I’ve had a few exchanges with neoclassical economists recently via the East Asia Forum blog, whose editor approached me to write a version of my “What a load of Bollocks” post on this site. That piece “Why neoclassical economics is dead“, critiqued an East Asia Forum post “The state of economics” by neoclassical textbook authors McTaggart, Findlay and Parkin.
A reply to my article by Adelaide University’s Richard Pomfret, entitled “Too soon for obituaries: economics is alive and (reasonably) well“, concluded with the following statement:
“Why is there such a market in Australia for writers who create a straw man of ‘neoclassical economics’ or, in the 1990s jargon, ‘economic rationalism’? It may reflect the low level of economics literacy across the population as a whole.
Unfortunately that is a vicious circle: people do not want to study economics because it is irrelevant, and they believe it is irrelevant because they have not studied economics. Or perhaps they studied under one of the iconoclasts who told students that neoclassical economics is dead.” (Pomfret)
I haven’t bothered to reply to Pomfret, partly because that East Asia blog doesn’t have all that high a level of discussion (most posts get 5 or less comments on them, rather less than the norm here!), partly because I’d rather let events decide which of us is right, and partly because I know that trying to point out the flaws in neoclassical economics to believers is as futile as a discussion about the existence of a god between an athiest and a theist. But the degree of disconnect between his defence of neoclassical economics, and how people are feeling about economics and the economy today, is remarkable:
“There is a risk/return trade-off to opening the economy and liberalising the financial sector. The OECD countries with the most dynamic financial sectors (the US, the UK, Ireland and to a lesser extent Australia and Spain) had the fastest growth in the 1990s and 2000s and were more exposed to financial crises than say Italy, Germany or Japan – but the reformers are much better off over the two decades, even allowing for the current financial crisis, than the others.” (Pomfret)
Of course he’s also ignoring the myriad academic critiques of the internal consistency of neoclassical economics that I detailed in Debunking Economics, but I’m so used to neoclassical economists ignoring (and more frequently, not even being aware of) such critiques that I saw no point in wasting my breath pointing them out.
However I was pleased to find that at least some students in economics are starting to voice their frustrations with neoclassical economics in class–something that I know is vital if we’re ever to get rid of this pseudo-science and develop a genuinely empirical alternative. A student at Melbourne University who is currently suffering through Intermediate Microeconomics wrote this set of observations (Part 1 and Part 2) on the subject prior to his exams this semester, and distributed it to his classmates.
I hope this isn’t the last time that a student gives a neoclassical lecturer a hard time. It certainly isn’t the first–I was doing likewise almost 40 years ago as an undergraduate at Sydney University, in the struggles that led to the development of the Department of Political Economy there (a quick reminder to any Sydney-based readers that I’ll be speaking at a discussion of Political Economy with Frank Stilwell and Evan Jones at Gleebooks on Tuesday June 16).
That’s not to say that I agree with the manner in which Political Economy has developed since those heady days of student rebellion in the early 1970s. I have always taken a strongly analytical approach to economics; I simply reject the static methodology that dominates neoclassical economics, and too often turns up in rival schools of thought as well because economists in general are ignorant of the standard methods of dynamic analysis that permeate the true sciences and associated disciplines like engineering and computing. Instead I argue that we need to embrace dynamic analysis as a starting point to developing a meaningful, empirical approach to economics (see these proofs of two new book chapters for more details–one on maths and the other on microeconomics).
Hopefully the days of a truly empirical approach to economics are approaching, given the obvious role that neoclassical economics has had in making this crisis so much worse than it would have been without their deregulatory interventions–ones that Pomfret of course applauds in his reply to me:
“In Australia, the advice of economists led to reforms in the 1980s that produced two decades of stellar economic growth. Not only do we have more goods, but we have better goods and choice.” (Pomfret)
Right, those reforms. One of the latest such set came out of The Wallis Committee, at which I argued against deregulation of the financial sector on the basis of Minsky’s Financial Instability Hypothesis. In his piece, Pomfret trots out the “tsunami” defence of the failure of economists to predict this crisis:
“Economists recognized a bubble before 2007, even though they did not predict when and how a financial crisis ensued in the US, UK, Iceland and elsewhere (but not everywhere). As Greg Mankiw says in the article cited by Keen, to blame economists for this predictive failure is like criticising doctors for not predicting that swine flu would originate in Mexico. Steve Keen didn’t predict the timing either.” (Pomfret)
In fact, I did predict the timing–by developing this site, by my commentaries on the inevitability of a debt-induced crisis from December 2005, and by the remarks I made in December 2006 to the Wallis Committee, on the consequences of their recommendation to allow securitised lending. The economic fiasco we are now experiencing was not an unpredictable tsunami, but entirely predictable:
“The securitisation of debt documents such as residential mortgages does not alter the key issue, which is the ability of borrowers to commit themselves to debt on the basis of “euphoric” expectations during an asset price boom. The ability of such borrowers to repay their debt is dependent upon the maintenance of the boom, and as the share market reactions to yesterday’s comments by Alan Greenspan reminded us, such conditions cannot be maintained indefinitely.
