In May 1973, dissatisfaction over the teaching of economics at the University of Sydney went from a festering sore amongst the staff only to an outright revolt by a minority of the staff, and a majority of the students. In 1975, a new Department of Political Economy had its first intake into Economics I(P). Thirty four years later, it is still going. Professor Frank Stilwell, who has lived this dispute since 1970, is launching Political Economy Now!, a history of the dispute, next Tuesday at Sydney University’s Fisher Library (May 5th, 5.30pm, Level 5).
A major impetus here, as I note in Debunking Economics, was a lecture by the then newly appointed Dr Frank Stilwell which explained a concept known as the “theory of the second best“. Developed in the 1950s by Canadian economist Richard Lipsey and Australian-American economist Kelvin Lancaster, this theory argued that a single movement closer to what economic theory described as a better world could in fact reduce welfare rather than increasing it (Lipsey, R. G. and K. Lancaster (1956). “The General Theory of Second Best.” The Review of Economic Studies 24(1): 11-32).
Frank’s explanation of the theory involved a labour market in which a monopoly supplier of labour (a trade union) was negotiating with a concentrated buyer of labour (a major firm or perhaps an oligopolistic cartel). Unqualified neoclassical economics argued that the trade union would reduce welfare by forcing employers to pay a wage that exceeded the (marginal) productivity of the workers. Welfare would therefore be increased if the union was abolished–and this argument is the major reason that neoclassical economists are so generally anti-union.
But Frank pointed out that the same model that argued that trade unions alone would set wages “too high”–compared to the neoclassical measure of social welfare–led to the conclusion that a monopoly buyer (or “monopsony”) of labour facing disorganised workers would result in wages that were “too low” compared to that same measure. On the other hand, with both unions and monopsony buyers of labour present, the wage would end up somewhere between these two extremes.
So abolishing the union–or drastically weakening its capacity to bargain while doing nothing to reduce the power of the buyers of labour–would actually reduce welfare. The standard anti-union line that many neoclassical economists (and conservative politicians influenced by them) trot out is therefore not supported by a more general neoclassical perspective.
This caveat to the standard “Economics 101″ anti-union position is not something that students normally encounter until well into their Honours or even PhD education. By then, most students who have delved that deeply into the neoclassical mindset can’t see any other way to think about the economy. They either ignore “curlies” like this one (and many, many others), or they take the zealot’s approach (“we should abolish monopolies as well–hey, let’s form a Consumer and Competition Commission to campaign for just that”), or they accept patently absurd assumptions to sidestep obvious problems in applying neoclassical economic theory to the real world.
Having learnt this particular curly “out of sequence”, I was instead struck with how fragile the theory was: admit one aspect of reality–that there are both unions and concentrated buyers of labour–and a straightforward proposition from the theory is turned on its head. That didn’t strike me as a particularly robust theory: a robust one would instead need just some attenuation of its conclusions as more realism was introduced, not a wholesale “Do the opposite of the advice given in the simplest case if its conditions don’t apply precisely in the real world”.
My disenchantment with economic theory grew as I learnt more, so that I dropped out of the Honours stream in second year, and ultimately played a leading role in the dispute that erupted in 1973. At the year’s end, I was one of two students who were invited to address the Faculty of Economics when it met to consider whether there should be an Inquiry into the Department of Economics (the other was Richard Osborne).
Despite our victory at Sydney University, neoclassical economics grew even more dominant as the years wore on, something that both perplexed and worried me (and many others who developed a career in academic economics while refusing to worship at the neoclassical altar). How could something so wrong be so successful? We knew that the grounds on which its many interventions in public policy–from competition policy to industrial relations to macroeconomic management and monetary policy–were shonky. How come the economy nonetheless seemed to be booming?
The answer, as is now becoming obvious to everyone except diehard neoclassical economists, was that underlying this apparent economic prosperity was a growing pile of debt. Economic prosperity now was being borrowed from the future, as a mountain of debt was accumulated, and the money generated by it spent on an orgy of speculation on share and property markets.
