Economic debate in Australia today reminds me of one of the great lines in The Rocky Horror Show. As he invites Brad and Janet to meet Rocky, Frank-N-Furter taunts Janet with the lines:
I would like--if I may--to take you on a strange journey...
“I see you shiver with anticipation!
But maybe the rain is really to blame
So I’ll remove the cause,…
But not the symptom!”
It seems that in Australia, the reverse can apply: the symptom can be removed without eliminating the cause. We can avoid a serious recession while doing nothing to reduce private debt.
Excessive private debt caused the Global Financial Crisis. The expansion of private debt caused a false bubble prosperity for the last one and a half decades. Now that the growth in private debt has ceased, economies worldwide are going into a severe downturn driven by deleveraging: consumers in particular are spending far less as they try to reduce their debt levels; output is plummeting, and unemployment is rising.
Australia was as caught up in this process as anywhere else in the OECD. And yet somehow, we aren’t going to suffer much in the way of ill consequences? It seems heroic to assume so, and yet this was the basis of the recent Budget. Discussion and criticism of it by the Opposition and many economic commentators likewise focussed far less on the causes and expected severity of the downturn, and far more on the government’s projections of how rapidly it would return the federal budget to surplus.
Treasury Secretary Ken Henry’s speech to Australian Business Economists (Contemporary challenges in Fiscal Policy, Sydney, 19 May 2009) provided the most detailed defence of the Budget estimates that the recession would be over by 2010-11 and be followed by a boom, do no worse than reduce annual GDP by half a per cent in 2009-10, and see net government debt peak at 14 per cent of GDP in 2013-14 (Budget Paper No. 1, p. 3-9). In this Debtwatch I want to take a more critical look at this document than our economic journalists have done to date, and contrast the assumptions behind it, and its modelling, with my approach.
For God's sake keep a grip on yourself Janet. I'm here - there's nothing to worry about.
The Treasury’s Approach
I’ll quote the key economic argument in Henry’s speech in its entirety first, and interpret it later:
So let me tell you what we actually did. It’ s a bit complicated. But not too complicated, I’ m sure, for this audience.
I’ ve already outlined some of the context for this work. But a quick re-cap: We developed the medium-term scenario to provide parameters for the medium-term projections of the budget balance. The latter are required to span the gap between the four-year forward estimates period and the 40 year projections contained in the intergenerational reports.
In spanning the gap we also wanted to reconcile the short and medium-term GDP trajectory with the long-term projections contained in our IGR ["Inter-Generational Report"] modelling. Call us fastidious if you like, but we don’ t like discontinuities in our economic projections. We wanted to be sure that we were describing a medium-term scenario that is consistent not only with the short-term forecasts, but also with the long-term IGR projections.
The approach is predicated on a gradual recovery in aggregate demand in the final forecast year (2010-11), after which the supply-side drivers of the economy take over.
This is how we went about it. First, recall that we can describe GDP growth using a number of different decompositions. Usually, we employ the components of aggregate demand to tell the story. But increasingly we have used the supply-side decomposition that isolates changes in the following key variables:
(1) the population aged 15-plus;
(2) the participation rate;
(3) the employment rate;
(4) average hours worked; and
(5) labour productivity.
All of these things are cyclically sensitive, including the first because of the cyclical sensitivity of immigration.
We can obtain an index of real GDP simply by multiplying together these five things.
The weak GDP growth rate forecast for 2010-11 can be explained as follows. Despite relatively strong productivity growth of 2½ per cent, and the population aged 15-plus growing by 1¾ per cent, GDP growth is only 2¼ per cent. Weak demand sees both a fall in the participation rate (which subtracts about 1 percentage point), and an increase in the unemployment rate from 7½ per cent to 8½ per cent (which subtracts another percentage point).
As we move into 2011-12, however, growth strengthens sharply: productivity growth is weaker, but still a healthy 2 per cent; the growth in population aged 15-plus is also weaker, but still a healthy 1½ per cent; the participation rate is unchanged; and the unemployment rate falls by one percentage point. You might be interested to know that in coming out of the recessions of the early 1980s and 1990s the unemployment rate fell by about a percentage point a year for the first two years. Taken together, these factors produce a GDP growth rate of 4½ per cent.
That pattern is repeated in the following year, 2012-13. Then in each of the following four years the unemployment rate falls by only one-half of a percentage point a year; productivity growth slows to only 1½ per cent; and the participation rate adds half a percentage point a year. These factors produce annual growth of 4 per cent.
The productivity growth rate of 1½ per cent is less than that used in the two IGRs published to date. It is the actual backward-looking 30-year average. The profiles of the unemployment and participation rates over the period 2013-14 to 2016-17 weren’ t plucked out of the air either. They ensure that by the end of that period, potential GDP is back on the long-term trajectory contained in our IGR [Inter-Generational Report] modelling, having spent nine years from 2008-09 below that trajectory. By 2016-17 the output gap has closed, with an unemployment rate of 5 per cent and a participation rate consistent with the labour force models used in the IGR projections. (Henry 2009, pp 14-16)
Deconstructing Treasury I: The context
Three contextual points stand out in this statement.
Firstly, there is no discussion of what actually caused the GFC, here or anywhere else in Henry’s speech. The fact that it originated in the financial system is noted, but why it originated there, and what caused it, is not considered.
Secondly, “the long run” in the Budget papers is determined by assumptions the Treasury made about the economy’s future in its Intergenerational Report, which was published in 2007. Since those assumptions were made prior to the Global Financial Crisis, that means that the Treasury is assuming that the GFC will have no long term effect on the economy: it will suppress output and employment for a couple of years, but after that everything will return to how it was before the GFC came along.
Thirdly, the Treasury produced its Budget estimates for GDP growth by decomposing growth into 5 factors, making assumptions about those factors over time, and adding them up to produce estimates for 2010-2017. Four of the five numbers used–and the Treasury’s expectations for inflation as well–are shown below (the Treasury didn’t provide its estimates of average hours worked, so that factor is presumably collapsed into the employment rate; and their table [Table One on page 15] says “Unemployment Rate” where I believe they meant “Employment Rate”).
Note that Henry describes this decomposition as a “supply side decomposition”. There’s no argument that population is a “supply side” issue–not withstanding Peter Costello’s “Baby Bonus”, it’s fair to assume that the households decisions about whether to have children are not determined by economic conditions. Ditto productivity to some degree: higher economic growth should lead to higher productivity, but there will be productivity growth even when the economy is stagnant, so at a first pass one can treat productivity growth as independent of aggregate demand.
But are the participation rate and the employment rate “supply side” factors–set by household decisions alone rather than influenced by the demand that currently exists for workers? Henry also notes that all these factors “are cyclically sensitive”, which implies they are affected by demand conditions. So why call them “supply side” factors?
Because if you follow neoclassical economic theory, the rate of growth “in the long run” is determined by the labour supply decisions of households and the rate of productivity growth. While “in the short run”, neoclassical economists will concede that there can be insufficient aggregate demand to employ all workers who wish to work, in the long run they assume that everyone who wants a job can get one, so that “in the long run” the unemployment rate is determined by households, based on their preferences for income and leisure.
Credit issues–even ones as severe as the GFC–don’t factor into the Treasury’s modelling because, following neoclassical economics, they assume that money and credit don’t have any long term impact. Monetary factors like credit and debt are not included in Treasury’s macroeconomic model (TRYM) in any way. Ultimately, their model assumes that the economy will settle down to a long run equilibrium rate of growth determined solely by household labour supply decisions and the rate of technological progress.
Deconstructing Treasury II: Alternative Long Run Assumptions
Now let’s consider the Treasury’s approach in detail, starting with the the framing of the Budget’s assumptions so that they were consistent with the outcomes of the IGR. Henry’s defence that “Call us fastidious if you like, but we don’ t like discontinuities in our economic projections” doesn’t mean that the approach it took here was the only one available. It could also have revised the IGR projections in the light of the GFC, and then made the Budget assumptions consistent with these lowered assumptions about the future.
And there are severalways it could have done that. It could have:
- stuck with the IGR’s assumptions about long run rates of growth, but treated the GFC as a “one-off” event that took a permanent chunk out of economic performance for a few years; or
- treated the GFC as something that permanently altered the economy’s long term growth rate so that the economy was on a permanently different path; or
- some combination of the two.
Because it did none of the above, the Treasury was forced to assume that the medium term impact of the GFC would be to accelerate Australia’s economic growth: since their long run scenario assumed that the GFC altered neither the level of output in 2040 nor the rate of growth then, and yet in the short run (the next two years) it would reduce growth, then in the medium term growth had to accelerate to catch up with the IGR forecasts.
Therefore the Budget’s projections come down to hope. IF the GFC has no impact on the economy in the long run, AND the economy necessarily settles down to an equilibrium rate of growth independent of financial factors, THEN the Budget’s forecasts will be correct.
If on the other hand the GFC does have a long term impact–either by taking pushing the economy down but not affecting the long run rate of growth, or by taking a chunk out of the economy now and altering the rate of growth–and the economy’s equilibrium isn’t independent of financial factors, then the Budget’s forecasts will be wildly wrong.
Deconstructing Treasury III: Alternative Short Run Assumptions
Equally the short run assumptions–that the GFC will cause output to fall by 0.5 percent this financial year and grow by just 2.25 percent next year–can be challenged. The Treasury’s Budget Papers abound with statements like “The 2009-10 Budget has been framed against the backdrop of the deepest global recession since the Great Depression” (Statement 1, p. 1-1). And yet this recession is expected to be shallower than those of 90-92 and 82-84, when GDP fell by 1.25 percent and 2.5 percent respectively?
What if “the deepest global recession since the Great Depression” has an outcome like its predecessor, when output fell by as much as 10 percent a year?
This might sound extreme, but it’s in the ballpark of what’s happening in the rest of the OECD, where US output is falling at 6 percent and Japanese at over 10 percent. Certainly it would have been more realistic to assume that “the deepest global recession since the Great Depression” would have a greater impact than any post-WWII recession, especially since the figures coming out of the rest of the OECD imply that, in the words of Rocky Horror’s Narrator, this recession will be “no picnic”.
What if Treasury had assumed that something half that bad–something like the current downturn in the USA of a 5 percent fall in real GDP in a year–as the immediate impact of the GFC, rather than a mere 0.5 percent?
Though Treasury had to use a single forecast to frame the Budget, it could also have considered a range of scenarios, rather than the single incredibly upbeat scenario it presented and now defends.
On its record with picking the GFC to date, the Treasury is in no position to rest on its forecasting laurels. The comparison of its expectations in 2008 for the most recent financial year with reality makes for interesting reading:
Deconstructing Treasury IV: Doing the Time Warp Again
The real problem with the Budget is that it is based on the same approach to economic forecasting that Keynes lampooned in his often cited but rarely appreciated statement on the long run. It was not a quip about mortality, but a justified criticism of the manner in which the economists of his day assumed that the economy would always return to equilibrium after any disturbance:
“ But this long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is long past the ocean is flat again.” (Keynes, A Tract on Monetary Reform, 1923)
Though one might hope that economics had learnt from the past and improved since Keynes’s day, the reality is that it has instead reconstructed the same manner of thought that existed before Keynes and the Great Depression. The vast majority of models used by economists to predict the future course of the economy today are subject to Keynes’s criticism of 1923. The Treasury’s TRYM model has these same characteristics–though now expressed in mathematical models rather than impenetrable prose:
There are those who say life is an illusion - And reality as we know it, is merely a figment of our imaginations.
- A short term that into which “shocks” can be fed like a change in the growth rate, which then affects all related variables;
- A long run which is in equilibrium with assumptions made about productivity, labour supply, and population growth that generate growth projections which match recent experience, altered only by anticipated changes in demographics; and
- Assumptions about how quickly the equilibrium will reassert itself that generate a cyclical convergence from any short term disturbance.
