In May 1973, dissatisfaction over the teaching of economics at the University of Sydney went from a festering sore amongst the staff only to an outright revolt by a minority of the staff, and a majority of the students. In 1975, a new Department of Political Economy had its first intake into Economics I(P). Thirty four years later, it is still going. Professor Frank Stilwell, who has lived this dispute since 1970, is launching Political Economy Now!, a history of the dispute, next Tuesday at Sydney University’s Fisher Library (May 5th, 5.30pm, Level 5).
A major impetus here, as I note in Debunking Economics, was a lecture by the then newly appointed Dr Frank Stilwell which explained a concept known as the “theory of the second best“. Developed in the 1950s by Canadian economist Richard Lipsey and Australian-American economist Kelvin Lancaster, this theory argued that a single movement closer to what economic theory described as a better world could in fact reduce welfare rather than increasing it (Lipsey, R. G. and K. Lancaster (1956). “The General Theory of Second Best.” The Review of Economic Studies 24(1): 11-32).
Frank’s explanation of the theory involved a labour market in which a monopoly supplier of labour (a trade union) was negotiating with a concentrated buyer of labour (a major firm or perhaps an oligopolistic cartel). Unqualified neoclassical economics argued that the trade union would reduce welfare by forcing employers to pay a wage that exceeded the (marginal) productivity of the workers. Welfare would therefore be increased if the union was abolished–and this argument is the major reason that neoclassical economists are so generally anti-union.
But Frank pointed out that the same model that argued that trade unions alone would set wages “too high”–compared to the neoclassical measure of social welfare–led to the conclusion that a monopoly buyer (or “monopsony”) of labour facing disorganised workers would result in wages that were “too low” compared to that same measure. On the other hand, with both unions and monopsony buyers of labour present, the wage would end up somewhere between these two extremes.
So abolishing the union–or drastically weakening its capacity to bargain while doing nothing to reduce the power of the buyers of labour–would actually reduce welfare. The standard anti-union line that many neoclassical economists (and conservative politicians influenced by them) trot out is therefore not supported by a more general neoclassical perspective.
This caveat to the standard “Economics 101″ anti-union position is not something that students normally encounter until well into their Honours or even PhD education. By then, most students who have delved that deeply into the neoclassical mindset can’t see any other way to think about the economy. They either ignore “curlies” like this one (and many, many others), or they take the zealot’s approach (“we should abolish monopolies as well–hey, let’s form a Consumer and Competition Commission to campaign for just that”), or they accept patently absurd assumptions to sidestep obvious problems in applying neoclassical economic theory to the real world.
Having learnt this particular curly “out of sequence”, I was instead struck with how fragile the theory was: admit one aspect of reality–that there are both unions and concentrated buyers of labour–and a straightforward proposition from the theory is turned on its head. That didn’t strike me as a particularly robust theory: a robust one would instead need just some attenuation of its conclusions as more realism was introduced, not a wholesale “Do the opposite of the advice given in the simplest case if its conditions don’t apply precisely in the real world”.
My disenchantment with economic theory grew as I learnt more, so that I dropped out of the Honours stream in second year, and ultimately played a leading role in the dispute that erupted in 1973. At the year’s end, I was one of two students who were invited to address the Faculty of Economics when it met to consider whether there should be an Inquiry into the Department of Economics (the other was Richard Osborne).
Despite our victory at Sydney University, neoclassical economics grew even more dominant as the years wore on, something that both perplexed and worried me (and many others who developed a career in academic economics while refusing to worship at the neoclassical altar). How could something so wrong be so successful? We knew that the grounds on which its many interventions in public policy–from competition policy to industrial relations to macroeconomic management and monetary policy–were shonky. How come the economy nonetheless seemed to be booming?
The answer, as is now becoming obvious to everyone except diehard neoclassical economists, was that underlying this apparent economic prosperity was a growing pile of debt. Economic prosperity now was being borrowed from the future, as a mountain of debt was accumulated, and the money generated by it spent on an orgy of speculation on share and property markets.
Fortunately, as well as rejecting neoclassical economics, I had also become a fan of Hyman Minsky’s “financial instability hypothesis”. In my PhD I constructed biology and engineering-inspired mathematical models of Minsky’s hypothesis that, unfortunately, proved to be very accurate predictors of what the ultimate outcome of this speculative bubble would be.
In doing this work, I have moved light years away from neoclassical economics, but also some distance from what Political Economy has become. The faux-mathematics practiced by neoclassical economics persuaded a lot of critics that mathematics was part of the problem, but I was always of the mind that neoclassical economics either used the wrong mathematics–algebra and comparative statics versus differential equations and dynamic analysis–or made mathematical errors, or both. Since Political Economy has shied away from mathematics, I therefore stand somewhat outside my old stamping ground these days.
But I wouldn’t be who I am, nor could I have made the contributions that I have to economics, without those beginnings in the stirring days of the early 1970s. So I owe a great debt to Political Economy at Sydney University, one I am happy to acknowledge.
Unfortunately, I won’t be able to attend the book launch next week–I am already committed to attending a workshop with the CSIRO on melding dynamic models of the ecology with the same from economics. But I’ll be there in spirit as Frank Stilwell, Evan Jones, Gavan Butler and many “once-were-activists” ex-students commemorate a proud entry in the larrikin history of Australian economics. If you’re interested in the story, and especially if you were part of it, see if you can make it along to the launch:
- Location: Syney University Fisher Library, Level 5
- Date: Tuesday May 5th
- RSVP: by Friday 1 May 2009 to events@sup.usyd.edu.au or 02 9036 9958
- Start Time: 17:30
Frank invited myself and several other leading activists from that time to write some reflections on Political Economy for the book. My entry is reproduced below.
