As regular readers of this blog know, I argue that the dominant school of thought in economics, “Neoclassical economics”, is not only incapable of explaining this crisis, but actually helped contribute to it by its deluded analyses of finance and money.
I wrote Debunking Economics eight years ago to explain why Neoclassical economics was inherently flawed and should be abandoned. In that book I was merely collating the many compelling critiques that have been developed by economists of this theory over the years, that this school of thought has blithely ignored (I unexpectedly added one of my own, critiquing the theory of the firm, and also discussed flaws in conventional Marxian economics, but that’s by the bye here).
Even so, I never expected that the real world would throw up as dramatic a proof of the damage that a poor theory can do to reality as this financial crisis (the GFC, to give it its current popular moniker). That leading economists had no inkling of this crisis before it struck, and the panicked confusion amongst neoclassically-trained policy makers once it took hold, were good signs to the public that the alleged economic experts didn’t understand the economy. Anatole Kaletsky has recently “got” that, and others doubtless will as the crisis rolls on.
But that hasn’t stopped neoclassical economists from touting how great their theory is, nor from making pronouncements that indicate they still really don’t get it.
One such contribution from a leading neoclassical theorist was brought to my attention via a link to this blog: Brad DeLong’s attack on a Marxist’s analysis of the crisis. In a post entitled Department of “Huh?”: In Praise of Neoclassical Economics, DeLong mounts an abusive attack on David Harvey’s post Why the U.S. Stimulus Package is Bound To Fail.
Harvey’s own post was hardly complimentary about neoclassical economics–and I’m not going into the merits of his critique here either–but I didn’t notice Harvey referring to the work of any neoclassical as “pointless intellectual masturbation”, as DeLong obliquely called Harvey’s post.
The intriguing aspect of DeLong’s post was the appeal he made to what is known as the IS-LM model of macroeconomics in his attempt to refute Harvey’s critique. DeLong states:
“And it is at this point that we draw on neoclassical economics to save us–specifically, John Hicks (1937), “Mr. Keynes and the Classics,” the fons et origo of the neoclassical synthesis…”
This is ironic to anyone who has read Hicks in detail (as I have), because about thirty years ago, Hicks rejected the IS-LM model as a totally inappropriate tool for analysing a capitalist economy. Writing in the non-orthodox Journal of Post Keynesian Economics, Hicks stated that:
“The IS-LM diagram, which is widely, though not universally, accepted as a convenient synopsis of Keynesian theory, is a thing for which I cannot deny that I have some responsibility.” (Hicks, J.R., 1980. “IS-LM: an explanation”, Journal of Post Keynesian Economics, Vol. 3, pp. 139-54)
He then went on to make a number of points against the model he built, which included that it was inappropriate unless we lived in a world in which the future was certain, because to derive the model he assumed that expectations of the future remained constant and were correct. He then derived what he called the LL curve (and which later neoclassicals relabelled the LM curve), in which the demand for money was a function of both the need to pay for transactions and … uncertainty about the future. As Hicks put it,
“for the purpose of generating an LM curve, which is to represent liquidity preference, it will not do without amendment. For there is no sense in liquidity, unless expectations are uncertain.”
The model also presumed that all markets were in equilibrium–something that an older and wiser Hicks realised was utterly inappropriate when applied to the real world. His final statement on this was damning:
“I accordingly conclude that the only way in which IS-LM analysis usefully survives–as anything more than a classroom gadget, to be superseded, later on, by something better–is in application to a particular kind of causal analysis, where the use of equilibrium methods, even a drastic use of equilibrium methods, is not inappropriate…
When one turns to questions of policy, looking towards the future instead of the past, the use of equilibrium methods is still more suspect. For one cannot prescribe policy without considering at least the possibility that policy may be changed. There can be no change of policy if everything is to go on as expected–if the economy is to remain in what (however approximately) may be regarded as its existing equilibrium.”
A point I made repeatedly in Debunking Economics–because I had no choice but to–was that when faced with compelling critiques of their theory, neoclassical economists responded by ignoring them. Often, this would follow the pattern of someone who, in his youth, had played a key role in formulating neoclassical dogma, but in later life recanted to some degree–and Hicks here is a perfect example. The “Young Turks” of the discipline would stick with the original idea, and–if they were even aware of the later recantation at all–would dismiss it as the ravings of a senile old man.
Brad DeLong gives me yet another instance of that.
