A new high performance hybrid car has recently been released by a Roring Motors, Inc. According to Managing Director Rory Robertson, the new “GoFlowMobile” ™© achieves unparalleled performance for a hybrid car, by applying a simple insight from economics to the hide-bound world of engineering.
Mr Robertson, an economist, took over the firm in a hostile private equity bid, because he saw an opportunity to bring economic thinking to bear on the vexed issue of designing the world’s fastest hybrid car.
“I read press report after press report about the company’s difficulties in producing a hybrid car that was as fast as a conventional one”, Mr Robertson explained, “and suddenly the light dawned: the designers were obsessed about all sorts of ratios that involved comparing stocks to flows!”
“As an experienced and well-trained economist, I knew that comparing a stock to a flow was a schoolboy error–like comparing apples with oranges, as Steve Keen does when he compares Debt levels to GDP. So I saw an opportunity to help them make a breakthrough, and I took it.”
Mr Robertson’s first directive on arrival at what used to be known as High Performance EcoMotors, was that no stock to flow ratios were to be used by the design team. Sure enough, in a short while the firm’s engineers achieved a dramatic breakthrough. The new GoFlowMobile achieved performance levels befitting a Ferrari, rather than the sluggish sedan-level performance that was the best achieved by established players like Toyota and Honda.
The technical details behind the car’s success are protected by numerous patents, but Petra Seller, our investigative reporter here at Fantasy Wheels, managed to find out what the key advance was, when she tracked down the company’s recently retired Chief Engineer.
Dr StrangeLove, who took advantage of an attractive voluntary redundancy package shortly before the release of the car, was willing to speak on condition that the location of the mine shaft where he now lives was kept secret.
“The car is so much faster than the opposition because it weighs so much less”, Dr StrangeLove explained. “And it weighs less because it has a 1 litre petrol tank.”
“The comparison of the volume of the fuel tank to the car’s rate of consumption of petrol was an obvious stock to flow comparison”, Dr StrangeLove explained. “When Mr Roberston freed me from the tyranny of schoolboy stock to flow comparisons, I was able to ignore this ratio and focus just on the flow issues.”
“With the same engine size consuming the same maximum amount of fuel per minute, but a far smaller tank, less petrol weight, far less tubing and so on, the car weighs over 200 kilos less than its predecessor. It is also more streamlined, with no need to design the car around a bulky fuel tank. So it goes 20 per cent faster with the same engine as in the previous model.”
When Petra asked about any drawbacks to this radical design, Dr StrangeLove took a while to compose himself before answering that drivers wouldn’t know about this problem until after they had purchased the car, because the car’s advertising also made no references to stock to flow comparisons.
“This also was a great efficiency. Whole pages of PR that used to extol the car’s range between refuelling stops were eliminated–since this number was also the result of comparing a stock to a flow”, Dr StrangeLove explained, while giggling slightly.
As his wheelchair retreated back into the mineshaft, Dr StrangeLove volunteered the closing remark that the car, having been inspired by economic theory, could do its bit to help to resolve the current economic crisis. “I believe there will be plenty of work for unemployed economists now”, he said, “explaining to motorists every 10 kilometres or so that stock to flow comparisons don’t matter.”
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OK, for those who don’t know where this came from, one irritation I’ve had to deal with when debating the financial crisis with neoclassical economists is the proposition that my comparison of the level of debt to GDP is erroneous, because I am comparing a stock (the outstanding level of debt) to a flow (GDP, which records the monetary value of output produced per year in an economy). I’ve had this said to me by an RBA Deputy Governor, as well as numerous economic commentators. Most recently, Rory Robertson repeated the same claim in a newletter, which Chris Joye reproduced in an article in the Business Spectator, Time to buy a dwelling?:
“Dr Steve Keen amongst others continues to make the schoolboy error of comparing debt to income (a stock to a flow – apples to oranges) and misses the main game. “
Every time this furphy has been thrown my way, I’ve tried to explain why this specific ratio does matter. Anyone who is not an economist (a neoclassical economist, that is!) has got it almost instantly. But neoclassical economists, who know nothing about dynamic analysis, keep coming back with this “comparing a stock to a flow is like comparing apples to oranges” nonsense.
While one has to be very careful in dynamic analysis to differentiate stocks from flows, there are many, many times when the ratio between them matters. But getting that through to economists who have no significant training in dynamics at all proved simply impossible.
So I’ve given up on serious discussion: maybe satire might get the point through (sorry Rory, but in a schoolyard sense, you did ask for this one!). Stock to flow comparisons matter because they tell you the capacity of your system to maintain a flow. They abound in engineering, which is a discipline in which dynamic analysis is central.
Economists don’t get it because their discipline is still overwhelmingly dominated by static thinking.
An education in dynamic analysis starts with a course in what are known as “Ordinary Differential Equations”. You can’t graduate as an Engineer without having done at least a semester length course in them, and your career–if you work in design–is dominated by applying them to inventing new manufactured goods that (unlike the economy itself) actually work well almost all of the time.
The vast majority of economists, on the other hand, learn what little mathematics they know from other economists in courses on “Mathematical Methods for Economics”, or “Econometrics”, and the like. The vast majority of these courses–certainly at undergraduate level–teach some algebra and calculus (otherwise known as differentiation), but not differential equations (doing the latter requires knowledge of calculus and algebra, but differential equations are inherently more difficult than differentiation). The techniques economists learn are suited to optimisation, and equilibrium calculations, but are irrelevant to dynamics. Differential equations, on the other hand, are essential to the understanding of dynamic systems.
