Before the Pool Room, a quick comment on Australia’s recent 0.4% growth in GDP in the first quarter of 2009–largely due to a surprise growth in net exports–and the sequel the next day of a surprise trade deficit.
Briefly, the “textbook” definition of GDP is:
GDP = C+I+G+X-M
“GDP equals Consumption plus Investment plus Government spending plus eXports minus iMports”
M fell by 9 billion, X (more on this below) fell by 3 billion, so there was a +6 billion turnaround in the “net exports contribution to GDP” (as it’s known).
Now for a healthily growing economy, all 5 factors (C,I, G, X, and M) would be increasing–including M, since lots of the C+I+G are spent purchasing them. But suddenly spending on imports has dropped $9 billion in a quarter–that’s of the order of 2% of GDP. That implies that spending has dropped, not risen. This is not what I call a sustainable “growth” pattern.
Secondly, the increase in the volume of exports that was spruiked when the GDP figures came out was not all that it seemed. Gerard Minack of Morgan Stanley claimed that there had been a change in ABS methodology which led to the volume of commodity exports bring substantially overstated. That claim has now been rejected by the ABS, but as discussion of this on Peter Martin’s site indicates, there are still very large problems with estimating the volume of exports given the extreme volatility in commodity prices and exchange rates.
Part of the ABS’s reply to Gerard’s article in The Age implies that this unreliability of export volume calculations will continue for some time:
The volume measures of exports of bulk commodities … are calculated by multiplying the quantities of such exports, as reported by exporters in tonnes or some other unit of quantity, by the average price of such commodities, as reported by exporters in the reference year. For the March quarter 2009 volume estimates, 2006-07 is the reference year for prices. The reference year prices are updated annually, in the September quarter accounts. For example, the September quarter 2009 accounts will use average prices reported in 2007-08.
So the estimates for the September quarter GDP will be based on prices as reported in 2007-08… Given the volatility of prices in the last four years–a huge increase in our export prices followed by the recent sharp decline that will doubtless continue for some time–calculations of the real value of exports will be extremely inaccurate for some time to come.
Given all that, I expect that the exported tonnage of commodity exports probably fell significantly across the board in the most recent quarter, and the recorded increase was an anomaly.
This explains the “huh” factor of the very next day’s announcement that we had gone from a substantial trade surplus to a deficit. How does that tally with the “increase” in exports in the GDP figures? The trade deficit is the dollar value of exports minus the dollar value of imports–there is no “price deflating” going on.
So putting this all together (looking just at C+I+G+X components), the probable outcome for real output in the last quarter was a fall of the order of 1-2%, or an annual rate of decline of 5-8%.
Note also that there are severe problems with US data, though not caused by its export prices but the practise followed by the BLS of modifying unemployment numbers using its “Birth and Death” model for changes in the small business sector in the USA that are too small to be captured by surveys. This adjustment accounts for 220,000 of the jobs created in the USA in the month of May–when aggregate jobs actually fell by 345,000. So without the adjustment–a statistical procedure to account for a weakness in the survey method used to estimate unemployment–recorded unemployment would have increased by 565,000. This would have turned a “surprisingly good” decline in jobs number there into a “depressingly familiar one”. See Mish’s site for an excellent discussion of this.
PS Gerard has apologised for his error–as I noted to a discussant here when the ABS’s letter was brought to my attention, it’s very rare for him to make such a mistake, and he has since duly apologised in his Down Under Daily.Here’s what he had to say:
Now over to Evan’s selection for The Pool Room this week…
THE POOL ROOM – Week Ending Friday 5th June, 2009
AUSTRALIAN-RELATED LINKS:
Australia Dodges Recession Bullet, ABC, 3 Jun
Irrespective of whether Australia is in recession or otherwise, it’s a good time to remember that official GDP growth ignores debt growth. So, yes, maybe Australia “grew” by 0.4% in Q1 so long as you ignore the unprecedented government spending, including cash handouts before Christmas. If you or I go mad with a credit card, buy a flash car courtesy of EZY-Finance Ltd and take out a home equity loan (remember those?) the only thing that grows is our debt burden. It appears to be different for countries who borrow and – wallah! – their GDP has grown and it’s time for the PM to stand on his imaginary aircraft carrier and call a press conference. Gerard Minack also notes that the ABS spruiked the figures.
Trade Slump Undermines GDP Optimism, ABC, 4 Jun
The bullets are starting to hit the mark: “Official figures show a sharp slump in exports has dragged the $2.3 billion trade surplus in March to a deficit of $91 million in April… imports fell 2 per cent to $21.77 billion in April, with capital goods, such as trucks and machinery, down 1 per cent while consumer goods decreased 1 per cent.” Export prices don’t look like improving as today “Gloucester Coal has agreed to sell coking coal to its Japanese customers in the coming Japanese financial year at prices more than 60 per cent lower than the previous period.”
Ore to China Not Driven By Demand, The Australian, 4 Jun
Maybe China won’t be our great red hope after all. “The record iron ore exports to China that helped Australia dodge a recession have been driven by speculation and anticipation of demand by steelmakers that has not yet eventuated.” Ring any alarm bells (hint: oil prices last July)? And in another article “China’s government said unemployment is worsening, a quick rebound in trade is becoming less likely, and the nation is yet to feel the full effects of a global slump”. Michael J Panzer chips in with some more holes in the China recovery story. Contributed by Macca.
House Prices NOT Tipped To Rise, Michael Pascoe, SMH, 3 Jun
A bona-fide brickbat at last, an article that should produce as much laughter as Geithner in front of an audience of Chinese students. Pascoe lauds the economic modelling might of the RBA, APRA and Macquarie Bank because their computers are bigger! Yes, that’s the same mob whose intellectual fire-power left them worried about an over-heating economy about 45 minutes before the onslaught of the “worst financial crisis since the Great Depression”.
