“The Marxian view is that capitalistic economies are inherently unstable and that excessive accumulation of capital will lead to increasingly severe economic crises. Growth theory, which has proved to be empirically successful, says this is not true.
The capitalistic economy is stable, and absent some change in technology or the rules of the economic game, the economy converges to a constant growth path with the standard of living doubling every 40 years.
In the 1930s, there was an important change in the rules of the economic game. This change lowered the steady-state market hours. The Keynesians had it all wrong.
In the Great Depression, employment was not low because investment was low. Employment and investment were low because labor market institutions and industrial policies changed in a way that lowered normal employment.”
Obviously, I did not write the above. The author was instead Edward C. Prescott, who shared the 2004 Nobel Prize in Economics for the development of real business cycle theory, in his 1999 paper “Some Observations on the Great Depression” (Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis Quarterly Review, Winter 1999, vol. 23, no. 1, pp. 25– 31).
This statement is remarkable for a number of reasons I’ll discuss below. But though it is extreme, it does express a belief that is endemic in neoclassical economics, that a market economy is inherently stable and will always return to a stable growth path after a shock.
That common belief lies behind the expectations of economists that, now that the GFC has played itself out, the economy will return to trend growth and the emergency measures that attenuated its impact can be withdrawn.
From this perspective, the GFC was a “pothole in the road” caused by the Subprime crisis, a “change in the rules of the economic game” which is now behind us. With the damage caused by the crisis largely contained, normal economic growth can resume. Over time, the unemployment rate will return to pre-crisis levels as the economic car resumes its steady speed along the highway of history.
The alternative perspective is that the GFC was more akin to an abrupt change in the terrain. The “economic car” had been coasting downhill with the gravity of ever-increasing private debt adding to the speed of the car. With the GFC we reached the bottom of the hill, and the car now has to drive uphill as it attempts to maintain its previous debt-enhanced speed while also reducing debt.
Visually at least, the “change in terrain” analogy stands up better than the pothole. I normally show the debt to GDP ratio as a rising function, but the economy’s speed gets a boost as the increase in debt makes a positive contribution to aggregate demand, and is slowed down when deleveraging reduces demand. So turning the ratio upside down may give a better idea of the depth of the “Valley of Debt” into which we have fallen:

When Australia began its most recent descent into debt in mid-1964, the average annual increase of 4.2% in the ratio added only a trivial amount to aggregate demand—since at the time debt was a mere 25% of GDP. But at the end of the debt bubble in 2008, when debt had become 165% of GDP, that same rate of debt growth added a huge amount to demand—the economic “car” gained speed as the slope of the debt mountain increased.
We hit the bottom of that mountain in March 2008, and now we’re starting to climb out of the valley—though not yet in absolute terms, since thanks to the First Home Vendors Boost, mortgage debt is still growing as business busily delevers (see comments on the data, below). But once deleveraging takes hold, the acceleration caused by racing down Debt Mountain will be replaced by an economic car straining up the Mount Debt Reduction. This change in the terrain will constrain private economic performance until debt has fallen significantly, as it did after the 1890s and the 1930s.
A similar, if more extreme, picture applies in the USA, where private debt is now 300% of GDP. In contrast to Australia, the USA’s debt ratio began to rise as soon as WWII ended: on average, US private debt rose 2.9% faster than GDP every year until 2008, taking the debt ratio from 45% at the end of the War to 300% now. Deleveraging from this level of debt must exert a substantial break on economic performance, by diverting income from expenditure to debt reduction.
I am therefore one of a minority of economic commentators who regard “deflation and deleveraging” as the main dangers facing the global economy in the near future (curiously, this minority might include Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd). From my perspective, the Global Financial Crisis marks “a change in the terrain”: for decades, rising debt has turbocharged economic performance; now falling debt will be a drag on economic activity.
The vast majority of economists who perceive the GFC as a pothole on the road that is now behind us do not consider debt and deleveraging in their analysis. Their models have neither credit nor money nor private debt in them, so from their point of view, there is no terrain at all beneath the car—merely a long flat highway of history along which the economic car drives at the speed it is underlying “real” economic performance.
This failure to even consider the role of private credit in a capitalist economy is an endemic weakness in conventional “neoclassical” economics, which ignores the dynamics of credit for a variety of reasons that are both ideological and illogical.
The ideology is apparent in Prescott’s comments on the Great Depression, quoted above. The lack of logic is evident when you compare a key statement in that paper—that “Growth theory, which has proved to be empirically successful, says this is not true”—with the results of some very careful empirical research by the very same author just ten years earlier. There he (and co-author and Nobel Prize recipient Finn Kydland) concluded that the empirical data contradicted neoclassical growth theory:
“The purpose of this article is to present the business cycle facts in light of established neoclassical growth theory, which we use as the organizing framework for our presentation of business cycle facts. We emphasize that the statistics reported here are not measures of anything; rather, they are statistics that display interesting patterns, given the established neoclassical growth theory.
In discussions of business cycle models, a natural question is, Do the corresponding statistics for the model economy display these patterns? We find these features interesting because the patterns they seem to display are inconsistent with the theory.” (Finn E. Kydland & Edward C. Prescott, “Business Cycles: Real Facts and a Monetary Myth”, Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis Quarterly Review, vol. 14, no. 2, pp 3-18, p. 4).
One key pattern in actual economic data that went against the predictions of neoclassical economic theory was the relationship between broad measures of the money supply and government-created “Base Money”. The standard “money multiplier” view is that:
- The government creates “Base Money” via deficit spending, and credits that money to private individuals via social security, goods purchases etc.;
- These private individuals then deposit that money in bank accounts;
- The banks then retain a proportion of these deposits and lend out the rest, creating credit money (and debt).
If this view were empirically correct, then an analysis of money over time would show that “Base Money” was created first and “Credit Money” was created later, with a time lag.
In fact, what Kydland and Prescott found was that the empirical data was the opposite of this: credit money was created first, and Base Money was created later, with a lag of up to a year:
“There is no evidence that either the monetary base or M1 leads the cycle, although some economists still believe this monetary myth. Both the monetary base and M 1 series are generally procyclical and, if anything, the monetary base lags the cycle slightly.
The difference in the behavior of M1 and M2 suggests that the difference of these aggregates (M2 minus M1) should be considered. … The difference of M2-M1 leads the cycle by even more than M2, with the lead being about three quarters.
The fact that the transaction component of real cash balances (M 1) moves contemporaneously with the cycle while the much larger nontransaction component (M2) leads the cycle suggests that credit arrangements could play a significant role in future business cycle theory. Introducing money and credit into growth theory in a way that accounts for the cyclical behavior of monetary as well as real aggregates is an important open problem in economics.”
I couldn’t agree more, but this is not what neoclassical economists did. Instead they continued to develop models in which money and debt played no role.
Despite his excellent empirical work on monetary dynamics in “Real Facts and a Monetary Myth”, Prescott’s “Great Depression” paper made no reference to credit at all as an explanatory factor in the Great Depression. Instead—I’m not joking—he blamed the Depression on a “change in labor market institutions and industrial policies that lowered steady-state, or normal, market hours”.