At graduate level, economists sometimes gain basic knowledge of differential equations, but in the courses I have seen, this stops at what are known as second order linear equations. Many of the economists who teach mathematical methods to other economists don’t know anything above this level either. But the interesting, real-world-relevant stuff starts with nonlinear equations, especially higher-order ones (with 3 or more interacting variables).
As a result, comments like Rory’s–that by comparing a stock to a flow I am comparing apples to oranges–look sophisticated to other economists, and might befuddle people with no mathematical training. But in fact, they betray that economists aren’t even equipped to understand dynamic analysis–something that is rather absurd since the economy is clearly dynamic.
This is one of the main reasons why they understand the economy so poorly–and why they didn’t see this crisis coming, whereas I did (and for the record, I did introductory and advanced courses in differential equations with the UNSW Department of Mathematics while completing my PhD in economics).
I’ll finish with one more piece of dynamic analysis. A technique that is drummed into engineers is dimensional analysis: looking at what sort of number results by comparing the dimensions of variables to each other, rather than their values. Let’s apply this to the car example above, and my Debt to GDP comparison, to see whether the resulting dimensions makes sense. If so, they would be relevant considerations in whether one should buy a car, and in how you assess the health of an economy. If not, they could justly be ignored.
The ratio of a car’s fuel tank size to the engine’s fuel consumption (at a given speed) is a comparison of litres to litres per minute. The resulting ratio is minutes:
Litres/Litres/Minute = Minutes
The stock to flow comparison of a car’s petrol tank to its usage of petrol per minute therefore tells you how long you will get between refuelling stops from a given car driven at a given speed. I would suggest you don’t buy a car to which the value of that ratio is “3 minutes”, no matter how fast it might travel in the meantime.
The ratio of Debt to GDP is a comparison of dollars to dollars per year. The resulting ratio is years:
Dollars/Dollars/Year = Years
Does this matter when assessing the health of an economy? You betcha. Especially when that economy has been booming along on an orgy of debt-financed speculative spending. The ratio tells you how many years it would take to reduce debt to zero, if all of GDP were devoted to doing that.
Now of course it won’t be, and of course any attempt to do so would backfire because, with all income being directed at debt repayment, the economy would collapse for want of effective demand and GDP itself would fall and… hey, isn’t that what’s actually happening?
Not because all of income is being directed at debt repayment, of course–that is impossible–but because rather than spending being augmented by additional borrowing, spending is now less than income as individuals (both firms and households) struggle to repay debts.
That is an instance of where I have correctly applied dimensional analysis to add a flow to the rate of change of a stock: I regard aggregate spending in the economy as the sum of GDP (a flow) plus the change in debt (also a flow). Add the two, and you get the actual sum spend in the economy–aggregate demand (conventional economists, who are misled into regarding money and debt as irrelevant to the performance of the real economy, don’t consider the change in debt in their models).
The ratio of the change in debt to aggregate demand yields a dimensionless number that tells you how much of aggregate demand is debt financed. Since debt finance can turn on a dime–it can go from expanding to contracting virtually overnight–this ratio can tell you more about where the economy is headed than virtually any other indicator.
IF, that is, that “apples to oranges” comparison of debt to GDP returns a large number–because then changes in debt will also be much, much larger than changes in GDP. If, on the other hand, that number is very small–as it was back in the 1960s–then changes in GDP will be larger than changes in debt, and the latter will have little influence on overall economic activity.
The power of this indicator is obvious when you look at the correlation between this ratio (Annual Change in Debt/[Annual Change in Debt plus GDP]) and the unemployment rate. Back in the 1960s, when the Debt to GDP ratio was low (80-100% in the USA, and between 25-30% in Australia), there was no particular correlation. Now, with extremely high debt to GDP ratios (297% in the USA, 159% in Australia [down from a peak of 165%, but I expect it will rise again in the near future]) the correlation is overwhelming.
The causal mechanism behind this is that, when the debt contribution to demand drops in a country with a high Debt to GDP ratio, aggregate demand collapses. Unemployment rises soon after. The process is well under way in the USA–which is why de-leveraging is now the key force driving economic activity there. And it is starting in Australia:
It won’t end with debt to GDP levels of zero of course (I’ve seen it said that I am anti-debt, and that’s nonsense: I am anti-debt when it finances asset price speculation, but recognise the legitimate role of debt in financing investment and the working capital needs of firms). But will will end with debt levels substantially below current ones, and if we let that process occur “naturally”, it will take many many years to complete. And unemployment will go through the roof.
It will also quite probably start with an increase in the debt to GDP ratio, as has recently happened in the USA. America’s ratio has jumped sharply from 290% three months ago to 296.7% in the most recent Flow of Funds data (published by the Federal Reserve last week).
The reason is, of course, that though the rate of growth of debt has plummeted, both real output and prices are falling in the USA, and at rates that haven’t been seen since the last Great Depression. The same phenomenon drove the debt to GDP ratio in the USA from 176% at the end of 1929 to a peak of 238% in the depths of the Depression in 1932.
Today, the USA has only begun the process of debt-deleveraging and deflation, and it has a debt to GDP ratio of almost 300%. That implies the process of returning to a “a ‘good financial society’ in which the tendency by businesses and bankers to engage in speculative finance is constrained” (quoting Hyman Minsky) may take a good deal longer than it did in 1930.
