I’m off to work with the CSIRO for a few days on modelling, and I may not be able to keep up with blog comments as well as I’d like to.
I’ve also had a correspondent who is prevented from posting to the blog by a too-strict Internet censoring policy in the country he’s currently in. I suggested that perhaps someone on the blog would be willing to “shadow” for him: i.e., sign on to the blog with an additional alias, and copy any emails from him as posts to the site.
If anyone is willing, please drop me a line and I’ll introduce you.
In the meantime, one thing he wanted to raise discussion about was Nassim Taleb’s “Black Swans” book, which is summarised in this article from the Sunday Times: June 1, 2008: Nassim Nicholas Taleb: the prophet of boom and doom. A brief (and not all that representative) extract from the article:
[America's] primary problem is that both banks and government are staffed by academic economists running their deluded models. Britain and Europe have better prospects because our economists tend to be more pragmatic, adapting to conditions rather than following models. But still we are dependent on American folly.
The central point is that we have created a world we don’t understand. There’s a place he calls Mediocristan. This was where early humans lived. Most events happened within a narrow range of probabilities – within the bell-curve distribution still taught to statistics students. But we don’t live there any more. We live in Extremistan, where black swans proliferate, winners tend to take all and the rest get nothing – there’s Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and a lot of software writers living in a garage, there’s Domingo and a thousand opera singers working in Starbucks. Our systems are complex but over-efficient. They have no redundancy, so a black swan strikes everybody at once. The banking system is the worst of all.
“Complex systems don’t allow for slack and everybody protects that system. The banking system doesn’t have that slack. In a normal ecology, banks go bankrupt every day. But in a complex system there is a tendency to cluster around powerful units. Every bank becomes the same bank so they can all go bust together.”
As someone trained in complexity theory, I have sympathies for the basic thesis of Black Swans, though since I am also a “Minskian” in my economics, I don’t regard this crisis as an unpredictable event, but all too predictable. What’s “Black Swan” about it is simply how big it is, and that’s partly the complex systems perspective: we are lulled into complacency by the small scale “close to the mean” events that happen all the time, but in a complex system it is the really big events that are so enormous that they shape the system, and in the long run the small events are irrelevant.
This is the opposite of a statistically random process, where the tiny movements about the mean are so many that they overwhelm the incredibly rare big events, which can safely be ignored.
At some point I’ll write a post on this topic as applied to the financial system, and also put some explanations of the technical issues. But in the meantime this book–and its discussion in The Sunday Times–may be worth a discussion.
Cheers, Steve






February 16th, 2009 at 7:47 am
So what is Steve Keen’s answer to the impending deflation in the United States? Do you endorse Irving Fisher’s negative interest scrip? Something else?
February 16th, 2009 at 8:29 am
Talking of Irving Fisher, today Paul Krugman says…
Krugman’s post includes an interesting graph of private and public debt as a percentage of GDP between 1929 and 1949.
February 16th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Good books I have just read.
The Black Swan is a ripper. I agree that the GFC is not a black swan. Taleb and Roubini are of the same opinion. It was entirely predictable.
Traders, Guns & Money: Knowns and unknowns in the dazzling world of derivatives by Satyajit Das.
Read about the madness from some one who was there. Another ripper.
The Predator State: How Conservatives Abandoned the Free Market and Why Liberals Should Too by James Galbraith
Rightist give up on economics and go for theft instead. A call for the defeat of market blinkered nonsense and a national mobilisation to defeat global warming.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Hi guys,
I’ve heard from a couple of friends that the very bullish property market in Bombay and India is down. Considering the population problem in India and more condensed in Bombay could this be a counter case of realism why demand supply problem always does not work?
I found this article at Business Spectator. Would appreciate people thoughts about this.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Indias-house-of-cards-$pd20090212-P768P?OpenDocument&src=sph
February 16th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Sorry guys for posting here. I’ve reposted in the “A discussion as well” blog.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Hi Steve, I am willing to act as a proxy for the economist who cant post to your site.
Lord knows I’m everybody’s Godfather these days.
February 16th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Is anybody able to provide some analysis of this?
http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/02/14/china-economic-stimulus/
Will this impact Australia or is it simply unsubstantiated Chinese/media optimism?
Does this mean I will still have to sell a kidney to be able to afford an Australian house?