So if an enormous financial shock–whose causes are not understood–has only a minor impact on the Australian economy, after which we will return to an equilibrium path that reflects recent history, then the Budget will be accurate. And if not?…
It’s just a jump to the Left…
There is a minority of economists who completely reject this approach to economics. But when the economy itself appeared to be booming, that minority was ignored by the majority of “neoclassical” economists, and regarded as “left wing critics of capitalism” by the public.
Now that the GFC is afoot, it is finally possible to get across the fact that the criticism was directed not so much at capitalism itself, as at woolly and delusional thinking about capitalism masquerading as economic logic.
Much of this minority’s time was taken up with pointing out why neoclassical economics was delusional (see my Debunking Economics for a collation of those critiques). Only part of it was devoted to developing alternative theories of how the economy operated, with the outstanding contribution there being Hyman Minsky’s Financial Instability Hypothesis. The core aspects of this approach to the economy are that:
And then a step to the right...
- The economy is inherently cyclical and will never be in equilibrium, either now or in the future;
- Credit and money are critical and impact on real economic activity in “the long run” as well as in the short, and must be included in any macroeconomic model; and
- Asset markets matter because debt-financed speculation on them can both drive economic activity and lead to financial crises.
These insights lead non-neoclassical economists to focus on issues that neoclassical economists ignore–such as the level and rate of growth of private debt–and require a different, truly dynamic approach to modelling the economy, as opposed to the equilibrium-obsessed approach that dominates neoclassical economics.
I’ve recently published two academic papers based on this credit-driven, non-equilibrium approach to economics (one is already available in Economic Analysis and Policy, the other will be published in the Australian Economic Review in September). They’ll be combined into one approach in the book I’m writing on the financial crisis for Edward Elgar Publishers (Finance and Economic Breakdown, estimated date of publication December 2011). Here I’ll show how both of them predict a rather different outcome from the GFC to the “return to business as usual” hopes of the Treasury.
These models are still very basic and incomplete–in particular, I have not attempted to fit them to the Australian data. But they indicate the essential differences between the modelling approach the Treasury takes and true dynamic modelling.
What is a Credit Crunch?
The phrase “credit crunch” has entered the vernacular, but what in fact is it? The easiest way to describe it is as a sudden reduction in people’s willingness to take on debt, and banks’ willingness to extend credit. This phenomenon can be captured by the model I outlined in the Roving Cavaliers of Credit by changing three key parameters:
It's something we ourselves have been working on. But it seems our friend here has found a way of perfecting it.
- The average time horizon over which borrowers aim to repay their loans drops;
- The rate of recirculation of existing bank reserves falls; and
- The rate of creation of new credit money drops.
The changes to financial parameters are shown in the table below. The impact of these three variables on economic activity in this model of a credit-driven economy are dramatic.
The model itself is quite simple, but it differs from TRYM and its neoclassical cousins in one vital way: it is fundamentally dynamic. As noted above, TRYM’s “dynamics” simply result from the model’s key variables converging to some assumed “long run” values that are arbitrarily imposed on the model. For example, the graph below from TRYM’s documentation shows what TRYM assumes will happen to unemployment “in the long run”: it will converge to a steady state level that in 1995 they assumed was 7%.
The fact that unemployment behaved very differently between 1996–when this document was written–forced the Treasury to change the 7% figure to 5.25%. But it it still imposed on the model–it is not something that results from the interaction of unemployment with other variables in the model.
This is why the Treasury can assert that the GFC will have no long term impact on the unemployment rate: because its model simply assumes so.
Things are rather different in the real world, and a truly dynamic model goes at least part of the way to capturing that. Below are four simulations of the impact of a permanent credit crunch–a permanent shift in financial parameters–in the Roving Cavaliers model. Not only does the size of the shock have a dramatic impact on unemployment in the short term–causing everything from a short recession with a mild shock to a long Depression with a large one–but the equilibrium rate of unemployment changes permanently as well.
The model generates an acceleration of growth after a credit-crunch-induced recession, rather like the one that Treasury is assuming will happen–but again, in contrast to the Treasury’s model, this acceleration is not merely an assumption, but a product of the model’s many feedbacks.
Deleveraging and Economic Breakdown
The Roving Cavaliers model above simulates a crisis of liquidity, something which can easily be overcome if firms’ willingness to take on debt, and banks’ willingness to lend, can be restored. If this were the nature of the crisis we are experiencing, then it could be reversed simply by increasing confidence–which is the one thing that can be said in favour of an official forecast that the recession will only last a year and result in unemployment no worse than 8.5 per cent.
But it's the pelvic thrust That really drives you insane...
But what if the crisis is one of solvency instead? What if the real cause of the crisis is not merely a sudden drop in confidence resulting in lower rates of creation and circulation of credit, but too much debt altogether?
That possibility is captured in my Minsky model, in which a series of booms and busts leads to one final bust where the accumulated debt is so great that the economy can no longer service it. Output and employment collapse, and the only way out is to deliberately reduce the debt.
This model’s dynamics are generated by four interacting factors:
- Wage demands by workers based on the rate of employment
- Investment decisions by firms based on the rate of profit
- Speculative borrowing by firms based on the rate of economic growth; and
- Lending by banks
Its equations can be summarised as saying that:
- Workers share of output will rise if wage demands exceed the growth in productivity
- The employment rate will rise if economic growth exceeds the sum of productivity and population growth
- Banks lend to finance investment and speculation and charge interest on the outstanding debt; and
- Speculation rises as the rate of economic growth increases.
Those four factual statements result in a model that generates a series of trade cycles, each apparently like the previous one, but with the level of debt altering over time.
A crucial factor is the distribution of debt between productive and unproductive purposes–between genuine investment and mere speculation. The former builds additional productive capacity that can be used to meet financial commitments in the future, even if today excessive increases in the debt burden leads to a recession. But borrowing that merely finances speculation on the stock exchange or the housing market about the prices of shares and houses adds to debt now without increasing our capacity to service it in the future.
The “No Speculation” simulation shown in the following graphs has only productive borrowing; the “Ponzi Finance” simulation has borrowing to speculate on asset prices as well as productive borrowing.
It is possible to generate a crisis in the “No Speculation” case by choosing a set of initial conditions that result in more extreme cycles–it is a “chaotic” model that has “sensitive dependence on initial conditions” in the technical vernacular–but generally speaking it is a stable system that won’t lead to a debt crisis (in fact in the simulation here, debt to GDP ratios are negative, which means that firms accumulate positive bank balances).
The Ponzi Finance system however is inherently unstable: the growth of unproductive debt during a boom–when people borrow money to speculate on rising asset prices–adds so much to debt that the amount accumulated in the previous boom is never completely repaid before the next boom takes off. The debt to GDP ratio therefore ratchets up over time, until ultimately, so much debt is taken on that the economy experiences not merely a recession but a Depression.
These models are far from “the ant’s pants” in terms of what truly dynamic economic modelling could be. But they are far in advance of models like Treasury’s TRYM that predict the future simply by assuming that it will be pleasant.
END OF COMMENTARY
Comments on the Data
The latest credit figures indicate that, were it not for the First Home Vendors Boost (let’s call it what is really is), private debt in Australia would now be falling. The increase in debt for the month of April was a mere A$776 million, with a A$6.5 billion increase in mortgage debt almost offset by a A$4.8 billion fall in business debt and a A$1 billion fall in personal debt. The change in private debt is therefore on the cusp of reducing aggregate demand, whereas for the past 17 years, it has been adding to it.
Table One
Table Two
Even though I expect that the government’s “Keynesian pump priming” will not prevent a Depression, it is still instructive to compare the Government debt levels, which are the focus of Canberra’s current hysterical debate over the Budget, with private debt levels.
It is an indictment of economic and political thinking that our last forty years of economic debate have been dominated by a song and dance about the Government’s debt levels when out of control private debt levels have been virtually ignored.
The run up in private debt since the recession of 1990 has been so great that changes in government spending are simply too small to neutralise the impact of de-leveraging by the private sector. The next graph shows the contribution that change in debt makes to aggregate demand–defined as the sum of GDP plus the change in debt. Deleveraging has only just begun in Australia, and yet already the reduction in the rate of growth of private debt has sliced about 8 percent off aggregate demand. The government’s attempts to counter this, though huge by historical standards, are trivial compared to the scale of private sector de-leveraging.






June 1st, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Fascinating dissection of Treasury’s forecasts, thanks Steve.
As an engineer, your Minsky derived dynamic models that include money and debt make a lot of sense to me, at least in the abstract.
I wonder however, how much do you think the “devil in the detail” will impact the predicted outcome as you develop these models to take the details into account?
Given the “geometric dynamic” inherent in these models (and economic reality!) it seems to me that even small changes in some of the underlying parameters could have a huge impact on the outcomes predicted (or realized).
Further, if modeling a large (ie, global) economy, presumably one is looking at several similar closely related dynamic systems the interactions between which could produce very different outcomes (not dissimilar to to long range meteorological forecasts).
So at the end of the day, perhaps neoclassical economic theory and its models have one advantage; relative simplicity.
When engaging in public debate, simplicity helps. It’s just a pity reality is not so accommodating.
I’ve long been enamored of a quote by H. L. Mencken that says something along the lines of “Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers”.
It seems to me mainstream public discourse on the this issue is very well summarized by this quip.
June 1st, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Hi Steve
Here are some thoughts to open up new spaces of dialogue and investigation, a cross-disciplinarity if you like. Let me note right now that I am no economist so my comments will be sociological rather than technical. I can’t help but draw links between your criticisms of neo-classical economics and the criticisms of neo-liberalism-as-governmental rationality, found in the sociological and genealogical work of Michel Foucault, Nikolas Rose and Mitchell Dean. I draw attention to this because the problem of neo-classical economics can be approached not necessarily through criticising its epistemological failings. Such a project of debunking is undoubtedly important but I think sociological theory’s scpeticism that reality could be measured against some yardstick of pure reason or truth has much to offer this project.
In relation to economics we may argue there are limits to a mode of criticism whose object is the failure of economic theory to live up to a perfect measure of rationality. Indeed, no economic theory or practice could ever measure up to some objective reason. What we do know is that despite the inevitable gap between reality and economic theory, different economic theories, practices or instruments will appear more truthful at different times and in different places, such as Keynesianism. Therefore, what needs explaining is how, despite their flaws, different ways of doing economics become ‘truthful economics’, capable of speaking the truth? This is not about saying the economic flaws of previous theories explain the emergence of others. The rise and demise of the Keynesian economic orthodoxy cannot be solely explained by its lack of theoretical or practical rigour.
Rather, economics, like all the human and social sciences, is constituted as truthful by multiple rationalities. When these rationalities transform, an effect of internal dynamics and external forces, different questions are asked of economics and different problems are rendered visible. This is demonstrated in the relationship between economics, politics and government that has developed over the past century, and particularly in the latter half. Here, there is an important congruence between the objects and assumptions of neo-classical economics and what are termed governmental rationalities. The assumption of an entrepreneurial individual living their lives as ‘enterprises’ found in the work of Gary Becker, Milton Friedman and Fredriech Hayek, is consonant with the image of the human and reality found in the rationalities of governors in modern Western liberal societies. Is this merely coincidental or a matter of appropriation? I don’t think so.