All this wouldn’t matter if DeLong had no influence–just as neoclassical economics wouldn’t really matter if all it did was befuddle students’ brains. But DeLong has influence, as his profile indicates:
“Brad DeLong is a professor in the Department of Economics at U.C. Berkeley; chair of the Berkeley International and Area Studies Political Economy major; a research associate at the National Bureau of Economic Research; and a visiting scholar at the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco. From 1993 to 1995 he worked for the U.S. Treasury as a deputy assistant secretary for economic policy…”
And neoclassical economics has shaped the institutions of the modern world, the practice of finance markets, and the setting of government policy. While it is still in charge of setting policy, this crisis will go on, and on. Only when policy makers start showing practitioners of this dogma the door (to the retirement home) will a real attack on the causes of the crisis be possible.
On a more trivial note, Australia’s market economists are demonstrating their continuing ignorance of the private debt bubble, and how it caused the crisis, by their advice that banks should reduce mortgage payments when they cut interest rates (for non-Australian readers, variable interest rate home loans dominate here, but when a rate cut occurs, the banks leave it up to borrowers to alter their current $ payments. So a rate cut from, say, 6% to 5% on a $100,000 25 year mortgage results in no change in the payments the borrower is making unless the borrower elects to reduce them. As a result, the term of the mortgage effectively drops when the rate is cut, while the payments on the mortgage remain constant).
Jessica Irvine reports in today’s Sydney Morning Herald that
“MORTGAGE holders are taking advantage of lower interest rates to pay off their loans faster, rather than pocketing the savings upfront. This has prompted some economists to call for automatic reductions to monthly loan repayments to help better stimulate the economy.” (Interest rate cuts going to our loans, not pockets).
Saul Eslake is reported as making the following sensible comment:
“If people are able to keep their mortgage repayments up as interest rates decline, then they’re saving themselves tens of thousands over the life of the loan,” he said. However, “that does magnify the increase in saving that occurs when interest rates fall, that’s true”.
However my Kosciuszko mate Rory Robertson seems to be saying that we would be economically better off if banks changed their practice so that payments were cut when rates were reduced, because this would increase spending (and Nicholas Gruen apparently made a similar observation):
An interest rate strategist at Macquarie Bank, Rory Robertson, said interest rate cuts would “pack more of a punch” if banks had to automatically reduce repayments.
“If the Reserve Bank is cutting by 4 basis points and no one’s taking the option of lower loan repayments, it means that the policy is not particularly effective in putting cash in people’s pockets. I would have thought that was the point of the exercise. Just as you squeeze budget constraints by rate hikes, you remove budget constraints by rate cuts. If the money’s burning a hole in pockets, you have got a better chance of it being spent.”
Nicholas Gruen, the chief executive of mortgage broker Peach Home Loans and the economic consultancy Lateral Economics, said that while in the longer term it was better if people paid down debts, in the short term it was better if they spent the money.
“It’s pretty unfortunate that some of this is happening from inertia, not because anybody particularly wants it to happen,” he said.
Ahem. We got into this crisis by reckless debt-financed spending (on both assets and consumer durables); at its peak, the increase in debt (at A$259 billion in 2007) provided almost 20% of aggregate demand in the economy. Deleveraging from this level of debt is inevitable and painful, but delaying it is hardly an alternative. Just look at Japan–still in Depression 18 years after its debt-financed speculative Bubble Economy burst.






February 18th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
On the topic of high profile economists, I submitted a comment on Paul Krugman’s blog post today regarding his question “how does this all end”. My comment referenced one of your posts and your view on possible outcomes — but unfortunately it was not approved.
I have wondered whether Krugman is aware of you — he seems more willing to adapt his perspective than some (in recent months invoking Irving Fischer, Japan, etc, before most of the mainstream caught on). Given his high visibility (e.g., recent Nobel prize), I can’t help but hope he’ll somehow reach your level of understanding of the GFC.
February 18th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
I hate gold, it is manipulated and its price seems to defy any rational explanation, so I stay away from it. Yet articles like this make me very nervous.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/4682554/Gold-hits-record-against-euro-on-fear-of-Zimbabwean-style-response-to-bank-crisis.html
Steve, have our governments figured out how to create inflation or are we simply seeing a flight to the last bubble?
February 18th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
The latter I think bfg,
Our government’s don’t have a clue yet about how to cause inflation. I expect deflation to be the rule for quite a while–maybe 3 years.
February 18th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Intriguing–you’re the second blogger whose post about me on a high profile blog elsewhere hasn’t been approved. Given the collectively polite behaviour on this blog, I doubt that it’s because you used foul language!
However I do agree that Krugman is much more flexible than most neoclassicals–as is Stiglitz, who has also shown the capacity to revise his views.
February 18th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Hi Steve and other,
You said,
“I expect deflation to be the rule for quite a while–maybe 3 years.”
When you talk about deflation are you also talking about debt deflation? Surely 3 years is not enough an interval for a debt deflation. It probably would take around 20 years for everyone to reduce their debt significantly.