Except for this bizarre argument that the Great Depression was the result of the voluntary response of workers to unspecified changes in labour market conditions that made labour less desirable, this lengthy quote from Prescott is representative of standard neoclassical thinking about crises like the GFC:
“Essentially, business cycles are responses to persistent changes, or shocks, that shift the constant growth path of the economy up or down. This constant growth path is the path to which the economy would converge if there were no subsequent shocks. If a shock shifts the constant growth path down, the economy responds as follows. Market hours fall, reducing output; a bigger share of output is allocated to consumption and a smaller share to investment; and more time is allocated to leisure. Over time, market hours return to normal, as do investment and consumption shares of output, as the economy converges to its new lower constant growth path. The level of the new path is lower, not the growth rate along the path.
I’ve just described the response of the economy to a single shock. In fact, the economy is continually hit by shocks, and what economists observe in business cycles is the effects of past and current shocks. A bust occurs if a number of negative shocks are bunched in time. A boom occurs if a number of positive shocks are bunched in time. Business cycles are, in the language of Slutzky (1937), the “sum of random causes.”
The fundamental difference between the Great Depression and business cycles is that market hours did not return to normal during the Great Depression. Rather, market hours fell and stayed low. In the 1930s, labor market institutions and industrial policy actions changed normal market hours. I think these institutions and actions are what caused the Great Depression.”
So the Great Depression was a conscious choice by American workers to enjoy more leisure, in response to unspecified changes in the labour market ([Later in the same essay, he states: “Exactly what changes in market institutions and industrial policies gave rise to the large decline in normal market hours is not clear....”).
It would be bad enough if Prescott were merely an obscure academic economist, but he is far from obscure: he and Kydland shared the Nobel Prize in Economics for the development of neoclassical growth theory. As ridiculous as his argument is, it does accurately state the conclusions of the neoclassical “real business cycle” model. As is often the case, you find a much clearer—and therefore far more obviously absurd—statement of neoclassical economic theory when you go to the source, rather than relying on a second-hand account from a textbook or run-of-the-mill practitioner.
So the confidence that the vast majority of economists have that the GFC is now behind us, and the “normal” trend rate of growth will resume, is fundamentally based on the belief that credit and debt dynamics do not matter.
I beg to differ. Though the enormous government stimulus has attenuated the immediate impact of debt deleveraging, it has done nothing to reduce the outstanding level of private debt. Instead even sub-par growth has become dependent on continuing government stimuli, and whenever those stimuli are removed, the economy will falter.
Total private debt rose by a mere A$1 billion last month, versus as much as A$30 billion during the height of the debt bubble. But were it not for the First Home Vendors Boost (let's call it what it is), Australia would now be firmly in the grips of deleveraging.
END OF COMMENTARY
COMMENTS ON THE DATA—A Mortgage & Government Led Recovery?

Total private debt rose by a mere A$1 billion last month, versus as much as A$30 billion during the height of the debt bubble. But were it not for the First Home Vendors Boost (let's call it what it is), Australia would now be firmly in the grips of deleveraging.
Nonetheless the debt to GDP ratio fell yet again, because the rate of growth of debt is now substantially below the rate of growth of GDP—even though that is now also anaemic.

The breakdown of debt shows that the business sector is rapidly deleveraging, while mortgage and government debt is escalating—and both those are the result of government policy.
Without the First Home Vendors Boost, it is highly unlikely that mortgage debt would still be rising today. Mortgage debt peaked as a percentage of GDP in March 2008, and fell for the remainder of the year until the First Home Vendors Boost.
The quarterly change in mortgage debt was also trending down from the 2005 peak, and that downward trend has clearly been reversed by the impact of the Boost.


House Prices

The Boost has certainly had the impact the government desired, of arresting the fall in Australian house prices.

It will also almost certainly guarantee that I'll be walking (and running) to Kosciuszko under the first half of the bet with Rory Robertson.[1] The second half of the bet, that the fall from peak to trough will be of the order of 40%, may still see Rory also walking some years hence—and the withdrawal of the Boost may make this occur sooner rather than later.
The reason is twofold. Firstly, the Boost has obviously brought forward some buying by First Home Buyers that would have occurred anyway, as well as enticing in others who might not have considered it otherwise. The withdrawal of that demand will have a strong impact on the sub-$500,000 price range.
But the withdrawal will also affect houses in the $1 million to $1.5 million range as well, because the Boost did far more than merely boost sub-$500,000 prices.
First Home Buyers who were enticed into the market by the additional $7,000 geared that up with additional debt by at least a factor of 4, to result in something like a $35,000 price jump for sub-$500K houses. But the sellers of those houses—the real beneficiaries of the Boost—then received an extra $35,000 in cold hard cash. They then used this as a boost to their own deposits on their purchases of houses further up the chain—and if they also geared by a factor of 4 (ie a 80% marginal level of gearing, which is well within current lending practice), then the prices they paid for houses in the $750K-1.5M range would have risen by $140,000.
This works in reverse as well. When the Boost is withdrawn, not only will sellers of sub-$500K houses find that buyers have $35K less to spend than during the boost, the sellers of $750K-1.5M abodes will find their buyers short about $150K compared to during the boost.
2010 could be an interesting year for Australian house prices.
[1] If the index breaks its current maximum level of 131 in the next release of ABS 6416, I will walk (and run) from Parliament House to Mt Kosciusko as required by the bet in the last weeks of February 2010.






August 30th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
“2010 could be an interesting year for Australian house prices.”
Steve 2010 is too early. Considering Dec31 is the final deadline and builders have a backlog of 6 to 8 months it will take time for things to hit. Have you considered the government pulling out a few more Aces like reducing stamp duty beyond 50% like say 0%. Furthermore do you reckon the current government debt is too little or puny? and they bring in the big bazookas and decide to go deeper into debt to support their beloved POZI scheme? I reckon they will throw everything at it and we are far from it. Once we have past the tipping point when they cant take on any more debt and prepared to let go of their beloved then we can expect what you have said to happen. That is not next year or the immediate future I reckon atleast 2 to 3 years away. Why do you think the government wont continue a further much larger stimulus?
August 30th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Would like to add to my previous post. What about Landcom? The controllers of land release and new land prices. Do you reckon they are fools to release land when property prices are falling? So far they have controlled demand supply by simply releasing a tiny portion of land vs the demand and sold it at prime prices. The government can afford to NOT sell land anymore until things recover. They own the land and are in no hurry to wait. Considering Land prices is the major chunk of home prices I simply do not see this happening. The prices of existing homes may fall but it will take something really really big and drastic for Landcom to start releasing land 20 to 40% less than current prices. Any comments on Landcom side of things guys?
August 30th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
I suspect that Joshua may be right as next year is a Federal election year.
BTW and as an aside, I notice the local catholic school down the road from my place has been given a $2M handout from the infrastructure fund.
They’re going to use the money to build an open air music stage. I’m sure that this construction will help revive the economy! ;0)
Also I have read a comment somewhere that the Federal Government handouts are primarily designed to benefit the churches (esp. the church schools), construction companies and the unions in exchange for their support prior to the forthcoming election.
If this is true, the pork barrelling has already begun in earnest.