Should a substantial proportion of eligible assets (e.g., residential houses during a real estate boom like that of 87-89) be financed by securitised instruments, the inability of borrowers to pay their debts on a large scale will not, of course, directly affect liquidity in the same fashion that a failure of bank debtors does. Instead, the impact will be felt by those who purchased the securities, or by insurance firms who underwrote the repayment.
Where this is a government, the impact on liquidity will again be slight, since public debt will replace private.
Where this is a financial institution, such as a bank, it will be in a very similar situation to the State Bank of Victoria (and many others) after the last real estate crash, with similar consequences.
Where this is an insurance company, it could be driven into bankruptcy, with an impact on liquidity via its shareholders and its own creditors. However this would not be as serious as the second instance above.
Where the securities are tradeable, there would obviously be a collapse in the tradeable price, and, potentially, the bankrupting of many of the investors–depending again on their own financing arrangements.” (Keen 1996)
I would like at least some ackknowledgement from academic neoclassical economists that gee, maybe it wasn’t such a good idea to allow securitised lending after all–even Alan Greenspan has done something of a “mea culpa” after the event. But instead they trot out banalities like “Not only do we have more goods, but we have better goods and choice” as a defence of their policy interventions.
The reason they get away with such isolation from the real world is precisely that: their isolation. Greenspan would have been torn to shreds by the Congressional committee had he used such a defence to them.
We can’t bring Congress, or Parliament, to bear on what happens in academic instruction in economics. But students can give their lecturers a hard time about serving up empirically barren nonsense as economic analysis. Are the students revolting? I certainly hope so!






June 13th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
[...] View post: Are the students revolting? [...]
June 13th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Steve
I would not dignify people like Pomfret and other mainstream economists with your time. The point is they ignored you for a long time and now they are on the defensive and responding to you and attacking you. It is a backhanded compliment. You have already won!
An example of the nonsense Pomfret writes include:
“to say that economists provide good advice that has raised material living standards in Australia does not mean that there is no room for improvement.”
Since when has anyone accepted that economists have been providing “good advice” or “has rasied material living standards”? Where is the proof? They have arguably created the unfolding misery which the GFC, which is lowering the standard of living. The only real progress is in science.
The quality of computers has improved relative to wages. The quality of cars has improved relative to wages. Advances in medical sciences have led to greater longivity. There is no convincing evidence that any of this is due to “good advice” from economicists.
There are plenty of evidence that economists have impeded even greater progress in the welfare of mankind. The GFC is a setback of some significance.
June 13th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Steve
your comment about arguments over religion is a great analogy. however, I think it’s even deeper than that. the fact of the matter is that most people on earth are religious, in one form or another. essentially all religion is based on faith in a set of ideas without requiring proof as to their veracity.
I believe it’s that very characteristic, that is cultivated in so much of humanity, that is behind the basic inability of most to approach a topic like the global financial crisis rationally. skepticism doesn’t help you sleep at night, but it is helpful in finding solutions when the majority opinion isn’t well-supported by facts.
but, until faith gets equated to naivete, and skepticism is considered virtuous, I think you’ll get to keep talking to deaf neoclassical economists’ ears. that’s not to say that a faithful person can’t be right, but it does handicap one’s ability to reason.
June 13th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
The quality of computers has improved relative to wages. The quality of cars has improved relative to wages. Advances in medical sciences have led to greater longivity. There is no convincing evidence that any of this is due to “good advice” from economicists.
Very true. In fact, computers (hardware and software), medical advancements, and a great deal of auto technology has been developed by the state and university sectors, not the private sector. The industries above are almost perfect examples of the system of public subsidy, private profit, proudly promoted as free market enterprise. Of course, you’ll rarely, if ever, find an economist admitting this.
Ironically enough, the greatest enemies of capitalism are neoclassical economists. Through their nonsensical theory, they have turn capitalism into one of the most unstable and inequitable economic systems ever. Even Marxists can’t claim to be the greatest enemy because they haven’t deluded themselves as greatly into thinking that they understand how capitalism functions properly, unlike neoclassical economists.