This relationship between how we think about governing and the rise of certain economic theories (social government and Keynesianism, neo-liberal government and neo-classical economics) is in need of investigation. Neo-classical economics is not, therefore, merely a technical expertise circumscribed to the domain of economy but inextricably tied to our thoughts on how we are governed today: how to govern, through what means, to what ends, what is this human we govern? What is economics if not an attempt to simultaneously constitute and govern the economy and individuals within it? Certainly the rise of ‘freedom’ and ‘autonomy’ in governmental rationalities matches the economic and social policies of today’s governors, one in which individual agency and choice is emphasised and ‘excessive’ governmental intervention derided. Is this relationship between politics, government and economic theory the necessary complement to the project of debunking?
June 1st, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Bruce Tulloch said
“I’ve long been enamored of a quote by H. L. Mencken that says something along the lines of “Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers”.”
The actual quote is, “There is always a well-known solution to every human problem – neat, plausible, and wrong.” (Prejudices: Second Series, 1920)
I first heard this, referring to Thatcherism/Reaganomics, in a more pithy version;
“For every social/political/economic problem there is always a simple solution. And it’s always wrong.”
June 1st, 2009 at 10:18 pm
some good thoughts there gobrad1. The other key item I’d add into the mix is what people want – what are their values, what do they care about most, i.e. culture, and cultural evolution.
Also demographics – Steve’s post touched on this subject a few times but only tangentially. It seems to me that economics and economists in general misunderstand demographics as much as they misunderstand the economy. All our economics, including the debunking kind, appear to assume the can opener of ever increasing populations.
When it comes to causes and symptoms, the demographic transition is as much to blame for the debt bubble as anything else. Question is, what’s to blame for the demographic transition?
June 1st, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Great post Steve. Every time you explain the assumptions neo-classical economists use in their models, it reminds me of High School Physic exams and being told to “ignore wind resistance”. I wonder if aeronautical engineers can get away with ignoring wind resistance?
It seems that Treasury is not only ignoring wind resistance but assuming that there bicycle is actually a rocket ship.
June 1st, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Steve
Marc Faber and a few others are now predicting hyperinflation down the track when interest rates will have to be raised to prevent inflation from all the money being printed for bailouts but the government wont be able to afford to raise interest and the printing snowball will then begin in earnest.
I can only imagine these things are extremely difficult to model, but do you have a opinion on this scenario?
June 1st, 2009 at 11:12 pm
Steve,
Thank you for another piece of very solid analysis.
I’ve found an interesting article on The Guardian’s website:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jun/01/larry-elliott-fantasy-economics
I sent the author an email about the blog however I don’t know whether “it’s time”
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:17 am
Steve,
I read this post and the your two articles, and I’m still looking for the ‘driver’ in the second order system. The ‘spring’ if you will that drives oscillation.
So it seems to clear that changes in private credit drives the business cycle (98.5% correlation to GDP growth). Now where I’m struggling is with is what drives the private credit cycle? Your Ponzi/No-Ponzi charts show that the presence of Ponzi financing of credit exacerbates the boom/bust, but what causes the private credit cycle in the first place?
Is it animal spirits as Keynes said? Is is slick marketing of leveraged products? Is it cheap money hot of the press? Is it simply chasing recent asset class appreciation performance? Do you have a view as to what leads us as a society to want to go out and borrow-and-spend say 5 times annual income?
Are there any existing indicators such as consumer sentiment worth following? Or should we follow asset prices such as house prices since a surge in credit activity should follow say 6-months of well publicised price rises? Or should we just follow credit growth published by the RBA/Fed?
Any chance your recent pub chats could be podcasted?
Kind regards, Mark
June 2nd, 2009 at 3:55 am
“but what causes the private credit cycle in the first place? ”
How bout the great Australian dream of home ownership. This has been the one constant driving personal debt forever.
However, in the last 30 years or so, with Neo-classical economics, products that were only ever available to the wealthy became more accessible to the masses as a result of the boom increase in value of there homes.
Credit markets allowed much greater debt, and people simply refinanced there home to pay for the 70inch plasma, bose surround sound, and hotted up Holden utes (no accounting for taste!)
Here in the US – the iPhone costs $300 to buy provided you sign up for a 2 yr plan that ends up costing about $110/month. So, over a 2 yr period one ends up paying $3000 for a phone! And, every one has one. I mean everyone, regardless of age, sex, race, or economic status. Go to any apple store and you find yourself asking “What recession?”
The value of money has been lost.
June 2nd, 2009 at 7:58 am
Mark,
You have asked a very valid question.
The starting point for me is
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/03/10/time-to-read-some-minsky/
The link to the lecture is broken. The lecture can be found here:
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/lectures/
I will read the lecture after work so I don’t want to make more comments based on my ignorance.
Adam
June 2nd, 2009 at 8:15 am
I’m in the deflation camp Marvenger.
The expectations of inflation come mainly from a “fiat money” vision of how the credit system works. If that were true then Friedman’s “too much money chasing too few goods” argument might apply. But with a credit system independent of fiat money, it would require an enormous expansion in the latter to counteract the collapse of the former and still cause inflation. If the US “printed” $25 trillion then there might be an issue, but I think that by the time Bernanke has pushed out say $5 trillion to no discernible effect, belief in that approach will evaporate and the whole political landscape will have changed. They won’t, in my opinion, get anywhere the level of fiat money creation needed to cause inflation, and they will give the money to the wrong group anyway–to creditors rather than debtors.
June 2nd, 2009 at 8:19 am
Re the Pub talk, it will be on Channel 31–TVS–in a couple of weeks I think. I’ll see if I can find out when.
On the driver, it’s simply the perception of individual gain on a rising market. That chance for individual gain exists when we’re revaluing assets after a previous crisis–the basic mechanism that Minsky’s thesis notes. But at the collective level, all we’re doing is adding debt. I made the first step implicit and simply modelled the second step.
The best indicators are the rate of growth of debt compared to GDP (when that’s accelerating exponentially we are in trouble) and the ratio of asset prices to CPI. But I’d rather break the nexus between leverage and asset prices if we can achieve significant reform out of this crisis.
June 2nd, 2009 at 10:43 am
Thanks Steve, very much indeed. More pertinant data and analysis for my education thanks to you.
As my “technical” education of economics grows, I become more concerned. Even with the very rudimentary understanding I have managed to gleen from this blog, juxtaposed with what I see coming out of Treasury and other world recognised economists, I can see that there is a great void of difference in thought and therefore policy.
Someone is very very wrong here. And the levers of power are with the “other” mob.
I beleive that power is the key here. To retain it, the neo-classicals have to now make certain their theories work and be seen to work.Or they appear a failed lot. It leaves them only one path. And that is for massive Govt spending. Given the situations of the Anglo economies, that spending is in fact massive deficit spending, borrowing and in the case of the US printing Trillions in new money. If Steve is correct, current spending won’t be enough to make the difference, so calls for more and more will likely ensue and take place.
This is the kind of situation where I think the risk of inflation in the US is very real. It all hinges on how the bond markets handle all that new debt. The bond markets are key now to how the USD goes from here. Should we see a dollar crisis, US prices for goods and therefore inflation will go through the roof, regardless of the supply demand dynamic. The US long bond is under pressure but but still manageable. But it is worth watching very closely. The message is very clear already to the US- longer interest rates are going to head higher along with sovereign risk.
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:14 am
Hi Macca,
I want to paint an alternate view to yours. Not saying you are wrong. But simply saying what if? I can’t say what will happen, only make guesses about possible outcomes.
Say the $US is actually in a bull market and the current 6 month trend is just a retracement from a temporarily overbought position (this is the deflationary and contrarian view). Deflationary view, because the value of a dollar rises during deflation. Say also that bonds are also in a bull market and simply retracing their overbought position. Assume that they too will soon resume their bullish trend.
The above two scenarios may also be explained by risk aversion/appetite. The current trend reflects an appetite for risk and the previous (and possibly next) trend reflects an aversion to risk. So what?
Using your “neo-classical” logic mentioned above. If the above scenario turns out to be true, the Fed will soon be able to claim that buying treasuries is working (as yields will begin falling again), they just needed time. Thus, buying themselves some more time. They will not need to run the “printing presses” a lot more if that happens. Also as the dollar begins to appreciate again the fear of $US default should also abate (not likely though, probably just a new explanation will arise).
A problem with this scenario is that commodities, stock markets and corporations will all likely crash (due to renewed risk aversion). As such the Fed’s gloating will be only short lived. At some point after that they will be tossed out and some new turkeys with even more extreme (hard to imagine) ideas will be given a go at “fixing the problem”.
By then though, the fix (deleveraging, default and much lower price discovery) will be quite mature. So any new policies, will likely delay and slow the inevitable “recovery”.
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:49 am
A few things people tend to overlook when talking about the possibility of inflation in the US, when trying to explain it purely with economic models.
Firstly, the $US is a fiat currency, and fiat currencies are backed by one thing, faith. When confidence leaves a fiat currency it falls like a rock.
What causes a lack of confidence in a fiat currency? The most common cause would be increasing sovereign debt to the point where foreign creditors start to doubt the countries ability to repay. Monetizing sovereign debt send shockwaves to foreign lenders, we can see this happening right now in the US all over the media. China openly expressing it’s concerns, the dollar index falling below the resistance level of 80, long term bond sales weakening etc.
What are the effects of the $US falling?
The US is a net importer, a falling dollar will broadly impact prices on any industry that depends on imports in particular energy ie. oil/gas etc., resulting in price inflation that has nothing to do with private debt levels and many of the things mentioned by Steve above.
So far I have yet to see a reasonable mathematical model the predicts the confidence of a fiat currency.
- Ernie.
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:51 am
I just found a research paper prepared for the Australian Government by Tony Kryger entitled Australia’s Foreign Debt – Data and trends, dated 7 May, 2009.
I guess the government has realised private foreign debt levels are important after all.
Some interesting numbers as at June 2008:
Gross foreign debt $1.07T
Net foreign debt $600B
75% of the gross debt is owed by financial institutions (almost $800B)
39% is denominated in $A
31.5% is denominated in $US
13% Euro
6% Pounds
4% Yen
48% of the debt has a term of less than 1 year. and 31% has a term of 1 to 5 years.
Given that our currency is off 20% since June 08, the gross foreign debt in $A terms has already risen to $1.23T (approx, using just $US rate and extrapolating)
Also, if my trend analysis is correct and the $A resumes its bear market path. The value in $A of our foreign debt could easily rise by 60%+ over the next few years (unhedged). Total gross up to $1.76T and more. That’s without borrowing another cent. We don’t know yet how much new private foreign borrowings will grow (or shrink) or how much of the new government borrowing will come from foreigners.
Furthermore, the problem with hedging is that some institutions will “bet” the right way and some will not. The losses and gains can be astronomical on such big numbers. Given that 90+% of investors now believe the $US will fall, I’d say some massive derivatives and hedging bets are going to come unstuck shortly, just like they would have last year when our dollar went from 98 cents to 60 to the $US.
Note 1: I’d say these number do not include over the counter derivatives transactions or bank hybrid debt issues, which have become very popular in the last 10 years. Therefore, the numbers are much bigger in reality.
Note 2: The graphs had no info on the money we had lent to foreigners. So I couldn’t tell what currency we had lent in, what sector had lent the money or to whom had we lent it.
http://www.aph.gov.au/Library/pubs/rp/2008-09/09rp30.htm
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Wo! Good detective work BTB–this is a very useful paper. I think I’ll add a link to it as a post in its own right later this week.
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:06 pm
BTB,
Your theory is possible, no doubt. I think it is as possible as the one I put forward.
Given the dynamics of the current USD/Bonds/Stocks situation , with the background of US Govt spending and bailout policies, I’m sure that soon enough we will be able to see what the future holds for the USD.
One possibility has occurred to me though, thinking this through, which I should perhaps give more weight to – Stagflation. In an environment with higher (MUCH higher) unemployment and borrowing costs weighing on households, business and markets, combined with a universal aversion to the USD and US Bonds , then quite conceivably higher commodity prices could exist with lower levels of economic activity.