Yes Rory, sometimes stock to flow comparisons do matter.
(Any economist who wants to learn a lot about differential equations should buy a copy of Differential Equations and Their Applications : An Introduction to Applied Mathematics by Martin Braun. It’s an extremely well written and engaging introduction to an area that should be a foundational study for economists, but is neglected by a discipline that is still locked in a 19th century, pre-dynamic mindset.)






March 14th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Steve,
A friend of mine who works for the company tells me that the new model will have a MacQUBSCITIMERRILBROS fitted between the fuel tank and engine. It is a highly complex device designed by ex MacQuarie, UBS, Lehman Bros & other economists which enables additional fuel to be made out of thin air simply by squirting normal fuel through this alchemisticonomistical device, thus overcoming the frequent fuel stops that those ordinary people who are not masters of the universe seem to have complained about. However the company will not be releasing details of how it works as it would simply be too complicated for normal people to understand, and may in fact cause their heads to explode!!
March 14th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Dear Professor Keen
I’m sorry but this comment/question is not related to the above article. I don’t pretend to understand the maths underlying economics and economic theory. My reading (mainstream and alternative) about what is going on in the world today in relation to the global financial crisis is leading me to think that there will be bigger issues emerging. This crisis, combined with climate change and political hotspots (eg-Afghanistan, Middle East, Korea, Pakistan, Africa and poorer EU countries) may lead to serious tensions between countries. Much of what I’ve read has alluded to such tensions and civil unrest but it has been in passing, as you did in your BNet interview. I will be blunt, WWII ended the Great Depression, is there a possibility that history may repeat itself? This is my greatest fear. I can live with declining superannuation, stock markets, house prices etc (rising unemployment is a worry) but another world war will be even more catastrophic. How will governments keep the lid on civil unrest? I have found it difficult finding any literature on this issue and wondered what your thoughts were. Thank you.
March 14th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
A bit off-topic, perhaps, but the following article is a good contribution to the deflation vs inflation debate.
http://www.prudentbear.com/index.php/commentary/creditbubblebulletin?art_id=10202
The conclusion is that the US federal government is successfully counter-balancing the collapse in private sector debt creation with surging public sector debt creation. This is keeping the collapse of the system at bay.
I’ve been following Doug Noland from Prudent Bear for quite a while. I think he’s an excellent analyst (he saw the credit crunch coming a long time ago) and his weekly “Credit Bubble Bulletin” started in 2004 I think is a must-read. His belief is that we should be entering a period of extreme deflation as Steve predicts but the US government will do everything it takes to reverse the process (an elaborate form of suicide).
March 14th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
It is quite possible that the stock isn’t the problem, it is the flow to create the stock that is the problem, and the sudden change in direction. Possibly if we built up a huge debt level over centuries rather than decades, it would all be fine because if everyone stopped borrowing it wouldn’t make that much difference to the economy because debt change would be so small. There is the problem that interest rates would need to be low, which I think is a question on its own.
It might also explain the Japanese problem, their debt was less than many other countries but had increased very rapidly.
Now lets see how many other people can post ON topic.
March 14th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Ernest Rutherford – “Physics is the only real science. The rest are just stamp collecting.”
Much of economics is simply basket weaving but then again one needs to be carful not to appear arrogant.
March 14th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Obviously these guys have never run a business. When you compare cash at bank (a stock) to monthly expenditure (a flow) it tells you how long before you run out of money (a time).
But equilibrium models don’t deal with time, so you can be in equilibirum and still go broke!
March 14th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
The final line in Doug Nolans report states
“The worst case scenario unfolds when our creditors and the marketplace turn against these government obligations. ”
Could the comments made by China’s Premier Wen Jiabao that they are “concerned about the safety of Chinese investments” be the first sign of that worst case scenario?
Given the amazing level of quantitative easing now occurring I cannot see how China’s investments will hold their value in real terms (assuming quantitative easing works, though I don’t believe it will, but I assume they do). They of course have an even greater interest in maintaining the status quo in the hope their export markets will reappear. However Japan, Gulf States and other countries may see this as China being the first to blink in this Mexican standoff . . . . oh bugg**!!
March 14th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
As I understand it neoclassical economists agree that debt is essential for growth.
How then can they deny the link between debt & GDP?
March 14th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
These guys have never run a household either.
If debt levels are too high and payments on loans become too much when compared with income, no one eats by the end of the week.
March 14th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Steve,
The hybrid car metaphor shows the limitations of economic analysis brilliantly. This sheds some more light on your response to a question I asked about your theoretical framework. I recall that you replied and your analytical framework was
“a combination of complexity theory and, generally speaking, Post Keynesian thinking, though with a large dose of Schumpeter and evolutionary economics..”
I am aware of most of those ideas (apart from complexity theory). However, I was puzzled when you said that you worked “exclusively in differential equations and dynamics”.
Does your book “debunking Economics” give some examples of this analysis?
I bookmarked Jon Stewart’s the Daily show from the Black humour post. Since that episode there has been an amusing war of words between Jim Cramer of CNBC and Jon Stewart. Last night Jim Cramer of CNBC’s Mad Money appeared on The Daily show and was totally owned by Jon Stewart. Steward ate him alive.
The url is
http://www.hulu.com/watch/62203/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-thu-mar-12-2009#s-p1-so-i0
Interestingly, the audience response showed just how disaffected the public was with the financial sector. With the mood clearly favouring change lets hope leads to a much needed Kuhnian paradigm shift in economics.