Fortunately, as well as rejecting neoclassical economics, I had also become a fan of Hyman Minsky’s “financial instability hypothesis”. In my PhD I constructed biology and engineering-inspired mathematical models of Minsky’s hypothesis that, unfortunately, proved to be very accurate predictors of what the ultimate outcome of this speculative bubble would be.
In doing this work, I have moved light years away from neoclassical economics, but also some distance from what Political Economy has become. The faux-mathematics practiced by neoclassical economics persuaded a lot of critics that mathematics was part of the problem, but I was always of the mind that neoclassical economics either used the wrong mathematics–algebra and comparative statics versus differential equations and dynamic analysis–or made mathematical errors, or both. Since Political Economy has shied away from mathematics, I therefore stand somewhat outside my old stamping ground these days.
But I wouldn’t be who I am, nor could I have made the contributions that I have to economics, without those beginnings in the stirring days of the early 1970s. So I owe a great debt to Political Economy at Sydney University, one I am happy to acknowledge.
Unfortunately, I won’t be able to attend the book launch next week–I am already committed to attending a workshop with the CSIRO on melding dynamic models of the ecology with the same from economics. But I’ll be there in spirit as Frank Stilwell, Evan Jones, Gavan Butler and many “once-were-activists” ex-students commemorate a proud entry in the larrikin history of Australian economics. If you’re interested in the story, and especially if you were part of it, see if you can make it along to the launch:
- Location: Syney University Fisher Library, Level 5
- Date: Tuesday May 5th
- RSVP: by Friday 1 May 2009 to events@sup.usyd.edu.au or 02 9036 9958
- Start Time: 17:30
Frank invited myself and several other leading activists from that time to write some reflections on Political Economy for the book. My entry is reproduced below.
From Activist to Associate Professor…
Like many of those who got involved in the Political Economy struggle at Sydney University, I began as a believer in what I simply thought was economics. There is a first year tutorial paper, hopefully long lost, in which I bemoan the existence of both monopolies and trade unions.
Such naivety did not last. In late 1971, one Frank Stilwell drove an intellectual bulldozer through it with an untimely illustration during a First Year of the “theory of the second best” (in a “proper” economics education, such things are really best left to graduate school when the few survivors are fully committed to neoclassisicm). Learning about this wrinkle on the seemingly flawless neoclassical skin shook my world view substantially (with a little bit of help from the Vietnam Moratorium), and the second thing I did after signing on for a vacation job was to join the union.
The following year, along with a newfound radical friend Richard Fields, I organised (if that is the right word!) a “Radical Economics” conference. It was attended by a handful, with the Henry George League making up a sizeable fraction of the audience and only Bruce McFarlane providing any real intellectual spark.
As my “gut-feeling” disgust for economics grew, I became progressively more disillusioned both with economics and with the bulk of my fellow students, who seemed to tolerate this bunk (though they, like me, chatted away all through Professor Simkin’s incredibly boring 2nd Year Macroeconomics lectures). Attempts to challenge the staff on the “hidden assumptions” of economics met with friendship from a minority who would, some time later, form the nucleus of the Political Economy Department, but outright hostility from the majority (notably the main 1st Year Microeconomics lecturer, whom we had long ago nicknamed Mean Mr Mustard Man after his peculiar taste in clothing). It seemed that this mediocre hegemony — that I now knew to call “neoclassical” — would forever dominate economics forever.
All that changed in 1973, when the Philosophy Department at Sydney University initiated a strike over the University’s refusal to endorse a new subject on “Philosophical Aspects of Feminist Thought”. As then President of the Arts Society (my degree was Arts/Law, not Economics) and therefore an ex-officio member of the Faculty of Arts, I took an active role in this at both official and street protest level, and found the vigour of the Philosophy students a welcome contrast to the passivity I thought characterised their Economic colleagues.
