“Talk about centralisation! The credit system, which has its focus in the so-called national banks and the big money-lenders and usurers surrounding them, constitutes enormous centralisation, and gives this class of parasites the fabulous power, not only to periodically despoil industrial capitalists, but also to interfere in actual production in a most dangerous manner— and this gang knows nothing about production and has nothing to do with it.” [1]
Ten years ago, a quote from Marx would have one deemed a socialist, and dismissed from polite debate. Today, such a quote can (and did, along with Charlie’s photo) appear in a feature in the Sydney Morning Herald—and not a few people would have been nodding their heads at how Marx got it right on bankers.F
He got it wrong on some other issues,[2] but his analysis of money and credit, and how the credit system can bring an otherwise well-functioning market economy to its knees, was spot on. His observations on the financial crisis of 1857 still ring true today:
“A high rate of interest can also indicate, as it did in 1857, that the country is undermined by the roving cavaliers of credit who can afford to pay a high interest because they pay it out of other people’s pockets (whereby, however, they help to determine the rate of interest for all), and meanwhile they live in grand style on anticipated profits.
Simultaneously, precisely this can incidentally provide a very profitable business for manufacturers and others. Returns become wholly deceptive as a result of the loan system…”[1]
One and a half centuries after Marx falsely predicted the demise of capitalism, the people most likely to bring it about are not working class revolutionaries, but the “Roving Cavaliers of Credit”, against whom Marx quite justly railed.
This month’s Debtwatch is dedicated to analysing how these Cavaliers actually “make” money and debt—something they think they understand, but in reality, they don’t. A sound model of how money and debt are created makes it obvious that we should never have fallen for the insane notion that the financial system should be self-regulating. All that did was give the Cavaliers a licence to run amok, with the consequences we are now experiencing yet again—150 years after Marx described the crisis that led him to write Das Kapital.
The conventional model: the “Money Multiplier”
Every macroeconomics textbook has an explanation of how credit money is created by the system of fractional banking that goes something like this:
- Banks are required to retain a certain percentage of any deposit as a reserve, known as the “reserve requirement”; for simplicity, let’s say this fraction is 10%.
- When customer Sue deposits say 100 newly printed government $10 notes at her bank, it is then obliged to hang on to ten of them—or $100—but it is allowed to lend out the rest.
- The bank then lends $900 to its customer Fred, who then deposits it in his bank—which is now required to hang on to 9 of the bills—or $90—and can lend out the rest. It then lends $810 to its customer Kim.
- Kim then deposits this $810 in her bank. It keeps $81 of the deposit, and lends the remaining $729 to its customer Kevin.
- And on this iterative process goes.
- Over time, a total of $10,000 in money is created—consisting of the original $1,000 injection of government money plus $9,000 in credit money—as well as $9,000 in total debts. The following table illustrates this, on the assumption that the time lag between a bank receiving a new deposit, making a loan, and the recipient of the loan depositing them in other banks is a mere one week.

This model of how banks create credit is simple, easy to understand (this version omits the fact that the public holds some of the cash in its own pockets rather than depositing it all in the banks; this detail is easily catered for and is part of the standard model taught to economists),… and completely inadequate as an explanation of the actual data on money and debt.
The Data versus the Money Multiplier Model
Two hypotheses about the nature of money can be derived from the money multiplier model:
1. The creation of credit money should happen after the creation of government money. In the model, the banking system can’t create credit until it receives new deposits from the public (that in turn originate from the government) and therefore finds itself with excess reserves that it can lend out. Since the lending, depositing and relending process takes time, there should be a substantial time lag between an injection of new government-created money and the growth of credit money.
2. The amount of money in the economy should exceed the amount of debt, with the difference representing the government’s initial creation of money. In the example above, the total of all bank deposits tapers towards $10,000, the total of loans converges to $9,000, and the difference is $1,000, which is the amount of initial government money injected into the system. Therefore the ratio of Debt to Money should be less than one, and close to (1-Reserve Ratio): in the example above, D/M=0.9, which is 1 minus the reserve ratio of 10% or 0.1.
Both these hypotheses are strongly contradicted by the data.
Testing the first hypothesis takes some sophisticated data analysis, which was done by two leading neoclassical economists in 1990.[3] If the hypothesis were true, changes in M0 should precede changes in M2. The time pattern of the data should look like the graph below: an initial injection of government “fiat” money, followed by a gradual creation of a much larger amount of credit money:

Their empirical conclusion was just the opposite: rather than fiat money being created first and credit money following with a lag, the sequence was reversed: credit money was created first, and fiat money was then created about a year later:
“There is no evidence that either the monetary base or M1 leads the cycle, although some economists still believe this monetary myth. Both the monetary base and M1 series are generally procyclical and, if anything, the monetary base lags the cycle slightly. (p. 11)
The difference in the behavior of M1 and M2 suggests that the difference of these aggregates (M2 minus M1) should be considered… The difference of M2 – M1 leads the cycle by even more than M2, with the lead being about three quarters.” (p. 12)
Thus rather than credit money being created with a lag after government money, the data shows that credit money is created first, up to a year before there are changes in base money. This contradicts the money multiplier model of how credit and debt are created: rather than fiat money being needed to “seed” the credit creation process, credit is created first and then after that, base money changes.
It doesn’t take sophisticated statistics to show that the second prediction is wrong—all you have to do is look at the ratio of private debt to money. The theoretical prediction has never been right—rather than the money stock exceeding debt, debt has always exceeded the money supply—and the degree of divergence has grown over time.(there are attenuating factors that might affect the prediction—the public hoarding cash should make the ratio less than shown here, while non-banks would make it larger—but the gap between prediction and reality is just too large for the theory to be taken seriously).

Academic economics responded to these empirical challenges to its accepted theory in the time-honoured way: it ignored them.
Well, the so-called “mainstream” did—the school of thought known as “Neoclassical economics”. A rival school of thought, known as Post Keynesian economics, took these problems seriously, and developed a different theory of how money is created that is more consistent with the data.
This first major paper on this approach, “The Endogenous Money Stock” by the non-orthodox economist Basil Moore, was published almost thirty years ago.[4] Basil’s essential point was quite simple. The standard money multiplier model’s assumption that banks wait passively for deposits before starting to lend is false. Rather than bankers sitting back passively, waiting for depositors to give them excess reserves that they can then on-lend,
“In the real world, banks extend credit, creating deposits in the process, and look for reserves later”.[5]
Thus loans come first—simultaneously creating deposits—and at a later stage the reserves are found. The main mechanism behind this are the “lines of credit” that major corporations have arranged with banks that enable them to expand their loans from whatever they are now up to a specified limit.
If a firm accesses its line of credit to, for example, buy a new piece of machinery, then its debt to the bank rises by the price of the machine, and the deposit account of the machine’s manufacturer rises by the same amount. If the bank that issued the line of credit was already at its own limit in terms of its reserve requirements, then it will borrow that amount, either from the Federal Reserve or from other sources.
If the entire banking system is at its reserve requirement limit, then the Federal Reserve has three choices:
- refuse to issue new reserves and cause a credit crunch;
- create new reserves; or
- relax the reserve ratio.
Since the main role of the Federal Reserve is to try to ensure the smooth functioning of the credit system, option one is out—so it either adds Base Money to the system, or relaxes the reserve requirements, or both.
Thus causation in money creation runs in the opposite direction to that of the money multiplier model: the credit money dog wags the fiat money tail. Both the actual level of money in the system, and the component of it that is created by the government, are controlled by the commercial system itself, and not by the Federal Reserve.
Central Banks around the world learnt this lesson the hard way in the 1970s and 1980s when they attempted to control the money supply, following neoclassical economist Milton Friedman’s theory of “monetarism” that blamed inflation on increases in the money supply. Friedman argued that Central Banks should keep the reserve requirement constant, and increase Base Money at about 5% per annum; this would, he asserted cause inflation to fall as people’s expectations adjusted, with only a minor (if any) impact on real economic activity.
Though inflation was ultimately suppressed by a severe recession, the monetarist experiment overall was an abject failure. Central Banks would set targets for the growth in the money supply and miss them completely—the money supply would grow two to three times faster than the targets they set.
Ultimately, Central Banks abandoned monetary targetting, and moved on to the modern approach of targetting the overnight interest rate as a way to control inflation.[6] Several Central Banks—including Australia’s RBA—completely abandoned the setting of reserve requirements. Others—such as America’s Federal Reserve—maintained them, but had such loopholes in them that they became basically irrelevant. Thus the US Federal Reserve sets a Required Reserve Ratio of 10%, but applies this only to deposits by individuals; banks have no reserve requirement at all for deposits by companies.[7]
However, neoclassical economic theory never caught up with either the data, or the actual practices of Central Banks—and Ben Bernanke, a leading neoclassical theoretician, and unabashed fan of Milton Friedman, is now in control of the Federal Reserve. He is therefore trying to resolve the financial crisis and prevent deflation in a neoclassical manner: by increasing the Base Money supply.
Give Bernanke credit for trying here: the rate at which he is increasing Base Money is unprecedented. Base Money doubled between 1994 and 2008; Bernanke has doubled it again in just the last 4 months.

If the money multiplier model of money creation were correct, then ultimately this would lead to a dramatic growth in the money supply as an additional US$7 trillion of credit money was gradually created.

If neoclassical theory was correct, this increase in the money supply would cause a bout of inflation, which would end bring the current deflationary period to a halt, and we could all go back to “business as usual”. That is clearly what Bernanke is banking on:
“The conclusion that deflation is always reversible under a fiat money system follows from basic economic reasoning. A little parable may prove useful: Today an ounce of gold sells for $300, more or less. Now suppose that a modern alchemist solves his subject’s oldest problem by finding a way to produce unlimited amounts of new gold at essentially no cost. Moreover, his invention is widely publicized and scientifically verified, and he announces his intention to begin massive production of gold within days.
What would happen to the price of gold? Presumably, the potentially unlimited supply of cheap gold would cause the market price of gold to plummet. Indeed, if the market for gold is to any degree efficient, the price of gold would collapse immediately after the announcement of the invention, before the alchemist had produced and marketed a single ounce of yellow metal.
Like gold, U.S. dollars have value only to the extent that they are strictly limited in supply. But the U.S. government has a technology, called a printing press (or, today, its electronic equivalent), that allows it to produce as many U.S. dollars as it wishes at essentially no cost.
By increasing the number of U.S. dollars in circulation, or even by credibly threatening to do so, the U.S. government can also reduce the value of a dollar in terms of goods and services, which is equivalent to raising the prices in dollars of those goods and services. We conclude that, under a paper-money system, a determined government can always generate higher spending and hence positive inflation…
If we do fall into deflation, however, we can take comfort that the logic of the printing press example must assert itself, and sufficient injections of money will ultimately always reverse a deflation.” [8]
However, from the point of view of the empirical record, and the rival theory of endogenous money, this will fail on at least four fronts:
1. Banks won’t create more credit money as a result of the injections of Base Money. Instead, inactive reserves will rise;
2. Creating more credit money requires a matching increase in debt—even if the money multiplier model were correct, what would the odds be of the private sector taking on an additional US$7 trillion in debt in addition to the current US$42 trillion it already owes?;
3. Deflation will continue because the motive force behind it will still be there—distress selling by retailers and wholesalers who are desperately trying to avoid going bankrupt; and
4. The macroeconomic process of deleveraging will reduce real demand no matter what is done, as Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer recently noted: “We’re certainly in the midst of a once-in-a-lifetime set of economic conditions. The perspective I would bring is not one of recession. Rather, the economy is resetting to lower level of business and consumer spending based largely on the reduced leverage in economy”.[9]
The only way that Bernanke’s “printing press example” would work to cause inflation in our current debt-laden would be if simply Zimbabwean levels of money were printed—so that fiat money could substantially repay outstanding debt and effectively supplant credit-based money.
Measured on this scale, Bernanke’s increase in Base Money goes from being heroic to trivial. Not only does the scale of credit-created money greatly exceed government-created money, but debt in turn greatly exceeds even the broadest measure of the money stock—the M3 series that the Fed some years ago decided to discontinue.

Bernanke’s expansion of M0 in the last four months of 2008 has merely reduced the debt to M0 ratio from 47:1 to 36:1 (the debt data is quarterly whole money stock data is monthly, so the fall in the ratio is more than shown here given the lag in reporting of debt).

To make a serious dent in debt levels, and thus enable the increase in base money to affect the aggregate money stock and hence cause inflation, Bernanke would need to not merely double M0, but to increase it by a factor of, say, 25 from pre-intervention levels. That US$20 trillion truckload of greenbacks might enable Americans to repay, say, one quarter of outstanding debt with one half—thus reducing the debt to GDP ratio about 200% (roughly what it was during the DotCom bubble and, coincidentally, 1931)—and get back to some serious inflationary spending with the other (of course, in the context of a seriously depreciating currency). But with anything less than that, his attempts to reflate the American economy will sink in the ocean of debt created by America’s modern-day “Roving Cavaliers of Credit”.

How to be a “Cavalier of Credit”
Note Bernanke’s assumption (highlighted above) in his argument that printing money would always ultimately cause inflation: “under a fiat money system“. The point made by endogenous money theorists is that we don’t live in a fiat-money system, but in a credit-money system which has had a relatively small and subservient fiat money system tacked onto it.
We are therefore not in a “fractional reserve banking system”, but in a credit-money one, where the dynamics of money and debt are vastly different to those assumed by Bernanke and neoclassical economics in general.[10]
Calling our current financial system a “fiat money” or “fractional reserve banking system” is akin to the blind man who classified an elephant as a snake, because he felt its trunk. We live in a credit money system with a fiat money subsystem that has some independence, but certainly doesn’t rule the monetary roost—far from it.
The best place to start to analyse the monetary system is therefore to consider a model of a pure credit economy—a toy economy in which there is no government sector and no Central Bank whatsoever—and see how that model behaves.
The first issue in such a system is how does one become a bank?—or a “cavalier of credit” in Marx’s wonderfully evocative phrase? The answer was provided by the Italian non-orthodox economist Augusto Graziani: a bank is a third party to all transactions, whose account-keeping between buyer and seller is regarded as finally settling all claims between them.
Huh? What does that mean? To explain it, I’ll compare it with the manner in which we’ve been misled to thinking about the market economy by neoclassical economics.
It has deluded us into thinking of a market economy as being fundamentally a system of barter. Every transaction is seen as being two sided, and involving two commodities: Farmer Maria wants to sell pigs and buy copper pipe; Plumber Joe wants to sell copper pipe and buy pigs.

Money simply eliminates the problem that it’s very hard for Plumber Joe to find Farmer Maria. Instead, they each sell their commodity for money, and then exchange that money for the commodity they really want. The picture appears more complicated—there are two markets introduced as well, with Farmer Maria selling pigs to the pig market in return for money, Plumber Joe doing the same thing in the copper market, and then armed with money from their sales, they go across to the other market and buy what they want. But it is still a lot easier than a plumber going out to try to find a pig farmer who wants copper pipes.
In this model of the economy, money is useful in that it replaces a very difficult search process with a system of markets. But fundamentally the system is no different to the barter model above: money is just a convenient “numeraire”, and anything at all could be used—even copper pipe or pigs—so long as all markets agreed to accept it. Gold tends to be the numeraire of choice because it doesn’t degrade, and paper money merely replaces gold as a more convenient form of numeraire.

Importantly, in this model, money is an asset to its holder, but a liability to no-one. There is money, but no debt. The fractional banking model that is tacked onto this vision of bartering adds yet another market where depositors (savers) supply money at a price (the rate of interest), and lenders buy money for that price, and the interaction between supply and demand sets the price. Debt now exists, but in the model world total debt is less than the amount of money.
If this market produces too much money (which it can do in a fractional banking system because the government determines the supply of base money and the reserve requirement) then there can be inflation of the money prices of commodities. Equally if the money market suddenly contracts, then there can be deflation. It’s fairly easy to situate Bernanke’s dramatic increase in Base Money within this view of the world.
If only it were the world in which we live. Instead, we live in a credit economy, in which intrinsically useless pieces of paper—or even simple transfers of electronic records of numbers—are happily accepted in return for real, hard commodities. This in itself is not incompatible with a fractional banking model, but the empirical data tells us that credit money is created independently of fiat money: credit money rules the roost. So our fundamental understanding of a monetary economy should proceed from a model in which credit is intrinsic, and government money is tacked on later—and not the other way round.
Our starting point for analysing the economy should therefore be a “pure credit” economy, in which there are privately issued bank notes, but no government sector and no fiat money. Yet this has to be an economy in which intrinsically useless items are accepted as payment for intrinsically useful ones—you can’t eat a bank note, but you can eat a pig.
So how can that be done without corrupting the entire system. Someone has to have the right to produce the bank notes; how can this system be the basis of exchange, without the person who has that right abusing it?
Graziani (and others in the “Circuitist” tradition) reasoned that this would only be possible if the producer of bank notes—or the keeper of the electronic records of money—could not simply print them whenever he/she wanted a commodity, and go and buy that commodity with them. But at the same time, people involved in ordinary commerce had to accept the transfer of these intrinsically useless things in return for commodities.
“Therefore for a system of credit money to work, three conditions had to be fulfilled:
In order for money to exist, three basic conditions must be met:
a) money has to be a token currency (otherwise it would give rise to barter and not to monetary exchanges);
b) money has to be accepted as a means of final settlement of the transaction (otherwise it would be credit and not money);
c) money must not grant privileges of seignorage to any agent making a payment.” [11]
In Graziani’s words, “The only way to satisfy those three conditions is …:
“to have payments made by means of promises of a third agent, the typical third agent being nowadays. When an agent makes a payment by means of a cheque, he satisfies his partner by the promise of the bank to pay the amount due.
Once the payment is made, no debt and credit relationships are left between the two agents. But one of them is now a creditor of the bank, while the second is a debtor of the same bank. This insures that, in spite of making final payments by means of paper money, agents are not granted any kind of privilege.
For this to be true, any monetary payment must therefore be a triangular transaction, involving at least three agents, the payer, the payee, and the bank.” ( p. 3).
Thus in a credit economy, all transactions are involve one commodity, and three parties: a seller, a buyer, and a bank whose transfer of money from the buyer’s account to the seller’s is accepted by them as finalising the sale of the commodity. So the actual pattern in any transaction in a credit money economy is as shown below:

This makes banks and money an essential feature of a credit economy, not something that can be initially ignored and incorporated later, as neoclassical economics has attempted to do (unsuccessfully; one of the hardest things for a neoclassical mathematical modeller is to explain why money exists, apart from the search advantages noted above. Generally therefore their models omit money—and debt—completely).
It also defines what a bank is: it is a third party whose record-keeping is trusted by all parties as recording the transfers of credit money that effect sales of commodities. The bank makes a legitimate living by lending money to other agents—thus simultaneously creating loans and deposits—and charging a higher rate of interest on loans than on deposits.
Thus in a fundamental way, a bank is a bank because it is trusted. Of course, as we know from our current bitter experience, banks can damage that trust; but it remains the wellspring from which their existence arises.
This model helped distinguish the realistic model of endogenous money from the unrealistic neoclassical vision of a barter economy. It also makes it possible to explain what a credit crunch is, and why it has such a devastating impact upon economic activity.
First, the basics: how does a pure credit economy work, and how is money created in one? (The rest of this post necessarily gets technical and is there for those who want detailed background. It reports new research into the dynamics of a credit economy. There’s nothing here anywhere near as poetic as Marx’s “Cavaliers of Credit”, but I hope it explains how a credit economy works, and how it can go badly wrong in a “credit crunch”)
How the Cavaliers “Make Money”
Several economists—notably Wicksell and Keynes—envisaged a “pure credit economy”. Keynes imagined a world in which “investment is proceeding at a steady rate”, in which case:
“the finance (or the commitments to finance) required can be supplied from a revolving fund of a more or less constant amount, one entrepreneur having his finance replenished for the purpose of a projected investment as another exhausts his on paying for his completed investment.” [12]
This is the starting point to understanding a pure credit economy—and therefore to understanding our current economy and why it’s in a bind. Consider an economy with three sectors: firms that produce goods, banks that charge and pay interest, and households that supply workers. Firms are the only entities that borrow, and the banking sector gave loans at some stage in the past to start production. Firms hired workers with this money (and bought inputs from each other), enabling production, and ultimately the economy settled down to a constant turnover of money and goods (as yet there is no technological change, population growth, or wage bargaining).
There are four types of accounts: Firms’ Loans, Firms’ Deposits, Banks’ Deposits, and Households Deposits. These financial flows are described by the following table. I’m eschewing mathematical symbols and just using letters here to avoid the “MEGO” effect (“My Eyes Glaze Over”)—if you want to check out the equations, see this paper:
1. Interest accrues on the outstanding loans.
2. Firms pay interest on the loans. This is how the banks make money, and it involves a transfer of money from the firms deposit accounts to the banks. The banks then have to acknowledge this payment of interest by recording it against the outstanding debt firms owe them.
3. Banks pay interest to firms on the balances in their deposit accounts. This involves a transfer from Bank Deposit accounts to Firms; this is a cost of business to banks, but they make money this way because (a) the rate of interest on loans is higher than that on deposits and (b) as is shown later, the volume of loans outstanding exceeds the deposits that banks have to pay interest on;
4. Firms pay wages to workers; this is a transfer from the firms deposits to the households.
5. Banks pay interest to households on the balances in their deposit accounts.
6. Banks and households pay money to firms in order to purchase some of the output from factories for consumption and intermediate goods.

This financial activity allows production to take place:
1. Workers are hired and paid a wage;
2. They produce output in factories at a constant level of productivity;
3. The output is then sold to other firms, banks and households;
4. The price level is set so that in equilibrium the flow of demand equals the flow of output
The graphs below show the outcome of a simulation of this system, which show that a pure credit economy can work: firms can borrow money, make a profit and pay it back, and a single “revolving fund of finance”, as Keynes put it, can maintain a set level of economic activity. [13]
These stable accounts support a flow of economic activity in time, giving firms, households and banks steady incomes:


Output and employment also tick over at a constant level:

That’s the absolutely basic picture; to get closer to our current reality, a lot more needs to be added. The next model includes, in addition to the basic system shown above:
1. Repayment of debt, which involves a transfer from the Firms’ deposit account to an account that wasn’t shown in the previous model that records Banks unlent reserves; this transfer of money has to be acknowledged by the banks by a matching reduction in the recorded level of debt;
2. Relending from unlent reserves. This involves a transfer of money, against which an equivalent increase in debt is recorded;
3. The extension of new loans to the firm sector by the banks. The firms sector’s deposits are increased, and simultaneously the recorded level of debt is increased by the same amount.
4. Investment of part of bank profits by a transfer from the banking sector’s deposit accounts to the unlent reserves.
5. Variable wages, growing labour productivity and a growing population.
The financial table for this system is:

As with the previous model, this toy economy “works”—it is possible for firms to borrow money, make a profit, and repay their debt.
With the additional elements of debt repayment and the creation of new money, this model also lets us see what happens to bank income when these parameters change.

