationalized, though I don’t like the idea of the government controlling much of anything. It is almost impossible for the compound interest equation to stand without continued expansion of credit. The current system of private money creation, something I believe the founding fathers of the US intended to prohibit because they had evidence models like we have today would fail, eventually exposes the supply of money itself to collapse and puts the economy of the world on a perpetual debt spiral. Clearly the power structure of the world is based on this banking model. I know this sounds conspiratorial, but only a moron who understands how it works would have a different idea.
In the place of the current system, we need a system where lending would be 100% reserve based. Money, risk and lending need to be totally separate from each other. Credit debt, in its current form implies that to get out of debt the supply of money has to contract. No one bank or group of banks should be endowed with the capacity to profit by overexpansion of such a system to fund the economy. The entire systematic risk we face today can be most likely traced to a group of no more than 20 banks with the capacity to create debt money. At the head of the list is my favorite whipping boy Citicorp. The American GSE’s, FNM and FRE, though basically capital outfits, were behind the expansion of bank credit, due to their perceived government guarantees. Thus home equity was monetized instead of being capitalized due to this outlet. The current buying of home mortgages by the US Fed is quite possibly nothing more than a transfer of credit already created and already in on the credit side of the US banking industry.
Thus there are 2 questions. One may solve much of the other, as a worldwide bankruptcy could be used to liquidate bank debt and replace the system in place. It is clear that we can either do this the hard way or the easy way and more likely this will be solved by a long run liquidation of debt by default and other means. It is clear that the technique being used in the current moment amounts to nothing more than a repeat of the Japan mess that most likely would have been solved years ago if they just got out of the way and let it get finished. Would it have been systematic? Maybe, but we are now looking at a much more deadly situation as a result.
September 4th, 2009 at 7:31 am
mannfm I agreed with some of what you wrote, disagreed with the latter half.
Fisrtly, steve and others have shown that the debt/banking system does not require money supply expansion to be stable. It may be that the current financial infrastructure requires it, but an appropriately sized, regulated and compensated financial sector can be sustainable.
Secondly, a 100% reserve system effectively eliminates intermediaries who are vital, in appropriate amounts, for a flexible economy. Government cannot be an intermediary. That said, IMO government provided deposit insurance coupled with private sector risk taking with those funds is not workable. The first step is to separate utility banking used by most of the population from the rest of the financial sector. This former sector it makes sense to nationalise, and the interest on deposits in the utility banking system should be zero.
More serious is the question about how the savings/loans market can operate in a long period of contractionary economics. Even with 100% reserve, if the economy is contracting then savers will stick with 0% interest since they are making a gain in real terms, in hence there will be no investment.
The solution is to allow negative nominal interest rates and eliminate or apply demurrage to cash. If and when recovery comes and growth returns, rates will go positive once again.
September 4th, 2009 at 8:28 am
The US Bond market has been dropping over the last month, not a good sign, but the press generally doesn’t notice except http://www.breakingviews.com/2009/09/01/bond%20market.aspx?sg=nytimes
September 4th, 2009 at 10:19 am
ak asked for some comments on the global stock markets. From the analysis that Steve has done it would seem clear that as private debt makes such a major contribution to GDP then the deleveraging that is occuring will see global stock markets decline as consumers pull in their belts. However I am expecting many companies to report good profits as they cut expenses(especially staff levels) as the automatic first reaction to declining sales volume. This, combined with government spending, has, in my opinion resulted in the ‘green shoots’ that have been widely reported and led(in part) to the increase in global stock markets over the last few months.
In the US I think we are approaching a critical point – I doubt that consumer spending is coming back, the expected increasing unemployment and forecast mortgage resets(leaving many more Americans with less money in their pockets) all point to a declining US stock market – which the rest of the world will follow. The unknown is the willingness of Governments to throw even more money of the problem. They almost certainly will but as Steve explains very clearly it will never be enough.
So in the US probably choppy waters for a while around the current Dow Jones level with a downward trend coming which other markets will follow. In the event of a ‘black swan’ event then a sharp correction is very likely.
September 4th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Scepticus,
Please note that my comments are not intended as a critisism only as a guide to help my brain get around the subject matter.
You noted that it makes sense to natinalise utiity banking and that there should be 0% paid on deposits.
I do not see how such a system may work.