As for the nonsense advocated by Pomfret, much of the “economic rationalist” policies advocated by his ilk since the 1980s have given ever more freedom to the other great enemy of the market, corporations, to externalize costs, rent-seek (commit political corruption), form into oligopoly formation often backed by monopolistic intellectual property rights, and so on. All in the name of the “free market”. A better title for economic rationalists are “selective market fanatics”.
Promfret’s analogy of comparing the GFC to the emergence of swine flu is nonsense. One can’t detect the emergence of flu until it has already infected and caused health problems. However, the GFC could be seen coming a mile away if one were to analyze the macroeconomic data, specifically private debt.
Does anyone feel like organizing witch-burning?
June 13th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Steve,
I dare to disagree. Present students will not revolt in Australia or in Poland. They are after iPhones and iWhatever. When they mature they have to work 30 years to pay back the mortgage on a 2 bedroom apartment. They have to pass exams in order to get a degree in business or finances. If they revolt they will not pass the exams. When they graduate they will be directly transformed from the state of being naive to the state of being as cynical and sceptical as I am now.
Only when the crisis bites hard and closes the easy path to the consumerist adulthood (it looks that the process has already started in the US), only then the students may start revolting.
I see more value in addressing much wider audience than just students of the economics faculties. If you write a few more books you can educate non-economists about the processes which led to the GFC. I hope that the book you are writing now is exactly a step in that direction. Once people are baited then you can start presenting the alternative economics. I think that this should happen at 3 levels: for the wide audience – just the simple explanation, something like the great post about the “Roving Cavaliers of Credit” then something more in-depth like the Debunking book and then at the academic level with all the bells and whistles – obviously with differential equations. By the way I would have digested the Debunking book much easier if you actually had put the formulas and equations in the Appendix there.
If your ideas become mainstream then big fat corporation executives and politicians will start using them as well. For them it doesn’t make any difference – they can use whatever theory as long as it is useful. It is also largely irrelevant who the politicians are – after a few months they adjust and only think about winning the next elections and staying in power.
Even the Greens can be used to prove that theory as they are quite dogmatic when stick to the obsolete anti-nuclear ideology from the 1980-ties. It is yet another Cold War era intellectual fossil. Do they really want to fix the carbon dioxide emission problem? They want to make their electorate happy and maybe get one or two good things done. Dogmatism is the best way to achieve that – don’t ask too many difficult questions, just keep marching.
The proper way to get rid of the neoclassical economics is (when the crisis bites us really hard) to convince politicians that financing teaching the neoclassical pseudo-science is a waste of money and that more intellectually developed countries like China or Brazil don’t do that. Once this happens all your current opponents will become the most fanatical supporters of Minsky and the others.
And Rory Robertson will claim that he was the man who has predicted property prices to collapse in 2008 and who has won the bet against professor Keen who claimed that they will go up by 40%.
Sounds like a joke? Maybe I have seen something like that already.
This is exactly what happened in Poland in 1989. All the Marxist professors suddenly become neoclassicals over a few months time. So don’t worry – your theory will prevail. But you can’t win a bet against Rory Robertson.
June 14th, 2009 at 1:29 am
Steve
I am currently doing an MBA through an Australian university (shall remain nameless, but based in Vic), and recently completed a subject where McTaggart, Findlay, et al were the authors of the prescribed textbook, “Economics”.
Although I think McTaggart, Findlay et al *tried* to keep a neutral tone through parts of the book, their neoclassical bias shone through when they started to talk about applying the principals to “the real world”. Simplistic Marginal Benefit, Marginal Cost graphs that lead the student immediately to conclude that rent ceilings, minimum wages, tax in general, basically any government intervention lead to “deadweight loss”, and by logical conclusion are “bad”.
Now, I’m not in favour of these things necessarily, but you would like to think a more objective viewpoint would explain both ways of looking at the issue, rather than drive home consistently a line that government intervention is wrong.
In the major assignment was a real eyebrow raiser. The last question was basically “Explain why government action X is wrong” rather than, “Explain your viewpoint on government action X”. Isn’t university education about seeing both sides of an issue and coming to your own conclusion, not “confirm my worldview and I’ll give you good marks”?
The problem is that there’s some reasonable economic analysis tied in with all the ideological conclusions, so it’s hard for the average economics student to sift through what’s good and bad. Much easier to just toe the line to get good marks, which is my fear for what the education system is currently producing.
My question is though: do you see this situation changing in Australian universities any time soon? From your understanding of how the curricula and prescribed books are set, who are the real people to be persuaded here?
Cheers
Ben
June 14th, 2009 at 4:26 am
BenR,
I also had to suffer through an MBA (in Victoria) including my undergraduate degree that taught the standard neoclassical crap. In fact, one of my macroeconomics books was called Macroeconomics, 4th Edition by McTaggart, Findlay, and Parkin.