From Activist to Associate Professor…
Like many of those who got involved in the Political Economy struggle at Sydney University, I began as a believer in what I simply thought was economics. There is a first year tutorial paper, hopefully long lost, in which I bemoan the existence of both monopolies and trade unions.
Such naivety did not last. In late 1971, one Frank Stilwell drove an intellectual bulldozer through it with an untimely illustration during a First Year of the “theory of the second best” (in a “proper” economics education, such things are really best left to graduate school when the few survivors are fully committed to neoclassisicm). Learning about this wrinkle on the seemingly flawless neoclassical skin shook my world view substantially (with a little bit of help from the Vietnam Moratorium), and the second thing I did after signing on for a vacation job was to join the union.
The following year, along with a newfound radical friend Richard Fields, I organised (if that is the right word!) a “Radical Economics” conference. It was attended by a handful, with the Henry George League making up a sizeable fraction of the audience and only Bruce McFarlane providing any real intellectual spark.
As my “gut-feeling” disgust for economics grew, I became progressively more disillusioned both with economics and with the bulk of my fellow students, who seemed to tolerate this bunk (though they, like me, chatted away all through Professor Simkin’s incredibly boring 2nd Year Macroeconomics lectures). Attempts to challenge the staff on the “hidden assumptions” of economics met with friendship from a minority who would, some time later, form the nucleus of the Political Economy Department, but outright hostility from the majority (notably the main 1st Year Microeconomics lecturer, whom we had long ago nicknamed Mean Mr Mustard Man after his peculiar taste in clothing). It seemed that this mediocre hegemony — that I now knew to call “neoclassical” — would forever dominate economics forever.
All that changed in 1973, when the Philosophy Department at Sydney University initiated a strike over the University’s refusal to endorse a new subject on “Philosophical Aspects of Feminist Thought”. As then President of the Arts Society (my degree was Arts/Law, not Economics) and therefore an ex-officio member of the Faculty of Arts, I took an active role in this at both official and street protest level, and found the vigour of the Philosophy students a welcome contrast to the passivity I thought characterised their Economic colleagues.
All this changed when Gavan Butler informed me that students in Frank’s 1st Year lecture had voted to strike in sympathy with Philosophy. The aura of passivity had only been one of resignation: like me, many were fed up with the pseudo-numerate nonsense that permeated our subjects, and leapt at the chance to do something to change it.
A lunchtime meeting about “The Problem in Economics” drew over 450 students. While we ranted, little direction existed until an until-then unknown Government student, Richard Osborne, sprang to his feet to suggest that we should organise a “Day of Protest”. Over ten per cent of the audience volunteered to help, and though we didn’t quite realise it then, the Political Economy Movement was born.
The Day of Protest was a huge success from the moment that Bill Nichol’s 25 metre banner was strung out across the Merewether Building. The adrenalin rush of the event gave our protest a momentum that pushed through a Faculty vote to investigate the affairs of the Department of Economics. We also developed an alternative economics curriculum that became Political Economy I (in response to a challenge from Professor Hogan to “do better” if we didn’t like the current syllabus). And, though we didn’t appreciate it at the time, we gave birth to a tradition of student activism that, while it has waxed and waned at times, has lived on for fully thirty years. That is a remarkable achievement.
Looking back on those days from my position as an Associate Professor of Economics & Finance, I think we did only one thing wrong. Because so much of the nonsense of neoclassical economics is dressed up in apparently sophisticated mathematical dress, we identified mathematics and rigorous analysis as at least part of “the enemy”.
Knowing what I know today, I realise that it was not real mathematics but appallingly bad mathematics that clothed this naked emperor of the social sciences. It of course remains true that much of economics cannot be put into mathematical form, as Hugh Stretton’s Economics makes clear with its plea for “barefoot economists”. But truly rigorous mathematics demolishes neoclassical economics, while modern mathematics and computing offer the possibility of a truly dynamic economics that can at least partially explain the behaviour of the unstable economic system in which we live.
Thirty years on, the battle to develop that real economics is still an uphill one. The majority of economists still fall prey to the seductive ideology of neoclassicism, while only a handful of the perhaps 20 per cent of academic economists who are non-neoclassical have the intellectual armory needed to develop an alternative. They struggle on with limited funding while comparative abundance is wasted on those who continue to push the prevailing paradigm forward.
So is the PE struggle ultimately futile? No: we know so much more now about the deficiencies of neoclassical economics than we knew thirty years ago, and perhaps economic circumstances will one day give us the opportunity to shake the hegemony as Keynes tried to do seventy years ago. Until that day, we can at least revel in poking fun at the naked emperor.
A footnote: How true that last paragraph turned out to be
Upon re-reading that last paragraph–”perhaps economic circumstances will one day give us the opportunity to shake the hegemony as Keynes tried to do seventy years ago”–I was curious about when I could have written it.
Some books take a long time to go from idea to hard copy: I penned those lines on January 1st 2003.
The statement itself underscores why this struggle was and is important, and why also it had no chance of success until the economy itself was in crisis. Though there were plenty of anti-capitalist radical amongst those who campained for Political Economy, the unifying theme of the movement was that neoclassical economics was bad theory. Just as following a bad theory of navigation–such as Ptolemy’s earth-centric view of the universe–can lead a ship into disaster, following bad economic theory ultimately had to lead to an economic calamity.
But just as it’s hard to convince a believer that the earth-centric model of the universe is false until his ship is wrecked on a reef that his model says wasn’t there, we couldn’t convince the wider world of the errors in neoclassical thought until the economy itself was in crisis. We have now hit that economic reef, and therefore the opportunity to reform economics is finally with us.
It is an opportunity that I have no intention of wasting–hence the formation of this blog, and the public information and policy campaign I have waged over debt. But it’s one that could pass us by too, as it did in the 1930s, when Keynes’s attempt to reformulate economics without Say’s Law was undermined by Hicks’s reinterpretation of Keynes as a neoclassical “marginalist”. Academic economics is incredibly resistant to reform, and left to their own devices, economics departments will go on teaching neoclassical economics and attempt to develop “a neoclassical Minsky” as they once concocted “a neoclassical Keynes”.