March 14th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Sorry the link I posted wont work outside the USA
Try
http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/index.jhtml?episodeId=220533
March 14th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
hi zulu,
i understand macquarie are thinking of naming their car the ponzi mark 3.
they will not only sell you the car but will buy it back , re value it and sell it on to another poor sucker(err i mean customer).
March 14th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Thanks for the laugh Steve! Good to see good humour being employed and the focus on the arguement rather than your immediate detractors. The effects of debt growth beyond GDP is a conversation people everywhere should be having – together with its effects on the global environment – and all viewpoints need a voice if a true and broad understanding is to (slowly) emerge. Science for one needs to be heard above the din of current political and financial self interest.
Time will tell how much people can clarify this debate. Of course we do learn primarily through pain and suffering, miasma and fiasco so it’s a long distance swim!
I wish this conversation could become more mainstream!
March 14th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Steve
Great article – sometimes it takes satire for the point to be made for those not willing to listen…
Zulu / Mahaish
as i understand it, AIG sell financial derivative products (sorry insurance) which protect the owners of the “GoFlowMobile” cars from the possibility that they do in fact run out of fuel. The payout on this derivative is equivalent the going rate of 1 litre of unleaded petrol, each and every time this event occurs.
Of course the cost of purchasing such a contract from AIG is greater than the lifetime cost of buying fuel for the car and when it comes time to honour this agreement as and when the “GoFlowMobile” does run out of petrol – the derivatives are worthless.
March 14th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Say I walked 10 kilometers in 2 hours. The comparison of 10 kilometers to 2 hours is clearly wrong because distance can not be compared to time (assuming the meaning of the word comparison as “the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another” – see http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comparison )
The RATIO between these two however is quite OK and produces useful information – my speed being 5 km/h.
Steve, In the light of that I would question your use of “comparison” where “ratio” would have been perhaps more appropriate. For example I would have written “Stock to flow ratio matter because…” instead of “Stock to flow comparisons matter because…”
As it stands Mr Robertson does have a point – stock should not be compared to flow.
March 14th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
I probably shouldn’t write this (I don’t want to poison people in Australia with the Eastern European toxic thinking) but I couldn’t resist…
You probably don’t remember what happened in Poland in late 80-early 90-ties. I remember very well. This was called a hyperinflation. The government couldn’t balance finances and the economy was not market-based so they only could print more and more money to keep things going.
The great printing of money has just started in the UK.
I think that one thing is missing in the analysis made by prof. Keen. The fact that debt can be easily “repaid” when enough money is printed. Look I saw that, it really “works” for a while (of course the side effects are severe – the extreme case is Zimbabwe but Mugabe is still in power there so you cannot say that it doesn’t serve the purpose). Enough for the US means not 2 trillion USD but, say, 50 trillion over 10 years. This is exactly what the Chinese PM is worried about (because he studied Marxist economy he can see that).
There are 2 possibilities how the current crisis can be solved- by re-inflating the debt bubble and postponing the collapse by a few years (this is what the US gov hopes to do – until the next elections) or by starting printing massive amount of money in the not-so-distant future because nobody will buy the US gov. bonds any more (and the show must go on).
The show must go on…
From the stability of the political system point of view the western governments must intervene – or deal with social unrests on an unprecedented scale. In 1933 in Germany the political and business oligarchy chose Adolf Hitler to save the country from the risk of socialists (and later communists) taking power. I would say that this is fortunately not going to happen again because the lesson has been learned and the savings of so-called middle class might be sacrificed but nobody can afford to have 40% unemployment rate – and then a dictator and a war. That’s why I dare to say – they will start printing money in the US when US gov. bonds loose their appeal and if they start sliding down that slippery slope – the process will spin out of control. It has to get worse before it gets any better.
To prof. Keen – would it be possible to include massive “quantitative easing” in your models and run the simulation again assuming that the debt will be repaid with negative effective interest rates and massive injections of US dollars? Could you tell us what the result is?
The model can be calibrated using historical data from Poland (here I might be able to help finding data however we should keep in mind that the economy was not “market-based” and in fact the experiment failed – communism collapsed in 1989) or probably some Latin American countries.
To all who don’t believe that such an intervention is possible – look at the Chinese economy how massively distorted their financial market is. The government is performing the largest dumping operation in history by artificially keeping the exchange rate low – what means that nobody in the developed world is ever able to compete with their artificially cheap labour price. If their post-Marxist government can perform a mega-scale market distortion operation – why not us (or the US)?
Could anyone explain to me where the experiment with China (which helped to inflate the debt bubble) would lead without the current collapse? 10 more years of the massive trade surplus – the Chinese growing their GDP by 10% every year – what production will be left anywhere else? What the Western countries can sell them – ringtones to mobile phones, Web 2.0 rubbish or evergreened patents on things invented 100 years ago or maybe our “celebrities” with silicone breasts? (At least the Chinese don’t care about all this rubbish except for silicone).
Paradoxically the collapse now and the hyperinflation soon will save us from the global Chinese domination acquired by stealth. Imagine them keeping the massive trade surplus for a few more years and selling US gov bonds at some point of time only to buy all the mines in Australia (they can afford to buy some even now), Microsoft, Intel, AMD, Oracle, Boeing, General Electric, Haliburton in the US, etc… at discount prices. Who will make our tanks, warplanes, submarines, missiles? Will we have enough money to buy some discount wares from the 70-ties from Russia to defend ourselves?