February 16th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Hi peoples,
I’m curious to know why the 2nd law of thermodynamics isn,t overtly discussed in regards to all these models.
Aren’t we all trying to counter the eventual decay of things?
And another thing I’d like to know is how far we can push the systems we rely on before they tip? And I dare say I’d need those systems quantified so I know what we’re really sitting on and our consumption rate therein.
Does anyone have that knowledge?
February 16th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Steve _ I am online every day and would be happy to help out with additional posting. Marg
February 16th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Hi dobther, I think humanity always tries to counter the second law of thermodynamics, we just really suck in this department. As you know the best we can do is to try and slow it down somehow. In the end there will be no other option but to face the music.
February 16th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Hi Bfg,
Like the entire World. The China story is very complicated. When a writer pulls out one statistic to focus on, my alarm bells go off.
Some observations:
Chinese sharemarket is up 25% this year. Now the lending numbers show that credit is flowing. Interesting! Rising stock market leads to credit expansion.
In January, Chinese exports fell 17.9%. some say that’s because of the shortened month due to Chinese new year. But clients have told me that production around Chinese new year tends to get condensed, to fill the orders. Ambiguous!
The very very telling number though, is that imports to China fell 40+% in January.
It’s possible to conclude that China will starve its domestic economy (imports falling faster than exports means less to consume domestically) to keep feeding its export economy. As the world’s economies continue to shrink, Chinese export industries will crash from continued falling demand and rising debt levels.
The Chinese government and the World will keep talking up the domestic China story. Reality says they will try to repeat their past successes (everybody does) and try to reignite the export economy.
For further evidence of falling demand look to some of the other export numbers out of Asia. Japan down 30+%, Taiwan down 44% etc. Also the Baltic Dry Index may be up in the last month or so. But before that it fell 94%. Not a typo 94%.
Demand has crashed. China is living in the past. By trying to prop up its export growth bubble, the pain for China will be much worse. China cannot create worldwide demand.
China and Japan may well be the first countries to come out of this slump. The writer of the article you referenced seemed to think China had already turned. The de-leveraging has only just begun.
My tip is that China’s economy will crash totally before they start the re-building phase.
China is only slightly indirectly linked to House prices in Australia.
February 16th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Hi Bfg,
I have listed below some of the factors that are and will drive house prices lower in Australia. Forget China, that’s all the MSM knows. Consider these factors.
1. Debt levels in Australia are at all time highs. Housing speculation has been front page news for 30 years. Exponential growth is never sustainable.
2. Social mood is turning slowly. Debt levels haven’t even begun falling yet. Savings rates are only starting to turn up now. When the flood of social mood turns to saving over borrowing, businesses and house prices will crash faster in Oz than they did in the 1930s.
3. Risk aversion is still rising dramatically. Bond markets are continuing to lurch lower. Not only is new credit drying up, but existing loans and bonds are now being called up or not rolled over. “Debt as money” is shrinking fast. A new phase is about to begin where the shrinkage will intensify dramatically because there is no one willing to keep investing in debt.
4. The European banking system is heading for a cliff with no time to build a bridge. In fact, the bridge is an engineering impossibility. Irish bank debt is 11 times the size of its GDP. Ouch!!! Eastern Europe is bankrupt. Speculation is mounting that Ireland and Russia will begin defaulting on their bonds soon. One analyst suggested that a 10% default rate in Russia was large enough to set off a default chain reaction across Europe’s banking system.
5. More and more international banks will be nationalised. This will protect depositors somewhat. Shareholders, bondholders and borrowers will be smashed.
6. Australian banks will not be able to rollover their bonds as risk aversion and loss will mean there is no one to buy the bonds. Australia’s banks will need to be nationalised as well.
Australia cannot avoid the train wreck that is coming. It just may take time to reach our shores.
By the way. As I keep saying. Get your money, if you have any out of the banks. Even though it is “guaranteed” How many cents in the dollar will you get back? And how long will it take to get it?
Deflation is well and truly underway and the banking system is insolvent when deflation is in play, because paying down debt becomes harder and therefore Bank assets crash in value. When the depositors wake up, their money has already been lost.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
“I’m curious to know why the 2nd law of thermodynamics isn,t overtly discussed in regards to all these models.
Aren’t we all trying to counter the eventual decay of things?”
Er, for somewhat the same reason that the laws of thermodynamics are assumed, without being ignored, in evolutionary biology.