One of the hardest things for me at the moment is to sit on my cash watching it decrease (3% cash rate – 3.9% inflation = -0.9) while those with no savings (housing speculators) increase their wealth. And yes everyone can talk about the impending defaltionary cycle when cash will again be king – but depending on further government intervention it may not come for some time.
You also talk about a contracting economy where 0% returns are in effect positive in real terms. I agree and the maths is 100% however australia has not contracted in over 18 years so to have 0% rates in a predominantly expanding economy I think discourages savings.
Doesn’t 0% also create a need to look at alternatives to increase returns? Would this not then lead to bubbles in property and equities. Isnt this what happened in the US and Aust. through the early part of this decade.
I keep reading that one of the problems in western economies is low savings rates – wouldn’t 0% exacerbate this?
Would changing the RBA focus from inflation targeting to a specific rate setting say 7% create a more level playing field? Savers are rewarded and borrowers are more circumspect and speculation not as rampant.
September 4th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Theatre of the absurd
Observant piece by Alan Kohler.
“The debate about ‘exit strategies’ from fiscal and monetary stimulus is really just another form of spin – a way to get us all to focus on the splendid job our leaders did in saving us from economic calamity.
And indeed we were saved, and Rudd saw what he made and, behold, it was good.
The crisis allowed the normal rules of prudent budgeting to be thrown out and a massive Niagara of fiscal pork to be unleashed. Cash was handed out, rebates and subsidies paid, and as previously discussed here, the nation is becoming festooned with plaques and billboards announcing nation building projects that will be remembered by local electorates when it comes time to vote. The opposition is reduced to whining that, really, it’s time to stop already.”
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Theatre-of-the-absurd-pd20090904-VJSRK?OpenDocument&src=sph
September 4th, 2009 at 11:20 am
This is interesting as it suggests that our Labor overlords actually know perfectly well what’s going on:
“In unusually candid remarks, Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner told The Age the mining boom of the past decade had masked underlying problems that have left the economy vulnerable to external shocks and excessively dependent on overseas borrowing.
Lamenting Australia’s ”pretty ordinary household savings rate” and its ”very mediocre export performance”, Mr Tanner said many benefits from reforms introduced in the 1980s had now run their course.
”There is a mixture of issues there which we ignore at our peril,” he said. ”Our economic policy needs to be informed by the central question: what will we be selling to the rest of the world in 10 or 15 years time?””
http://business.smh.com.au/business/tanner-decries-chronic-weaknesses-in-economy-20090903-f9yx.html
September 4th, 2009 at 11:39 am
ak,
thanks for the link.
The issues raised in that article lead back to my previous post questioning the rationale behind low interest rate settings that lead to a reduction in the savings rate and an increase in cheap debt.
Is simply raising the target rate to 7-8% an option or will this have unintended consequences, other than deflating the housing bubble and bankrupting inefficient business?.
September 4th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Debtjunkies…your maths is wrong!! 3% interest – say 35% of 3% TAX = 1.95%-3.9% inflation = -1.95%!!! Taxation effects are never quoted in real interest rate discussions and I always wonder why.
Scepticus
I think there is one more problem in your interest rate scenario. Forgive me if I am totally ignorant but I don’t think Steve has got as far as including Current Account effects in his model? So as well as the speculative excesses debtjunkies points to, we would also have a blow-out in the CAD and thus major financing problems. The current disastrous external debt situation surely has its origins in negative after-tax real interest rates almost continuously for 50 years?
Again I am a bit like debtjunkies and I post mainly to learn….although sometimes a good rant makes me feel better !!!!
One more note…I was thinking maybe your solutions relate to how we ought operate if we were starting from scratch (and I’d be still a sceptic). 0% interest rates are not going to help us overcome this mountain of debt we have accumulated as a result of past negative interest rates. My old physics education tells me if you have a long period of negative you need at some stage a period of quite positive to rebalance things. Sorry for the simplicity but I’m getting on a bit and been through a lot of financial mills in my time….I just KNOW you get nothing for nothing…no matter how you fiddle with ‘stimulus’, interest rates etc. Again simplistic, I know, but it took me a lot of years to learn that simple fact.