Families Prosper From Tariff Cuts, Mark Davis, SMH, 1 Jun
“The study by the Centre for International Economics also predicts that if governments around the world succumb to protectionist pressures and increase tariffs on imports to preserve local jobs they will only make the global recession worse.” So the de-industrialisation of Australia is set to continue. Why produce physical goods when you can rely on global wholesale finance to fund the debt bubble, “hot money” inflows to keep the currency and stock markets strong and the selling off of primary industry to foot (some of) the bill? Both the Libs and Labor support this view.
Credit Law Revamp Could Cost Jobs, Glenn Milne, Sunday Telegraph, 31 May
“The key change is that the onus for proving credit worthiness will shift from the customer to the lender. So if you sign up to a credit deal which you clearly cannot afford it will be the bank, or retailer that has to repay the loan.” An important and under-reported story spun as a threat to jobs by Harvey Norman, PwC and the sub-editors. Apparently the large institutional interests want to protect small businesses and tradesman from a new law – now there’s a red flag if ever I’ve seen one. In bygone days it was considered self-evident that creditors needed to share responsibility with debtors for debt issuance. Not anymore.
Australia’s Foreign Debt – Data & Trends, Tony Kryger, Australian Parliamentary Library, 7 May
Contributed by blog member BullTurnedBear. Extremely useful research paper examining Australian debt. Key figures: total gross foreign debt in 2008 was $1.07 trillion ($600b net) having risen from only $8b in 1976; over the same period foreign debt has skyrocketed from 9% to 95% of GDP; 74% is owned by financial institutions; the largest creditors are the UK (23%) and the US (22%; 39% is denominated in AUD, 31.5% in USD, and 13% in euro; 48% has a term less than 1 year, including 37% which is due within 90 days.
Big Is Better For Super, SMH, 4 Jun
More delusional tub-thumping by the Ponzi crowd. “[Deloittes] said the better performance from bigger funds could be attributable to better education of members, which allows them to manage their holdings more wisely. “ You couldn’t make it up. One fact is beyond question: “Big Is Better” for commissions.
GLOBAL ECONOMY / BANKING / FINANCE:
Consumer Spending Falls As Americans Boost Savings, Bloomberg, 1 Jun
Deflation watch. Despite those green shoots this show is running right on script. The US savings rate was negative at the height of the housing bubble. Now it’s shot up to 5.7% – at the expense of marginal consumption and short-term GDP. Now some May spending data has emerged and, yes, same-store consumer spending fell 4.6%.
From the Sub-prime To the Terragenous, Land Values Research Group, Gavin R. Putland, 1 Jun
Excellent research paper providing strong evidence that a downturn in the domestic property market is a leading indicator of recessions. Contains useful housing bubble and recession data for 32 countries.
Mortgage Meltdown, More Pain To Come, Mike Shedlock, 31 May
If these graphs don’t frighten you, nothing will. Check out the sub-prime resets, Alt-A resets (“there are $2.4 trillion of Alt-A resets and they are mostly ahead of us”); and option ARMs. Note that “Wall St mortgages are 15% of all mortgages, but are 51% of all highly delinquent mortgages.”
More Prime Foreclosures, More Re-defaults, Mike Shedlock, 31 May
More of the same. “The problem is not on that “front-end” ratio [mortgage repayments], but on the back end, which is all of the borrowers other debt (credit cards, car loans, student loans, etc.)… other debt is so high that most of today’s troubled borrowers cannot afford any loan payment at all, even at a very modest debt-to-income ratio.”
Pending Home Sales: Watch the Birdie, Denninger, 2 Jun
In his inimitable style, Denninger calculates the impact of rising retail mortgage rates on the US housing market. Now contrast this to an article in the SMH this week: “April Pending Home Re-sales Surge 6.7% In US”. Zero Hedge thinks that the future of the National Association of Realtors must be really, really, really bad. And on 4 Jun Bloomberg reports that US mortgage rates jump to highest since December, to 5.29 from 4.91 percent a week earlier.
The Housing Rebound As Traded By An Insider, Zero Hedge, 3 Jun
“… [homebuilder Toll Brothers’s] chairman decided to provide some optimism during his Q1 2009 earnings call and then proceeded to dump stock not once, not twice, but seven times in a span of one month.” It’s Enron all over again.
US Auto Sales: Worse and Worser, The Big Picture, 3 Jun
Look at the data in the link above and then look at this headline courtesy of the SMH: “US Car Sales Stabilise”. It contains such gems as: “Total US car sales were down 33.7 per cent at 925,824 vehicles compared with May 2008… but carmakers took comfort in the fact that the seasonally adjusted annualised rate of 9.91 million was the industry’s best performance this year.” Similar delusions led to the demise of the US car industry.
The Big Mess [GM], Daily Show, 3 Jun
Another brilliant must-see segment from Jon Stewart at Comedy Central. Much more informative than Bloomberg. If you missed it the first time, also watch Stewart take out Jim Cramer – part one, two, three (hit “replay” if the video doesn’t work the first time).
Obama Saving GM Needed Dealmaker Team to Break It In Bankruptcy, Bloomberg, 1 Jun
Possibly the worst case of MSM propaganda in the history of the GFC. Obama calls in his Wall St donors to restructure GM, as they were so awesomely successful in their day jobs. “We were told from the start to impose the same commercial rigor on this restructuring as we would have done in the private sector.” “The tools Obama was asking the task force leaders to use were honed over their years of dealmaking.” “For these kinds of restructurings, it makes perfect sense to bring in the people who know how to execute.” Don’t read before eating. More from GM.
Spanish Slump Stokes Debt Dilemma as Jobless Rises, Bloomberg, 3 Jun
Deflation watch with paella. “As Spain sinks deeper into recession and the jobless rate heads for 20 percent, the highest in Europe, employers are telling workers to accept wage cuts if they want to stay competitive. That’s making it harder for households to tackle a debt load built up during the country’s economic boom and equivalent to 18,000 euros per person.”
U.K. House Prices Unexpectedly Jumped by 2.6% in May, Bloomberg 4 Jun
Statistics 101: when it suits your argument, adjust for seasonal trends; when it doesn’t (like now), ignore seasonal trends like the usual jump in house sales coming into the summer months. Alternative headline: “In the three months through May, prices fell 16.3 percent from a year earlier.”
