Economists have long had to endure being called “Dismal Scientists”, but really that’s not hard enough on them. With their proclivity to invent trite phrases to describe complex issues, they deserve to be known as Dismal Poets as well.
The latest cliché off the economic jargon production line is “Green Shoots of Recovery”. With governments having laid liberal amounts of fertiliser – in the forms of handouts, budget deficits, slashed interest rates and “quantitative easing” (another new piece of jargon for giving good money to bad lenders in return for bad assets) – they now report signs of economic recovery sprouting like alfalfa everywhere.
At least this analogy has a better foundation than previous favourites like “stepping on the accelerator” (or the brake), which implied the economy was something as straightforward as a car. This one has hints of biology, which is a bit closer to the organic, evolutionary thing an economy actually is.
But economists’ knowledge of the economic garden reminds me more of Chance the Gardener from Being There – a simpleton who those in authority thought was profoundly intelligent because he answered questions about complex issues with simple analogies.
The complex issue being buried by this latest analogy is “what caused the crisis in the first place?” The answer, as I’ve been arguing for years now, is that a debt-financed speculative bubble generated illusory wealth as it grew, but its collapse has now left us with a mountain of private sector debt.
Now that the Ponzi folly of leveraged speculation on asset prices is over, debt has stopped growing and the contribution that growing debt made to demand has disappeared. That alone is enough to cause a crisis: in the USA in 2006-07, private debt grew by $4 trillion, boosting aggregate demand in that $14 trillion economy by over 20 per cent.
Even stabilising debt at its current level results in demand falling by 23 per cent in America. And now the debt bubble is acting in reverse – reducing demand as firms and families reduce debt, and necessarily spend less in the process.
The result is a plunge in demand that drives unemployment up and production down. Government attempts to stop this by throwing large amounts of public money at it can attenuate the process, but they are too small to counteract it because the debt levels are so huge.
So while temporary salves may flow from government stimuli, the recoveries such largesse have engineered in the past – during the recessions of the 80s and 90s – worked only because they restarted private debt growth.
With US private debt at 300 per cent of GDP, there is no prospect of that lending taking off again. So the stimuli will slow the pain, but not stop it. The “Green Shoots” will turn brown, whither and die.
And to see them amidst all the global data itself requires distorted vision (wearing grass-coloured glasses perhaps?). As economic historians Barry Eichengreen and Kevin H. O’Rourke have shown, on a whole host of indicators to date, this crisis is progressing in step with The Great Depression.
How green will neoclassical economists appear to be in a year’s time? Watch this space.
This was originally published on Friday, June 26, 2009 as an expert commentary on Peter Switzer’s relaunched blog.






June 29th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Ouch! The last thing I’ve expected from Steven Keen’s blog here is a plug like this post. “Shop at Switzer”, “Subscribe Now” etc.
The post is not even introducing anything new that regulars here have not alredy heard over and over again on many different sites.
But in my view the topics discussed are lately wide and varied but without focus on what the site used to be about.
Bye,
Ueberbaer
June 29th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
As long as Steve keeps posting then I’ll keep reading. Ads can easily be ignored as long as Steve continues his excellent debtwatch.
June 30th, 2009 at 12:04 am
Yeah I think the Switzer thing is a piss take Ueberbaer.
June 30th, 2009 at 1:46 am
OK, there’s nothing new in the commentary but don’t forget that there will be new subscribers who haven’t read it all before. Personally, I need the regular antidote to all the fairy floss, even if it’s rehashed.
Regarding the ads, I imagine that there was a condition attached to using the Switzer blog material[.|?]
It’s very odd here (in Australia) now. I moved to a WA country town a couple of years ago to get rid of the mortgage and the neighbours. It’s quite tense here now because there are hundreds of families of FIFO mine workers that have been laid off. We are also badly affected by the recent collapse of the Ponzi plantation schemes. At the same time I have friends in Perth who are doing quite well thank you and seem to view depression talk as the latest equivalent to the Y2K warnings.
Banging on about the coming depression is starting to make me feel a bit like Charlton Heston in Soylent Green, so I’m backing off these days and simply telling people to Google Steve Keen.
Thanks for the post Steve.
Muzz
June 30th, 2009 at 2:13 am
Hi ueberbaer,
Just an editing glitch–I cut and pasted from Peter’s site and didn’t notice the text at the bottom because I’m working on my Netbook’s tiny window while travelling.
That said, Peter is an old friend of mine (we did the Masters at UNSW together) and his perspective on the financial system is a lot more nuanced than you might expect. He also was one of the first to give my views a run in the MSM, and has invited me to contribute to this website and his new Sky Business Channel show. So he is doing his bit to communicate a wider perspective to a wider audience.