Certainly the vast majority of students, if not all, could not mount an attack against the economic theory that was been taught in class. Students typically aren’t taught any economic history and/or history of economic thought. These two steams have been sidelined, and barely anything pre-1970s is offered in class.
During my undergrad, I simply didn’t know enough to critize any of the textbook models. By the time I suffered through the neoclassical finance, accounting and economics subjects in my MBA, I was reading Steve’s Debunking Economics book and then finally realized that the textbook models were a load of crap.
Strangely enough, whole sections of microeconomics textbooks are devoted to analyzing the distortions that monopoly causes and yet nothing is said about the copyrights that protect these economic textbooks – as if no other better system can be constructed.
Despite the mathematically defunct nature of neoclassical models, I found something else to be quite odd. Some of the worse distortions of the market by conservative standards, such as negative externalities, rent-seeking and IPR were simply glossed over in the textbooks, journals articles, reports and classroom teaching.
There is so much emphasis placed upon equating P = MC. The assumption that enables this is that all fixed costs become variable costs in the long-run. But the period of time that constitutes the long-run as opposed to the short-run is never specified, not even vaguely – which may not be surprising as time does not exist in neoclassical models. Unfortunately for economists, people in the real world have to run businesses that entail fixed costs that do not magically transform into variable costs in the “long-run”.
Then comes the blindingly obvious: how is price going to equate with marginal cost in the presence of intellectual property rights? Businesses with massive fixed costs need to increase their price over marginal cost but IPR allows this to occur in the extreme.
I suspect that if an economist were to develop an analysis aggregating the negative externalities imposed upon society by business in any one year, such private costs would outweigh private profits by a considerable factor. Yet in class it was barely discussed.
Another major market imperfection is advertising, marketing and public relations, most of which is clearly designed to misinform consumers – one only has to look at TV ads and billboards. Is the economics profession doing anything about this?
I eventually realized what was been promoted in the economics classroom was a double-standard: if business (especially big business) was defiling the market (IPR, negative externalities, information asymmetry, rent-seeking, oligopoly formation, etc) then it is considered minor, if brought up at all.
However, when labor and unions were perceived to be defiling the market (minimum wage, collective bargaining, unemployment benefits, etc) then this is a major market obstacle which must be immediately eliminated.
Even within the neoclassical framework there is much that can be done but economists are loath to do anything about the institutions they worship: firms (corporations). What Marxists are to the state, neoclassicals (and Austrians) are to firms. The center of religion and worship has moved from the public to private spheres of life.
June 14th, 2009 at 7:53 am
I don’t expect anything major out of students either ak until after the crisis really bites and their prospects of employment look grim anyway. But it has to start somewhere, sometime, and I’m glad to see “green shoots” of rebellion.
I do intend writing the book in that fashion. However I am not optimistic about it being so readily embraced–and certainly not by currently neoclassical economists. I’ll stick with the religious analogy there as to their behaviour; I expect a lot of those “Marxist” professors in Eastern Europe had used the ideology as a means to advancement rather than genuinely believing in it, so switching to neoclassicism after the fall of The Wall was no great problem for them. However, most neoclassical economists are more like 19th century Marxist revolutionaries in their attitudes towards neoclassical theory than they are like 20th century University economics “Marxist” apparatchiks.
June 14th, 2009 at 8:04 am
Hi Ben,
I don’t see it changing if the staff are just left to themselves. As I explained “Mad, bad, and dangerous to know” in a recent paper for the Real World Economic Review, academic neoclassical economists will see no connection at all between what they teach and the GFC–and Mankiw, McTaggart, Pomfret et al’s articles recently confirm this. They see the crisis as a reason to teach more neoclassical economics, not to challenge it.
So the real people to be persuaded are those that are open to it: students, and the business and labour communities. The former haven’t yet been indoctrinated, the latter are victims of the way the economy has been reshaped to fit the confines of a flawed theory of reality.
Once you’ve finished the MBA, consider getting a copy of Debunking Economics (the eBook being the cheapest and easiest option there) to put a hole through the crap you have been taught to date.
June 14th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Don’t get too carried away with P=MC as a definition of competition Philip,
As I explain in Chapter 4 of Debunking, it’s a nonsense definition: if the conditions of neoclassical economics applied (which they don’t), profit-maximising competitive firms would produce the same amount as a monopoly, and for the same price.
Technical details of the argument are available here (easy version) and here (hard version).
June 14th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
“There is a risk/return trade-off to opening the economy and liberalising the financial sect…………financial crisis, than the others.” (Pomfret)
Who can write this stuff. Any idiot can consume more than they earn if they have access to debt. Whhich is basically just bringing forward future spending, burning the future to benefit the present.