Oil Jumps on Bullish Goldman Forecast, Dow Jones, 5 June
Banking 101: get bailed out by your ex-CEO sitting in Washington; help yourself to $12.8 trillion; collude with your mates and use the bailout money to hire tankers to store oil while the price is cheap and to reduce supply; then have your research department talk up the price; sell later; enjoy bonus. It also helps to buy influence.
Fall In Private Borrowing, Brad Setser (CFR), 2 Jun
US consumers are trading consumption for saving (up from negative in 2004 to over 5% now). The US government has stepped in to keep the Ponzi scheme from collapsing. This supports Doug Noland’s view that the US government is trying to replace the housing bubble with the Government Finance Bubble.
Profile of a Collapsing Bubble, sourced from Jesse’s Americain Cafe, 4 Jun
Looks like we’re at “Return to normal”. Good time to pile back into the ASX. The Australian contained a sensible discussion on stock markets this week (no, not from Charlie Aitken).
Naked Short Selling Redefining Systematic Risk, Deep Capture, 6 May
Another fantastic video (under 20 mins) from deepcapture.com. In places like India they pay off politicians with paper bags full of cash (literally). In the west they do it this way (the article is from 1994 and will only make sense after watching the video and understanding the role of REFCO.)
Jobless Benefit Rolls Fall, Initial Claims Dip, Yahoo Finance, 4 Jun
More green shoots psychology. Forget the GM bankruptcy and the impact on one of America’s last remaining productive industries because “the tally of first-time claims for jobless benefits declined to a seasonally adjusted 621,000 from the previous week’s revised figure of 625,000.” The SMH even inserted claims of productivity improvements into their headline. Watch out for next month when the May jobless figure is “adjusted” upwards, just like every other month – here’s an example.
The Chicago School Is Eclipsed, The Week, Brad Delong, 29 May
Excellent article. “Richard Posner, leader of the Chicago School of Economics, uses his new book, “A Failure of Capitalism,” to try to rescue the Chicago School’s foundational assumption that the economy behaves as if all economic agents and actors are rational, far-sighted calculators. In some sense, Posner must try. For without this underlying assumption, the clock strikes midnight, the stately brougham of Chicago economic theory turns into a pumpkin, and the analytical horses that have pulled it so far over the past half- century turn back into little white mice.” “The litany of financial lunacy is longer than even the Eastern Orthodox litany of the saints.”
Roubini On the Failure To Predict Financial Failure, RGE Monitor, 1 Jun
An article and a 51 minute video delivered in a “wonky and academic and high brow” style. Roubini claims that the GFC was predictable, unlike some central bankers. Contributed by Bruce.
Holes In the China Recovery Story, Huffington Post, Michael J. Panzer, 3 Jun
Is the China recovery story all it’s cracked up to be? No. In another article “China’s government said unemployment is worsening, a quick rebound in trade is becoming less likely, and the nation is yet to feel the full effects of a global slump”.
China To Increase Subsidy For Auto, Home Appliance Replacements, China View, 19 May
“China will increase subsidies for consumers who sell their cars and home appliances in order to purchase new ones, in an effort to spur domestic consumption.” When China pumps up domestic consumption the money is used to buy Chinese goods. Lucky for China. When Australia pumps up domestic consumption the money is used to buy Chinese goods. Lucky for China.
Bernanke Sees End of Recession Soon, Yahoo Finance, 3 Jun
“In testimony to Congress, Bernanke sounded more confident that the U.S. recession would end this year than he had just one month ago, and he said the risk of a dangerous downward spiral in prices had receded.” It’s a shame there are no Chinese students in Congress. Does the end of the recession imply that there will be less than one in nine Americans on food stamps?
Fiscal Options For the UK, Willem Buiter, FT, 2 Jun
Long, academic article featuring the impact of long-running deficits on the solvency of the UK. Buiter fears that using inflation to remain solvent is a possibility. Contributed by Greg.
Ukraine Economy Down 21 Percent In Q1, Boston.com, 4 Jun
“The legislature’s Audit Chamber said such a severe economic downturn calls for amending this year’s budget, which is based on a government forecast of 0.4 percent growth.” So they were close enough I guess. The International Monetary Fund forecasts an 8 percent contraction for the entire year. Contributed by ak.
The States vs Federal Schism, Zero Hedge, 4 Jun
“By now if you don’t know the trajectory that the federal government has set on with monetizing virtually anything and everything, you must be living somewhere deep in the green shoot forest with only enough WiFi/cable coverage to get CNBC.” ”The report confirms all fears about just how gruesome the fiscal catastrophe is at the state level.”
GEOPOLITICAL:
Geithner Tells China Its Dollar Assets Are Safe, Reuters, 1 Jun
Zeitgeist watch. Geithner’s ridiculous comment drew loud laughter from the student audience. It’s the 20 year anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre too… looks like the students have selected a State-sanctioned target this time, rather than the State itself. Shame no one threw a shoe at him. Speaking of opposing the State, Bloomberg originally reported this story but later pulled it. Click here to watch a very frank discussion on China, US treasuries and the USD (note the hosts trying to close down controversial debate).
Latvian Debt Crisis Shakes Eastern Europe, Telegraph (UK), 3 Jun
“Latvia has become the first EU country to face a sovereign debt crisis after failing to sell a single bill at a treasury auction worth $100m (£61m), prompting fears of a fresh storm in Eastern Europe as capital flight tests currency pegs.” Looks like a repeat of the 1997 crisis in SE Asia. Soon it will be time for the big money to come in and pick up the pieces at pennies on the dollar – standard operating procedure after they’ve stacked the country with debt and shorted the currency. More from Zero Hedge (check out the graph!).
Lessons From Ecuador’s Bond Default, Felix Salman, 29 May
A small nation beats the kleptocracy for once.