I’m not being paid for the posts to his blog of course, so I thought it worth copying the piece to here to make up for my inability to post at length while on a vacation.
That said, I’ll copy and paste more carefully in future…
June 30th, 2009 at 4:16 am
Well there are green shoots here on the West side of Brisbane. In the local paper the local BMW dealer reports ‘unprecedented’ demand for BMW’s in response to the Govt Investment Allowance.
In announcing the Investment Allowance the Treasurer Wayne Duck said
“in the form of an additional tax deduction – which will encourage important capital investment by Australian businesses.”
Yes I can see people borrowing to buy a new BMW in order to get an extra tax deduction is an important capital investment by Australian businesses!!!
One is inclined to utter an obscene imprecation
June 30th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Hi Outback,
What will happen to demand for BMWs next month?
A good friend of mine sells filing systems to accountants, lawyers, government and large business. He told me yesterday that June has been horrible for him. He said, “50% govt allowance, end of financial year, heavily discounted product, green shoots and still no sales. What hope have I got of making sales next month”?
Government support of the car industry leaves businesses with extra debt they don’t need and car dealers with bloated expectations of demand. This government distortion only serves to increase instability, prop up the weakest dealers while at the same time putting at risk the survival of the stronger dealers.
As Mish has been saying lately. Deflation is the cure.
June 30th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Might this be a first sign that our magical Oz commodity-based Chinese protection from the worst of the global crisis so far is set to disappear? If so, hold onto your hats…
http://business.smh.com.au/business/china-signals-end-of-stockpiling-20090629-d2i9.html
Also, the iron ore contract price negotiations with the Chinese seem to have failed. It is now in their interests for the spot price to drop significantly – and they are still smarting from the RIO debacle…
June 30th, 2009 at 9:38 am
I do agree that deflation is the cure for something, but I’m not sure what. I’m wondering what 10-20 years of 20% unemployment is good for.
Minsky and Steve Keen keep looking for a tragic flaw in capitalism, an undiagnosed instability that periodically rears its ugly head. I’m more inclined to the view ala Max Keiser that Goldman-Sachs is in the charcoal business after having set fire to the economy. After luring the naive masses into heavy debt, they are now deliberately collapsing the economy with tight credit. The counterbalance to the real estate bubble should have been higher interest rates. Instead, policy kept rates artificially too low.
This site needs to look for alternatives to the banking oligarchy. It’s pretty sure that the banks will go on running the system to serve themselves.
June 30th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Bank for International Settlements warning over stimulus benefits
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25710566-601,00.html
Although the deficits could be manageable if recovery came quickly, the BIS believes the task of removing the distortions that caused the crisis in the first place has barely begun.
“The financial sector has to shrink, as it has grown too large and accumulated assets of dubious quality,” it said. “Debt and leverage in both the financial and the non-financial sectors have to decline further, and household saving rates need to rise to more reasonable levels.”
June 30th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Here’s an interesting idea…
“FINANCIAL products should be treated like medicines and sold to consumers only when they are certified safe to prevent a repeat of last year’s financial meltdown, the world’s central bankers said on Monday. ”
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25711511-31037,00.html
June 30th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
It appears there has been a slump in new home sales last month.
New home sales slump
Chris Zappone
June 30, 2009 – 11:41AM Brisbane Times
http://business.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/new-home-sales-slump-20090630-d34m.html
June 30th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Clive,
I think the most interesting part of the article is right at the end:
“Separate figures out today from the Reserve Bank showed that private borrowing contracted in May although housing finance rose for the month.
Total credit shrank by 0.1 per cent last month, compared to analysts’ forecasts of a 0.2 per cent increase. Borrowing wa 3.9 per cent higher than a year ago.
Housing finance continued its run of increases, rising 0.5 per cent in May, slowing slightly from the 0.6 per cent increase in April. From a year earlier, the increase was 7 per cent.
Those gains, though, contrast with the ongoing slide in other formers of personal credit, which shrank 0.6 per cent in both April and May to be 7.8 per cent lower than a year ago.
Business borrowing dropped 0.7 per cent in May, quickening from the 0.5 per cent pace of decline in April. The total, though, remains 2.1 per cent, higher than for May 2008.”
June 30th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Just a few points for the “true believers”:
- In contrast to the line of argument put forward by neoclassical economists; Minsky/Keen economists understand that economic fundamentals will always be influenced by human emotions. Here-in lies the irony behind the neoclassical economists worship of the salvation of the world theory; “that supply and demand, if left to the normal forces of free market influence, will always return to equilibrium” (hopefully before we’re all dead).