Though in some ways the answers are obvious, it lets us see why banks are truly cavalier with credit. The conclusions are that bank income is bigger:
- If the rate of money creation is higher (this is by far the most important factor);
- If the rate of circulation of unlent reserves is higher; and
- If the rate of debt repayment is lower—which is why, in “normal” financial circumstances, banks are quite happy not to have debt repaid.
In some ways these conclusions are unremarkable: banks make money by extending debt, and the more they create, the more they are likely to earn. But this is a revolutionary conclusion when compared to standard thinking about banks and debt, because the money multiplier model implies that, whatever banks might want to do, they are constrained from so doing by a money creation process that they do not control.
However, in the real world, they do control the creation of credit. Given their proclivity to lend as much as is possible, the only real constraint on bank lending is the public’s willingness to go into debt. In the model economy shown here, that willingness directly relates to the perceived possibilities for profitable investment—and since these are limited, so also is the uptake of debt.
But in the real world—and in my models of Minsky’s Financial Instability Hypothesis—there is an additional reason why the public will take on debt: the perception of possibilities for private gain from leveraged speculation on asset prices.
That clearly is what has happened in the world’s recent economic history, as it happened previously in the runup to the Great Depression and numerous financial crises beforehand. In its aftermath, we are now experiencing a “credit crunch”—a sudden reversal with the cavaliers going from being willing to lend to virtually anyone with a pulse, to refusing credit even to those with solid financial histories.
I introduce a “credit crunch” into this model by changing those same key key financial parameters at the 30 year mark, but decreasing them rather than increasing them. Firms go from having a 20 year horizon for debt repayment to a 6.4 year horizon, banks go from increasing the money supply at 10% per annum to 3.2% per annum, while the rate of circulation of unlent reserves drops by 68%.
There is much more to our current crisis than this—in particular, this model omits “Ponzi lending” that finances gambling on asset prices rather than productive investment, and the resulting accumulation of debt compared to GDP—but this level of change in financial parameters alone is sufficient to cause a simulated crisis equivalent to the Great Depression. Its behaviour reproduces much of what we’re witnessing now: there is a sudden blowout in unlent reserves, and a decline in the nominal level of debt and in the amount of money circulating in the economy.

This is the real world phenomenon that Bernanke is now railing against with his increases in Base Money, and already the widespread lament amongst policy makers is that banks are not lending out this additional money, but simply building up their reserves.
Tough: in a credit economy, that’s what banks do after a financial crisis—it’s what they did during the Great Depression. This credit-economy phenomenon is the real reason that the money supply dropped during the Depression: it wasn’t due to “bad Federal Reserve policy” as Bernanke himself has opined, but due to the fact that we live in a credit money world, and not the fiat money figment of neoclassical imagination.
The impact of the simulated credit crunch on my toy economy’s real variables is similar to that of the Great Depression: real output slumps severely, as does employment.

The nominal value of output also falls, because prices also fall along with real output.

This fall in prices is driven by a switch from a regime of growing demand to one of shrinking demand. Rather than there being a continuous slight imbalance in demand’s favour, the imbalance shifts in favour of supply—and prices continue falling even though output eventually starts to rise.

The unemployment rate explodes rapidly from full employment to 25 percent of the workforce being out of a job—and then begins a slow recovery.

Finally, wages behave in a perverse fashion, just as Keynes argued during the Great Depression: nominal wages fall, but real wages rise because the fall in prices outruns the fall in wages.

This combination of falling prices and falling output means that despite the fall in nominal debts, the ratio of debt to nominal output actually rises—again, as happened for the first few years of the Great Depression.

Though this model is still simple compared to the economy in which we live, it’s a lot closer to our actual economy than the models developed by conventional “neoclassical” economists, which ignore money and debt, and presume that the economy will always converge to a “NAIRU”[14] equilibrium after any shock.
It also shows the importance of the nominal money stock, something that neoclassical economists completely ignore. To quote Milton Friedman on this point:
“It is a commonplace of monetary theory that nothing is so unimportant as the quantity of money expressed in terms of the nominal monetary unit—dollars, or pounds, or pesos… Let the number of dollars in existence be multiplied by 100; that, too, will have no other essential effect, provided that all other nominal magnitudes (prices of goods and services, and quantities of other assets and liabilities that are expressed in nominal terms) are also multiplied by 100.” [15]
The madness in Friedman’s argument is the assumption that increasing the money supply by a factor of 100 will also cause “all other nominal magnitudes” including commodity prices and debts to be multiplied by the same factor.
Whatever might be the impact on prices of increasing the money supply by a factor of 100, the nominal value of debt would remain constant: debt contracts don’t give banks the right to increase your outstanding level of debt just because prices have changed. Movements in the nominal prices of goods and services aren’t perfectly mirrored by changes in the level of nominal debts, and this is why nominal magnitudes can’t be ignored.
In this model I have developed, money and its rate of circulation matter because they determine the level of nominal and real demand. It is a “New Monetarism” model, in which money is crucial.
Ironically, Milton Friedman argued that money was crucial in his interpretation of the Great Depression—that the failure of the Federal Reserve to sufficiently increase the money supply allowed deflation to occur. But he a trivial “helicopter” model of money creation that saw all money as originating from the operations of the Federal Reserve:
“Let us suppose now that one day a helicopter flies over this community and drops an additional $1,000 in bills from the sky, which is, of course, hastily collected by members of the community. Let us suppose further that everyone is convinced that this is a unique event which will never be repeated… [16]
When the helicopter starts dropping money in a steady stream— or, more generally, when the quantity of money starts unexpectedly to rise more rapidly— it takes time for people to catch on to what is happening. Initially, they let actual balances exceed long— run desired balances…” (p. 13)
and a trivial model of the real economy that argued that it always tended back to equilibrium:
“Let us start with a stationary society in which … (5) The society, though stationary, is not static. Aggregates are constant, but individuals are subject to uncertainty and change. Even the aggregates may change in a stochastic way, provided the mean values do not… Let us suppose that these conditions have been in existence long enough for the society to have reached a state of equilibrium…” (pp. 2-3)
One natural question to ask about this final situation is, “ What raises the price level, if at all points markets are cleared and real magnitudes are stable?” The answer is, “ Because everyone confidently anticipates that prices will rise.” (p. 10)
Using this simplistic analysis, Milton Friedman claimed that inflation was caused by “too many helicopters” and deflation by “too few”, and that the deflation that amplified the downturn in the 1930s could have been prevented if only the Fed had sent more helicopters into the fray:
“different and feasible actions by the monetary authorities could have prevented the decline in the money stock—indeed, produced almost any desired increase in the money stock. The same actions would also have eased the banking difficulties appreciably. Prevention or moderation of the decline in the stock of money, let alone the substitution of monetary expansion, would have reduced the contraction’s severity and almost as certainly its duration.” [17]
With a sensible model of how money is endogenously created by the financial system, it is possible to concur that a decline in money contributed to the severity of the Great Depression, but not to blame that on the Federal Reserve not properly exercising its effectively impotent powers of fiat money creation. Instead, the decline was due to the normal operations of a credit money system during a financial crisis that its own reckless lending has caused—the Cavaliers are cowards who rush into a battle they are winning, and retreat at haste in defeat.
However, with his belief in Friedman’s analysis, Bernanke did blame his 1930 predecessors for causing the Great Depression. In his paean to Milton Friedman on the occasion of his 90th birthday, Bernanke made the following remark:
“Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You’re right, we did it. We’re very sorry. But thanks to you, we won’t do it again.” [18]
In fact, thanks to Milton Friedman and neoclassical economics in general, the Fed ignored the run up of debt that has caused this crisis, and every rescue engineered by the Fed simply increased the height of the precipice from which the eventual fall into Depression would occur.
Having failed to understand the mechanism of money creation in a credit money world, and failed to understand how that mechanism goes into reverse during a financial crisis, neoclassical economics may end up doing what by accident what Marx failed to achieve by deliberate action, and bring capitalism to its knees.
Neoclassical economics—and especially that derived from Milton Friedman’s pen—is mad, bad, and dangerous to know.

Debtwatch Statistics February 2009
My discussion of the most recent monthly data is abbreviated given the length of this Report, but it now appears that the debt bubble has started to burst. Private debt fell by $A$5 billion in the last month, the first fall since 2003, and the steepest monthly fall on record.

As a result, Australia’s Debt to GDP ratio has started to fall.

However, it might rise once more if deflation takes hold. This was the Depression experience when the debt to GDP ratio rose even as nominal debt levels fell. Leaving that possibility aside for the moment, it appears that Australia’s peak private debt to GDP ratio occurred in March 2008, with a ratio of 177% of GDP including business securities (or 165% excluding business securities).


[1] Marx, Capital Volume III, Chapter 33, The medium of circulation in the credit system, pp. 544-45 [Progress Press]. http://www.marx.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch33.htm. Emphases added.
[2] Notably the “labour theory of value”, which argues erroneously that all profit comes from labour, the notion that the rate of profit has a tendency to fall, and the alleged inevitability of the demise of capitalism; see my papers on these issues on the Research page of my blog under Marx.
[3] Kydland & Prescott, Business Cycles: Real Facts and a Monetary Myth, Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis Quarterly Review, Spring 1990.
[4] “The Endogenous Money Stock”, Journal of Post Keynesian Economics, 1979, Volume 2, pp. 49-70.
[5] Basil Moore 1983, “Unpacking the post Keynesian black box: bank lending and the money supply”, Journal of Post Keynesian Economics 1983, Vol. 4 pp. 537-556; here Moore was quoting a Federal Reserve economist from a 1969 conference in which the endogeneity of the money supply was being debated.
[6] This policy “worked” in the sense that Central Banks were successful in controlling short run interest rates, and appeared to work in controlling inflation; but it is now becoming obvious that its success on the latter front was a coincidence—the era of low inflation coincided with the dramatic impact of China and offshore manufacturing in general on consumer and producer prices—and it led to Central Banks completely ignoring the debt bubble that has caused the global financial crisis. As a result, interest rate targetting is also going the way of the Dodo now.
[7] see Table 10 in Yueh-Yun C. OBrien, 2007. “Reserve Requirement Systems in OECD Countries” , Finance and Economics Discussion Series, Divisions of Research & Statistics and Monetary A¤airs, Federal Reserve Board, 2007-54, Washington, D.C;. The US rule implies that the main reason for the “reserve requirement” these days is to meet household demand for cash.
[8] Bernanke 2002: Remarks by Governor Ben S. Bernanke Before the National Economists Club, Washington, D.C., November 21, 2002. Deflation: Making Sure “It” Doesn’t Happen Here. Emphasis added.
[9] “Microsoft resorts to first layoffs, cutting 5,000“, Yahoo Finance January 22nd 2009.
[10] And, for that matter, by Austrian economics, whose analysis of money is surprisingly simplistic. Though Austrians advocate a private money system in which banks would issue their own currency, they assume that under the current money system, all money is generated by fractional reserve lending on top of fiat money creation. This is strange, since if they advocate a private money system, they need a model of how banks could create money without fractional reserve lending. But they don’t have one.
[11] Graziani A. (1989). The Theory of the Monetary Circuit, Thames Papers in Political Economy, Sprin, pp.:1-26. Reprinted in M. Musella and C. Panico (eds) (1995). The Money Supply in the Economic Process, Edward Elgar, Aldershot.
[12] Keynes 1937, “ Alternative theories of the rate of interest” , Economic Journal, Vol. 47, pp. 241-252: p. 247
[13] The parameters were an initial loan of $100, loan rate of interest of 5%, deposit rate of 1%, 3 month lag between financing production and receiving the sales proceeds, 1/3rd of the surplus from production going to firms as profits and the remainder to workers as wages, a one year lag in price adjustments, a money wage of $1, worker productivity of 1.1 units of physical output per worker per year, and a one year lag in spending by bankers and a two week lag by workers.
[14] “Non-Accelerating Inflation Rate of Unemployment”, another one of Milton’s mythical constants.
[15] Milton Friedman 1969, “The Optimal Quantity of Money”, in The Optimal Quantity of Money and Other Essays, Macmillan, Chicago, p. 1.
[16] Milton Friedman 1969, pp. 5-6
[17] Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz 1963, A Monetary History of the United States 1867-1960, Princeton University Press, Princeton, p. 301.
[18] Remarks by Governor Ben S. Bernanke At the Conference to Honor Milton Friedman, University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois November 8, 2002 On Milton Friedman’s Ninetieth Birthday.






