I’m off to work with the CSIRO for a few days on modelling, and I may not be able to keep up with blog comments as well as I’d like to.
I’ve also had a correspondent who is prevented from posting to the blog by a too-strict Internet censoring policy in the country he’s currently in. I suggested that perhaps someone on the blog would be willing to “shadow” for him: i.e., sign on to the blog with an additional alias, and copy any emails from him as posts to the site.
If anyone is willing, please drop me a line and I’ll introduce you.
In the meantime, one thing he wanted to raise discussion about was Nassim Taleb’s “Black Swans” book, which is summarised in this article from the Sunday Times: June 1, 2008: Nassim Nicholas Taleb: the prophet of boom and doom. A brief (and not all that representative) extract from the article:
[America's] primary problem is that both banks and government are staffed by academic economists running their deluded models. Britain and Europe have better prospects because our economists tend to be more pragmatic, adapting to conditions rather than following models. But still we are dependent on American folly.
The central point is that we have created a world we don’t understand. There’s a place he calls Mediocristan. This was where early humans lived. Most events happened within a narrow range of probabilities – within the bell-curve distribution still taught to statistics students. But we don’t live there any more. We live in Extremistan, where black swans proliferate, winners tend to take all and the rest get nothing – there’s Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and a lot of software writers living in a garage, there’s Domingo and a thousand opera singers working in Starbucks. Our systems are complex but over-efficient. They have no redundancy, so a black swan strikes everybody at once. The banking system is the worst of all.
“Complex systems don’t allow for slack and everybody protects that system. The banking system doesn’t have that slack. In a normal ecology, banks go bankrupt every day. But in a complex system there is a tendency to cluster around powerful units. Every bank becomes the same bank so they can all go bust together.”
As someone trained in complexity theory, I have sympathies for the basic thesis of Black Swans, though since I am also a “Minskian” in my economics, I don’t regard this crisis as an unpredictable event, but all too predictable. What’s “Black Swan” about it is simply how big it is, and that’s partly the complex systems perspective: we are lulled into complacency by the small scale “close to the mean” events that happen all the time, but in a complex system it is the really big events that are so enormous that they shape the system, and in the long run the small events are irrelevant.
This is the opposite of a statistically random process, where the tiny movements about the mean are so many that they overwhelm the incredibly rare big events, which can safely be ignored.
At some point I’ll write a post on this topic as applied to the financial system, and also put some explanations of the technical issues. But in the meantime this book–and its discussion in The Sunday Times–may be worth a discussion.
Cheers, Steve






February 17th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Hi Bfg,
Cash can go in safety deposit boxes. Also short term government bonds are another way to keep money out of the banks.
I have also had a position since June/July that the $US will continue to rise (trend) against the $A. This position is quite risky though. Not only is there currency risk, there is also counterparty risk.
Time will tell. In the future “cash in the mattress” will be too risky if social tensions rise like they have in Europe.
It’s all paper wealth anyway and can be lost in a moment. True wealth for me is measured three ways.
1. An eternal trust in Jesus, the creator and saviour of the universe.
3. Relationships with my family and friends.
2. My human capital. Ie, Skills, experience, knowledge, education and abilities. God given of course.
February 17th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
thanks bfg, and good luck to you! We were not in a hurry and – amazingly – the house we most wanted to come on the market did. Having to wait is not so bad – prices must surely have a long ways to go.
February 17th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
re the OP article reference – I am not so sure systems are efficient. For example, manufactured goods, such as computer and TVs, fail fairly often. Items get lost and so forth. I tend to think we have a dream of the system and that dream says the system is excellent.
More formally, our memory under free recall is of a prototypical system. As errors are in a minority of instances of engagement with the system, those errors ‘fall off the model’ when we are recalling system function under conditions where the system is not failing. But that doesn’t mean the system as it actually exists is efficient. And if the system is failing then we tend to recall instances of previous failure.
That is, current input influences memory retrieval.