All this changed when Gavan Butler informed me that students in Frank’s 1st Year lecture had voted to strike in sympathy with Philosophy. The aura of passivity had only been one of resignation: like me, many were fed up with the pseudo-numerate nonsense that permeated our subjects, and leapt at the chance to do something to change it.
A lunchtime meeting about “The Problem in Economics” drew over 450 students. While we ranted, little direction existed until an until-then unknown Government student, Richard Osborne, sprang to his feet to suggest that we should organise a “Day of Protest”. Over ten per cent of the audience volunteered to help, and though we didn’t quite realise it then, the Political Economy Movement was born.
The Day of Protest was a huge success from the moment that Bill Nichol’s 25 metre banner was strung out across the Merewether Building. The adrenalin rush of the event gave our protest a momentum that pushed through a Faculty vote to investigate the affairs of the Department of Economics. We also developed an alternative economics curriculum that became Political Economy I (in response to a challenge from Professor Hogan to “do better” if we didn’t like the current syllabus). And, though we didn’t appreciate it at the time, we gave birth to a tradition of student activism that, while it has waxed and waned at times, has lived on for fully thirty years. That is a remarkable achievement.
Looking back on those days from my position as an Associate Professor of Economics & Finance, I think we did only one thing wrong. Because so much of the nonsense of neoclassical economics is dressed up in apparently sophisticated mathematical dress, we identified mathematics and rigorous analysis as at least part of “the enemy”.
Knowing what I know today, I realise that it was not real mathematics but appallingly bad mathematics that clothed this naked emperor of the social sciences. It of course remains true that much of economics cannot be put into mathematical form, as Hugh Stretton’s Economics makes clear with its plea for “barefoot economists”. But truly rigorous mathematics demolishes neoclassical economics, while modern mathematics and computing offer the possibility of a truly dynamic economics that can at least partially explain the behaviour of the unstable economic system in which we live.
Thirty years on, the battle to develop that real economics is still an uphill one. The majority of economists still fall prey to the seductive ideology of neoclassicism, while only a handful of the perhaps 20 per cent of academic economists who are non-neoclassical have the intellectual armory needed to develop an alternative. They struggle on with limited funding while comparative abundance is wasted on those who continue to push the prevailing paradigm forward.
So is the PE struggle ultimately futile? No: we know so much more now about the deficiencies of neoclassical economics than we knew thirty years ago, and perhaps economic circumstances will one day give us the opportunity to shake the hegemony as Keynes tried to do seventy years ago. Until that day, we can at least revel in poking fun at the naked emperor.
A footnote: How true that last paragraph turned out to be
Upon re-reading that last paragraph–”perhaps economic circumstances will one day give us the opportunity to shake the hegemony as Keynes tried to do seventy years ago”–I was curious about when I could have written it.
Some books take a long time to go from idea to hard copy: I penned those lines on January 1st 2003.
The statement itself underscores why this struggle was and is important, and why also it had no chance of success until the economy itself was in crisis. Though there were plenty of anti-capitalist radical amongst those who campained for Political Economy, the unifying theme of the movement was that neoclassical economics was bad theory. Just as following a bad theory of navigation–such as Ptolemy’s earth-centric view of the universe–can lead a ship into disaster, following bad economic theory ultimately had to lead to an economic calamity.
But just as it’s hard to convince a believer that the earth-centric model of the universe is false until his ship is wrecked on a reef that his model says wasn’t there, we couldn’t convince the wider world of the errors in neoclassical thought until the economy itself was in crisis. We have now hit that economic reef, and therefore the opportunity to reform economics is finally with us.
