My railing against the economics profession on this blog might give you the impression that I’m a lone wolf, taking on the economics profession single-handedly. I’m pleased to say that’s not the case; though the rebels are outnumbered by the True Believers in neoclassical economics, there are many academic economists who are critical of the economic orthodoxy.
Recently some highly regarded economists have made this emphatically clear with an eloquent and well argued document entitled “The Financial Crisis and the Systemic Failure of Academic Economics“.
The authors include the well-known economics textbook writer David Colander, and the leading evolutionary game theory researcher Alan Kirman, as well Thomas Lux, a leader in nonlinear dynamic analysis in economics.
Their document is an eloquent insider’s call for serious reformation of economics, and should be read in its entirety by anyone wanting to know how the financial crisis took most academic and industry economists completely by surprise.
Now that the crisis is well and truly upon us, the need to reform economics is no longer an academic issue. But that reform will not come about if left to academic economics departments themselves. The neoclassical way of thinking, whose flaws are brilliantly outlined in this document, is so ingrained that the same curriculum could well continue right up until the moment that the economy collapsed, if left to the economists themselves.
The Dahlem Report should be read and widely distributed–and academic economics departments the world over should be challenged about their response to it. It’s well past high time for the reform of economics.
Excerpts from the Dahlem Report
“The global financial crisis has revealed the need to rethink fundamentally how financial systems are regulated. It has also made clear a systemic failure of the economics profession. Over the past three decades, economists have largely developed and come to rely on models that disregard key factors—including heterogeneity of decision rules, revisions of forecasting strategies, and changes in the social context—that drive outcomes in asset and other markets. It is obvious, even to the casual observer that these models fail to account for the actual evolution of the real-world economy. Moreover, the current academic agenda has largely crowded out research on the inherent causes of financial crises. There has also been little exploration of early indicators of system crisis and potential ways to prevent this malady from developing. In fact, if one browses through the academic macroeconomics and finance literature, “systemic crisis” appears like an otherworldly event that is absent from economic models. Most models, by design, offer no immediate handle on how to think about or deal with this recurring phenomenon.2 In our hour of greatest need, societies around the world are left to grope in the dark without a theory. That, to us, is a systemic failure of the economics profession…”
“The implicit view behind standard models is that markets and economies are inherently stable and that they only temporarily get off track. The majority of economists thus failed to warn policy makers about the threatening system crisis and ignored the work of those who did…”
“This failure has deep methodological roots. The often heard definition of economics—that it is concerned with the ‘allocation of scarce resources’—is short-sighted and misleading. It reduces economics to the study of optimal decisions in well-specified choice problems. Such research generally loses track of the inherent dynamics of economic systems and the instability that accompanies its complex dynamics…”
“In our view, economists, as with all scientists, have an ethical responsibility to communicate the limitations of their models and the potential misuses of their research. Currently, there is no ethical code for professional economic scientists. There should be one…”
“The most recent literature provides us with examples of blindness against the upcoming storm that seem odd in retrospect. For example, in their analysis of the risk management implications of CDOs, Krahnen (2005) and Krahnen and Wilde (2006) mention the possibility of an increase of ‘systemic risk.’ But, they conclude that this aspect should not be the concern of the banks engaged in the CDO market, because it is the governments’ responsibility to provide costless insurance against a system-wide crash…”
“Given the established curriculum of economic programs, an economist would find it much more tractable to study adultery as a dynamic optimization problem of a representative husband, and derive the optimal time path of marital infidelity (and publish his exercise) rather than investigating financial flows in the banking sector within a network theory framework…”
“Currently popular models (in particular: dynamic general equilibrium models) do not only have weak micro foundations, their empirical performance is far from satisfactory (Juselius and Franchi, 2007). Indeed, the relevant strand of empirical economics has more and more avoided testing their models and has instead turned to calibration without explicit consideration of goodness-of-fit… It is pretty obvious how the currently popular class of dynamic general equilibrum models would have to ‘cope’ with the current financial crisis. It will be covered either by a dummy or it will have to be interpreted as a very large negative stochastic shock to the economy, i.e. as an event equivalent to a large asteroid strike…”
“We believe that economics has been trapped in a sub-optimal equilibrium in which much of its research efforts are not directed towards the most prevalent needs of society. Paradoxically self-reinforcing feedback effects within the profession may have led to the dominance of a paradigm that has no solid methodological basis and whose empirical performance is, to say the least, modest. Defining away the most prevalent economic problems of modern economies and failing to communicate the limitations and assumptions of its popular models, the economics profession bears some responsibility for the current crisis. It has failed in its duty to society to provide as much insight as possible into the workings of the economy and in providing warnings about the tools it created. It has also been reluctant to emphasize the limitations of its analysis. We believe that the failure to even envisage the current problems of the worldwide financial system and the inability of standard macro and finance models to provide any insight into ongoing events make a strong case for a major reorientation in these areas and a reconsideration of their basic premises.”