I will be watching intently!
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:57 pm
MACCA,
They would like to see the stagflation. This would be “the equilibrium”. I think that the instability is too great to allow for that because either possible scenario will be reinforced by the positive feedback.
If any serious global aversion to US bonds and USD develops the Argentinian scenario is more than likely. If the political system does not disintegrate they will recover fully in a few years time – of course at a much lower level of consumption and not as the only global superpower.
An alternative is an outright depression with strong USD. Then the recovery may take much longer. There will have a very limited incentive to manufacture anything until they hit the bottom.
Whatever happens in the US will affects us however:
1. Our political system is more stable due to the size of the country, political traditions and lack of empire to look after and die for.
2. There is a half-year delay between the US and Australia so we’ll have some time to adjust.
3. We are a commodity based economy.
June 2nd, 2009 at 3:12 pm
BTB
That article said the debt was $600B at the end of June 2008. According to RBA stats it was over $698 Billion at the time…or as you more correctly write it aound here $698,000,000,000.
Great Scott!
As at the end of December the debt is shown as $713,854,000,000. The exchange rate at the time was areound the A$=USD 0.70.
I’m not contradicting you, just updating a bit.
The Opposition is being ridiculed at the moment for suggesting Govt Liabilities will get to over $1T dollars ($1,000,000,000,000). With their guarantees of Banks’ Foreign Borrowings I’d say in this case, as you point out, it is not an exaggeration. I’d sat the Libs deserve ridicule but not on that point.
On personal strategies I took a rather large bet on the A$ and NZ$ declining against the Yen last year. After some substantial gains and then substantial losses I managed to get out a bit in front. When the A$ reached 107Y late in the year I wanted to have another go but by I had lost my nerve, so I missed out on the rather massive win I had expected in the first place. If it was easy everyone would be doing it I guess.
I was watching Rudd and Duck in Parliament yesterday and I think I finally worked out how politicians (and Treasury as Steve points out) view the massive debts, borrowings and deficits. Now we all know that 0 = zero. So I believe they think that if a number has more zeros in it, the less it is!!
There is no other explanation that I can see!
June 2nd, 2009 at 3:42 pm
http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSPEK14475620090601
“Chinese assets are very safe,” Geithner said in response to a question after a speech at Peking University, where he studied Chinese as a student in the 1980s.
His answer drew loud laughter from his student audience, reflecting scepticism in China about the wisdom of a developing country accumulating a vast stockpile of foreign reserves instead of spending the money to raise living standards at home.”
June 2nd, 2009 at 4:12 pm
What?
“reflecting scepticism in China about the wisdom of a developing country accumulating a vast stockpile of foreign reserves instead of spending the money to raise living standards at home”
rather
“reflecting scepticism in China about the wisdom of a developed country sinking deeper and deeper into insolvency by spending whatever they borrow to keep the unsustainable level of consumption and ridiculous living standards of the wealthy classes”
June 2nd, 2009 at 4:34 pm
I can see the more this market rally marches on the more you guys believe the MSM. Many contributers to this site keep saying that the $US is crashing for obvious reasons. “It’s so plain for all to see”.
If the $US is falling because they are “printing money” and their government debt is growing rapidly, why is the British Pound rallying? The Poms have announced two amounts of QE and their government debt levels are worse than the US. Also the pound is not the reserve currency. Furthermore the Poms have actually nationalised some of their banks.
The pound is not only up 20% against the $US (since its bottom) The pound is also up against the Euro too.
It’s possible that speculation is playing a part. When the answer is sooooo obvious to everyone (The MSM reason that is), the collapse should have already happened.
I could well be wrong. But I am not prepared to accept the simplicity that keeps being offered by the MSM.
June 2nd, 2009 at 5:36 pm
So you think that China and Russia are not going to sacrify USD 1tn or even 2tn on peacefully getting rid of the cancerous growth called the global US domination?
Come on what is USD 2tn for them compared with the political gain?
The stupid Yanks have been baited. MSM or watching the stockmarket has nothing to do with my interpretation of history.
I remember the previous collapse and that’s it.
June 2nd, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Steve,
The hyper-inflationists argument seems to center not around the possibility of reflation simply by printing – everyone familiar with the mechanics of credit money knows that can’t heppen.
Rather, they point to one of two scenarios
1) complete ‘loss of faith’ in fiat money due to repeated bouts of monetisation. However advocates of this scenario don’t usually give any more detail than that, and explain the exact sequence of events which would then lead to hyper inflation.
2) the FED successfully creates expectation of inflation, sufficient to reignite speculative loan demand and demand for assets. I think this is where marc faber is coming from. Again, the analysis of this scenario rarely touches upon what happens when the next bubble runs out of steam, and how long such a wekly anchored bubble would last.
I think it would be useful for you to address these issues, as they form the core thesis of the inflationists.
June 2nd, 2009 at 7:05 pm
This article contains useful insights into the REAL reason for weimar hyperinflation. It was speculation on the the mark that caused the problem, rather than printing that caused the problems. Perhaps this kind of short selling feedback loop is what the ‘loss of confidence’ crowd are talking about.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13673
“So why haven’t our currencies already collapsed to a trillionth of their former value, as happened in Weimar Germany? Indeed, if it were a simple question of supply and demand, a government would have to print a trillion times its earlier money supply to drop its currency by a factor of a trillion; and even the German government isn’t charged with having done that. Something else must have been going on in the Weimar Republic, but what?
Schacht Lets the Cat Out of the Bag
Light is thrown on this mystery by the later writings of Hjalmar Schacht, the currency commissioner for the Weimar Republic. The facts are explored at length in The Lost Science of Money by Stephen Zarlenga, who writes that in Schacht’s 1967 book The Magic of Money, he “let the cat out of the bag, writing in German, with some truly remarkable admissions that shatter the ‘accepted wisdom’ the financial community has promulgated on the German hyperinflation.” What actually drove the wartime inflation into hyperinflation, said Schacht, was speculation by foreign investors, who would bet on the mark’s decreasing value by selling it short.
Short selling is a technique used by investors to try to profit from an asset’s falling price. It involves borrowing the asset and selling it, with the understanding that the asset must later be bought back and returned to the original owner. The speculator is gambling that the price will have dropped in the meantime and he can pocket the difference. Short selling of the German mark was made possible because private banks made massive amounts of currency available for borrowing, marks that were created on demand and lent to investors, returning a profitable interest to the banks.
At first, the speculation was fed by the Reichsbank (the German central bank), which had recently been privatized. But when the Reichsbank could no longer keep up with the voracious demand for marks, other private banks were allowed to create them out of nothing and lend them at interest as well.4
A Story with an Ironic Twist
If Schacht is to be believed, not only did the government not cause the hyperinflation but it was the government that got the situation under control. The Reichsbank was put under strict regulation, and prompt corrective measures were taken to eliminate foreign speculation by eliminating easy access to loans of bank-created money. “
June 2nd, 2009 at 8:28 pm
We can only speculate and I think that apart from considering several “what if” scenarios there is no way anyone can predict what’s going to happen regarding USD or AUD. If there is no political meddling a depression is the most likely outcome. I wouldn’t say that the inflationary scenario is impossible. I have already made a lot of comments about that scenario. Unless there is some new information I would give up on speculating any further.
I am even not sure whether anyone on the Earth can predict for example the price of gold in AUD or USD in 2013. Nobody has access to all the information and there are certain totally random factors, there is some dynamics nobody can control.
What if Kim Jong Sick suffers another stroke and a seizure while playing with his joystick and a few missiles are fired? (hope this doesn’t happen or the electricity goes off and his joystick fails)
What we know for sure is just the size of the debt (public and private) and the current flow (deficit). This is enough to worry about.
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Thanks Steve
I’ve been agreement with you about deflation but I’m starting to doubt myself. Heres’s an article with a table saying that 11.3 trillion has been pledged in bailout money and breaking it down and that about a quarter has been spent. I’m not sure how good the research is but it looks credible to me.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0429/p19s01-usgn.html
Michael Hudson was having a bit of rant with max keiser in the following video if you’ve got time to watch. Hudson is talking about the plutocracy being created with all this bailout money and they’re even getting it all tax free. I’m not sure if Michael is too emotionaly invested in all this but from what he’s saying it looks like it might be hard to change the political situation.
new political parties needed?
June 2nd, 2009 at 11:38 pm
here’s the vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS2Iptr8PDo&feature=related
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:25 am
marvenger,
Interesting video. Michael Hudson is one of those heterodox economists worth listening to.
Max Keiser called for a fatwa against Hank Paulson!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZiWd0bGAdc
June 3rd, 2009 at 9:46 am
I do enjoy Max for some comic relief.
June 3rd, 2009 at 10:28 am
If the banks are creating money “on demand” then that is money printing by any other name. All this proves is that money printing creates inflation when in private hands just like it does in government hands — nothing surprising.
The short-sellers merely amplify a trend that is already underway. Just like the recent crash of the US sharemarket, the shares had already started falling and the subprime crisis was in full swing when the short sellers started applying their pressure to the system.
If you think about it, the banks are not making “profitable interest” at all when inflation is destroying their entire loan portfolio. The banks actually make massive losses (in real terms) under hyperinflation. Printing money has never and will never create additional wealth in the form of any material goods. All it does is transfer wealth from everyone holding money to the printer of new money… tax by stealth.
For all those who do believe that money printing creates material wealth, please try to explain where that wealth comes from in the physical world. Where does extra food come from when a bank prints money? Explain the mechanism.
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
Tel,
I agree that shorting can only work when something is already overpriced.
“Printing” money creates as much wealth as creation of M2 money by credit. You can’t tell how the money has been created.
“Printing” increases demand. That increased demand stimulates the economy which grows faster and damages the environment quicker by using more energy. Excessive demand may create inflation which may hit so-called middle classes.
“Wealth creation” by leveraged property/share speculation directly increases wealth of those who can afford to take place in the schema and know when to jump off the train when it’s going to crash. Then they leak money to the system and stimulate it – this is how it worked when Jonh Howard was in power. Since you don’t believe that the amount of physical wealth is going to massively rise due to financial “wealth creation” (fortunately I don’t have to prove that) – the only interesting question is whose wealth is going to diminish when wealth of investors/speculators is rising.
In this case wealthy classes force migrants and younger generations of Australians to work harder and harder for them. If you look at how much money has to be spent on renting a 2 bedroom flat infested with cockroaches and with a leaking ceiling (for example $400/wk) – this is the money redistributed by the system to the landlords and back to the banks.
Anyway I am also not in favour of “printing” just to save the current system.
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:23 am
BTB,
Is this the type of move in the USD you are looking for?;
http://www.e-wavecharts.com/usd_crude_may28_2009.htm
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:43 am
Thanks Macca,
I have not seen that site. I will check it out.
Yes I am expecting a trend reversal in the $US. Something like on the chart shown. Timing of a turn is very hard to predict though. I agree with that guy in the sense that the retracement seems to be very mature.
Why is this so significant? If the $US trend reverses and in fact the $US is in a bull market (not a new bear market as many believe) then the outlook for the world economy is very dire. The bullish $US trend change could be a leading indicator to the start of the next deflationary phase of this depression.
As we know most were not ready last time assets started crashing and most will not be ready next time either. Markets turn when the extreme majority of people are on one side of the trade.
I will not rule out the possibility that the bearish $US trend will continue and the world markets will take another path. But, $US bearishness is reading at extreme levels. Euro bullishness is reading at extreme levels. That cannot go on for an extended period of time.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
ak,
“In this case wealthy classes force migrants and younger generations of Australians to work harder and harder for them.”