“…is strikingly reminiscent of the following creationist argument, found at Fundies Say The Darndest Things:
‘”One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex. That just isn’t possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it.”‘
February 16th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Thanks bullturnedbear, I’m too young to have experienced anything remotely like this before but I always imagined a crash instead of the (excuse the pun) gradual deflation we seem to be having.
Do you expect things to turn nasty in Australia very suddenly?
February 16th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Also, you might want to google Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen, who started out as a professor of statistics in Romania, versed in statistical mechanics/thermodynamics, and became a professor of economics, when he emigrated to the U.S. after WW2. He pioneered the economics of resource accounting and environmental economics, and suggested a “4th law of thermodynamics”: that increases in societal negentropy must always be counter-balanced by increases in positive entropy in the environment.
More generally, you might want to reference the notion of a “biosphere”, first developed by pre-revolutionary Russian biologists, which would state that life could only emerge and evolve through co-evolutionary relations between organisms, that synthesize, decompose, and recycle a mass of organic compounds between them, such that a fundamental condition for the emergence and evolution of life is a quasi-permanent condition of thermodynamic disequilibrium.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Hi All,
First, to Prof Steve Keen, this is a great blog and thank you for reaching out to the public, and most of all, allowing the public to debate important issues. All to often, the public is kept from participating in our society by the obscure technocratic language used by politicians, business, and economists.
In 2007, the upcoming financial crisis appeared obvious. There was no were else for the economy to go. Sorry, but I’m going to use people with 4wd’s as an example. The amount of 4WD’s on the road was ridiculous. When consumer behaviour is heading in the direction of unnecessary surplus goods, how is capitalism to remain healthy. Please, this is not an attack on all owner of 4WD’s, just an example.
Finally, to the point of Steve Keen’s article. I came upon Nassim Nicholas Taleb ‘the Zorba of statistics’ in frustration of how statistics was used in psychological sciences. His arguments are as valid for economics as they are for the rest of social sciences.
I would also like to point out other authors, not in the economist literature but closely related fields, who have a pointed out the faults and predicted the fall of neoliberal economic theory. And as Nassim Nicholas Taleb suggests, they all used qualitative arguments. They are John Ralston Saul, John N. Gray, Emmanual Todd (he also predicted the fall of the Soviet Union), and David Harvey.
Like Steve, I enjoy Mathematics but it does come with limitations. When it no longer builds to our knowledge of the world but is used to impress and confirm our beliefs, we have recipe for a black swan. We can never prove a theory true, fortunately we can prove it false. I hope the recent financial crisis will make us all look at the fallibility of our beliefs.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Hi john c. halasz,
“UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it.”‘”
Well, how about the SUN?
February 16th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
re – entropy – there is no need for entropy to be smooth and evenly distributed. Prigogine and Stengers wrote a classic popular science book on this – Order out of Chaos
Bullturnedbear and caution about money in the bank. Strangely this is one of the reasons we are buying a house (to live in) at the moment. Prices have fallen maybe 20% off the peak in our area. We’ll lose some money but rent is expensive and deposits don’t earn much at the moment. And there is no guarantee that a house we like will be available at the bottom of the market.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Bfg,
I expect deflation and depression to play out over a long period of time. Ie, 10 to 20 years. I have no idea how fast it will escalate though.
I have been waiting for about two years. The process seems to be moving much slower than I expected.
In saying this, The banking system is surviving on bailouts. When the political will or investor money runs out, the system will crash.
Many people point to a Japan style “lost decade”. Whilst that is possible, I think the worldwide scale of the over-indebtedness to too large for bailouts to keep holding off the inevitable like it did in Japan.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Good luck Nanks,
I hope you don’t have to borrow to buy.
In a depression most in debt will not be able to “hang on”. They think they will be able to hang on based on their recent experience. The recent past will not mirror the future this time.
One needs to see how it was done in the 1890s or 1930s to see if you can hang on. Most could not hang on.
My guess, is that most will lose all of their perceived wealth. Even the ones that saw this coming will be losers. Myself included.
There are just too many variables to predict. The systems are just too complex.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
thanks Bullturnedbear – no, we will pay cash – I would not do this if we were borrowing.
February 16th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
ueberbaer:
Ya, that was the joke, since the original quote was in earnest.