The irony is that these very same economists that fly the flag of free supply/demand=equilibrium are now relying on positive human emotion to maintain demand beyond the point of where it should be.
- My second point is that mankind is always attracted to good news when it involves them directly. That is the reason why the vast majority of people you talk to, and try to warn of the impending disaster, do not want to listen. These people are the ones with large mortgages, work in the FIRE economy or have maxed out their five credit cards. How many of your friends DON’T have a gearing loan, mortgage, multiple credit cards or a job that is not in the FIRE economy or non-essential (non-housing related) services???
- My third point is a further plug against the “free market neoclassical economists”. They want to have their cake and eat it too.
How can they call it a free market? Banks may well be free to lend money, but they have a total disregard for loan security because they rely on debt insurance backed by their Government. (That insurance coming in the form of Fannie Mae and friends, or simply repeated events where Govt. has stepped in to support financial institutions “too big to fail”).
In a free market we would simply let the banks fail if they lend to people who can’t pay them back.
- Finally, from an accountant and business managers point of view, I would like to reassure everyone regarding Steve’s (now simplified argument); that if some 20% of your nations GDP (or business income)comes from borrowed money, and the source of that borrowing stops (due to your debt to equity ratio reaching a point where even our delinquent bankers believe you can’t handle more debt), you will have AT LEAST 20% contraction in GDP (or business income).
If your business was ONLY making a small profit or breaking even when it had 20% of its income from debt, what will happen when the debt stops. Add to that a debt repayment of say 10%. Your gone, call the receivers!
June 30th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
more on Credit…
Private sector credit up 0.1 per cent in May
http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25712251-31037,00.html
“…TOTAL credit provided to the private sector by financial intermediaries fell by 0.1 per cent in May, following a 0.1 per cent rise in April, the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) said.
Over the year to May, total credit rose by 3.9 per cent.
Housing credit rose 0.5 per cent in May, and by 7.0 per cent over the year, seasonally adjusted.
Other personal credit fell 0.6 per cent in May, and was down 7.8 per cent over the year.
Business credit fell 0.7 per cent in the month, but increased 2.1 per cent over the year….”
June 30th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
The latest edition of the Real-World Economics Review has some good articles on the GFC.
http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue48/whole48.pdf
June 30th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
I agree with Steve that the Green shoots stuff is some of the biggest nonsense in years. They keep cheering unemployment claims here in the states in the low 600,000s each week like 1/2% of the people in the country losing their jobs every week is no big deal. Then they report that we lost 350,000 jobs, when it is clear by past accounting that monthly job losses are probably more in the range of 1 million. The stock market has had its greatest quarter, but it is lower on the Dow and SPX than it was on January 6, meaning we lost more in 2 months than we have made up in almost 4 and that was far from a crash.
The big question is, if goverment is going to invent money for everyone, why go to work? Someone brought up the banking system and it is clear that the socialist system of banking that has been instituted in most countries is a disaster for the common man. In fact, anything about debt is a disaster for the common man. Any system that allows a group to invent money to lend to the rest then have the countries involved take the losses is a fraud on humanity.
June 30th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
A couple of other interesting links:
http://www.mint.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/creditcardhell21.jpg
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14153
June 30th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
“In a free market we would simply let the banks fail if they lend to people who can’t pay them back.”
Regardless of the consequences to the rest of the economy? Wasn’t that tried back in 1929 and the early 1930s? And how successful was that…
The banks should be turned into credit unions (co-operative or mutual banks) just as firms which are being bailed out should be turned into co-operatives. Instead of bailing out the class who created this crisis, bailout those who do the work and suffer as a consequence of the actions of their economic masters:
http://anarchism.pageabode.com/anarcho/bailouts-or-co-operatives
I doubt that any capitalist state would do that, of course, which is why people should do it themselves. If people start to act, as they did in the 1930s, we would quickly see the politicians act to try and save capitalism and the state by implementing popular reforms…
June 30th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
My greatest concern is that while the financial tsunami is building up and the tide is going out, we have a collective ’shell gathering party’ going on fuelled by a naiive and wishful thinking media and associated commentary line-up. That most of these ‘economists’ have reasons to reinforce a ‘positive’ mentality (ie. most work for either big banks or finacial institutions that stand to benefit by keeping the ponzi scheme going as long as possible) is a cause for great concern. When the wave finally breaks on Australia’s economy in full we could possibly see a breakdown in our society that will be as breathtaking as it will be sudden.