February 26th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
For me this quote nails it:
“In our view, economists, as with all scientists, have an ethical responsibility to communicate the limitations of their models and the potential misuses of their research.”
When the common good is abused through mislabelled bad bonds (GFC), bad assurances/forecasts (economics), bad intelligence (WMD), lying/misleading politicians etc; then surely the things that tie us together begin to weaken, ie – trust. And trust is fundamentally the basis for a sustainable modern financial system and sustainable modern society.
February 26th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Maybe off topic but …
Mr. Keen, I have an “idea” about what a “liquidity trap” might really be and how it might apply to the 1920’s, how it almost applied to the beginning of 2000, and how it might apply now. I need your help to fill in some data from the 1920’s. IT SHOULD TAKE LESS THAN 5 MINUTES TO LOOK AT. Can I email you about it, and if so, can I reply to the email you sent me about emailing Mish (Mike Shedlock)?
Thanks in advance!
February 26th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
I’m just wondering how much national treasure will be wasted in futile attempts at turning around this GFC before it is commonly understood that the basis of most accepted economic modelling for the last 40+ years has been utterly wrong?
It would not surprise me to see in the next year bank runs in Europe and the US, and serious damage showing up in bond markets as soverign default risk grows. In Australia, I think our currency could take another major hit which will exacerbate our ability to honour debt obligations.
February 26th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
BH: “trust is fundamentally the basis for a sustainable modern financial system and sustainable modern society”.
Yes! Exactly!
Way back in the seventies I remember much being made of the economic efficiencies flowing from the level of trust in Western Societies. It was held up as being one of the main advantages Western Societies had over Arab, African and many Asian societies and a reason for the then better historical performance of the Western economies.
Strange then that as the winner take all, hysteria of greed, creed of the 80’s and 90’ took hold it ceased to be mentioned. Guess it’s not PC for neo-cons and neoclassical economics.
February 26th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
hi fred and steve
i actually think we should have a little less fossil fuel and hydrogen power and a little more human power. how about walking or cycling to ones destination. i am sure it would do us all a world of good. goodness knows i like many others could afford to lose a kilo or two. and given where the unemployment rate is likely to be heading , some of us are going to have a lot more time on our hands, so why not walk or cycle. think of the savings to the health budget alone as one lowers ones blood pressure, not to mention our green house reduction target.
and instead of getting in our car and going down to visit our local sceming merchants at coles or woolies, to buy that lovely plastic wrapped produce, how about walking out the back door to ones vegie patch and burn a few more calories growing ones own.
given where the aussie dollar is at the moment and where i think it will be heading, i’m thinking of taking up long distance swimming ,and getting to bali that way for my next holiday, allthough i think hawai or the gold coast might be cheap since the japanese arnt going to be going anywhere anytime soon , given the bus to hell that they are on at the moment.
February 26th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
I wonder if “the Systemic Failure of Academic Economics” should really read “the Systemic Failure of Corporate Economics”? I would include academic neoclassical economics as a subset corporate economics. Basically those guys were hired and in the pay of the corporations. Dissenting views and research are never welcome in corporately funded universities.
February 26th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
Nice article and I think a good follow on from the previous debate.
I think the only way to understand an evolving system is to synchronistically evolve your understanding of the system. Not by design, but again but evolution, the market economists which support the players (or agents if you want to take the evolutionary economist perspective) in the live markets (and please can we leave CJ out of this discussion, the ASX is a relatively small enviroment), have developed a way of assessing the economy which can be described as above. There is a real mechanism for adaptation of the understanding of the way things work. I hope through this forum I am able to better understand this and focus on observing this. I think this approach isn’t shared with academia for several reasons. At least one is that the approach hinges on evolving within the enviroment, which would cease to happen on the ‘outside’ where the infrastructure for doing so is not there.