Getting Real About Gold, The Australian, 3 Jun
“America’s third largest life insurer, Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance, has been in existence for 152 years. It has never in all those years bought gold – until now.” Good news for the gold bugs who, among other things, believe that central banks are manipulating gold downwards to encourage continued faith in fiat currencies.
Merkel Lashes Out at Central Banks, BusinessWeek,
Trouble within the ranks of the elite. “What other central banks have been doing must stop now. I am very sceptical about the extent of the Fed’s actions and the way the Bank of England has carved its own little line in Europe.” Off-the-radar parts of the blogosphere have long talked about the divisions between the Anglo Saxon countries on the one hand and the central Eurozone, China and Russia on the other. Contributed by Christopher.






June 5th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
“The study by the Centre for International Economics also predicts that if governments around the world succumb to protectionist pressures and increase tariffs on imports to preserve local jobs they will only make the global recession worse.”
Oddly enough, it appears that only tariffs and quotas count as “protectionism”. Strange that…
June 5th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Late entry?
Mish Shedlock’s talk at Google …
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/06/mish-speaks-at-google.html
June 6th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Hi all,
This has been a very interesting week for global markets. To most observers, the action would appear very benign. But, several trends appear to be reversing all at the same time. I think the combination of these reversals scream deflation. Let me explain.
I have been harping for a few weeks now that the currency trends appear to be very mature and ripe for a reversal. The Pound has be rising exponentially. That has now reversed. The bearish sentiment towards the $US was reading at an extreme level. Also bullishness towards the Euro and $A was reading at an extreme level. All those relationships are either in the very early stage of a trend reversal or should turn after one more push.
Precious metals (PMs) have been rallying hard for the last 6 weeks. In Elliot wave terms they have rallied in 3 waves (which means the rally is counter to the underlying trend). Silver has now put in a weekly reversal top. Technical sell signal.
The third piece of the puzzle is US stocks. Sentiment to stocks is reading extreme levels again (88% bulls DSI) and the market made a new recovery (Elliot 5th wave) high. Waves 1 and 3 make new highs too, but the wave 5 high signals the turn.
The trend changes are so new and may easily be discredited next week with a push higher. Either way all those trends appear to be lining up.
The lining up of these relationships is the really interesting and rare thing. Why do I say deflation?
If inflation was coming we would expect stocks and PMs to be embarking on a bullish trend (not ending one). We would also expect the $US to be turning down (not ending a bearish trend). Also many believe that as an economy worsens, a country’s currency will depreciate. The opposite may be happening in America.
I know this is highly speculative and may be discredited next week. But if over the next few weeks you see stocks sell off, the $US start rallying and PMs sell off, think deflation not inflation.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:37 am
BTB, we are not expecting a deflationary depression but instead a hyperinflationary depression, two very diffrent animals.You are confusing bubble inflation with hyperinflation which is a currency event not an economic event.A loss of confidence in a currency $USD will trigger hyperinflation with high interest rates, look at Iceland as an example.Ask the people of Iceland how they would have loved to own gold instead of a paper currency.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:03 am
Rarely have I seen something that is so funny and sad at the same time. Funnily enough Jon Stewart makes probably the most important point: an economy where people make money from doing nothing useful is an inherently bad economy. I have a Chinese friend who has discovered the wonders of democracy “Why shouldn’t people vote for the government which gives them the most money?”. It used to be just tax cuts or employment in the public service, now it includes keeping your house price high.
“This supports Doug Noland’s view that the US government is trying to replace the housing bubble with the Government Finance Bubble.”. We might be ahead of the Americans.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Hi Elliotwave,
Who are we?
June 6th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Analayses of the U.S May Non Farm Payrolls data;
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/06/jobs-contract-17th-straight-month.html
http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/may-employment-report-not-believable/20102#comment-38515
Note the U6 comments on Shedlock’s article;
“Grim Statistics
The official unemployment rate is 9.4% and rising sharply. However, if you start counting all the people that want a job but gave up, all the people with part-time jobs that want a full-time job, all the people who dropped off the unemployment rolls because their unemployment benefits ran out, etc., you get a closer picture of what the unemployment rate is. That number is in the last row labeled U-6.
It reflects how unemployment feels to the average Joe on the street. U-6 is 16.4%. Both U-6 and U-3 (the so called “official” unemployment number) are poised to rise further.
Looking ahead, I expect the service sector to continue to weaken. Mall vacancy rates are rising and a huge contraction in commercial real estate is finally started. There is no driver for jobs and states in forced cutback mode are making matters far worse.
Unemployment is likely to continue rising until sometime in 2010.
Depression Level Statistics
I consider these job losses to be depression level totals. Admittedly conditions are not as bad as the great depression, but this is certainly no ordinary recession by any economic measure including lending, housing, bank failures, jobs, the stock market, commodity prices, treasury yields etc.”
As usual, it’s the stats (and the small print in them) that do the talking. The rest is noise.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:27 am
You might need to find another way to massage the GDP results: http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2009/06/abs-nails-new-urban-myth.html
“The ABS methodology for compiling the volume estimates of bulk commodity exports has been in place for many decades, is very well documented on the ABS website, and well understood by most analysts. In 1997 the ABS moved to update the historic reference year from once every 5 years or so, to once every year — apart from this the methodology has been essentially unchanged.
The ABS has tried, without success, to contact Mr Minack about the erroneous claims in his article. If Mr Minack had bothered to contact the ABS to gain an understanding of the relevant macro-economic statistics methodology, your readers may have been spared the misleading reporting that appeared in The Age.”
June 6th, 2009 at 11:50 am
And therefore, I it any wonder………?
“http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aQIewec5NTh4
NewsBloomberg Vincent Del GiudiceJun 05, 2009
Consumer Credit in U.S. Falls Second-Most on Record
June 6th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Interesting. OK, I’ll check the source and Gerard on this one. I generally find Gerard to be extremely accurate on this front, so if there’s been a slip-up here then it’s an aberration. He is currently in Mumbai right now too, which might explain why the ABS has found it hard to contact him.
The main point remains though that the positive result was due to a huge fall in imports. That is not the sign of an economy that has avoided a recession, so much as one that is falling into one.