We have already seen many countries beginning to recognise that this crisis is much worse than the ‘experts’ had imagined, and we have yet to see the true dimensions of the losses in the system revealed because the ‘duck shoving’ continues all over the world in a desperate attempt to stave off the innevitable.
Steve, you need to kick your media diary into another gear! Someone must stand on the beach with a megaphone, as futile as it seems it may be.
PS: Bernie Madoff got 150 years. How many should Hank Paulson, Ben Bernanke, and Tim Geithner et.al. get?
June 30th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
What we seem to be proving is that even with advance warning , reduced interest rates and a stimulus package makes no difference in the long run.
One point that none of the commentators make is that there are many construction projects that will be finished and that construction work is keeping the economy going. Better a half-tenanted office block than a untenanted half-completed shell. The problem is that anything that is below the point of no return is being mothballed, and we will start to see the effect in the next year.
June 30th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Someone must stand on the beach with a megaphone, as futile as it seems it may be.
The sensible economist will be running for high ground, grabbing whatever they can save and hightailing it out of there!
No point shouting at people collecting fish on the beach when they don’t want to listen.
June 30th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
In a year’s time I expect the various TV economists will still be bright and cheery and talking about the looming recovery. ( Why do we hear everyday in the media from the same “economics experts” and not get opinions from a range of people ? )
So our message to ordinary Australians is to have confidence and get out there and spend spend spend! After all its all about confidence!” ( Thats easy for a highly paid TV economist with a secure job and money in the bank, not living paycheck to paycheck to say… )
“Maybe we are slightly behind where we thought we’d be but hey there are very encouraging figures coming out from overseas!
June 30th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
i think the phrase your looking for is “rose coloured glasses” steve, as far as the optimism of your neo classical colleagues are concerned.
lets hope the lights dont go out as they drag us all down this dead end neo classical hallway
June 30th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
yes anarcho,
bail out the debtors and not the creditors.
the bad banks in the US and europe need to be nationalised, their debts written off and their assetts restructured or sold off to the good banks.
the owners and managers of these corporations need to loose the lot, instead of their behaviour being enabled, and they being molicoddled.
what the US administration has to realise is that rather than their enabling being a lifeline to those troubled banks, its going to end up being a noose around their own necks, when the tide of public opinion turns and populist demagogs appear wanting revenge.
if they do not get this right, the very integrity of the american union will be at stake.
June 30th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
may be we need to start a new abolishinist movement anarco,
but this time we set about abolishing financial slavery.
in our struggle to abolish slavery, we always get mentions of the prominant politicians that trumpeted the cause, and the fact that a civil war was partly fought over it.
but we must never forget, the role of english housewives and their boycotting of the sugar trade. a trade that had the blood stained hands of slaves all over it.
or the role of the brookes diagram(it was a cross sectional drawing of how slaves were housed on ships) which tore at the concience of anyone who happened to gaze upon it, as they sipped their tea across the tea houses of england in the late 18th and early 19th century.
you may be right , may be we do need kitchen table politics to be taken out into the streets, and our very own ponzi as opposed to brookes diagrams to be authored, and plastered all over the walls of this nation.
June 30th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Soley…I’m just trying to be the last man standing…well me and my staff!
BTB I agree re sales of BMW’s next month or whenever the stupid subsidy stops. I mjust keep wondering how much money is going to be wasted propping up car dealerships and Banks.
I’m starting to lose the plot and starting to feel like “The Bullocky” by Judith Wright
Beside his heavy-shouldered team
thirsty with drought and chilled with rain,
he weathered all the striding years
till they ran widdershins in his brain:
Till the long solitary tracks
etched deeper with each lurching load
were populous before his eyes,
and fiends and angels used this road.
All the long straining journey grew
a mad apocalyptic dream,
and he old Moses, and the slaves
his suffering and stubborn team.
Then in his evening camp beneath
the half-light pillars of the trees
he filled the steepled cone of night
with shouted prayers and prophecies.
I feel like i’m going mad as the old bullocky…fair dinkum…the whole thing is nuts!
Sorry folks. i know this is not a constructive post!!!
BTW it is a great poem! I guess kids are not taught these things any more.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:24 am
Warren said:
“The counterbalance to the real estate bubble should have been higher interest rates. Instead, policy kept rates artificially too low.”
I don’t agree. Looking back over the history of US markets it can be seen that over the last 20 years, simple CDs savings have generated a better return over this time period than equities.
That tells me that the cost of capital has been too high during this period, not too low.
The problem was not low rates (which in turn simply reflect low growth), but that people borrowed at these low rates looknig for profit that simply was not there.
This paradox in which rates seem both too low and too high is the death rattle of capitalism.