The other thought I had was about equilibrium. My thinking on this is probably naive. When the notions of equilibrium were first being developed, there was some time lag in price discovery between markets. So if you were an economist during those times you may thing about how the information between those markets eventually converges to an equilibrium balance. Price discovery these days happens almost instantanously in most markets, and this price discovery type equilibrium is simply a balancing out of price with supply and demand for the particular thing that is being traded. Now this happens continuously and does not at all imply that in any longer period of time than that particular instant the same equilibrium applies.
In today’s world it is not necessary to think of equilibrium this way, and I think the notion was born during a time when there was a large time lag between price discovery between different markets it. Now somehow this notion was hijacked, aggregated and abused into the notion that in free markets prices always reach equilibrium. They do always reach equilibrium, otherwise there would be no transactions, but that cannot imply a stable price or ensure the stability of the conditions. The equlibrium is an instant of time when buyer meets seller, not a long term convergence.
February 26th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Curiously enough, I don’t think that’s the case in general. Though there was certainly corporate support for the development of neoclassical economics during the Cold War period in the USA (Phil Mirowski documents some of this), in general neoclassical economists are not at all financially motivated. In fact, for a group of people whose theories have promoted the most rapacious corporate behaviour, they are actually remarkably altruistic. They do what they do not for personal gain, but because they believe they are making the world a better place.
Of course, they are doing almost the exact opposite. In this they remind me of a statement by an old teacher of mine when a student discussion forgave some politician his excesses on the basis that “at least he’s sincere”. “Don’t overrate sincerity, the teacher interjected. The most sincere person you’ll ever meet will be the maniac chasing you down the road with an ax, trying to cut your head off”.
February 26th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
Do we expect a revolutionary change where neoclassical economics will eventually be replaced by another school of thought that would potentially “make the work” a better place? I do feel sympathy for those who have studied these flawed economic theories in modern universities for 3-4 years and suddenly realise it was not fully applicable to the real world.
Unfortunately, when one has invested a considerable amount of “emotion” on a certain belief, it would be almost impossible to change them. Until universities stop teaching these kind of stuff, then perhaps we MAY avoid this kind of crisis from occurring again.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:21 am
Hi Steve,
I bought the digital version of your book “Debunking Economics” just recently: looks very promising, if only I had now enough time and peace to read it with the utmost care and thought it deserves…
I am very grateful that you brought the Lux, Colander, Kirman et al. article to our notice: always been a huge fan of Kirman (and Mirowski, for that matter, hope that he writes about the crisis, too), so reading that stuff was so sweet and pleasurable…
Btw. May I ask your opinion on “Stock Flow Consistent Models”, introduced by Godley, Lavoie and their collaborators – do you think they could provide a tolerable approximation of what real life economic modeling and macroeconomics might look like?
All the best & let us hope that you are wrong and there is still some realistic opportunity to prevent Fisher´s “natural way” to this disaster: “…via needless and cruel bankruptcy, unemployment, and starvation…”
February 27th, 2009 at 1:27 am
I find this paragraph in the section “Unrealistic Model Assumptions and Unrealistic Outcomes” absolutely mind blowing:
“In our view, a change of focus is necessary that takes seriously the regularities in expectation formation revealed by behavioral research and, in fact, gives back an independent role to expectations in economic models”
Some months ago I started out with a simple ambition of creating a simulator of a simple society where people went about doing typical things (shopping, going to work, etc), in order to model money flows and try to look at the macroeconomics of it.
I quickly realised this was going to be completely useless, as I would end up putting quite a bit of effort into programming something that is divorced from reality.
So I decided to spend the time just thinking about the ‘correct’ way to do a macroeconomic simulator. After some time I realised that the way forward was to simulate human decision making. Things like Game Theory are not particularly useful to me, because they do not really help describe the decision making process.
It has got to the point now where I am scouring the web looking for studies on childhood learning. I can see that the way we behave is to some extent determined by inherent traits (genetic) and to some extent by conditioning into typical behavioural patterns in response to recognised situations. (eg: the thrill of driving is *learnt*, but on first contact with driving a car, why do we get a thrill?) We typically make decisions based according to what we or others have done in the past.
We learn through experiencing pleasant surprise or unpleasant shock. These two feelings are contradictions of expectations with different outcomes. One causes us to repeat the action and one causes us to avoid the action and discredit the expectations that led us to that shock.
Anyway, I can see now that while AI is largely focused on recognition of static structures, we as humans are concerned with behaviours (we learn through play), and behaviours typically associated with static objects. We make decisions based on what is a most probable outcome given the scenario, based on past behaviour of ourselves and others.