I remembered that comment from another blog a few weeks back, by a U.K. finance journalist who posts as “Ginger Yellow”, and I thought I might repost the joke here. The subject of the initial sentence that I dropped, by the way, was U. of C. economics professor John Cochrane, who Ginger was comparing to creationists, and who was apparently arguing fallaciously against any effort at fiscal stimulus policy based on the NIPA accounting identity: savings = investment. (More subtly, he may have been trying to argue that any fiscal policy is “really” covertly a monetary policy, but that just goes to show how far secondary elaborations can go to defend one’s crumbling dogma).
February 16th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Hi all.
Good to see (read) everyone is alive and well.
Steve, BTB & PS in particular if you have not already read these two post from professor Antal Fekete you should. And anyone else.
http://www.professorfekete.com/articles%5CAEFHowToStopTheDepression.pdf
http://www.professorfekete.com/articles%5CAEFGrowthAndDebt.pdf
Now, not wishing to sound alarmist, but I am stocking up on non perishables. I don’t see this as an expense but an investment.
For those old enough, 20 years ago we (Aussie’s) use to laugh at the state of Russia with a waiting list of a year for an electrician, 2 years for a plumber and empty food shelves in their grocery stores. Boy’ haven’t times changed.
Regards CK.
February 16th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Hi Steve;
You posted;
“What’s “Black Swan” about it is simply how big it is..”
I don’t believe that the size of this qualifies as a Black Swan event. Consider the total derivative market is 500 TRILLION plus, and we are now dealing with what – 3-4 Trillion in (expected) losses this far? As painful as this already is , we are only scratching the surface of the derivative meltdown.
Obviously it will be substantially more and take much longer to resolve than a couple of years to do a full wash out , though the Banksters will fight tooth and nail to avoid full disclosure as they milk taxpayers money to keep the Ponzi economy going. Which kinda makes sense if you are inside and know where all this is heading.
Govt’s will support that agenda for fear of scaring the bejesus out of their citizens with the whole awful truth of the massive losses that are toxifying presently in these derivatives. The result of which would cause an immediate run on the banks and disabling society as we know it.
The Black Swan event will be seen when we witness general society’s reaction to the knowledge that their banking system is a hollowed out facade and their wealth squandered or confiscated. I suspect that it will be far from pretty.
February 16th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Hi Bullturnedbear,
I have an offset account that offsets 30% of my bros mortgage. I wonder what would happen if the banks are not able to pay me back? Would they write off that portion of my brothers debt? I dont think they can get away with saying we cant pay you back and at the same time not reducing his debt?
Maybe I can pull out till this mess gets sorted out?
February 16th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
“As I keep saying. Get your money, if you have any out of the banks.” – Bullturnedbear
But does one stash it safely without inconvenience?
I sold my house before the rollerdoor came down. I’m looking for something to buy, but waiting for prices to come down some more. In the meantime the cash is split between a bank term deposit and at-call high-earning (now low earning) bank savings account. So where should I put it?
And if you’re feeling helpful, here’s another question. I have a margin loan which I’m paying down. If you were I, would you sell the managed funds bought with it now, or wait a little for some ‘bounce’ in their value?
February 16th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Hi Joshua,
I have not checked the fine print of offset account. I suspect the law could get very bogged down debating offset accounts. Banks usually act based on “their interpretation” and let the law take care of the law. So I’d say they would take your money and you would have to bring the fight to them later.
My fear with banking is that an event occurs meaning that banks don’t open on a hypothetical Monday morning. Once that occurs, the depositor will stand in line hoping that some or all of their money will be recovered. Western governments will probably try to ensure that depositors take first priority (for fear of adding to deflation). During the time the mess is being sorted out you will not be able to withdraw your money. It may also be the case that after banks re-open, withdrawal restrictions are imposed. (say, max withdrawal for a day $200)
While all this is going on, the value of all assets will be uncertain and some assets will trade for very low prices. A predict a massive spike down to occur and then reverse itself.
February 16th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Hi BTB
You sound like a bloke who has a fair idea what he is talking about. Are you ever on radio?
In the depression scenario you visualise, how does Gold fare?
There are 2 aspects,
Does it’s dollar value go down with everything else?
How would we be able to spend it anyway?