January 31st, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Hi Steve,
In today SMH Kevin Rudd had taken a jab at the neos stating they have wrecked the economic system for the last 30 years and we need an alternatively. Putin, seems to have come out on similar lines. So why is Kevin Rudd continuing to do rubbish? Hand out 10billion and now throwing money at the commercial property maket? Why cant he take a loan from the IMF and go into deficit for massive infrastructure projects that we clearly need? Just like the Sydeny Harbour bridge. Steve what is your views about free market system, outsourcing etc. Do you agree with it? I would like your perspective of it on the local economy.
My other question was regarding Chris Joy..have you read his latest blogs about House prices and japans lost decade on the spectator? What do you think about his data, hedonic measures and analysis?. He seems to be to the only person on the spectator that has missed the bus and he quotes you as being quite inaccurate with your take on things.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Hi Steve. This is a great article but I’ll need some time to digest it. No doubt you are aware that the PM has published his criticism of the neo-liberal agenda in ‘The Monthly’. I notice he makes mention that the ‘Emperor has no Clothes’….Perhaps he has been reading your work?
January 31st, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Thanks very much Steve. You have articulated yourself very well , so that even inarticulate economics plebs like me can comprehend.
But, the implications are sobering. In speaking about the US , clearly, printing new money at current rates (in the face of this implosion of debt) will not displace the money being destroyed by the rate at which asset values are collapsing. Considering the damage thus far inflicted and known to come , US Banks therefore are already insolvent by that metric alone. So, rather than the US Banking system operating on an accountable reserves system and openly valued assets, deposits etc , it is now operating by a herd consensus…… to keep up the faith? By virtue of what…. the US denominated scrip being so widely held – Treasuries, bonds, currency etc? The “Reserve” status?
This is the glue that keeps much of the worlds banking systems functioning everyday?
And should that faith crumble? If faith erodes and decays or collapses in the ability of particularly the US and her Banks to redeem themselves from this almighty debt burden, by what means will all the billions of global transactions you outline above take place – absent the banks that facilitate the process? The only way I see to secure the global financial system is for the critical failed parts to be nationalized. Period.
That is if we ever expect commerce to recover. It wouldn’t be the same , it won’t be even pretty and it won’t operate the same way, but it will be there. It seems to me that we are experimenting with untested and unknown “neo classical” solutions, while global financial collapse is a clear and present danger.
Steve, am I on the right train of thought here? If so, I’m confused then by your opinion of another (and rather long served) store of wealth- gold.
January 31st, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Hi Steve,
It appears talk of debt deflation is getting more and more main stream coverage. The latest I’ve come across is an interview of a Dr Lacy Hunt at the “Buisiness Spectator” http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Lacy-Hunt-$pd20090129-NR997?OpenDocument.o
In this interview he states that debt markets could take 15- 20 years to normalise.
Do you think you views and data are getting any more attention by the likes of the RBA, Treasury or Gov…etc?
What are your thoughts on the best action that the Australian Government should take to minimise the impact of this debt deflation going forward? If e.g. debt forgiveness -what about the consequence for those who didn’t leverage excessively? Won’t this cause a sort of “moral hazard”?
Have you thought of posting ideas for “remedial action”, perhaps separating it into different sections eg for government action and households.
Cheers and thanks for a great blog.
Costa
January 31st, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Hi Steve
Not being very savvy in the economics area I’m really pleased that I understand your latest DebtWatch. (I must admit to having a little lie down in the middle of it – but that was only to digest what I’d already read, and not any MEGO effect!) You’ve explained everything so clearly.
As Joshua and Clive point out it seems that Rudd is on the same track. Like Joshua I’m perplexed by the Government continuing down the same path as the US when it seems a pointless exercise? Is it because we, the public expect them to look like they’re doing SOMETHING? Or as Al49er in a previous blog pointed out that perhaps when they say they are acting decisively the emphasis is really on the word ACTING?
January 31st, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Hi Steve,
Very nice piece, Steve, one of your clearest and best. Now I understand where you are coming from.
Do you think it was always thus, or was Marx simply being prescient in noticing that the usurers (aka The Roving Cavaliers of Credit) were beginning their takeover of capitalist society only at that time? Certainly the founding fathers in America appeared to be very aware of this danger.
January 31st, 2009 at 4:47 pm
hi icon, re china and dollar,
take your point,
but, what happened between 1913 and 1949, not too many slow news days.
1913 england still a net creditor and an empire, the US on the way to taking over from england as the worlds largest creditor and stitching us up with dollar hegemony at bretton woods. a transition of power from great britain to america.
lets see we had 2 world wars, a couple of revolutions, a depression, a blood bath in india, a few civil wars to name just a few, between 1913 and 1949.
and this was a transition between 2 powers that had many similarities and traditions. the US inherited alot of its traditions from great britain.
time is cyclical, history is cyclical, what goes around comes around. perhaps youd like to point out a power transition thats been peacefull.
this transition has the potential to be much more dangerous due to the existing prejudices that exist between the west and the east.
your right nothings totally gauranteed in life. who knows a comet might hit china.
lets make a friendly wager. if you and i are still around by 2050 we will see who the biggest and meanest gorilla on the planet is china or the US.
re gold. gold is about psychology not practicality. it probably doesnt make sense to have any but you do , especially in a volatile envioronment. the reason why we have volatility is that market analysts are clutching at straws as far predicting the future earnings of anything. infact in such a environment you would expect gold to be volatile as well but never reaching new lows. most of us i think still have nagging doubts as to whether or not we will be able to get our money out of the bank. the smartmoney is thinking its good to have lots of US dollars and a little gold just in case total financial meltdown decides to pull up a chair.
dont forget we are dealing with unprecedented historical circumstances as far as this economic crisis is concerned, atleast in our collective memory. i am betting that we will have to deal with one unprecedented event after another over the next 30 years, all centred around the US’s attempts to enforce dollar hegemony and its position in the world as a super power. you are right, the dollar will be king as long as the americans can enforce it, but within the next 30years the chinese will probably have deep enough financial pockets to jetison the US and challenge dollar hegemony.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Hi Steve,
I have been really enjoying the debate on this blog lately. But after reading your latest Debtwatch Report. I realised how much I have missed them over the Christmas period. I know you do this because you are passionate, but a big thanks anyway. The reports is what drew me to the site in the first place.
The basic theory behind the endogenous nature of the creation of money sits so well with me. During my career in banking I have always been aware of the demands of the borrowers driving the banks and the system to supply what they wanted.
For most of my working life I witnessed the bullish side of that (I saw a turn develop in Dec ’07). What I have come to understand is that just as sentiment drives the system on the way up. It also drives the system on the way down.
Extreme bullishness drove the credit system to such a silly extreme in Australia, the way back the other way will be catastrophic.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:59 pm
I’ve been reading books about the Australian economy in the late 19th century. Basically you had the introduction of non-bank financial institutions which were willing to lend more money than the banks. The banks competed and this created a property bubble. Excessive consumerism was encouraged in particular by a scheme called ‘time-payment’ where consumers could get goods furniture now, and then make repayments over time at a later date. Workforce was also transformed with outsourcing and the young were job-hopping in the attempt to gain skills to learn a trade.
Economic historian Noel George Butlin wrote a book called “Investment in Australian Economic Development 1861-1900 (1964).
Page 424 – “The decline which occurred was essentially due to reduced demand for funds, reflecting a growing unwillingness on the part of investors to sustain the rate of residential investment. In the three eastern mainland colonies, there was one common element: the decline of speculative investment in housing. In varying degrees, with some important contrasts between the colonies, investment by landlords and owner occupiers was also effected”.
Page 425 -“The contraction of 1889 derived from a fall in demand for, and not in the supply of investible funds. For the main institutional investor, the speculative builder, the real difficulties emerging by the end of 1888 were two. First, in N.S.W. and Victoria, building had been carried on far in advance of population growth. In N.S.W., for example, the number of dwellings rose between 1881 and 1891 by 68 %, while population had grown by 50 %. In Victoria the contrast was even more obvious. But there were, in N.S.W., in 189l, 16,166 dwellings vacant-7 % of the total. The number of vacant houses in Victoria, 15,846, was almost identical. Only in Queensland and South Australia were vacancies at a moderate level.”
From my readings I have concluded that the issue is not with the supply of money, but the demand of it. The initial stage of the fallout is primarly the speculators. The course of deflation is in play. For any softening of deflation money needs to be released via wages/social security.
Other interesting snippets
Page 427 – “Steeply rising vacancy rates, due to speculative building, made it impossible to sustain the rapidly rising level of rents”.
The statistics I have indicates that indexed rental prices fell 27% in 1891, and then a further 21.3% between 1892 and 1897.
And from Graeme Davison’s “The Rise and Fall of Marvellous Melbourne” (1978):
Page 186 – “Meanwhile, under the combined impact of hardship, financial uncertainty and declining real estate values, borrowers began to default with their repayments. At first the building societies waived their right to recover fines for non-payment and simply added them to the principal. But as time went on, indulgence became impossible and default more widespread. By the end of 1893 J. W. Hunt, manager of the Modern Permanent Building Society, had to report to his British agents, we have now rather more than half of our borrowers unable to keep up their fortnightly repayments. Out of this number, that is, those unable to keep up their repayments, about 60 or 65% are unable to pay even interest.
Many properties depreciated so much that their value fell far short of the purchaser’s debt, while rents, which had declined to ‘almost nominal amounts’, were far less than weekly instalments. By mid-1894 the Modern Permanent had taken possession of nearly half its loans, and repayments had been suspended and interest alone was being paid on half the rest. Hunt confessed:
What I feared has actually come to pass and large numbers have thrown up their houses simply because of the terrible depreciation in values … The working men are asking themselves why they should continue to pay a society 12/6 or 15/ – a week when their houses are not now worth as much as they owe, and they can rent others next door at 2/ – or 3/ – a week.”
January 31st, 2009 at 6:40 pm
Steve
This may be a little off topic, but i was wanting to let you know that if you wanted to do any media interviews, that especially now in February and perhaps March would be the perfect time to get your message across.
We are now heading into wave 3 down of Primary wave 1, of wave C down.This will bring alot of the bears out and your predictions will be backed up with what is happening in the markets and the real economy.The stock markets will all be making new lows in the next 2 months.
The most pessimism will be felt in the next 2 months and then we will go up for several months and we will see optimism return until we make new lows from August, September and November.
Take advantage of the upcoming market conditions that will be working in your favour and add credence to your views.
January 31st, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Quote from article : “If the money multiplier model of money creation were correct, then ultimately this would lead to a dramatic growth in the money supply as an additional US$7 trillion of credit money was gradually created.”
Not necessarily. The banks might not be willing to lend new reserves at all, or at least they might only be willing to lend to prime clients, allowing the remainder of credit to dry up either by default or by repayment. The result could still be credit contraction and an increase in the price of government notes.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Corydora…
As you noted from Butlin, but today in Victoria it’s slightly worse so the outcome should be relatively similar.
ABS Statistics 2006: Victoria
Population 4,932,422
Total dwellings 2,085,113
Occupied dwellings 1,869,348
Unoccupied dwellings 215,729 = 10.35%
Page 425 -“The contraction of 1889 derived from a fall in demand for, and not in the supply of investible funds. For the main institutional investor, the speculative builder, the real difficulties emerging by the end of 1888 were two. First, in N.S.W. and Victoria, building had been carried on far in advance of population growth. In N.S.W., for example, the number of dwellings rose between 1881 and 1891 by 68 %, while population had grown by 50 %. In Victoria the contrast was even more obvious. But there were, in N.S.W., in 189l, 16,166 dwellings vacant-7 % of the total. The number of vacant houses in Victoria, 15,846, was almost identical. Only in Queensland and South Australia were vacancies at a moderate level.”
February 1st, 2009 at 9:38 am
That was precisely my point Frank.
February 1st, 2009 at 10:18 am
Steve – great post, thanks!
One concept I’ve been struggling to find an answer to is the role of bond issuance versus credit money creation through banks.
1. Do the debt measures you discuss (e.g., the oft cited ~300% US private-debt-to-GDP ratio) include debt that results from bond issuance?
2. Do bond issues (corporate, treasury, municipal) create new money through the mechanism you discuss? (I had assumed no and that they must be 100% funded at time of issuance, but perhaps that is incorrect).
3. If the answer to #1 is yes and #2 is no, then couldn’t that partially explain why the ratio of debt to money stock is so much higher than the theoretical prediction based on reserve ratio?
But whether or not bond issuance has contributed to the ponzi effect of asset appreciation, it does seem clear that the added debt servicing burden of bonds on top of bank loans contributes to the unsustainability of the mix…
February 1st, 2009 at 11:34 am
More on credit creation. Deposits or loans first?
In the real world banks lend to each other all the time. Those loans also form deposits at the receiving bank. So when a bank has huge demand from customers one month and they lend over their reserves, they just contact another bank and arrange a loan from them to boost reserves Easy!!! Bank do this for and to each other every day.
A Banks primary function is to lend money. They employ thousands of bankers to sell the loans. When it comes to raising deposits. If needs be this can be done by a few guys in their treasury department. The reason banks chase retail deposits is that they are cheaper. Another reason is when the interbank lending market dries up. As happened in September, Oct and Nov ’08.
I’m convinced in practice that banks lend first and worry about reserves later.
Furthermore, the rise and rise of securitisation has allowed banks to “lend off balance sheet”. This is another way to say “lend without reserves”. The rise of securitisation in Australia has been exponential in the last 15 years. This means that the real reserve ratio is much lower than the 8% required in Oz.
February 1st, 2009 at 11:46 am
I really enjoyed the post thanks Steve. A few points come to mind though.
- The US government contributed to the expansion of credit money by promoting mortgage lending to low income households. I wonder where we would be now if they had not interfered with the credit money market?
- Your headline unemployment figure may be overstated, as it does not model people leaving the workforce. That doesn’t affect your results, of course, as you are modelling employment rather than unemployment. But you might be frightening people a bit more than you need to.
- Governments can participate in the credit money economy by nationalising banks, which they seem to be doing around the world now. However, that leaves an open questions about whether they will use nationalised banks for economic management, and whether increased supply of credit money would be frustrated by demand deficiency (ie. nobody will want to borrow, even if government owned banks make the credit available.)
Do you have any views on that last point?
February 1st, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Your last point is highly likely, but in the financial system that we need after this is over–as opposed to the one we’ve got now–I’d prefer to see lending overwhelmingly focused on working capital and genuine investment needs of firms, rather than speculative home and share purchases.
On your first point, yes you’re right, but I see this more in the light of an irresponsible mate encouraging a drunk driver to drive faster, rather than seeing it as the root cause. As I elucidate in the model, the financial system has an inherent bias to oversupply credit; governments added to that by falling for schemes like the subprime scam, and also be the rescues of Wall Street of which Greenspan and Bernanke were once so proud. But bubbles in asset markets and debt would have occurred anyway: governments have “merely” made them twice as bad as they otherwise would have been.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Spot on BullTurnedBear: the mechanisms behind this are so simple it beggars belief that neoclassical economists have managed not to see them.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:08 pm
1. The original 165% of GDP figure for Australia didn’t include bond issuance; the new 177% figure does. The USA figures always incorporated them.
2. They don’t create new money, but they do create new debt. This is part of why debt is several times the size of money. It’s something I model by introducing non-banks into my system.
So you got it right on both counts, and of course your deduction follows too.
February 1st, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Steve,
What is going to happen to all this debt, will the piper be paid, who will pay him? or in other words, what happens next?
The way i see it, the inevitable stimulus eventually ends up in the hands of those with debt, who by this time are scared stiff, and use it to pay down debt. Thereby requiring even more stimulus to turn over the economy, resulting in more debt, but displaced.
Perhaps too big a topic for the comments section.
Also you’ve thrown out my model of what will happen to gold and the interaction of currencies in all this.
And a massive thankyou for your efforts on this site, it’s content is unique.
February 1st, 2009 at 10:54 pm
Thanks for the post, Steve. Excellent. I have 2 questions though.
1. Assuming the printing of money is ineffective, will it have any other negative impacts other than not working? I gather it will make it much harder to control credit when things get going…
2. Would I be right in saying that government stimulus packages will be largely ineffective (given the debt collapse will over-ride their conventional controls)? It would appear to me that if we didn’t do this we would have a solvent government during the hard times ahead. If the Australian Government keeps going we will have a broke destitute government like all it’s citizens!
February 2nd, 2009 at 12:09 am
Steve – thanks for the answers.
While your overall argument regarding credit money creation leading fiat money creation still makes sense, I think that without quantification of non-banks, the discussion around your graph of “USA Ratios of Debt to Money Stock Measures” seems slightly misleading in the context of comparisons to the money multiplier model.
Do you know the size of the bond market contribution to US debt? It looks to me like the US bond market was $25 trillion in 2006 — so I’m guessing closer to $30 trillion by 2008? With total US debt around 355% GDP or $50 trillion including government, that leaves roughly $20 trillion of credit money and $0.8 to 2 trillion of base money. So $20 trillion credit compared to an M3 of maybe $14 trillion isn’t as far off as your graph suggests — and wasn’t M3 discontinued in part due to the claim it couldn’t be measured easily? Let me know if I’ve got this wrong — either the data or my conclusions.
On a closely related topic… The total debt-to-GDP graphs are ominous, but I’ve wondered what the mix of bond market borrowing versus bank credit was. It seems like while bond-issued debt could create just as much fragile balance sheet leverage as bank issued credit, in a debt deflation wouldn’t default or repayment of bonds be less destructive systemically than default or repayment of bank credit, given that it is credit destruction that contracts the broad money supply and more directly impacts asset prices? Do Irving Fisher’s theories cover this distinction? If you’ve analyzed the relevance of this ratio in the past, I missed it.
February 2nd, 2009 at 1:14 am
Hey Steve,
Comprehensive report! My goodness…
If you have the time, an Austrian school perspective on the issues you covered regarding the money supply in the first quarter of your report: http://www.lewrockwell.com/rozeff/rozeff264.html. It’s definitely not as in-depth, but you may find it interesting.
My concern in all of this is that on the foreign exchange market, after the bursting of the US bond bubble, there will be dramatic run on the US dollar and a sharp increase in interest rates. My concern is that in order to satisfy bond redemptions, the US will eventually have to print dollars to cover it… which will lead to the run on the dollar (as everyone exchanges dollars for their native currency on masse) apart from a large scale loss in confidence of the US dollar because of inflation worries. Thus you may have a near worthless dollar driving up consumer prices, stemming from the dollar run, rather than price inflation from ‘too much money printed chasing too few goods’.
Does that make sense and is that a possibility in your estimation?
February 2nd, 2009 at 1:55 am
A good summary of the situation, but I would add some extra rather important details…
There was a step change across the orld in 1995-6 as the Bank of Japanstarted flooding the global financial system with zero interest rate yen
loans.
There was another step change in 1995-1996 as the USA effectively
abolished capital requirements as you mention in passing. This was not just a detail as the mention in passing seems to say; it was a crucial aspect of the credit explosion.
In effect with the near abolition of capital requirements the USA in 1995-6 begun a policy of wildcat banking turning “national champions” like Citi or Goldman or Lehman or Bear into wildcat banks.
As to the general “theory of money”, the idea that IOUs/letters of credit even predate money is not new to say the least, and arguably even fiat money is credit based money. There is an interesting discussion of this here:
http://www.moslereconomics.com/mandatory-readings/what-is-money/
http://www.moslereconomics.com/mandatory-readings/
Overall credit based money works well if wildcat banking is not permitted, and this requires some sort of capital requirements to constrain trhe issuance of credit money. That is the “fractional banking” story that matters; that some of the capital backing the credit money should or not be held in a central bank accounts matters very little.
The whole story revolves around how much credit money the banks are allowed to create to sell to their customers, after the sale of course, and that is capital requirements.
Which is the whole story as to insurance as well: how much capital insurers have to keep as reserve against claims, or else they will do infinite underwriting with the intent to pocket the premiums now and default when the accident happens.
Not for nothing AIG is part of this story along with Lehman: they both ended up selling insurance via derivatives.
Underprovision against future risks is probably the oldest and still most profitable and safest financial scam, and it has made a lot of money to bankers to turn a large part of their business into insurance-like banking, and to insurers to turn a large part of their business into banking-like insurance, and gleefully underprovide in both cases.
The solution in both cases is vigilance, vigilance to be enforced with capital ratios and harsh accounting audits.
The solution in other words is not economic, is politic: the political will to resist wildcat banking and wildcat insurance.
In democracies that will is very difficult to form, if the voters are as corrupted as those they vote for.
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:13 am
«What is going to happen to all this debt, will the piper be paid, who will pay him? or in other words, what happens next?
The way i see it, the inevitable stimulus eventually ends up in the hands of those with debt, who by this time are scared stiff, and use it to pay down debt. Thereby requiring even more stimulus to turn over the economy, resulting in more debt, but displaced.»
Well, you are falling into the trap of using the framing of “Serious Economists” here, and being mislead into looking at symptoms.
One has to look at the big picture instead, and the big picture is amazing easy:
* In the USA, the UK, Oz etc. since 1995-6 a colossal credit bubble has flooded those economies with very cheap credit.
* As a result, in the USA the total nominal value of the housing stock has double from somewhat under $10t to somewhat under $20t, and similarly for the stock market.
* Now those colossal paper capital gains are vanishing. If it was just a case of something going on paper from $10t to $20t and then back to $10t it would be not much to worry.
* Unfortunately a large part of those paper capital gains have been monetized (by selling debt collateralized on them) and spent.
* WINNERS have been those who have made actual cash by selling the assets, or by selling debt related to the capital gains, or the Asian exporters of goods and services to those selling debt guaranteed by the capital gains, politicians who have been reelected thanks to largesse funded by taxes and borrowing fed by those paper capital gains.
* LOSERS have been the buyers of debt collateralized by the paper capital gain, the workers who have lost their jobs to the Asian countries, and anybody who has bought the assets after the capital gains had been realized.
If one looks at things even from a further distance, it is as if America had discovered vast new deposits of “oil” (a paper capital gain), sold them forward/mortgaged them to extract their value now, and then discovered that the “oil” wasn’t really there. Where the “oil” was vastly increased stock PEs, much higher price/median income values for houses, much lower interest rates for government debt.
While inflicting on themselves all the disadvantages that befall any country that discovers a lot of oil, a kind of financial “Dutch disease”: strong currency leading to extensive export of capital and jobs, profligate financial sector, high degree of corruption and income inequality, stagnation of enterprise, ambition to live off rent and not value creation.
The USA, the UK and Oz (and other similar countries) have been ion effect trying to “mine” rich deposits of paper wealth in their own housing, their own retirement accounts, their own businesses, rich deposits that turned out to be illusory.
Unless they are materialized, by runaway inflation of nominal prices.
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:20 am
«mechanisms behind this are so simple it beggars belief that neoclassical economists have managed not to see them.»
This is slanderous
: you don’t know and cannot prove whether they didn’t or did see them.
Whether they saw them or not, they surely did not talk about them, but rather about fictitious ones.
And this gave them rich, rewarding careers, especially in the USA, where the role of Serious Economists is to uphold the central, moral, Truthiness of Economics, that the distribution of income depends solely on merit, on productivity.
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:30 am
«if we didn’t do this we would have a solvent government during the hard times ahead. If the Australian Government keeps going we will have a broke destitute government like all it’s citizens!»
Don’t talk about “all it’s citizens”, as there is a sharp difference between the few winners like the Macquarie people who made a lot of money on the upswing and can retire in comfortable wealth and financial security, and the many losers who got suckered expecting that they could all could live like a pommy rentier in a mansion in a posh (?) Sydney or Melbourne suburb.
It is very sad for a foreigner to see that Ozzies fell for the same delusions as the snobbish english middle classes.
February 2nd, 2009 at 3:17 am
I think this is very interesting. I assume it could be very inflationary if the 10 % increase in the money multiplier during the last few weeks continued to expand, and I assume, the fed still concerned about deflation, were careful to nurture whatever inflation they could get, meaning that they would possibly overshoot in their attempt to keep the debt bubble growing further?