There can be no such creature. Essential aspects of Minsky’s theory–especially his direct incorporation of uncertainty, and his vision of destabilising forces so that no equilibrium will ever persist–are utterly antithetical to the neoclassical way of thinking. But I have no doubt that there will be attempts to reformulate his ideas in a neoclassical guise.
For that reason, my main argument for the reform of academic economists is to remove the monopoly that economics departments currently have over the word “economics”. Let Engineering and Physics and Biology and Sociology and Psychology departments teach Economics as well–and label it as such. With their very different foundations, there is a prospect that in those courses a new, realistic, dynamic approach to economics will finally evolve.






April 27th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Kicking some ass! Will you be coming to Melbourne any time soon?
April 27th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
I’m actually there for the next two days, but returning to Sydney each evening and in meetings while down there. No other trips to Melbourne are in the offing for a while; the earliest that I could make a trip down, if there were people able to sponsor the costs, would be in the first two weeks of June.
April 27th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
I like the idea of other disciplines teaching economics. I think we need a survey of resources and current technologies and what is sustainable production in the current context which will change as technology and populations change. If this is done I think you’ll have something wholly different to capitalism. Capitalism will become a dinosaur, it can’t see past its nose.
April 27th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
currently there’s not enough reason for a minority to see no problem to exploit as long as it’s benefiting them. If sustainable production is understood by most there will be democratic forces to stop the outrageous accumation of wealth and abuse of power, because it will be understood that its not justified and there will be evidence to back it up. I think this is how the mass psychology will work in this sustainability dominated culture, and the justification for capitailsm will erode with its development. I don’t buy into this stuff that great investions are the result of the profit motive, there’s too many example to name where great inventors primarly goal has not been their personal wealth but the contibution to the common heritage of all people. Things are becomming so mechanised now that hardly any labour will be needed for production in the future and this will erode purchasing power and the mechanics of the monetary system anyway. May as well be open to weening ourselves off it now I reckon.
April 27th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Hi,
This maybe off topic but is there a forum where steves ideas can be talked about, along with the current state of the economy.
I have read steves postings for a while now, and in general i agree with the stuff posted. But i am confused as to why are economic conditions in australia not worse than they are now. Where i am in Perth, WA people still seem to have plenty of money to throw around, house prices are still over the roof, at my firm we have had numerous people leave for better paying jobs becasue management eneacted a wages freeze. A wages freeze i might add that all the staff regard as a self serving opportunisitc decision, put in place becasue of media headlines of the GFC, and not becasue the company isnt making great profits.
So i dont get it. Already news coming out of europe and USA is of the recession having bottomed out, and a recovery taking place. How is this possible ?
How is it the Stock market is still having rallies, and how is it that it is still valued so high. It all seems illogical given what i expected to have happened by now
I dont get why are things not worse now in australia if a recovery has started overseas already. Why is the stock market still overvalued, why are houses still overvalued, why has the economy not tanked and in the toilet ?
April 27th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
its amazing how long the debt wagon can keep on rolling is the answer I think. The polically easier answer at the moment is to keep mortgaging more of the future to keep it going. I think the current rallies are just market psychology the stimulus will work, as employment continues to fall these hopes will fade resulting in new lows. The only anser to stop deflation is debt repudiation or zimbabwe style printing, while the upper class is in control there wont be debt repudiation or zimbo printing just more debt deflation and theft of taxpayer money. If upper class lose grip you either get highly concentrated oligarchy where zimboprinting and infaltion result but the loigarchs get hands on cash first so they’re ok. If there’s a people’s revolt as in some new political party, violence, current politicians managing to break service to wealthy then you’ll have debt repudiation. I think we’re in for more deflation for a while.
April 27th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
“Welfare would therefore be increased if the union was abolished–and this argument is the major reason that neoclassical economists are so generally anti-union.”
Is it necessarily true that “neoclassical economists” are generally anti-union, or if they are that the major objection is labour market inefficiency?
Hayek in particular stresses that unions do have a valid role to play, however a problem arises when unions are given coercive powers and unique legal priveleges which gives rise to monopoly power in the labour market.
April 27th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Gamma,
Huge multi national corporations don’t have coercive powers? The don’t employ a huge mob of lawyers to find any legal loopholes? Come on, or did Hayek just happen to overlook that. The Chicago mob were just so kind to the unions in South America.
April 27th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
spooky2009
“So i dont get it. Already news coming out of europe and USA is of the recession having bottomed out, and a recovery taking place. How is this possible ?”
Well I’m here slap in the middle of Europe and I can tell you that any such news is just propaganda in the vain hope of stimulating optimism, or some loony journalist .
Basically everything is screwed, for want of less polite language.People are losing jobs,there’s no certainty, and everything is on a retro path.
April 27th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Steve,
Got a question for you regards the inflation/deflation debate. Mish (Mike Shedlock) says deflation rules, why? If the central bank prints a trillion and buries it in the ground, it is not inflationary. If it hits the real economy and drives up demand for goods/services it is inflationary. If firms/investors lose trillions of dollars of wealth, it is deflationary. So it isn’t the printing of money per se that is inflationary, it is the net effect of money quantity on the economy that counts. If newly printed money hits the economy, viola…inflation. If current money is destroyed, viola…deflation. There also seems to be a time element here. It is past printing that leads to current inflation. Ispo facto, current losses lead to future deflation? New money is also bank credit creation as well as Fed printing. I agree your view that new credit is collapsing with further to go.
So…if the US Fed prints $2 trillion to replace financial loses of $4 trillion this would appear on net to be deflationary. Getting this macro theme correct seems essential. If the future is inflationary, then commodities would appear a good investment. If deflationary then cash or government long bonds the go.