Cheers
February 16th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here. A big hole punched in aggregate demand, stimuli that don’t counteract it and 5 years of no or low growth would be a reasonable expectation. You never know, in the 5 years some useful re-orientation to manufacturing may get us going again. Needless to say assets will take a big dive but I see no likelihood of a breakdown in society.
February 16th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Royle would you mind just expanding a little as to where the “low” growth might come from? I’m not attacking your statement, I just look for ideas.(mainly because I am damned well bereft of ideas just at the moment!)
I’m not sure BTB is predicting a breakdown in our society, although i can see it coming uinder a lot of pressure. He is saying that there is a fair probability of a breakdown of the financial world as we know it.
February 16th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Question; after reading this http://www.professorfekete.com/articles%5CAEFHowToStopTheDepression.pdf Why does running a deficit need to be “paid for” by issuing a bond. I understand that if it isn’t then it’s inflationary, it destroys savings and encourages debt (but isn’t the right answer not to run a deficit).
Say for example the deficit goes into a welfare payment. This means someone (nice simple example) has been provided with extra money to spend which hasn’t been collected in taxes, so there is an extra dollar in circulation which needs to be “removed” by buying a bond from someone (someone else who supposedly has done the right thing by earning that extra dollar from the beneficiary, or even just the bank who just collected the extra welfare payment by deposit just for being a bank). So the Government issues a bond in an equal amount to the extra welfare that was handed out, pays interest on the money, and then when the bond is redeemed pays it back to the person the money was borrowed from. So in effect the extra welfare payment is paid for twice over once to the person who was assisted, and the second time in interest and then paid back (ie it’s perpetual debt talked about in the above article).
Doesn’t that end up being more inflationary than just printing the money once?
February 16th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Hi john c. halasz,
That’s the last thing I want to invoke, some voodoo sky monkey. I want to know the value of entropy running up behind us.
I know we’ve got that wonderful thermonuclear globe in the sky dumping in copious amounts of energy for our disposal but what about the chill?
Where are we on that river of energy?
You see, we can have all the models we like, and look were that’s got us, but what about the reality?!
February 16th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Hi, The Outback Oracle
I think the trick would be for the government to debt finance the re-industrialisation. Can it be done, I don’t know. Will the saving countries lend is the money? I don’t know. However the country can feed, cloth and house everybody on a stand alone basis. Perhaps a planned & command economy for part of the transition.
February 16th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
bullturnedbear i noticed in one comment
2. Social mood is turning slowly. Debt levels haven’t even begun falling yet. Savings rates are only starting to turn up now. When the flood of social mood turns to saving over borrowing, businesses and house prices will crash faster in Oz than they did in the 1930s.
The question is do they calculate it based on physical saving eg: bank account or is it calculated on how much we don’t spend?
Just trying to figure it out and thanks in advance.
Steve big thanks for your time and blog:)
February 16th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/debt-in-wartime/
Krugman are starting to look at fishers debt deflation theories now. It seems he to are coming to the conclusion that what is needed is a flood of government spending, maybe followed by WW3, just to top it off..
However, if the dollar is kind of finished, and the Chinese have a “huge base” to expand on. Then, I really don’t see it play out that way. Because China don’t have any significant consumer debt to speak of.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
I’ll expand why I’m asking with a preposition.
Money is the crystallisation of trust. i.e. common unit of money will buy a bushel of grain over in the next valley as it will in mine.
So we’re all floating on this river of energy, powered by our expectations. Which is feed at the tributary by our magnanimous Sun and lucky enough for us, also added too by some other rivers, namely Texas Tea and Black Gold.
There’s some disquiet about, expectations aren’t being meet. There’s rumours the other tributaries aren’t flowing as desired. More is needed, others’ expectations are added (loans) and with that, their lot. Then comes to the helm the calamity of bad news. The system of motion is lost and we’re, where???. Abandon Ship is announced and out we go upon the river by our own power…
May there be fractional reserve inflation and as Steve has so eloquently informed us, endogenous credit inflation (but if the banks aren’t lending…). That aside I still think there’s entropy not accounted for in the economic models and I would hate to find that many find themselves floundering out in the sea of entropy ’cause they don’t have enough available means to keep energised.
So I ask: Where abouts are we?
February 16th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Hi Warren,
It’s been the same for a while now: debt moratoria. A substantial debt writedown because honouring debt that should never have been issued in the first place, and vastly overwhelms society’s capacity to finance it, will cripple the economy for decades.