It is an opportunity that I have no intention of wasting–hence the formation of this blog, and the public information and policy campaign I have waged over debt. But it’s one that could pass us by too, as it did in the 1930s, when Keynes’s attempt to reformulate economics without Say’s Law was undermined by Hicks’s reinterpretation of Keynes as a neoclassical “marginalist”. Academic economics is incredibly resistant to reform, and left to their own devices, economics departments will go on teaching neoclassical economics and attempt to develop “a neoclassical Minsky” as they once concocted “a neoclassical Keynes”.
There can be no such creature. Essential aspects of Minsky’s theory–especially his direct incorporation of uncertainty, and his vision of destabilising forces so that no equilibrium will ever persist–are utterly antithetical to the neoclassical way of thinking. But I have no doubt that there will be attempts to reformulate his ideas in a neoclassical guise.
For that reason, my main argument for the reform of academic economists is to remove the monopoly that economics departments currently have over the word “economics”. Let Engineering and Physics and Biology and Sociology and Psychology departments teach Economics as well–and label it as such. With their very different foundations, there is a prospect that in those courses a new, realistic, dynamic approach to economics will finally evolve.



Shadow LP has put in a huge effort and should be applauded for it.
My guess is that he is heavily exposed to property and is surviving on hope.
As this bear market rally continues, Shadow’s case will strengthen and Steve’s case will get harder and harder to make. This is because mood is flipping back to positive. The media and the people will gain more and more strength and confidence from the share markets’ rise. After the bear market rally ends, the next bout of panic and risk aversion will change the demand dynamic for housing in OZ for a generation. Cycles can easily be misdiagnosed because the period being assessed is too brief.
Much of the demand and trend support that Shadow relies on comes from the last 30 years. Very dangerous considering that the period being measured has been boom boom boom!
Demand for housing trumps supply every time. There have been many times in history when the demand for housing has crashed. WW2, GD, 1890s, etc. To draw a conclusion from only 30 years is very flawed.
Finally, the price of housing is totally dependent on Willingness and ability. As unemployment and fear rises, both willingness to buy and ability to pay the prices being asked will crash.
Good luck wrestling a train LP. shadow.
I agree BTB,
I think we have to take into consideration the time it took to get HERE and the reluctance for all financial controllers(banks) to devalue assets.
This will graduate over time (say 2-15 years) for Steve’s 20-40% price devaluation to be fully effective but in my opinion it will happen.
Mathematics are credit and debit and the debIt side of the equation cannot be supported by income and production, the previous credit that was extended suddenly isn’t there anymore you get a liquidation of assets. or bankruptcy, which amounts to the same. Time and patience is the key.
Hi BTB
Shadow-LP has put in some good work and looks very convincing. However AMP’s Shane Oliver has done a better job. Oliver’s report is getting a little bit old now as it was done in November last year but the historical research is still accurate. Our strongest point supporting falling houses prices is rising unemployment. Shadow-LP appears to address this in “False claim 9″. However, if you look at Shane Oliver’s report and the associated chart on page 2, you will see that house prices DO FALL with rising unemployment especially for the period he highlighted. The flaw with Shadow-LP’s house prices is that he has probably used nominal house prices whereas Shane Oliver uses “real” house prices, which showed a 20% decline in the early 1990′s!!!
House prices and debt Australia – Shane Oliver
Well I saw with my own eyes a nominal 20% in Melbourne 88 to 92.
Not sure if someone else has already spotted the following article which was published in The Independent in the UK last week:
‘American Excess: a Wall Street trader tells all’.
Please do read the article which gives a clear account of many of the issues discussed here, as they take place in real life. You can find it here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/american-excess–a-wall-street-trader-tells-all-1674614.html
Sometimes the spam filter sees a set of URLs in a row from an approved poster, and interprets them as a possible spam attack.