So simplifying, the macro investing theme seems to hinge on the question of ‘is printing $2T to replace financial losses of $4T inflationary?’
PS. I read debunking economics (took me ages to secure a copy through the book shop) and I though it brilliant. Regards Austrian economics, it seems to me that your style of maths is the sort of maths Austrian’s would have if they were inclined to have it. Just a thought.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
business-cycle monitor,
There is a big difference between asset price inflation/deflation and consumer price inflation/deflation.
In general there is a reasonable correlation between the growth of currency (hard money) in circulation (adjusted for real growth) and CPI. On the other hand asset price inflation is influenced more by growth in credit (bank money) in the economy. As Steve mentioned in a previous post at some point, people do not take out loans to buy things at the corner store.
So it becomes a question of whether newly created money becomes hard currency (as much has in the case of the our government’s stimulus packages) or credit money (which is simply liquidity sitting in banks exchange settlement accounts at the RBA).
It is certainly possible, that we could end up with a situation of stable or rising consumer prices and falling asset prices (house prices, financial assets).
April 27th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Gamma,
I’m not sure the difference between asset and consumer price inflation/deflation is that rigid. Rising global CPI over 2003-2007 was fueled by expanding consumer credit, itself fueled by equity withdrawals against rising assets (homes and equity portfolios). I can make an argument for both rising or both falling, but it would seem difficult to explain expanding consumer credit when consumer assets are deflating. Ditto contracting consumer credit with rising consumer assets seems possible though unlikely.
I think of it as ‘working money’. Working money is money ‘in the economy’ which can be either bank credit (from Fed printing presses or bank-generated), consumer/firm savings/assets, and consumer income. Right now it would seem that working money is contracting as savings/assets, incomes, and bank credit is contracting despite Fed money printing.
Is inflation…’always and everywhere a working money phenomenon?’
April 27th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
BCM
don’t forget the 500T in derivatives. Goldman Sachs is alredy getting theirs through AIG conduit. Seems like these derivatives became the economy and now its all over red rover. More reasons to be scared of impressive maths Steve, ie the black scholes option pricing formula. The more complicated something is the more liable to abuse, the overall descriptive objective of the model has to be simple and clearly understood by most, but this isn’t usualy how you get a noble prize or to control lots of money. OF course some argue the animal spirits generated by the bogus maths is agood thing which I totally disagree with as in this case the animal spirits have mostly gone into nonproductive asset values.
April 27th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Clive,
Well said. The hypocrisy of “free market” economists such as Hayek and Friedman is almost overbearing.
It reminds me of the time when Friedman traveled to Chile to destory its economy through his monetarist/neoclassical reforms. The neo-nazi dictator Augusto Pinochet closed down all economic departments in the country apart from the one at a Catholic university which staunchly advocated monetarism. To my knowledge, Friedman, an apparent supporter of limited government and civil liberties, did not speak up about this – or somehow “forgot” to do so.
It also reminds me of LTCM, where Friedman was an adviser. Letting the state bail mega financial institutions out of their own stupidity doesn’t rate a mention.
Neither does state intervention in the form of IPR on their economic textbooks or journals. Or the rigid labor markets that keep their wages (especially in the US) high.
When was the last time you heard such an economist denounce the tax and spend policies of a state that helps to subsidize uni students to get an education, which keeps academic economists in a job? (Thanks to Paul Ormerod for this one).
April 27th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Gamma,
Mish has just posted a timely follow up at:
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/04/money-multipliers-velocity-and-excess.html
I see this as a long term investment thesis straddling the business cycle. I think the business cycle will continue to play out whilst ever credit at 90% LVR is available:
http://www.business-cycle-monitor.com/business-cycle-theory-slideshows
April 27th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
I think as long as working money is not increasing and its not because banks aren’t lending and velocity is decreasing which it is because banks aren’t lending and financing consumption indirectly through asset owners receiving cash and the flow on effect into economy, you’re going to have both cpi and asset price deflation. To get CPI inflation in this circumstance you need to have a political decision to pu purchasing power in the hands of the general public and the general public doesn’t have the political clout to do that at this stage.
April 27th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
BCM,
Thanks for that post, it’s an interesting analysis.
In response to your points, here in Australia, from 2003 to 2007 CPI averaged 2.70%, while currency, M1 and M3 grew by 5.7%, 8.2% and 11.7% respectively. Real growth was 3.3%. This increase in the money multipliers showed up in asset price inflation (house prices increased 7.6% and the ASX200 more), not consumer price inflation.
To bring this point back to past discussions on housing prices, the ratio between house prices and income has increased significantly over the last 15 years, driven primarily by speculation made possible by an expansion of credit. For this ratio to return to historical levels, we need to see wages and consumer prices rise less than asset prices.
Whether this happens with everything falling or everything rising or somewhere in between, I think will be determined by the amount of currency the government releases into the economy.
April 27th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
CPI seems to be highly dependent on volatile oil prices. It is also highly dependent on volatile exchange rates. For example at the end of last year the sharp drop in oil price reduced CPI index over 3 or 4 months in many places, but now CPI is rising in some countries.
In the UK for example they are currently experiencing RPI deflation with CPI inflation, a bit of a painful cocktail.
April 27th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
gamma
it was chinese slave labour that allowed cpi to be tame while a credit binge financed by productive yet miserly east asian economies pushed up asset prices creating the illusion of wealth. I think you’re partially right about it being about how much currency the gov releases, its also about how they do it, what segments of society it is targeted at, also at the end of the day its really about what happens with US and China that really counts.
April 28th, 2009 at 5:03 am
‘Whether this happens with everything falling or everything rising or somewhere in between, I think will be determined by the amount of currency the government releases into the economy.’