That said, I’m not a fan of the negative script approach once we have (if we ever do) gotten out of this crisis. I think trying to escape the fundamental nature of debt finance is futile; instead I’d rather remove the attraction that leveraged speculation has for would-be borrowers. That involves redefining capital assets so that leveraged speculation is no longer profitable–hence my proposals for valuing houses on the basis of imputed rents, and limiting debt to a multiple of that; and making shares expire after 25 years.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
Perhaps your correspondent would like to look at the Tor network.
http://www.torproject.org/
There is an installer there that will add the right plugins for firefox, proxies and so on. It will be necessary to read the surrounding documentation to maximise security and anomymity.
If your correspondent is tech savvy and able to network, he might like to look at astalavista.box.sk as a kind of starting point to find contacts willing to maximise anonymity.
February 17th, 2009 at 12:18 am
Hi Outback,
I have intently read and learned from your comments on China and foreign debt for a long time. Thank you.
No radio for me. I like this site though. The flow of ideas is interesting and challenging.
In theory, the price of gold should fall in deflation. Less cash in circulation means less competition for goods. Therefore price falls.
Many people view gold as money though. So people appear to be buying gold as a safety hedge against systematic collapse. This is causing the price to rise in a fear bubble (my opinion). I believe their interpretation of the outcome of systematic collapse may be incorrect though. Here’s what I mean:
The type of systematic collapse I am expecting is a massive reduction in the money supply resulting from huge debt destruction. Because the money supply will greatly reduce, the value of cash will rise relative to all goods and services. So why on earth would you throw out a system based on cash? When the cash has a new found high value. When the value of cash rises relative to goods. People will want the cash even more. People will sell whatever they can to get cash. Gold included.
The experience in different countries will differ greatly of course. Currency readjustments will also distort the value of gold. I believe Oz has massive domestic and foreign debt. Therefore the debt destruction and shrinking money supply potential is very large. I believe Oz will experience deflation.
After deflation will come inflation again. Sometime before the inflation is measured and reported the price of gold and many shares and commodities will begin rising again.
The pain in the macro economy though, will last well after the markets have started rising again.
February 17th, 2009 at 12:35 am
I’m just wondering what the implications of the expansion of the Chinese money supply means, as it’s growing at a 100 % year on year basis in January. Credit growth are apparently going nuts in China. They are almost debt free, with only around 18 % public debt. Maybe they could have a development as the US had after 1950. Maybe looking to the US is looking to the wrong country.
February 17th, 2009 at 12:37 am
Steve Keen
why don’t you just increase transaction costs to discourage speculation?
February 17th, 2009 at 1:12 am
Hello All
Did anyone else see the advertisement on SBS television in Sydney on sunday night 9/2/09 which was spruiking leveraged “investment” in shares? What is going on!
There is a growing outcry against “protectionism” by politicians in the current account defecit countries, aswell as the surplus countries. How do they propose to manage the debt and the need for a continuing stream of credit just to re-establish the pre-crash situation? In effect the mechanism that has allowed this accumulation of debt and the resulting collapse must be stopped. These people should realise that a country that is accumulating foreign debt is in fact proctectionist and is causing global instability. This problem must be sorted out before prosperity can return. The ignorance of the effect of debt is the nemesis black swan of neoclassical economics it is becomming clear that this neoclassical confidence is simply hubris.
February 17th, 2009 at 6:53 am
Because in twenty years time some “reforming politician would abolish them, on “the best economic advice” that this tax “caused inefficiencies”.
OK, that is a bit harsh–it would probably take about 40 years.
There is a not so brilliant book entitled “The Great Depression of 1990″ by Ravi Butra, which redeems itself by having an appendix that lists all the Great Depression financial reforms, and the dates of their repeals (up till 1990 of course). I makes sobering reading for anyone thinking that reforms like transaction taxes would prevent the problem recurring.
As Minsky argued, “stability is destabilising”. Especially if such regulations succeeded, they would encourage a mindset that they were unnecessary.
February 17th, 2009 at 8:29 am
It’s pretty clear now, that China and US are speaking together again, China are demanding that the US guarantee the treasury market, that they don’t have reckless policies, how fun is that, they are resuming military talks. I think the outcome of Hillary Clinton’s visit to China will be that the Chinese start to further strenghten the RMB. Look at oil, just the day in a matter of days after China stopped their increases in the RMB, the oil price collapsed, and the BDI tanked last year. Now that they have inflation under control it’s all ready to blow up again, if Clinton get’s what she is coming for, that is.