Or maybe the old dream of Mr. Keating will become true if one day we discover that we are an Asian country.
Whatever people say – the continental Chinese are nationalist Post-Communists and even now they are flexing their muscles. I am all too familiar with the propaganda terms used by them to describe “the enemies of the People”. That’s why the rise and rise of the Post-Communist China worried me a lot. I saw the country and it is more an authoritarian regime with a very strong nationalism than a totalitarian one. But the way they can influence our economy and then gently apply pressure to our politicians and business oligarchy means that we may soon not be able to put any pro-Tibet comments on the Internet any more. So paradoxically the crisis may save our freedom by sacrifying some of our fake “wealth”.
The exponential growth of debt is unsustainable. This is obvious to me (I studied electronic engineering, I know when the current rises exponentially in an electrical circuit usually something melts down a while later). This crisis will come and go. Now about the real question I have in my mind and for which I have no response:
Who can tell me for how long the global economy can sustain an exponential growth? I am not talking about global warming (I’m pessimistic whether anything serious can be done to limit CO2 emissions) but exhausting cheap reserves of oil etc. The unsustainable growth must stop. Not the development of new technologies but the dirty cheap growth of our energy consumption and the environmental footprint. Will we see another billion cars driven in China and India? Where will the wood be harvested from if there is no rainforest left in Amazon or Indonesia?
What if this crisis is the end of the global exponential growth which has been around for the last 250 years? Or if the growth-debt bubble can be reinflated for a while only to burst even louder in a few years time?
I would say that economists (and businesses and oligarchies and the governments) only tend to maximise the GDP growth. What for? What is this growth needed for? Will I have 7 cars when our GDP grows 50%? Will I live in a 10 rooms mansion? (well I will be dead by that time so at least I don’t have to whinge). But artificially throttling the growth (what some greenies suggest) is not an option because there is an international race – a competition. Whoever stops racing, looses and there is no mercy (look at Africa).
In my opinion the exponential growth model was in short time “good” for everyone equally in rich and poor countries. The overconsumption financed by ever expanding debt (also taken from our environment) is an easy solution – everyone has a job and is busy buying useless rubbish. Some of this “wealth” falls from the table of the rich and helps the poor make their living. (And helps them breeding like rabbits – see when they will start killing each other what is sad because they are our brethern).
When the crisis broke out we have suddenly discovered that we can stop buying cars every 3 years – they usually last 15 years or so. This great discovery is what corresponds to the bend on the curve on one of prof. Keen’s graphs. But suddenly other inherent system problems start to appear – unemployment, poverty, frustration of the people. Not everyone needs to work to keep people well fed, dressed up and having a place to live. I would say that we can be supplied by the Chinese – we don’t need to do anything.
So when the economy switches over to the “stagnation” mode what will happen to the poor people, to the unemployed, to the vulnerable? What will happen to the overpopulated countries where poor people have been brainwashed by the Islamist hardliners?
Please bear in mind – socialism and all these great alternatives do not work, this has been tested many times, if you don’t believe me you need to travel to any post-communist country and just ask random people. So my real question is – what will we do with the drunken sailor when he suddenly wakes up with that terrible headache?
Dear Professor Keen these are a few political and social issues which may influence the validity of your models. That’s why I haven’t sold my house and I am a bit more optimistic than you. The life on Earth will survive. And I may not have to become an Asian too.
March 14th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Steve,
Thanks very much for this post. It’s entertaining watching the demolition of Neo-classical economics. More importantly though, once again you share very pertinent information with us. And need I say it , you have been FAR more helpful to an average Aussie family trying to chart a course through the GFC and beyond than anything in mainstream Australian media or Finance- or elsewhere here for that matter.
I would very much appreciate an elaboration if you could on what your models tell you on two points;
- At the present rate of debt de-leveraging in Australia and the rate you expect into the future, by your estimate, how far into the future would you expect the process to reach its nadir?
- You have mentioned elsewhere your estimates of Australian unemployment to reach high teens. Are your models that identify this based on purely Aus GDP performance estimations or do they contain as well inputs from external or Global origin?
Thanks.
March 14th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
As usual I always find Steve’s articles fascinating, but as I can only agree with what he says I have no comment on this topic.
Instead I want to ask about another matter. (Incidentally Steve, I am unclear about the protocal in dealing with another topic; but I fear if I put this blog under the previous article nobody will read it?)
My question is to homes4aussies to see if he can help me with this one?
As recently as today I read that the ANZ Bank claims Australia will have a shortage of 250,000 homes by 2010. The numbers vary but there have been many assertions that we have a housing shortage, including from the prestigious BIS Shrapnel.
On the other hand on the internet there are those who say the housing shortage is a myth and one article quotes the census figures of 2006 which shows 830,000 unoccupied dwellings, or 10% of all dwellings. The article by Bob Wilson on 24 June 2008 calls them “vacancies”. However, as I understand it these numbers refer to dwellings that did not have a person staying in the dwelling that night and therefore if a family was away on holidays the house would be classified as unoccupied. Is this correct?
Is there information available that splits the unoccupied status by people temporarily absent and truly vacant dwellings?
Also when banks, real estate institutions and the like talk about a housing shortfall, do they mean housing for the homeless, i.e. those who cannot afford to buy or rent a house? Or, does it mean that there are people who have the money (or can borrow it), who are unable to buy a house because there aren’t enough of them?