If you want to send a set of URLs, try interspersing them with text as well. This will probably stop the spam filter triggering.
thanks steve,
i was wondering what was going on,
for one moment there i thought i’d been blacklisted.
will keep your suggestions in mind when making posts
Morning All,
“Victorian house prices suffer biggest drop in 40 years……And, in a worrying trend the rate of falls has increased”.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25415325-661,00.html
Seems like the edge of the abyss has been reached south of the border.
joshua, roylefamily, Bullturnedbear, jim and others,
I’m totally unimpressed with Shadow-LP or Shane Oliver’s forecasts, not because one or the other may not turned out to be “right”. It is because their methodology is nonsense: a “narrative fallacy”. They narrated what has happened to housing citing positives and negatives. Then without any systematic way of weighing the positives against the negatives to get an overall impact, they give speculative forecasts on the change in house prices. Quite worthless.
It is no use pretending forecasting is easy or even possible. An example is Economic Cycle Research Institute (ECRI) which is dedicated to predicting cycle turning points, with far more resources, thoroughness and comprehensiveness than our own soothsayers can muster:
http://www.businesscycle.com/
Just in the last day or two, Banerji (ECRI) is “pointing to a business cycle recovery this year, probably by the end of the summer” in the US:
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10495033/1/banerji-the-end-of-the-recession.html
But before one gets excited (one way or another) about to this forecast, one should at least look at his recent forecasting record. In November 2007, due to a 3.9% annual growth in GDP, Banerji said the ECRI indicators were “certainly pointing to slower growth ahead, but not a recession.” in the US:
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10388417/1/goldilocks-has-just-left-town.html
Oops. The recession in US started immediately after the ECRI forecast that there will be no recession. According to NBER the arbiter of business cycle dating, the US recession began in December 2007:
http://www.nber.org/cycles/dec2008.html
So much for business cycle experts on forecasting the business cycle, even with all their sophisticated models and indicators. There has to be a revolution in economics.
The popular press economic comentators are purely speculating about next years house price and this speculation is more worthless than a guess at the casino if the next roll is red or black.
The maths based on the actual data from history… 150 years
Melbourne house prices increased roughly 1000 times (from $416 to $416,000) = 4.7% p.a.
Wages increased 333 times = 3.9% p.a.
The house price/income ratio has tripled from 2 to 6 = 0.7% p.a.
The volatility of annual price changes has been several multiples of the long term average annual price change, which is why it’s a speculative casino guess what the price will be in one or two years.
Richard Feynman had a good saying… Firstly don’t fool yourself because you’re the best person at doing that.
I live in Sydney in the Suburb that tops NSW for First Home Buyers availing of the FHB to buy a house. The average price for an existing single story home is around 440K and 2 story 550K. The new homes are around 480K for single and 580K for 2 bedroom.
When the grants were introduced the very same week I went with my family to check out new homes and every builder was narrating the same story. The market is pretty flat and the ball is in your court, we are willing to negotiate for 20K with differed settlement.
Within a few weeks/months the FHB momentum caught on and land prices increased by 20K and so did houses. It makes no sense to buy a new built house because they are very dingy/cramped. You get more value if you buy land and build or buy and existing home.
I think the economy is not yet in a tail spin and the prices would have fallen by at least 10% if the grant was not introduced.
It is very difficult to get a neutral assessment of house prices or the housing bubble with media, government, real estate agents, builders, RBA, banks, fund managers and even your own friends(invested in properties and are negatively geared) because of vested interested. They have everything to loose if house prices actually fall. So the herd will swamp and dismiss any article that suggest there is a housing bubble in Australia and it will pop.
I cannot believe it but almost 6 in 10 people I know have investment properties and around 3 of these 6 have more than 3. I liked Peter Schiff latest podcast on 22-April where he talks about a bubble. How do you know there is a bubble? Well, he gave a simple explanation with investment properties and gold. He said if everyone around you was talking about their wise investment and gold then you would question if there is bubble? His explanation is too simplistic unlike Steve’s work that actually shows us why.