There is also no way house prices will fall dramatically in such a short time frame. Maybe 10 to 20 at most like the 2004 housing recession.
If inflation takes over after 3 years wont we be in another recession immediately?
Do you expect a depression where there are waves of deflation, stagnation, hyperinflation, stagflation?
i am seriously confused by some of the fearful comments regarding the magnitude of this crisis on one hand and other comments on this site. Additionally, while i understand that hyperinflation would help the masses to reduce their debt wont it be counter productive for new breed of home buyers? Where they have to shell out more than what they can afford leading to the same mess? Or will the market be segmented? Some segments will experience deflation and some inflation?
I lived in the US during the dot com bust and I and a heck of my friends went through tough times for 4 years. Surprisingly everyone says it was a 1 or 2 year recession and this seems to be the trend everywhere. So 3 years is nothing scary to me.
February 18th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
hi steve,
re your recent comments on this blog about debt forgiveness. the only way i can see this working is if the g20 set up some seperate financial audit system or authority and passed binding resolutions on all members to set up their own domestic financial audit system and compell the banks to throw open their books.
the g20 would also need to change global accounting standards which would allow banks to forgive loans without having to write them off.
they would also have to temporarilly fix exchange rates and enact some king of exchange control regime until the debt forgiveness process was completed, to prevent de stabilising capital flows and speculators from exploiting the situation.
the other way is if governments around the world just made virtual deposits into all our virtual mortgae and loan accounts. we would need to change accounting rules so the government wouldnt need to declare it or incurre a debt.
but either way, since its virtual money and not real money, knowone needs to know where it came from as tony soprano would say.
you and i will still have the proceeds of our ill gotten gains , namely the title deeds to the house, and the house itself, but our debts will have vanished mysteriously into cyber space. as mr soprano would say , “i dunno nothing about any loans, an no knees being broken”
i think we need a helping hand from organised crime. instead of relying on treasury and the reserve we should be trawling through the jails of this country to find our best and brightest , or hiring mafia or triad bosses as consultants if we are going to get out of this mess.
February 18th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Hi All,
For Melbournites 3CR 855am has the Dissident Economists on at 5.30pm.
http://www.3cr.org.au/economists
podcasts
http://www.3cr.org.au/aggregator/sources/791
February 18th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Hi Joshua,
The deflationary stage of the Great Depression lasted about 3 years; the GD itself went on for another six or so years until WWII distracted us. So I’m far from saying that the process will be over in 3 years. And the fall in house prices in Japan took about a decade–I have never claimed a 40% fall in any shorter time frame than that. This will also certainly be far larger than the Dotcom Bubble, whose bursting was papered over by the Subprime Scam that was afoot at the same time.
February 18th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Yep, something like that anyway.
I’ve just pasted a link to an interesting feature by Nouriel Roubini in the Washington Post on my Gems page:
Sunday, February 15: Matthew Richardson and Nouriel Roubini. Nationalize the Banks! We’re all Swedes Now, Washington Post: “The U.S. banking system is close to being insolvent, and unless we want to become like Japan in the 1990s — or the United States in the 1930s — the only way to save it is to nationalize it. As free-market economists teaching at a business school in the heart of the world’s financial capital, we feel downright blasphemous proposing an all-out government takeover of the banking system. But the U.S. financial system has reached such a dangerous tipping point that little choice remains. And while Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner’s recent plan to save it has many of the right elements, it’s basically too late.”
February 18th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Steve,
I’m glad you had the guts to respond to Delong. I’ll read his post. Delong knows a lot – I’ve read stuff from his extensive blog site. But, I’ve read Hicks and know the passage you quote. That Delong would not cite Hick’s later work is disturbing. I’m so glad you are here for us.
February 18th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Thanks Chuck,
Feel free to bounce this one around the blogosphere too. DeLong and others shouldn’t be able to get away with so loudly misrepresenting neoclassical literature any more. Those days had better be buried, along with the notion that one can model an economy as if it is in equilibrium.
February 18th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
There have been several mention of accounting standards with reference to debt write-offs in comments here. I have just enough smattering of accounting to ask a question regarding debt creation in the first place. How does endogenous credit creation fit into double-entry book-keeping? For a bank a $1,000 deposit is recorded as a liability, as it is owed back to the depositor, with a matching book entry of a $1,000 cash asset. If it lends out $900 of it(minus a fractional reserve) then it has a $100 cash asset remaining and a $900 loan asset (on which it earns its revenue) to now match its $1,000 liabliltiy to the depositor. But, if it instead uses the $1,000 deposit to serve as the fractional reserve for a 1:10 ratio of reserves to loans then it can lend out $9,000 which it has just created out of thin air. Thus it suddenly has an extra $9,000 of assets, but as far as I can see no matching liability to balance its accounts – which appears odd indeed. Is there anyone who can tell me if I am on the right track here and how this is solved?