I find the whole topic of housing shortages quite unclear. Is there some way that one can assert with clarity whether there is or isn’t a housing shortage? And what kind of housing this refers to?
Finally, do analysts use a set average number of residents per dwelling to determine housing adequacy, because a shortage can obviously be created by assuming a lower occupancy rate and a surplus of housing could be derived by using a higher average number of people per house?
March 14th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
A very amusing and educational post. Well done.
I suppose potential property investors that compare yield with capital value are guilty of flow to stock comparisons, along with bond coupon recipients, share holders, farmers, etc.
How on earth do these economists run their personal budgets?!
March 14th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Excellent post Steve. Thanks
March 14th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
I’ll leave homes4aussies to answer your detailed questions–since he knows that area better than I do–but on the question of where to post, if you send a post to an old topic, the email will still be sent out to subscribers, and I will also see it on the comments page of Wordpress, which is where I write most of my replies from.
Incidentally, I’d better apologise in advance for not replying as often as I would like from now on. The volume of posts has become rather overwhelming, and I’m also trying to start a book, so I am likely to miss quite a few posts from now on.
We will also probably trial the discussion list idea shortly, which might make the “on topic” issue less of a concern.
March 14th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Hi Macca,
I haven’t quantitatively calibrated my models–and I don’t yet think they’re up to doing that in any case. But on an “eyeball” basis, I would expect that unless we take drastic action on debt reduction, the natural attrition process of debt repayment and bankruptcy could take 10-15 years to sort its way down to a sustainable level of debt.
The unemployment estimates are also similarly eyeball based (but informed, as is everything else, by my nonlinear models of debt deflation and my knowledge of Minsky etc.). When I claim a level of at least 15 percent unemployment being maintained for several years, it’s on the basis that it has to be worse than 1990, when debt levels peaked at only slightly over half their current “stock to flow” level.
March 14th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Actually Otto, perhaps you are on topic because this relates to a stock and flow comparison – except, in this case, the economists are sticking strictly to their apples to apples comparison when they also need to be considering oranges.
As I understand it, economists assertion that we have an undersupply of housing is based on household formation rate and the rate of dwelling construction.
But what they also need to be considering is the current stock of housing (down to the number of bedrooms). My mate Dan at bubblepedia has done a great job of documenting and analysing this issue – I assume your comment about census data relates to that site – so may I suggest that you also post a question on that site and I am sure Dan will eagerly reply.
Yes, I agree that this whole issue is very merky – and when you see ministers, the RBA and every spruiker under the sun using this issue in denying we have bubble, then perhaps we can see why it is deliberately left unclear.
One thing to consider – all of the federal housing policies since October – including within the two stimulus packages and the expansion of the national rental affordability scheme – can be seen as policies to reduce the overhang of new inventory before it is even known to the market (all of these policies are meant to stimulate building, but ALL have the “flexibility” to buy recently completed stock from developers, and I would suggest that is their main aim – in fact, I have been reliably informed that that certainly has been the case. See blog section of my website for correspondence with senators before the vote on the last stimulus package)
March 14th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
yes homes4aussies,
and also to push against any liquidation in the investment housing market given the liquidation in the share market.
March 14th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
True Mahaish, actually, there is an enormous incentive to liquidate investment properties at the moment – not just because it is the one investment class that is yet to correct to a significant extent, but because of the old end of financial year sell your loss making equities (and rebuy) to crystallise a capital loss to offset against other capital gains. With 50% falls already in share prices, no better time to offset the capital gain from this housing bubble and then buy shares at much closer to fair value than over the last few years or current housing prices….
March 14th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
hi zulu
re chinas concerns,
how shall i put it
china is the US’s new girlfriend. even though the boyfriends a gambling philanderer, she’s going to stick by him for the time being. shes got too much invested in the relationship. shes even been financing his gambling habit.
shes hoping he’ll do the right thing and pay her back one day.
not a good basis for a sound relationship.
who knows they might grow old and cranky together.
they are going to try and make it work for the time being,
but by my reckoning it might not even be money issues that eventually lead to splitsville.
its probably going to be a fight about who owns the silverware or who controls the neighborhood thats going to undo the whole thing.
March 14th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
The motoring press reported breathlessly on the “GoFlowMobile” ™©. They were particularly impressed that it doubled its speed every 5 minutes.
“This is so much better than those boring cars that just cruise along at the same speed all the time” said the top motoring reporter for the leading city newspaper.
Other car manufacturers were looking at ways of replicating the constant acceleration produced by the new technology.
March 14th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
actually home4aussies,
given PE ratios where they are, and what the PE ratios usually are in major recessions, cant see fair value until the market reaches 1600 or less. a scary thought for those who still own shares
March 14th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Yep, fair enough Mahaish – I occasionally update my graph of the All Ords price versus 10 year trailing earnings (as recommended by Ben Graham, and adopted by Shiller) and it certainly is still not cheap. I was also talking about international shares, and I tend to agree with Jeremy Grantham’s analysis that they’ve reached fair value. That’s not to say they won’t get cheaper. My main point was that they are a lot closer to fair value than Aussie housing
March 14th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
That’s pretty funny.
Stock to flow ratios don’t matter? Oh well, I guess I won’t be needing this then anymore:
V=IR
March 14th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
point taken home4aussies,
yes , i think the long term affordibility average for housing is 3 to 1. what are we now about 7 to 1 or less. depends on which market though-you might be able to enlighten me on this
March 14th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Stock to flow ratios don’t matter! HAHAHA. Well that’s the world’s water problems solved in a dash then isn’t it? Who needs reservoirs? This is totally insane.