Warren: “This site needs to look for alternatives to the banking oligarchy. It’s pretty sure that the banks will go on running the system to serve themselves.”
OK. The right model for the vast majority of people will be peer-ro-peer credit. I have a tray of vegetables which you want but you have no money right now. I create the money for you to buy them by assigning myself a credit and you an interest free debit. The credit and debit are two anti-particles which represent money, but which net to nothing.
Then add some suitable IT (trust networks, maybe a bit of crypto), and we then get fungibility – I can take my credit and use it to pay off a different debt.
As long as the system remains interest free then the result is that no net money is ever created, yet there will never be a shortage of money as long as people keep coming up with things otehrs want.
In this system one becomes a node through which wealth flows rather than accumulates, and ones wealth is measured not be accumulation of interest bearing money but by an accumulation of trust and connectivity. There is still an argument to be made for interest bearing debt-money for major capital investment but it simple is not needed for the vast majority of straightfoward exchange and consumption.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:30 am
Been a couple of moons since I posted – reading with interest the debates and ideas flowing.
Like most people here, I have been surprised by the rebound in the Dow over recent months in response to those fabled “green shoots”.
Initially I thought it may be a temporary dead cat bounce but as it continued I thought there must be some concerted effort going on by the Banksters to keep the stock market up.
Now a slip of the tongue by one of the Traders shows that it is none other than the US government that is intervening and manipulating the market. I guess this comes under the heading “whatever it takes” – even if it is illegal.
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/
Skip to around 2 minutes on the video.
So where are the stock markets heading?
In the short term – wherever the US thinks is in its best interest.
In the long term – IMHO to an ugly demise as everyone realises that the markets are so corrupt and no longer want to bet on a ponzi scheme.
As the difference between the markets and their true underlying value continues to diverge the coming crash is looking more and more horrendous.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:40 am
“In the long term – IMHO to an ugly demise as everyone realises that the markets are so corrupt and no longer want to bet on a ponzi scheme.”
Well, whether there is a demise or not depends on whether full facism can be achieved before the markets collapse.
We’re pretty close already – the system at it’s core is deeply fascist, as the banker/government/military-industrial revolving door reveals.
It’s been cleverly hidden by adding a layer of socialism/welfare over the fascist core, then an even thinner veneer of democracy over that.
A very, very rotten onion which is beginning to stink so badly ordinary people are starting to notice the stench.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:48 am
The Green Shots phenomenon can be explained in several dimensions:
1. Governments and media moguls may actually think that if we just manage to stay afloat for a few more months there will be a recovery. This is based on a neo-classical economical theory. Just look at this graph:
http://media.ft.com/cms/e29f3aac-63ee-11de-a818-00144feabdc0.gif
which comes from:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b0f97ae8-6408-11de-a818-00144feabdc0.html
(At least they started considering “Scenario three: Back to the pump – deflation, ongoing recession”)
2. People like to be mislead. This is not an assumption – just a sad observation as I wish the reality was different. Our culture is based on the cult of celebrities and consumption. When consumption slows down the whole economy crumbles. Only the minority subscribes to the “old” religions. Just think about the sad death of Michael Jackson – how his life was wasted. He personified the tragedy of the predominant consumerist way of life.
3. There are cynical manipulators around who just want to be able to harvest one more yield of financial crops.
4. There may be shadow processes we don’t fully understand because we are not supposed to like offloading of T-Bonds by Chinese or Russian investors (whether this is true or not I don’t know). They may manifest themselves as yet another bubble.
Now let me take a swipe at the anarchist ideology which is being proposed on this forum. Yes I have read a bit of the A-FAQ and I am highly impressed by the writing skills of the author(s).
However based on 2 and 3 I am very sceptical whether cooperatives or other similar solutions can help at all. You cannot un-brainwash people who enjoyed being brainwashed by the media and by themselves. If people are suddenly confronted with the reality they will become even more prone to manipulation. I don’t believe that workers losing jobs can just take the factories over and convert them into cooperatives without any opposition from the previous owners. A revolution is the right name of that process. But since these social processes have their own dynamics and people actually like to be brainwashed by the leaders (I have seen this with my own eyes) all the revolutions are either hijacked, defeated or evolve into totalitarian systems.
Of course the idea of a peaceful revolution looks innocent:
“However, all anarchists are agreed that any revolution should be as non-violent as possible. Violence is the tool of oppression and, for anarchists, violence is only legitimate as a means of self-defence against authority.”
and
“While many try and paint revolutions (and anarchists) as being violent by their very nature, the social revolution desired by anarchists is essentially non-violent.”
http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secJ7.html#secj71
It is all about cooperation and freedom, isn’t it?