It is something that economists and politicans alike neglect. When they design a system such as Soviet socialism or a Credit money economy, they forget how people *actually* behave given incentives, and they overlook what *behaviours* might evolve in that framework.
In this sense all such systems are inherently corrupt, and the corruption eventually undoes the system designed.
The only way to design a system where corruption is minimised is to deal with simulated humans, where the simulations are refined based on empirical evidence of human behaviour.
For this reason economics has no other viable future than convergence with the field of artifical intelligence.
February 27th, 2009 at 7:19 am
Frank,
I think the saving grace of the current system is that it is flexible enough to allow evolution. I think you have to consider everything as being part of the system, including regulation and governments. So regulation and government response evolves with the system rather than being external to it and controlling it. Corruption is also part of the system, one which reduces efficiency of the whole for the benefit of the individual, it’s normal for corruption to be there since benefit of the individual is what drives the system in the first place. We have however created a mechanism (through law) which attempts to define, minimise and eliminate corruption, this mechanism also evolves.
A centrally controlled economy, through the mechanism of central control constrains evolution and breeds corruption.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:12 am
TruthIsThereIsNoTruth
People may make studies of people, but there must be something to embody the resulting knowledge. Observing and recording are parts of the process, but for this to be scientific there must be the capability based on that to [i]predict[/i]. Ultimately model of human behaviour must be constructed, and models of human behaviour is what the realm of machine intelligence or artificial consciousness is concerned with. This is much more achievable in the sphere of economics because simulated decision making does not require the processing power of modelling perceived reality, dealing with bodily regulation, locomotion or manipulation of physical entities. Artificial human-like decision making is a doable thing with current processing power.
In the meantime and up until now, those who have wanted to predict have wanted to do so because they have wanted to gain benefit – to be able to lead. They have used models but in using those models they have attempted to also enforce constraints on people. It is considered sometimes illegal to short sell for example. Why?
Then there are those such as Marx who have proposed alternatives by constructing systems emergent from critiques of the prevailing system. These are little more than semantic constructs because they do not deal with the reality of human behaviour.
In short, all systems so far, whether they be supposed, imposed or proposed, are ‘corrupt’ – in the sense that they are not in line with the absolute and empirically observed system of what people actually do.
There is a clear and ultimate holy grail for all sciences, and that is a model that matches fully the objective truth, whatever that may be. To the extent that economics limits itself, this holy grail must be a simulation of human behaviour in some arbitrary contexts, which necessitates simulation of human decision making at least, and at most simulation of humans.
The current system is, in my opinion, failed. The time has come to stop announcing its impending or actual failure, but to recognise its current failure and propose the next steps. However, every system fails. All of them permit evolution, simply because they must fail.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Hi Frank,
Don’t know if this will help your work or not but I remember seeing on maxkeiser.com a while back that the big banks were preferred managers with slight brain damage because it reduced their propensity to question the risks involved with the financial arbitrage they were undertaking.
February 27th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Ha! Fortunately modelling a bank manager will be rather more complicated than you might suspect. It is a ‘tragedy of the commons’ that we must suffer the creativity of these people in the finance sector because they were denied creativity in the bedroom. Now if you can explain to me how I can put that into software: CDS == Sheila/X??
February 27th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Hi Steve
Chris Joye has written a detailed article that has been pulished on the Business Spectator site. He sets out why he believes the U.S. housing market has hit its current problems and offers his suggestions as to a cure. If you have the time to look at it and respond I would be very interested in your thoughts.
February 27th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Hi Steve
Chris Joye has written a detailed article that has been published on the Business Spectator site. He sets out why he believes the U.S. housing market has hit its current problems and offers his suggestions as to a cure. If you have the time to look at it and respond I would be very interested in your thoughts.
February 27th, 2009 at 9:38 am
Read “The Dollar Crisis: Causes, Consequences and Cures”. That book predicted the housing crisis as far back as 2002, and explains *precisely* why it happened.
February 27th, 2009 at 9:40 am
The Dahlem Report has some platitudes (rethink fundamentally how financial systems are regulated) and mumbo-jumbo (heterogeneity of decision rules).
Code words such as ‘inherent dynamics of economic systems and the instability that accompanies its complex dynamics…” do not impress.
Plus the peculiar – “… an economist would find it much more tractable to study adultery as a dynamic optimization problem of a representative husband, and derive the optimal time path of marital infidelity (and publish his exercise) rather than investigating financial flows in the banking sector within a network theory framework…”. Huh?