As I’ve said elsewhere…sort of like the First Law of Thermodynamics
September 4th, 2009 at 11:53 am
debtjunkies The BIS, shortly before this GFC thing hit, published a rather extensive paper on the setting of interest rates and the function of interest rates. It basically questioned all the current theories on the appropriate levels of interest rates and more favoured your (and my own )type of reasoning. It created quite a stir in the Economic world. If I can find the paper again I will post it.
September 4th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Thanks Oracle.
September 4th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
ak,
It’s a bit rich Tanner lamenting household savings, when he and his Govt are spending not only ALL of the previous decade’s public savings, but also the NEXT decade of potential savings as well. Leaving the nation with a similarly large black hole balance sheet as many households.
Tanner is a politician first and foremost.His first priority is to get re-elected.He is hell bent on spending his way into the next ballot box win. Anything he utters is therefore worthless other than a guide to what evil plans he has to get his filthy mits on my wallet.
September 4th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
While I am no fan of Rudd et al and their spending, of all of them Tanner I think has the best head but is constrained by the public persona that is expected of senior cabinet members.
When the issue of taxing the family home was recently raised, Hockey went on the attack during question time and referred to comments by Tanner (during either the 80′s or 90′s) that the favourable taxation of the family home was not the best of policies – or words to that effect.
I think tanner understands some of the floors in the current system and the misallocation of capital and risk but is unable to let fly on the issue because it is completely opposite to what his mates are advocating.
Deep down, I think tanner truly understands the housing issue and what should be done.
Still wont vote for em!!!!!!!
September 4th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
How bad will it get?
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney09032009.html
September 4th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Further to my comments about Tanner here is a link to article about tanners former staements and the questions he faced during parliament over his comments.
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/pm-unaware-of-rich-homes-tax-review-20090817-eng3.html
As noted before I think he understands the issue, especially to have been able to identify it as a concern back in 1994.
September 4th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
To anyone interested:
I started playing with some CPI data and got a bit carried away… First charts, then a blog post… If you’d like to see comparative graphs of CPI (including the component breakdown) in the US today versus the Great Depression and post-1990 Japan, take a look. You can always skip the commentary and click on the graphs, but either way, thoughts and opinions are welcome.
http://www.thoughtofferings.com/2009/09/price-deflation-today-versus-great.html
September 4th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
BTB and other experts,
Please take note that gold will be trading at 1224 by November 5.
My advice has been right and will continue to be correct.I told you about the bottom in gold in July and was questioned by BTB, i did not answer because i felt sorry for BTB and his fellow Prechterites who have been wrong on gold for 8 years and will continue to be wrong for another 8 years.
Everything that has been written on this website, has any of it been of any use to anyone?
Has anything come of it?No not really.
Trust me people load up on gold and forget the rubbish about deflation
I have proven myself no one else on this site can say that.
BTB if gold goes to 2000 Prechter will still say that it is a Bwave to be followed by the C wave correction to below 680. Bullchit!!!!!
Stick with me.
September 4th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
debtjunkies, I was only proposing 0% on deposit-insured current accounts that you use for day to day stuff like paying bills and getting paid your salary.
With your surplus savings, yes you should be able to go out and seek out a better return, but I don’t see why I as a taxpayer should susbsidize your risk taking by paying to insure your lending. Anything over 0% should be a risk should it not – after all, a return on investment should not be guaranteed.
By creating a 7% rate of return on deposits AND insuring it for you free of charge, we have created a risk free asset returning 7%, which is a rediculous state of affairs.
September 4th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
I think that guaranteeing all deposits in the first place was ridiculous.
From a personal point of view I am happy to accept 100% risk all my invetsmets whether they be cash or shares.
The govt should remove all guarantee’s however there must be 100% disclosure on all deposits to ensure the finacially unaware realise this.
As with most blog entries 99% has been lost in translation.
September 4th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
outback, steve has shown with his dynamic credit circuit analysis that expanded lending is not required year on year to sustain a debt based monetary system.
That implies that the system will operate properly without money supply expansion assuming interest rates are correctly set. At least I think that’s what his model shows.
So I believe one can have either +ve interest rates, or -ve interest rates without any change in the money supply at all, and hence no change in the value of the currency. Likewise, you can have excessive money supply creation under either +ve or -ve rate scenarios.