It’s clear now, looking at those graphs, it wasn’t the Nixon shock that sparked of a credit bubble in 1971, it was the overwhelming abundance of LSD. This is what happens if you give a tripped out hippie a calculator.
March 14th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
The data you’re looking for is in the demographia report, released in January of this year.
http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
“Of the 6 countries surveyed – Australia has the worst housing affordability with 24 of its 27 major urban
markets severely unaffordable.
Of the 265 urban markets surveyed by Demographia, the Sunshine Coast in Queensland has the most severely unaffordable housing within the English speaking world, with housing prices 9.6 times household earnings – above that of Honolulu at 9.1 times, the Gold Coast, Queensland 8.7, Vancouver, Canada 8.4, Sydney Australia 8.3, San Francisco 8.0, Los Angeles 7.2, New York 7.0 and London, United Kingdom at 6.9 annual household earnings.”
But remember that house prices never fall. Keep repeating this as you take the FHOG money for your deposit.
March 14th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
I can just imagine it. LOL.
Bush (taking a hit off the bong): “Hey Alan. How much money we got?”
Greenspan: (totally dilated pupils) “You ain’t gonna believe it man if I tell ya”
Bush: “…wow…er….like a lot or a little?”
Greenspan: “Like cosmic quantities, it’s hard to explain..”
Bush (coughing great plumes of smoke): “Cosmic, wow….like how much?”
Greenspan: “We got…get this man…an INFINITE amount of money. INFINITE man!”
Bush (totally freaked out) “How the hell did that happen? How much is infinite?”
Greenspan: “It’s a lot. Some surfer dude back in ‘68 put me onto it. It’s so simple too…..like the paperclip, man ….we just print as much as we want man”
Bush: “Far out!….”
Greenspan:”Yeah….”
Bush:”….”
Greenspan : “Yeah”
Bush:”Is …like…infinite..is that more than a hundred?”
March 14th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
Hi AK,
If printing money to pay off debt works. Why wait till you are too indebted to start printing? Why not just print from day 1. Why weren’t they printing 10 years ago?
It doesn’t work. It has never worked.
Also in the US case, it won’t cause hyper-inflation. The credit destruction underway is too great. Money enters their system through the banks. If you give the banks $50T who will they lend it to. No one wants more debt.
They would have to give free money (in massive numbers) to ordinary people. Not banks. Let’s say each family in the US gets $50,000 a year. Why go to work and why pay off debt?
This would cause ordinary people to quit their jobs and live off the handouts. Production would crash and the real economy would crumble. Also as soon as the handouts stop there would be no income or economy left. No means to pay back the debt later.
You say the US would do this for political reasons. It’s political suicide not salvation. It will not happen. If it was true no one would have worked for the last 200 years. We would have all just lived off printed money. Mankind has to work if they want to eat.
March 14th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
Great stuff, good to see everyone still has a sense of humor!! We’re gonna need it in the next decade or two . . . . .
March 14th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Priceless Frank!
March 15th, 2009 at 1:00 am
What worries me is the Ponzi Flier Super GoFlowTrain™© which is fueled by the same goflow process. Its got a very small fuel tank and the passengers need to fork out for fuel purchases every pay day.
Now this train takes you from school to retirement and like all good national socialist projects is financed by the passengers on a government compelled basis. There are many train operators and they are all “private enterprise”. We are given little information about these operators in various “disclosure documents” which disclose very little. They seen to keep the “comercial in confidence” info confidential. Some of these oprators may have even been sold to foreign operators. But we do have people called “trustees” to give us a warm and fuzzy feeling as we doze off in the comfy seats.
You can choose which operator to pay for your fuel contribution. This “choice” encourages advertisements which help finance the in-train entertainment with TV adds featuring various economists playing with graphs showing “wealth” (or is this greed?) graphed against “years”, (or is that time?) We even see balancing acts (or, — is that equilibrium acts) on these graphs and workers in fancy dress.
Like all good communist schemes it is financed on a “from each according to his meens” basis so we each pay 9% of our pay to top up the goflow tank.
We can all choose to ride “up front” in “market growth class” but this makes you first at the crash. Further back we have “balanced class”. Right at the rear we have “interest only class” which will be last at the first crash but first at the next crash when the train is rear ended.
I have chosen to ride at the rear.
Whats this! The front of the train has crashed!
When will I get there? Are we at retirement station so we can get off? But, but, there is no such thing as time? is there?? This can’t be happening!
The questtion is:
Are our very substantial contributions to superannuation keeping the Oz bubble intact a little longer than the other bubbles which are bursting around the world? Just how Ponzi is Australian Super?
March 15th, 2009 at 2:29 am
Intrigued by the stocks and flow discussion, I came across a fantastic January 2001 description of the inflating the US’s real estate bubble. It includes detractors (stock vs flow) and the mechanism for the asset inflation, with dire predictions. It is an extract of Doug Noland’s “Credit Bubble Bulletin”. When Doug wrote this I imagine he wasn’t expecting something like eight years for it to play out…
March 15th, 2009 at 2:31 am
Oops.
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=14118833&sort=whole#14149987
March 15th, 2009 at 6:05 am
Seriously though:
US gnp = $13.8 trillion
If 300% private debt/gnp is accurate, then
US private debt = $40 trillion
cost of printing debt free US Lincoln greenbacks and paying every adult $1000/month and every dependent child $500/month = $3.5 trillion/year
Does anyone think that giving US citizens this kind of spending money is going to be inflationary?