February 17th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Hi dobther,
If your question is about whether we face a continuing and worsening global ecological/environmental crisis, (or rather proliferation of crises), then the brute answer is: yes.
As to what measures might be taken to counteract such crises, well, more natural scientific research without interference from dominant economic or political interests, yielding better models and more information about the natural world, better resource accounting and better integration of such accounting into economic models and cost/benefit analyses, development of more refined and integrated technologies to improve resource efficiency and reduce or recycle pollution and waste, a more balanced and equitable, less predatory global trading system, more equitable income distribution and the development of more resource-efficient “styles” of consumption would all be pieces of the puzzle. Could that all be accommodated by capitalism as we’ve known it, driven above all by a relentless need to expand private profits? I seriously doubt it.
(As to what equity and equality might have to do with resource efficiency, consider the case of a forest owned by a single person, with everyone else having to scrounge for a living at its edges. That one person might clear and profitably sell off the forest, leaving everyone else to scrounge all the more desperately among the remaining waste, even though the realized profit was much less that the aggregate and long-run value of the resources of the forest. If, on the other hand, everyone were to own a share in the cultivation of the resources of that forest, then it would be far less likely to be cleared and sold off at less than long-run value. Something like the former case happens nowadays all the time, especially in the “developing” world. Several years ago, China’s vice minister for the environment gave a speech, declaring that the true costs of pollution and environmental damage in China actually exceeded the high rate of growth. The only good news there is that that fellow was not subsequently fired or punished, but rather promoted. But that goes to how an unbalanced and predatory global trading system exacerbates ecological/environmental problems).
As for what any of this would have to do with excessive debt loads and the global financial crisis, (which has long plagued the “developing” world, but is now centered on the developed world), well, financial “assets” are just paper legal claims of future revenues from current and foreseeable real production. The greater the stock of financial “assets” in relation to the real productive capacity of the current economy, the further out into the future those claims extend, and, since the further out into the future one’s horizon extends, the more uncertain and less projectively “knowable” it becomes, the more likely that the expectations contained in the structure of the financial system will not be fulfilled, but rather disrupted by unforeseen “shocks”. And, yes, some of those “shocks” might well involve mistaken estimates of the availability, cost and sustainability of environmental resources.
February 17th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Following this brilliant ‘blog’ it reminds me very much of the old western movies I used to watch as a kid. The powerful U.S. Army was in the ‘wild’ west just trying to do a good day’s job of ….you guessed it, finding and killing “injans”. the startegy was send scouts out in front of the army to scout the ‘scene’ for the ‘defenders of the U.S.’. This public ‘blog’ and Dr Keen’s work in presenting same, represents very much the ‘economic scouting’ of our future in Oz!It is so amusing to see our beloved media so far ‘off the main game’ and the commentators in it so far behind reality(assuming they in fact believe what they are saying) as it is intelligently portrayed here in this blog, that it is akin to them being ‘back at the fort’playing the old fiddle and chewing ‘tabakki’! as an old song goes” sad, so sad the song”!Our political ‘players’(julie bishop et al)still enjoying the musical tribute to ‘musical chairs’!while we all burn they……!
February 17th, 2009 at 10:41 am
john c. halasz – You know I think some bright spark could do it (or many more like it). I recently viewed Google Earth and then after reading your post it lend me to hypothesise, that an algorithm run over that program would be able to get us close to what the production capacity of earth is.
Does anyone know if anyone is doing this?
February 17th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Bullturnedbear, i have to ask about your comment “Get your money, if you have any out of the banks”. Have you taken yours and buried it in the backyard*?
* And where do you live? Just kidding
Nanks, well done on the house, very jealous, I’m still waiting for 20%+ drops in my area?
February 17th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
We are in a typical 19th century debt implosion which needs to run through to the end. But now we think absurdly that we can make water run up hill and make new debt cancel out bad debt. Read up on 1956-57 and how an obscure Ohio bank’s failure set off a global cascade like this one.
Black swans surprise people who don’t know any economic or market history.
Steve Keen is in the right place at the right time. Thanks Steve.
Tom Drake
http://twocents.blogs.com
February 17th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
oooops…that was 1856-57, of course.