Banks will increase the money supply only if there is an increased demand for money. If we assume for a moment that loans would return to being made for productive purposes (as opposed to being made for speculation and consumption), then in a 0 growth or contractionary scenario like we face, there would be no demand for new money.
So as long as underwriting standards return to sanity, and if speculation can be contained then -ve nominal rates would work fine, and would simply serve to maintain the veolocity of money at levels which keeps the economy at reasonable levels of output and employment , without changing the money supply size.
Obviously these are big ifs, but it is helpful to separate how the system could work in future under more sane conditions, and how it works (or not) now.
September 4th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Are you people serious with the rubbish that you are talking about?
What the hell does it all mean and what does it have to do with anything at all?
I have given you profitable information and all you seem to babble on about is standard deviations of pi squared.
WAKE UP YOUR WORK MEANS NOTHING!!!!
September 4th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
good to hear from you outback ,
rant all you like, i’m sure this site is de facto therapy for alot of us,
better to rant than have wayne swan bouncing off the windscreen of your car,
sympathise about your point on the cad,
but i think the end game in all of this is probably going to be the collapse of the global currency and trading system, probably brought on by geo political miscalculations by any number of people .
my favourite is the north koreans
the current economic M.A.D (mutually assured destruction)doctrine being followed by the chinese and americans will one day come undone if it hasnt allready as a consequence,
only good thing is, that we can be self sufficient if we put our minds to it, so not getting money from the rest of the world might be just the kick up the pants we need to start getting creative
September 4th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Elliotwave.
You certainly have a way about you in winning freinds with your persuasive manner. I LOVE IT! Makes me think that your know all the answers It is wasted here on this site. Geez you should be advising the Govt. Kev needs your help. Please don’t speak to phlebs like me that are so ignorant when you have so much to offer.
By the way the only shares I have are GOLD shares. however I am not arrogant enough to claim that a past standard of mineral in today’s language is enough to be an alternative currency. Using the currencywe have should be with proper control be enough to conduct a balance economy. Ther is no proof that GOLD ever balanced an economy. Perception is not fact-
September 4th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
elliotwave
I forgot to mention that I am relying on well informed people like you to increase th “Gold” fever and make me enough money to retire for without people with delusion our society would not be were it is.
Thank you for keeping the fantasy alive.
September 4th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Gold has been and will always be money, not a commodity.It never has been and never will
Did gold not act perfectly when at 258 we were coming off a 20 year bull market in currencies?
Now we are in a bear market for currencies and a bull market for real money gold.
GOLD IS MONEY DO NOT FORGET THAT IT WILL COME IN HANDY FOR YOU IN THE COMING YEARS
Please do not tell me that you own newcrest and lihir.
September 4th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Hi elliotwave
Why is Jim Sinclair not as bullish on silver…or is his attitude changing?
What form of gold does Jim Sinclair recommend, 1/2oz 1oz coins?
September 4th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
You tell me Chiswick, you seem to know so much about the great man.
What have you learnt from the greatest investor in the world?
September 4th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
US unemployment rate just came out up from 9.4 to 9.7
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
September 5th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Hi elliotwave
Last I read was that he believed silver would continue to perform like a commodity…he was not a fan.
I gather he likes 1oz gold coins?
I like him a lot but most other experts in precious metals like silver…Bob Chapman recommends a ratio of 70/30 gold over silver.
September 5th, 2009 at 12:45 am
Elliotwave, You are my hero, I am now in your command. What should I do next master??? Buy Gold?? Wait for a pullback?? Or is it straight to $10000 an ounce?? I will await guidance from the great oracle before making my next trade.
September 5th, 2009 at 5:45 am
Paul Krugman takes all economic schools (well almost all) to task and comes up with with…?
I’m not really sure, other than Keynes may be resurrected. Not surprising from a Keynesian.
September 5th, 2009 at 7:48 am
Hi Elliotwave,
I have been away for a few days.
Just typed out a huge sarcastic reply and then deleted it. Don’t want flame outs now do we.
Prices go up and down. I was wrong on silver (this time). My stops saved me from big time loss though.
One thought I will share. You dumped on the deep thinkers on this site (I’m not one of them, I wish I was). Challenging the dominant paradigm, critical thinking and innovative thought is of much greater value than gold. I think you have caught the bug and are running with the herd. It is very comforting to run with the herd. Right up until the point that the herd gets slaughtered.
Good luck!