Continuing reliance on just GDP fugures and consumption CPI is a bit like running a company just on the cashflow statement and ignoring the P&L and balance sheet.
Oh yeah that cashflow looks good, then you examine the balance sheet …. whoops look at those debt figures = bankruptcy.
Plus the neo-clowns obesession with just retail CPI while ignoring capital goods is insane.
Again using the company anology: ok my raw materials costs are only rising slowly, good, but the cost of capital equipment is going through the roof, I’ll have to borrow more to pay for them. But I wont be able to generate the future extra income to pay the borrowings = bankruptcy again.
I’ve long maintained that this neo-tosh stuff is just an intellectual fig leaf used to cover up a full blown ‘class war’ that has attemted to return us to some imagined English 1880’s type of system, where the ‘gentlemen’ make money through land and investments .. and the rest of us tug our forelocks to our betters.
June 14th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Steve,
I do understand that P = MC is nonsense. What I wanted to point out is that even by neoclassical standards many firms in theory are not going to do that in the presence of IPR.
The economist Michael Perelman has done a lot of good work on this issue. He provides a great deal of historical evidence for this, primarily using the 19th railroad firms as an example of when too much competition and/or marginal cost pricing will bankrupt firms within an industry.
For instance, a railroad firm will have enormous fixed costs: tracks, stations, trains, etc. But the marginal cost (back then) was measured as per ton/mile. The marginal costs were tiny compared to what was need to cover the fixed costs.
I suspect marginal cost pricing to be the major problem behind airline bankruptcies, especially when neoclassical economists continually encourage more competition.
June 14th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
It is now obvious that this neoclassical garbage has led to National Ponzi schemes that have lasted much longer than the many individual Ponzi schemes which have come and gone over the last 30 years.
After all Australia has had to borrow (take “investments”) to pay interest (“dividends”) on foreign loans for around 30 years. It has also had to borrow (take new “investments”) to roll over foreign loans. And now as the abilty to roll over loans and borrow to pay interest is fading the coutry’s economy will go the way of any other Ponzi schemes.
Of course all Ponzi schemes give a short term illusion of prosperity and “stellar” growth as Mr. Pomfret claims for neoclassicism. Also and unfortunately all Ponzi schemes are eventually wiped out by a “Tsunamis”. (Marvellous how they all steal terms from science).
There is a difference however The Australian Ponzi schemme and the others are run by nations which have been very badly governed for 50 years. They have been contributed to involuntarily by the citizens of these nations.
The wealthy of these nations have benefitted and all will now suffer.
We need a new name for this class of national Ponzi scheme. May I suggest that following this vehement defence of neoclassical economics by Mr Pomfret the National versions should be called Pomfret Schemes.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:38 am
I read Warwick Smith’s paper that he distributed to the rest of his Intermediate Macroeconomics class at Melbourne University and I feel that he may have been a bit too personal in his criticisms of his lecturer Dr Freebairn. Even many of us here would agree with most of what he wrote, I think he would have served himself better by cutting back on criticism of Dr Freebairn and directing his criticism at the Faculty in general instead.
Steve, how would you feel if a student wrote a polemic that included personal criticism of you and distributed to all the students in your class?
June 15th, 2009 at 8:58 am
I agree that making personal references to a lecturer hurts the lecturer, and in “the best of all possible worlds”, this shouldn’t be done. But we’re not in such a world, and in similar circumstances I did exactly the same thing myself, in the notes I published about my negotiations with Professors Hogan and Simkin back in 1973.
I was also quite derogatory in the remarks I made about the main lecturer in microeconomics at the time, whose name I have completely forgotten, but whose nickname of “Mean Mr Mustard Man”–derived from both his personality and the mustard-coloured suit he wore to every lecture–lives with me to this day (I think his first name was Neil).
The personalisation problem arises when you have two people committed to opposing world views clashing with each other, and when one is in a position of power over the other. The dispute is invariably over something that the Believer won’t even contemplate challenging and the Protester rejects. Both parties infuriate the other–but the former is in a position to ignore the latter, which rankles.
And to the Protester, the Believer’s “actions”–simply ignoring him–are hurtful. So I can understand Warwick making the personal references, given the sense of personal frustration he would have felt.
I’m not going to give Warwick any personal advice in how to proceed here, but one option might be to highlight that the dispute is over substance and not personality by apologising for the personal components and asking for debate on the substance–which seems to have been recognised by the Head of Department there to some degree by the promise to establish a discussion list on the topic of the veracity of neoclassical theory.