June 6th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
I’ve just read that Peter Martin blog entry and the discussion. It does seem that Gerard got that part of the methodology wrong, but as the discussion points out the extreme volatility in export prices and the currency, combined with a slow methodology for updating the price index that is used to aggregate volume data, means that the figures for the volume of our exports are now very unreliable. Several quarters data, if not a full year’s, will be needed to identify a clear trend, and the level recorded in the most recent GDP reports could be a major statistical anomaly.
June 6th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
MACCA,
On Lativa (Eastern Europe)
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/aa629880-5068-11de-9530-00144feabdc0.html
This post is also good – it home prices in variuos exotic countries:
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2009/06/02/56497/waiting-for-latvia-to-devalue/
However:
The size of Lativan economy is tiny (total GDP could be about USD40bln). Sweden is also a small country. If the crisis there spins out of control EU can easily intervene and put the fire down.
I don’t think this can spark another major global instability.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Hi again Elliotwave,
You mentioned that “we are expecting a hyperinflationary depression”.
I’d still love to know who “we” are?
Do you claim that based on a long term $US wave count or an economic theory? If it’s based on a count, can I see it? I’d love to.
Also, you must be an American and solely talking about a US based Hyperinflationary depression. I say this because of the relativity of currencies. A $US collapse would imply say Euro strength (and a deflationary depression in Europe) or say $A strength (and deflation here).
Or are you saying that all currencies can fall together and hyperinflation will coexist everywhere?
June 6th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
The world financial system is heading for a planetary weimar experience just as bad as we have seen in Zimbabwe.
What Prechter fails to understand is that the 10 trillion dollars that the FED has given to the banks is gone, it was distributed to the counterparties of the failed OTC derivaties.It was stolen and is not sitting in a bank not being lent out.So that money is in the system at a time when business conditions are at their very worse.
Anyone who does not own any gold is in for a very severe shock come the end of this year and into early 2010.Hyperinflation will come to be and it will hit so quickly that people will not know what has hit them.
I will remind all the people on this forum when the time comes that gold hits $US1300 in the fourt quarter of this year.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Indeed it does produce confusing and misleading results when we attempt to pack the entire economic activity of a nation into a single GDP figure. In this particular case, I would say that reducing imports has been a good thing for Australia, because most of this is just consumers tightening the belts and making their existing goods last a bit longer, rather than buying new stuff that they don’t really need.
We can’t expect long term progress to continue in the same way, but as a short term adjustment it’s healthy IMHO. We have been fortunate that China saw tangible value in stockpiling minerals which is where most of our export bonus has come from, also food is becoming more scarce on a worldwide basis and we have had a bit of a wet year so that should also get us past the immediate crisis.
I think it is also fair to say that the majority of this so called “global” crisis is more accurately described as an American crisis that spills into the global economy. Australia’s profitable exports of food, minerals and tourism are not tightly tied to the US market, and our banking system has done a reasonably good job of separating itself from the US banks. Sure we aren’t entirely isolated but I wouldn’t worry too much.
The US dollar keeps trying to fall, and gold is flowing out of the USA keeping their dollar afloat. Difficult to say how long this gold will continue flowing out of the USA because there is so much downward pressure on the US dollar right now that it will take a miracle to keep it afloat. On the other hand, the Australian dollar is amazingly healthy, which I’m quite surprised at.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
hi elliotwave, anyone
when are you expecting the US dollar to crash? and what will cause it?
by my reckoning , we are going to have to wait a while, its going to be measured in years if not a decade or so.
when foreigners own 20 trillion or so of US financial and non financial assetts, they are not going to commit financial suicide by dumping the dollar.
they are going to be guano ing in their pants and they will wait and see how things turn out in the US.
actually if anyone is curious, their is case to be made for the connection between the latin american guano trade and the advent of US expanionism. but its probably a topic for another blog entry.
when we live under the US dollar standard, the US can probably get away with creating and exporting an insane amount of US dollars before anyone calls them on it.
also i think the whole viability of the US dollar standard is dependent upon US geo political fortunes. i think it will be a whole series of foreign policy mis calculations that is eventually going to bring all of this undone, and we have a full blown currency crisis on our hands.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
hi elliotwave,
we were in between posts, so i didnt pick on your last entry,
just cant see the dollar collapsing end of this year.
in fact when this share market rally ends , the dollar is going up for the forceable future.
this would put downward presure on the currency value of gold, but it would likely be counteracted by increase demand due to shares heading south for the winter. so like the dollar , gold will go up as well.
allthough i will have a knife and fork ready if i end up with egg all over my face.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
hi elliotwave,
The problem for the Icelanders is they didn’t really have any money. If significant numbers had tried converting their kroner (?) into gold they would have quickly found that out when the currency collapsed.
Anyway gold is just another bubble. Valued far more than its intrinsic value due to speculation it will eventually fall in price.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:39 am
Hi Elliotwave,
As I said, do you have a wave count to support the crashing of the $US?
Are you talking hyperinflation in Australia or the US or both. I repeat if all the world’s currencies collapse, surely all countries can’t have hyperinflation together.
I count the $A ready for a fall and the $US ready for a rally. I would love to see your wave count.
Furthermore, don’t forget all the 100s of trillions of debt and derivatives that are written in $US. The inevitable debt deflation should act to increase the value of the few remaining $US. As the total money supply (including credit money) shrinks, its buying power will increase.
Is that to simplistic? Show me how the mechanism of your theory works? I am very interested.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:45 am
“The problem for the Icelanders is they didn’t really have any money”
And that is different to the US in what way?
I see the Australian is talking up US jobs figures. Funny how sensorship works these days cause they failed to mention this.
http://norris.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/long-term-unemployment-rate-hits-record/?hp
Oh, and this is the way unemployment figures used to be calculated back when the Great Depression calculated stats.
June 7th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Ken
how many people do you know actually own physical Gold and Silver?