I think you’re wrong on this point gamma,the simple reality is that for you to be right,the govt would have to correctly predict the movements in the following
1 asset prices
2 velocity of money down the line
3 levels of fractional reserve lending ie the extent of deleveraging in the banking sector
4 demand for credit from Joe Public ie you can create all the credit money you like but if noone wants to borrow it,then it’ll be buried in the sand.
my experience trading,tells me that if some pretty clued up people struggle to accurately predict anyone of these,then govts will be way behind the curve.
April 28th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Let me rephrase the same question to Steve about his Minsky’s model I have already asked. So far I haven’t got a convincing response or rebuttal.
I understand that the modelled object is the national economy – either here or in the US.
So far it has been proven that the system is inherently unstable and that the deflationary crisis is inevitable if enough money (and debt) is created by banks during the bubble phase. Because it is how it works when certain parameters are within certain range…
Shouldn’t the model include interaction with the outside world like international trade and capital flow?
These parameters like for example extensive borrowing from overseas or changes in the price of oil may have very significant influence on the behaviour of the system.
These parameters can be included as external (independent) variables which are fed into the system.
I don’t think that it is possible to effectively simulate the whole global economy due to the complexity.
So far there were several discussions on this forum and there were to some extent detached. Wouldn’t it be possible to include these elements in a single numerical model?
1. The main topic is obviously debt and its deflation which itself is the root cause of the crisis.
2. Then there is international trade, the role of China and trade deficits. The fact that CPI inflation was low and the US treasury didn’t intervene early because they didn’t understand the dynamics of the system. Do they understand it now? How the international trade and the possible collapse (protectionism) influence the model?
3. Then there might be various “stimuli” which may not be big enough to force the economy to switch from the deflation to another bubble. But they may cause other side effects like prolonged budget deficits.
4. Personally I wouldn’t be surprised if US dollar is no longer an international currency in 5 years time because the sovereign creditors (including China) may not like their debt being paid back with the printing press. Wouldn’t it change the rules of the game for the US? Is it possible to simulate something like the Argentinian crisis which might have been caused by the inability to service the external debt.
5. There might be a long-term trend of rising commodity prices due to exhaustion of cheap resources including oil.
6. And many more…
Wouldn’t it be interesting to see what will happen if these external signals are fed into the model?
April 28th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Hi ak,
You said;
“I don’t think that it is possible to effectively simulate the whole global economy due to the complexity. ”
From my unqualified (in economics) view I think you are dead right. Any model that does not account for the costs/demand dynamics associated with international movement of manufacturing/labour and production cannot accurately refelect the real world of 2009.
This of course is a very big issue. It is the ability of production to re-locate to cheaper locales that has had such a huge impact on stagnant wage growth, especially OECD wage growth. The globalization revolution was all about that- to widen the profit margins on manufactured goods by lowering the production costs – accessed in cheaper countries.The demand side of that plan called for a massive ramp up in the provision of credit (in the wealthier economies) in order to fill the gap between actual stagnant wages and the desired higher purchasing power corporates needed to show “economic growth”. Banks and Govts stepped up to the plate there. Credit went wild in that environment- until now.
spooky2009,
I think the facade you outline is crumbling steadily now. That facade is presently founded on a so called “bottom” in stocks. That is not a given by any means.Just like those “green shoots”. The realities of our situation in the Access Economics report yesterday clearly forcast a much deeper and LONGER economic downturn than the spin doctors have been pronouncing. If China does not spend as forcasted, Australia drops into even deeper do-do. Ample evidence exists that house prices continue to decline- most certainly here in Queensland anyways. Buyers are drying up. Unemployment forcasts are only going up- in “unexpected” increments. The IMF forcasts cannot keep up with the downward revisions in global growth.
The Govt’s absurd spending binge is now about to be reigned in by the external realities of the GFC. It’s just too big to repulse.
April 28th, 2009 at 11:22 am
A feature of the GFC is its ability to make any economic forcasting quickly obsolete, and always in a very negative way. Clearly, the models are not designed to measure the magnitude of this kind of economic trauma. Which puts any forecast we see pretty much in the temporary catagory, like the IMF and this from Access Ecomomics;
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-business/jobless-rate-likely-to-soar-access-20090428-aks2.html
“Access expects close to one million Australians will be unemployed by late 2010, with the jobless rate forecast to hit 8.5 per cent, significantly higher than its current level of 5.7 per cent.
It is a more dire outlook than three months ago when Access forecast the unemployment rate would rise to 7.5 per by mid-2010.”
Watch for the next installment. My bet ?- double figures unemployment. We will be above 8% before Xmas 2009.
April 28th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
I was surprised to read recently that the EU recommends that it’s member countries keep their deficit down to 3% of GDP. It will be interesting to watch the federal budget next week, I am anticipating anything up to 20% of GDP deficit. If that turns out to be true then we nees some fresh economists in politics.
April 28th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
So what about these guys running a simulation of the financial markets / US dollar collapse?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21053.html
The story isn’t new but I read about it only today on a leading Polish newspaper’s website and then traced down where it originally came from.
Why won’t our mainstream media talk much about it? Is it irrelevant?
April 28th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Can someone (bullturnedbear?)anyone, put me out of my misery?(following this site I should know) the media will not mention the “depression” referring instead to “the worst financial crisis since world war 2″, this seems to be the psychology of the ‘mass media’NOW, following its insistence on referring (last year) to “the credit crunch” as its popular slogan! Is this NOW the worst financial crisis since ww2 or T.G.D.? for ‘the world’? (I note unemployment in ‘oz’ still low compared to ‘the big one’!)
April 28th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
ak,
Our mainstream media are businesses too. And you can guess who their creditors are- Banks. Banks who rely on consumer sentiment for their revenues.
Also, don’t underweight the power of access in the media. Having access to the Govt and it’s key players is a long played game between media and those in power. If you p*ss Govt off, dont expect any favours for access. So don’t expect mainstream media to shine the light on the real truth.