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:01 am
clive said,
in January 31st, 2009 at 12:09 pm Hi Steve. This is a great article but I’ll need some time to digest it. No doubt you are aware that the PM has published his criticism of the neo-liberal agenda in ‘The Monthly’. I notice he makes mention that the ‘Emperor has no Clothes’….Perhaps he has been reading your work?
Let me sum this up for you so that even an incompetent could understand it….
In the normal course of business…some do better and are more successful than others. They have then accumulated a significant amount of wealth right?….It then is only natural that they would seek some kind of “return” on their “capital” we will call this “interest”..because in fact that is what is is. Well….since some will always be more talented than others and will continue to accrue wealth and interest…this grows at a geometric rate right? I mean…isn’t compound interest the 8th wonder of the world?? Now…for all you simpletons out there….I want you to take a look at a globe…that’s right….a globe..map whatever of the entire world…..now ask yourself a question….is the world limited or exponential??? The answer to this question is CRITICAL to a complete understanding of compound interest and an understanding of what is happening to the economy right in front of your eyes. My point is that eventually….those with “savings” and “wealth” will eventually run up against the reality that we live in a limited world. ANYTHING THAT GROWS EXPONENTIALLY WILL EVENTUALLY END. That “exponential” in this case is the payment of “interest” on debt. Why is it so hard for people to understand that compound interest is not a sustainable model, and that eventually…without some kind of debt relief…will destroy the economy…is this rocket science??? Aparently so. No…it’s more like those who understand keep their mouths shut…because they have benefitted from this ponzi scheme and have no desire for this “system” to be revealed to the average person…why would they…this is how they have gained their immense power and wealth. What a pitty that people like MIKE SHEDLOCK and other intellectuals are too cowardly/greedy/incompetent to accnowledge this TRUTH!!!
February 2nd, 2009 at 8:15 am
Hi Drwasho,
I was rather circumspect about the Austrian school in the paper–there’s a footnote but that’s it–but largely I think they have a naive theory of money: the state makes it, so the state causes inflation. Yet they also promote a free banking system–so how would that work? But they don’t have a model of one to answer the question (apart from the usual supply and demand stuff).
My model is of a free banking system, and it points out why that system too would have a proclivity to issue too much money, thus financing asset price booms and setting up crashes and Depressions. The difference with what we have is that, by delaying this process, the Fed has actually made the eventual crash worse–it certainly hasn’t stopped it.
Your conjecture is a possibility, but there is also the prospect of outright default (especially since most of the debt is private). I do ultimately expect a US currency crash, but that could end up with far less trade rather than simply inflation. This is a judgment call rather than a model/theory call, but I expect a persistent slump result rather than a Weimar Republic outcome.
February 2nd, 2009 at 8:19 am
Hi hbl,
There’s only so much I can cover in one report! I’ve built an extension of that model that includes non-bank lending–which creates debt but not money; and it is fairly easy to extend it to have firms issuing bonds–which also creates debt but not money. I included one minor debt/money imbalance mechanism in the model deliberately–the banking sector re-investing part of its profits in its capital base.
Irving’s theory doesn’t cover the debt/bonds distinction, but a firm that is unable to pay its bond commitments goes bankrupt just as does one that can’t meet its bank loan commitments. So the bankruptcy effects are still there, while the contraction of active money supply is not.
February 2nd, 2009 at 8:21 am
Hi juk,
Your expectations of what will happen–throwing fiat money at companies/people in debt, who then use it to repay their debt rather than spending–are very similar to mine.
February 2nd, 2009 at 8:55 am
Hi hbl and Steve,
Most corporate bond purchases are leveraged. That is, purchasers use the bond as security to borrow money so they can get a larger exposure to the bonds.
Therefore, buying bonds does expand the money supply. A sure sign of madness is using debt to buy more debt.
As you have said repeatedly Steve. The World has been caught up in a giant Ponzi scheme.
February 2nd, 2009 at 9:39 am
It seems to me the losses are so huge, that the rating on the US debt kind of decrease when a certain amount of the losses are absorbed by the taxpayers, giving higher long term interest rates, and that this process is what stops the debt deflation to take hold and rather cause a new cycle of boom and bust.
Ultimately if some kind of bad bank or some other thing that enable banks to get rid of their bad assets, will come at a price (higher long term interest rates), and ultimately cause a new process of more leverage. I think the consensus that the American consumer are dead, might be to overdone, when everyone agree on something, it’s usually wrong, however it becomes difficult for the US to sustain a large trade deficit when nobody wants to buy treasuries, but they will still buy stuff from China, they just have to pay more for it . The American consumer will start to save, but it’s not like they will stop consuming.
I think the worst is over.
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:34 am
Hi Steve,
Given that a debt moratoria would be a politically troublesome to implement, what are your thoughts on employer-of-last-resort schemes as a policy response? i.e. would you consider using an ELR to maintain nominal wages as a sufficient mid-term response to the GFC, or would this be inadequate without freeing up working capital for firms?
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:49 am
I support employer of last resort schemes–which were developed and promoted by Professor Bill Mitchell of the University of Newcastle, who like myself is a non-orthodox economist.
But I don’t regard them as a panacea, nor a cure for the current crisis. Ultimately I think that requires something that directly or indirectly reduces debt. Leaving the debt there while running an ELR would be a bit like Frank’n'Furter in the Rocky Horror Show in reverse, promising to “remove the symptom, but not the cause”. The cause would continue a slump in business activity.
From what I know of their views, I also differ from Bill (and his colleague Warren Mosler) in that I believe a serious downturn is inevitable, even if we abolish debt as I suggest (from my reading of their arguments, they are more sanguine about the prospects for government action to prevent a serious downturn–they just (rightly) disagree with the mainstream over what that action should be). Seeing aggregate demand as the sum of GDP plus the change in debt, if we are to cease being a debt-dependent economy then we have to remove our dependence on the latter term–but that involves starting from 20% less aggregate demand than we currently have.
Since part of that demand involves wasteful speculation on asset markets, some of that can be absorbed without real loss (though of course with fictitious wealth being massacred). But some of that debt also finances physical economic activity, so there has to be a slump in demand.
It could be argued that, since we were supplying that demand, the capacity to redistribute incomes and adjust demand to supply rather than vice versa must exist. Yes, maybe; but that physical capacity to supply resides in the developing world these days, courtesy of the relocation of production that others call globalisation. So a slump in demand in the OECD would still occur–and in a capitalist economy, it’s aggregate demand that rules the roost in any case, not supply.
February 2nd, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Adam Carr says the RBA will be hiking rates before the end of 2009: SCOREBOARD: Beware inflation
My view is the impact of the dramatic crash in China is only now starting to impact Australia as commodities contracts get renegotiated. The Australian recession should be in full swing by the 2nd half of 09 — unemployment will be rising, house prices falling, and corporate failures everywhere — and the last thing on the RBA’s mind will be hiking rates.
Is it just me, or had Adam Carr completely lost the plot?
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Steve –
In response to your post, one analyst responded as follows:
“The government is going to do infrastructure repair and other job creation programs, and some of the funding for these programs will likely come from money creation (printing). No banks are required. And how many unemployed are going to refuse jobs? In fact, due to money creation, which is inflationary, even government debt is not directly affected. The government can definitely force inflation. Their problem will be limiting it once it starts.”
How would you respond? Thank you
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:25 pm
I think the crash is over in commodities. The baltic dry index (dry shipping index) are up 35 % from increasing demand. Sugar are higher than before the credit crisis started, oil have bottomed out
(see comparison to 1998 on the gold/oil ratio)
, cotton have been making gains for two straight months, gold are making all time highs in most currencies, cocoa have not been this high since 1986 as it is right now.
The bond market are again pricing in inflation, it no longer signals deflation, so no it’s inflation again that the market’s worry. It’s really strange how fast things change from inflation to deflation to inflation again. It’s kind of ironic that the crisis is over, once the ones in charge start to go crazy with the money.
dow /gold is trending even lower, now it’s down at 9.
http://www.investmenttools.com/images/wfut/metals/dow_gold.gif
“For the first time since 2007, Treasury investors are betting that inflation will accelerate. ”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aL4DN7bHk3FU&refer=home
The whole “crisis” is probably just very oversold in the media, and back to normal as soon as the inventory of unsold homes in various markets clear.
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:32 pm
His statement is a definition “money creation, which is inflationary”, not analysis. The point of my paper was (a) governments don’t control the money supply–if anything the causation is reversed; and (b) the scale of debt is so great that most government money creation is going to end up topping up unused reserves rather than adding to demand for commodities.
If he were right, inflation in Japan would have gone through the roof in 2002 when the Japanese government increased M1 by 27% in one year. Instead, the rate of deflation accelerated slightly.
In other words, he’s a typical neoclassical economist: “I have my textbook–don’t confuse me with the facts or serious thought”.
Pardon the vehemence, but after 30 years of putting up with smug head in the sand stuff like this, occasionally my patience wears thin.
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:33 pm
I wonder if we can call and end to the deflation debate? Or it that is still to early? In light of the new evidence it really don’t seem like deflation still is a fear, given the bond market now are pricing in inflation in 2009?
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:33 pm
I should have added that the scale of money creation is the problem: with US Base Money equivalent to about 2% of outstanding debt, it would take an awful lot of printing to make an impact–far more than I expect the Fed would countenance. So the fact that “no banks are required” doesn’t alter the problem materially.
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Hi Prudentsaver,
You just do not quit. Have you been trading based on your ideas? If you have you must be down for the count. I hope not though.
You have been calling “The crisis is over” since you first started posting on this site. Yet the DOW and the S&P had their worst January ever. Did you catch that EVER!!!! In Nov and again in Dec and Jan you called it over. How do you rationalise that?
10 and 30 year US treasuries have been correcting their previous rally. When that correction is over and the yield starts falling again, will you then say “It’s deflation again”. The market never moves in a straight line. The market must always go back before it goes forward again.
Did you read Steve’s latest post at all? Do you agree or disagree that the market increases and decreases money supply? Not the governments. If Steve is wrong, please point out why. That would be of much better value to us than your statement “That the bottom is in”.
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Excellent article, as always. It seems strange that after centuries of using money, we still disagree over what it is and where it comes from. We don’t even know how to measure it, and we certainly don’t know how to manage it safely, especially when it reaches plague proportions.
Your thesis is by far the best explanation I know of and leaves others in its dust, but it still seems incomplete. There is something fundamentally different between currency, current accounts, term deposits, financial assets and derivatives. They are all money-like, but the differing elements of time and liquidity are critical to the phenomena we now see. I assume you are still working on those aspects.
Your quotes from Marx are most apt, because it is Marx that Rudd and other leaders will now try to emulate as they grab for more power. The challenge is to devise a new financial system that preserves capitalism and entrepreneurship. We shall need them to solve the many other problems waiting in the wings.
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Hi guys,
I am not so sure whether this is correct. On the weekend I was told my cousins who work in the banking sector that the government has recently relaxed the requirements allowing non residents to buy property/homes in Australia. This was not previously the case. Is this the case? or I misunderstood them?
If house prices fall a bit, wont that attract a lot of overseas investors so that it avoid the market tanking by 20 to 40%?
I known a lot of my friends from other parts of the world who love the sunshine and weather and are dying to come out here. As a surprise they are all cashed up and have no problems with the current prices and dont need to take out a mortgage.
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:13 pm
@joshua – there was talk about this a few weeks ago and Roubini posted alink to a paper by an economist from Griffith Uni(?) who was promoting the idea. To me it is another dumb attempt to sell off the farm – think of it as mining houses – a one off injection of cash and then the asset is gone.
How about selling off defence? I guess some people are happy with that as well.
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Hi Steve, I am an ex advertising guy, and see a serious need to ‘dumb’ down your ideas into animated projections and graphs. I have in mind the gapminder software whcih Hans Rosling demonstrates here.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html
Expressing various economic theories and their projected consequences via animation would have a profound educational effect on the masses. And stop neoclassicals from getting away with their dodgey creed….
I think addressing this issue of how money is generated nowadays is extremely important. I tried to understand why we had asset inflation over the last 8years, and concluded it was due to foreign credit expanding private debt in Australia. If Australians borrow more from overseas and inflate asset values, that’s the same as creating money……I don’t see where the 8% reserve ratio gets maintained though when we borrow more from overseas….
Keep up the good work. Day by day, gold goes up, and you become more validated in your views.
Cheers
Bruce Gray
February 2nd, 2009 at 6:07 pm
ABS release today showed a 29% decline in the number of Australian house transfers in the June 2008 quarter over 2007.
Brisbane house transfers (Jun qtr 07 vs 08) was within the error range of my forecast – I expected a fall of 40% and the actual fall was 44%. (Note, I made a small error in my original forecast on this site – I corrected it on “bubblepedia” and my own site prior to release – and my raw data are now on my website)
My forecast for Brisbane transfers for September 2008 quarter remains for a fall of 70% over the same quarter of the previous year
This is significantly more than the 21.4% decline attributed to REIQ data in a recent Courier Mail article.
Still no word from Melissa Ketchell on whether she is prepared to run with the DNRW and ABS stats in another article in the Courier Mail.
I have seen no evidence of a significant bounce back in activity in recent months in the latest data.
February 2nd, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Great idea Bruce,
And thanks for reminding me! I had seen Hans’s work before but I didn’t keep track of where. I’ll see if I can make use of it; it’s also something that the data repository work that some volunteers are doing here could make very good use of.
All the best, Steve
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Steve, I believe Gapminder is run by Hans’ son, Ola. I understand they are socially just in their approach to commerce. If you have a team of helpers, it might be worth them getting in touch with Hans and Ola, with the idea of Gapminder producing comparative economic models, and solutions.
It would be the sort of community service they would see the value of, as every nation needs these concepts understood by the electorate evermoreso….and they would produce them a lot quicker in a lot of languages.
I presume they’d need help from a team of guys like you to accumulate the data and write agorithms.
BTW, I think I read some time back Google bought into Gapminder. Though I’d thinkGOogle would see the need for this economics/finance educational communication thing too.
If you want another helper, put me in touch with your team and I’ll see what I can do…
Cheers again
Bruce Gray
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:55 pm
‘nanks’ your rhetorical question following on from the good point you raise about
‘selling off the farm
“How about selling off defence? I guess some people are happy with that as well.”
That might already be out of (beyond)our hands with the world in a completely new paradigm.
It will be very interesting (possibly scary) to witness all the new ‘alliances’ that develop out of the financial/monetary systems meltdown and the associated clamouring to “look at the number one”.
With Obama just that ‘extra stage’(age and interest) removed from valuing Australia, one might not be able to predict all the scenarios that could arise.
Remember ‘ big space, lots of natural resources’ – a very “tradeable” commodity.
Hopefully now your good mate Bob (Brown), having gone out of his way to insult the predecessor, will work equally hard to ingratiate himself with ‘the new messiah’ so that the central plank of our defence (the USA) isn’t diverted.
February 2nd, 2009 at 8:22 pm
al49er – I think your point about regional destabilisation(s) is a good one and one that has been made since the fall of the Soviet enpire. However I have long believed we have made a terrible mistake in being too strongly aligned with the USA. We should have been much more non-aligned and much more supportive of democracy within our own region. There are a number of reasons for this but one not often talked about is the cargo cult nature of Australian politics – we always seem to be looking for a big brother or benign mentor to save us, rather than developing our own specific strengths.
re Bob Brown – I am no great fan (or enemy) – I worry if he has a tendency to demagoguery. Nonetheless I hope for a Green government as soon as possible as they are the best of what is on offer and at least their election will mean the end of the far too cosy two party system.
February 2nd, 2009 at 8:54 pm
yes ‘nanks’ I am not sure sometimes how well the two-party system has served us, and whilst I think and Kevin ( the Ambo helper ) and Wayne, just haven’t got a clue about the current predicament – much less what to do,
I am not too impressed with Malcolm’s wedging attempts at this juncture.
That said, I am certain the Greens are not the solution. They are that used to the over the top radical propositions in the knowledge that they won’t actually have to implement decisions, they would be like the chasing dog who caught up with the car – wouldn’t know what to do with it.
Though I am told that the government comprised of Independents “wouldn’t work”, there have been quite a few who have shown themselves to be good genuine operators.
Australia is too much of a ‘target’ (as you seem to acknowledge) to attempt nonalignment.
Will look forward to further exchange when (to keep on topic = as you and I are cautioned to do ! ) Penny & Kev attempt to implement Carbon Trading, etc.
February 2nd, 2009 at 9:46 pm
Bullturnedbear
I think the money multiplier will expand further, and that the impact will be inflationary. I am just so surprised none seems to get it in the deflation camp, that they are ignoring the facts and don’t and realize that the markets hit their worst time in around 20 November, that the deflation scare is over and that it have been trending up ever since, it just takes 10 minutes to see. It was not even anything like deflation. It was just a panic like in 1998, just on a bigger scale like in 1907. No 1929. The dow is around the same level, but if you look at individual stocks it’s only the financial sector that have been trending lower, every other sector have been going up after around the 10 of December. In Norway real estate prices increased 4,2 % for apartments, 6,8 % for houses this month, it’s the biggest increase in January in many years. It’s directly connected to the devaluation to gold, I’m sure it’s the same thing that will happen in other countries as well, once the overhang of unsold houses begins to contract the effect of monetary inflation will be felt.
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Hey Deflationist, Are you trying to explain to me the wonders of the Malthusian growth model. Yeh I get that, and I agree a lot with what your saying. The words ‘Sustainable Growth’ have been kicked around for a long time by just about every politician on the planet. Most haven’t realised it’s an oxymoron.
One of the things that I thought might come out of this crash was a realisation that perhaps we need a new model, unfortunately I doubt things will change much in the short term. I do however see a time in the future (probably when it’s to late), when politicians are actually applauded for zero growth.
The Chinese realise what you are saying and in some ways are probably greatful for the downturn. 14% growth would have used up most of the worlds resources by the end of the century and probably the atmosphere as well. Let’s hope after this is over as Steve says they (the powers that be) might be more inclined to look at alternatives. Unfortunately they won’t do that without a lot more hurt.
February 2nd, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Steve,
very interesting article. Especially, the point regarding endogenous credit creation and the misbelief that the central banks control the rate of credit creation, when they are really just bystanders.
As I had always argued, this clearly shows that all those arguing that inflation will be the outcome of the expansion of the monetary base is nonsensical, and the efforts of the central banks will be swamped by the destruction of debt which is the predominate constituent of the money supply.
I should say, assuming those who stil advocate an inflationary outcome by the central banks attempt to prevent deflation, and that have actually read and understood your article, to be somewhat more intraspective and less sanguine about their position. Furthermore, this gives further support to the point that gold is a bubble that will at some point burst.
Steve, I also agree with your judgement that more than likely debt will be partially or in some instances fully repudiated, as opposed to a US currency crisis set off by a collapse in the US bond market. The US bond market will be supported by domestic corporate and household savings and countries that have a policy of running up current account surpluses and that are USD pegged. World trade will come off from it’s previous artifically elevated high that had been supported by the previous high level of debt that will now be reset to far lower levels.
mahaish,
the events between 1913 to 1949 that you raise, apart from India and the other British colonies that were part of the process of decolonisation, was more an outcome that the UK lost it’s dominance to be eventually taken over by the US, rather than the cause. You have it the wrong way round.
Again, I would say nothing is certain about China, infact I see they will have a much harder job in dealing with this environment than the US, given that they need to try and find effectively demand outside of China for their Chineese labour (excess supply), which they had been doing to date with great success using their vendor financing model. Now that all this external demand has dried up and may never return to the levels we have seen, I ask the question where is China now going to find this demand to satisfy all these eager Chineese hands and with it their desired growth? They have so far relied on tapping demand from the rest of the world for their over supply of production. Moreover, they have certainly shown, by their actions, that it is not so simply to create demand endogenously via tapping into their rural poor, being the largest population group, since they would have already done so along time ago. So, how is it that China will bootstrap it’s self to achieve the endogenous growth that they desperately require to fill the demand gap and thus to satisfy their desire to modernise and pull the rural class out of poverty? Not so easy as it seems. A state that has a massive rural underclass is far from one that will be able to suplant the current hegemon. A state that has a massive population does not automatically translate to being a super power. With a massive population also come with it massive and possibly even quite intractable problems, such as, massive destruction of the environment.
mahaish, what may happen in 30 years I think is very hard to predict, history demonstrates this, most predictions are usually found wanting.
With regards to gold, as you have put it, psychology, or rather simply misguided sentiment has taken hold that once recogonised will once again correct itself eventually.
What is more important is the readjustments that will take place in the foreign exchange markets where currencies will be rebalanced to some new state, this will show who will be the real winners and loosers in this process of readjustment.
February 3rd, 2009 at 1:06 am
Prudentsaver,
You said,
“Bullturnedbear I think the money multiplier will expand further, and that the impact will be inflationary.”
So you have read Steve’s post on this topic and you believe Steve’s analysis is flat out wrong? Please explain. Just the theory, not the predictions please.
February 3rd, 2009 at 1:31 am
Feb. 2 (Bloomberg) — President Barack Obama will require banks to boost lending to consumers and companies in return for taxpayer aid from the $700 billion bailout fund, in a departure from Bush administration policy, a key lawmaker said.
“As a condition of federal assistance, healthy banks without major capital shortfalls will increase lending above baseline levels,” Geithner said.
My Comments:
Why are these guys lying to the public? How dumb is the Congress, to believe them?
1. Why do they insist on banks lending more when the banks are already drowning in losses. Only the desperate borrowers want new debt now. Any borrowers in a strong position are trying to pay down their debt.
2. If there really were ‘healthy banks” out there, they would not need money from the TARP. Good try Geithner.
It’s all a load of bull to get a bigger bailout through and to grab more power. The voters are still totally deluded. Sentiment has not turned totally against debt in the US yet. It will and when it does look out.
February 3rd, 2009 at 1:44 am
Hi All
I’ve just looked at the Hans Rosling demonstration on the site recommended by winstonw. Remember the impact of ‘An Inconvenient Truth’ presented by Al Gore? That presented climate change in a way that most people could understand. Lots of colourful graphics as well as highly emotional film. Even one of the sceptics reluctantly admitted ‘it was a bit interesting’!!
What a good idea to get Steve’s message across to more people in a similar way.
February 3rd, 2009 at 6:41 am
Steve,
Brilliant “the credit money dog wags the fiat money tail”, is arguable the most important contribution to economic thought in the last 20 years or more.
As with all great ideas, blindingly obvious when you understand it (though as usual no one else thought of it, blinkered as we all were by “dead economists”).
This also points directly to solutions alleviations actually, for the current situation and also how to prevent it in the future.
But it has to be understood that ‘neo-liberal economics’ was a primarily political ideology, not an attempt at a coherent economic theory (we all remember monetary targeting, anyone also remember that howler ‘twin deficits’?).
The fundamental aim was to change the balance of power that had been setup post war. Basically this was a triad of capital, labour and Govt. Govt’s main role was as the ‘honest broker between labour and capital, and the representor of the uncommitted middle classes and the relatively powerless, mostly the poor (plus a secondary role of looking out for and investing in the future, something neither labour or capital were capable of doing).
This is the essence of Keynes ‘middle way’, remembering that he was as much a political philosopher as an economist. It was the method to steer between the rocks of left and right based totalitarianism that had overtaken the majority of the World pre-war.
This change was largely accomplished in the 80’s and 90’s, Govt’s were coopted into breaking unions, then ‘persuaded’ to exclude themselves from economic power (e.g. note the recent problems of the Victorian Govt and electricity, it has little actual power to control anything now).