February 18th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
I expect you will find that many of the blogs will not allow posts including web addresses as one method of preventing spam. I couldn’t see any in Paul Krugman’s comments. Maybe try a post without URL.
February 18th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Hi peoples,
Steve – What do you think will be the consequences of debt moratorium?
February 18th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Hi Steve
I understand that in the biblical account of debt forgiveness there is a warning against refusing to lend to someone because you know the ‘reset’ date is coming up soon and you don’t want them to be able to write off their debt to you. Wouldn’t we face a similar problem on a gigantic scale today if people started speculating by taking out a loan against a house that they don’t intend to repay – betting on the ‘reset’ so they never having to pay it back? Or have I missed something in your reasoning?
February 18th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
A decade!
Steve, are you planning on waiting that long before buying a house again?
Your bet with Rory Robertson is for > 40% falls within 5 years yeah? Although I think you walk only if its < 20%?
February 18th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Steve, since I’ve been studying what you have to say, I’ve been stunned at the state of economic thought and shaken that this is what guides significant policy decisions. I’ve also spent many hours looking at what you and others have to say on endogenous money and have been perplexed that such fundamental ideas of money appear not to be widely shared. It is has been a huge learning curve for me and I am constantly being confused by the many speculations flying around. Many thanks for your great websites.
I’d like to draw your attention to an overnight speech made by the president of the St Louis Federal Reserve Bank, James Bullard (referred to by Alan Kohler’s article today on Business Spectator). A quote:
“Second, we can be fairly certain that rapid expansion of the monetary base will be sufficient to head off any incipient deflationary threat. Rapid base growth has been associated with inflation in a wide variety of times and places in economic history.”
From what I understand of your money models, I think I should be sceptical of this – but I wonder if it is meant to jawbone expectations. From what I read in J K Galbraith’s book on money (“MONEY Whence it came Where it went”, 1975), the history seems to suggest to me that monetary policy is pretty ineffectual in the face of deflation which I think supports what you have been saying.
I’m just left wondering like everyone else how all this plays out from here – especially in Australia where, in general, the public seems alert rather than alarmed.
You say “Our government’s don’t have a clue yet about how to cause inflation.” A big question mark for me, one for which I don’t like my present answer, is what happens if a central bank purchases treasury debt in large amounts and the government goes out and spends the resulting money – the sort of thing one worries will produce uncontrolled inflation unless recaptured via taxes. Can you shed any light on the effects of such a scenario or point me to some readings on this?
February 18th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
In any other area of the economy the idea that there should be a fixed price for something is seen as the actions of a cartel, so when it comes to the “price” of money why is it dictated by anyone other than the “willing buyer and willing Seller”. If you take out a mortgage against your house the rate you pay should be just that, the rate you agree when you do that deal and that should be it. So how is it that the RB decides to change the price of money (by changing the price on a minuscule amount of it) should it affect all the “done deals” out there being the signed up mortgages. A RB deposit (at zero risk) should pay zero interest and it should be available to anyone not just the banks.
February 18th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
hi steve,
i know you arent a big fan of long run business cycle theories, but have you read the “fourth turning” by neil howe. its not economics but it gives an interesting perspective on the current state of affiars.
http://www.fourthturning.com/
also re bank nationalisation-whats you position on our banks. are we facing a similar scenario
February 18th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
hi steve and all,
have you come across matt stiles’s contrarian economic blog http://futronomics.blogspot.com/
your good self and your cavaliers of credit article got a mention the other day.
February 18th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
now if we can only get wayne swan and the mandarines at treasury and the reserve to read it
February 18th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
Why are the banks allowed to charge interest on money they create out of nothing?? Sounds just like naked short selling to me.
Also I now hear the banks are talking about not dropping interest rates even if the reserve does because of the cost of funding. I don’t see how this is a problem if they only realistically have to fund 8% of the loan anyway. If they charge 6% on a $100000 they collect $6000 a year in interest while only needing $8000 to finance the loan in the first place, and the reserve lends at approx 2% less than they charge any way. I don’t see how they can complain about costs at all seeing that they get 92% of their product for nothing.
Also what is the reserve requirements for the non-bank lenders like Aussie, Rams etc??? Do they have the same license to print money the banks do???