Plus acres of what is mere self-opinion. – “We believe that economics has been trapped in a sub-optimal equilibrium in which much of its research efforts are not directed towards the most prevalent needs of society. Paradoxically self-reinforcing feedback effects within the profession may have led to the dominance of a paradigm that has no solid methodological basis and whose empirical performance is, to say the least, modest. Defining away the most prevalent economic problems of modern economies and failing to communicate the limitations and assumptions of its popular models, the economics profession bears some responsibility for the current crisis. It has failed in its duty to society to provide as much insight as possible into the workings of the economy and in providing warnings about the tools it created. It has also been reluctant to emphasize the limitations of its analysis. We believe that the failure to even envisage the current problems of the worldwide financial system and the inability of standard macro and finance models to provide any insight into ongoing events make a strong case for a major reorientation in these areas and a reconsideration of their basic premises.”
If economics needs its basic premises reconsidered, then you must start with Smith and Ricardo, or if the dispute is not with these root premises, with Jevons and Marshall.
But I recommend starting with Marx. He supported most of the Smith and Ricardo premises and merely pointed to some contradictions and crisis tendencies within (specifically) capitalism and injustice within other exploitative forms of economics (feudalism).
Critics like Dahlem only make matters worse.
February 27th, 2009 at 10:05 am
I didn’t find anything new or surprising in the Dahlem report. Still, it’s good to see insider academic economics professionals issue such a stinging rebuke, and that ought to be encouraged. However, I think the GFC itself will play the largest role in discrediting lines of theory and research, however much their practitioners will resist for both ideological and professional “reasons”,- (though I’m often amazed at the slippery sophistries that are invoked to rationalize economic theories at all costs). But still more resistant to facing up to the need for deep adjustments and reforms is the prevailing ideological consensus outside of academia, as with the refusal to acknowledge the need for nationalizing the giant banks,- call it by any other rose-sweet name you’d like-, here in the U.S., as if private capital markets would be willing to do the trick, while, in the meantime, private investors are bailed out scot-free at public/taxpayers’ expense. And even where it is discussed, the notion that such banks could be rapidly unwound and re-privatized into a global recessionary economy is taken as gospel, without any consideration of the need to rethink the whole regulatory framework, the securitization model, the breaking-up of too-big-to-fail entities and the need for better assessments and measures of systemic risks, and, quite frankly, the need to down-size and shrink the hyper-trophied financial sector as a whole, which, at its current size, has long since ceased to perform any real productive function in intermediating the real productive economy, but rather has been wasting productive efforts on empty leveraged speculations that have ruinously drawn rents off of the real economy and effectively looted the household sector. I’ve been advocating for a year now in blog comments the need to prepare for at least a partial nationalization of the banking system, though no doubt I wasn’t the the first subaltern blog commenter to do so. But it wasn’t until mid-summer that the first prescient main bloggers, such as Yves Smith, began to moot the possibility.
February 27th, 2009 at 10:19 am
“… an economist would find it much more tractable to study adultery as a dynamic optimization problem of a representative husband, and derive the optimal time path of marital infidelity (and publish his exercise) rather than investigating financial flows in the banking sector within a network theory framework…”.
Cf. Gary Becker.
February 27th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Nationalization of US banks is not going to happen, as far as Bernanke is concerned. Yet.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601069&sid=a4qVJ6vmPZ3I&refer=fedwatch
One wonders why, and I don’t think ideology has anything to do with it. Ben knows exactly how much more toxicity lies in US bank vaults and I’m sure he knows also the potential for a sovereign US default should nationalization be undertaken.
Which is why price discovery (mark to market- where no market exists!) of those impaired (vaporized more like ) assets is being so resoundingly suspended. No, the option will be to drip feed the zombie US banks on taxpayer treasure for a decade or so in order to keep the dog and pony show rolling. Which to me gives “equilibrium” a whole new meaning. As the landscape in this slo-mo train wreck continues to change with each new increasingly worse revelation, it will require more and more taxpayer contributions to maintain “equilibrium”.
I’m betting that this will also be the case in Australia. So does Mike Smith at the ANZ;
“”The Property Bank (RUDDbank) is trying to create a degree of safety in the commercial property market because if there are huge amounts of forced selling, it would cause a large reduction in values.(GSM- and this means TAXPAYERS must front up capital as support??) I think the measure of success for the Property Bank is that nothing gets drawn down. It should be possible for the existing banking system to pick up the pieces”, he says. ”
The Australian taxpayer pocket , like it or not, will be front and centre in propping up Commercial Property prices (and thereby the BANKS) for the likes of the Lowy family, Centro,Lend lease etc.