There is also, to some degree, a need to personalise this. Take for example Pomfret’s reply to my critique of McTaggart’s post, in which he says amongst other things:
Good grief: the man has read nothing of the critiques of neoclassical economics that have been published since 1930. This is so common of neoclassical economists (and unfortunately Austrian and Marxist ones as well). I could throw a hundred pubished academic papers his way that point out the flaws in what he believes is a theory that has “moved on”–like for example Alan Kirman’s paper “The intrinsic limits of modern economic theory: the emperor has no clothes”, (Economic Journal, Vol. 99, 1989: s126-s139). He has ignored them and will continue to do so.
In some ways, it’s like the situation I found myself when I tried to get Optus to install a telephone line and internet access at my new house. The stuff-ups that were caused by Optus’s internal policies and “left hand don’t know what the right hand is doing” procedures meant that I ultimately found myself yelling at the poor sods on the telephone support lines (calling from my mobile phone of course because after six weeks they had failed to install a line, were billing me for one that I had asked to shut down, … you just don’t want to know).
Now of course it wasn’t the fault of those poor cogs in the wheel that Optus completely failed to give me a telephone line. But I hope my yelling at least got fed higher up Optus’s food chain to let someone know that maybe they should change some of their procedures.
Ditto economics and economists. Unless they feel some personal angst, they’re not likely to do anything to change–they have certainly shown the capacity to ignore fundamental critiques for over a century (and critiques of the moving feast of neoclassical belief, not merely the innocent errors of the 1870s). So a bit of personal heat, though painful, may do some good.
Incidentally, many years after I was rude to Warren Hogan, we became friends, partly out of meeting by accident and “letting bygones be bygones” and partly via a shared interest in the history of economic thought that I think has shifted Warren’s thinking on economics over time. Hopefully the same will one day apply for Warwick and Dr Freebairn.
June 16th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Yes Phillip, I will organise, buy wood, bring matches to your “witch hunt”!! I am a recipient of the ‘voodoo economics’ debated here! do not understand the ‘maths’ nor ‘models’ BUT do understand the ‘family misery’ index, i.e. unemployment!! poor government management (selling evertything in sight that belongs to me (tax payers)only to re buy it back!! (lucky me!!)OH the lack of ’social SECURITY’ (yes it is a mirage it’s called poverty!)Oh and I have the pension to look forward to one day Mr Economist OH I forgot it’s gone up to 67! shucks and bother!!
Fire anyone??
June 16th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
tommyt,
I shall endeavor to gather as many of the faithful as possible and engage in this witch hunt. My trusty scythe will prove to be rather useful.
On a serious note, I do wonder what the unrest will be like. Steve has mentioned a possible 20% – 25% unemployment rate, but if it is by the ABS definition, real unemployment will likely be much higher. Mass bankruptcies, foreclosures, falling wages, debt deflation, etc, will hurt many, many Australians.
It will be a very interesting period of time to experience. I hope that people will be able to organize to productive ends, such as democratizing capitalism, rather than digging a collective hole and listening to some racist political demagogue.
I’ve been reading about conditions on ground zero in the US, and it is not pleasant. The number of people needing food stamps and soup kitchens is rising, many can’t find work, the homeless are increasing while properties are empty, and so on. Thankfully in Australia social welfare is greater than that in the US but it will not help the mass unemployed.
As for the “government selling everything in sight”, government could have paid down the debt by taxing unearned monopoly rents rather than flogging off public assets. In fact, it may be possible to replace the income and business taxes by taxing unearned monopoly rents. The economist Michael Hudson has interesting ideas on this matter.
June 16th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Thanks Phillip, very nice of you!! I am afraid the ‘education’ of the ‘oz’ public (as steve has mentioned many times) is one of those improbable things! I have mentioned here many times that the ‘MM’ have too much ‘control’ (kylie stories; etc )I have spent many an argument with people trying valiantly to get them to ’see’ something different(about the economy and even stats that matter) BUT as Steve says they must be like ‘THOMAS’ I am afraid and they will “see’ when ‘IT’ hits the ‘wall’!!
Thanks again!
June 18th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Sorry, I couldn’t resist (and apologies to Monty Python).
Q. Are the students revolting?
A. Yes the students are revolting, yuck!
July 2nd, 2009 at 4:27 am
I’m a current student at Adelaide Uni hoping to strike up some debate with the students and our enthusiastic lecturer, Professor Christopher Findlay. It’s hard to know where to begin though, and how.
Warwick’s critical review certainly provides some inspiration but I am nowhere near as well read on it all as he apparently is. I was thinking about trying to make up some flyers that summarise some of the more obvious flaws (with references for further reading) but there are just SO MANY. I would really appreciate some ideas on how to start this debate?