June 7th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Steve,
Don’t make the mistake (that many opundits do) of adding the birth/death numbers to the nfp numbers, the B/D adjustment is a NOT seasonally adjusted, the headline nfp number is seasonally adjusted. Adding the two together does not make any sense and it is simply poor reporting and bad analysis.
June 7th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Thanks fundana,
Point taken. I am not familiar with the intricacies of precisely how this adjustment is made, though I had noticed that point in the documentation.
Would you be able to provide an explanation of the methodology?
June 7th, 2009 at 11:15 am
dojufitz, probably none, and I don’t see the point of the question. Gold is a speculative investment. Sure you can do well out of it, for a while, but essentially it is the same as real estate, with a monetary value much higher than its economic value.
ferb, the difference between the US and Iceland is that Americans mainly owe money to Americans. They do owe a lot to foreigners but also a lot of foreigners owe them and they have a lot of investments overseas. Icelanders seemed to owe everyone, and also had to buy a lot from overseas. It is all a question of relativity.
June 7th, 2009 at 11:36 am
I’m expecting it to happen over the next 12 months, driven by inflation. It really comes down to whether China can be enticed to keep up their level of US dollar investment, and I think that will require something extra to boost their confidence. Massive deficit spending will not do the job. Maybe higher interest rates would attract them, or some sort of geopolitical concessions. The US could sell military technology but that’s like putting a noose around their own necks.
Higher interest rates would cripple the American people, inflation will cripple their currency — rock and a hard place really. Plus there are still “subprime” resets in the pipeline
But if the guy sitting next to you dumps, then getting left behind and finding yourself being the last one to hold US dollars is the worst place to be.
Thus, a positive-feedback exists where the more the dollar devalues, the more temptation there is to dump and flee. They are sitting on an unstable equilibrium that requires them to keep bleeding gold.
Thank you for your summary of the recent Bush presidency. Now we sit and wait for the chickens.
June 7th, 2009 at 11:44 am
By the way, Iceland got nailed by Gordon Brown when he found a sneaky way to use anti-terrorist laws to freeze their international trade in such a way that even their legitimate business was forced to default (do a bit of a google search and read the story).
Given that their lack of self-sufficiency in food, they were forced to capitulate. This was nothing other than a big bully pushing around someone smaller than themselves. Gordon Brown should be horsewhipped over his treatment of the Icelanders and I think that’s gonna happen come election time.
June 7th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Steve,
You can find the methodology here:
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2006/05/art4full.pdf.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
http://economicedge.blogspot.com/200…hite-with.html
Complements of a post on the itulip site I thought this might be relevant.
‘The bond market auction was this week. Again, I want you to FEEL what the bond traders are feeling. They are white with terror. They aren’t looking at some chart in internet candyland, they know there isn’t enough money to buy all the govt bonds.’
For quite a long time I have not been able to see any outcome but this! Aus will be competing for funds in this market. The outcome seems assured to me but there is always a fair chance I am missing something fundamental. So if anyone has a correcting argument i’d love to hear it!!!!
Tel
I must disagree with you that this is a fundamentally US problem. As Steve points out Aus is fantastically leveraged at a private level. In addition a few of us have been banging the drum around here for some time about the potential for catastorphe resulting from our enourmous CAD and our Net external debt position.
I’m thinking that your proposition in this regard is just the Govt and PTB line…the fault is all those damned Americans. We are poor little victims of the big bad Yanks!
(Tel I’m not saying you are not a thinking man)
An analsysis of the Banks situation coming into this crisis, say late 2006, shows that they were indeed vulnerable to this crisis. The idea that they were somehow well managed is just so much rubbish. (I’m being reserved in my language in deference to the tone of this site!). I, now, do not have the numbers to hand, but I remember calculating back then that someting like a 10% fall in RE values would wipe out all the banks capital. (I am open to corection on the 10% but it was quite a low numkber)
To give the Banks credit i think they did see the crisis, belatedly, but in time to do the following things
1. Raise quite massive amounts of capital in the market
2. Postpone the real estate crash by getting the Govt (i.e.us) to throw in Billions of dollars in such schemes as the FHOG, stimulus packages etc
3. Get the Govt to gurantee the deposits to ward off the legitemate concerns that people who were doing the sums had about the safety of deposits with banks.
4. Get the Govt to guarantee the funds they were raising from overseas. If the Govt had not done this, Banks overseas borrowings would have been either impossible or horrifically expensive. Either way Banks, and our financial system would have collapsed (in my amateurish, but hopefully thoughtful opinion).
All tehse measures have allowed the banks time to recapitalise. Don’t get me wrong here. I still think these Govt measures were wrong. We have propped up the Financial parasites and let our mines and factories go to the wall or get sold off to Foreigners. There was not enough money to save everyone as Steve so ably demonstrates.
Further, as far as I’m concerned, all the Govt has done is kick the can down the road a bit.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
BTB,
On the USD, yes it does look like it’s decline for now has been arrested. I think your analysis is the correct one. However, it remains to be seen that it can manage a meaningful rally out of it’s precarious situation. It needs to keep well above the danger 78-80 zone consistantly to confirm its upward trend. I will reserve any judgement on that until we see several closes abobe 84.5 on the the USDX.
But neither crude or copper seem to have been overly effected as yet. And gold could decline to 915-920 and still keep it’s bull pattern intact (IMO).
Stocks look very toppy , especially with the new high late last week.This coming retest of the March low will be definitive. I would be looking for stocks and all commodities lower and a higher USD to confirm the trend change.
Does this mean deflation? Far from it.There are major problems still in the US debt markets and I still believe that no resolution for the USD will take place until that situation becomes clear. If foreignors pack into the short end forcing domestics to take the weight at the long end (with the help of monetization), it’s possible the USD could hold and commodities trade a lot higher. In the current declining economic situation for the US, that seems like stagflation could develop.
We’ll see.
June 7th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Outback Oracle,
I would be interested to know how you got the approximately 10% (or anywhere near it)in the fall of property prices to wipe out the banks’ capital?