This is a political crisis as much as a financial crisis. And politics is all about managing sentiment.
Like Swan is now.He has no choice but to admit that his forcasts of how bad our economy is going to get were dead wrong (which of course he knew all along)- now that so much public contra data is out. But the latest spin is that there will be a quick and strong recovery, thus causing no problems for our “temporary deficit”. He knows of course the electorate will not stomach the many years of higher taxes he has already planned for taxpayers in order to pay for his Govts wasteful spending- hence the new “quick recovery” spin theme. The clown is forcasting around 4% annual growth rates to start next year. Riiiight. We await his revision to that load of bull too.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Recovery-will-be-faster-than-predicted-RHVY8?OpenDocument
April 28th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Hi ak,
My perspective on my models is that they start off as global ones–because while international trade is an important subsidiary aspect of our economy, we don’t “trade with Mars”, so any initial model starts at the global level with a single undifferentiated global economy.
Capturing international trade and financial flows between nations is therefore important, but second order to getting the overall framework right.
One important feature of this is getting causation right, and in my modelling–and the work of Minsky and the general monetary Post Keynesian perspective, to which I am a contributor–the financial causation goes from loans to deposits: loans create deposits, rather than the “deposits create loans” perspective of standard (empirically falsified) monetary analysis.
On this topic, conventional wisdom blames the high savings rate of Chinese and Japanese consumers for the American debt bubble. The Chinese & Japanese saved a lot, it had to be invested somewhere, so the Yanks borrowed it and yadda yadda.
From my perspective, the causation works the other way. Yanks took out enormous debt, and spent the debt-generated money largely on Chinese and Japanese goods, thus enabling the money to end up in Chinese and Japanese bank accounts while the USA accumulated the debt.
Now incorporating this additional feature of reality in my model would be, believe it or not, relatively straightforward. I would have two national financial systems and two national productive systems. Money/debt generated in one would then be differentially spent between the two–so that there would be net financial transfers from Yank to Chinese firms etc. Then there would be a differential rate of growth too–China would grow faster than the USA since there was a transfer of buying power from one to the other, and also a lower level of debt encumbrance.
The main curly in your questions involves invoking “non-economic” phenomena–running out of oil etc., which though clearly having an economic impact and being caused by the rate of economic growth, is nonetheless a coincidence to be occurring now rather than say in another 50 years.
Because such factors can overwhelm the internal financial dynamics, I’m inclined to omit them from the base model, but have others where the implications can be considered–and of course where there are feedbacks between the ecosystem and the economy. That’s one of the main topics on the agenda at the CSIRO seminar I’m attending next week.
April 28th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Hi Tommyt,
Is your question, why is the MSM not admitting that we are going into a depression?
Media economists and the media at large seem to play a trick on the people. They describe and report the data (historical) in a very authoritative way. This tricks the people into believing that they knew it was going to be that way all along. Also by not making too many specific predictions they can’t be wrong.
The media spent the second half of last year saying “we may just avoid a downturn”. They then spend the first 2 and a bit months of ‘09 saying “We may have a recession”. Once the December accounts came out the media started saying “It looks like we will have a recession, but it will be more mild here than elsewhere”. And so on, etc.
The media follows the herd. Therefore I predict you will not hear we are in a depression until well after it is upon us. Hope will override reality until after “the point of recognition”. After this time negativity and depression will override reality. That’s why recovery from a depression takes so long. The herd turns so negative it works against itself.
April 28th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Hi Steve,
I’ve been reading this blog since around august/September last year and find it very informative and enjoyable.
I’m a third year Engineering student that is taking 1 elective in Microeconomics. So my understanding of the Neo vs Keynes argument only really comes from this site. Generally I understand your arguments and they make sense, how ever this union idea has tripped me up.
Being half way though the course I’m only just starting to learn about imperfect markets but going from my understanding of the world I will try to explain my misunderstanding.
“a monopoly buyer (or “monopsony”) of labour facing disorganised workers would result in wages that were “too low” compared to that same measure.” i.e. One large firm in a small town will drive down wages
“the trade union would reduce welfare by forcing employers to pay a wage that exceeded the (marginal) productivity of the workers” i.e. One large union in a large town full of small firms would drive up wages.
So isn’t the simple answer to this problem that unions should only deal with monopsonies and not with small businesses? I’m sure I have probably missed the point, but the above seems pretty simple and generally shapes a persons view on IR laws depending on whether you are a factory labourer or small business owner.
April 28th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Hi Guys,
I have been saying for a while that a time will come when the politicians will believe that the “right thing to do” is stop the deficit spending/pump priming start reducing debt, reducing spending and increasing taxes. I said they will do this even as their economies are worsening and joblessness is rising.
Well the media in the UK is starting to get fired up on this issue. The time is coming where the media (the voice of the herd) will demand that the government pull their heads in and start saving.
They are not saying it like this yet, but in time it will sound just like this. “You guys (the government) need to become more responsible, careful with your money and start paying off debt. That’s what we are all doing.”
This won’t just happen in the UK. It will happen here too. If you are dependent on the government for your income. Start thinking of some secondary sources of income to help generate the necessities of life.
April 28th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
allmonkey,
so what is the marginal productivity of a bank manager what determines his salary? Are they unionised?
Maybe what you are studying is slightly incorrect?
April 28th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Hi BTB
On the question of media spin…
I have been plaguing policicians of both sides and media analysts etc with questions about the External Accountand the dangers therein for some time. (Apologies to Steve and fellow readers for boring the life out of you!) I didn’t even rate an automated reply from anyone except Alan Kohler about 18 months ago! There has been a deathly silence on the matter in the media…like the R word originally…not to be mentioned.