Quite frankly ak, this the kind of tripe that makes me sick. Could it be that many people have worked hard, saved , sacrificed and wisely invested over time to accumulate some wealth? And this should be penalized and confiscated in the name of wealth distribution (to who- you?) Let’s do away with the right to own private property and instead share it with the proletariat. That’s proven successful before, right?
And where is the “force”? No one is FORCED to rent a particular accomodation.It is a choice. If you don’t like it- don’t rent it. Go somewhere else where accomodation is better suited.
My response to the tripe above is “work hard, save, sacrifice and invest wisely and you too can accumulate some wealth”. That way one becomes a productive member of society and not a bludger on the (taxpayer funded )system, trying to game it for what one can and thereby INCREASING the costs of others.
You are constantly and consistantly advocating that your wealth should be advanced by way of penalizing and confiscating the wealth of others, rather than doing it the hard way- by yourself , off your own toil. I for one get the message. Maybe you can now give it a rest?
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:11 pm
scepticus:
See Marc Faber vs Steve Keen in inflation/deflation debate- Part 2: Marc Faber’s view
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
MACCA,
“You are constantly and consistantly advocating that your wealth should be advanced by way of penalizing and confiscating the wealth of others, rather than doing it the hard way- by yourself , off your own toil. I for one get the message. Maybe you can now give it a rest?”
I haven’t advocated anything. In fact I am not in favour of blind reflating the bubble. What gives you any right to state that I personally want to confiscate your wealth? I find this comment abusive and offending.
I made certain observations and you may or may not agree with them. The fact that I see the world differently doesn’t mean that I am your class enemy. Otherwise I can only quote Karl Marx:
“The mode of production of material life conditions the social, political and intellectual life process in general. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness.”
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/quotes/index.htm
You wrote:
“Could it be that many people have worked hard, saved , sacrificed and wisely invested over time to accumulate some wealth?”
If you think that the rampant property speculation of the John Howard era benefited everyone equally please prove that. My observation is that it didn. If you think that there was no rampant speculation, what has created the credit bubble?
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Hi Steve,
You posted;
“If the US “printed” $25 trillion then there might be an issue, but I think that by the time Bernanke has pushed out say $5 trillion to no discernible effect, belief in that approach will evaporate and the whole political landscape will have changed.”
When you say “belief in that approach will evaporate”, are you not saying that beleif in the US ability to fund itself would evaporate- and with it confidence in US debt and the US dollar?
Could you please claify how you might expect this “evaporation” of belief would manifest itself in the markets?
Thanks.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:39 pm
MACCA:
Incidentally, Marc Faber has an opposite viewpoint in that. Basically, he believe Bernanke will take the insanity approach: doing the same thing (printing money) over and over again and expecting different outcome. Faber said Bernanke follows the Zimbabwe school of thought: if there’s problem print. If problem not solved, print more. If it still resolved, print even more.
The problem is not whether printing money can trump deflation. The issue is, what will happen after the GFC i.e. what happens after the debt deflation is over.
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:00 pm
I mean belief in the idea that “printing money” (quantitative easing) will cause inflation.
To cite Bernanke on this:
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm
CIJ,
Yes, Faber is saying that , you are correct.
Just because it’s crazy doesn’t mean Bernanke won’t do it. But don’t think he has any real choice given his demonstrated commitment to QE. The implication is that debts can rise in that environment- The Fed will provide.
The US rolled the dice on massively ramping up debt last year and it continues. The Bond and currency markets are going to decide the outcome of that bet IMO.
But Steve does put forth a very compelling case for debt deflation which is without doubt happening. At some point as Steve states,
“belief in that approach will evaporate”, after many Trillions in debt/monetization has proven ineffective.
And then what?
That epiphany must manifest itself somehow. I’m interested to see what form Steve thinks that will take.
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:13 pm
MCCA:
To put clarify the understanding of the debate, let me rephrase the point of difference between Marc Faber & Steve Keen:
1. Steve Keen believes that Bernanke will eventually abandon the belief that QE will reverse deflation.
2. Marc Faber believes that Bernanke will be so committed to the QE idea that he will never change his belief/approach i.e. take the insanity approach. This committment can be due to ideological or political reasons or whatever.
Whether (1) or (2) is true is a matter of judgement call and outside the scope of economic modelling.
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:18 pm
This is a political question not an economical one.
There are many international players involved and international markets. The game is played at multiple levels at the same time. Ultimately it is the global domination game.
The only one statement which can be made by looking at the Steve’s model is that injecting a few trillion USD will not spark inflation provided that foreign creditors (China) do not dump the USD.
We cannot even say for sure whether people at the US Treasury Dept understand the nature of the problem. I don’t think so.
Can anyone predict how they will behave when they realise what’s really going on? What about the public opinion in the USA?
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:23 pm
To complicate the US situation even more, if we include the unfunded medicare/social security liabilities of the US government, the public debt is set to a few (or many or whatever) times the size of the total private debt. This will be a problem in a couple of decades from now. The GFC will be miniscule compared to this looming public debt problem of the US government.
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:27 pm
P.S. The word “problem” in my previous post is probably an understatement. “Disaster” is a better word.
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Okay, so now we have a positive GDP number to get the bulls quivering. But can anyone explain to me how inventories fell by about $3.3 billion and yet had “no impact” on the GDP growth rate. Quote from the release summary: “Total inventories fell by $3,836m in trend terms and $3,351m in seasonally adjusted terms. Changes in inventories had no impact on GDP growth during the quarter.”
June 3rd, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Oh, I get it now. Ignore.
June 3rd, 2009 at 3:03 pm
I like this:
“House prices NOT tipped to slide”
“The most public faces of the house price debate have been Robertson vs Keen thanks to their bet on the issue with the loser having to walk to Mt Kosciusko. We reported Robertson’s debunking of Keen’s 40 per cent forecast three months ago and since then the Macquarie interest rate strategist has strengthened his case with the help of the official family.”
http://business.smh.com.au/business/house-prices-not-tipped-to-slide-20090603-bv6p.html
almost as much as that:
“Admiral Kelly, Captain Card, officers and sailors of the USS Abraham Lincoln, my fellow Americans, major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed. ”
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/05/01/bush.transcript/
June 3rd, 2009 at 4:03 pm
The best evidence of an Australian property bubble is Nigel Stapledon’s PhD thesis. I’ve extracted the data from 1880-2006 in Excel, and adjusted/compared it to Robert Shiller’s data. What immediately becomes obvious is that there is a bubble and moreover, it is much larger than the US bubble. Of course, the AU and US property markets can’t be directly compared but the trends are interesting to see.
I’ve also added the ABS property index data to Stapledon’s index from 2006 to the latest quarter of 2009, and the property bubble is indeed beginning to deflate. If I could place it up on this forum I would, but can’t.
It is worthless to listen to the mainstream on this issue. About 10 out of 15,000 US economists saw an $US8 trillion property bubble. That’s a percentage of 0.06%. The defunct academic scribblings of economists don’t fill me with enthusiasm. Neither do Australian economists (apart from one).
To find a nice place to rent (in Melbourne) has been quite difficult for the last few years. As a renter, one of the best things to see will be streets filled with sale and foreclosure signs. Of course, it will not be a nice outcome for many but this is what happens when we trust neoclassicals, government and capitalism.
June 3rd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Philip,
i can’t wait for it all to go horribly wrong….only then will people learn…
ps. i do not own a home but would like to get a modest one for a fair price – not 9 times my income.
June 3rd, 2009 at 7:57 pm
QE has already shown its self to be a dismal failure, it does not work. The money multiplier transmission mechanism that it relies on, through the fractional banking system, is not working. The money is merely piling up in the reserve account of the banks. In the mean time, the economy is collapsing, debt money is being destroyed, broad money is collapsing. So we can forget about worrying about QE and its inflationary properties, or lack thereof.
The only other alternative to preventing broad money from collapsing is to inject base money via an alternative avenue other than through the failed fractional reserve banking system.
That alternative is government deficit spending, via employing fiscal policy objectives to inject base money into the economy. However, this alternative money circuit, which is available to government, is fraught with many political problems.
Neo-liberal ideology, government oppositions, MSM, and most other remaining cohorts of society are all jumping up and down, scared of the unfounded consequences of government deficit spending.
Ask yourselves, what has this blog site being discussing for quite a while?
What do you think will happen, when Governments will find it harder and harder to articulate the necessity of deficit spending to prevent an economic contraction of -10+% of GDP?
I posit, as Steve has, that they will be forced to give up for:
1. political reasons, every one will be screaming and shouting for them to stop before they even reach near the quantity required to make a dent in the collapse in the money supply.
2. due to the asymmetric property of debt destruction to that of debt creation. That is, when the Minsky moment hits, the rate of collapse of debt will be so much more rapid on the way down than it is on the way up. You can see such a dynamic in many markets. This will mean that even if Government wanted to use deficit spending to battle against the rate of debt money destruction, it will be overwhelmed, due to the characteristics of the deficit spending transmission mechanism.
In short, the rate of debt money destruction dynamic occurs more rapidly than that of the deficit spending dynamic, so the debt money destruction dynamic will trump the deficit spending, even if it were allowed to be implemented, which it won’t because of the perception of massive sovereign debt that will need to be paid back. Which in reality this sovereign debt does not need to be paid back, but that is not going to prevent wrong policies decisions.
There is no doubt in my mind that deflation will swamp any possible mechanism that is politically acceptable to prevent it.
The government just don’t have any effective counter mechanism that will be politically acceptable.
June 3rd, 2009 at 8:20 pm
ak,
“The only one statement which can be made by looking at the Steve’s model is that injecting a few trillion USD will not spark inflation provided that foreign creditors (China) do not dump the USD”
If the US-PRC trade is such that the US maintains a current account deficit, then the PRC will consequently have a current account surplus with the US at the currency exchange rate between the USD and Renminbi targeted by the PBoC.
If PBoC continues its policy of pegging to the USD then the only way they can keep this peg is to intervene in the currency market and continue to increase their reserves in USD.
They have no other choice, they have to purchase USD to maintain the currency peg.
So as long as they benefit from the US-PRC trade circuit that exists (US current account deficit with PRC) the PBoC will be *forced* to continue purchasing USD, and *not* selling. Once they have purchased the USD, they will then need to decide what USD denominated assets they will purchase. Given they are PBoC reserves, they will continue to purchase USG treasuary paper, which appears at present to be in the short maturity zone of the yield curve.
Until the above trade circuit reverses, the PBoC will continue to purchase USD if they wish to maintain their current peg to the USD.
June 3rd, 2009 at 8:54 pm
This is an interesting article regarding China growth figures:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124350326977562001.html
June 4th, 2009 at 1:48 am
iconoclast
Don’t underestimate the degree to which Asians think ahead. They are quite prepared to sacrifice personal consumption for benefits arising in 20 years time. I have practical examples of this. My point is don’t get carried away by thinking the Chinese must do this or that tomorrow. Their plan may have a time frame of 20 years and the move you are looking at is just the first move of the pawn in the Chess game.
Second, suppose the Chinese, instead of buying Treasuries, start buying US assets like Coal, Uranium, Oil, Farmland. My guess is the US Govt will try to stop them. It may be then you will develop overnight a full blown crisis with Chinese holding most of the cards.
Meanwhile they will just keep buying up the Sovereignty of places like Australia. The US, the UK and Japanese are the big foreign holders of Aus resources. We are desperate for USD. Will we really care whehter the US, UK, Japanese or China owns them? We might but we will acquiesce. There is nothing we can do about it. The decision to sell our country to maintain an unreal living standard was made long ago, like about 1959.
Similarly, we, and the US, will find ourselves competing with the Chinese for scarce resources such as OIl. They will have the money, one form or another, to buy it. We will not.