The biggest problem is, as someone already said, most students just dont care. Going around the class in my first micro tutorial the lecturer had everyone explain why they wanted to do economics…theres no prizes for guessing that the reason was only ever a variation on money/good job…except for myself of course. Unfortunately my passionate monologue on the priveledged and powerful position of economists in shaping society probably just made everyone think I was a bit weird.
My theory is that, strangely enough, you are less likely to find students eager to engage in this debate in the economics/commerce department then in others. Most economics and business students want to be clones, it’s good for their job prospects and it feels oh so grown up to wear that suit to all your classes (I’m joking, theres only a few losers who do this). But I don’t expect many at all come into the course with any desire to be critical, mainly because, as I am finding, it takes a lot of extra work!
Others at uni like some of the political groups and environmental groups I expect (and in my experience are) more interested in the criticisms of neoclassical theory, but theres the problem…You need to know the absurd assupmtions and theories of neoclassical economics before u can study their failings. Trying to explain the faults of neoclassical economics to someone who hasn’t studied is difficult in large part because you have to explain neoclassical theory first and in the process it is easy for people to assume that you just don’t undestand it properly yourself or are warping it to fit your agenda etc…
so where to begin?….
To ak (off-topic):
Opposition to nulcear power has nothing to do with dogma, there are serious unresolved issues regarding nuclear waste, proliferation and safety but most important to me is that the nucelar cycle from mine to power plant to waste storage is highly carbon intensive. Some have suggested so much so that it almost negates any benefits. What reason is there for having nuclear power if it can’t halt greenhouse gas emissions?
Theres also the issue of water required and many other things that I cant think of at almost 3am. The real kicker is that if the kind of investment that would be required for nuclear power was instead put into energy saving strategies and renewable energies we wouldn’t need nuclear power….oh, and uranium is finite, radioactive waste isn’t, meaning our great-great-great-great-great granchildren will still be spending there ever more limited resources on looking after our mess.
I’m sure if you support nucelar power you will have some counter arguments, obviously what I wrote here isn’t very academic, but I’m just trying to demonstrate that current oppostion to nuclear power is founded on real and serious concerns and has nothing to do with 80’s ideology or dogma.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:17 am
I don’t think Steve wants a discussion about benefits of nuclear energy to dominate this blog however I would like to address some of your concerns:
1. Using Th232/U233 rather than U235 and U238/Pu239 might be a better idea
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200604/s1616391.htm
and we have a plenty of it
http://www.ga.gov.au/minerals/research/national/thorium/index.jsp
2. Proliferation happens because countries see benefits in having nukes which are rather obvious not because they have access to low-enriched fuel or reactor technology. Building a crude nuke is not such a big problem.
http://www.nci.org/k-m/makeab.htm
3. Storing nuclear waste is more a political “not in my backyard” problem than a technical one as a substantial amount of waste has already been produced and we haven’t heard about serious practical issues.
4. Yes we have to burn coal or oil to mine uranium and enrich U235 but the total amount of CO2 released is substantially smaller.
5. The number of people who died mining coal in Poland, Ukraine and China exceeds the number of people who died in Chernobyl or other nuclear reactor incidents/disasters. New reactors are safer than the infamous RBMK design.
to be continued…
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:44 pm
It’s tempting but I won’t contiue the nuclear debate here. I was just trying to say that there are very good reasons for opposing nuclear power that have nothing to do with 80’s ideology and dogma. I’ll just say that personally I would be ecstatic if nuclear power could be shown to be the answer to all our problems. Unfortunately it is a long way from being so. There’s some interesting stuff here: http://www.foe.org.au/anti-nuclear/issues/nfc/
July 2nd, 2009 at 1:56 pm
I was meaning to ask before, does anyone know how Warwick’s “critical review” was received by the students? Did it lead to the large scale burning of everyone’s toxic textbooks? What impact did it have on the faculty? Or was it just ignored like so many before?
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:52 pm
rasta,
I don’t consider nuclear energy as the solution of the climate challenge. I simply don’t subscribe to the view that it cannot be a part of the solution. Maybe it can just generate 10% of the energy we need in Australia? But condemning it just because it is mad and bad smells like another kind of religion to me.
I have no problem in continuing the debate but I agree that this is not the right place.
If you wish I can move to the place you think is more appropriate provided that my views will not be censored.
I had a quick look at the Friends of the Earth site. Unfortunately the attitude they have I think is simplistic.
Just take the following argument they are using against nuclear power:
“The weight of scientific opinion holds that there is no threshold below which ionising radiation poses no risk.”