Also, of course, efficiency is always with respect to a goal or output. There are many goals or outputs under which our current systems are appalingly inefficient.
re complex systems. Complex systems do not, of necessity, settle to stable states, they may instead continually traverse a very wide range of the possible states. The idea that complex systems do not tolerate ‘slack’ also seems counter-intuitive to me. Complex systems are often desired as they can show ‘graceful degradation’ – that is, if something goes wrong they reorganise to at least get partial function if not a complete return to the previous behaviour.
The fault tolerant aspect of complex systems is one of their attractions.
February 17th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Hello,
I have a question for Bullturnedbear… you said,
“One needs to see how it was done in the 1890s or 1930s to see if you can hang on. Most could not hang on. My guess, is that most will lose all of their perceived wealth. Even the ones that saw this coming will be losers. Myself included.”
Do you have any thoughts on what kind of circumstances people might need to be in – or get into, in order to “hang on”…and further, what kind of circumstances might see people build some financial security in the next ten years?
thanks.
February 17th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
If there is a debt moratoria does that mean people with mortgages won’t have to repay them – or is it just a case of macroeconomics where countries debts are forgiven. Surely if this happens in Australia, those who have amassed enormous debts will be better off than those who have been more prudent with their finances.
February 17th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Hi justthinking,
A debt moratoria would have to apply to mortgage holders this time, since they are the major ones in debt this time round.
Issues of fairness and unfairness pale beside the alternative of an unbreakable economic slump for everyone–and let’s not forget the unfairness of the system that got us into this mess in the first place.
February 17th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Hi Justme,
I am of the opinion that we are going to have a depression. My conclusions must be viewed in that light. I also believe the situation will be much worse than the 1930s for three main reasons:
1. Debt levels are about twice the level they were in the late 1920s and early 1930s.
2. The western world has become very comfortable. The thought of famine and mass unemployment is so far from our current way of life. That is, we are soft.
3. We have a service based economy. Thankfully we have world class farmers and a small population. Despite this, we have virtually no manufacturing sector. I am at a loss to see where the drivers for jobs and recovery will come from.
What to do now, if this is coming to pass?
1. Preserve what cash you have. It will grow in value. Start saving.
2. Think ahead to what jobs will exist in a depression. Health, teaching, government?, cheap food, etc. Look into changing employment if possible.
3. Lower your expectations. It will soften the blow.
I believe it will be very hard to amass wealth in a depression. Most will be concerned with survival.
In saying all this. Predicting the future is almost impossible. There are variables I haven’t thought or heard of. This is just my best guess prediction.
February 17th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Ah the joys of extremely skewed statistical distributions.
In my long experience ‘normal’ (ie Gaussian) distributions are rare in society, business and especially insurance. Example, anything involving a queue will have a form of a Gamma dist.
Ratios can produce Cauchy distributions, one of the ugliest.
Or you can not fit anything at all and have to use, if the data is available, empirical dists.
But if you wait long enough, low probability events happen.
The trouble is when you calculate using a ‘safe and easy’ dist and estimate an extreme event as (say) 1:10,000, in reality if you calculate it properly it may actually be 1:100. (case study: Richard P Feynman’s contribution to the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster).
Underestimating low probability events means all sorts of risks being ignored and bad decisions being made. Resilience and redundancy can be lost in the relentless search for ‘efficiency’.
Then when something ‘incredibly rare’ happens, the ‘black swan’, then chaos happens and whole systems collapse.
Though the GFC is not of that ilk, it was very predictable, not the exact timing or the trigger event, but the eventual event and outcome.
But good old greed, ‘vested interest’, stupidity, cognitive dissonence, group think, et al (including good old corruption and criminality) meant that anyone who argued that it would not be sustainable was a:
“treehugger”, “communist”, “anarchist”, “dropkick”, “un-Australian” … etc, etc.
Never, ever, get between a rich person and more money, enough is never enough, or a sociopath and power. Instead wait around a while until they self destruct .. as they always do.
February 17th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
Justme…mp opinion fwiw…(and my own family do not think much of it!)THESE ARE THOUGHTS NOT ADVICE
The first question you have to ask is how bad? We know? it is going to be bad so how bad????