August 31st, 2009 at 12:32 am
How does this reduction in business borrowing sit with the reported increase in business investment (http://business.theage.com.au/business/strong-investment-data-stokes-rate-rise-fears-20090827-f0h7.html)?
August 31st, 2009 at 6:58 am
Off topic a little, but also good:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2009/08/what_future_for_media_and_jour.html
August 31st, 2009 at 8:03 am
Fair points Joshua. I do expect the government to do more to hold the scheme aloft–which is why I didn’t make a call for falling prices next year but instead “interesting times”. I don’t think they’ve thought through the consequences of the Boost ending for the market segment above $500K. But I think they and the property spruikers are going to find the act of holding house prices aloft to be much more difficult next year than ever before–especially if the RBA also decides to independently renew its obsession with inflation, and also assert its independence by raising rates a couple of times.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:05 am
Good question! It’s possible however to fund investment out of equity raisings and retained earnings as well as debt. There can be a deliberate shift in the business sector to get out of debt and move to equity-based financing–and we’ve seen substantial equity raisings in this bear rally while the economy has held up.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:16 am
Steve,
regarding your last point about the $7k home buyer credit … why would you assume that this would produce a ~$35k increase in home prices (and thus, an even larger effect when the seller takes their profit and buys a more expensive house)?
I assume you’re referring to a normal ratio of a 20% down payment. but, is it correct to assume that this ratio would stay constant with the home buyer incentive? I admit, I’m not an Australian, but in the US, the way mortgage lending used to work (before lenders lost their minds) is that a loan often depended on a down-payment ratio (e.g. 20%), but also depended on the ratio of the monthly payments to the buyer’s monthly income (I think that ratio was 31% or 38% or something similar).
if government bonuses allow buyers $7k extra for their down-payment, how does this affect the ratio of the monthly payment (which scales with the amount borrowed = home price – down_payment)? it’s not clear to me that having more money for a down-payment would entice borrowers to borrow any more, in which case the $7k credit would inflate house prices by close to $7k, not $35k. but, as I said, I don’t know how lending standards might be different in the US vs Oz.
also, this assumes that all the bonus ($7k) goes into an increased price for the seller. wouldn’t that depend on the elasticity of demand for these houses? if the demand isn’t perfectly inelastic, shouldn’t some of that be reflected in true savings for the buyers?
August 31st, 2009 at 8:59 am
n8r0n,
I agree that the “money multiplier” explanation is probably a bit incorrect. The injection of FHOG money simply restarted buying frenzy on a very shallow market – the population of Australia is 60% of California, highly concentrated in a few big cities.
I probably managed to convince somebody with a single income not to borrow about $400k to buy a house infested with termites – despite repeated visits of a co-worker, a seasoned gambler, who probably was receiving an instant gratification in the form of adrenaline rush when he was “encouraging” the investment. In fact the insects did the most of the job. Banks are still willing to lend a lot. The ratio of monthly payments to income is rather irrelevant when most of the loans are variable-rate (currently starting from 5.1%) – today it is 31% tomorrow may be 62%. Loans are recourse so you are a slave of the bank if you go bankrupt (however the most of people whom I know have passports of several countries ready should their experiment with Australia fail).
Applying free market explanations to real estate in Australia is as correct as applying free market explanations to the market of indulgences in Rome in 15th century (before Martin Luther) – what was the elasticity of the demand then?
It is all about virtual property.
August 31st, 2009 at 9:07 am
Steve, thanks for the response. It’ll be interesting to see how your model responds to the addition of interest rates and cash. I suspect that in a true blue pure credit economy, any risk free asset such as cash or government bonds creates an arbitrage that will eventually result in or exacerbate instability of the credit system. Risk free assets don’t belong in a true credit economy.
I’m also guessing the math is going to show that trying to combine a credit economy and a cash economy is a bit like trying to combine quantum mehcanics and relativity.
Regarding gisellian systems, I presume you refer to the difficulty of applying demurrage to cash and other risk free assets like gold?It could well be that intime we find implementing demurrage will turn out to be no more difficult than it was to abandon the gold standard, unthinkable just a decade before it happened. It may even prove unnecessary in a n economy significantly dominated by credit money.
Recent history shows that the modern money system is an accounting one of liability and asset which when functioning properly is driven by normal economic processes and anything that has gotten in the way – like gold and bank reserve ratios, has steadily lost relevance. Many think this means we need to return to older, simpler times. I however would characterise that as the fallacy of reversibility, and observe that the world don’t work that way, and cannot work that way.
Going back to the chartalists, I suspect they are right in theory that government spending can sustain the economy indefinitely in theory. The reason that credit doesn’t enter into their theory is because theirs is a theory of fiat, in which credit expansion is optional, allowed or not by government fiat. They can justofy this by saying the credit money is not real money, because it can’t be used to pay taxes.
However the real world includes both credit and government fiat, and I hope that the intersection between their theories and yours yields up the reality of the modern economy (which hopefully will not turn out to be a mathematical discontinuity -aka a black hole).
August 31st, 2009 at 9:15 am
The normal down payment was approaching 5% before this crisis hit n8r0n–ie loans were approaching 95% of the valuation of the property being purchased, and they didn’t go into retreat for all that long:
http://www.mortgagechoice.com.au/special-home-loan-offers.aspx
So in arguing that a $7K boost to the deposit would result in a $35K increase in the price paid, I was being conservative. There was plenty of anecdotal feedback to me that lenders were giving out more than that much on the basis of the Boost, and the ABS data showed that the average loan to a FHB rose substantially and even exceeded the average for all other buyers during the boost.
And as ak has noted, the old links between income and debt servicing levels have long been broken over here. That’s accelerated now by a trend to offer guarantor loans at 105-120% of the property’s valuation.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:10 am
Re: The second part of your bet.
I’m a 57 year-old , middle-class American thinking about spending my remaining days elsewhere. I’m sick of winner-take-all economic models , and , though I had high hopes for Obama during the campaign , now I can see that “Change” referred to what workers might expect to be paid in the future.
Rudd’s writings make me look to Australia as one of the better bets , among the Anglo-Saxon countries , to implement some form of “New Deal 2.0″ political economy. If I , and other like-minded people , see this happening and decide to move our wealth and talents to Australia , it might provide enough demand for housing to cause you to lose your bet.
Additionally , if bold , rapid adoption of such policies correct structural imbalances in the economy , it might result in a more benign deleveraging in which house values don’t take such a big hit.
Just a thought ( half in jest ).
Great site , BTW.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:32 am
Here in Victoria First Home buyers are eligible for grants up to $35,500. That then should result in an increase of $177,500 in the price paid. That certainly would explain some of the ridiculous prices being paid around here.
August 31st, 2009 at 11:49 am
Hello Steve,
Thank you for you interesting posts,
I have little economic knowledge but I am intrigued by your proposed solution: a debt jubilee. How would that work? Just halving all mortgages and personal debt and let the banks eat the costs? I wouldn’t mind for the banks, but I would find it unfair for all people that didn’t go into debt using it for consumption.
How about printing money and giving every adult US$100.000? If people would use it to pay off debts, it would not create inflation, correct?
August 31st, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Who has vested interest in high house prices? All of us who have houses. That is 60% of the population of Australia. That’s why we are actually happy that there are shortages in some areas and hate public housing – including people who may live there.