One thing that confuses me is Keen says the best case scenario is a recession more severe then the 1990s recession and lasting longer. I don’t see house prices falling to the extreme of 40% if this was to play out. This could still happen if unemployment would remain in the double digits for a prologued period after the recession ended. But then again why would you call and end to the recession?
If a depression would eventuate the 40% fall would be possible. However, I really do not think people can wait for a decade or 15 years to buy unless there is a change in the way we think meaning it is better to rent vs buy and this becomes a norm and is supported by low rents.
I agree BTB with your statement about the mood. This bear market rally is causing the herd and even supporters of keen to see Steve’s call of a 40% slump in 10 to 15 years or for that matter a depression very unlikely.
If it already fell by 10% and was heading for 20% by the end of this or next year I would believe it but the government intervention with the grants and mortgage relief has really distorted things so a 20% fall would be a really great achievement.
By the way it is nice to hear Peter Schiffs talk on the banks reporting a profit. It is the same as keens response to me.
I was thinking about the following question. How can we have “green shoots” and how can that idea become mainstream (so fast) when there is so much loss and financial destruction? I have a possible answer using a common metaphor.
The half glass full/empty.
As the share market was making a low on March 9 (of course no one knew it was making a new low at the time) sentiment and negativity was peaking to the downside. The MSM, governments, economists and people generally were quite pessimistic at the time and the headlines were much more dire than they are now.
Fast forward 4 weeks and the markets had made the biggest 1 month gain in 70 years. After that, we began to hear about green shoots. (not just from the lying government officials). We began hearing how the rate of decline was slowing. We also heard how the US banks may need a little more capital, but none will fail. I have even heard that the UK has seen the worst of its property declines, yet corporate and personal bankruptcies are skyrocketing.
The numbers had not changed at all. All that had changed was people’s perceptions of reality or the data. People’s views had changed from being half glass empty to half glass full. Despite the change, the glass still only had half as much liquid (or is that liquidity) as it did when it was full.
Look out when pessimism returns next time. As risk aversion and negativity stair steps lower. It gets worse and worse each time.
Governments are slowing down their release of “new ideas and policies”, made on the run to fix the acute problems (A good thing). The thinking is that the market is self correcting. The problem is though, when the panic and pessimism returns. The governments are shocked, not prepared. That causes them to make even more hysterical and bigger policy decisions on the run. Who can guess what the consequences of the next event of worldwide mass panic will be?
Hi Joshua,
Is it too late for your sister? Has she bought yet?
I sent an email 6 or 8 months ago to 3 family friends thinking about buying.
It sort of summed up the global situation and made some conclusions that helped them decide to defer their decision to buy. They decided to a take a wait and see approach. I guess I could dig it out and post it to this site. I will only do it if she hasn’t signed yet. Let me know.
Hi BTB,
I gave up trying to convince her surprisingly but she has kept it on hold for the moment. She might act depending on what the government announces this month. So any information that would give insight would be very appreciated. Thanks!
Hi BTB and others,
The MSM of late seems less strident to me in repudiating the drop in house prices now underway. Comments I see on TV and printed media are now resorting to emphasising annual price gains when commenting on local house price declines- a sign of desperate spin. The hackneyed phrase “housing shortage” seems to be getting less airplay as well.
Unemployment is starting to bite and buyers are drying up as unease and caution override the urge to accumulate. This is normal for this part of the cycle. The banks are confirming this with their interest rate policies, witholding rate cut pass through as defaults and bad debt provisions mount.
An aquainatnce of mine has just sold a property in inner west Sydney for $570k after listing 9 mths ago for $650k, which was thought to be a good price to offload at, at the time.It is the 2nd time the property has gone into the 5 day cool off, so fingers are crossed. There were many dozens of views, this was the 2nd serious offer. If this fails the asking drops $25k. You all can do the math.