Below average minds discuss people. Average minds discuss people’s ideas. Great minds discuss new ideas.
September 5th, 2009 at 7:56 am
Saw this story on Calculated Risk this morning. Very interesting.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/lost-decade-for-job-growth-2009-09-04
“Yes, the very segment of the economy that was supposed to thrive under the Bush administration ended up with a net loss of 223,000 jobs since August 1999, according to the latest figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Meanwhile, the nation’s population has grown by 33.5 million people.”
September 5th, 2009 at 8:09 am
I guess thats 1 nil to me then BTB.
Keep following Prechter on gold and you will be the one that gets slaughtered and that i will guarantee.He has been wrong and will always be wrong because he believes fundamentals dont count.
Keep shorting gold, i love taking your money.
September 5th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Is there a conspiracy to poison our nation with debt? No, not at all. A conspiracy would require keeping things secret.
” LANDLORDS are claiming $11 billion in tax deductions a year as a negative gearing frenzy grips the property market.
The tax grab from property “losses” – the richest potential deduction for individuals – is about four times the amount claimed 10 years ago.”
http://www.news.com.au/business/money/story/0,28323,26029676-5017313,00.html
Here we have an arrangement which is known perfectly well to anyone and the majority of people in Australia actually accept it.
Will it lead to a meltdown? I am not sure. But for sure it makes our economy less competitive. Imagine that in countries where housing is less expensive you can pay an employee $500-$1000 less per month and still the same amount of money is left for other consumer goods. We have a very efficient income and welfare redistribution system.
Another reason why we are stuck in trade deficits for a long period of time is that our currency is loved by foreign investors driving it higher (by buying bonds and investing directly). Again this is a principle of the economic policy – not an artefact. The Chinese are sometimes called mercantilists what places them in the 18th century but we are a modern highly developed service based economy. We should run deficits.
This is an antiquated article explaining why running deficits would be good:
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_bartlett/bartlett200311050823.asp
What will happen when the international financial markets finally “take fundamentals into account”?
September 5th, 2009 at 9:07 am
BTB, great reply to EW – concise yet comprehensive.
Regarding jobs and that CR link, my take is that jobs are the big thing now. Next, it’ll be deficits and the debate over taxation of future generations, which then leads directly into a young vs old confrontation that’s brewing just over the horizon, to be fought on the fronts of welafre, healthcare, savers vs borrowers and immigration. After that, peak oil.
Exiting times. Our hearts are going to be in our mouths for two decades, which will no doubt provide plenty of gold spikes and opportunities for EW et al to say I told you so.
However as you noted the gold price simply bobs about on top of these other fundamentals.
What fun we are going to have.
September 5th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Scepticus
You call high unemployment and people on the streets “fun”.
Gold is rising not for fun or speculation but because the world is going to hell and it is ringing an alarm bell, use it to insure yourself, not speculate and have “fun”
Buy google if you want to have fun and speculate
GOLD IS MONEY AND INSURANCE.
September 5th, 2009 at 9:46 am
EW I have some gold thank you very much, and am comfortable with the amount of my assets I have allocated to it, which happens to be a reasonable proportion.
With that done, and so much unknowable (and not discernable in charts because charts don’t do politics) I like to speculate on what’s in store 5, 10, 20, 30 years down the line. I have kids, loved ones and a career to look after and all these mean more to me in the short medium and long term than the price of gold. If gold goes to $10,000 per ounce we shall all probably be dead, with or without gold, so I’ll continue to speculate on alternative, and IMO more likely outcomes.
September 5th, 2009 at 10:19 am
What other investment is there out there that can trump gold as an investment class?
I know of no other that can even come close.
If your “career” is your insurance than you need no other, it will be enough to get you through the greastest depression that your children will ever live through, how do you insure for that?
September 5th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Gold has a few things going for it right now. Central banks spent decades pushing down the price of gold as the sold off their hoards. Compare this to other tangible assets such as land where central governments have done their best to pump up the price of land and houses. Any asset is good protection against inflation, and at least in the USA, inflation is coming for sure. No way can the Federal Reserve print trillions after trillions in US dollars backed by nothing without initiating a wave of inflation down the track.