“the plan to develop public housing next door defied comprehension”
“House prices will tumble”
“it will become a dumping ground for families that cannot be housed anywhere else, or for former drug addicts from the nearby Aboriginal rehab centre”
Yes it cannot get any worse. These people for sure should not be allowed anywhere close to our properties.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/not-sold-residents-fear-effect-on-property-prices-20090830-f3zx.html
Also: what about the real number of migrants who arrived last year and have to live somewhere? Does this affect the number of vacant properites?
“Australia’s official migration program recorded an intake of 171,318 permanent migrants in 2008-09″
“according to figures obtained by Fairfax, a further 657,124 temporary migrants with the right to work arrived in Australia during the past year. The 11 per cent surge in temporary migrants was fuelled by big increases in foreign students (up 15 per cent to 320,368) and working holiday visas (up 22 per cent to 154,148). This compensated for a 9 per cent drop in 457 visas – an employer-sponsored visa for temporary skilled labour introduced in 1995 – to 101,280″
http://www.smh.com.au/national/migration-rules-set-for-revamp-20090831-f47j.html
August 31st, 2009 at 12:19 pm
An interesting article regarding the Government stimulus measures and Treasury advice.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/31/2671454.htm
August 31st, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Hey BTB or others in the financial background.
Any ideas how much commission the bank lending managers get for signing you on to a loan? I am sick of the constant harassment by my Bank SG with regards to trying to shove a loan on me. So far they have offered to waive the Bank fees from 1200$ to 600$ and also cover the cost of the conveyancer recommended by them. I can only conclude there must be fair amount of commissions/kickbacks? After all on a 25 year loan the bank will probably make around 470K only in interest forget the principal. Probably would have to survive on 1/4 of salary taking interest rates at 8% of course. Leaves no room for savings unless there is a secondary income earner
August 31st, 2009 at 12:50 pm
“If the index breaks its current maximum level of 131 in the next release of ABS 6416, I will walk (and run) from Parliament House to Mt Kosciusko as required by the bet in the last weeks of February 2010.”
Tut tut, kind of forgot didn’t we Steve: “The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent”?
Especially when it is being given HUGE pushes up the posterior by desperate Western governments.
Oh! And as Joshua says, when governments at all levels in Australia are in an unholy alliance to keep houses as several times their real value, thus turning first home buyers into long-term debt slaves harnessed to the fortunes of the high growth, neoclassical economy (best method of social control ever, Stalin grit your teeth in envy). As for the massive transfer of wealth from younger, poorer Australians to older, richer ones, well… as a beneficiary I’d better not comment.
Stephen Heyer
August 31st, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Hi Joshua,
I am not aware of many bank employed home loan managers earning commission on writing loans. Brokers on the other hand all work for commission.
In terms of the employee, they would generally have targets for loans, insurance, credit cards, internal referrals and deposit accounts. Should they meet/exceed their targets and are liked by their manager, they could expect to receive up to 30% of their salary as a bonus. This all depend on who they work for. Some pay better than others.
Home loan lenders are quite often under a lot of pressure to meet very high targets. Unfortunately this can distort the manager’s view of whether the loan is good for the customer or not.
August 31st, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Hi Sjheyer,
Are you using hindsight to sarcastically suggest Steve was foolish to make a prediction? Does that make you feel good about yourself? What are your predictions?
Using hindsight is a mugs game. All one is doing with hindsight is following the herd. Make a prediction and stand by it. Then put your money where your mouth is. That takes guts.
Steve has my utmost respect for not calling Rory out. After all, Rory was predicting house price falls too, he just didn’t believe the falls would be as severe as Steve was suggesting.
August 31st, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Lot’s of HOPE here;
Housing recovery hopes dashed
CHRIS ZAPPONE
August 31, 2009 – 11:39AM
Hopes for a recovery in the housing sector have been dashed by fresh data showing new home sales were flat in July.
The volume of new home sales increased 0.1 per cent in July, following a 0.5 per cent increase in June, the Housing Industry Association said today.
“Housing finance figures point to an emerging recovery in trade-up buyer and investor numbers, but looking beyond first time buyer related activity we’re not as yet at a point where we can talk of a broad based recovery in private new home demand,” HIA chief economist Harley Dale said in a statement.
States showed a wide variation in results with house sales dropping 4.4 per cent in Victoria, 11.6 per cent in South Australia and 3.1 per cent in Western Australia.
In NSW they increased 9.8 per cent and vaulted 10.2 per cent in Queensland.
“Throw into the mix approvals processes that are bogging down the recovery and a slow start to the Social Housing Initiative and we are looking at a moderate rather than strong lift in building starts through the second half of 2009,” he said.
The Federal Government had hoped that the First Home Buyers grant, along with record low interest rates, would jumpstart the housing industry and provide a catalyst for the economy in coming months. The First Home Buyers grant boost is set to reduce to $14,000 from $21,000 by the end of September.”
http://business.smh.com.au/business/housing-recovery-hopes-dashed-20090831-f4jj.html
…….and the “green shoots” propaganda machine won’t like this leak at the MoT…
Inventory drop to dent GDPAugust 31, 2009 – 12:01PM
“The bigger-than-expected fall in inventories means that firms were not confident enough to increase production over the quarter, preferring to meet household demand via running down stocks,” said 4Cast Ltd economist Michael Turner.
The June quarter result was 5.3 per cent lower than a year ago. Economists were expecting inventories to have declined by 1.1 per cent in the June quarter.
That 3.4 per cent quarterly fall may lop as much as a 0.9 percentage point subtraction to the gross domestic product, according to 4Cast.”
http://business.theage.com.au/business/inventory-drop-to-dent-gdp-20090831-f4jk.html
August 31st, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Market update. I am looking for signals in the hope of predicting a turn back to the previous bear market trend.
I believe silver’s trend turned down in June and fell into July before it began a retracement phase. My count has silver topping with wave 5 of C this morning. If correct, That would mean that wave 3 of 3 down in silver commenced this morning. This method of picking tops is highly speculative and is regularly wrong.
Silver is currently holding 2 cents above support at $14.70. A strong break below $14.70 will confirm my count for now. After that silver would have to break below $14.06 to eliminate some other alternatives. Silver is at a very important juncture because a break below $14.70 creates a tradeable top of $14.92 to set one’s stops.
Why silver, who cares?
I believe silver to be a good predictor for where the economy is heading in the future. This is because silver is a very high beta industrial metal. A solidly bearish trend in silver would imply a bullish trend in the $US which implies falling equities.
Should this scenario play out. I believe it is describing the deflation trade which will eventually confirm Steve Keen’s work and predictions.
If silver breaks support at $14.70 (now holding by 1.5 cents) and then moves under $14 (next strong support) in the next week or two. Look out bulls here comes deflation. IMO of course.
August 31st, 2009 at 2:19 pm
My guess us that sjheyer was just tickling my funny bone BTB! He’s dead right about the “irrational vs solvent” issue, and the impact of the government’s push from behind with the FHVB. But I was ambushed with the call for the bet itself–as I think mahaish noted here, had we had time to consider such a thing then I would definitely set the trigger differently for Rory and myself. A possible fair bet would have been if things were half as bad as I suggested, he would work, and half as good as he expected, I would walk; and an ancillary that the peak wouldn’t be more than 10% higher than the current nominal level, versus taking the then existing peak as the absolute–which I was not trying to call of course.