As Kevin says, it’s all about jobs. But the sceptic I am tells me it’s so much more than “jobs”. It’s about the Banks. If jobs go really south and mortgage defaults get out of hand then property prices are headed the way of the UK and US.The Aussie Banks will be toast. And so then is Australia’s economy and for a long time.I see all major Govt policy directed towards propping up property values;
- Ruddbank
- Bank Gtee’s.
- Cash Handouts
- Stimulous/deficit spending
- Changes to young unemployment benefits and recording.
- Mortgage releif assistance
All are designed to impact consumer confidence(jobs), directly push back on mortgage defaults or protect banks. Rudd knows the Banks are a serious risk with their exposure to massive offshore funding and debt obligations.
If the Aussie banks do come under pressure from unemployment creating defaults etc. Will the government guarantee on depostits be enough to cover peoples savings, or is there something else we should be doing? I’m just not sure how deep the rabbit hole gets.
- Ernie.
Hi Globalinsight,
That’s a good story re Phillip Meyer and his struggle with his employment on Wall Street. His perserverence in writing a best selling novel after 3 attempts may well prove to be a blessing for him. American Rust is written in similar style and character portrail as Steinbeck especially Grapes of Wrath. I am enjoying the read.
To the group.
For many years 20-25yrs I have been consulting with small business retail, mainly within one particular category. I deal with (mostly in troubled times such as now) banks and insolvency companies. This timeit has been different in that the financial institutions have been reluctant to foreclose allowing many small businesses to “go to the wall” on their own accord. This is most probably because the collatoral is negative ion equity as is the business and the bank has the mortgage anyway. The cause and delay are a bit mixed up but fair to sya that the banks have over lent and our now facing up to the task of recovery.
It would seem that the Banks and the Govt have been concentrated in their efforts to focus on the big picture borrowers (what I call the top of the financial pyramid)and their collaterised debt obligations CDO’s so that they can adjust to the “roll” over of funds needed from overseas in the near future. These companies would especially be REITs and LPT’s where the property valuation and therefore loan to value ratio, exposure would be international as well as local. The banks have told REIT’s and LPT’s to go to their shareholders for investemnt money for “we want ours back” What is that saying? is it that property prices are going to rise in the near future? I don’t think so.
It is now time for the “base” of the pyramid to come under scrutiny and as Mike Smith (ANZ) stated last week as did the NAB that the small business sector and the debt defualts in this sector is alarming (however they believe managable of course)
My experience is that it is a cliff hanger with more hanging on by their finger nails than one can possibly concede. Ofcourse once these businesses “go” their homes, jobs, families will all be affected. This is the real crisis of what this recession/depression is really about it’s about what I believe Steve is saying and theat is our INDIVIDUAL DEBT LEVELS ARE TOO HIGH it’s reflected in the GDP that we actually have spent 60% more than we have earned for years and years and years. With unemployemnt and small business failures this will come to light a lot quicker than the Babcock and Brown’s or ALLCO or ABC Learning etc We have always had this type of clean out in any recession but grass root worker and small business defaulting is really depression stuff.
I agree with Steve housing and all collatorised propery, investment will fall in price 20 -30 -40 percent for those that have to sell maybe more, just look at the share market if one has to sell.
A lot will depend on how many “hit the wall” at the same time as to how much the prices will fall for once the scary bits hit the man in the street undercomsumption will be paramount.
Steve, on a day to day basis it is hard when we hear read all the spin to stick to the truth I admire that your conviction is also learned and makes sense to laymam like me. It is comforting to read and sometimes hear what you say for it gives me reassurance that I am not a one off dissenchanted negative guy just someone that sees that the excesses of the past have come to roost no matter and no matter how it is ‘hidden” will come to light.
I thought it interesting and a little disingenuous on ABC’s “Insight” this morning that the regularly refered to ‘friend’ of this site, Rory Robertson of Macquarie Bank was quoted as saying( on radio) in relation to economic forecasts or “anything that matters” that “there were were only two types of economists, those that didn’t know, and those that didn’t know that they know” (what was going on).