Suddenly, laced through various articles in the weekend media were remarks about some of the dangers we have discussed. I stress SOME – and they are the less damaging ones like we might have our credit rating downgraded. Nevertheless, as per your outline of how the media and the government are operating, it begs the question of exactly what sort of a catastrophe is coming down the line at us that they KNOW about and we are surmising. We are being prepared for something!
April 28th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
ak,
My reason for posting that was for advice more than expressing opinion.
If what I’m studying is slightly incorrect, I would like to know why. I have only invested half a semester into it so hopefully my neo classical though wont be too hard to break.
I’ve always consider a manager/owner to be different from labour (talking very simply here not a big org with middle managers) and that their productivity & salary would be directly linked to the profitability of their firm?
Middle management as with most skilled labour I would assume would be on an individual case?
That’s my understanding
April 28th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
The Outback Oracle,
I think that the silence occurs for two reasons. The first is that politicians don’t like to talk about the economy screwing up during their terms. It makes them in the public image “bad economic managers”.
The second is from economists. Given that “free market” reforms from the 1970s onwards were supposed to make our economy more efficient and thus better for everyone, I don’t think that economists like to face the fact that our economy is severely screwed in many respects, with the massive CAD as an example. This is, as Steve has pointed out, due to neoclassicism being the economic philosophy of choice behind public and private “reform” over the decades.
The corporate mass media are biased in their economic reporting. Reporting on the grave flaws of state capitalism isn’t going to do the owners and managers (read: rich people) of corporate media any favors. On the other hand, most economists are neoclassical and therefore journalists and commentators will simply seek the conventional wisdom when it comes to reporting in the mainstream media.
April 28th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Hi All,
I have been developing a thought on the Tim Geithner/Ben Bernanke strategy.
It appears and has been reported many times that Tim G believes if the banks can start lending again all will be OK. So, to get the banks lending all they need to do is remove the toxic assets and hay presto – we are in great shape. New lending equals new prosperity.
Now there are many arguments against this flawed strategy. I don’t want to get into that. I have had a different thought. A “secret thought”.
My theory goes like this. Tim Geithner knows he can’t restart lending. What he is “secretly” trying to do is prevent a banking collapse/run. This has always been his and Bernanke’s goal. They just can’t say it. To say it would be to cause it. Ben is the so called G Depression expert and he believes the banking collapse caused the GD.
Tim and Ben’s theory goes like this. To avoid a bank run, consumers need confidence. To get confidence we need to present healthy banks. How is a bank’s health measured? By its capital ratio. So we can either raise fresh capital, sell off bad loans or a combination of both. What has Tim and Ben done? Given free and unlimited capital to the banks and enacted a scheme to remove some bad assets, as well as buying as many loans through Fannie and Freddie as they can get away with. Notice how those failed institutions have ballooned their balance sheets since they were taken over.
Their whole strategy is to try and prevent a depression (based on Ben’s flawed theory). Not to stimulate a recovery, as is regularly reported. These guys are scrambling with all their might to avoid a depression and lying about that fact every day.
The sharp reversal from extreme positive social/investor mood (and the associated debt build up) to the extreme negative social mood, rising risk aversion and the resulting crash in aggregate demand (leading to massive debt deflation) is what caused the GD. The banking collapse was a symptom of that process.
So while Tim and Ben experiment with Ben’s flawed theory and focus on the banks. One part of the process that caused the GD is already over (the massive debt build up) and the second part (the deflation) is slowly building momentum on its way to ushering in the Second Great Depression. They won’t stop it, because they haven’t properly identified it yet.
April 28th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Steve
Your CSIRO work, any relation to the wonderful achievement by Geoff Davies, Economia ?
http://www.geoffdavies.com/default.html
http://www.geoffdavies.com/Praise.html
Furball
April 28th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
allmonkey,
The e-book written by prof Keen contains a very thorough analysis of the case you are writing about.
The question I asked is a serious one. Imagine you are a shareholder of Citibank. Will hiring another Vikram Pandit increase the profits of the whole bank by $40,000,000? So why has he been paid so much in 2008?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikram_Pandit
So you are saying that I have misunderstood the concept because he is not a toolie and we cannot have 1000000 unionised Vikram Pandits?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_product
Does the neo-classical theory reflect the reality or is it just a rigid ideological system full of sophismata and based on artificial assumptions reflecting production systems circa 1910?
April 28th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
tommyt,
I would like to quote philip:-
“most economists are neoclassical and therefore journalists and commentators will simply seek the conventional wisdom when it comes to reporting in the mainstream media.”
In other words, main stream media will get the information for their stories from reputable sources, such as well known economists because this makes their stories “safe” and credible, which in turn makes the publisher credible and informative. Persoanlly, I don’t believe that the main stream media are part of the big conspiracy as they are just quoting the conventional (neoclassical) economists who keep getting it wrong because they don’t include debt in their models. The main stream media well therefore not say anything about a depression until conventional economists do. Also, even if they did say something about the coming depression they would be ridiculed for panicing the public. Main stream media have a responsibility to be conservative for this reason. However, I agree that being conservative also has political benefits.
In any case, nobody can read the future with absolute certainty (not even Steve). I agree that it is very likely that we will have a depression but nobody knows this with absolute certainty. Why panic the public if you are not certain of the outcome, remembering that most (conventional) economists are still predicting a recession and not a depression!
April 28th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Jim
We don’t know the future that is sure. However what we can say is that certain activities (excessive debt) certainly result in dangers to our well being in adverse circumstances. We can guarantee that adverse circumstances will arise. It seems to me reasonable that MSM which includes people like Kohler, Pascoe, Gottliebsen,as well as the Craig james, Bill Evans lot, and of course Ken Henry et al, ought address the problems and warn of the possible dangers. The dangers were obvious! The actual outcome uncertain to some degree.