The Great Depression saw a similar effect with steep deleveraging followed by grinding inflation. Our Keynesian governments have shovelled deficit into the hole caused by deleveraging but they have no way of unshovelling when it filps over to an inflationary stage. Australia is not as bad, China is buying our commodities and foreign investors still love us.
Australian mortgages have become the new stealth tax. Government spends the money on “stimulus” and runs up a deficit. This in turn generates inflation so Government allows the banks to up interest rates “because we have to control inflation”. Banks take the difference out of the mortgage holders, then the government takes the tax out of the banks. Ta da! Wealth distribution. Take from the middle class, push some of it down to the poor, some of it up to the wealthy.
Getting back to gold, aside from the inflation protection it offers, the potential for upside comes down to how we move forward reconfiguring international trade. It seems obvious that US dollars cannot remain the core of international trade forever. The Federal Reserve printing press is beating that message into the whole world and the coming wave of US inflation will beat the message even harder.
China is experimenting with various options right now. They are making deals with Russia for bi-lateral exchanges… not sure how successful that might be. They have purchased some IMF SDR paper (presumably purchased with US dollars), but it remains to be seen what this IMF paper can do.
My feeling is that we will end up with some commodity basket as the reference for international trading, and both gold and silver will be in that basket. No doubt a lot of closed door negotiations are under way, no doubt the doors will stay closed until the very last minute to ensure none of the small-time punters get the advantages that the insiders get.
September 5th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Hi Elliotwave,
I don’t know where you get the 1 nil from. But go for it all you like. Call it 100 to nil. I have said repeatedly, I don’t care if gold goes up or down and it will go up and down all the time. If gold fell $40 or $50 in a few weeks will you say that you were wrong? Of course not!
I can’t go past your comment “What other investment is there out there that can trump gold as an investment class?”. That is simply a crazy comment.
Almost all commodities greatly outgrew gold in the last 10 years and all blew gold off the planet in the last 30 years. Uranium rose some massive figure (I forget, can’t bother looking it up) say 1,400% in the last 10 years, before crashing 60 or more % last year. From 1980 to today gold has risen in $US by $45. That’s a .34% per annum return. Go gold. That’s a terrible return.
Even AIG and Citi have risen 300% or 600% in the last 5 months. You are obsessed with gold and you can’t see it.
Gold might rise or fall. From an elliot wave POV there is a strong bullish case and a strong bearish case (the outlook is uncertain). I said that on this site 4 or 6 months ago.
Take a look at sugar instead. Sugar just blew off to a multi decade high top of $24.85 (front month). It has now fallen impulsively to $20.50 (intra-day low today) in a few days. Looking at the graph I would have much more confidence shorting sugar that could fall under $10 than going long gold that is a few dollars from its all time high. Not to mention that I have made 10 times more shorting sugar in the last week than I would have going long in gold. Gold rose 5% or 6%. Sugar just fell over 20% in less than 5 days.
Also have a look at Natural gas. It is forming an ending diagonal (terminating pattern) into its low of the last 10 years and a very long term low point, if you exclude the 2001 bottom. Nat gas makes much more sense if you want to go long as it is bottoming. Why buy at the top. Sell high (against the herd) and buy when no one else wants it (against the herd). I have no position in nat gas yet. The pattern is not complete. I think some time in the next 6 months nat gas will bottom and turn out to be the best investment of the next 2 or 3 years.
What ever I have discussed here is just my opinion. Not investment advice.
September 5th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Not if but when hyperinflation (a currency event not an economic event), occurs their is nothing that will compare to gold.You perhaps do not understand how bad the world will look like within a years time?
The amount of pain financially and emotionally that the world will commence to feel by May of 2010, will be something that one does not wish upon their worst enemy.
I feel sorry for families with young children they will be scarred for years.
I do not want gold to rise but it is out of my hands and is the only way to insure ones self.
This will be the worst experience that we as a human race will ever face and it all starts in May 2010.
September 5th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Hi Elliotwave,
Please explain to me how there can be a currency induced hyper-inflation everywhere? Currencies are relative. If one currency were to crash, it is in relation to others.
How can speculators crash all the world’s currencies simultaneously. Or are you just suggesting a hyper-inflation in the US. ($US value of gold would rise, but $A value may stagnate or fall) or a hyper-inflation in Australia where the $US value of gold may rise or fall, but the $A value of gold would skyrocket?