In their latest accounts the Commonwealth Bank (for example) lists their housing loans as $295,694 million and their shareholder funds as $29,226. I can’t see details for the average LVR or all the items off-balance sheet, needed to make this calculation.
I am not sure I understand all the stuff in the ‘off-balance’ sheet category; is this where you get the missing numbers to arrive at such a low percentage fall in property values to wipe out the capital?
June 7th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
there is a potential cross road for the green back.
think we will get there when the US’s creditors realise that current policy hasnt worked, and that any economic momentum achieved is a consequence of government and reserve largess and is not self sustaining.
that is assuming current policy doesnt work.
at that point the US is going to have to hire a better salesman than abraham himself to convince its creditors that further attempts at reflation are needed.
furthermore if the green back de values, wouldnt be surprised if we get a race to the bottom, a series of competitive de valuations. its happening now with chinas manipulation of the yuan.
“what ever it takes” ,
it will be interesting to see if the worlds largest creditors will see it that way, when negotiating with its trans atlantic debtors.
June 7th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
has anyone seen the sub prime car loan deals being advertised by one korean car manufacturer in australia.
lose your job, no worries , just hand the car back.
i’m still hoping that i didnt hear the ad correctly.
boy are we in trouble if the penny hasnt dropped by now.
June 8th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
It depends on how much they (the dealer) sells the car for. The ad sounds like shonky business not economices. The margin of risk may be built in-who knows?
June 9th, 2009 at 11:13 am
gaday,
Who is financing the car deals? Hint – you.(actually Taxpayers, courtesy of the Gov’ts vehicle finance bailout scheme). Makes you feel all warm inside, doesn’t it? Helping out the retail sector with our hard earned dollars.
This is what happens when Gov’t gets their grubby big paws into private enterprise. All manner of distortions take place. Why? Because it’s NOT THIER MONEY- it’s ours – so they don’t look after it as you and I would do.
We can look forward to more of this.
June 9th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
MACCA,
I have to admit that I totally agree with you in this particular issue. Using public money to bail out dodgy car dealers by pushing more energy-inefficient cars made overseas is a grave mistake.
If I had gangrene I’d prefer to have my leg amputated rather than allow rot to spread all around my body.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Steve,
Effectively the ABS is saying it applies a constant price to exporter reported volumes from one September quarter to the next. If that’s the case, there is no way that the reported growth in the export component of GDP from Dec 08 to Mar 08 can be distorted by the price volatility. And so it follows that there is no basis for saying that “the exported tonnage of commodity exports probably fell significantly across the board in the most recent quarter, and the recorded increase was an anomaly.”
The critical question is how the ABS deals with the change over from one price reference period to the next. That’s where the potential for distortion arises. The average of the RBA Index of Commodity Prices in AUD terms: 2006-7 = 143.1 / 2007-8 = 148.7 / 2008-9 = 205.5. The last becomes the price reference period in Sept-2010, so if that’s when we will need to get worried. What will the ABS do then?
June 9th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Ken
Gold may really be in a bubble – when alot of people you know are telling you about it….and how you can’t go wrong with it…and your grandma says she likes the 10oz Silver bars best.
I think it will be in a bubble in the future – in fact i think it might become a super bubble….but not at the moment…
June 9th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
MACCA June 9
I COULD NOT AGREE MORE! WELL SAID.
June 9th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Steve,
in this GFC-frightened world, it is vital that we are given balanced comment. The cover note below seems to want to cause panic that “37% (of the debt) is due within 90 days”. However, close reading of the report shows that the reference is to debt coming due within 90 days of 30/6/08 … therefore it would seem good news that the debt has been rolled over successfully. Am I right?
I fear I have been a bear too long, and I don’t want to be a victim of scare mongers.
Australia’s Foreign Debt – Data & Trends, Tony Kryger, Australian Parliamentary Library, 7 May
Contributed by blog member BullTurnedBear. Extremely useful research paper examining Australian debt. Key figures: total gross foreign debt in 2008 was $1.07 trillion ($600b net) having risen from only $8b in 1976; over the same period foreign debt has skyrocketed from 9% to 95% of GDP; 74% is owned by financial institutions; the largest creditors are the UK (23%) and the US (22%; 39% is denominated in AUD, 31.5% in USD, and 13% in euro; 48% has a term less than 1 year, including 37% which is due within 90 days.
June 10th, 2009 at 8:09 am
Hi gvm,
I’m not about to call a Parliamentary researcher or a valued contributor here “scare mongers” -:), but you’re right–the debt was rolled over. This is the common situation in financing, that many debts are very short term, and regularly rolled over. But it is why events like Lehmann’s failure can cause a catastrophe, because in that situation many institutions that would ordinarily roll over someone else’s debt become insolvent and unable to do so. So events like that can still occur.
June 10th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Baltic Dry Index… a pump job?;
http://www.mgn.com/news/dailystorydetails.cfm?storyid=9975
June 10th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Good article at CR regarding US job’s and how the end of recession might look. Very good links to this article too;
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/06/weak-hiring-and-jobless-recovery.html
IMO, the US jobs/wages/credit story is the prime determinant of the path of the US recession/depression and thus the global economy. With US private consumption taking such a huge hit in the US and the jobs outlook bleak (check the article link), it’s difficult to make a case for even stabilization considering 70% of the US economy is consumer driven.
I like the reference to “job hoarding” in Frankel’s piece. It cut’s bot ways though.If the recovery does not materialize in the 3-4th Qtr 2009, another wave of higher job retrenchments (from disappointed hoarders) could well ensue.
June 11th, 2009 at 7:25 am
Mahaish (and others) Re the weakening USD.
I keep wondering why few are commenting on the gigantic Bond issuance that is going to be required over the next few years. Rogoff suggests the amount to be issued by the US could be as high as $24 Trillion. I’ll admit that particular analysis did not look to rigourous to me. However he is talking about a probability of something like $14 T.
It doesn’t matter much. Once we start talking Trillions in any form it becomes a massive amount of Money.
I am wondering about the possible scenario. It’s just a thought process and not a dogmatic belief on my part.