February 18th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
With regard to mortgage payments being reduced automatically…there is no real need as just about all loans allow a redraw at little or no cost. People will spend their overpayments if they want to, but many (like me) choose not to. Retire debt as quickly as possible is rule number one – clause 1 of rule one also says enjoy life to the fullest. There’s a balance and it’s just that the lack of balance (ie. binging on credit) has got us into the poop.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:09 pm
Stop already on the “banks create money” line. It’s true, but many of you are misinterpreting what that means. It doesn’t mean they pay interest on a deposit for $8K and and earn interest on a loan issued for $100K.
When we say bank’s create money. We mean that banks issue loans which add to the money supply. The loans create deposits (for the equal amount) which can also be spent as cash in the system. The amount of money in the economy grows when banks issue loans. When banks issue lots of loans rapidly, the amount of deposits that end up in the economy grows rapidly as well. There you have it, banks create money.
When banks lend $100K it means they have a $100K electronic deposit or bond (from the wholesale market) to match it off. Securitisation allowed (past tense) banks to sell a bunch of loans off balance sheet, so they don’t have to keep reserves. Also, the sale of the securitised bonds raises the next bunch of money to cover all the loans that have just been written in the last few weeks.
What endogenous creation of money is referring too is that the demand for loans (inside the system) is what drives the banks to lend which leads to deposits. Not that the banks have lazy deposits (from the government, outside the system), so they decide to go and make some loans.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Ned, the banks don’t actually create money, the banking system does in the process of lending money. The money is then owned by real depositors who want to be paid interest, and in particular want to be able to get their money back at some future time.
As an example say that X buys a house for $300K fully borrowed, with money deposited by Z. Now if he sells it a week later to Y for $400K again fully borrowed then X pays off his loan and deposits $100K and Y has a loan of $400K from X and Z. So in a week we have gone from $300K of deposits and lending to $400K. Of course in reality there are more banks and more people and some other complexities, but it pretty much happens this way.
Where the bank is guilty is they have accepted that the asset has gained in price at a fantastic rate and that is the problem. If Y is forced to sell the house a week later and only gets $300K then the bank can’t cover the deposits.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Dear Ken,
Please read “Roving Cavaliers of Credit”: an individual bank can and does create money each time it lends. Check BTB’s comments a moment ago too.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Ned
They do need to pay interest as the full amount as it rotates back through deposits, but the main problem for them is their foreign debt.
The banks carry the countries foreign debt which stands at about 700,000,000,000 AUD and they need to borrow more foreign funds to cover the current acount defecit.
They have had to do this continually for every quarter since June quarter 1975, for 33 years. The interest rates here are higher than the local cash rate and rising because of the meltdown. The goverment appears to be taking on some of this so we tax payer will pay some of the extra, but the rest will have to come from borrowers with mortgages etc. A part of the recent rescue bill was authorisation for the government to issue treasury bonds ($200billion) so that they can take on this foreign debt.
Mr. Hockey claims we have great “wealth” well, right. But we also have great debt and we now need to pay the piper. The “wealth” has come from the foreign account which was borrowed to pay for cheap imported cargo. The spin is that this country is debt free, this is simply not true. This “wealth” is even imaginary, essentially Ponzi financed, but the debt is real.
February 19th, 2009 at 12:02 am
Maybe a bit abstract and off topic, but for what it’s worth I’ll voice my thoughts. Like Steve suggests, a more systematic approach of modelling dynamic systems is needed than what ‘economics’ offers. I have been working for some time on simulators of my own, and what I have come to realise is that what is actually needed is a good emulator of human decision making. Game theory doesn’t really suffice because it avoids discussions on what ‘utility’ actually means to each individual and why. It avoids intrinsic behavioural traits that are given to us.
It is the problem with ‘utopian’ models such as Soviet socialism and so on – they look at the system as a logically coherent thing, but fail to deal with the implications of human beings being given certain incentives while placed in the roles ascribable by that system.
In this sense every system is corrupt. The systems we invent never properly take into account the actual behaviour a human being would adopt in given roles. They don’t take into account learning and training and the kinds of behaviours that would evolve. There is always a discrepancy between the dogma of ‘ought to’ and the pragma of ‘actually do’.
For this reason my efforts are focussed on machine learning, but with a slant towards human emulation. Once human decision making and learning is emulated with reasonable accuracy, these units can be placed in social structures and observed.
February 19th, 2009 at 12:26 am
The curiosity to find where humanity stands with it’s economical imposition on it’s biological constraints just hasn’t been sated. Searching through the archive of Monbiot’s articles I came across this gem.
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2002/12/31/deliver-us-from-finity/
“The briefest reflection will show that this cannot be true. The laws of thermodynamics impose inherent limits upon biological production. Even the repayment of debt, the pre-requisite of capitalism, is mathematically possible only in the short-term. As Heinrich Haussmann has shown, a single pfennig invested at 5% compounded interest in the year 0 AD would, by 1990, have reaped a volume of gold 134 billion times the weight of the planet. Capitalism seeks a value of production commensurate with the repayment of debt.”