Whatever short term ‘efficiency’ gains (and I dispute that there were much if any at all), were quickly destroyed by unregulated and concentrated capital moving into its favoured ‘rentier’ position. Simple evolution quickly produced monopolies, duopolies and oligopolies. The credit boom aided this process immeasurably of course, the big eat the small (essentially a predator prey relationship).
In the extreme cases, Govt’s were coopted into creating Govt protected monopolies (think City Link or US rating agencies), which for capital is nirvana.
In this ‘rentier’ situation owners quickly stripped out higher dividends by, lowering labour costs, reducing investment (including maintenance, which is usually misunderstood as it is actually an investment cost), increasing debt and (crucially, because that is the first line of protection from ‘black swan’ events) redundancy from their assets. A certain airline is the poster child for this, but it applies to many corporations.
Most ‘solutions’ now being proposed are simply mechanisms to try and maintain the rentiers position and income and will quite possibly increase their influence (even more corporate concentration for example). This bodes ill for a future recovery, as the first thing that will happen is that they will attempt to recover lost income, rather than hire more labour or make investments.
February 3rd, 2009 at 7:49 am
Bullturnedbear, the model is nice, i just want to bring attention to the fact that the money multiplier is in fact expanding in the US, and have expanded 10 % in the since the November low, I notice that there are new contradictory data coming out from the US. It’s a certain connection with the money multiplier and the 10 year notes yield, that have increased significantly. It might be a blip, but the multiplier expanding from the low, shipping rates are climbing, who knows what that means, but maybe it’s to early to make a final judgment yet, if we are in a new world, where the money multiplier have ceased to function, or if it will recover.
February 3rd, 2009 at 8:46 am
Hey Steve, absolutely smashing article, haven’t read anything so clear and thorough in some time now. Only one disagreement – the Austrian theory of money is quite robust actually (they had over 100 years to develop it after all
…had just a weekend to run through it but I was intrigued. It seems they call for a gold standard (or a commodity monetary anchor) and some of them call for 100% reserves as well, although I don’t see how would they accomplish that. I guess with gold standard and free banking, the banks would police themselves, but there’s no way a government agency would be able to enforce 100% reserves in a free banking system.
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:27 am
Thanks for this latest installment Steve, you have answered pretty much all my questions I had about (debt) money creation.
I am stunned. I am paying close to $1.8k per month on homeloan payments and most of it is interest. Interest to a private company (bank) that created my debt with a few keystrokes (from thin air) with the result that I have to pay this debt off twice over for the next 20 or so years including interest.
I could live with that (after all I signed the dotted line) if the bank actually had that money. But they don’t have to, thanks to our legislation that protects them while literally sucking the lifeblood from the rest of us.
Every dollar in our financial system is created with debt and the interest payable to banksters. The mind boggles.
Am I the only one that is extremely p###ed off with this setup?
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:31 am
No doubt most people have seen these videos on ‘The Creation of Money’ ….they’ve been around for a while but they are good. 1-5
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=mIIAvdJvCes&feature=related
number 2 on banks is good.
February 3rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Hi Steve,
Congratulations for the great post. I recon it deserves to be considered for a Nobel prize!
Few questions:
Your second money creation model (graph “Impact of Debt Parameters on Bank Income”) you use logarithmic scale to display the change of the amount of money over time. Had you used linear scale the lines would be exponential. Yet you call this model stable, why? It will eventually lead to banknotes of value 1*10^3, 1*10^4, 1*10^5, etc and at some stage the computers will run out of digits to hold the amounts. This is not funny, I have worked in IT department in a bank in Bulgaria during 1996/97 and yes, the computers did run out of digits.
Further on you make few assumptions about “horizon for debt repayment”, “increasing the money supply” and “rate of circulation of unlent reserves”. You seem to pull these numbers out of thin air – are they based on actual data? Also how sensitive are the results to various changes in these assumptions?
Graph “Real Output an Employment” shows a drop in output and a sharper drop in the employment. From there one can deduct that there will be a jump in the productivity (output per employee), then the productivity will gradually reduce over time. Rising productivity is usually good. Would you care to comment on that?
The same graph suggest that the output will bottom in 3 years and the employment – in 4. Also the output will recover in 11 years while the employment – in 12. Do you have any reason to believe that the reality will be much different?
Once again thanks for the great post!
February 3rd, 2009 at 2:31 pm
prudentsaver,
tell me where the money multiplier is increasing. The latest trend is as follows:
Date 2008-11-19 2008-12-03 2008-12-17 2008-12-31 2009-01-14
Value 1.010 1.025 0.951 0.944 0.915
taken from https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MULT
So where is it that the multiplier is working, please explain exactly this point. I await with anticipation for the voodoo magic.
The BDI appears to have reached a current floor, which one would expect that to happen eventually. The BDI is at 1070 coming of a low of around 600, having fallen off a cliff from a peak of 11600.
February 3rd, 2009 at 3:12 pm
“The EU and Canada have warned that a clause in the US economic recovery package could promote protectionism.
The “Buy American” clause seeks to ensure that only US iron, steel and manufactured goods are used in construction work funded by the bill.”
From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7866308.stm
As a number of us on this blog have been prediciting the next stage in this Greek tragedy is going to be trade tensions.
The “America First” or “Buy America” clause in the recovery package is out right protectionism. This does not look good for trade.
Creen was recently attempting to restart the DOHA development round, which has buckleys chance of happening in this environment, more likely rather than continued trade liberalisation, there where will be a move towards trade protectionism. All those countries that are running current account surpluses are going to be hit the hardest out of this. History does appear to be repeating itself.
February 3rd, 2009 at 4:08 pm
I’m grateful for your very clear explanation of Friedman/Bernanke gospel and its weaknesses. I’m not an economist, but I’ve always imagined the Friedmanite FED chief as a Wizard of Oz “pushing on a string”.
I’ve posted today my modest interpretation of your views which I’m convinced have validity:
http://twocents.blogs.com/weblog/2009/02/post-neoclassical-deflation-weconomics.html
Cheers!
Tom Drake
February 3rd, 2009 at 4:20 pm
thanks ueberbaer.
That is right – you are paying interest on money that never existed…it is all created when people sign on!
Another life hoax brought to you by the world we live in.
February 3rd, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Hi Prudentsaver,
You say that Steve’s model is “nice”. But that is not answering the question. Let me put it another way for you. Please put me out of my misery and please give me a straight answer.
Steve’s analysis basically says that the classical understanding of the Money Multiplier is BULL (sorry for dumbing it down Steve). So, now the $54T question. Do you think the classical view that Credit creation starts with deposits is correct?
February 3rd, 2009 at 4:55 pm
[...] Keen missed the point a little bit with his recent Debtwatch #31, stating that Marx was correct and that the “Cavaliers” are to blame. I apologise to [...]
February 3rd, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Steve
Thanks very much for this article.
I have spent many many hours working through the various sides of inflation and debt deflation, mainly reading very widely on the internet.
I’ve searched out many many sites. Nobel Prize winners to high popularity.
This post of yours is convincing, it is very clear that the USA faces a situation of debt deflation.
Your argument hinges on the data, and you’ve presented the data well.
Again, thanks. What happens to the USA is now clear.
—
Also, your credit model economy is well developed and presented.
I’ve never been a big believer in one being able to extract underlying meaning ( a “law” ) from the data. Too many variables are moving at once in economics.
However, you’ve used the data to disprove the neo-classical approach *and* put forward an alternative that I find interesting and compelling ( and, yes, obvious, but isn’t that part of genius, to make it seem obvious even though it isn’t written anywhere else in such a lucid form).
—
That said, I still have some trouble parsing what will transpire in Australia.
With Cash Rates at 5.25% (say, 3.25% + 2% margin), and rental yields between 3.5% and 5% (gross, not net), then the opportunity cost of holding a property has severely declined within the last 12 mths.
Will you be covering the role of expectations in influencing the movements in your model ??
Where price movements are a function of expectations, but with “real” feedback loops ?
Also, as I have asked before, have you identified points in these models where the parameter set drives the model to becoming unstable (numerical oscillation).
—
Again, thanks for putting so clearly the level of monetary inflation required to overcome the US Debt problem.
I hope to see such a clear elucidation relating to the Australian economy.
We’re further along, but not there yet.
Cheers
Furball.
February 3rd, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Hello, this is a very fascinating article. I especially like the simple “toy economy” showing the instability so clearly.
However, I’m not sure about your comment [10] that the Austrians have a vastly different idea of the dynamics from yours. In Human Action, Ludwig von Mises is pretty clear on the point that the deflationary collapse is an inevitable effect of the credit expansion and that it cannot be avoided without heroic efforts at hyperinflation that lead to a “final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.” Isn’t that exactly what you’re saying? Either Bernanke continues with half-measures such as doubling the monetary base, which will do nothing, or else he increases it by 2500%, which will indeed stop the deflation, but will lead to the financial holocaust Mises wrote about?
Also, I don’t agree with this bit:
“This is strange, since if [Austrians] advocate a private money system, they need a model of how banks could create money without fractional reserve lending. But they don’t have one.”
In the chapter on Monetary Reconstruction in the Theory of Money and Credit, Mises writes:
“Sound money still means today what it meant in the nineteenth century: the gold standard…The main thing is that the government should no longer be in a position to increase the quantity of money in circulation and the amount of checkbook money not fully—that is, 100 percent—covered by deposits paid in by the public.”
The view is, in other words, that banks do not create money by fractional reserve but only hold existing gold stocks and there can only be as much money in circulation as there is gold in existence. Money is “created” by digging yellow metal out of the ground, not by fractional-reserve banking. Mises continues:
“The classical or orthodox gold standard alone is a truly effective check on the power of the government to inflate the currency. Without such a check all other constitutional safeguards can be rendered vain.”
February 3rd, 2009 at 8:04 pm
mika,
so you advocate that the rate of growth of economic activity should be dictated by the amount of gold that can be dug out of the ground. How obsurd, why then choose gold as your standard, why not go for platinum, given that it is even more scarcer, which will ensure that credit creation is held even more in check. This demonstrates the absurdity using such a metric. Would it not be more wise to look to develop a mechanism or mechanisms that is based economic sustainability, which is tethered to environmental sustainability.
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:16 pm
iconoclast,
why do you think the growth of economic activity would be dictated by anything but productivity, innovation and entrepreneurial spirit? What has money got to do with it? Money is just a mean of exchange, it doesn’t stimulate nor suppress economic activity, if not tinkered with of course. The alleged “lack of gold” is just a keynesian myth, like the liquidity trap or the paradox of thrift.
And why not go for platinum? Well, because in the past several thousand years of human market interactions gold turned out to be the most preferable. People simply have chosen gold as their money. We may not like it, we may even criticize it, but that’s about it. And the scarcity of a commodity money doesn’t have any effect on credit creation at all. It just doesn’t matter, how scarce given commodity is. For a great explanatory article about the benefits and problems of gold standard, check out this Larry White’s paper:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp100.pdf
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:22 pm
The problem IS fractional reserve banking…we don’t need some other stupid version of it!!! I can’t say that Gols ought be the basis or not. What is certain is we need a system that doesn’t allow massive credit from limited savings and the confiscation of the assets of the prudent in favour of the profligate.
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Sorry, the comment is about 100 years behind the times. I’m just having a bad day!!!!!!Deficits, inane throwing around of money and the creation of even more foreign debt has set me off!
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:42 pm
Austrian economics does have a free banking model: a 100% reserve system. You can’t loan what you don’t have.
Would the market accept such a system? Well, it could do business with a deposit-and-loan institution that is inherently bankrupt, i.e., has a bad time structure in which its outstanding debts could be called in before it has assets to pay those debts (e.g., a bank run). But that would be very risky indeed.
Money doesn’t have to be only gold deposits in a bank. Though for numerous reasons, gold is pretty reliable.
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:45 pm
I just love this site. It’s addictive!
And the ongoing ‘discussion’ between prudentsaver, bullturnedbear and inconoclast is an absolute cliffhanger.
Each time I log on I hold my breath waiting to see if prudentsaver has finally answered bullturnedbear’s anguished pleas ‘…and please give me a straight answer.’
February 3rd, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Carlos,
well, you kind of missed one other essential component, that being, capital. Unless capital is provided, on planet earth, economic activity generally does not proceed. You can have all the entrepreneurial spirit you like, without the captial to proceed with a venture, i’d like to see get very far!
As Outback Oracle states it’s about the fractional reserve banking system, when we actually did have one, and it was backed by the gold standard, gold was used to regulate the growth of the money supply and thus credit growth.
Rather than using some archaic mechanism which is based on the amount of gold you can dig out of the ground and shovel into your vault to determine how a modern economy should grow or not grow is frankly absurd, and frankly demonstrates how there is very little progress in human thinking with regards to the develop of other control mechanisms that will give humanity an economic system that expands in a prudential and sustainable manner, and allows the enterprenurial spirit to flourish and not be held back by the amount of an archaic metal one holds in their vault.
My point is let us think out of the box, rather than reverting back to some archaic and prehistoric control mechanism to try and mange the growth of credit in the economy.
Being a Control Systems Engineer, I deal with control systems and their mathematical modelling on a daily basis. The economic system is just another control system. The manner by which this control system can be regulated, and how well, is dependent on which input signals you decide to use to control the system. It’s like developing a flight control system and rather than using input signals relevant to controlling the aircraft, such as rudder deflection, aileron deflection, bank angle, yaw rate, sideslip angle, roll rate etc. I decide to use the amount of gold dug out of the ground as the input signal to manage the aircraft control system. How bloody ridicules, really, truely!
Outback Oracle, I agree that a system developed should not allow massive credit to be created from limited savings and the confiscation of the assets of the prudent in favour of the profligate. That is without saying. I would also add that in addition the system has to also be sustainable, given that we live on a planet with finite resources.
Carlos,
Your reasoning given as to why gold was chosen is to just accept it based on some nebulas reasoning demonstrates exactly my point, that it is infact absurd, and it is just based on irrational human sentiment. The whole idea about the money supply being backed by gold is in it’s essence due to the scarcity of gold itself, nothing more, nothing less. If you actually bothered to think about it, this is the conclusion you would come to. This is the exact same reason why tulip bulbs, sea shells, etc. were at one time considered valuable.
February 4th, 2009 at 12:23 am
In addition, Murray Rothbard has well covered what happens to credit money in a free banking system with fractional reserve banking, and so footnote #10 is ignorant of this literature. See his Man, Economy and State and his A History ofMoney and Banking in the United States.
February 4th, 2009 at 12:25 am
Carlos,
If left to the market, the market would decide what money is. Historically, that has been gold first.
February 4th, 2009 at 12:26 am
I’ve just had a thought.Looking at the US economy, they’ve pumped a lot of base money into the system only to see it get locked up as bank assets. The inflationary effect hasn’t been felt.
If the dollar were to decline a litte, speculators would begin to short the dollar. Would this lead to increased borrowing, dragging the base money out through the reserve multipliers and trigger rapid inflation?
February 4th, 2009 at 1:24 am
Gold’s true value in our current system can’t be known until some black swan event where the dollar crash occur. On the discussion on Steve’s model, I think Steve is right in that credit creation have led the narrow money growth not the other way around, but I think it’s possible that the printing binge that our governments engage in can jump start a new credit cycle, or an explosion in broad money because of inflationary psychology, and expectations. It’s simply a matter of printing enough money.
February 4th, 2009 at 1:28 am
Iconoclast There is a great final line in teh old Western movie “McKenna’s Gold”. As Gregory peck rides off into the sunset he says “If the world was made of Gold, men would kill each other for a handfull of dirt!”
I’ve no doubt the Engineers etc would do a lot better job of designing a better financial system than we have. There would be a MINOR (sic!) problem, in weaning us and all the self-interst groups off the current system.
Now if you elect me dictator I could soon arrange it….
“All those countries that are running current account surpluses are going to be hit the hardest out of this. History does appear to be repeating itself.”
I’d wait a bit longert before claiming that one iconoclast. If their funding to us dries up (as i believe) then we are in one boatload of trouble. In Kruddies and Wayne Duck’s largesse they are completely ignoring this possibility (imho probability)
Re Gold…you can figure a Gold bubble maybe however, right now, again in my own opinion (and a few major international banks and commentators) the little Aussie Battler is headed for .35 to .45 USD. Gold might just prove a very good short term hold in that case. Today’s events make this scenario much more likely than it was yesterday. The Aussie went up a bit on all the announcements…now I’m no conspiracy theorist but someone had to be playing with it!
February 4th, 2009 at 1:32 am
Bullturnedbear we have been over this ground i know.
“urthermore, the rise and rise of securitisation has allowed banks to “lend off balance sheet”. This is another way to say “lend without reserves”. The rise of securitisation in Australia has been exponential in the last 15 years. This means that the real reserve ratio is much lower than the 8% required in Oz.”
I thought i saw a figure of 40x before the Reserve took on a whole lot of mortgages last year. Fundamentally, I remember thinking if Real Estate goes down about 3% the whole lot were insolvent.
I still believe that all private banks in Australia will be nationalised before this is over.
February 4th, 2009 at 1:34 am
Here is what I assume will happen if the US simply prints to much, and the impossible happen (the money multiplier get back up where it was, and then some, I think it will accelerate if inflation get’s really high ).
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=EXC#chart5:symbol=exc;range=my;compare=pot;indicator=volume+stochasticslow;charttype=line;crosshair=cross;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined
I then think these stocks will move from where they are now towards parabolic. I think it’s only a matter of time before that happens anyway, as the phenomena of peak oil it incompatible with our fiat money system, and will force it upon us sooner or later.
February 4th, 2009 at 2:09 am
Oh iconoclast, you should REALLY read something by Hayek, ideally this: http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/1974/hayek-lecture.html
This should put you in some perspective, as far as your belief in “progress” and “rationality” is concerned.
Actually I think that the kind of staunch conviction that some brilliant and enlightened individual (or a group of briliant and enlightened individuals) is smarter than free market, that he knows better than free market how society and economy should work, is THE main reason we are in this mess. It begins with guys like you who are absolutely certain that gold standard is “outdated” or “obsolete”, so they establish central bank and starts tinkering with money and economy, because they believe they can “control” everything, that they are smart enough to handle this enormously complex and inscrutable mechanism. It ends with gigantic crashes and milions of lost jobs.
I tell you something my friend – you are not smart enough. Nobody is. Geithner, Trichet, Bernanke, Greenspan – they´re all brilliant, but they are not smart enough. Thousands of years of free market interactions chose gold as an ultimate money and thinking that it’s somehow “irrational” and should be rejected as “unprogressive” is quite childish.
The early bolsheviks claimed capitalism is outdated and thing of the past, so they established an enlightened and “modern” new world order. We all know how that ended up.
February 4th, 2009 at 2:18 am
Hi Prudent,
I give up trying to understand the basis for your predictions. You hedged your bets once again. Let’s just make more predictions. It’s fun!
As I have been saying since the lead up to the turn on Jan 6 or 7 the major US indicies are on their way down to make a new low. After that bottom we will see a large multi month rally of 30% to 50% in stocks. Most likely 30%.
During the above fall or just after the turn (depending on the intensity of the fall) gold will make a top and begin a slide that will shock the gold bulls and confuse the hell out of them. The gold bugs are completely ignoring the effects of deflation and are obsessed with the fear of total collapse of the monetary system. During deflation the greatest demand is for cash, not gold. There is no other system other than the money system. Yet.
The US dollar and Yen will continue to rally in trend terms (relief retracements will occur) because most of the world’s debt is denominated in $US and Yen. As credit is destroyed or repaid, dollars and Yen must be raised to liquidate that debt. Gold does not pay back debt.
Inflation is dead (for now) just like the velocity of money. The reason is that the herd is freaking out and is paying back debt, not creating fresh debt to start another inflationary boom.
Prudent, If stocks have a multi month rally after this current fall. You will claim that the “bottom is in and I told you so”. You will then have months of data to support your case. By the end of 2009 beginning of 2010 I predict that you will give up and join the deflation band wagon. When you finally capitulate, that will be a sign to me that deflation has probably seen its hardest falls and inflation will begin in a muted fashion.
February 4th, 2009 at 2:29 am
I repeat my question. What if speculators were to start leveraging to short the dollar, on the whiff of a move downwards?
February 4th, 2009 at 2:33 am
Carlos,
As you know Steve Keen thinks the neo-classical school is like a cult, that consistently ignores objective reality, I can’t imagine how you think the even more cultist Austrians who reject even the possibility of empiricism could appeal to him.
And this:
is just silly. “Thousands” – really? – never universally, and even when it was adopted they still had trade cycles – read some Roman history.
The truth is that the market system is a human creation, is governed by rules made by humans and these rules will have to adjust to a changing world. What those rules are is subject to debate, which is what we are doing. Trying to pretend there was a golden age with perfect rules in the past, is just mythology.
http://www.davidbrin.com/libertarianarticle1.html
February 4th, 2009 at 2:46 am
Bull: I think you will loose big if you bet on deflation. What the US is doing now is similar to going off the gold standard, setting the stage for double digit inflation numbers further down the line.
http://markets.ft.com/tearsheets/performance.asp?s=gb@QW.1
If you look at sugar, it’s breaking loose. It’s absolutely no sign of deflation if you look at agricultural commodities.
February 4th, 2009 at 3:47 am
reason – I have no intention to make the Austrian school appeal to Mr. Keen. I just remarked that the Austrian theory of money is in no way simplistic and shouldn’t be rejected so casually.
And I have no idea if neoclassicals or Austrians are cultists, but I suppose most economists adhere to their favourite school of thought pretty tightly and scorn all others, so for me it doesn’t make much sense slapping each other with labels like “ideologist” or “cultist”.
February 4th, 2009 at 3:54 am
Hi Steve -
Certainly a very cogent argument, assuming your facts are right. I am like a lot of non-pros who are struggling to understand what’s going on. In this case it would help if you could have a point-by-point debate with a good, honest, open-minded “neolcassical” economist who represents the orthodox position. Do such exist?
February 4th, 2009 at 4:46 am
iconoclast,
I was actually not advocating anything in particular in my post. I was just (like Carlos) criticizing Keen’s dismissal of the Austrian theory of money as “simplistic.” Simple, perhaps, but it’s not simplistic. 100% reserve gold money is a simple idea that does address the issue of money creation by making the money supply depend on a free-market activity (viz. gold mining).
I agree with the previous poster who said that gold is what the Austrians talk about simply because the free market has chosen it once before, so let’s start the discussion there. (Actually there’s a good argument that the free market chose to use both gold and silver and it was Isaac Newton who started the whole monetary mess by having the government demonetize silver… but that’s a different story, one that perhaps teaches that even the smartest man in the world can’t be trusted with power over the monetary system!)
I personally think the Austrian idea has great merit, and could be approximated by a free-banking system subject to common law (Mises and Rothbard say as much in their writings). But I think the transition to such a system would be… “interesting”… Mises talks about how one might do it in his appendix on monetary reconstruction (1952), but to be honest, I don’t think anyone knows what will happen if people decide to abandon paper credit-fiat money. I think it’s not too wild a guess that all the financial markets, CPI indicators, etc., would go completely nuts for several years. But probably that price will have to be paid sometime anyhow…. better sooner than later, no?
February 4th, 2009 at 5:59 am
It looks like I will need a post on why I don’t regard the 100% money, free banking, gold-based visions of the Austrians–and for that matter Irving Fisher–as a serious analysis of money.
Unless the proposition is that we revert entirely to gold and/or ban loans entirely, the system will be a pure credit one like the model I outlined. That’s why I put that footnote in–but with insufficient elaboration.
Such a system will be subject to the same tendencies as I outlined in the post, to issue as much credit as the corporate & household sectors demand. If that is the milieu of an economy where speculation on asset prices can be profitable, then that system will still finance speculation that adds to debt levels without adding to productive capacity. It will therefore be subject to credit-driven booms and busts.
The one difference with what we are experiencing now is that, with the interference of the Greenspans and neoclassicals removed from the system, the buildup of debt won’t be as extreme as we’ve now experienced–we will only reach say Great Depression-inducing levels of debt of around (in the USA’s case) 150% of GDP, versus the 290% of GDP that the Fed’s “rescues” have led to.
In that sense, the Austrian approach would be better than–or not as bad as–what we’ve had under a Reserve-intermediated system.
The Austrian notions of free money are also affected by their adherence to the fallacy of Say’s Law, and ignores the need that Schumpeter–a not so Austrian Austrian–established for the endogenous growth of the money supply in response to and to finance innovations. I recommend that anyone who accepts the Austrian ideas of money read Schumpeter’s Theory of Economic Development, where he cogently explains why the development of innovations and their financing means that:
“in real life total credit must be greater than it could be if there were only fully covered credit. The credit structure projects not only beyond the existing gold basis, but also beyond the existing commodity basis.” (101)
That’s why I asserted that the Austrian model of money is not really one of money. It is of trading chits in a fixed output world-because that (and, as Marx argued also, the absence of capitalists!) is required for Say’ Law to operate.
This is a topic that I don’t have time for a long post on now, but obviously I’ll need to address in my book Finance and Economic Breakdown. When I have solidly started work on that, I’ll post my critique of Austrian notions and 100% money here. In the meantime, for those who might also be infuriated by the statement that Say’s Law is a fallacy, I’ll place my paper on that topic (from Steve Kates’s book 150 Years of Say’s Law, published by Edward Elgar) on my Research page.
February 4th, 2009 at 6:47 am
Hi Steve. This is very interesting and clearly written article, so thanks for your work! I have a couple of queries, though they are probably unimportant. The first is that the banks don’t appear to have any staff – the only money moved from the bank deposit to the household deposit is the interest on household deposits. Would the inclusion of wages paid by the banks make only a trivial difference to the model? The second is that when banks purchase output from firms (and indeed, when they pay wages to households), wouldn’t that be a linear, rather than triangular, payment, contravening the requirement for a credit economy that “any monetary payment must … be a triangular transaction”?
February 4th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Hey Steve, that’s great news, I cannot wait to read both of the announced texts, all your papers are very thoughtful, well developed and informative. That’s why I’m eagerly awaiting your refutation of Say’s Law, which surely is one of the most divisive topics in economics.
Also Schumpeter’s point about “real life credit”, is extremelly interesting, I personally tend to think that all credit can only come from previous savings, that fiat credit is an economic slow poison, but I’ll certainly check out some relevant Schumpeter’s work, haven’t read almost anything from him yet.
February 4th, 2009 at 6:56 am
Hi All Surrogate,
Thanks. There is no explicit mention of staff for banks in the model, but they are implicitly there in the banks’ consumption of goods from firms. Making it explicit would simply differentiate the workers into two groups and complicate the model somewhat without changing the basic nature. However I will do that in the academic versions of the model.
The purchase of goods by the banks is still three-sided in that the banks are purchasing goods using their own deposit accounts, rather than their unlent reserves–that’s what’s really meant by three-sided and not allowing seignorage. Again, if I elaborated further–to have the banks’ owners separate from the banks, payment of retained earnings, consumption from their accounts, and investment from a bank holding company rather than directly from the bank, the model would remain formally three-sided as well as implicitly. Again, that’s a complication for a more advanced model rather than an innate change to the model’s nature.
February 4th, 2009 at 7:27 am
Actually I was just thinking today about banks’ purchases. I work in a bank. Have you noticed how around bank HQs in the city there seem to be micro-economies of peripheral industry that revolve around them? I have noticed that now that credit contraction is taking hold, the banks are stopping the use of external suppliers of software and other services and bringing work in house. Now after thinking about fractional reserve banking I understand why. Until recently it was perfectly OK to spend a million dollars on a bit of business analysis at the procurement manager’s best friend’s consultancy down the road, because the banks on the whole would get several more million back. Watch the inner cities fade away as peripheral industry vanishes.
February 4th, 2009 at 7:46 am
Thanks Carlos–much appreciated. You will enjoy Schumpeter, and my Say’s Law paper is up on the Research page now.
You might also find it useful to check out my lectures on Managerial Economics on the Debunking Economics website, where I use Schumpeter’s arguments extensively.
February 4th, 2009 at 9:29 am
This is a great article, very clear and on target. Thank you very much.
As of Austrian school, it is nice in analyzing some failures that are roots of our current financial system. However, it’s useless for all practical reasons. Austrian economy is more like Utopia in our current world. Getting into one would require Worldwide revolution, more destructive than all revolutions of the 20th Century.
February 4th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Steve Keen:
I wonder what you have to say on the mounting small pieces of data recently that suggest the fears of deflation are fading away ? You think we could be heading for a reinforcement of the trend leading up to this mess after all?
Here is an article that mention the phenomena.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/118083-bond-market-signals-deflation-risk-is-disappearing
February 4th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Trying to rethink the whole situation.
If the Fed and Gov do print enough pure fiat money to overcome destruction of credit money, it will cause hyper-inflation.
If they fail, we’ll find ourselves in prolonged deflation and “Greater Depression”. (It must be much Greater than the Great Depression because the magnitude of the credit bubble today is higher than in 1929.)
But in both scenarios credit will be gone.
In deflation borrowing makes no financial sense.
In hyper-inflation lending makes no sense.
In both cases the World Wide dollar based financial pyramid will collapse. When this happens we may find ourselves in “Austrian” economy.
February 4th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
I have been thinking that debt deflation if it goes along will destroy the American consumption based economy in a way that would cause a bond collapse or run on the dollar sooner or later. And that trying to get back some sort of weak dollar boom similar to the one from 2003 and on, is the best they can manage.
Here is a site I found, the author seems to believe in hyperinflation caused by derivative losses than can’t be covered.
http://www.webofdebt.com/
February 4th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Hello Oracle
Good to see you back Things are moving fast the PM looked very worried on TV last night, I am wondering if he and his advisors have just woken up to what we have known for a long time or if they know something that we do not know — yet.
Good point on the continually overlooked current account. It seems that this Krudd Waygoose money drop may have an extra effect by accepting this quarter’s CAD debt by the government, keeping the show on the road for another few months. When it is spent and the foreign creditors (if they survive) realise that the Wizard of OZ has no clothes what next?
Keynes had quite a bit to say about out of balance current accounts. Now people are returning to his work perhaps they will bring this issue into the open.
At the IMF and since polititions have been muttering about fears of protectionISM but they have not discussed the problem of balancing trade and accounts. Perhaps they think that they will be able to return to the Howard Costalt free cargo and credit drop, when the the Krudd Waygoose money drop is dissapated.
The higher the goose flys the further the fall, but then, there are white swans!
February 4th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Oh really, Carlos,
it appears that you like making assertions that are not based on fact. When has there ever been a free market, please point out a time in history when this has occured, go on? You obviously do not know your history. Historically, civilisations have used many and varying items as a numeraire, a mere example of the various forms that money has taken, save contemporary forms of “money”, we have cowrie shell, salt, amber, jade, feathers, etc. Gold is just another in that long list of items that had been agreed upon, by some throughout history, as a form of “money”. This being predominately due to it’s scarcity, durability and fungibility, nothing more and nothing less, period. Gold is infact nothing special at all in this category, it is only the perception that it is, and nothing more. If we continue our line of thinking as with those who advocate gold as something special, other than what it truely is, well one can also put forward the argument that platinum, having similar intrinsic characteristics as gold, although scarcer, should infact be far far more valuable.
Start playing the ball and not the man, Carlos. If your want to seriously debate the matter, then let’s do so and not attempt to suffocate debate by throwing around your diatribe around as an attempt to support your questionable ideology, and let’s not mince words, it is just an ideology which you support.
A panglossian belief that gold is what will save the world, demonstrates a lack of thinking and in a misplaced belief in it. Moreover, those who are hell bent on holding on to archaic beliefs and are not prepared to think laterally are those that have ensured that this branch of human endevour has reached the dismal state that it has.
Only looking back at the postulates of dead economists, although, I am not advocating that their works be totally ignored, quite the contrary, should be strongly resisted and balanced to allow new ideas that may actually assit in preventing the economic boom/busts that have beset the world for far to long. To put it more succinctly, the point that Steve is making about expanding credit in a direction that removes the speculative component and allows innovation to be the dominant actor is exactly what I am suggesting, with the control mechanism regulating credit expansion be based on such metrics, and not on some esoteric commodity such as gold, given that it is not gold, nor the gold standard that will prevent another depression, but rather on how well credit is guided towards productive and innovative ventures.
Carlos, what do the bolsheviks have to do with the points being discussed, other than it being simply a red herrig.
Further, this blog site is not what one would consider mainstream, rather “fringe” in it’s theories and it is one that is open to debate on such matters that are currenltly being discussed.
Oldskeptic,
do you really think that the general public had, or has any idea on how the financial system operates? Do you think that the public, in fact, had any say in deciding on what form the monetary system was to take? How easy was it for Nixon to come off the gold standard, not much at all. So, what is the difference in replacing one control system (the gold standard) for another that is far more rational? So your point about convincing the masses, I would suggest is irrelevant, given that the masses never had any idea how the existing system even works, in any case.
Further, the proposition is that the system is still based on a credit based system, the main focus of my point, is what form should the control system take that will be required to regulate credit expansion, and moving to the gold standard I suggest is not going to save us.
With respect to why countries running current account surpluses (creditor nations) will be the hardest hit, I say this:
1. During the Great Depression, creditor countries, such as the US suffered more hardship debtor countries, such as Germany. The main reason, it has been suggested, is that a country running a current account, is one which has overproduction, and insufficient local demand to absorb this overproduction, and so taps into foreign demand to fill the gap in demand. When this foreign demand is no longer accessible or available, the current account surplus country is left with massive over capacity and over production still looking for demand, whilst the debtor country can begin to satisfy their local demand by ramping up on local production and investment to achieve this. This is exactly what the US is now attempting to do, whilst China on the other hand is closing factories.
2. A debtor nation can repudiate their debt to the creditor nation. The creditor nation gets the hit. Ask any of Madoffs clients how they feel.
Oldskeptic,
you might well be correct regarding where forex gyrations may move towards, but I wouldn’t put up international banks or commentators as a justification for your position, given they have shown to have no idea.
Regarding the falacy of Say’s Law, Steve, thanks for that. I shall review the paper that you intend placing on your research page.
February 4th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Iconoclast
The US may be able to attempt to lift production in this way but Australia has very little “means of production” left to enable local production to fill the gap as foreign credit dries up.
We have destroyed the “means of production” by demolishing factories and destroying the vocational education and training needed to inovate and produce.
Most people from the last productive era in Australia (around 1970)are now retiring and insuffiect replacements exist there are not sufficient trained personel to keep and maintain our current infrastructure let alone re establish adequate manufacturing.
The delay and investment required to re-establish adequate means of production will delay our recovery for decades.
February 4th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
BrightSpark1,
I agree with you that Australia is in a much more tenuous position, as far as current account deficit countries are concerned. Those, that will be able to retool will weather the down turn better than those that will find that task a challenge. It may still be that Australia will not be hit as hard as countries running current account surpluses, since they can still move through a readjustment to increase capacity. It is all relative. No matter what happens, the readjustment in the current account deficit/surplus countries will take time and there will be pain during this readjustment. There is no magic cure here.
But the current account deficit countries have a less arduous task than the current account surplus countries will have, In my thinking.
February 4th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Hi Steve and Others,
I read a comment elsewhere and would like to know what this guys means
Start->Keen is getting confused by the terminology used in his article.
The original hypothesis uses the words
“The creation of credit money should happen ”
“The amount of money in the economy should exceed ”
To me “should” refers to what is recommended in order to maintain a stable financial market. If the data shows that money is not derived in this manner, does not discredit the validity of the hypothesis. In fact if the data shows that the way it is actually being created caused a financial meltdown it tends to give more validity to the hypothesis.->End
I would like to understand what does everybody have to say about Julia Guilard and Peter Costellos statement that our Financial institutions work on SOUND PRINCIPALS. Is it possible that there is a chance they might go bankrupt if unemployment rises? Why has nothing happened so far and Australia has not been affected so much? It is true that they are like a ROCK?
Also, what do you have to say about the talk that Most Australians own their homes and less then 1/3 have mortgages? I seem to be getting these a lot.
Most people tend to believe that if we can get the confidence back again debt will be rolling one again and the doom and gloom will be over. This seems to be really crazy according to me.
February 4th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
iconoclast
I think you should really read Hayek.
February 4th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
iconoclast
I can’t agree that a technically bankrupt nation such as Australia and Iceland can be better of than the creditor nations who sent them into bankruptcy.
Inspite of what Mr Turnbull says the previous liberal government presided over the largest accumulation of national debt ever. His rantings over the fiscal defecit are a furphy or reveal his ignorance of the real national debt situation.
The creditor nations still posess the “Means of Production”. The debtor nations must take their place in the “third world” rankings.
February 4th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
iconoclast says
” Gold is just another in that long list of items that had been agreed upon, by some throughout history, as a form of “money”. This being predominately due to it’s scarcity, durability and fungibility, nothing more and nothing less, period. Gold is infact nothing special at all in this category, it is only the perception that it is, and nothing more. If we continue our line of thinking as with those who advocate gold as something special, other than what it truely is, well one can also put forward the argument that platinum, having similar intrinsic characteristics as gold, although scarcer, should infact be far far more valuable’.
Honestly Mate – Platinum was discovered in 1735…..that might have something to do with it not being considered ‘money’ in over 5000 years of history.
February 4th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Carlos,
To be sure, I have read some of Hayek, as well as, papers of advocates of the safe money theory, although I’d rather you debate the points under discussion.
BrightSpark1,
that is precisely what happened during the times of the Great Depression.
The creditor nation is a creditor as long as the debtor does not default. The creditor may have the means of production but unless they can access the demand that they require in excess of their domestic demand, their means of production will be merely mal-investments standing idle. The debtor nation can rebuild their means of production, whilst the creditor nation has an oversupply of production searching for demand.
Turnbull, is a politician, and as you put it, his rantings are a furphy.
February 4th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Steve,
Here are some ideas about what could be done. To what extent do you think they would work.
- Zero income tax for most people (up to at least the median income.
- Eliminate the monopoly on a “reserve” account currently only available to banks. Allow anyone to open a “reserve” account (one account only) with the bank of their choosing. The balances of these accounts is not included as the bank’s asset.
- Zero OCR on the reserve deposit for the reason that “reserve on call” deposit is zero risk and therefore should not receive any interest.
- A “stamp duty” on all transactions – say 3 to 6% takes the sting out of the speculative money go-round (but encourages trading in cash, so can’t be too high).
- A greater emphasis on taxing on equity/capital, rather than labour. In other words drive investment towards productive real outcomes. Taxing income is an easy calculation but assets is difficult. The aim should be to drive cash towards investment (this is the tough question).
- The reaction of the Government to this situation should be spending on real investment. I don’t see why such spending needs to be matched by any bond issues or any fund raising. ie it’s a legitimate reason to run a deficit and the right investment “pays for itself”. The difficulty is that Government’s find it difficult to to pick winners and the stimulus programs inevitably end up being hijacked and becoming giveaways (the kind of spending that should be “paid back”).
February 4th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
dojufitz,
the proposition of platinum as an alternative, was not to be taken seriously, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment, meant to make the point!
Civilizations throught history used all sorts of items as money, going in and out of fashion, as has already being pointed out. The point is that it is the human perception that gold has some intrinsic value, when really it does not.
February 4th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
iconoclast,
so what has intrinsic value?
February 4th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
dojufitz,
the intrinsic value of an item that is selected as a numeraire, be it gold or whatever else, save that it has the charachterisics of fungibility, duarbility and scarcity is that it is widely setteled upon as a store of value. In recent times, civilisations have settled upon gold as the numeraire, however, other items found in nature exhibit these intrinsic characteristics as well, and have been used in the past.
The reasoning for using gold as a means of controlling economic growth, is what I question.
The one major characteristic that a system, not tied to gold, is integrity, which we have certainly been in short supply of in recent times! Whether it is beyond the human condition to create such a system, that question is still debatable, we do live in the digital era.
During this discussion, my intention was to articulate that those who advocate gold, and I have had previous discussion with many, they, themselves have no real idea why.
It just demonstrates the human fraility of thought and belief, which I conclude is the same that allowed some individuals to believe a tin shed in the outer suburbs of L.A. was worth a half a million.
February 4th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Ah, the Austrians. They never let little things like evidence, logic or being refuted get them down…
Some “Austrians” have been complaining about how Minsky has been name-checked in this crisis rather than them. This is because Minsky had a sensible theory of why these things happen! The key problem with the “Austrian” theory is that it bases the crisis in banks artificially lowering the rate of interest from its equilibrium (“natural”) price. This has three major problems:
1. It is in contradiction with their normal claim that equilibrium is a meaningless concept and unlikely to exist in reality. Except, apparently, in the banking industry (where it can be used to demonise the state for the failings of capitalism) and in the labour market (where it can be used to bash unions and such like).
2. It is in contradiction with their defence of entrepreneurial activity within capitalism. After all, why do banks artificially lower interest rates? To make money by meeting customer demand! It seems hard to blame the government when (as Minsky argues) such activity is a natural part of the entrepreneurial activities of the banks seeking profits.
3. It is also ignores that an interest rate, firstly, do not reflect the time preference of individuals and, secondly, even if it did, it is
also the source of income for banks! Hence they have a market interest to act as they do, regardless of whether there is central banking or not.
Unsurprisingly, 19th century America was very unstable — after the civil war it was in recession as often as it was not. So in spite of
more “free banking” in the nineteenth century than in the twentieth, the economy was fundamentally more unstable.
And I should also note that the “Austrian” theory was defeated during the debates in the 1930s, with von Hayek being refuting by Sraffa and Kaldor (who was formally one of his supporters). It was their critiques of von Hayek which helped ensure the success of Keynes and that the “Austrians” were marginalised (that and their own policy suggestions of doing nothing). Unsurprisingly, the “Austrians” tend not to mention this awkward fact…
Similarly, as Sraffa noted, if the price of any good was different from its “natural” rate then you would get similar “malinvestment” as with the interest rate. So the entrepreneurial activity of the bankers is not the only source of instability in capitalism, nor the only source of potential crisis.
This site has links to relevant articles on the subject:
Krugman Right
http://robertvienneau.blogspot.com/2009/01/krugman-correct.html
February 4th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Bud,
who cares why Gold has been chosen – the fact is it has been money from ancient times and always will be.
You say Gold has no intrinsic value and then you say it does – which is it?
I think your question regarding integrity has been answered – the history of fiat money -all of them have gone to zero – i read somewhere the life span of most fiats is about 40 years – well the US went off the Gold standard in 1971…..you do the math.
Gold gives the system discipline – that is why it is hated by governments.
Give govts the ability to print money and they will…..it is not that complicated – you will never have integrity with fiat.
Gold cannot be created via a computer.
February 4th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
dojufitz,
you may not have the desire to think deeply about the universe that you live in, you should not assume that others are also that way inclined.
Gold has no more intrinsic value than salt, that is why both have been used as money in the past. They both have the same chararcteristics essential for money, succinctly put, that is my point! To think otherwise is a fallacy!
What happens in the past is not a reason to fall back to a dated and archaic system that does not solve the crux of the problem.
The point is that you do not give governments that ability to print money. I have never stated that the existing system, as it stands, should be perpetuated.
Yea, so, big deal gold can’t be created via a computer. That doesn’t mean that humanity has to be stuck with an archaic mechanism that really doesn’t solve the underlying problem. Why is it that humanity can not establish a system using technology and legislation together to achieve such an outcome? This way of thinking would have ensured that man kind would still be in the dark ages.
February 4th, 2009 at 9:27 pm
iconoclast, now this is really a serious conundrum, isn’t it? If gold is so valueless and unworthy of our consideration as “modern” money, why is that that it emerged as ultimate money independently in so many places around the world, against competition of so many other commodities? One cannot help to think – well because people for SOME reason DID value it after all no? And if people valued it (and still do) so much, then it MUST have value, right? How else do you explain that? Irrationality? Animal spirits? God did it? Why don’t you go to Nymex, stand in the middle of the parket and shout: “Listen people, don’t be irrational, I’m smarter than all of ya and I’m telling ya, gold doesn’t have any value, don’t buy it like crazy!”?
Do you see what I mean by saying that no man or class of men is smarter than free market? Why I’ve brought up the example with bolsheviks? Why I urge you to read Hayek? Because you and all the social engineers in history have one thing in common – intellectual hauteur (Hayek calls it the conceit of knowledge or the pretense of knowledge). Free market, or free society for that matter, is an ultimate process of discovery and belive me, if you for the life of yours cannot understand why it does things the way it does, then there’s is something wrong with your thinking, not with the society.
February 4th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
I think to many economists see growth and innovation as a good thing. Is it? Do we need growth, and these great accomplishments? I don’t think so. That’s why gold, and no fractional system works best.
February 4th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
carlos…
why did the world go off the gold standard then? Could it be that all the gold ended up in one place, and commerce died in places where it became too scarce. The same as economic power concentrates and you need a countervailing power (democratic government) to offset it? I think you story is simply ahistorical and wishful utopian thinking. All Utopians are the same, this simple fix will solve all our problems. If only!
February 4th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
Hayek, was particularly in his somewhat more modest later years after he suffered some theoretical defeats, not so different from the neo-classical mainstream. Others in the Austrian school though, Rothbard in particular, were extremer. The Rothbardian Utopia is a sort of theocracy, where the guiding rules are all known to long dead philospher kings and can’t be changed anymore. I prefer a more dynamic, evolving system.
February 4th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Long time reader, 1st time poster. I’m just a rookie when it comes to economics, but have been following the gold debate above with interest. I tend to agree with iconoclast, but would say that gold does have value but not much utility. A return to the gold standard might mean that more labour, materials etc. will be spent in trying to dig the stuff out of the ground, with the end product sitting in a vault somewhere rather than directly improving our standard of living. Wouldn’t it be better to use this labour and materials on more worthwhile endeavours that do contribute to improving our way of life.
February 4th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
Carlos,
your drawing a long bow saying that everywhere around the world it was used as the ultimate form of money. As has been stated previously, many and varied items had been used by different civilizations around the world as a store of wealth, gold was not the only form.
Why don’t you attempt to answer your own question?
Gold is as valuable as a society wants it to be, it is in it’s roots irrational, as has been outlined clearly above. Please attempt to refute it, if you can.
Yes, yes let’s now argue that it is based on intellectual conceit.
What a joke. Now we blather about free market and free society, what ever they are. I’d like you to define terms before they are used.
Gold is not the panacea, wars, famines and pestilence have occured during times at which gold has been used as money. It is not a cure to ensure the stability of a society. You should read about the goings on during the times of Macchiaveli. As small exerpt will suffice:
“Denying absolutely that money is the sinew of war, Machiavelli recounted the story of Solon of Athens, who when showed the treasure of Croesus, King of Lydia, was asked what he thought of Croesus’ power. Solon answered Croesus by saying that wars are fought with steel, not with gold, “and if anyone came along who had more steel than he had, he could deprive him of his power.”
Not surprisingly, that is what happened to Croesus and his Lydian kingdom. A conflict with Persia led to defeat. The steel of Persia overcame the gold of Lydia. The richest country was not the strongest country after all.”
February 4th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