But them’s the breaks. I’ll stick with the bet as formulated, and if I have to walk, I’ll do so in late February, as I noted in Debtwatch. I’d just appreciate some company on the walk by as many Debtwatchers as are in Australia and can afford a day or two for an alpine stroll in late February 2010.
August 31st, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Steve,
What if you walk then your predictions comes true after a certain number of years and Rory refuses to walk citing comments like “Only one person wins a bet between two people” and since you walked prematurely too bad! He could very well say that you lost in the time frame and he will not walk. So do you have it in concrete that he will walk on the 2nd half?
I am prepared to make a hasty bet that rory wont walk if he really does turn out to be wrong eventually! I think you need to make lay these terms and conditions before you walk so the Media knows that you are still standing by your prediction.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:18 pm
joshua,
> I am prepared to make a hasty bet that rory wont walk
Do you realise that you are offering a “Walk Default Swap”? How about pricing some options with that?
– sorry about the offtopic – could not resist.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Scepticus writes,
“Going back to the chartalists, I suspect they are right in theory that government spending can sustain the economy indefinitely in theory. The reason that credit doesn’t enter into their theory is because theirs is a theory of fiat, in which credit expansion is optional, allowed or not by government fiat. They can justofy this by saying the credit money is not real money, because it can’t be used to pay taxes.”
Credit does enter their theory, for goodness sake. I cannot even believe I have to defend them on this point. As I said in the previous thread, they agree virtually entirely with Basil Moore and the endogenous money view. Wray wrote an entire book on endogenous money and was a Ph.D student of Minsky. To suggest otherwise is simply a misreading or just not a reading at all of their literature. They would never say something as silly as “credit money is not real money.” Credit money is not state money, but that’s hardly equivalent to suggesting it is not “real.” Credit money even clears a tax liability for those lower on the hierarchy of money than banks, even if it does not ultimately settle the tax liability. They have always said as much.
August 31st, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Vk,
A walk default swap. Brillant!
Please provide pricing information and terms!!
Of course, Moody(or someone else) will need to grade the swap. Probably would be AAA.
Jokes aside, I bet Rory wouldn’t walk even if he was proven wrong!
August 31st, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Hi Steve and BullturnedBear,
Steve is of course right: I was trying for sympathetically amusing.
As for your belief that one should “Make a prediction and stand by it. Then put your money where your mouth is. That takes guts.” Well, in my long life I have learned that the future generally either isn’t what we expected, or isn’t when we expected.
The trick is, I think, to try to glimpse the likely range of futures, make what preparations one can, but then don’t overly commit to any one particular model and above all stay flexible.
Just for the record, I made exactly the same predictions as Steve, but with Peak Oil, no, make that Peak Everything added to make things even more dire. Mind you, I was always aware that the timing could be out by years.
Oh! And there are always Black Swan Events (Note: Black Swan Events can be good events). For example, I am now aware of at least three developments, any one of which just could rather mitigate Peak Oil, and that would save a lot of pain and lives.
By the way, that walk sounds like it would be worth losing so you’d have an excuse to make it. If I possibly can I wouldn’t mind coming.
Stephen Heyer
August 31st, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Goldilocksisableachblond, there is Rudd’s writings and Rudd’s reality, which is that he will do what appeals to middle-class swinging voters which is to keep their property prices high, along with high wages, lots of free handouts and making sure most keep their jobs. It will be worse in the long run but it wins elections now.
August 31st, 2009 at 4:45 pm
“As of the end of June, more than one-third of all mortgaged homes in the United States were underwater, according to a report last month by the First American CoreLogic, a mortgage-industry consulting firm in Santa Ana, Calif. First American said the figure is almost certainly the highest it has been in decades.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/realestate/30mort.html?_r=1
“The Japanese economy has plunged into the double nightmare of runaway deflation and soaring joblessness, dealing probably a decisive, fatal blow to the ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) as it fights its most desperate battle for political survival in 50 years.”
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article6814280.ece
“I was kind of surprised and said Mr Bernanke do you have $82 billion? Mr. Bernanke replied I have $800 billion and under section 13.3 of the Federal Reserve Act they can lend anything they want.”
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/08/barney-frank-say-ron-pauls-audit-fed.html
He Told Them So ….. NOT! The Washington Post Interviews Chicken Little
“I would start typing “wrong, wrong, wrong,” but my computer does not have enough “wrong”s. The explosion of the deficit in the last year did not come from the sources of which David Walker had warned. It came from the collapse of an $8 trillion housing bubble, which David Walker (and the Washington Post) almost completely ignored. The collapse of the bubble threw the economy into the worst downturn since the depression. It also forced the government to spend hundreds of billions of dollars bailing out failed financial institutions. Walker never talked about this threat in his anti-deficit tirades.”
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/beat_the_press_archive?month=08&year=2009&base_name=he_told_them_so_not_the_washin
“It would be insanity for rate hikes at this point” said Steve Keen, associate professor of economics at the University of NSW.
“The recovery we have seen so far has been completely stimulus driven, with retail sales, car sales, house sales – everything boosted by government handouts and tax breaks.”
http://www.news.com.au/business/money/story/0,28323,26001086-5013951,00.html
August 31st, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Hi Steve,
Do you know of the Canadian writer John Ralston Saul? You both seem to be saying the same things in totally different ways and I think your arguments complement each other very well.
I just got the new edition of his book ‘The Collapse of Globalism’ and the new chapter is fantastic, I’d recomend it to anyone who likes this blog.
August 31st, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Nice compilation Philip, thanks.
August 31st, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Found another green shoot;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/6110621/Our-quarter-century-penance-is-just-starting.html
“The current financial crisis is unlike any others,” says the Bank for International Settlements. Lasting damage has been done. The “cumulative output loss” is likely to reach 20pc of GDP in the major economies. The message is the same at the International Monetary Fund. “The world is not in a run of the mill recession. The crisis has left deep scars. In advanced countries, the financial systems are partly dysfunctional,” said Olivier Blanchard, the Fund’s chief economist. Mr Blanchard said an IMF study of post-War banking crises led to an unpleasant finding. “Output does not go back to its old trend path, but remains permanently below it.”
August 31st, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Yes I know–Randy and I regularly find ourselves debating points at PK conferences of course, and I was pleased to find him in the audience at a talk I gave in Newcastle earlier this year.
The differences between us largely relate to the sustainability of a government-driven recovery from a crisis like this. I have no argument with the “governments alone can create net financial assets” assets of the Chartalist case, etc. What I focus on is the need for a theory of private credit creation independent of fiat money–since that’s clearly the empirical fact–and how the dynamics of government deficits relate to issues like debt deleveraging. There there be differences, I expect; but I’ll need to do a detailed study of their arguments to be sure.
August 31st, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Yes I have it in writing:
From: Rory Robertson [mailto:Rory.Robertson@macquarie.com]
Sent: Wed 3/06/2009 4:12 PM
To: Steve Keen; Christopher Joye
Subject: RE: That’s not a knife…
Steve…please check your calculations…40% drop from 131 peak is 78.6
on abs index…that’s when I would walk.