I think not.
March 15th, 2009 at 7:24 am
As you know, I’ve set up your equation system from your Bailing out the Titanic with a Thimble paper on a spreadsheet.
With respect to the case of a 50% credit crunch at year 30, which you show in Figure 15, I’ve found that by giving the household accounts (WD = worker deposits in the model) a cash infusion of 0.05 FD (FD = Firm deposit in the model, analogous to GNP) starting at year 32, a complete recovery of the pre-crunch growth rate can be obtained even if the banks continue hoarding.
While I don’t know how this system relates to the present US economy, if the US Treasury was to print up, debt free, an amount equivalent to 0.05 of the US GNP, that amount would be about $700 billion, which is less than the US Treasury has spent on those criminal banks that are now running the entire world.
At some point, it becomes delusional to not believe in conspiracies.
March 15th, 2009 at 7:32 am
Thanks Warren, That’s the sort of thought experiment I’m trying to make straightforward using the model.
A the moment though, it doesn’t include the factors that are necessary to generate the debt-deflation we’re currently experiencing: that will take incorporating my Minsky model within it, which is something I hope to start on in April. So recovery from the current model’s debt levels is easy–in fact it generates a ceiling level of about 40% Debt to GDP, which is less than the lowest level experienced by the USA in the last 60 years.
And on conspiracies, I have no problem believing in them–I just have a problem believing that they work. For that to happen, (a) the people designing them have to know what they’re doing and (b) they have to execute them perfectly with (c) no credible information about it leaking to the public. Most would-be conspirators fall over at (a).
March 15th, 2009 at 8:29 am
If stock to flow ratios were unimportant then there would be no need for Viagra. Perhaps in a few decades when they are aging economists you can remind them of this when the valves blow on their suction pumps.
March 15th, 2009 at 9:08 am
Hi Steve & all.
Following up on conspiracies, these are worth watching, ‘The Obama Deception’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0miM20KXWIA&feature=related
For those that have the time, watch all 12, makes for interesting viewing.
Cheers CK.
March 15th, 2009 at 10:08 am
On the estimate of debt for your model… Actual US Debt figures understate the true picture of US liabilities as unfunded retirement and health care obligations already incurred and which will rise dramatically with the retirement of the baby boomers are not included.
The US government doesn’t even keep this on its books.
This places government debt and unfunded obligations at $56 or roughly $483,000 per U.S.
That amount excludes private business and personal debt and state government debt.
see http://www.pgpf.org/
March 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Mahaish
I agree with SIM that Demographia is a good place to start. Though I am not all that interested in precise numbers reached – either the specific ratio for a particular city, or the categorisation of (un)affordability as I don’t think it’s as black and white as a ratio of 3. I suggest that it is extremely valuable as a comparison of affordability between countries.
I actually think there is limited value to assigning a specific figure to fair value for the ASX, as I do to Aussie housing. I think qualitative assessment is more meaningful.
For me, the general test is the common sense (or anti-bullshit) one (hey, if the PM can “slip” on TV
). I would argue that any intelligent, reasonable person – without a vested interest – if presented with the Demographia report, Steve’s CPD paper, the following graphs from Tony Richard’s (RBA) paper, and recent HIA/Comm Bank home affordability series, would conclude that it is clear that Australia has about the most unaffordable housing in the Anglophone world.
http://www.rba.gov.au/Speeches/2008/_Images/270308_so_graph1.gif
http://www.rba.gov.au/Speeches/2008/_Images/270308_so_graph7.gif
I actually emailed Tony Richards specifically about the second graph, the international comparison. It is in fact price to household disposable income, which makes sense to me as the best ratio to use. What I find most interesting about this graph is that we have had the least affordable housing amongst the major Anglophone countries since 1985 (except for one year – 1996 – when NZ pipped us by a small margin). That’s a period of 22 years!! The other point, of course, is that the other countries have been experiencing much stronger house price corrections so an update should show us well clear of the pack. (Tony Richards informed me he will be updating the graph for an upcoming speech, so that will be interesting.)
I think the real important question Aussies need to ask is – is it really in our best interests for taxpayers funds to be used to maintain our position, in fact increase the margin, as having the most expensive housing in the Anglophone world. Besides the social impacts, with so much interest in tax scales to entice skilled labour, surely the need to divert such a much higher portion of disposable income towards a necessity is going to have a major impact on our national competitiveness going forward.
Now I don’t believe they will be able to stem the tide for much longer, but the issue is whether it is desirable to even try…. I suggest Not!
March 15th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
hi steve,
i dont think anyone from macquarie bank should be building cars
dont think macquarie bank would rate very well in the equivalent NCAP safety ratings for financial institutions.
March 15th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
hi BTB
actually the famous economist and part time actor slash famous dude russell crowe had a similar idea on letterman. give everyone a million bucks. problem solved.
maybe we should call this the crowe doctrine, or russellnomics
but i think its a big leap in the dark to suggest people would stop working and production would collapse. think of all the extra crap we could buy, to keep our tormented minds occupied.
mind you , the russell crowe idea is a lot fairer and democratic, compared to whats been going on lately
March 15th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
thanks for the info SIM/home4 aussies-most enlightening.
i suppose thats why an average is an average-because thats where things usually end up-very scary