The idea of intrinsic value is laughable. When we develop fusion reactors that can produce gold cheaply, that ‘intrinsic’ value is lost. Gold is valuable because it is limited and has cultural inertia behind it. It’s value stems from a time when it was a useful medium of conveying a promise.
The idea of free and open markets is laughable. Economics is nothing without human animal behaviour, and our societies are hierarchical. We have a propensity to interpret all systems, self organising or not, as hierarchical. There will always be regulators and leaders, necessary or not.
February 4th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
iconoclast, now you’ve resorted to purely straw man type argument. You’re destroying your own propositions, not mine. I’ve never said gold was used EVERYWHERE around the world and I’ve never said gold is panacea.
“Why don’t you attempt to answer your own question?” – but that’s the whole POINT! I can’t answer it, at least not fully. I don’t suffer from the conceit of knowledge as you do. But at least I don’t go around sneering at alleged irrationality of our ancestors, thinking that “if only I was alive then, maaan, that would be a DIFFERENT story, I would show them backward savages who is the enlightened one here!”
Gold was, for the most part of most human civilizations, the best money, that’s a fact. You can dislike it, you can even call it “irrational” but that’s all you can do about it.
And your request to “define the terms” is just an evasive action, often used by those who like to smear and mangle the debate they’re losing into fuzzy, mushy stalemate. I won’t play that game.
February 5th, 2009 at 3:11 am
Carlos,
I suggest you reconsider your point about a modern person going back to the time of “savage” ancestors. It makes you look foolish and rather defeats your own point about the conceit of knowledge. (I remember the TV series where the medieval magician Catwiesel – who could do real magic – was awed by “electrickery”.) It is a rather unfortunate case of an own goal.
February 5th, 2009 at 4:26 am
reason – well I’m not a native speaker, maybe I didn’t get my point across correctly. The point about going back was meant to illustrate iconoclast’s thinking, not mine.
February 5th, 2009 at 6:21 am
Boys Boys simmer down,
I don’t know how relevant this is as I may have lost the point of your gold discussion a while ago. But here I go.
Not that long ago Australia’s “ancestors” used rum as a currency. What does that say about Australia? A bunch of drunken yobbos. Maybe that was the start of our “consumption based” economy. Ha ha ha!
February 5th, 2009 at 6:25 am
iconoclast and dojufitz,
There is an important reason, why gold suited much better than any other metal beside its “it’s scarcity, durability and fungibility” and beside its cultural association with wealth.
The reasons are:
1. there is practically no other use of gold;
2. there is almost constant total amount of it, its production is pathetic comparing to what we already have.
The first reason is extremely important: silver and copper are heavily used in electronics. Platinum (and others from its group, like palladium) are catalytics heavily used in catalytic converters. They have market value, which depends on the constantly changing supply and demand.
There is practically no industrial use of gold, even less than it used to be historically. There are much better materials for gilding domes or in dentistry today.
This makes in much more stable material for tokens of wealth than any other one.
February 5th, 2009 at 6:30 am
I’ll confess I’m a luddite. I don’t know how to do the clever linking and highlighting you guys do.
Mish just posted a graph of US CPI where he replaced the OER (Onwers’ equivalent rent) component with a measure from the Case Shiller index. Mish calls this the CS-CPI. It shows a figure of negative 5% in December year over year. Ouch.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO-vZpSgc/SYl249oUKhI/AAAAAAAAFik/ZFCEH7YD_f0/s1600-h/CS-CPI-2009-01.png
February 5th, 2009 at 7:16 am
I think Mish’s bubble are bursting and that he are desperate posting a graph like that. Inflation it back. It seems like China are decoupling, and that this will bring stagflation on the US.
February 5th, 2009 at 7:28 am
Fair call on Mish Prudent. The financial doom and gloom blog world does seem to be a bubble. Also the MSM is in full doom and gloom mode. Strong socionomic signals that the market is getting ready to make another significant low.
I have been saying for a while that the markets (shares and commodities) are close to making significant lows that will not be breached for many months. Also I believe gold’s bubble will burst while other market recover.
Where you and I diverge is at least on two levels.
1. The potential path of the macro economy. I say increasing unemployment and deflation. Not sure what you say.
2. I say by the end of the year, the share markets will be making new lows in a big way (after a 30% or more retracement). Where do you say the markets will head in late 2009 and 2010?
February 5th, 2009 at 7:38 am
Hi Steve,
I just read your paper on Say’s “Law” and I have two questions:
1. Regarding the following passage:
If income is to grow, the financial markets, where the various plans to save and
invest are reconciled, must generate an aggregate demand that, aside from brief
intervals, is ever rising. For real aggregate demand to be increasing, . . . it is
necessary that current spending plans, summed over all sectors, be greater than
current received income and that some market technique exist by which aggregate
spending in excess of aggregate anticipated income can be financed. It follows that
over a period during which economic growth takes place, at least some sectors
finance a part of their spending by emitting debt or selling assets. (Minsky 1963
[1982]: 6)
… it appears to me to have a serious logical flaw. To explain what I mean, let me first note that it doesn’t seem to deal with mis-anticipations at all (this is not the flaw, though). The assumption is that agents’ expectations are correct.
Ok then… I agree with:
it is
necessary that current spending plans, summed over all sectors, be greater than
current received income
But how can this follow?:
some market technique exist by which aggregate
spending in excess of aggregate anticipated income can be financed.
Where is the step that establishes that “aggregate anticipated income” is the same as “current received income”? It seems to me that aggregate anticipated income (assuming agents’ projections are correct) must be greater than current received income, but the argument hinges on the fact that anticipated income equals current income.
2. Isn’t the demand deficiency of the capitalist or miser simply made up for with demand for capital goods? Isn’t a penny saved a penny invested? The “rational” capitalist invests his excess income in various kinds of capital goods; the “irrational” miser puts his money in his mattress, which drives down the prices for the goods he would have purchased had he been a rational capitalist, and other, more rational capitalists accordingly make up for the miser’s demand deficiency.
By the way, there’s a curious historical tidbit that I’m not sure if you’re aware of. Clearly in a 100% reserve gold-standard monetary system, the demand for gold metal would be very high. This is an example of a thoroughly wasteful demand, as the actual amount of gold in the world (in tons) doesn’t really matter. Accordingly, in his first edition of the Theory of Money and Credit (1912), even Ludwig von Mises himself gave some support to the idea of fiat money. In later editions, he had lived through a few hyperinflations and apparently changed his mind….
February 5th, 2009 at 7:56 am
Bull, what makes me optimistic is that the yield curve is similar to the start of past expansions. You have loan growth in China, the almost doubling in the baltic dry index, many chinese shares have been very compressed from the increase in the value of treasuries. As treasuries have declined, these shares have shot back up, like treasury yields up 2 %, these stocks up 4 %, even the dow is down, etc. Some numbers from the US are coming in better.
What I hold as a possibility if the US fail to ignite loan growth is that they start to buy treasuries, maybe they will do this anyway, if nobody wants to finance this. In that event, I think you will have an outflow of money from the US, and a huge liquidity game starting. I assume this money will flow to things negatively connected with treasuries and the dollar. That means, Chinese shares, commodities, fertilizer stocks, gold, real estate in china, the list goes on, alternative and green within the US, infrastructure in the US. All these things are possible drivers. I think the yield curve and the yield on treasuries are facts, the other things are mostly speculation. I see increasing unemployment as you, but I don’t see deflation. However, if deflation should arrive, I think emerging markets would gear down from rather high inflation to disinflation, and developed markets should move towards money printing similar to japan from 2001, and even if japan called that deflation, it was rather a form of inflation with a real wage decline and no compensation, or deflation of living standards.
However, I think it’s more likely with higher inflation. Like the short term rate in the US have moved up from 0 % to 0,3 %, the long term yield is going up and up. It looks as Mish had his day in the sun when yields were much lower. That I think was an artifact of the Lehman collapse, that took many by surprise. The market’s have recovered most of the Lehman accident it seems. Many believe in China. You should look at what Ben Bernanke have been investing in. Canadian Government bonds, US TIPS like bonds, he had to sell his Phillip morris stocks when he became central banker, he also have a greater China fund for his Son, plus some US large cap funds. There is not a single “deflation bet”, in his portfolio.
February 5th, 2009 at 8:09 am
Hi Mika,
It requires a step outside the equilibrium thinking that economics has unfortunately been dominated by–yes, even Austrian economists (and Post Keynesian for that matter)! Minsky, Schumpeter and Marx all managed that leap in the passages I cite in that paper, though without being able to show the mathematics behind it. That may have led to some occasional slips in language–or linguistic expressions that are very difficult to parse–but their arguments are correct.
I have built a model of this process in the paper that will be published in Economic Analysis and Policy in March 2009, a draft of which is available here. Check the table on page 18: you will see that aggregate demand exceeds aggregate supply when the economy is expanding, and is below it when the economy is shrinking.
February 5th, 2009 at 8:12 am
Mish was smart in seeing that Oil was driven by speculation and was behaving as a bubble, I saw that myself, even shorted oil, however I was to early, I shorted oil when it was at a little under 100 dollars and I had to cover, and never tried it again. I went short at the start of the bear sterns trouble, but after it just shot back up. But I am yet not sure if it really was a bubble, what about the Baltic dry and fertilizer. Could it be that the supply in the world is to marginal to meet just a small increase in demand from China? The futures speculation in oil is at the same level now as it was when oil were at 147 dollars. Yet the price is much lower now. Perhaps there is some other phenomena going on that is hard to grasp, a form of rational speculation against treasuries and the dollar, where some choose oil, other choose gold. I don’t think the things that happened after Lehman was much different than what happened in 1998, or when bear sterns collapsed. Just stronger and more brutal. The China play is also probably some sort of bubble in the making, but they have growth, ability to expand consumer credit, an undervalued currency, etc, even if it’s not undervalued, I think the perception it is, will make it hold if they tried to let it get stronger, because that would attract foreign money, ending up making it a self fulfilling prophecy.
I have analyzed the railroad picks of Warren Buffet. You could argue that a stronger dollar could make commodities collapse and give him strong profit margins on a much lower oil price. However. His second son, Bill Gates, are making bet’s on a Canadian railroad, instead of US railroad as Buffet. That means, that Buffet use the railroad as an inflation and weak dollar hedge, and even possibly as a way to ride the commodity boom. No way that Gates would buy Canadian instead of American, if buffet believed in a strong dollar.
February 5th, 2009 at 9:24 am
Hi Prudent,
I don’t believe that Mish is wrong. Although on many points over time he and I will be and have been wrong. Not that I claim equality with Mish either.
The point I wanted to make is that Blog traffic seems to be in a bubble. As the markets turn and people believe “the problems are behind us”. The blog traffic will fall. That does not mean that Mish and Steve and other “doom sayers” are and will be wrong. I believe what is going on here will be measured over years and be talked about for decades. One small degree trend could (and I believe will) get swamped by the larger degree trend as time passes.
I believe your assumptions that the sell off is all over are near sighted. I believe you are looking at the numbers you want to see and building a case. Of course I am doing the same thing as you, with different numbers. Until more time passes and we look back it will be hard to assess who is on or off the mark.
The notion that demand and social mood is turning hugely negative in the short to medium term. Sits much better with me today than your notion that expansion and optimism will win in the short term. I believe in a historical sense the World is overdue for a few steps back before it can leap forward again. How and when that happens is the hard bit to predict.
February 5th, 2009 at 9:36 am
just a minor remark: the rate of profit in the advanced capitalist countries that I know of (US, Germany, UK, France, Spain, Korea, Japan) DOES seem to have a tendency to fall (some upticks since the mid-70s, but secular decline overall since WWII)…
there are many studies on this by Marxian economists like Duménil-Lévy, F. Moseley, A. Shaikh and many others.
Now that does not prove that Marx was right, but it surely does not disprove his theory of the TRPF either.
Whether Marx predicted the “demise” of capitalism is a contentious issue…he certainly hoped for it, but the reasons he gave for capitalism’s prospective downfall were more of a political nature than strictly economic.
(and Marx clearly did not derive capitalism’s downfall from the TRPF, even naming several countervailing tendencies, which could keep up the profit rate, and pointing out that a falling profit rate would be accompanied by growing amounts of profits in absolute terms (which is exactly what seems to be going on)).
In short: I think his theories should be taken more seriously, and not ignored (and/or mischaracterized) out of hand.
Who knows, maybe he was right about more than just the “roving cavaliers of credit”…
February 5th, 2009 at 10:01 am
I am not really sure what Mish is predicting, I think he have oversimplified and missed a lot by first making up his mind then go looking for facts to back up his intuition. I use a different approach. He is a market timer to, and believe in Elliott waves, I don’t. Nor do I believe in astrology.I feared deflation as my first posts to this blog suggest, but lately I have begun to fear inflation (after deflation became mainstream). It seems he one the one side predict deflation and on the other side predict that gold will go very high, he will be wrong on one of them for sure, unless he define a collapse as in Argentina as deflation from 2002 as deflation, of course it’s not. The other is the difference with Japan, as japans debt were held inside japan, they also had current account surpluses, with the US treasury market, you instead have foreigners holding it, you have huge deficits, and those foreigners can loose in both higher yields and a weaker dollar. It’s more similar to countries like Iceland, than Japan, at least I think it is. There is another pattern repeating to.
http://media.economist.com/images/20080329/CIN079.gif
It’s much worse now. I wonder why this trend won’t happen with the dollar. I think it will. Meaning higher yields, unless the fed themselves print money to keep yields low. That will be different from japan that did not have a problem with high yields, and more like Zimbabwe, wanting to fund a deficit but not pay what the market demands.
I think buffet’s choice of railroad is that it’s the bottom of the bond pyramid.
You don’t see it well here, but we are in a mirror situation to before the US bond yields have been trending upwards, like before 1940, or around 1900. http://media.economist.com/images/19991225/milltab6.gif (rail yields have been trending up is around 7 %, while government bonds is around 2,8 % now, I think the difference is some sort of bubble. The mirror situation to around 1940, or 1900, is why buffet want the equity, not the bond. The economist had an article on it, mentioning the similarity to around 1938, but I can’t find it.
February 5th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Here is the comparison: http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/12585264?f=related
I suppose if we are in “1938″ and history is to repeat. The reserve currency will go to china as it went from the UK to US at that time, secondly you will have printing of money, as similar to what gave the 20 % inflation in around 1945. That happened when fed bought treasuries back then, and transferred private debt to public, and I think that was what ultimately caused long term treasuries to trend up.
February 5th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
This will be final post on the matter of gold and it’s value or lack of.
Carlos,
the jist of your argument is flawed, you ask questions about why gold was chosen in different places around the world, although you do not question the complement of your question, you tailor your question to suit your argument. As I have already allude, why not ask the other more pertinent question, if you really are attempting to seek reason, why did other forms of money take hold in so many places.
Our ancestors were so rational they would test if a woman was a witch by attempting to drown her and if she didn’t then they’d burn her.
I never anticipated any other outcome other than where we are, but it does demonstrate the real slog ahead to attempt to change the thinking mindset of any side of the ideological dividing line, Austrians, Neo-classicals, Monetarists et al.
I do not claim to no anything, infact I claim to no nothing, although I do seek knowledge.
????? ??????? / know thy self
February 5th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
it appears the blog site does not accept a non-latin character set. ????? ??????? was meant to say in ancient Greek text “gnothi seauton”
February 5th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Hi Prudent,
Out of interest. Why do you reject Elliotwave?
February 5th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Steve,
Rothbard has already dealt (in “America’s Great Depression”) with the fallacies of Schumpeter’s “innovations” that you use for your attack on the Austrians. These include:
1. There is no explanation offered on the lack of accurate forecasting by both the old and new firms. Why were not the difficulties expected and discounted?
2. In reality, it may take a long time for a cluster of innovations in a new industry to develop, and yet it may take a relatively short time for the output of that industry to increase as a result of the innovations. Yet the theory must assume that output increases after the cluster has done its work; otherwise, there is no boom nor bust.
3. As we have seen above, time preferences and interest are ignored, and also ignored is the fact that saving and not technology is the factor limiting investment. Hence, investment financed by bank credit need not be directed into innovations, but can also finance greater investment in already known processes.
4. The theory postulates a periodic cluster of innovations in the boom periods. But there is no reasoning advanced to account for such an odd cluster. On the contrary, innovations, technological advance, take place continually, and in most, not just a few, firms. A cluster of innovations implies, furthermore, a periodic cluster of entrepreneurial ability, and this assumption is clearly unwarranted. And insofar as innovation is a regular business procedure of research and development, rents from innovations will accrue to the research and development departments of firms, rather than as entrepreneurial profits.
5. Schumpeter’s view of entrepreneurship—usually acclaimed as his greatest contribution—is extremely narrow and one-sided. He sees entrepreneurship as solely the making of innovations, setting up new firms to innovate, etc. Actually, entrepreneurs are continually at work, always adjusting to uncertain future demand and supply conditions, including the effects of innovations.
February 5th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
I find those opinions of Rothbard’s flimsy in the extreme. I have some time for Hayek and von Mises, but frankly I have always regarded Rothbard as a doctrinaire lightweight.
Schumpeter’s view of entrepreneurship, as you call it, was actually a fairly good example of how one should make assumptions: all of them made his case harder to establish rather than easier. Yes of course existing firms with retained earnings are innovating all the time; Schumpeter ignored them to focus on innovations by new entities which therefore lacked working capital, and therefore had to approach banks (or venture capitalists) for funding.
And Schumpeter is far from being the only basis of my critique of Austrian economics–something that I have not devoted as much attention to as critiquing neoclassical economics, of course, which as a theory is both far worse, and far more damaging.
And Justin, if you are going to criticise my analysis, then please at least read it. Thanks for the apology on your blog “I apologise to Steve for not reading the whole issue — I only read the first two sections and the conclusions”. But to then follow that with “But that was enough to find this error in thought” hardly shows great intellectual depth in your own reasoning. I suggest you read the bits you skipped and if you can then find an error, correspond with me again.
February 5th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Steve,
If you insist, I suggest reading Hayaks’ “The Use of Knowledge in Society” for another critique of Schumpeter’s ideas, or perhaps even Mises’ “Human Action”, which I’m sure you’re familiar with.
I agree on the neoclassical thought (and now the resurgence of Keynesianism — Krugman and co. are becoming quite dangerous). I’ll try to find the time to read your analysis over the weekend and get back to you on your challenge.
February 5th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
ugh, Hayek.
February 6th, 2009 at 12:45 am
I don’t trust wave analysis, I think it’s fast way of going broke. I think trusting it is a form of poor judgment, that’s one of the reasons I have no stock in Mish. I don’t have any faith in Robert Prechter at all.He are simply trying to predict the impossible and fails miserably again and again. When he are hitting the perfect storm as now, there is probably coming something from the left he did not see, and he then fails again in his predictions. I think it’s easier to go with the flow and avoid to try and predict anything.
February 6th, 2009 at 2:34 am
“Rothbard has already dealt (in ‘America’s Great Depression’) with the fallacies of Schumpeter’s ‘innovations’ that you use for your attack on the Austrians.”
Really? Did he? I doubt it. Let me quote from said book, where he attacks Joseph Schumpeter’s crisis theory because, in effect, Schumpeter does not show how entrepreneurs cannot predict the future:
“There is no explanation offered on the lack of accurate forecasting . . . why were not the difficulties expected and discounted?”[America's Great Depression, p. 70]
So Rothbard dismissed Schumpeter because the latter did not think that entrepreneurs cannot see into the future, as the former thought they could? Please! Rothbard was a joke.
Rothbard, in the same book, states that entrepreneurs “are trained to forecast the market correctly; they only make mass errors when governmental or bank intervention distorts the ‘signals’ of the market.” [p. 48] Yet he does not ponder why bankers, who are surely entrepreneurs as well, make their errors nor why the foresight of business people in an uncertain and complex economy seems to fail them in the face of repeated actions of banks (which they could, surely, have “expected and discounted”).
This means that the argument concerning distortions of the interest rate by banks (or the state) does not, as such, explain the occurrence of over-investment (and so the business cycle).
Therefore, it cannot be claimed that removing state interference in the market for money will also remove the business-cycle. Banks act like they do (reduce the interest rate) to make money. They would (and have) done it without central banks similar because they are capitalist institutions, seeking profits by meeting customer demand.
Iain
http://www.anarchistfaq.org.uk
February 6th, 2009 at 4:06 am
I wonder what will happen if one incorporates FX to the model…
February 6th, 2009 at 6:30 am
I’m so much happier this morning. I’ll have nearly a thousand dollars in my pocket soon, and an economic Professor on the Reserve Bank board (McKibbin) has told me that there is no crisis unless we talk ourselves into one.
“It risks turning what isn’t a crisis into a crisis”
Feeling much better now.
February 6th, 2009 at 7:13 am
Can you send me the link to that article that cites McKibbin please? Thanks, Steve
February 6th, 2009 at 7:45 am
Top stuff Anarcho. I am delighted to have you contributing to this blog.
For readers who haven’t checked out Anarcho’s site, the page on economics is well worth a visit.
February 6th, 2009 at 8:49 am
Agreed. Anarcho’s site has some great economics commentary on it. It’s interesting that both Steve and Anarcho quote from Mark Blaug’s article from Challenge, itself worth reading.
February 6th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Anarcho,
First of all, there was no overinvestment. To quote Mises,
“The boom itself does not result in a restriction but rather in an increase in consumption, it does not procure more capital goods for new investment. The essence of the credit-expansion boom is not overinvestment, but investment in wrong lines, i.e. malinvestment.”
“The observer notices only the malinvestments which are visible and fails to recognize that these establishments are malinvestments only because of the fact that other plants – those required for the production of the complementary factors of productions and those required for the production of consumers’ goods more urgently demanded by the public – are lacking.”
“The whole entrepreneurial class is, as it were, in the position of a master-builder who overestimates the quantity of the available supply of materials, oversizes the groundwork, and only discovers later that he lacks the material needed for the completion of the structure. It is obvious that our master-builder’s fault was not over-investment, but an inappropriate investment.”
Interest rates artificially set by the central bank are the cause of said malinvestment, many formerly unprofitable ventures are undertaken thanks to the incorrect signal sent into capital markets.
The current problem isn’t a moral issue (evil bankers), it’s a policy one. Sure, there has been plenty of malfeasance but to focus on that is to skip the larger issue: monetary policy sends incorrect signals into capital markets, reducing lenders’ ability to distinguish between good and bad loans; it also sends incorrect signals to potential borrowers about what they can and cannot afford.
If, without any government, one bank decided to pursue a reckless policy of credit expansion, its currency’s speculative demand would decline and its price would drop like a rock, as it became less and less usable as money (due to better substitute currencies). Its sole value would be in repaying that bank’s debt. If the bank went bankrupt, its notes would be worth next to nothing.
February 6th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
February 6th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
PrudentSaver, just noted your talk about oil. A good blogger on energy fundamentals is Gregor McDonald (gregor.us). Hugh Hendry (Eclectica Fund)is also worth listening to, and entertaining.
Gregor believes gold and oil will be reasonable stores of wealth over the next few years. Also that sovereign funds (bonds treasuries) and currency (esp USD) must lose their appeal soon and sharply. This has begun in the UK. Govt bailouts of insolvent British banks is eroding confidence in the solvency of the Bank of England and Treasury.
Capital is most likely to take flight to gold, oil, and current account surplus currencies (Yen, Swiss, Krona).
Personally, I doubt how safe the surplus currencies are. Japanese exports fell off a cliff in December. I think they’ll need the yen for internal use, which will weaken it.
And I think gold is a safer preserver of wealth than oil. Until economic productivity increases, I can’t see POO moving beyond $60. The Middle East and even Chavez cannot do without oil revenue, no matter how much the global economy slows. And the contango doesn’t look like reversing to backwardation for some time.
Economic productivity won’t increase until credit expands, which is dependent on confidence and inflated asset price deflation. Until western free markets let asset prices deflate, credit flow will not be restored.
February 6th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Steve Keen:
I don’t want to indulge in the “narcissism of small differences” here, but I read a couple of your papers on Marx, to see what you thought wrong with his deployment of LTV, and I found them slightly off. In general, it’s not a good idea to assume that Marx simply made large errors and/or overlooked obvious tendencies or implications, though that is what his economic critics often do, due to a motivated refusal to examine and credit premises, which are different from their own (though that is also partly self-inflicted, given the difficulties and recursions of his “dialectical” mode of presentation). (I’m not accusing you here, since you obviously have made that effort and I think you’re probably only slightly off).