Maybe in steps (not necessarily in order of importance or time sequence)
1. Have no debt
2. Maximise your savings
3, Spend NOTHING you don’t really NEED to spend. Turn off the damned air conditioner for your own good and that of the planet.
4. Cut up all your Credit Cards. Some people can use them judiciiously, however there is nothing like handing over hard earned cash to limit spending. A dollar saved now might be worth $10
5. Look at your job. Is it in health? If not you MIGHT be at risk. Do you work for the Govt? hang on to your priviledged position for dear life, although govts also can go bankrupt (and in my opinion will…but i am probably called an something of a pessimist by 99.9% of the population) (But then 99.9 % of the population don’t know we have a $700B foreign debt! ) Maybe look for a job in a business that will do well if importing screeches to a halt or/ and the dollar halves from present levels.
6. Look at your values. Mate, I’m so damned old by most people’s viewpoint, and the psychology of being seems to have changed a lot to more material things. Get your pleasure somewhere other than spending on gadgets or whatever. It’s not my original quote, and the quote is not word for word, but “Take pleasure in not buying the crap you don’t need”
Family and friends are what really matter. You can sit round with friends and have a great time and spend nothing!
Network friends with different skills …builders, nurses, agriculturalists etc
7. Maybe hold some physical gold…if you can buy direct from a miner for cash all the better.
8. Keep a good wad of cash handy. The risks are someone will knock it off…get a security box somewhere.
9. If you have any basic gardening or agricultural knowledge buy a small farm with access to water. Then you can always feed your family.
10. Watch just in case Steve and some of us are wrong in here and this lot get inflation going at a higher level and SOONER than we can now imagine. That’s why you are holding some physical Gold. Also don’t discount the inflation that the falling dollar is going to cause in the short term. If the dollar goes to say USD 0.45 (and there are quite a few respected opinions for that) then petrol will double in price (more or less), all imported products will rise sharply in price. Don’t believe the c..p that retailers will simply absorb it in margins. i am in the importing game and there are NO margins left to absorb anything into! (The falling dolar risk is also a good reason to hold some Gold)
Im a high to hyper inflation scenario, theory would have it you need to be deep in debt. However you have to still have the cash flow to be able to hold the asset, and not all assets go up in line with inflation. Interest rates will sky-rocket as well but will be below ) in real after tax terms.
In another site I inhabit, the main man on the site (and he seems to be very smart) says…It is a bit like the Titanic – when it goes down we are all going to end up in cold water, we will all suffer. Make sure you are one of the ones with a life jacket – savings and Gold. I’d say also make sure i didn’t have lead boots in the form of debt.
I do have friends who have stocks of tinned food to last 6 to 12 months which they rotate…eat a bit and buy some new stuff. I’m thinking I wouldn’t go that far but i could be way wrong either way!
That might be enough from a bloke noone listens to anyway!
In the words of Irish comedian Dave Allen
“May your God go with you”
February 17th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Yogi bera said “it’s difficult to make predictions; Especially about the future”
February 17th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
I should add Talib bangs his drum a bit too much, and engenders too much helplessness.
Extreme events are more probable than thought, but we can do a lot more to handle then, bacuse they alway happen.
Resilience, redundancy, flexibility. A tip from nature.
Fragility, extereme efficiency and rigidity means when an ‘extreme event happens’ you are stuffed. Oak tree vs pine tree in a hurricane.
Systems theory is a great help, including the great Stafford Beer and his work on Viable Systems.
February 17th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
More on gold.
I am bearish gold for now. As deflation intensifies I expect gold to fall in value. The reason being that I expect people to sell anything they can to raise cash to pay off debt.
BUT!!! After the deflation gold will be a very sound investment. I believe towards the bottom of the deflation is when we will see the “big sell offs” and talk of new systems will intensify once the horse has bolted. It’s recurring human nature to start changing the system once the worst has just happened. Just like the saying. “It is darkest just before the dawn”.
I think gold is currently in a fear bubble. Once the share market makes its new bear market low in the next month or so, gold will fall hard as the bubble bursts. No assets goes one way forever though. After the fall will come the next rise. In theory anyway.