However the facts from the Spanish civil war when these ideas were tested in practice were different. That attempt to build a free society based on cooperatives cannot be idealised and glorified. Anarchists had blood on their hands – and a lot of it. One can disagree with the position from which the following essay was written but should not question the facts mentioned there:
“The Spanish fascists used barbaric methods throughout the Spanish Civil War in order to establish a brutal dictatorship. The Spanish Communists used similar wartime measures in their failed effort to give birth to an even more totalitarian regime. But many discussions of the Spanish Civil War overlook, minimize, or apologize for the atrocious behavior and tyrannical aspirations of perhaps the most powerful faction of the Spanish Republicans: the Anarchist movement.”
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/spain.htm
“‘We do not wish to deny,’ avowed Diego Abad de Santillan, a prominent Anarchist in the region of Catalonia, ‘that the nineteenth of July brought with it an overflowing of passions and abuses, a natural phenomenon of the transfer of power from the hands of privileged to the hands of the people. It is possible that our victory resulted in the death by violence of four or five thousand inhabitants of Catalonia who were listed as rightists and were linked to political or ecclesiastical reaction.’” De Santillan’s comment typifies the Spanish Anarchists’ attitude toward his movement’s act of murder of several thousand people for their political views: it is a mere “natural phenomenon,” nothing to feel guilty over.”
Maybe we should stick with capitalism and just fix a few the most broken things rather than unleash the demons of (initially peaceful) revolution again?
July 1st, 2009 at 12:59 am
Sticking with capitalism is untenable unless the fundamentals lead to growth.
- slowing population growth ultimately turning negative possibly as early as 2025. You can’t have aggregate growth with a falling population.
- huge wage arbitrage making a continuation of capitalism in advanced economies politically unsustainable.
- a very sudden aging process that we have systematically failed to prepare for.
All these are hugely deflationary factors. There is non need for a revolution since the system is going to fall apart of its own accord.
July 1st, 2009 at 8:26 am
It’s certainly appropriate that there is persistent anger and total negativism about the past two years, but at some point things do stop getting worse and begin to improve, however tepidly. Doubtless some of the “green shoots” talk is wishful thinking or propaganda, but in the southwest of the U.S. where I live one can begin to see some emergence from the worst at least on a momentum basis.
Many smaller and larger corporations are investing in their businesses, and some new people are being hired and others rehired. There may be more pleasant surprises in the earnings calendar. Normally July to October is not a good time for exchange-traded stock equities, but Sam Stoval of S&P found that since 1930 there were 13 years in which a recession ended in which stocks advanced an average of 14% between May 1 and October 31. Some professionals with good records, such as James Stack, Paul Kasriel, and ECRI, feel that the recession will probably end this year. So perhaps the stock rally will persist despite our psychological and intellectual depression.
If I bring this up in many places I am shouted down, and I would expect that at such a point as this in the economic and market phase. Steve has performed a very valuable function in explaining the origin and progression of “the mess”, and I hope he will do the same as and if recovery proceeds despite our worst fears.
Enjoy your much deserved vacation, Steve!!
TD
July 1st, 2009 at 8:56 am
http://twocents.blogs.com is my URL which isn’t working through clicking on my nickname, fwiw.
TD
July 1st, 2009 at 9:03 am
The main issue is to decouple pseudo-growth in consumption and the social order.
In fact there was not much real growth over the last 10 years – just a few bubbles. Mainly value of the land grew but not the real welfare.
The decoupling has to happen anyway as I believe we have reached natural limits of growth of consumption in rich countries within the current framework. The consumption was artificially pushed up by enabling bubbles – now this doesn’t work any more and the bubbles are bursting.
The issue of consumption level reduction has not been addressed by the leftist / anarchist utopia at all. Cooperatives can reduce resource wasting only because they fall apart not because there is a control or feedback mechanism built it for example to reduce the amount of coal mined by a cooperative miners. This can only be achieved at the state level – if you dispose of the state there is no way it can be controlled.
Can you imagine building nuclear power stations if you dispose of the state? Of course the alternative already proposed is a decentralised grid. However if you don’t provide capacities to store electric energy it will simply not work. Who will organise that if there is no state? It will not self-organise itself if people cannot seek making profits.
The only way you can have resource usage rationing is if we introduce either throttling at the supply level (carbon trading by energy producers) or at the demand level and simultaneously strengthen income redistribution.
Allowing for a disorderly collapse of the society is not an acceptable solution even if somebody hates this society. Remember – a stray bullet may kill not me but you.