Maybe if he had acted on the ‘forecasts’ that Steve had put down for for all to see ( even from high up in the macquarie towers) in chapter and verse since late 2006, then he might have been able to save his boss and colleagues from ‘having’ to take pay cuts of up to 99%.
He must be absolutely spitting chips about how correct you have been Steve.
Fortunately he has the time and one would hope the intelligence (unlike Kevin, Wayne and his crew) to ‘pickup’ on the one person that has
‘got it right’ in such a declared way, and thereby make better decisions on which he and his poor mates might ‘make a buck’.
Look..u may have seen this – but on a more serious note check out some of Obama’s more secret moves….
watch the whole thing – 2 mins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzyT9-9lUyE
Hi All,
Just for the record APM released their quarterly house price report (Mar-09) on Friday. National house prices have fallen by 3.7% in the last 12 months from their peak in the March quarter last year (Mar-08).
http://www.homepriceguide.com.au/media_release/APM_HousePriceSeries_MarchQ09.pdf
Thanks Jim.
It seems that property prices falling cannot be masked any longer, even with jigged numbers. Now, the spin is that the prices seem “remarkably resilient” and expectations are they will flat or only slightly lower from now. A good time to buy? Hardly.
The facade is crumbling a brick at a time.
A good example of spin in action. BHP releases an EIS (environmental impact study) on Roxby Downs.
The Headline;
“BHP’s Olympic Dam mine to kickstart recovery”
….. buried in the article;
“Mr Rann adopted a more conciliatory note yesterday, welcoming the EIS.
“We will work with BHP Billiton to maximise the number of jobs here … the point is it hasnot yet been approved,” Mr Rann said.”
I know for a fact that BHP has cancelled it’s order for the fleet of off highway dump trucks they had on order for this project.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25416641-5006787,00.html
It’s all bulls**t. BHP had this done and ready on the shelf. They have already let go and re-allocated the staff that were preparing for this project.
globalinsights,
I read the article when it first appeared on the Independent’s website a while ago. If you look you will find similar accounts by the Wall Street types who realize the damage they are doing to society.
Thanks to corporate ideology and neoclassicism, what they do everyday is rational and leads to the best possible outcome for everyone. For some, it is difficult to argue against until the realization occurs that the economic models that is used as a rationalization are actually quite nonsensical.
Does anyone else know of books (and journals) that are similar to Debunking Economics?
An article regarding barter economy:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2008/s2558853.htm
in summary, if you can’t pay in cash (because money supply is short) then offer something you do have as payment.
Sadly, government intervention makes this pretty much illegal in most “modern” economies, but the principle is well demonstrated by even a single example. If people can create their own money-equivalent then recession is impossible.
Ahhh, yes now I can agree with you entirely. The professional management class staged a quiet coup by separating shareholders from management decisions (even very basic decisions like executive remuneration). In the 19th century it would have been unthinkable.
However, government contributed to this coup by creating an expectation that shareholders should somehow be isolated from risk and responsibility and by reassuring people that regulation was solving problems. The only thing that solves the problem is for shareholders to get burnt a few times and wake up from their slumber. Creating an illusion of safety in investment is nothing short of a confidence trick.
Why do we put the future of our country into the hands of conmen? Because it is convenient for the centralised power structure to manipulate the viewpoints of their constituents (and they have found ways to be very adept at this). The only answer is to throttle back the power of centralised government, and teach people to think for themselves again.
Well, everyone seems to think that the current problems were brought on my excess debt and it seems obvious to me that the free-market is working its guts out to purge itself of unwanted debt. Government response is to create more debt to fill up the hole and make the market work twice as hard to purge that debt.
Think of it like a man who has eaten bad food and is now curled up heaving out vomit. He will be sick for a while, but when it is clear he will be OK again. Along comes Mr Government Bailout and tries to spoon the vomit back into his mouth. Git it in ya!