I was thinking about the ‘uncertainty’ of thinking today when a quote from years ago came to mind. It is Steins Law by Herb Stein
“If something cannot go on forever….IT WILL STOP”
April 28th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Anyway, no worries mate. She’s all in hand
“The Treasurer has revealed in a letter to his state counterparts that his recovery scenario in the budget will have the economy bouncing back to above-average growth rates, close to 4 per cent, at the end of the recession, as occurred after the 1990-92 and 1981-82 recessions.”
SMH today
This is 2009-10 he’s talking.
April 28th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
tommyt
Unemployment is not lower than that of the other countries. The figures (ABS) quotes are lower than for other countries because the ABS uses a different criterion for calculating the unemployment rate.
To be counted as unemployed in Australia you must have less than 1 hours work (paid or unpaid) per fortnight, and you must have been actively seeking work in this fortnight (not doing work experience or volontary work). Other countries have far more honest criteria and theirs should not be compared with ours.
Workers seeking work on the “Hungry Mile” in the great depression were usually able to get at least one day’s work per week. Many workers in GD1 had one, two, or three days work per week. If the current method were used to calculate unemployment in 1930 the unemployment rate may well have been assesed as less than that it is right now 2009.
The unemplyment figures are a big disgaceful, fraudelent LIE.
April 28th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Hi Furball,
Geoff will probably be there and yes we both want to introduce biological modelling approaches to economics. Geoff has also changed his analysis of debt and money after a long discussion with me on the topic; he agrees with the Roving Cavaliers analysis these days that debt can be sustained, but that in practice speculative bubbles normally cause a crisis.
April 28th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Hi allmonkey,
As one blogger has already noted, you should read the chapter on the marginal productivity theory of income distribution in Debunking Economics. The whole model of income distribution in neoclassical economics is fundamentally flawed–make sure you also read the chapter on the measurement of capital.
April 28th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Hi BTB I liked your revision of the media spin on the economy. Trying to extract correct information from them is like trying to extract teeth. I also understand that it is in there very best interests to be in the everything is sweet, all is hunk dory camp.
2 questions I have about your Bernanke theory, why will such a massive injection of money into the US economy not be inflationary? and if you had the terrible choice between a deflationary depression or an inflationary depression if you were the PM or President, what would you pick and why?
I ask this because that looks like the choice they have in the US and if I am not mistaken, Bernanke did not receive the nickname ‘helicopter’ for nothing…I am suggesting he has opted for inflationary depression to ‘help’ the debt situation.
April 28th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Hi All
This is probably off-topic, but it concerns Australia’s reliance on manufacturing and MAKING things instead of creating illusory ‘wealth’. When it looks pretty obvious that some industry is not viable any longer, instead of waiting until everything ‘falls apart’ and people lose jobs with all the associated misery etc why don’t ‘they’, (and I probably mean the government) already have another plan ready to put in place.
I might be looking at this from a South Australian view, and also a simplistic view, but for quite a few years I’ve been wondering why governments don’t have a Plan B, or even better a Plan C, a Plan D and so on, so that when what worked in the past isn’t working any longer, for example making or assembling cars in Australia Plan B etc is ready to go, and can be slotted in with the least disruption and people don’t lose their jobs and income etc.
One example is car plants. I drive past the closed Mitsubishi factory at Tonsley Park in Adelaide (it closed a couple of years ago) on my way to uni twice a week. It’s a huge site and the future of it is still in the ‘lap of the Gods’ as far as I know. Today I read that Holden in the US will stop making the Pontiac. The Holden workers at the Elizabeth plant, north of Adelaide have just started to work one week on and one week off, thus reducing their pay, but from what I read most are glad to still have a job – who knows for how long, despite the assurances that what’s happening at Head Office in the US won’t affect Australia (??).
I know nothing about making cars, but from what I’ve seen on TV it seems to involve large manufacturing machinery with skilled workers who often have worked for these companies for most of their lives. The latest Government ‘fad’ in Adelaide is to build tramlines, and new trams have to be bought from overseas plants because ‘no-one make trams in Australia’. I also read that the huge machinery used in the mines in QLD, WA and SA are also imported from overseas. Surely the machinery used to make/assemble cars can be modified to make/assemble such things as trams and heavy machinery and large trucks. If this is feasible all those people with all those skills wouldn’t subsequently lose their jobs and their skills. I’m hoping that some of you on this site may know something about building trams and heavy machinery.
Would it be too much to ask that someone really planned for the future in this country and had a few other plans up their sleeves ready to put into place when one industry falls over? Or is this too simplistic? Any thoughts anyone?
April 28th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Steve,
I read through Chapter 5: To each according to his contribution. While I understand that the neoclassical marginal productivity theory of income distribution is flawed, I don’t understand how a new economic theory would be implemented to change employee’s wages.
At the moment, employee’s wages are determined by whatever the going market price is, so an employer can look at current data and pay an employee that annual income.
What would a new (correct) wage determination policy be like?
April 29th, 2009 at 12:36 am
hi clive,
re your point about the coersive power of multi nationals,
galbraith senior was asked this question once by a jounalist, and i think his answer was instructive,
and that was , that the coersive and confiscatory power of the state well and truely overwhelmed the power of multi nationals and chicago school economists.
the point is pinochet et al let them in, and if they wanted to they could have kicked them out again
April 29th, 2009 at 1:02 am
hi gamma,
re your point on the coersive power of unions,
we wouldnt have unions if it wasnt for the poor and misguided business practices of SOME businessmen in times past.
its inevitable that if captial seeks to garner privelige and advantage , that labour would do so as well.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:24 am
yes frank, a painfull cocktail indeed,’
i thought alcohol was suppossed to numb the pain frank,
i think the picture will be complicated, with some consumables like food and oil going up, along with some commodities,
but FIRE assets deflating, eg equities and real estate.
whether we get inflation in FIRE assets is closer to being a 40 trillion dollar question as oppossed to being a 4 trillion dollar question. there is a very big