At what point, I wonder, will people wake up and realize that they and their children have been impoverished by the outright idiocy of their own elected representatives in efforts to enrich the financial elite; all in the name of financial “equilibrium”.
February 27th, 2009 at 11:30 am
The link for Smith’s comments above- sorry;
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Removing-the-global-banking-cancer-$pd20090226-PMB3D?OpenDocument&src=sph
February 27th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Interestingly, I had a conversation with a residential property valuer today, on the Gold Coast. Took the opportunity for a chat. Some takeaway comments;
- turnover has crashed.With so few transfers, making “like for like” valuations is becoming very difficult.
- don’t believe the sticker price. Sellers in the 500k+ range have been accepting offers MUCH below that figure. How much? As much as 100k below in a “few” cases.
- apartment values have totalled- a feature of the current supply/demand dynamic.
- vendor prices are still way too optimistic.It will take some time for the market to adjust.
- sees no arresting for the decline in values this year.
All in all his outlook was pretty grim.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Not sure if this is the right place to post this:
“World renowned Scottish historian Niall Ferguson joins Lateline to discuss the unpredictable patterns of financial markets throughout history and the lessons that can be learnt from the past.” (video & transcript available) http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/
Quite a long interview, very interesting not a lot new for readers here though. Brings a useful simpilified historical perspective to the GFC. Not a lot of optimism.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Has anyonme noticed the subtle change in the media reporting of the ‘train wreck’ in financial markets? or is it just me?Last year it was reported as “the credit crunch”, i.e. something like a ‘pulled muscle’ in the human body!, quite nebulous and distant from “us” (oz).
This year it is the ‘GLOBAL financial crisis’, slowly admitting that there is something about other people’s problems (still not ours though!), just ‘the world’s’!! wow they(the media) are good! I think!I wonder when it will be reported as”OUR ECONOMIC CRISIS’?
February 27th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
GSM, thanks for sharing. We live on the Gold Coast and keep thinking we should really sell our house as long as there are still fools areound that are willing to buy.
However it is an acreage and we have a veggie garden, fruit trees and chooks and we do have to live somewhere. It will be (or already is) painful to see our equity (the real savings we’ve invested) vanish. As long as we’re able to hold on to it through the rough patch I’m happy though.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Yep jc1,
For some one I have dismissed as a property spruiker Chris Joyce has written a very good article.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Joye-$pd20090226-PM69X?OpenDocument&src=sph
February 27th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
euberbaer,
I’m sorry for being the bearer of that information. Good luck with your plans.
February 27th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Hi All,
Just had a thought that I want to get down before I go away for the weekend.
Regarding the banking system and bailouts.
I am running a theory that the first country to put its major banks into bankruptcy will end up being the best off. At present the world is pumping massive amounts of money into banks to prop them up (borrowed money, further de-stabilising the system). I believe (like a few others) that this process will fail later this year. Back to the theory.
The western banks have borrowed from their citizens (deposits and bonds) and from foreigners (mostly bonds). I believe the first government to bankrupt its banks will want to protect the depositors first (for political and economic reasons). But the shareholders and bondholders will get wiped out. The theory goes that the bondholders wiping out will cause corporate and banking failures to other banks in other countries.
If those other countries, continue trying to prop up their banks using tax payer money. The chain reaction may stop for a time.
Back to the country that jumps first. Their depositors will be largely preserved. The shareholders were most likely already wiped out. (share prices would have been very low before the bankruptcy took place) and the bondholders (who are mostly foreign) will take the biggest hit. Therefore the biggest hit will be felt in other countries.
When the majority of countries decide to give up, because the losses around the world will have already been felt by previous failures. The pain will magnify for those that bankrupt their banks later. As bailing out the depositors will become harder and harder. Recovery on assets will fall each time another bank around the world tries to sell assets to a smaller and smaller pool of buyers.
The problem for Australia in this scenario is that everyone keeps saying how healthy our banks are. The odds are that in this case we will be the last country on earth to wake up to the fact that our banks are bankrupt too. (they have lent much more money than people will be able to pay back, because of the depression).
Once again, there are two conclusions to reach.
1. Get out of debt as fast as you can.
2. Find a way to move your money (if you have any left) out of the banking system.
February 27th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Hi BTB
Thanks for your thoughts. I left you a question in a previous thread that you may not have seen.