I can have all the feelings I like about this bubble, that we might have pushed ourselves into consuming our future but until it is ‘quantified’ I’m whistling dixie.
This GFC might be a good time to start taking a serious audit of our planet.
And Steve, I’m serious about the consequences of debt moratorium. From what I’ve gathered, we’ll have to do what you prescribe.
No point not looking that way is there?
February 19th, 2009 at 3:19 am
It’s really strange how the market change back and forth. There is a slight wind in Chinese stocks, a slight drive from there, elsewhere it’s all dead and back again to the deflation story. Obama and his finance minister killed any belief in them, through their poor performances lately.
On Sweden, or Norway for that matter, 3 month interest rates peaked out at 20 % in 1992 (and prices was around 50 % off the 1987 level), and house prices was compressed to a level, they have risen around 5,5 times since then. I think the correct level was in around 1997, around twice the 92 level. I think US house prices might be much to high still, for any nationalization to work in turning around the public desire to lend. It seems everything that is done to turn tings around just prolong the thing because it’s not done with appropriate force, while Obama look like a boyscout just happy to be a president, and not really up to the challenge yet. They should go all in, and clean the table, or they can just let things correct itself on it on, what they are doing now are just causing things to go on longer than it otherwise would.
I’m sure gold is a bubble. And I think anything resembling quantitative easing will drive it higher. I think the market’s need an alternative to stocks, bonds and treasury bills. Gold fit that task.
I must say I’m disappointed with Warren Buffet. He goes like: buy American, I am. Then he goes to sell 50 % of his stakes in Proctor Gamble, and Kraft Foods, only to buy fixed income instruments (that he wrote would suffer a terrible decline in his article). I’m sure many bought stocks because they trusted his judgment, that obviously was wrong.
February 19th, 2009 at 6:36 am
To follow up… It does appear that Krugman’s blog simply must not accept comments with hyperlinks, despite no mention of this restriction in the comments policy nor any technical limitation (my not-yet-approved-but-visible-to-me comment had a working link). I had a comment mentioning Steve Keen approved on a subsequent post by Krugman. (Hopefully I did not misrepresent Keen — I just want to see him more widely cited!)
February 19th, 2009 at 7:19 am
I had some clarity on the “buy gold as a hedge” idea yesterday.
Gold is way over priced. Oil has crashed in price. Oil would be a much much better hedge against Hyperinflation (I think we are going to have deflation by the way). The gold bugs are paranoid that every economy will end up like Zimbabwe. At least with oil you would be buying lower than gold. Gold lovers are getting sucked into buying high and selling low. Classic investor trap.
I think within a month gold will fall like oil did last year. I ready to call at least a 30% fall in gold. The gold bugs will be puzzled. The bubble is about to burst. The bullishness towards gold is everywhere. A sign that the bull run is very mature.
February 19th, 2009 at 7:32 am
Steve, that was the “other complexities”. It doesn’t change my main point which is that the bank doesn’t see itself creating money. If it obtains money from the reserve bank it is still nicely accounted for, and it lends it out and eventually repays the reserve bank with the new deposits. That the process creates money and more so using the reserve banks money is something that it doesn’t worry about, and shouldn’t. What it should be worried about is that it is accepting rapidly escalating asset values as security.
February 19th, 2009 at 7:52 am
Obama Stimulus Plan
Have a listen to these guys – it is free to subscribe to them.
http://www.mcalvany.com/podcast/?p=63
February 19th, 2009 at 7:58 am
Here on the Gold Coast I’ve noticed pawn shops belting out they’re buying gold with the hasty cardboard sign in the window.
February 19th, 2009 at 8:25 am
Bullturnedbear, I have made a link specially for you. I think you are right to be reserved about gold, but the market can stay irrational for a pretty long time. The gold graph is a little old, so it don’t catch the last bit of gain, but My point is this:
Asian crisis 1998, then, money goes into the nasdaq bubble. Now, 2008, big crisis, this time, it’s gold
Enjoy GOLD: http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn240/carseller_02/gull2.jpg
Nasdaq: http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn240/carseller_02/gull3.jpg<
Where will gold go? Who knows, but based on the nasdaq, the answer is 2700 dollars. The dow then? 5200, dow gold 2:1 ,repeat ? 1932.
February 19th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Just remove some from the last link, and it should work fine. I don’t really believe in this technical analysis stuff.