If that 131 level is regained in any period of time after a fall of less
than 20%…doesn’t touch as low as 104.8… then you have committed to
walk.
recall that down 20% to down 40% is no-man’s land…
writing “I’m willing to gamble that 131 was the peak” seems bizarre to
me…it’s a matter of fact that 131 was the peak…the obvious and only
peak that matters..we now are betting on the trough that follows…you
say 78.6 or lower, I say higher than 104.8…
talk about what might happen AFTER 131 regained short time or long time
is beside the point (perhaps “a trivial peak to peak with a minor
trough”)…
having said that…if abs or chris’s index ever falls 40% from its peak
level in 2008 – over any number of decades – I will walk…
rdgs,
rory
August 31st, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Steve Keen,
I read your charts as saying that the US is MUCH worse off than Australia. What makes you so sure that Australia will be hit substantially now. When Japan went through its own crisis – the rest of the world didn’t fall off the credit bandwagon.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:25 pm
The US is much worse, but we’re 60% worse than we were for the 1890′s. So there’s a home-grown component to consider–and at the end of the bubble debt was adding 20% to aggregate demand.
Don’t follow your point re Japan.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Steve,
I know you are sick of “the bet” questions but I am just interested in how the index is calculated.
Is the index fixed or is it adjucted for inflation.
Help me out with my reasoning as Im not the sharpest, but if prices remain stagnant and inflation is 5% then real prices should fall. Does the index reflect this 5% fall (ie index 131 down to 125).
August 31st, 2009 at 9:49 pm
It’s fixed debtjunkies–unadjusted for inflation.
There’s one reason I accepted the bet in those terms: I expect sustained deflation, which would make the fall in real terms less than the unadjusted fall, if I turn out to be right on the deflation call.
August 31st, 2009 at 11:16 pm
An interesting article about class warfare in China. At least the class warfare, in this case, is working in the correct direction for once.
Murder Bares Worker Anger Over China Industrial Reform
“As rumors swirled that Mr. Chen’s employer, Jianlong Group, planned to shed workers, a group of them found the 41-year-old executive and beat him severely, battering his skull. Workers blocked streets near the factory and hurled bricks, preventing police and paramedics from reaching Mr. Chen.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124899768509595465.html
Perhaps if the workers of Pacific Brands over here were a little more ‘proactive’ like these Chinese workers, maybe they could’ve kept their jobs.
Bernanke Warns of Less Financial Stability, If the Fed is Perceived as Losing Independence
“Somehow, this line passed without ridicule at the WSJ. Maybe Mr. Bernanke missed it, but his independent Fed gave us the largest financial and economic crisis since the Great Depression. Does anyone really think that things would have been worse if the Fed had been more accountable?”
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/beat_the_press_archive?month=08&year=2009&base_name=bernanke_warns_of_less_financi
September 1st, 2009 at 3:08 am
Steve,
I have a question about the number you use for U.S. private debt. The 300% of GDP figure includes financial sector debt. Some say this is really double counting, as this is essentially financing debt counted elsewhere. To that way of thinking, it would be like counting bank deposits, since both are liabilities to banks.
This financial debt grew much faster (from 100% to 300% of GDP) than other private debt (90% to 190%), which isn’t to say other private debt didn’t grow into a bubble.
Might it not be fair to say that this bank debt is the grease that allowed private debt to grow so much faster than deposits?
September 1st, 2009 at 3:14 am
Hi Steeve,
In the roving cavaliers of credit you explained that deflation was the most likely path because money is created by commercial banks when they grant loans and therefore can only be created if there is demand for credit. Also base money printed by the central bank has little effect to prevent deflation.
But isn’t it possible for the government to create inflation by directly monetizing its debt? The Fed has already started to monetize a small part of the US gov debt. Is there something that prevents it to go further?
September 1st, 2009 at 5:30 am
AK, completely agree with your comments on page 2 of the last thread – which I only just noticed. A good rant!
While I completely buy all steve’s work on the credit economy, what I don’t buy is that the rules will not be changed. Of course money will be printed to prevent deflation. Either that, or negative nominal rates will be required to prevent the collapse you spoke about.
I see five ways of doing so.
Firstly, credit created by a national government bank. An unlimited amount for any purpose can be created.
Secondly, credit created by an international bank in which various nations are shareholders. Imagine a bank capitalised by SDR which are then leveraged.
Thirdly, by printing of base money.
Forthly, by printing international base money like SDR.
Fifthly, by deficit expansion – the chartalist way.
Interestingly, both inflation negative real rates can be created by government credit expansion simply by offering government backed credit below the rate of inflation. Say this credit was extended for mortgages – then private banks if they want to compete, would have to lend at rates lower than the rate of inflation.
I suspect some of the 5 methods above can be shown to be equivalent in terms of monetary theory, however they may retain crucial differences of perception or legality.
In reality ‘capitalism’ ended some time ago, right about the time the financial systems and the day to day vital goods and services we all depend upon became so entwined with one another the whole edifice became too big to fail.
Therefore it will be bailed out by yet another rules re-write, with priorities being:
1. sustain basic services, inluding .gov.
2. sustain employment at manageable levels
3. sustain credit/accounting system, since it is the only system we have.
September 1st, 2009 at 7:16 am
Hi Steve,
Congratulations on your website and interesting commentary.
I would like to hold you to account on a few matters in this latest post.
1. Prescott does not say that the Great Depression occurred because Americans wanted more leisure. In fact, he says in the Abstract quite the opposite. He says (talking about Japan) : “This is in sharp contrast with the United States in the 1930s when the American people wanted to
work more.”
2. You claim to debunk neoclassical economics by showing some holes in growth theory. I will quote from Prescott himself who seems surprised that growth theory can have any application outside studying long-term growth:
“The developers of growth theory thought the theory would be useful for
studying long-term growth issues but that a fundamentally
different theory would be needed for studying business
cycle fluctuations”
3. You refer to Prescott’s earlier paper and show that it contradicts this newer paper. You seem to rely on the empirical findings of the earlier paper to debunk neoclassical economics.
The earlier paper (Business Cycles: Real Facts and a Monetary Myth) does show some unexplained aspects of the business cycle, but its findings dont actually assist your own theory… the authors find that price levels are counter-cyclical. Surely your own theory is that prices will drop while the real economy shrinks in a messy spiral of deflation. This paper predicts that if the economy shrinks, prices will go up.
If you are going to admire this paper for punching holes in neoclassical economics, you will also have to accept that it punches holes in your own theory.
The other major problem with this paper is that it focuses on the post-war period and ignores, for example, the Great Depression.
You have in the past criticised other papers for ignoring the Great Depression, and you might find that the correlation coefficients would be vastly different during this period. See, eg, Ravn and Sola 1995, Stylized facts and regime changes: Are prices procyclical?
4. You take the knife to CAPM. I assume you do this in order to show that markets are often mispriced and that Australian residential housing is an example of such a mispricing.