Perhaps we have more of a problem with teh Chinese holding all those USD than the USD does?
June 4th, 2009 at 3:15 am
Contraian Investors Journal pointed me to: “See Marc Faber vs Steve Keen in inflation/deflation debate- Part 2: Marc Faber’s view”
I had seen that article, and here is where I think the weak point (or at least ambiguous point) in faber’s argument lies:
Faber: “by monetizing the growing fiscal deficits a central bank digs its own grave in terms of its ability to pursue tight monetary policies when such policies become necessary.”
So the question is when DO such policies become necessary. Steve suggests – not for many years.
Given overcapacity, debt etc, the only plausible source of new loan demand is for speculation, particularly commodity speculation, which BTW is _exactly_ what Faber is engaged in – this is his ‘book’.
If faber is talking about tighter policies to restrain very highly leveraged speculation then he may have a point. The Ellen Brown article about weimar I linked to earlier points to exactly this danger. If however he is talking about some kind of recovery of demand based on the real economy then I just don’t see that happening until jobs return and asset prices stabilise.
June 4th, 2009 at 4:24 am
Interesting to see the NYT perspective on our trade.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/world/asia/03australia.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=world
June 4th, 2009 at 4:41 am
If i may chime in and ask a question regarding Inflation.
Living in the US currently, it may be hard to believe, but the reality of the situation here is stinging and seams to be sinking in. Specifically, i mean from a consumer perspective.
One thing i note that is interesting is how with the multitudes of media avaialable, in a way Americans are ‘waking up’ in regards to there spending habits. This can be seen no more clearly than on the fashion strips of New York, where currently if gamely employed, there are some bagains to be had. Deflation is in full swing.
The main reason seems to be that, even though credit had started to flow again, people are saving and only spending on smaller items.
http://www.latimes.com/la-me-westsideecon2-2009jun02,0,1969353.story
So, my question is whether or not the US consumer may have leant there leason and for the long term future, might actually change there spending habits/debt consumption to a more sustanable level. Therefore, what are they doing with there excess cash that the FED is injecting – saving it and paying off personal debt. For me this is deflationary?
Steve, help me understand!?
June 4th, 2009 at 8:08 am
My observation is that nobody has learned anything from the GFC in any country including China. Just by reflating the bubble you will not achieve sustainable growth when resources are limited and diminishing.
The only use for the factory where Hummers are made is to grow champignons not to keep making these useless devices burning petrol for nothing. So why did the Chinese buy the factory – just because they had too much money? Or because the engines can be used in their military trucks?
No, because they want to keep making these portable temples of overconsumption.
Some people still live in the stone age if they like fire and smoke they should have a barbecue not to burn petrol in a Hummer car.
What is 5% or 10% drop in consumption? The decent level of consumption is in countries having 50% lower GDP like in Central Europe. I saw 30% drop in GDP in 1988/1990 in Poland from the level several times lower than it’s there now. There were soup kitchens and everyone survived. You fret about GDP or consumer prices? Think about the unemployment and social dislocation in the USA. There is no proper social security in the US and this is a serious problem not GDP falling by 5% or 10% or even 15%. So if prices go up by 5% instead of buying a new plasma TV every year it will be a year and two weeks?
You guys have to ditch your sick concept of neoliberal society where only “growth” of consumption prevents certain social groups from sinking into third world poverty.
This GFC is a social problem and a political one. Only to some extent it is a real economical problem in terms of satisfying real (not fake) human needs. Barack Obama wants to make more efficient cars and to reform health care. Good on him. But he is not going to address the underlying problem which is the consumerism – the religion of waste. America as a Christian nation? This is a sick joke.
Since concad has already posted this link I feel free to re-post it here again. Please read the document and its conclusions before jumping on me for offending again the Golden Bull.
http://www.csiro.au/files/files/plje.pdf
June 4th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Steve,
I think your article on the budget gives an excellent insight into the Treasury budget process, highlighting just how flawed it was. It is interesting to see just how the wrong economic model must lead to wrong results. I’d like to comment on another aspect that no doubt was at play; you’ve alluded to this in your remark “Therefore the Budget’s projections come down to hope”.
During my business career I was involved in many corporate budgets in different organisations. I found that the top management of companies based in the US put a lot of pressure on all levels of management to make an ambitious budget, so that they will be ‘stretched’ to achieve it. Then when there is an actual shortfall there is a reminder that they ‘made a commitment’ to get to certain numbers, placing middle management under pressure to ‘make budget’ one way or another. (Maybe this tendency is one of the reasons so much ‘toxic’ material is found within organisations?)
Organisations with headquarters in Australia on the other hand vary between a desire to have a realistic budget and one that can be achieved relatively easily. (Many years ago I gave a speech to a group of accountants warning them to guard against managers using the budget as an ‘alibi for inefficiency’.)
Whichever motivation applies it is inevitable that personal preferences or prejudices play a role in the budget setting process, whether this is in a business or government. Every budget depends on assumptions about future outcomes and people will inevitably feed their own ‘desired outcome’ into the assumptions; whether this is consciously or subconsciously.
Typically a business budget is built from the bottom up, within a high level framework, with each level of management developing their set of numbers. These are then added together to form the whole; a bit like Henry’s decomposition of GDP. I have found it useful to do a reality check on the overall outcome (a smidgin more than a back-of-the-envelope exercise), which can sometimes reveal that reality got lost in the process; a case of counting many trees and not seeing the forest).
To a degree, presenting a range of scenarios and hence different outcomes, as you mention, can be more informative, however there will be (and should be) a ‘most likely’ scenario, so realism in developing the budget is still important.
In summary, based on your article it is clear that the Treasury’s budget is next to useless because it is founded on the wrong economic model, but I think it is likely that even with a better model, personal (perhaps politically driven) assumptions could still produce a flawed outcome. That’s why a ‘high level’ reality check with a smaller number of broad variables can be very useful.
June 4th, 2009 at 8:33 am
scepticus:
I’ve read the Weimar hyperinflation article that you’ve posted. After reading that, I have this question: If currency speculation is the sole and complete explanation for Weimar hyperinflation, then why not Japan? The carry trade, in a sense, is also a speculative short on the Yen too.
For a detailed quantitative study on the Weimar hyperinflation, I recommend “The Economics Of Inflation- A Study Of Currency Depreciation In Post War Germany”, written by Costantino Bresciani – Turroni, an economist who lived through the German Hyperinflation of the 1920s.
June 4th, 2009 at 8:56 am
contrarian, I’m not sure it is the complete explaination. I don’t have a good answer why it didn’t happen to japan. Perhaps the answer is that they managed to maintain a very strong export economy, and therefore were able to maintain confidence and ensure they could import necessities.
If this is the case japan may be first to go, if it was only their export strength holding up the vast quantities of yen they have created.
What is your reasoning as to why japan got away with it?
June 4th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Steve,
I am a builder of information systems. When considering the problem of water restrictions I hit upon the idea of Rewarding people who consumed little water but required them to invest their Rewards in ways to increase the water supply. I then worked out a design of how to implement this and we have built and commercialised one of the key components – namely identification of people receiving and spending rewards. http://www.greenid.com.au
I then proposed the same idea for Energy. That is we Reward people who consume little energy but we require them to invest their Rewards in ways to reduce green house gas emissions.
The problem was always where to get the money to fund the payment of Rewards.
Come the GFC and I realised that if the government issued zero interest Rewards to individuals and required them spend their Rewards on investments then we have a controlled reliable way of increasing the money supply.
To see a further description visit http://stableproductivemoney.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/amasset-an-economic-tool-for-managing-economies/
Issuing Rewards will not create debt yet it will increase the money supply.
By having many different “Rewards” systems (or as I call them now Amassets) we will have many methods of increasing the money supply. This is the equivalent of genetic diversity in money creation. (Amassets comes from Money to Assets with the a in front to sound like amassing it)
I believe if we use amassets instead of debt to increase the money available for trade and lending then it will put an end to financial instability because we will not have debt and money being “the same thing”.
I can build these systems quickly and they will be very inexpensive to run.
I think changing the way we increase the money supply by first building an asset will have a very large beneficial effect on our economic systems.
I would be most interested in your comments.
June 4th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Kevin,
I am happy you are breaking the “taboo” of not linking the GFC to wider sustainability issues.
The amasset system is in fact a system close to personal carbon permits but a bit more sophisticated and involving tracing behaviour of individuals and rewarding them rather than just reglamenting resource usage. Both involve usage of a paralell currency. Is this correct?
“If an individual does not want to spend their funds they can sell them for whatever the market will give them. This gives the authorities a measure of how much money can be spent to good advantage within each amasset.”
I would say that the best solution would be one the most palatable to the society.
June 4th, 2009 at 10:16 am
ak, I agree on consumerism – it’s killing us and it’s killing the rest of the planet. The amount of junk in even just a supermarket is astounding. Without a doubt the underlying cause of the GFC is cultural or, more broadly, human. Human activity is a necessary condition of the economy, yet this often seems to be completely overlooked. The mainstream discourse reifies the economy as the most worthy of persons and puts real people in it’s service. Completely arse-up.
June 4th, 2009 at 10:33 am
scepticus:
I don’t have a complete explanation regarding Japan yet.
As for the Weimar hyperinflation, the dominant theory was espoused by a guy named Helfferich,
Elsewhere, Costantino Bresciani – Turroni, wrote,
June 4th, 2009 at 10:38 am
In a disturbing parallel with today, the German mark was very unstable leading up to the hyperinflation. Today, the US dollar is quite volatile, from a strong US dollar months ago, to a weak US dollar today. That resulted in a mismatch between economic variable, or in Steve’s terminology, disequilibrium in multiple fronts of the economy simulatneously.
June 4th, 2009 at 10:39 am
P.S. When I said, “That resulted in a mismatch between economic variable, or in Steve’s terminology, disequilibrium in multiple fronts of the economy simulatneously.”, I meant the German Weimar economy, not the US economy.
June 4th, 2009 at 11:26 am
scepticus;
Your comment,
“So the question is when DO such policies become necessary. Steve suggests – not for many years.”
I read it this way. Whether it is necessary or not can be debateable. However, it is WHEN they do implement such policies (monetization and QE etc)that really matters.
When monetization and QE occurs against a backdrop of extreme Govt deficits and a fast escalation of (already massive) overall Govt debt , then those policies will have a considerable impact, if only in the beginning a very negative sentiment towards that sovereign and it’s debt paper.If allowed to deteriorate, where the soverign in effect loses control over expenditure, monetization/QE – or is seen to- then a bond and currency crisis can ensue.
In such a scenario described above, I don’t see low or declining demand trumping currency collapse as the primary driver to higher commodity prices as denominated in the currency of that country. Declining demand for commodities won’t matter if there is universal and fast flight from that currency, commodity prices in that country will rise.
I don’t know who is right, Marc or Steve. We all have our opinions. But my sense is that the current US debt issuance plans are understated probably deliberately and by a lot. More debt than forcasted- probably MUCH more- will need to be issued. Bernanke’s monetization plans this far wil be seen to be not providing the expected outcome. That and increasing rejection of US long bond purchases will result in more and higher levels of monetization.
The Fed/Treasury are feeling their way through here, balancing all the spinning plates while it tries to not spook it’s creditors, the Bond and currency markets while it’s printing presses are at work as it Bails out the nation. I think the USD Index , Gold and Oil are watching all this with a very sceptical and suspicious eye. Which is why , for now, it’s not easy to see a strong USD.
At best I think the US can achieve a wide trading range for the USD primarily because Europe and Japan are basket cases too. It is negative selection at work- of all the turds, the USD just happens to be the turd that floats-for now.