I think I have asked this question of you 4 times now. You don’t have to answer me. Please ask the question of yourself.
September 5th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Ask the the people of Iceland that question i am sure they will be able to answer that question for you.They seem to be more experienced in the art of financial chit hitting the fan.
September 5th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Please explain how Iceland is relevant? I am one of the dummies that posts on this site.
Iceland has had a currency event, agreed. But that has not triggered global hyper-inflation.
September 5th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
BTB
I have put out what i know will happen, but i still have no idea what the hell you think is happening or what will happen?
I gave you the bottom in gold and you mocked me, then when it bottomed in July and is on a tear now you still mock me.
Who on this website has made a ballsy call like the one i made on gold and the other call of 1224 by November 5, who has actually said anything constructive of this website that HAS ACTUALLY HAPPENED, NOT WILL HAPPEN IN 5 YEARS?
You actually have the hide to mock me.
You think by trading natural gas futures or stocks will get you out of trouble?You are truly delusional and have no idea whatsoever is about to transpire in the world.
WAKE UP BTB
September 5th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Thanks for that Elliotwave.
You are the guru!
September 5th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Very intelligent response, keep shorting equities and trading nat gas futures that will keep you safe.
Your view on financial markets does not exist? Bit difficult?
September 7th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Although Australia is regarded as a debtor nation so indebted it should be suffering from its own currency crisis, the AUD has gained impressive ground in the past 6 months.
AUD/USD has gone up to 0.85 from the February low of 0.65. That means the Australians are buying more from the US with the same amount of AUD. I wonder this currency crisis will someday permeate thru to other debtor nations like Australia.
Dr Keen believes that the impact by private debts contractions could hamper the authorities remedies. I think Dr Keen’s model has not taken into account the proportion of risk-free private debts. E.g., some of the housing loans borrowed by overseas students are guaranteed by their wealthy parents who would bring in millions in cash once their son or daughter gained a foothold in Australia.
What role is this inflow of private cash funds playing in the larger economy?
September 8th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
[...] Source [...]
September 12th, 2009 at 2:53 am
[...] bubble was (is) big, and relative to rents, home values recently turned upward. According to Steve Keen (thank you reader VtCodger for the link), government subsidies provided households the incentive to [...]
September 20th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
I actually agree with the basic theory of: debtjunkies
September 1st, 2009 at 3:34 pm
“Here is another article that confirms the increasing debt burden of excessively priced housing.
http://business.smh.com.au/business/debt-burden-spoils-retirement-party-20090831-f5df.html………………………………...
I have long maintained that while interest rates are relatively low, that housing prices would rise, especially if so-called experts starting talking about the financial crisis being over. These grabs to ‘ordinary man or woman on the street’ who are in the market for an owner-occupied property has triggered an unprecedented splurge on property in recent weeks.
I take a great interest in the inner to mid northern suburbs of Melbourne, and if you think prices were outrageous last year, then prepare for what is to come. There was a window for the first couple of months of this year- where prices had actually started to genuinely come back, there was lots of talk in the media about concerns of the greater economy- Steve’s points were even starting to stick! Unfortunately interest rates held firm low then, and so we now have this extraordinary situation where people are paying even more than 2007/2008- and therefore taking on even more debt.
My research on property in Melbourne North’s at it’s most updated- ie: yesterday!: an unrenovated cream BV on a small block two doors down from fibro commission flats sold for $609,000- undoubtedly it would’ve made no more than $420k last year at the property market’s peak. Another unrenovated ‘beauty’ red brick in North Coburg- not Coburg, not Thornbury, not NOrthcote- but North Coburg, almost at the cemetery sold for $561k, undoubtedly would’ve struggled to reach $400k at the peak last year.
One contemplates what sort of loan approval analysis are banks going through- the charade they play over approvals including what valuation they place on the property are farcical. The amount of debt if current activity continues into summer, is going to be monstrous. If government policy continues in the same vein as I have alluded to from debtjunkies post above, there’s going to be a lot of hands grabbing for the government handout pot, especially when interest rates go up, or can Wayne Swan wangle his mates at the RBA to leave them alone til next year- if he does Armageddon may arrive sooner than the ordinary man expects, even worse the ordinary man probably isn’t even aware of it’s coming- he too busy servicing his debt under the illusion he’s paying off the principle.