Showing that markets are not efficient would indeed invalidate CAPM. The trouble is, invalidating CAPM does not necessarily show that markets are not efficient. In fact, Fama and French (the guys who show empirical problems with CAPM that you refer to) are still zealous advocates of the idea that markets are highly efficient.
5. If you think ‘growth’ theory is wrong for saying that after a shock the growth level will return to trend, aren’t you being equally prescriptive for saying that after a (negative) shock, debt to GDP levels will return to the same universal long term level?
September 1st, 2009 at 11:24 am
Wasabi,
Firstly, (not to speak for Steve), but relating to your quote from Prescott on growth theory- that proves the precise point that post-Keynesians are trying to patiently teach us. Namely, to study long term growth trends (say a long period of “tranquillity” over 20-40 years) you need a system which will predict huge depressions, to make “depressions of the state of affairs of a capitalist economy” (Minsky). What Steve is doing is looking at long term developments (1840 to 1890 (depression); 1919 to 1930 (depression); 1970 to 2010 (depression?)). That is one of the lessons post-Keynesians are teaching us: you need to include things like assets, capital markets, speculation and debt money etc in the formulation of long term economic analysis in order to understand what DOES happen to growth in the long term (i.e. spastic periods of depression, where demand plummets as more people pay of debts then spend, and fall into default). We are not dealing with your run of the mill business cycles. But huge downturns- depressions (which DO happen in the long term, BUT are NOT predicted by standard growth theory). These are LONG TERM events (both in their build up over several decades of rapid growth i.e. “the euphoric economy” and the fact they take over a decade to recover from). None of this is included or even considered in growth theory, in their analysis of the “long term”. How can you understand growth without understanding the speculations, misallocation of resources, debts etc which undermine the economy over a long time span (over decades and decades)?
Secondly, maybe I misread Prescott when he wrote:
“…The fundamental difference between the Great Depression and business cycles is that market hours did not return to normal during the Great Depression. Rather, market hours fell and stayed low. In the 1930s, labor market institutions and industrial policy actions changed normal market hours. I think these institutions and actions are what caused the Great Depression…*So the Great Depression was a conscious choice by American workers to enjoy more leisure, in response to unspecified changes in the labour market*”
Sorry? What? Prescott does not say that the Great Depression occurred because Americans wanted more leisure. No, you are right, what he says is much worse: “the Great Depression was *a conscious choice* by American workers to enjoy more leisure, *in response to unspecified changes in the labour market*”
So, according to him, it was institutional policies which promoted leisure over work, despite people wanting work that caused the Great Depression:
“The Keynesians had it all wrong. In the Great Depression, employment was not low because investment was low. *Employment and investment were low because labor market institutions and industrial policies changed in a way that lowered normal employment [lowering the hours worked]*”.
Furthermore, let’s put your quote in a little more of a context:
“..The failure of the Japanese people to display concern with the performance of their economy suggests that this reduction is what the Japanese people wanted. This is in sharp contrast with the United States in the 1930s when the American people wanted to work more..”
His point is, in essence, although the US populace desired work, but they did not have- they rather preferred leisure due to some random institutional changes. There was a leisure bias due to “institutional changes”. Thus, he writes:
“An application of growth theory to the current situation in Japan might be useful in understanding the Great Depression in the United States…. The Japanese economy in the 1990s is not as depressed as the U.S. economy was in the 1930s. Market hours in Japan in the 1990s have fallen only half as much as market hours fell in the United States during the Great Depression. More importantly, the reduction in market hours in Japan in the 1990s was the stated objective of policy. In the 1930s in the United States, the concern was that people were working too little. Japan….they were working too much…”
For him the reason Japan was not as screwed over as the U.S. was because it had more steady working hours, whereas the US, who experienced a huge depression in the 1930s, had very low and short working hours due to a leisure bias in the institutional structure of the economy (gosh… I wonder if the lower working hours that had anything to do with the collapse in demand due to a debt deflation).
Thirdly, you write:
“but its findings do not actually assist your own theory… the authors find that price levels are counter-cyclical. Surely your own theory is that prices will drop while the real economy shrinks in a messy spiral of deflation. This paper predicts that if the economy shrinks, prices will go up”.
I think Steve has said several times that big government and central bank interventions have kept the economy buoyant in the mid 70s and early nineties (i.e. the results you describe, inflation during downturns etc). What the private sector lost in these downturns (i.e. reduction in debt), the government made up. But he notes that now the private debt is so huge (thanks to these precise interventions), it is going to be difficult to supplement the deleveraging in the private sector. If anything, it provides his theories.
I recommend reading Minsky’s “Stabilising an Unstable Economy” (Economic Experience), which shows how big government did indeed cause stagflation, but prevented a depression.
Anyways, it seems again you purposely misread Steve, or misunderstood him.
Ps You write “If you think ‘growth’ theory is wrong for saying that after a shock the growth level will return to trend, aren’t you being equally prescriptive for saying that after a (negative) shock, debt to GDP levels will return to the same universal long term level?”
Yes- but here again I think you’ve missed the point- they are saying equilibrium is a fiction: the economy is unstable. Equilibrium is one thing, a debt deflation (which is empirically supported) in another.
September 1st, 2009 at 3:08 pm
The balance of payments data came out today. Not so good:
“JUNE KEY POINTS
BALANCE OF PAYMENTS
* The current account deficit, seasonally adjusted, rose $7,001m to $13,347m in the June quarter 2009. There was a turnaround of $5,934m on the balance on goods and services, resulting in a $1,667m deficit in the June quarter 2009. The income deficit increased $1,064m (10%) to $11,489m.
* In seasonally adjusted chain volume terms there was an increase of $683m (36%) in the deficit on goods and services. This is expected to detract 0.2 percentage points to growth in the June quarter 2009 volume measure of GDP.”
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/5302.0?OpenDocument
September 1st, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Steve,
Like I predicted accurately that tag team chris joye,rory et al would go for the kill.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Rory-Robertson-Hawkish-pd20090901-VFV9Q?OpenDocument&src=is&is=Property&blog=Concrete%20Detail
“Rory thought he would offer up the community a “public good” of sorts by making an example of Stevie and minimising the likelihood of mass hysteria next time a relatively unknown commentator came out with an Armageddon-like call that had the potential to needlessly spook millions of households (ie, by encouraging the media to apply a sanity test to these statements).
But Stevie also appears confused. He seems to be labouring under the misapprehension that he made not one, but two bets. I noticed this when he referred to the “first half of the bet with Rory”. To the best of my knowledge there was only one bet and certainly no “second half”. And Steve lost that bet if Australian house prices recovered their previous 2008 peak and did not fall by more than 20 per cent. ”
Steve you replied in response to my previous post before above that rory would walk. chris joye disagrees – there was no two bets which is contrary to rorys response.
I very well know what these guys had in mind, I can read them very well. Guys lets gets creative here.
September 1st, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Here is another article that confirms the increasing debt burden of excessively priced housing.
http://business.smh.com.au/business/debt-burden-spoils-retirement-party-20090831-f5df.html
For a long time now I have thought that the tax transfer (welfare) and super system is being utilised by all persuasions of government to prop up the housing system.
It is probably a simplification, but follow this typical life cycle:
Young couple cant afford a home but with government sponsorship they move in.