June 4th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
This is the type of investment strategy that supports higher PM prices;.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=email_en&sid=ajf0L9wTPq6Y
“Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Co., the third-largest U.S. life insurer by 2008 sales, has bought gold for the first time the company’s 152-year history to hedge against further asset declines. “Gold just seems to make sense; it’s a store of value,” Chief Executive Officer Edward Zore said in an interview following his comments at a conference hosted by Standard & Poor’s in Brooklyn. “In the Depression, gold did very, very well.”
“Northwestern Mutual has accumulated about $400 million in gold, and Zore said the price could double or even rise fivefold if the economy continues to weaken.”
“The downside risk is limited, but the upside is large,” Zore said. “We have stocks in our portfolio that lost 95 percent.” Gold “is not going down to $90.”
June 4th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Hi Macca,
What are PM prices?
June 4th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
PM prices are precious metal prices.
Is that what you meant?
June 4th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
BTB,
PM=Precious Metals
June 4th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
ak, nanks
Consumerism is a tremendous economic and social disease that has infected our society. If its effects could be somehow measured, it could possibly be one of the leading mental & social disorders. It is one of the most non-consensual cultures ever created.
Oddly enough, the advertising, marketing, and public relations that are used to sell commodities we don’t want and don’t need involve immense information asymmetries. Thus a great deal of the consumerism propaganda we are bombarded with can be dispensed with. Also, as every commodity is mispriced, negative externality taxes can be imposed to efficiently price commodities at their full social cost.
These two conservative measures would ensure a massive drop off of consumption to somewhere around its “proper” level. The problem, of course, is the economic fall-out of the decrease in consumption. Firms are supposed to respond to demand, not create it through high-pressure advertising, essentially shifting the demand curve out as far as possible.
As for temples and religion, it is often said that Australia is a secular society. I beg to differ. Religion has moved out of its traditional sector (churches) and into the state and private sectors.
There, those who worship the Holy State confidently inform us that government actions are always and everywhere noble, though perhaps it may stray at times. The religion in the private sector is probably more fundamentalist, with economists and businesspeople engaged daily in worship of the Invisible Hand (the transformed Holy Spirit). Unlike the Holy Spirit, the Invisible Hand has been disproved mathematically time and time again but this is of no importance to those who engage in the community of worship.
Emotionally potent oversimplifications such as “free markets”, “market enterprise” and “efficiency” are continually lauded by the economic priesthood, doubling as measures of public control. Neoclassicism incorporates the religious doctrine of submission to the masters of the system of public subsidy, private profit.
For an overview of this religion, Steve has an excellent talk: http://www.debunking-economics.com/Talks/Wowsernomics.mp3
June 4th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
BTB
Macca’s link on gold reminds me to ask you a question. Previously you said that you thought that the gold price will fall (if I remember correctly with US$650 a likely low). I agree that in the short to medium term a drop in price is likeley and the technical support is somewhere between $640 and $680, so your target seems about right.
However, what is your view about gold further out, say a year, two or three from now? I guess that question also requires a view on the US dollar, it would have to fall to give a major lift to gold.
It’s interesting to toss around Edward Zore’s point that stocks (and proabably property too) can fall substantially, whilst the reward/risk ratio for gold is much better. How about a worst case scenario of a fall in gold to $255, the low point in 1999; could it get worse than that in your view? If not, and the upside is a doubling or trebling in price in the long run, it would make good odds. Is a doubling or trebling in price a strong likelihood in your view (perhaps following an ultimate collapse in the USD due to too much QE or simply a complete blow-up of the economy)?
Any thoughts on this?
June 4th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
This is another very interesting chart;
http://www.comstockfunds.com/files/NLPP00000/026a.pdf
Do we think stocks are too expensive?
June 4th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Otto C and BTB,
As you will probably know there is an alternative view on gold from an Elliottwave-influenced perspective due to Alf Field – http://www.freebuck.com/articles/afield/081126afield.htm – who has a different analysis of the gold wave pattern to date and seems to have some credibility. He thinks the $700 low won’t be re-tested.
(Sorry to gold-bug the discussion everyone else – though perhaps this is relevant to Keenist versus Farberite positions on the $US).
Bill.
June 4th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Hi Otto,
I still believe that gold is headed lower. I cannot predict an ultimate downside yet. But my min downside is $650.
Looking at the long term charts for precious metals. I reckon they will make a major low sometime in the next 2 to 4 years.
After that I expect a new bull market to commence. A new bull market does not mean $10,000 for gold. What it means is that the trend will be predominantly up (with intermittent retracements) for many years after that low.
June 4th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
a link to some “bond market” information, entitled “The Ascent of Money”
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/netw/200906/programs/ZX0064A002D4062009T203000.htm
Hi all,
As a mere mortal in the world of economics I have been struggling to understand the role of bonds and the bond market and consequently much of these fine discussions go straight over my head, preventing me from making any personal analysis of the arguments. Then I stumbled onto this link – showing on ABC tv in Australia tonight.
If anyone does watch, can you report back on whether the info is accurate/useful?
bye for now.
June 5th, 2009 at 1:08 am
contrarian, thanks for the answers above – I’m finding this discussion useful, so let’s continue…
Also macca, a question for you – your hypothesis makes much sense, however it will be strengthened if you can extend it to cover whey japan failed to experience hyperinflation – ‘the exception that proves the rule’.
Regarding the weimar problems, why was it that if the hyperinflation was due in part to vital good scarcity driving inflation in the post war years, that the nazi reichsmark managed to revive the economy – presumably during continued difficult economic conditions persisting throughout the 30′s (being in the middle of the GD and all)?
Next a general theory of hyperinflation should address zimbabwe – which on the face of it seems to be a straightforward case of government madness and outright money printing.
So to conclude it would be useful to draw zimbabwe, japan, weimar and the nazi economy together to look at common and un-common factors in the fundamentals of all these situations.
June 5th, 2009 at 2:15 am
Once I satrted digging, I quickly found an article suggesting Japan is first for hyperinflation.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article10738.html
“May 18, 2009 – 07:40 PM
By: DailyWealth
Economics
Best Financial Markets Analysis ArticleTom Dyson writes: Mrs. Watanabe is dumping the yen. According to a story from Bloomberg this week, Japanese businessmen, housewives, and pensioners are dumping the yen against foreign currencies, especially the Australian dollar, the New Zealand dollar, and the euro. Women control the family finances in the typical Japanese household, so the international media has nicknamed the Japanese individual investor “Mrs. Watanabe.”
Bloomberg says Mrs. Watanabe is now short 153,326 contracts against the yen. That’s 35 times the short interest on March 4, the day the dumping began. There’s so much excess saving in Japan, the country’s interest rates are miniscule. Right now, the interest rate on a one-year CD is Japan is 0.25%. Compare Japanese rates to foreign rates: The Aussie dollar yields 3%. The Brazilian real yields 10.25%.
…
Here’s the thing: The Japanese government is broke and can’t pay back its debts. I think the gargantuan fall in the yen comes when Mrs. Watanabe figures out Japan’s government will never pay back the $7 trillion she loaned it.”
Also another article in a similar vein:
http://www.meltingpotproject.com/mpp/how-hyperinflation-will-hit-america.html
June 5th, 2009 at 10:52 am
scepticus,
“Regarding the weimar problems, why was it that if the hyperinflation was due in part to vital good scarcity driving inflation in the post war years, that the nazi reichsmark managed to revive the economy – presumably during continued difficult economic conditions persisting throughout the 30’s (being in the middle of the GD and all)?”
The hyperinflation occured in 1919-1923 not only in Germany but also in Poland and Hungary.
They introduced hard currency in Germany in 1923. The Nazis come to power in 1933 as a consequence of the crisis and deflation.
“The stock market crash of 1929 on Wall Street marked the beginning of the Great Depression. The effects of the ensuing world economic crisis were also felt in Germany, where the economic situation rapidly deteriorated. In July 1931, the Darmstätter und Nationalbank – one of the biggest German banks – failed, and, in early 1932, the number of unemployed rose to more than 6,000,000.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany
I don’t have time for a more thorough analysis but I strongly advice to become more familiar with the official interpretation of history before considering conspiracy theories.
In 1919 situation was completely different than in 1933.
June 5th, 2009 at 11:05 am
correction – hyperinflation in Germany started in 1921.
It started in Poland earlier due to the war with Soviet Russia 1919-1920 and the budget deficit (which reached 155% in 1921 after winning the war).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation
June 5th, 2009 at 11:57 am
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-j-panzner/holes-in-the-china-recove_b_211054.html
China’s economic performance may not be all it’s cracked up to be.
June 5th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
MACCA,
There is an even more interesting story unfolding right now. The collapse of Ukraine – 23% GDP drop, the Russians playing hard ball. The govt of Ukraine banned publishing statistics there.
(And this is probably the best solution to GFC anyway)
You won’t read about it in Englisg speaking media. I can translate the news in the evening.
June 5th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
MACCA and others.
Does GDP meen very much anyway. The OZ GDP rose is the last quarter! We have a “not technical recession”. LOL
This was put down to the fact that we had a rare trade surplus. But the current account was stil in deficit leaving the 34 year loosing streak unbroken. It appears that this Metric called GDP can be borrowed and still counted as a nett asset! LOL
If the fuel guage on my car was behaving like this I would get a new one.
GDP and GDP “growth” or should that be something called “groath” is a joke and we need to find a new, valid metric. The neo classicals do not seem worried about this demonstating their collective stupidity.
June 5th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
“Brightspark” you are too generous!! “neo classicals do not seem…” Me thinks it is becoming ridiculous the way the ‘mass media’ is now behaving!! 1984! has arrived!(or maybe the ‘movie: “V for victory” Scary Stuff!! now!!
Next headline will be: R
June 5th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
“Recession Over!!” Let us all rejoice!!
June 5th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
BrightSpark1,
Outside of a RIO or BHP boardroom , Australian’s are in a recession.That is all that can be said of the 1Q2009 GDP figure.
Moreover, those ore shipments that got the GDP figure over line included substantial speculative orders by brokers and middlemen rather than demand from mills. The Govt is trying to clamp down on speculation but is having problems. In any case , a recovery it is not.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,25588476-5005200,00.html
“The government-controlled China Iron and Steel Association has completed a detailed investigation into the stockpile, which triggered alarm bells with China’s leaders earlier this year as volumes started to quickly mount but demand for steel stayed flat.”
http://www.chinamining.org/News/2009-05-15/1242347700d24689.html
“Customs data showed that six of the top 10 iron ore importers in the first quarter were traders, compared with an average of two or three.”
June 5th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
ak,
I found the “meltingpotproject” article posted by scepticus above an interesting read. It speculates that after a dollar rally (BTB?)there ensues a fiat currency meltdown with origins beginning in Eastern Europe , leading to global competitive currency devaluations and then commodity hyperinflation.
It articulates much further along the lines of what I was thinking when I wrote this;
“At best I think the US can achieve a wide trading range for the USD primarily because Europe and Japan are basket cases too. It is negative selection at work- of all the turds, the USD just happens to be the turd that floats-for now.”
Meaning the main thing helping the USD presently (besides reserve status) is the poor state of Europe and Japan.
If *negative selection* of paper currencies in general reaches the extremes of meltingpotprojects scenario, this then will truly be a global inflation flame out of epic proportions.
The Miseans will be proved right as gold prices (in fiat currency) will go ballistic?
June 5th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
The problem’s actually more complex. If I had time I’d whack up a post, but I’m trying to steal some time to work on my book.
Briefly, the “textbook” definition of GDP is:
GDP = C+I+G+X-M
“GDP equals consumption plus investment plus government spending plus exports minus imports”
M fell by 9 billion, X (more on this in a sec) fell by 3 billion, so there was a +6 billion turnaround in the “net exports contribution to GDP” (as it’s known).