February 17th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
thanks for these responses. I guess I am in an ok position. I owe the bank 20% of the “now value” of my home. But I have no savings – because i put it all into my mortgage – I am about 6 years ahead with payments that I can draw down if needed (assuming the bank doesn’t do something very weird, a possibility some of you have floated).
I understand you can’t give advice but I wonder how many of you would pull out the pre-payments and buy gold…. do people actually own lumps of gold?! – cleverly disguised doorstops perhaps…
I fully agree that people should collect their own water and learn how to grow food. These are basic skills everyone should have and will be easier to acquire than those needed to critique statistical models that are based on normal curves assumptions and the definitions of “outliers”! -thanks to those of you who have those skills – I’ll share my tips on great silverbeet and happy chooks.
February 17th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
BTB….I think the big risk is the drop in the A$. I’m thinking the Gold a not too bad hedge against that..as you say teh USD itself is really a risk as well and it’s decline (against what?) would be Gold’s perfect storm of course!
Anyway, that is why i have bought gold lately…Currency hedge mainly.
February 17th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
BTB, I disagree with you on Gold. I’m bullish on gold. I agree it’s in a bubble, but I’m not sure it’s fear. It’s appealingly all sorts of things. I’ve even heard the employee, in a food chain store here talk about buying gold. Gold talk are getting mainstream. Based on other bubbles in the past, gold is likely to go from todays level to around 2700 dollars. That are modeled upon gold now being similar to the NASDAQ in 1998, when the final leg up came. Look at the charts, and you will see that gold now, is identical to NASDAQ back then.
February 17th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
If that happens, the federal reserve are likely to be forced to raise interest rates, that will be what ends it, just like they did in the depression to defend their gold reserves. Nothing cause a distrust in paper currencies as a bubble in gold. It’s possible to have full blown hyperinflation because of this. Gold’s that important.
February 17th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Hi All
With the discussions going on about gold and where to put money this is probably a bit off topic, but is about Sydney real estate agents saying that real estate is in a bull market.
Steve, you’re being quoted and lauded by Neil Jenman, the former real estate agent who is taking on the real estate ‘industry’ and their stretching of the truth. http://www.jenman.com.au/news_item.php?id=414
THE 2009 BULL BOOM – What the public should know.
Neil Jenman talks about a real estate agent in Sydney who’s advising that real estate in Sydney is a real ‘bull market’ but doubts if the real estate agent is buying property himself.
‘Almost everyone in Australia has now heard of Steve Keen. He’s a professor of Economics and Finance at the University of Western Sydney. Professor Keen has been widely quoted as saying that Australian property prices are going to crash. If the agents and spruikers are the big bulls, Professor Steve Keen is the grizzliest bear in town. Oh, and just in case, you’re wondering about Professor Keen’s track record of predictions, I have checked him out. It’s impressive.
A year ago (on February 9, 2008, to be precise), he said that interest rates would go “up for the next six months to a year” and then, afterwards, the rates would come “down like a brick.” That’s almost exactly what’s been happening.
Professor Steven Keen’s prediction record is much better than the perennially bullish agent.
Indeed, “much better” doesn’t do him justice. The Professor has been almost 100 per cent right. The “leading” bullish agent has been almost 100 per cent wrong.
I look at the people who listened to Mr Bullish Agent back in 2002. They took the advice to buy and they have recently sold. The $300,000 they have now lost equates to almost 35 per cent less than they paid at the peak of the boom.
And how much did Professor Keen predict that Australian property prices would fall from their peak? That’s right “something in the order of 40 per cent”. Whose laughing now?
Contrary to what the spruikers and agents say, I do not believe that 2009 is the best time to be investing in real estate. I don’t believe there is a boom coming anytime soon.’
Good stuff!
February 17th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Hi Prudent
They have started to make noises about no further drops in interest rates! They obviously do not know what they are doing.
As an aside, my son currently in Ireland, sent the following in an email from Dublin.
“There is alot of talk about the economy over here, looks like the Irish are feeling it pretty bad… The other day the government introduced some pension levy or something (not sure of the details) but the next day there were queues at many local members’ [offices] with angry people waiting to tell them what they thought… Not sure what the unemployment statistics are like here but I get the the impression its bad…”
But do not worry Turbull says that our economy is “debt free” and the banks are “sound”.