Personal carbon trading is an example of idea which can be applied at the demand side and which may help redistribute income as people may sell unused allocations. It is like introducing an alternative currency based on commodities (not credit-based). Energy made by burning coal or oil is our new gold. The old credit-based currencies should coexist with the carbon allocation permits. This idea is perfectly compatible with private ownership of means of production. There is nothing wrong with capitalism – even the Chinese have adapted that system. Is profit-seeking a crime? To me the problem is the excessive greed reinforced by marketing and the fact that certain social groups managed to take over the control of our society.
The system in Australia (or in continental Europe) is not going to fall apart. I can assure all the well-wishers who are getting ready to push for their pet projects like getting rid of capitalism. We will have to cope with very serious challenges but we will deal with them. My prediction is based on observation of the collapse of the communism. Even 30% reduction of GDP is manageable. If you just let people look after themselves, help the most disadvantaged, sort out the real issues and don’t mess up with the society too much all will be good.
I don’t know much about the stability of the US though. Maybe this is the place the anarchists should chose to experiment? But please don’t try too hard as the nuclear dust can reach my family in Europe.
July 1st, 2009 at 9:13 am
Ak, just for the record I’m no anarcho-capitalist or neo-marxist. Capitalism will fail by definition as the return on capital approaches zero.
There is the interesting question of whether it can surivive with -ve interest rates (I think erpahs it can if attitudes to growth change appropriately) , but regardless of that it shan’t be able to provide employment sufficient for political stability without significant (much more so than we have today) welfare provision and/or a much larger sector of the economy becoming not-for-protif.
Now you can term such scenarios capitalist if you like, but they are in actual fact so far from the capitalist ethos that the labels become meaningless.
No doubt the rabid libertarians and ann-randers can be assuaged to some degree if they think the free market still rules, and likewise the left if they see progress in equality.
Somehow though I really doubt either group is going to be anywhere close to satisfied. Ultimately the disengaged masses will determine what is acceptable and what is not. Understanding the dynamics of their existence in the future is key to unravelling potential political futures.
July 1st, 2009 at 9:57 am
scepticus,
I can agree with you – let me clarify what I stated:
I have used the word “capitalism” in the broad sense – that is private ownership of means of production is not banned and market forces do their job in allocating resources – as opposed to other “-isms”.
Of course the current system based on abusing power by large corporations and FIRE “industries” is unsustainable.
Strictly speaking I believe in a “mixed model”.
July 1st, 2009 at 11:32 am
ak
I see you use the term “means of production”. It seems to me that the neoclassical economists place no value os this “means of production” as they have encouraged the handing over of the “means of production” to foreign even communist countries.
Australians have very little ownership of the “means of production” either private or public although these neoclassical economists are so stupid that they do not realise this. “Market forces” have “done their job” to allocate resources out of Australia.
The current system has meant that the CAD countries are running the planet’s biggest Ponzi schemes. They borrow to pay high dividends and roll over “investments” while spending the “investor’s” money just like every other Ponzi scheme.
Your broad sense use of the term “capitalism” does not seem to descibe what has been going on in Australia and the US for the last five decades.
To your blaming of large corporations I would like to add ponzi financed “free trade”. The green shoots of weeds have been groing for 50 years.
July 1st, 2009 at 2:43 pm
I find it odd that Australian posters here are so much more negative than those elsewhere despite seemingly reliable data suggesting that the Australian GDP and export hit has been far milder than in most places in the Americas, Asia, Africa, or Europe.
Is this just due to relative physical isolatation, making people feel more put upon than they really are, or is there some secret disaster that the rest of the world hasn’t heard about Australia’s true conditions? I’m meaning to be straightforward here and not ironic or clever in any contemporary sense.
TD
July 1st, 2009 at 3:31 pm
twocents,
I really don’t care what newscorp or these guys:
http://money.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=831834
have to serve.
I grew up on communist propaganda in another country so I know how to tell when they lie. (Hint – their lips are moving).
I can recommend reading the following posts first:
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/03/22/fhb-boost-is-australias-sub-prime-lite/
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/
So apart from having a few FHOGS more (and no empire to look after), can you show me the exact difference between Australia and the US regarding housing market? That the process of bursting the bubble has been delayed?
It is pure maths and it will happen if not tomorrow then maybe next year.
But it is inevitable.
July 1st, 2009 at 3:59 pm
twocents
Many people in Australia have been hurting for longer than in the US but for a different reasons. Real estate has been overpriced at a higher level than ever in the US. We do not have a jingle mail option here so the banks can get very meen.
Good for the banks but very bad for the first people to loose their jobs. The government is helping the banks with what is really a home sellers grant, this is propping up this painfull (for people who need a home, or can’t meet payments) system. Bank welfare by the government at the peoples’ expense (buyers and tax payers).