They decide to have kids, its not too tough because the government provides them a bonus.
They realise they cant afford the sponsored house – they go back to the government and get a family tax payment and childcare assistance so that both can work.
They spend the next 20+ years paying the interest on the home and if they are lucky reduce some principle.
They then retire and with their tax free super payout pay off the mortgage.
With all their funds gone and tied up in their tax free house they go to the govt and receive the aged pension.
I think that we need to somehow be looking at options where the system is wound back and the welfare system is there only for those that have no other alternatives.
It seems to me as if middle class welfare is contributing to increasing speculation in housing.
While I am waiting for the Henry review I do not believe that there is the political will to really change too much and I believe that the result will confirm the status quo as wholesale changes will just not be accepted by the electrate.
Steve and others, do you also see these issues as contributing to the problem and if so how do we change the system.
September 1st, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Spadijer89,
Prescott never said “the Great Depression was *a conscious choice* by American workers to enjoy more leisure, *in response to unspecified changes in the labour market*””
Those were Steve’s words.
It just proves my point that he was misusing his sources if he confused someone as intelligent as you.
September 1st, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Good points Wasabi (that has to rate as one of my favourite nicknames on this site by the way–both for its implications and the fact that I’m a Wasabi junkie–love the stuff!).
1. Prescott does indeed say that, but what he is referring to is his utterly unsupported claim that “changes in labour market institutions” led to the decline in working hours during the Depression, whereas the Japanese actually chose to reduce working hours during their Lost Decade. In both cases, he attributes the cause in the fall in output to a fall in working hours where that is a conscious decision by workers.
2. That sounds more like a reference to Robert Solow from Prescott, and there is a paper by Solow–possibly the one implicitly referenced by Prescott–where he rails against the use of his model for the analysis of cycles:
“The puzzle I want to discuss—at least it seems to me to be a puzzle, though part of the puzzle is why it does not seem to be a puzzle to many of my younger colleagues—is this. More than forty years ago, I … worked out … neoclassical growth theory… [I]t was clear from the beginning what I thought it did not apply to, namely short-run fluctuations in aggregate output and employment … the business cycle… [N]ow … if you pick up an article today with the words ‘business cycle’ in the title, there is a fairly high probability that its basic theoretical orientation will be what is called ‘real business cycle theory’ and the underlying model will be … a slightly dressed up version of the neoclasssical growth model. The question I want to circle around is: how did that happen?” Solow 2003 From Neoclassical”Growth Theory To New Classical Macroeconomics p. 19)
But that didn’t stop other neoclassicals including Prescott for doing precisely that.
Not that I have much sympathy for Solow: his young colleagues were doing to him precisely what he and Samuelson and Hicks and many others had previously done to Keynes. From the same paper:
“For a while the dominant framework for thinking about the short run was roughly Keynesian’. I use that label for convenience; I have absolutely no interest in ‘what Keynes really meant’. To be more specific, the framework I mean is what is sometimes called ‘American Keynesianism’ as taught to many thousands of students by Paul Samuelson’s textbook and a long line of followers.” (p. 21)
3. The anticyclical price finding in K&P was interesting, and something that is consonant with Post Keynesian pricing theory which emphasises the empirical fact that marginal cost falls for the vast majority of firms–so that even if prices are set with reference to marginal cost, it’s a reason to expect prices to fall as output expands rather than to rise.
This is another of my research interests–showing that the neoclassical micro theory of the firm is mathematically false, vacuous, and empirically invalid.
Of course Post Keynesians push a “markup” model of price setting instead, in which price is a markup on the prime costs of production–especially wages but also depreciation–and may also be set to reflect desires to raise investment funds via retained earnings.
I intended using just such a price equation in my first Circuit model, but since that didn’t then have variable wages or explicit capital, I thought that as a first pass I’d use a “neoclassical” equation where the rate of change of prices was a function of the gap between demand and supply. Of course that’s not strictly neoclassical since it was explicitly dynamic rather than a static equilibrium construct, but I still expected it to display “neoclassical” properties, in that I expected a credit crunch to lead to a fall in the price level absorbing most of the shock, and only a tiny amount being transmitted to output and employment.
I got one hell of a surprise when that didn’t happen–the model showed the sort of impact on real output of a credit crunch that we’ve found in the real world: a sudden drop in demand and therefore employment and output.
I also mis-specified the original price equation (the dimensions of the equation were inconsistent; thanks again to Warren Raftshol on this list for pointing this out to me), and the initial model showed a rise in prices during the credit crunch, rather than a fall. That was reversed by a properly specified equation, so that the credit crunch caused a fall in output and a fall in prices.
I am still contemplating how to model prices in the expanded version, but this now raises questions of overdeterminism and parsimony.
Overdeterminism: maybe the PK model is capturing the necessary existence of a physical and monetised surplus–which is already in my model–twice rather than once.
Parsimony: the main effect I’m trying to capture is the specific impact of a debt-deflation, when firms slash margins in order to hang on to market share and cut their debt, but in so doing depress the general price level and increase the debt to GDP ratio. The “flow to stock” (demand-supply gap to price) causal mechanism I currently use captures that nicely and I am not sure that a change to a variable markup would do any better.
The GD of course is an order of magnitude and qualitatively different phenomenon to the cyclical downturns the K&P paper measured, and I expect that the longer term data you nominate which includes it would find something different. I’ll chase that paper up–thanks for the reference.
4. Now I’ll give you a reference: Eugene F. Fama and Kenneth R. French (2004), “The Capital Asset Pricing Model: Theory and Evidence”, Journal of Economic Perspectives-Volume 18, Number 3-Summer 2004 Pages 25-46. In that F&F finally abandon the CAPM:
“The attraction of the CAPM is that it offers powerful and intuitively pleasing predictions about how to measure risk and the relation between expected return and risk. Unfortunately, the empirical record of the model is poor-poor enough to invalidate the way it is used in applications.
The CAPM’s empirical problems may reflect theoretical failings, the result of many simplifying assumptions. But they may also be caused by difficulties in implementing valid tests of the model… In the end, we argue that whether the model’s problems reflect weaknesses in the theory or in its empirical implementation, the failure of the CAPM in empirical tests implies that most applications of the model are invalid.” (pp. 25-26)
5. I don’t think or say that debt to GDP will return to some pre-ordained “universal long term level”, but that they will certainly fall once asset price speculation ceases being profitable (something the Australian government’s policies have delayed, and the US’s have temporarily reversed), and when they do it sets off a chain reaction process that aggregate demand continually runs below aggregate supply and further depresses output and asset prices–which encourages even more falls in the debt to GDP ratio.
It’s that feedback effect that I’m focusing on. Excessive debt has only been on to finance leveraged speculation on asset prices, but that speculation has financed a large part of aggregate demand for commodities as well. With speculation ending and asset prices falling–or simply reverting to trend (the DJIA on its 1914-1999 trend is still about 10 years ahead of itself)–debt will stabilise and therefore the change in debt will stop contributing to aggregate demand. That alone is enough to set the process off, unless the government bulkwards it up with its own spending (whether debt-financed or not).
Incidentally, I very much enjoyed the chance to flesh these points out, and I’m tempted to make your question and my response into a blog entry. Would that be OK by you?