But look at the facts, when treasuries gained, everything sold off, everything, but gold, gold head steady,(you had the same in 98, but then it was the nasdaq that held steady) it’s even making gains in most currencies, the Bank of England are starting quantitative easing (just look at what happened from 2001 march when japan started), So I think based on commercials I have seen that gold is in a bubble, but it’s a important metal, and it might cause the federal reserve to raise interest rates even as the economy is declining, who knows, like when the dotcom bubble went in 2000.
Another big thing. A speculator in Norway, he was making out extremely well when the nasdaq was hot, he have not as far as I can tell been into IT since after then, but instead hold big stakes in this company: http://www.wegamining.no
Morgan Stanley have been buying a lot of shares lately, it’s really not that common for rare norwegian shares. I think a bubble is brewing, big time, however, since the dollar is weak, and the treasury market might be some kind of bubble, who really know what’s really the truth. I suspect that the fed at some point if gold really explode will have to raise interest rates as gold is really an enemy of paper currencies, but maybe, maybe, they can’t break gold.
February 19th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Gold is outperforming the US dollar. That is a very telling when the USD has performed so well against mots other major currencies. Gold has alos rallied in the face of declining crude, no inflationary pressures there.
Against the AUD gold has been stellar. Nobody of course knows if any of this will continue- however I dont see the present economic conditions improving anytime soon in fact I see them becoming decidedly worse. The AUD will not be rallying anytime soon against the USD.Things will get much worse, as we begin seeing a worldwide deterioration in confidence in the banking system, I see more and more wealth being stored in gold.I don’t (yet) see it being used as a medium of exchange here but it will grow a preferred storage of value in the cashed up developing countries now struggling to cope with this GFC (China, Russia, Asia, LatAm etc). Conversely, annual gold production in serious decline. Any collapse in the gold price should be considered a buying opportunity.
February 19th, 2009 at 10:06 am
If fiat currency works based on trust and this trust is slowly (or rather quickly) eroding then where do people (with cash) turn? Well at the moment the answer for many is GOLD or anything else that promises to keep its value.(Ferrari is doing very well atm).
Is it fair to say the price of gold reflects the trust in fiat currency?
I am not arguing that it’s not possible that during a deflation scenario gold goes down in value(vs what? the dollar? or food/energy?) but I think Gold will always be worthwhile having, as long as it’s not sold during a deflation period.
BTW – Inflation/Deflation – I think that it’s not so much which one it is, but that it will be a mix. I expect essentials (food, energy) to inflate and non essentials (homes, cars, boats, paper assets etc) to deflate.
Gold in a fear bubble? I think so and rightly so. That does not mean the fear will abate soon and the gold will tank. I think fear will get worse for a while to come. The news are certainly getting much scarier every day.
I bought Gold 4 months ago while the A$ was at its peak so a bad time however despite that this gold is now worth more by 28% thanks to the tanking A$ and rising Gold price. Name another investment that has done as well during the last 4 months.
February 19th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Looks like England is on its way to staring a print fest.
BoE seeks more authority to create money
The Bank of England revealed Wednesday that it has sought approval from the government to create new money in a bid to kick start the economy as historically low interest rates leave the bank with limited scope for further rate cuts.
The minutes of the bank’s monetary policy committee meeting in early February show a unanimous vote in favour of increasing the money supply, or so-called quantitative easing, amid fears that further rate cuts could hurt the profitability of banks.
If approved by the government, likely a formality, the bank could effectively turn on the printing press and start buying government bonds or other securities with the new cash within days.
http://au.biz.yahoo.com/090218/2/24pbz.html
February 19th, 2009 at 10:28 am
In my opinion golds strength is connected to monetary easing in China.
For reasons that are not well understood, China holds a so good grip on the treasury market, that when China prints currency, it’s as if the US print it themselves.
February 19th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Hi Prudent
The reasons are very will understood; they are, the huge US debt held by the Chinese, and the continuing huge US current account deficit. This has been the result of blind faith in neoclassical economics.
The OZ situation is even worse because the AUD is not the world reserve currency.
February 19th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Hi Uberbear,
Good on you for making some money on gold. My comment to that is boring but true. Unless you sell, what you have made remains on paper. I know, you think it will go higher and you will make more money. The daily sentiment index (DSI) for gold is at 94% bulls. So you are in good company. Nearly everyone thinks gold will go higher.
Interestingly, The DSI reached 95% and 94% respectively when gold topped out in March and July last year. This is not an exact science but there is some logic to looking at DSI. The logic goes this way. When everyone is bullish, they have already bought. So where will the buyers come from to drive the rally higher? When some selling pressure comes and it will (it always does) there will be no buyers to hold up the price. Then all the longs will dump gold to either cut their losses or their stops will get hit, thus increasing the selling pressure. Now in saying this, a bull reading of 94% or 95% could extend for a few more months (it has before). But I would say the risks of a fall are quite high at the moment.