They have pushed us up higher so we have further to fall. Perhaps that is why we are pessimistic, we see, the pain and the bad future.
July 1st, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Thanks ‘brightspark’’spot on’ again! and if I may put my ‘twocents’ worth here! As someone who has witnessed all recessions since 1974 I now find that as an unemployed EX ‘FIRE’ INDUSTRY WORKER the ‘game’ has changed and we are hurting without income and the usual ‘debt’
‘oz’ is not the same and do not think it will ever be the same again!Those colleagues who I know are in the same boat are ’shell shocked’ at the fact that ‘our precious middle class’ is ‘KAPUT’! they had never been unemployed before!THE NEW: ‘nojob-no-income-not-enough-super’CLASS HAS ARRIVED! that is why we are more pessimistic ‘twocents’!
July 1st, 2009 at 6:26 pm
tommyt
The loss of the middle class here and in the US it triggering the collapse. Our super is heavily exposed to the national ponzi scheme.
Also they haven’t been training enough people for the middle class positions so they will soon see that we don’t have enough skilled people just to manage and maintain our infrastructure, let alone “produce” anything.
In an attempt to head of this looming “skills shortage” they have down graded and gutted the national vocational training system to a skills only (now renamed “competency”) based system with no knowledge requirement. This has already lead to some instances of loss of life industrial errors. You are probably aware of these changes in the ‘Fire’ industry. This has been done to “increase efficiency” and “reduce costs”, to keep the national ponzi scheme going just that bit longer (they think forever LOL).
What they dont realise is that we are almost at this moment of truth and whatever happens they will soon need to step aside and let others clean up their mess.
July 1st, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Yes that’s right! I like the “clean up the mess” analogy.We (oz) with no ‘productive capacity’,( imports??) will have a hard time of it, somewhere as you say the ‘changes’ the ‘new class’ as I call them, have made, render all of us very vulnerable as Australians!But as no one wants to pay attention,brainwashed & trusting as the majority are,(mass media junkies)we are indeed in deep ‘poo poo’!! Thanks ‘bright spark’!
July 1st, 2009 at 6:39 pm
I work in the sawgrinding business and also am a past owner of one of those.
It is a very good gauge of what is happening in the real economy, as the steel mills, manufacturing industry and builders and handymen
all use this service.
I am just posting an observation here : Things are going gangbusters in this field, lots of work and activity going on. Also here in Brisbane , literally in every street in the ‘burbs there are at least 2 to 3 houses being demolished/build .
Maybe you guys are too pessimistic , or is the proverbial going to hit the fan soon ?
July 1st, 2009 at 6:52 pm
BrightSpark1,
You don’t count skilled migrants. At least in the IT industry there is a lot of them.
July 1st, 2009 at 7:37 pm
ak
I am aware of “skilled” migration. A lot of these people have dubious qualifications which are of no use here (we dont check them very well) and in any case only use the OS qualification to gain permanent residency. They then proceed to work in some other vocation. Others have good qualifications but lack the language skills and, or motivation to pursue their vocation in Australia.
Others gain their “qualification” here with no intention of ever working in the particular vocation. The vocation having been chosen on the basis of PR “permanent residency” points.
For example hair dressers and chefs qualify for full points. Students come here on student visas gain the qualification (at a good or not so good college) paying fees by working here while they do so. They then obtain PR,and find employment in another area or go to university on HECS.
It works for some vocations IT may be one of these. For many others it does not.
Some employers are waking up to this looming shortage. They are also becomming aware that recently qualified or “competency based” trained and assessed individuals lack the cognitive abilities to carry out the needed tasks safely and adequately. That is, they are incompetent.
The whole skilled immigration scheme however seems to be an attempt, albiet unsucessful, by the government and corporations to financially disadvantage their own citizens by reducing wages, not solve shortages. The unions are also culpable here.
Skilled migration certainly does little to alleviate the skills shortages.
July 1st, 2009 at 7:45 pm
unclepete
The first home buyer grant at work here, amplified to around $70,000 by the banks. I notice the same things here. But when the government cuts this and the interest rates increase, the fan will choke.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:57 am
This article from The Asia Times is dated May 12 and so is a little old but it is a pretty good article just the same.
“You can’t handle the truth”
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/KE12Dj01.html
One section of the article by Chan Akya asks the same question i have been asking of anyone who will listen
Where the heck is all this money going to come from to finance all this deficit spending by all governments at the same time?
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:49 am
I would really like to know what is driving the price of oil up??? with negative gdp figures globaly where is this demand coming from??