In response to the severe recession the US CAD falls to near zero or even to a positive balance (a CAS). At the same time, Treasuries are being issued to the tune of some Trillions , be it 4, 14, or 24 trillion. This would have the effect of both raising US interest rates as well as sucking in all the Reserve dollars anywhere in the world. The world wide effect of course will be catastrophic. However, it would mean rather than a decline in the USD, the USD may be headed for some years of strength until it is replaced as the world’s reserve currency.
Any thoughts?
June 11th, 2009 at 8:36 am
“Treasuries are being issued to the tune of some Trillions , be it 4, 14, or 24 trillion. This would have the effect of both raising US interest rates as well as sucking in all the Reserve dollars anywhere in the world.”
The reasoning of people who believe in a week USD is that no sucking will take place once certain breakdown point is reached. When investors lose confidence in USD as a reserve currency no bonds will be bought by anyone even at a hefty discount. Therefore the Americans may be forced to increase the amount of money in circulation as otherwise the deflation will become even more severe. Targeting interest rate may require QE. Once this happens on a large scale there is a possible positive feedback mechanism ruining the confidence completely.
Also – the US government has to finance their massive spendings on the defence, bailouts, salaries for fallen bankers, etc. So they either have to sell bonds (the current model) or print money (the Zimbabwian model).
Whether inflation will arrive soon or not I have no idea. I have not enough information to say anything and I am not a specialist in this area.
This is just the mechanism which may spark inflation. There are arguments that this will not happen in the near future as further financing of US debt could be in the interest of some countries and the current model will continue to work.
June 11th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Thanks ak
Again to everyone, please don’t take anything i say here as provocative argument. I am just in a thought process and it’s a bit contrarian! So I really am looking for the hole in my own argument.
Helicopter Ben has already had something of an Epiphany with respect to printing and hence his call this week for Congress to get its house in order re deficits as quickly as possible. His point was monetary policy cannot carry all the load. In this he already publicly states there are limits to printing. He has already seen longer term Treasury rates rise on the threat of QE.
I have no idea of the outcome of all this. However the initial move is for a considerable increase in interest rates. The abandonment of the USD as the Reserve currency will not be immediate and one would think gradual. Therefore I’d assume, if they are not going to print, we will have a steady rise in interest rates PLUS a great sucking sound.
The sucking sound will end the dollar’s reign as the Reserve currency without any particular action from China et al. It may just take 2,3,4, years?
So ak I agree with your take on things longer term. I’m just thinking the intermediate process may involve a higher USD.
June 11th, 2009 at 10:19 am
I’m with you Outback,
At least in the near term, the $US should strengthen as the herd all herd, herd-like, back out of stocks. Later – who knows how much later, it depends on the world’s credulity (cf. Japan) – the $US will no doubt flame out in a massive debt default, either still in deflation or with hyperinflation.
Bernanke and Geithner are trying to sail between the two into the calm waters Keynes foresaw (‘long after the storm has passed’), but the bond market pirates (yar!) already have the good ship USS Sovereign Debt off the starboard bow…
June 11th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Ok, I agree the US has their problems, but what will replace the dollar is the big question. The Sterling is a shot duck, worse than the USD, the Euro and Yen are looking shakey also and China don’t want any currency appreciation I can assure you. It would be a disaster for them both economically and politically. Plus, I know the US aren’t going to give up it’s reserve status without a fight, and by that I mean all out warfare. So answer me this, who’s going to step up and take it from them??
June 11th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Outback Oracle
On June 7 you wrote:
“The idea that they (banks) were somehow well managed is just so much rubbish. (I’m being reserved in my language in deference to the tone of this site!). I, now, do not have the numbers to hand, but I remember calculating back then that someting like a 10% fall in RE values would wipe out all the banks capital. (I am open to corection on the 10% but it was quite a low numkber).”
My question (in part) to you on the same day was:
“I would be interested to know how you got the approximately 10% (or anywhere near it) in the fall of property prices to wipe out the banks’ capital?”
So far you have not replied. In the meantime I have done some very rough calculations using the CBA accounts, an APRA report to give some clues about overall LVR ratios and the proportion of loans with mortgage insurance and I made some rough guesses about how long the bank held the loans. The figure I came up with was that property prices would have to drop some 50% for shareholder equity to be wiped out, assuming no other defaults for business loans etc.
This is very rough with a fair bit of guess work and I would readily accept any other result obtained by someone more knowledgeable in banking. But your 10% or a number near it seems to me to be out of the question. Naturally if we also make assumptions about the banks’ other loans and possible toxic assets any number becomes possible for housing loans (probably the real life situation), but if taken in isolation real estate would have to fall a lot before banks are in danger.
June 11th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Hi Otto and Outback,
In terms of the “equity wipeout” scenario. I’m keen to know on what basis you guys calculate this stuff. There are too many variables and not enough info. Although I grant that you guys may have some better info.
I think bank capital is a made up bogus (arbitrary) measure anyway. In a normal/reasonable market the bank can always raise more capital or sell some assets. Plus governments can easily invent capital to assist with short term adjustments. The US has been doing this since March last year. It’s all fake!
Banks should be much more concerned with panic and depositor runs. Reserves then become the key. Once again government can step in for a short term to save the day. But they will not (in my opinion) hold back the flood of a sustained and extreme panic. Other than freezing the system.
June 11th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Wow,
I’m very interested that several of you are now open to the fact that the $US could rally. Despite the fact that the world is convinced it is going into the toilet.
In answer to the question. “Where will the US get the money it wants to borrow?” here are two ideas.
1. People in the US may buy the bonds. The domestic savings rate is rising and their banking system is insolvent. Some money may go under the mattress and some into G bonds. Do not under estimate how patriotic Americans are.
2. A return to global risk aversion will not only cause the $US to rise, it will also increase the demand for G bonds. I have asked this question many times on this site. In the event of a systematic collapse (or even the fear of one). Where do you put your money? No one can ever (in my opinion) give a better answer than cash. US treasuries are the most accepted proxy around for cash (That could change of course).