Do you think the Australian banks [if they get desperate enough] might ask for residential property owners to pay back a large chunk [or all] of their mortgage in one hit as a way of improving there balance sheet? I think that I remember Michael West musing on this possibilty last year…
February 27th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
“a theory that the first country to put its major banks into bankruptcy will end up being the best off”
Just keep track of how Iceland fares and you’ll be able to test this!
February 27th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
GSM, let’s not forget the bailout is not limited to commercial realestate – the rolling bailout out of the residential property bubble continues apace. Note the following blog comment
http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/publicproperty/index.php/couriermail/comments/buyers_wanted/#commentsmore
Not sure where the comments attributed to Ron Silberberg of HIA came from, but nobody should be surprised by this…. (but it is just laying the political backdrop for what is already planned.)
I addressed this very issue in two letters to all Senators before the vote on the second stimulus package.
See blog section of my website for my open letters, hansard record of the Greens raising the issue in debate, and some other related correspondence.
http://www.geocities.com/homes4aussies/blog/index.html
February 27th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Thanks homesforaussies.
Yes indeed, we now live in a bailout society. The KRudd Govt is determined to backstop almost any failed investment decision with OUR money. Like lemmings , the Aussie populace is delivered to the precipice.
February 27th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
This is politics at its very lowest in my view. The PM seems to have adopted a stategy of being seen to be concerned about homelessness – and throwing a few biscuits to help a few lucky people – but enacting policies which have the intention of propping up the housing bubble which has been perhaps the greatest cause of homelessness over the last decade. That is based on the many comments I’ve heard and read from workers on the frontline pointing their fingers directly at skyrocketing rents.
That criticism is not saved for just the Government and the Liberals. I have to say that, while appreciative that the Greens raised the issue in debate, I am a little disappointed that they did not do a better job of negotiating on this aspect – it seems they caved fairly quickly for some bike paths.
So the public and social housing component of the stimulus package, contrary to the spin, is not aimed entirely at increasing the supply of housing or creating employment in construction.
Just what percentage of houses are actually constructed as a consequence of their policies will probably never be known.
One wonders what the standard of these already constructed houses is – clearly they were not planned or constructed with the view to them becoming public or social housing.
Now, just imagine what an impact would be had on homelessness if market forces were allowed to operate, and developers were forced to mark down the value of their (according to the HIA) significant assets and off load their houses at significant discount to earlier (bubble) prices. And the Government stepped in and contracted them to construct additional public and social housing – at the then going commercial rate.
This would create the maximum employment opportunities in the sector, and whilst the businesses may take a haircut on its inventory overhang, at least the public purse is providing working capital to move forward and remain viable employers.
But, clearly, that’s not good enough for the HIA and its members, nor the government with a view to getting lots of middle class house gambler votes at the next election, so the Aussie taxpayer gets put in a deeper hole, and the majority of marginalised Aussies need to continue to suffer (there’s that RBA word again!).
February 27th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Frank,
Nicely said. The question is, IS ECONOMICS A SCIENCE? In my view it is not, but the scientific approach is useful in the understanding of economics. The reason it is not a science is because experiments are not really repeatable. But experiments can be useful at least in the following way.
Set up your hypothesis (forecast) based on a theory (your current understanding of the markets). If your hypothesis is accurate then that affirms that your current understanding is correct. If you hypothesis is incorrect it indicates that either your theory is incorrect or that something in the system has changed.
The usefulness of this approach isn’t the affirmation or rejection of your theory, it is in identifying what has changed, because the system is changing continuously.
I agree with that a general model can be achieved and this is where academics come in. But a general model will never have any predictive power, nor should that be it’s aim.
Paul Wilmott has an interesting perspective
http://www.wilmott.com/blogs/paul/index.cfm/2009/1/8/Financial-Modelers-Manifesto
February 27th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
TruthIsThereIsNoTruth
I agree that economics is not a science at the moment.
The problem with economics is that is bound to as prescriptive as it is descriptive. Soros describes this as reflexivity. When leaders use models they are to some extent describing the situation in an attempt to predict, but in so doing are affecting the situation. The uncertainty principle on a grand scale.
Oddly I see philosophical similarities between quantum mechanics and economics. Both must recognise that they are constrained by affecting the situation they attempt to observe and both must rely on probabilistic and statistical techniques.
Perhaps that is one thing that has limited economics’ evolution into a proper science: the economists have found that simply by using models based on ideas belonging to the leaders’ ideas of the system, they have found the models to work. Not because they effectively describe, but their use by the leadership has effectively [i]prescribed[/i].