However there is no consensus and the scienticfic opionion which holds for FOE may be just an unproven theory:
“Whether or not there is a threshold (i.e. “safe”) level of radiation is a controversial subject. Because this topic has yet to be settled scientifically, regulators have decided to take a conservative approach and assume that there is no such thing as a 100% safe level of radiation. Rather, in the case of low-level radiation it is assumed that the risk of developing an adverse effect (such as a cancer) scales proportionately with the amount of radiation. In other words, doubling the amount of radiation is assumed to lead to a doubling in the chance of developing an effect.”
http://www.environment.gov.au/ssd/faqs/radiation.html
So the regulation is based on an assumption rather than consensus. I consider the following article to be more balanced as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis
And even if
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no-threshold_model
holds water the number of people contracting cancer due to building nuclear power plants in our country is neglectable. How many people will get 100 mSv dicussed there?
Instead of saying – “I would accept the nuclear power generation provided that issue A is addressed and issue B mitigated (and for now the issues are not addressed so I am against)” – the Friends of Earth say NO and then desperately try to look for arguments.
This is what I call dogmatism.
This is also the reason why despite the fact that I may agree with 95% of what the Green movement stands for I will never vote for the Greens nor donate a single cent to them.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:07 pm
“This is also the reason why despite the fact that I may agree with 95% of what the Green movement stands for I will never vote for the Greens nor donate a single cent to them.”
wow, that seems like a pretty irrational position to take. How much do you agree with the party you do vote for? I vote for the greens and I’m pretty confident I would agree with them less than 95% of the time. I would have thought that if you agree to such a high degree with the green movement that you might consider it worth your time to try and raise the discussion from within instead of just writing them off altogether. It could be considered analogous to what we are trying to do in our economics departments I think.
May I ask, are you open to the possibility that nuclear power should not be a part of the solution? You don’t appear to be, and if thats the case I would argue that your position is as much based on dogma or ideology as the anti-nuclear position you portray.
I’m involved with the Young Greens and I can tell you that with a number of members studying sustainable energy engineering (with the pro-nuclear Barry Brook) there has been quite a bit of debate amongst ourselves at least, and continues to be.
My point is that there are serious concerns about nuclear power that are yet to be allayed, and there is the potential for the costs to far outweigh the benefits in the long run. Condemning it because it is mad and bad sounds pretty logical to me. I don’t know what other reasons you’d have to condemn anything.
p.s. I’d still love some suggestions about the economics stuff, thats why I’m here after all
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:26 pm
I am pretty open to the possibility that the nuclear energy is not the solution for the next 50-100 years for Australia provided that carbon dioxide sequestration works on an industrial scale (what I doubt). Nuclear power may be good for some countries but we don’t need to bother if we can produce enough energy without screwing ourselves up.
Also if for example somebody invents cheap organic solar panels and cheap energy storage – why not? But this is a big “if”. Otherwise nuclear technology is available right here and right now however to be safe it has to be expensive.
So back to economics – there is no escape…
Obviously I agree that conserving energy is an obvious solution but going back to the dark ages is not an option. (By the way – what do you think about personal carbon trading?
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/climatechange/uk/individual/carbontrading/ )
Regarding my voting preferences I think that pure idealists screwed up enough in the country where I was born (and in the neighbourhood – Europe) that’s why I have to vote for the pragmatists even if they are a bit not fresh (the Labor).
July 3rd, 2009 at 8:53 am
Let me clarify something – the fact that I share the most of the values with people belonging to The Greens doesn’t mean that I agree with some of the naive policies
http://greens.org.au/node/787
and the way members of the movement understand (or rather don’t understand) the political process.
I am simply against faith-based politics. I think that joining green forums or the party is pointless as I believe that wouldn’t make any difference.
http://www.physorg.com/news165643839.html
I would be extremely happy to confront some of the views on an external forum though because there is no easy escape route if somebody is pinned down by arguments.
The best example of how The Greens in Europe screwed up on the climate change front is the policy of closing nuclear reactors promoted by the Senior Fig Leaf For Foreign Affairs Joshka Fisher serving under Gasprom’s Chancellor Schroder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schroder
“Democrat Tom Lantos, chairman of the United States House Committee on Foreign Affairs, likened Schröder to a “political prostitute” for his recent behaviour.”
They managed to increase the dependency on the Russian gas and brown coal-fired plants but got rid of the reactors. Well done comrade Shredder. Your support comrade Fisher should also be commanded.
By the way they both were the greatest “friends” of Poland delaying joining the EU by several years.
Do you think that The Greens in Australia are less naive? The roots of the anti-nuclear attitude are in the political struggles of 1970-80-ties (when I was locked up on the other side on the Iron Curtain). Then the total misunderstanding of the Chernobyl disaster played a predominant role in shaping the policies.
The current economical crisis is an effect of applying the faith-based neoclassical economics to the reality. It cannot be solved by another faith-based system.