I have been trading for over 15 years. The number of times I have held on for more and ended with a loss are numerous.
You are probably a seasoned trader. If so, please ignore what I am about to say. If not, please listen.
This gold price rise is very mature. Price will most likely fall very hard. I expect price to fall straight past the $680 low that was set in November. Before it falls though, this rally may extend further.
To make money trading. The best lesson you can learn is to sell into the bullish hype and buy into the panic. Not buy into the hype and sell into the panic. At the moment, gold is all hype.
By the way. I am planning to take a short position in gold and silver (I think silver will fall up to 70%. Silver is an industrial metal and industry is broke) in the next month. The trigger I am looking for is a new bear market turn in stocks. When a new bottom is in for stocks (with confirming bounce) I think the speculative money will flow out of metals back into the stock market. This will lead to very heavy selling pressure that will feed on itself.
Anyway, being so counter market is hard and also putting my views out there like this is dangerous. I risk looking like a fool when 95% of people look smart. If I joined the herd and I was wrong I could always fall back on “Nobody saw that coming” and be forgiven.
By the way, none of what I have said is investment advice. I am not a licensed investment adviser. It’s all just my opinion.
February 19th, 2009 at 11:44 am
I doubt silver can fall 70 %, that would be around all time low levels, even the money in the world have doubled/tripled since last time silver was at an all time low. I rather think silver is likely to go much higher.
February 19th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
There is widespread knowledge of many technical indicators such as DSI and others.Whilst no one can know what indicator really applies to price at any given time, I would venture that a breakout by gold to new highs above March 2008 levels would be a reasonably strong signal that Gold prices are heading higher- a proof of popular sentiment. No doubt it would catch media attention as well.
Far from being a bubble, gold is still well scorned as an investment. Given also the very heavy preponderance of invested money either in Govt bonds and cash instruments, I’m pretty comfortable that portions of that load will find their way into precious metal type investments.
If one looks out at the turmoil clearly brewing in Europe, Asia and the US, I dont believe it is too far fetched to continue to see major financial collapse (and with it basic services and social unrest). Increasingly people, like me (us?), will want to see their accumulated wealth in a store of value that can hold and appreciate in these most uncertain of times. It really is that simple.
February 19th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Hi Prudent,
Thanks for your valued response..
I am not a seasoned trader by ANY means. But I am unsure if we can follow traditional indicators like the DSI the same in the current situation compared to what happened a year ago. The current situation in probably unprecedented with the interconnected global economy and the lightning fast communication of today.
February 19th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Gold hasn’t reached a mania stage….it will be interesting to see how long it takes to get to over $2000US – which should about equal its inflation adjusted high of 1980.
There will no doubt be a lot of profit taking at stages and big dips….
There is also about 6 times as much currency in the system now since then so it may well go alot higher….
February 19th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Hi all gold bugs,
I can see that I am greatly outnumbered on this one. I’ll try to keep my views on gold to myself. My view will only add to the confusion at this point. Like all of this stuff, time will tell.
By the way. I meant to say I expected silver to fall 50%. 70% was a typo. Although, 70% is possible. As 2008 showed us. Anything is possible.
February 19th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
BTB – I have been reading your posts for quite some time along with other postings on this site and I must take the time to thank you for providing your opinion on what is happening out there. – It is really helpful for me as I am not an experienced trader
“Anyway, being so counter market is hard and also putting my views out there like this is dangerous. I risk looking like a fool when 95% of people look smart.”
Don’t ever think your views are wasted, as information is power and you are giving information to others who don’t have your experience. It is for us to sift through the thoughts and decide our own path forward.
How does that song go – “you may be right I may be crazy but I just might be the lunatic your searching for”. At the moment all opinions are welcome and being proved right or wrong is irrelevant.
February 19th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Hi All,
DeLong’s arrogance is to be expected. The worst is his entire dismissal of the others point of view. This only leads to one conclusion; Delong’s belief in neoclassical economics is religious, and it is a structure of power, not an economic theory about the real world. Delong’s response is grounded in fear. Someone is proposing another religion ( Delong’s view of it) and he is not one of its high priests. And like the Pope, Delong is infallible. These guys are never wrong!
The worst, and what I believe is happening, is neoclassical/neoliberalism has caused a political crisis greater than the current financial crisis. Our politicians cannot respond outside the worldview of neoliberalism. They are circumnavigating the global economic crisis with a map that says the world is flat and all you need is latitude. The map of course has been printed in Rome (neoliberalism) and everyone is frightened to say it may be wrong, except the heretics, of course.