Now for a healthily growing economy, all 5 factors would be increasing–including imports, since lots of the C+I+G are spent purchasing them. But suddenly spending on imports has dropped $9 billion in a quarter–that’s over 2% of GDP. That implies that spending has dropped, not risen. This is not what I call a sustainable “growth” pattern.
Secondly, the “increase” in exports that was spruiked when the GDP figures came out. The GDP figure is a “real” measure: the ABS has survey info on nominal output, and then produces the real by deflating it (which produces what is known as the chain-weighted GDP figure). So they take actual dollar amounts and divide them by a range of price indices to generate the real GDP figure, which attempts to quantify the actual level in output.
Since we are a large exporter, the export price index is obviously important. This is normally revised by the ABS every June, to reflect changes in annual contract prices that are normally settled in April.
For some reason, they used the revised price index in this quarter’s figures–one quarter earlier than normal. These revised contracts have much lower prices–up to 40% falls for some commodities–so the resulting price index was much lower. (Thanks to Gerard Minack of Morgan Stanley for the detective work on this).
Divide a known dollar figure for coal exports by a smaller estimated price index and what do you get? A dramatic increase in the volume of coal exports… In fact, the exported tonnage probably fell significantly (this could be calculated by adding up all the reported tonnages, but since the ABS GDP survey works at the higher level of aggregation of dollars produced [and disaggregation would mean recording dollars of brown coal, dollars of coking coal, blah blah... and deflating each separately] this isn’t an option for them.
This explains the “huh” factor of the very next day’s announcement that we had gone from a substantial trade surplus to a deficit. How does that tally with the “increase” in exports in the GDP figures? The trade deficit is the dollar value of exports minus the dollar value of imports–there is no “price deflating” going on.
So putting this all together, the probable outcome for real output in the last quarter was a fall of over 2% (looking just at C+I+G+X).
June 5th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
MACCA,
I think that the size of these Eastern European economies which are really sick is too small to start a meltdown. Sick are Lativia, Ukraine, to some extent Hungary and Slovakia. Not Poland though. Poland is doing quite well.
The political background of the conflict in Ukraine is coralling Ukrainians back to the Russian political backyard.
More on this:
http://www.smh.com.au/world/help-ukraine-pay-for-gas-or-its-cut-off-again-putin-warns-west-20090604-bx9z.html
and more:
http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2009/06/04/ukraine_economy_down_21_percent_in_q1/
I will need to spend several hours on reading so I may post another update on this tonight or tomorrow.
June 5th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Thanks very much for the clarification Steve.
The ABS is simply an adjunct of the modern version of Orwell’s Ministry of Truth (MoT).
It is neutered by political spin and coersion. Much like Treasury. Desperate measures for desperate times.
June 5th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
The Outback Oracle,
“Don’t underestimate the degree to which Asians think ahead. They are quite prepared to sacrifice personal consumption for benefits arising in 20 years time.”
You make some valid points.
Although, the relevance and nuinsece of my point has more to do with a critique of the development model that Governments of the Asian ecomonic region have implemented post WWII. Please let me explain.
The Asian economic development model has, and is still, focused on running current account surpluses.
For this region to maintain current account surpluses, they *must* be, by definition, producing more goods & services in excess of what they are willing to consume. This is an indisputable truism.
Governments of this region have adhered to policy stances that have suppressed, or at least, not provided the necessary conditions to enable their domestic market consumption to flourish. Whilst in equal time, the Asian development model has focused on the development of the regions export industries.
This policy stance has resulted in the successful expansion of the regions industrial productive capacity, for the sole purpose of increasing the supply of tradable goods and services to its trading partners.
This stance, amongst many other less dominant factors, has manifested enormous trade and competitive imbalances between the various trading nations. These trading and competitive imbalances are particularly prevalent between the US and PRC, although the US and PRC are not on their own here.
Moreover, it is the automatic consequence of the PRC’s need for the US to absorb its vast manufacturing overcapacity. Nothing scares the mandarins of Beijing more than the idea that the US might undergo, or even force, a sharp reduction in its trade deficit with the PRC which, of course, would have the automatic impact of forcing the PRC lending to the US to collapse, as well as, collapsing their own export industry at the same time. The two are inextricably linked.
Whilst, China continues with such policies that maintain current account surpluses by supressing the RMB’s appreciation, they must continue to purchase USD denominated assets, if they do not wish to have the RMB appreciate significantly against the USD. This is an indisputable truism.
The PRC can of course purchase all manner of foreign assets that foreign governments will allow. There are, of course restrictions on what, and how much of what, foreign agents are able to invest in. This is nothing new nor ominus.
The PRC, are taking advantage of price declines, by divesting their USD reserves, through stock piling raw commodities. Although this activity is ephemeral in nature. Further, they appear to be purchasing non-USD denominated assets around the world, some of which are in our back yard. Please see:
”
SAFE’s Foray on Aussie Bank Assets Puzzles Market
By CSC staff, Published: January 08,2008
Related articles
A 200 million USD investment of China’s foreign reserves by the State Administration of Foreign Exchange has come as a surprise to international financial markets. How China will deal with its 1.5 trillion USD foreign reserve has been a mystery lately and small part of that mystery has just been answered. And it wasn’t as most people expected.
SAFE, through its Hong Kong-based subsidiary ‘SAFE Investment Company,’ purchased a minority stakes in three of Australia’s biggest banks — a 1% stake of both Australia & New Zealand Bank (AZZB) and Commonwealth Bank of Australia (CBA), and nearly 0.33% of the total stake of National Australia Bank — altogether at a cost of 200 million Australia dollars (USD 176 million)….”
http://www.chinastakes.com/article.aspx?id=138
A point to note, here, regarding central bank reserves is that they are *intended* to act as a buffer to counter currency shocks. This is, definitely, not the intended purpose of the PBoC $USD 2T reserve portfolio. When the PBoC goes off purchasing assets that can not be readily liqudated, and as such, go against the raison d’etre for accumulating currency reserves, then this accumulation of “reserves” has been garnered under impropriety.
This policy stance of reserves accumulation by PBoC, can not, and will not continue forever. At some point, the PRC will willingly, or through coercive uni-lateral measures taken by the US, alter its policy.
The PRC is still, at this very moment, running a current account surplus with the US, although significantly diminished to that of the recent past. The US consumer has taken the first step in this readjustment. Although, it is to early to say, whether the consumer retrenchment, on its own, is sufficient to cause the PRC to alter its long-term policy stance or merely continue its attempt to “get blood out of a stone”, through further currency depreciation. Time will tell.
It will be clearly evident, when the PRC has altered its policy stance to allow the RMB to appreciate with respect to the USD. This adjustment will likely not be sudden, rather a gradual readjustment that will be agreed upon between the PRC and USG. For both the fait of the US and that of PRC are intimately tied together.
The only other alternative is for the US to attempt to compete with PRC and offer PRC tradable goods & services that the the PRC desires over and above those that PRC can offer the US. This will not be an easy course to steer.
The dominant financial risk that the PRC may face, isn’t the risk that the USG won’t honor its Treasuries. Rather, it is the risk that the USD will eventually depreciate against the RMB, reducing the RMB value of PBoC’s Reserve portfolio.
The current rhetoric from the PRC mandarins suggests that there is a lack of commitment to any policy change. Take for example:
“China to Take Steps to Boost Exports; Will Keep Currency Stable
By Bloomberg News
May 27 (Bloomberg) — China’s State Council, or Cabinet, said the government will take steps to boost exports while keeping the country’s currency “basically stable,” the state television reported today.
Falling exports are the biggest challenge for the world’s third-largest economy, the council said.
China introduced a 4 trillion-yuan ($586 billion) stimulus package last year as exports slumped and economic growth slowed. Maintaining external demand can create favorable conditions for employment, businesses and domestic consumption, China Central Television said today, citing a council meeting headed by Premier Wen Jiabao.
The nation will keep its currency “basically stable at a reasonable and balanced level,” the council said, without elaborating.
China will take all measures to stabilize overseas demand as shrinking exports are the nation’s biggest challenge, “currently and for some period of time in the future,” the council said.
The government will focus on exports involving intensive labor and advanced technology, according to the report.
The government will arrange $84 billion in short-term export credit insurance for 2009, the council said. The coverage of export credit insurance will also be expanded, it said.
China will allocate additional funds to support exporter guarantees, according to the report. About $10 billion will be set aside as credit for the export industry in 2009, the state television said, without elaborating.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a_eNXWnQtdcg
June 5th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
iconoclast,
I agree with your observations however I don’t understand what’s wrong with what they are doing.
“Governments of this region have adhered to policy stances that have suppressed, or at least, not provided the necessary conditions to enable their domestic market consumption to flourish.”
Why should they enable that consumption? I would argue that Asian culture is about moderation in consumption. It is also about accumulation. “To be rich is glorious.”
I think that they are right. We are wrong.
Obviously there might be some problems caused by the trade imbalance but I think they are well aware that maybe 20 or 30 years of cheap commodities are left and then the party is over. They want to build as much infrastructure and real wealth as they can over the next 20 years and start worrying about the consumption later.
American consumers will be tossed away as an empty eggshell at some point in the future. So what?
June 5th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Ak,
I agree, in part, with you’re conclusions as well.
My analysis is more of an attempt to reach conclusions on how these dynamics will play-out using organons of logic, rather than an attempt to make a moral judgment call.
Although, in some instances when the rules of “fair” trade, are not bent, but broken, then we have an outcome that is for all concerned a race to the bottom.
On the one hand, the leading proponent countries of laissez-faire free-market ideology, who chose the rules, have had it shoved right back down their throats.
Having said the above, the Asian development model did produce more goods & services than what the region had been prepared to consume.
So the question is why did they produce more than what they were prepared to consume?
This point on its own, suggest that it has nothing to do with their culture of saving, but their choice of over producing above their own desire to consume and to export the balance to their trading partners.
Now given the raison d’etre of the existing economic system is based on the culture of consumption they were able to find ready markets prepared to consume their tradable goods. If that were not the case, there would be no reason to attempt this policy.
I conclude the economic model based on consumption, and in some countries, over consumption, is at the heart of the problem.
June 6th, 2009 at 12:22 am
Many of you might be interested int this,
http://www.newscientist.com/special/can-science-reinvent-economy
June 6th, 2009 at 12:59 am
Hi scepticus!
Actually, the Nazis did not issue the Reichmark. What happened was that the Germans replaced the hyperinflated Papiermark with the Rentenmark in Nov 1923, which was backed by mortgaged land and industrial goods. That Rentenmark was just an intermediate currency and wasn’t legal tender. The Reichsmark become the new legal tender in August 1924.
So, the hyperinflation ended long before the Nazis came into power. Here comes the interesting facts of what happened,
The stabilisation of the German currency happened in spite of monetary inflation. There’s no conclusive explanation in the book though.
June 7th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
iconoclast
The US military is also dependent on foreign held US dollars being repatriated via purchasing treasuries. The very weird thing is that the US could not fund its military without trade deficits. I think china is going to tire funding its rival’s military soon.
I don’t think it was just the Asians holding down consumption. The US knew they could take advantage of the dollar reserve status by spending like crazy overseas, military bases and trade deficits, and the money would come back to them to spend again. It was a massive free ride and the US took it. The top 10% got extremely rich and the rest are up shit creek without social security and health care.
June 13th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
ak,
Just noticed your comment. Yes what you say is correct. I have just put in a submission on funding the National Broadband Network which you can see here.
http://stableproductivemoney.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/submission-to-national-broadband-network-greenfields/
I am trying to find better ways to explain what is proposed. Another way is that we stop banks issuing loans that are backed by other loans as the way to increase the money supply. We use amassets (or something similar) that guarantees that when we increase the money supply there is something tangible backing it.