February 27th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
TruthIsThereIsNoTruth
I wonder is SecondLife is an economics research exercise?
February 27th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
I’ve also read Soros and enjoy the fact that one of the most successful investors is also a critic of the system which he beat. I wish I was that good at putting my money where my mouth is.
Very interesting comment on the quantum mechanics similarity, though I think it’s important to emphasise that it is at a philosophical level. All things seem to follow a central distribution, normal distribution is bashed around and no longer interesting. I have heard that fractal distribution power law or whatever it’s currently a hot topic. From what I know it’s interesting because many things follow fractal distributions but the intuition exactly why is not yet apparent.
I disagree that the leaders have effectively prescribed, although many leaders have personally benefited from their leadership. The replacement of George with Obama is surely a sign of evolution?
I lasted in SecondLife all but 5 minutes before it bored me, so I can’t comment.
February 27th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
“I disagree that the leaders have effectively prescribed” – by this I mean that the actual use of a particular model or system of interpretation has created self-fulfilling prophecies. The use of the model has as much an impact on the society as it does describe it.
An over simplified example: If the leader says “Gold is valuable” (rightly or wrongly), people will buy it.
I do not mean that leaders make effective prescriptions in the sense that they are without exception quality leaders, I mean that they are subject to the same limitations that quantum physicists have when trying to describe a quark.
February 27th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Correction:
An over simplified example: If the leader says “Gold is valuable” (rightly or wrongly), people will buy it – thus making it valuable.
February 27th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Self-fulfilling prophecy – an important phenomen, must make the general theory. Intuitively it may provide some insight in the apparent power law distribution, hmm…
February 27th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
I don’t think I follow you on the power law thing. Can/will you elaborate?
February 27th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
hi titint,
i think the point is that equilibrium analysis is of little or no use in trying to explain the non linear economic system we live in, choc a block full of major discontinuities, and externalities which cant just be assumed away, given the evidence of the wreckege we seem to trampling over on a daily basis.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
hi jc1,
michael west can muse all he likes, it wont happen, no political party is going to let the banks get away with that. you will have blood on the streets if that ever happened.
by the way did anybody see the lateline interview with economic historian nail ferguson, would be good to get some thoughts from all concerned.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Yes Mr Soros says that the idea of ‘reflexivity’ or I suppose self fulfilling prophecies are key to his success. He says that markets are not rational and he gave an example: If rational agents were confident in an earnings ability of a certain company then they would by shares at a certain price depending on that, but then comes along an irrational speculator who buys a lot of shares in this company driving up the price on the insane belief in miraculous earnings potential. Then the company with the added share capital invests in something and somehow (perhaps through luck) does indeed generate the revenue assumed by the insane speculator. The market seems to have found the right price, and the market seems to have worked.
For the above reason though in most cases it does appear as though the market has worked, that it has found the right price, whether the agent was rational or not.
The model used by the speculator (rational or irrational, accurate or inaccurate) affected that which the model was supposed to describe.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Frank,
I don’t really follow either, but as far as I know fractal distribution is one which looks the same regardless of the magnification or perspective. Things that are fractal follow a power law distribution which is a slim version of the normal distribution with long tails.
Stock returns show some evidence of following a power law distribution, that is have more extreme movements(at the tail) than a normal distribution would predict. Potentially, self fulfilling prophecy may give some insight into explaining this in that the markets go up because people see them going up and become optimistic and vica versa, explaining why returns go beyond the random walk probabilities.
It’s just a thought. I have recently sat in an interest lecture on fractal distribution and you’re reminder of the self fulfilling prophecy made me put 1 and 1 together.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Another way of putting it is that the world of money is in our own minds. When we adopt a particular view, we are therefore changing the actuality.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
TruthIsThereIsNoTruth
Ah I see. I think I get the gist. I guess I would have to dig around and learn about stock movements and power law distributions. I don’t know the relationship there.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
mahaish,
My point was that I think the original idea on equilibrium is that it is a mechanism for price discovery. That is it brings together a buyer and a seller at a certain price and a transaction happens. This is most apparent just before markets open, when there is lots of bids and offers overlapping eachother, then the market opens and an equlibrium price is found, the next second another equilibrium price is found and so on.
From what I remember from Steve’s lectures, although I focused on his model rather then the critisms, the idea of equilibrium has been aggregated and extrapolated into general equilibrium theories, which yes are totally inappropriate for describing the economy.