I bought that book that Steve mentions “The Great Depression of 1990″ some time before 1990. I thought at the time that the debt level then was close to unsustainable but now!!!! The “reforms” of the “reforms” mentioned in the appendix are no doubt the cause of the current problem. However I think that the original “reforms” probably delayed this garbage by about 35 years and the “confidence” gained by this delay caused the debt to rise to current astronomical levels. Did they ever know what they were doing? Have we ever had competent people in charge?
February 18th, 2009 at 1:43 am
The only reason interest rates went down in the 90-s as I think, was simply asian, and other buying that interfered in the bond market pushed down interest rates, causing the artificial 90-s boom in stocks and 2000 boom in housing, they pushing our rates down for the sake of their exports, and dual bubble. In my opinion the whole G7 is bankrupt. It’s like Iceland on a bigger scale, and instead of raising interest rates, they want to print money to keep rates down as they try bailouts, that’s really a strategy that will end badly I think. If gold takes off, I think the trust in paper currencies could simply be lost. Gold at 5000 dollar just don’t work if interest rates is at 0 % as the public is likely to put their faith in the yellow metal.
February 18th, 2009 at 2:15 am
The most important now, I think is for the federal reserve to get time stamped money out in the system. That would perhaps break the deflation psychology.
February 18th, 2009 at 6:39 am
Gold is closing in $1000oz.
There will be pull backs – some big but in the long term i feel it will be prudent to have some.
Silver likewise started the year at $11 – it just hit $14 today…Silver is still good value – i am buying it all the way to $18US.
February 18th, 2009 at 7:03 am
It really seems that Obama really are happy to just be president, and don’t understand he needs 4 trillions, not 800 billions. I’m afraid he is going to be a 1 term president unless they show more will to spend. The Republicans seems to be making sure that his presidency will be a disaster.
February 18th, 2009 at 8:12 am
Hi all.
For those that wish to buy gold and don’t know where to start.
http://www.ainsliebullion.com.au/easyweb3/IDe060b724e60e34/?MIval=ew_view&WEBID=78594&ep_code=e004p01_stdEshop
Cheers CK.
February 18th, 2009 at 8:25 am
Hi again.
Would like to share these couple of paragraphs from Leap/2020.
History is not known to be patient, therefore the fifth phase of the crisis will ignite this required process of reconstruction, but in a harsh manner: by means of a complete dislocation of the present system, with particularly tragic consequences in the case of several big global players, as described in this 32nd issue of the GEAB (see the two parallel sequences).
According to LEAP/E2020, there is only one very small launch window left to prevent this scenario from shaping up: the next four months, before summer 2009. Practically speaking, the April 2009 G20 Summit is probably the last chance to put on the right tracks the forces at play, i.e. before the sequence of UK and then US defaults begin (2). Failing which, they will lose their capacity to control events (3), including those in their own countries for many of them; and the world will enter this phase of geopolitical dislocation like a “drunken boat”. At the end of this phase of geopolitical dislocation, the world will look more like Europe in 1913 rather than our world in 2007.
The whole article can be read at this site.
http://www.leap2020.eu/index.php?action=&=
Cheers CK.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Hi Steve and others,
If there is going to be debt moratoria/debt pardon why doesn’t everyone just buy a house an be in debt?.
Is it a timing thing where the ones who loose their jobs earlier and not able to pay it back loose everything and the ones who are able to hang in until the government decide everything is not working and the only options is debt moratoria will reap the benefits?
Will the people who still have jobs still have to pay their debt while everyone is being bailed out? It would not not be fair considering the ones paying it back will have a lifetime of hardships and possibly may loose their house in future and for others it will be like winning the lotto?
February 18th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Interest rate cuts going to our loans, not pockets.
MORTGAGE holders are taking advantage of lower interest rates to pay off their loans faster, rather than pocketing the savings upfront. This has prompted some economists to call for automatic reductions to monthly loan repayments to help better stimulate the economy.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/interest-rate-cuts-going-to-our-loans-not-pockets-20090217-8abl.html
So now they want to coerce people to spend money instead of paying down their debt? They did not stop the debt binge when they were all making a big profit from the Housing Ponzi scheme?
February 18th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Anyone,
any comments to Alan kohlers article?
Dodging the deflationary trap
If you are looking for good news, check out the US money supply and the Federal Reserve’s balance sheet.
According to St Louis Fed president James Buller, the US monetary base has increased from $US871 billion in August to $US1.73 trillion in January 2009, all of it directly from the Fed.
As a result, in the past month credit conditions have eased for the first time in 18 months. David Cho and Richard Berner of Morgan Stanley report that: “A clear majority of firms in every other sector reported that credit availability had either remained the same or become easier over the past three months. In fact, at least half of all companies in the energy, healthcare and telecommunication services spaces indicated that the current credit environment was relatively less restrictive than in recent periods.”
Moreover, the Morgan Stanley Business Expectations index, rose 18 points to 36 per cent this month – the highest reading since the summer of 2008. This result was collaborated by the Philadelphia Fed survey, which has showed a similar improvement.
So “quantitative” monetary policy – flooding the US economy with cash – is working.
President Obama’s fiscal package will hopefully give a turbo boost, and by the middle of the year there might be some momentum in the economy once more.
February 18th, 2009 at 10:27 am
The Outback Oracle – that other site you mentioned – would that be JB?
I also read his thoughts…
February 18th, 2009 at 11:01 am
Hi Dojufitz,
Who is JB? I’m always keen to pump new opinions and theories into my small brain.
Hi Joshua,
Morgan Stanly must be desperate to find any thread of hope. Credit conditions are crashing, not improving.
The corporate bond market is in turmoil. With governments across the globe planning to borrow massive amounts of money this year. The corporate bond market will be further crowded out by a massive flight to quality. Also interest rates for corporations are and will continue to skyrocket. Corporate Bankruptcies are likely to soar in the next 18 months. Due to an inability to rollover capital alone. Risk aversion continues to rise!
Be careful when writers identify one metric to confirm their findings. This crisis is very complex. Re-read “Steve’s Roving Cavaliers of Credit” to see why expanding base money by $1T will have zero effect when credit money is crashing by the tens of trillions.
February 18th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Hi BTB,
JB is Jberni1 on youtube – you should be able to find his blog via his channel.
I think he is very good.
February 18th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Does the US have much debt?
http://thefinalhour.blogspot.com/2009/02/65-trillion-us-financial-obligations.html
February 19th, 2009 at 1:20 am
Is all those 65 trillions really something?
I think what is really going to break the western world are the baby boomers, and the time that have to come when they retire.
I think they have the mistaken belief that the governments will take care of them, not having saved. It could become a big problem.
February 19th, 2009 at 2:08 am
Hi Prudent
The baby boomers who have saved will also be a load on the system because the are loosing most of their saving right now. Many were “advised” by FAs to engaged in geared “investment” in shares and real estate. Joining the world and national Ponzi schemes.
Whatever the baby boomers are going to cost is going to be microscopic compared to the cost of the unravelling of the world banking and trading systems which is going on right now. (By at least 2 noughts).
We live in interresting times. The “wild west” era of economics.
February 19th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Ok, so what is the outlook for interest rates during debt-deflation then?? The usual reason for the RBA increasing them is to combat inflation, since this won’t be a problem during debt-deflation I would expect interest rates to fall further. Is this correct?? Also is it what happened during previous depressions??
February 19th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Prudent
A great resource on the demographics of baby boomers is Harry Dent Jnr’s ‘The Great Depression Ahead’ which cites the peak spending wave of the boomers in 2010 as a key driver of the depression.
February 19th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
I’ve written a review of Taleb’s The Black Swan, at http://dannyreviews.com/h/Black_Swan.html
February 20th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
DOUFITZ
I read itulip.com a lot. Steve is used as a source there and widely quoted. It’s very USA oriented but there are a lot of good contributors from all over the world.
It’s hard to beat Steve’s site here for an Australian outlook that’s for sure