Without going into the immense elaborations required, I’ll offer just a few remarks. Exchange-/use-value is an analytic distinction, not substantive, twin aspects, held together in”contradictory tension, of the “value” attaching to the commodity-form, hence not atomicly separable items. So Marx is being reasonable and consistent in not attaching a use-value to capital goods, since their sole use-value is the production of exchange-values. (One can not eat, wear, play with, etc. a machine-tool). Indeed, capitalists derive not just their income, profit, but their wealth from the ownership of such means-of-production, and the value of such capital goods is only realized from the revenues from the sale of output above costs, not simply from their use in production, such that capitalists do not simply strive to maximalize their profits, but to maintain the value of their capital stocks, which is their wealth, but which has no other use-value for them. What Marx obviously would not and did not overlook is that technical improvements in capital stocks raise the productivity of labor and increase the surplus-product available for distribution, so his deployment of LTV would not be in “contradiction” to that tendency, but rather, to the contrary, be designed to highlight that very tendency and examine its dynamic unfolding through the course of “competitive” markets and conflicting capital/labor relations. But Marx, of course, was engaged in a critique of classical political economy, and his deployment of LTV was designed not to repeat their explanation of long-run “natural” prices at equilibrium, but rather to explain the “origin” of profits, which remained “mysterious” in their accounts. Thus, by combining classical political economy with German dialectical critique, LTV becomes “ironized” in Marx. “Abstract, average, socially necessary labor-time” might be at the source of all “value”, but it is not “embodied” in commodities, as the “substance” of value, since it is not differential labor activities that imbue commodities with value themselves, but rather exchange processes across “competitive” markets that abstract/extract such AASNLT,- (and, of course, it is the existence of “free” labor as a commodity that is an essential condition for such markets)-, just as it is not the profit-maximalizing motives of capitalists themselves that result in the simultaneous improvement and consolidation of capital stocks, but the competitive pressures that result in economic crises, which destroy capital stocks and their values in the process of their “competitive” consolidation. And the “origins” of value in labor is likewise “ironized”, since “origins” here does not mean any longer a primordial causitive ground, as in metaphysics, but a retrospective account of an emergent phenomenon and the current relations and “forces” that sustain it.
The upshot is that Marx chooses “labor-values” as an accounting device for the peculiar explanatory purposes of his project, which is not primarily to explain empirical/nominal price-formation, nor even cost/prices of production, but rather the long-run dynamic disequilibrium tendencies of the unfolding of capitalist “relations-of-production”. In my understanding, “labor-values” are held constant per capita, (almost as an inverted mirror image of “hard” commodity-money gold), and the “tendential law of the falling rate of profit”, (which is by no means “linear”, nor a mechanical “covering law), is expressed in terms of labor-values, such that increasing concentrations of capital per worker are already “essentially” a declining value of capital. (The “law” is “essential” in terms of the Hegelian vocabulary/method of the dialectic of appearance and essence that Marx adopts as the basis of his exposition, in which the “essence” of essence is to appear, but it may appear “empirically” in a variety of manifestations, while the “essential” conceptual/structural formulation might appear inverted and paradoxical in contrast to its empirical appearances, such that, e.g. rising/inflating financial asset prices due to rising expectations of further profits based on past realizations might already be an “expression” of falling rates of profit). Of course, the obvious objection to “labor-values” is that they are empirically unobservable, (though the formation of nominal prices at equilibrium is itself not exactly an empirical observation, and the identification of “value” with nominal prices is itself a positivistic reduction). But “labor-value” accounting is precisely designed to diverge from nominal prices, which would be manifested in the discrepancies, gaps, slippages, and incompatabilities that emerge in nominal prices over the course of business/production cycles. (This will especially emerge to full force in the Vol. 3 account of financialization and “fictitious capital”, which is quite close, AFAICT, to your own concerns with debt accumulation/deflation). At any rate, nominal money-prices would not suffice for an account of long-run dynamics of the value relations and productive ratios “internal” to the economic system as a whole with technical change, since, simply put, a set of nominal prices at a given point would not be the “same” in composition and “value” than a set of nominal prices 30 years later.
Just a few more remarks before I leave off. The “transformation problem” does not exist, at least in the form and with the severity imputed to Marx, since the neo-classicals, who “discovered” it, re-normalized each production period as at equilibrium, and thus engaged in some double-counting, whereas Marx did not, since his point was to delineate long-run dynamic disequlibrium tendencies, and such a move would have defeated his very point. But Marx certainly would not have made such gross errors, in defiance of all empirical or common-sense observation, as claiming the highly concentrated capital-intensive sectors with economies of/increasing returns to scale, and correspondingly high levels of labor productivity and of distributable surplus product, would exhibit lower accounting profits than lower productivity, more labor intensive sectors. Nor would he have thought that technical improvements to capital stocks didn’t enhance labor productivity and real and potential output, any more than he would have assumed more fertile land didn’t increase agricultural yields. Why would anyone attribute such stupidities to him? Wouldn’t the more natural assumption be that Marx had been misinterpreted and misunderstood. To be sure, highly concentrated capital intensive oligopolies generate considerable increases in surplus-product and enjoy, through insulation from market competitive pressures, considerable rents, (some of which can be shared out with wage-labor). But they also lower the real price of output and dis-employ labor, (which must be re-employed in lower productivity, more labor intensive sectors in the medium-run), hence they lower wage-based demand, and saturate available demand, all the while having to bear the high costs of long-run fixed capital investment, thus straining their own profits. (Indeed, capitalists tend to be loathe to undertake such long-run, high cost, uncertain fixed capital investment, and, to the extent that such consolidation does not happen involuntarily through “competitive” consolidation through crises, a point of criticism of Marx might be that he largely missed the role of the state in assisting and subsidizing such concentrations, though the role of the state and the political was IMO the weakest part of his theorizing/thinking). In the meantime, labor is redeployed to lower intensity sectors, with corresponding capital investment there, which yield lower surplus-products, hence lesser potential distributions to profits. It would be hard to claim that such tendencies are “unempirical”, yet it is precisely the intention of labor-value accounting to bring them out through the divergence of nominal market prices from the “mass” of labor-values. (It is precisely the growing discrepancy of underlying value-relations and productivity ratios from nominal market prices, under technical change and the asymmetrical distribution between wages and profits, which Marx sees as endemic to capitalism, that is at the root of his crisis account, and, yes, he does see credit as endogenous to the production cycle, and the crisis in the realization of productive investment as being prolonged into financialzation and the growing accumulation of “fictitious capital” to maintain artificially the rate of profit, which accentuates the discrepancy, until the crisis is manifested in a financial meltdown that disrupts production. It might be possible to articulate that dynamic in terms other than LTV, but it wouldn’t be possible in terms of assuming the validity of nominal “market” prices).
So the upshot here is that a “fundamentalist” interpretation of Marx’ deployment of LTV, for all its propagandistic appeal, one way or another, won’t do. Indeed, far from claiming that labor is the source of all value, it is rather the exploitation of labor, with “exploitation” being far more a functional than a normative concept, that is at the root of the account, in which a cross-dependent, but conflictual relation between labor and capital, all-the-more exacerbated by their being partial substitutes for each other, at once valorizes capital stocks and drives their “destruction” through technical change. There is a paradox of productivity just as much as there is a paradox of thrift. A fundamentalist account of Marx’ LTV effectively performs the very reification of labor that Marx, in fact, is criticizing. That all too many “orthodox” Marxists have done the same is not exactly an excuse. For the rest, I see know reason prima facie why the accummulation of human experience, skill, and knowledge underlying technical change should be accredited to capital rather than labor.
I have no idea how any of the above tergiversations might affect, if at all, your views on the current excessive accumulations of debt, which, though I’ve only read a few of your recent posts and thus am not fully versed in, I’m sympathetic to. I too think this global crisis will involve an enormous destruction of accumulated debt/ficitious capital before it is resolved through resetting asset values with available revenues, incomes, and productive capacities, (which will also undergo some “destruction”). And the crisis is enormously complicated by the globalization of both finance and production supply chains, large trade imbalances and a deficit for-ex regime, and the potential specter of sovereign defaults. Still, it’s already clear that it is forcing increasing state intervention in economies, with nationalizations and increased public controls, regulation, investment and re-distribution, against an overwhelming contrary ideological “consensus”. Thinking beyond just the issue of debt liquidation, in terms of more “creative” policy options that might get us to the “other side” and shape it more humanely and naturally might be in order.
February 6th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Hi Winston and Prudent,
I think oil is heavily oversold. Oil is fully due for a big relief rally. My call is that once the current share market sell off has finished. Oil will bounce back to at least $70 and fairly promptly too. But what do I know? If the share sell off is severe oil may fall to $30 before it jumps up hard.
Gold on the other hand is in a fear bubble. My tip on gold is down down down once the current sell off in shares is over and the fear of global meltdown has a break for a few months.
When I say current sell off. I mean the one that started around January 7, 2009 (not the big one that’s been going since ’07).
February 6th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Hi Steve,
You’ve probably read the article by now in today’s SMH.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/reserve-bank-director-opposes-package/2009/02/05/1233423405336.html
Professor McKibbin said the most important factor in the economy’s performance in coming months would be confidence.
“Playing politics is very dangerous because it wipes out confidence and the glue that holds the economy together is confidence and liquidity.
“The loss of confidence … has been largely self-induced.”
Gotta love this guy.
February 6th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
OK Justin,
you point out just which investments are lacking. One example. Stop waffling, give us some concrete evidence.
February 6th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Justin,
you are making the mistake of ignoring the dualism of the financial economy and the real economy. The source of this problem doesn’t lie in the real economy.
February 6th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Justin,
seriously you come across like a high-priest mumbling his irrelevant woo.
February 6th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
justin,
in a way part of what you say is correct, if we had draconian controls on the financial sector, we would never have had the sort of bubble we had. But we might also have middle ages style growth rates.
February 6th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
I loved your credit dog wagging the base money tail analogy and have been taking interest in the gold as money arguments going on down here.
The way I have always thought of fractional reserve banking is like a frothy cappucino. The commercial banks froth up the milk (broad money and credit) and get a shot of espresso (narrow money) from the central bank.
According to the neoclassical and Austrian views, it is the coffee (whether it is fiat or gold standard) which fuels the economy, and the frothy milk just dilutes it.
What the credit money theory is saying is that it is actually the frothy milk which sustains the economy, after all that’s where all the calories are
This makes a lot of sense to me as there are many credit instruments used in the business and banking world that require no reserves at all, but still fuel the economy.
What then is the relevence of the reserve currency? In my analogy it is a fundamentally different thing to the credit froth, but in the pure credit money model of the economy the base currency is not really different from the money created by the banks.
I really like the model Steve shows, and it may convince me to throw away my cappucino analogy, but is the assumption that credit money and reserve money are really no different actually an assumption too far?
February 7th, 2009 at 1:39 am
That’s right, oil is very oversold and due for a rebound. Especially Canadian oil sand and Norwegian stocks are cheap.
There is no longer any fear of deflation in the market, it’s completely gone.
The movement i fertilizer stocks suggest that inflation is going to be a very big problem.
I am sure there will be a blame game after this, where the politicians will argue how some of them could throw all this gasoline onto a raging fire.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:07 am
Hi evenkeel,
Your frothy milk analogy is not a bad one. A coffee with too much milk and not enough coffee is a lousy coffee.
You mean “reserve ratio” I presume, rather than “reserve currency”?
First, bear in mind that 6 of the OECD nations (including Australia) have abandoned reserve ratios altogether–to use another analogy, it doesn’t say much for the idea of the reserve ratio as a “steering wheel” for the economy is the “driver” is willing to throw it away while remaining inside the car!
The reason it doesn’t control the system, even in countries that still have it, can be (a) how it is defined–look at America’s where there’s a 10% for individual accounts but a zero requirement for corporate accounts); or (b) how the financial system really works.
On the latter, BullTurnedBear gave you a good explanation: if a given bank wants to lend and is already at its reserve ratio, it borrows money from another bank or from the Central Bank. Those borrowed funds turn up immediately as “deposits” (though it also has a loan that it has to service at the so-called cash rate of interest), and it is then below its reserve requirements. So long as a bank is willing to borrow to meet its reserve requirements, the reserve ratio can’t restrain its lending.
The only way the reserve requirement can bite is if the entire system is at its reserve ratio limit, so that a single bank can’t borrow from another bank and has to approach the Central Bank, and the Central Bank refuses to lend.
You can imagine the impact that has. If economic conditions are otherwise benign or even booming, you get a State-induced economic crisis: lending everywhere comes to a halt as banks try to garner deposits so that they won’t fall foul of what happened to the one whose request for cash was rebuffed.
So what does the Central Bank do in that very rare situation? It either ignores the breach of reserve requirements “just this once”, or it issues more base money.
Overlay this behaviour on top of the existence of lines of credit and unused credit card limits, unused “redraw rights” on mortgages, unused overdraft limits, etc., and it’s obvious why the credit dog wags the fiat money tail.
In the wash, my reading of the real reason for the reserve ratio–i.e., the one that actually applies in a functioning economy, rather than the hypothetical control purpose that the economic textbooks regurgitate–is to meet the public’s desire to hold part of its money in the form of cash rather than as bank deposits.
In this light, the USA’s “reserve requirement”, that banks hold 10% of any deposit by individuals, but have a zero requirement for corporate loans, makes eminent sense. Corporates very rarely ask for money as cash (and even then it’s to pay wages in cash 99% of the time); individuals frequently do, but in the aggregate nothing like 10% of their bank account holdings anyway. The 10% rule ensures that a bank will rarely have the “I’m sorry, we can’t give you cash because we haven’t got any” syndrome, which of course would cause an instant run.
Finally, the only difference between credit-created money and fiat-created money is that the latter can be in the form of cash whereas the latter can’t be (unless it is sourced from cash in the first place). So ideally in a full model I would need two unlent reserve accounts for banks–one for cash and the other for non-cash money–where the banks always tried to ensure that their ratio of the cash reserve to the non-cash reserve exceeded some safety margin, and the reserve bank complied with a lag like the one that exists in the real world of about a year to pressures to increase the cash supply to maintain this ratio–which the politicians in the model would then call the “reserve ratio”.
February 7th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Thanks for the clarification there. So it’s really a matter of cultural preference how important the cash in peoples pockets and bank vaults is compared to credit money that sits in bank accounts. The “reserve ratio” is the safety net for banks so that depositors always have access to cash.
I suppose in any crisis where credit money becomes less trusted than cash the banks will try to increase their unlent reserves to improve that ratio and give themselves a bigger safety net.
Surely an injection of central government money may be necessary to prevent bank runs, and while it might not lead to an inflationary increase in credit-created money, it can help to prevent bank failures and defaults and so stave off the worst of the crisis in that way.
What would the effect of bank failures be in your model, would this have a greater deflationary effect than the banks merely clawing back some of the money they created?
February 7th, 2009 at 11:21 am
oh yes! Bank collapses would bing the model (and the real world) to a crashing halt. The decline in spending would be instant as money was destroyed by deposits not being honoured, and a run on deposits elsewhere would compound it. That’s why I supported the bank guarantee.
February 8th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
The link to ‘paper’ is evidently broken and I couldn’t download it.
February 8th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
It worked when I tried it Warren. Try going to the Research page of the blog where there is another link. You might also find it’s a browser problem, which you could work around by “right-clicking” on the link and then choosing “Save As”. I find a lot of bugs in the integration of Adobe Acrobat with Internet Explorer.
February 9th, 2009 at 6:44 am
Steve,
I enjoyed your post. I agree with everything you say about how this crisis has come about, and why the prescribed cures are not working.
I, like some other readers, consider myself an Austrian. However, it is more from a moral perspective than any notion of theoretical superiority.
Thus, I do have an issue with your support of the taxpayer bailouts as ‘better than doing nothing.’ I see this as a major moral hazard issue that is sending the wrong signals to people not only now, but 40-50 years from now. They will see this reckless “ponzi lending” as an acceptable risk to take for the short term reward.
Regardless, I am not as sticky on my beliefs in the anarcho-capitalist doctrine as most (although I believe it is better than most put forth alternatives). I take it that you are simply of another branch of the Austrian School that began in Vienna at the same time as Mises. Stemming from Friedrich von Wieser/Shumpeter and then succeeded by Minsky. I can live with that.
But what I would like to hear from you are your opinions on some sort of competitive currency barter hybrid system to replace this broken one. I do not believe in the “gold standard or nothing” approach. But gold could play a role if it was deemed appropriate by the market. More specifically, I am envisioning a system in which many different commodities can be used electronically as the payment of currency.
For example, a worker can request to be paid in multiple currencies, which would be of no further inconvenience to the employer than it is now due to our technological advancements. The worker could take one of those currencies (lets say bushels of wheat) and use it to pay for a new suit just as we select “chequing” or “saving” account on our bank cards. If the tailor did not want wheat, but rather gold or RBA notes, he could make that exchange immediately or request the payer to do so prior to the transaction.
I am envisioning numerous types of banks arising who keep reserves of wheat, land, gold, mortgage securities, etc. In my opinion, the small scale that these banks would logistically be, and the “fear factor” of depositors switching out, will be a market-based solution to prevent the excessive speculation that inevitably results from a credit based monetary system.
The combination of our technological advancements and the repeal of legal tender laws would make this a sort of “new age barter economy” where the problem of finding a “match” would be eliminated by use of the internet.
I think this would be a way to smooth (but not flatten – that is impossible) the business cycle. Is this something you would agree with, or do you see flaws somewhere along the way?
Cheers mate,
Matt Stiles
February 9th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Hi Matt,
Welcome aboard.
I’ll address the currency issue in a second, but first the Austrian thing. I have some sympathy to some aspects of Austrian thought, but in a nutshell I see it as having some good ideas derived from poor foundations. One strength it has is the rejection of equilibrium thinking, but at the same time it hasn’t gone far enough with that. So while it sees the strengths of the capitalist economy as being its ability to cope with disequilibrium–and I agree with that–it still sees equilibrium tendencies as ruling the roost.
So we have notions of what happens to prices when the interest rate is above or below its equilibrium level, the impact of this on the “roundaboutness of production”, supply and demand price determination (even if slightly out of equilibrium), etc.
The one Austrian that I have enormous time for is Schumpeter, and he was Minsky’s PhD supervisor, so there is definitely a link there. But I think that Austrian thought in general hasn’t assimilated Schumpeter properly, because to do so involves rejecting various ideas–like Say’s Law–that still underpin much of Austrian thinking, but which Schumpeter very effectively demolished.
So my ideas come from a collage of Marx (not the labor theory of value obviously, nor the belief in the ultimate demise of capitalism!), Keynes, Sraffa, Kalecki, Fisher, Schumpeter, Minsky, and concepts from nonlinear dynamics and chaos theory where, in economics, two little known economists Richard Goodwin and John Blatt made the major contributions. Hayek and von Mises add only small embellishments, and a lot of what they argue–both technically about capitalism and methodologically about how one should do economics–I reject.
On the commodity money front, I don’t support those ideas, though of course I think we have to replace our current financial system–it is bankrupt anyway. I want a system that is inherently prevented from financing Ponzi speculation, and I believe one can be designed while still having an essentially free market foundation.
On the commodity idea you suggest, I believe it falls foul of criticisms that Schumpeter made of conventional (Austrian and Neoclassical) thinking on money. It does address the need to enable people already in “the circular process of production” to trade. It does not address the need to finance new ventures that are not “in the circular process”–whether ventures by new entrepreneurs, or new investment by firms which exceeds their retained earnings.
I also see numerous flaws with the multiplicity of trading markets that would be needed to organise the modern barter system you’re suggesting there. The dependence on financial institutions that has currently hobbled industrial capitalism would increase under such a system, with so many fee skimmers sitting between business that we’d simply recreate the current “Masters of the Universe” (or as I prefer to call them, “Morons of the Universe”) as commodity traders.
So I would prefer to limit the damage that our current credit system can generate by redesigning share and housing markets so that it was no longer profitable to speculate on share and house prices. With that possibility of unearned profit removed, I think our financial system would work much better, and leave us just with the inevitable cycles of an industrial system, rather than the imposed cycles and secular crises of a system of speculative finance.
February 9th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Hi Steve,
I have been pondering for a while your idea of a new system. The system where debt is predominantly available for productive businesses. Thus disallowing debt to be available for speculation. I agree totally with the principal of your idea. I fear that the market would ignore such regulations. When a market becomes bullish and investors want a piece of the action, rules get pushed aside.
I have thought of a few examples where what appears to be funding of productive enterprises, is actually funding speculation. This is to show how easy it is to disguise investor actions.
1. Building factories in China. Investors and speculators built projections that showed how demand for goods were growing and that to build a new factory and fit out out with state of the art machinery was a no brainer. The increased demand would “fill up the factory” and make the investment profitably. What really was going on was speculative development. Many factories in China were built simply to onsell to investors. They were built by the developers purely because the developers thought they would sell the completed factories for much more money than their cost.
2. Farming in Australia. For years I have scratched my head as to why anyone would buy a farm in Oz. As land prices have risen, the return on capital has fallen to low single digit levels. When I have discussed this with Agri-bankers and informed farmers. They have one response. The land is in short supply and land values keep rising. Therefore, forget buying a farm because it makes commercial sense. You buy a farm because the asset (land) keeps rising in value.
I have a client who has been developing farms for a profit in the last 10 years. He bought one farm for $3M spent $5M buying water rights and building water infrastructure. He sold the farm for $17M last year. The farm operations themselves are largely break even over the cycle. He has two more similar projects, where he has just finished building the dams and installing all the irrigation equipment.
To sum up. What appears to be adding to the productive capacity of the economy is also very much Ponzi investing.
By the way, I am very bearish on the farm sector. Based on the huge disconnect between proper commercial returns on capital and land values.
I still agree with your sentiment Steve. I just can’t imagine a government that control the bullish beast when he is in full flight.
February 9th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Hi Steve
In your reply to Matt you give your view on ‘speculation on share and house prices’.
Thought you’d be interested in a seminar advertised for this week in the weekend Advertiser (Adelaide’s only daily newspaper).
‘Become Wealthy Through Real Estate’. I accessed their website listed in the ad.
http://www.ezres.com.au/faq.html
From their Q&A section:
‘Historically, what happens investment-wise with residential real estate?
If we go way back in history to the year 1086, we can review the Doomsday Book, commissioned by William I, King of England – and it did not herald the end of the world, even though it sounded that way! It was a schedule of land values across Britain at that time. It has been calculated from that base, that values have increased in England over the last 900 or so years, strangely enough, at around 10% per annum.
It is that compounding effect of property value increases which is so powerful. As each year passes growth occurs on top of growth. If a property is worth $100,000 today, and next year it increases in value to $110,000, then the year after that it increases at 10% again, that is $100,000 plus 10% (or $11,000), taking its new value to $121,000, and on goes the escalation. Its exponential growth accelerating at a faster rate as each year passes.
To use a well worn gardening analogy, it is a little like planting a tree. Early growth is slow, but as it establishes itself it grows faster, and starts to fruit. The fruit drops, and more trees grow and start bearing fruit. Before we know it, we have an orchard. It is a similar kind of compounding effect with property. Property wealth comes ever so slowly at first, but eventually arrives in abundance. But you have to make a start, no matter how small. With prudent property investment all you need is time, the right information, and patience. We make this process very easy for you.’
More ‘encouragement’ from one of the ‘leading’? real estate agents in the same paper when suggesting what people can do with the extra money from the decrease in their mortgage rate plus the ‘handout’:
‘Why not explore the opportunity to buy an investment property? Why not tap into your silver lining?’
They don’t give in easily do they? Interesting that in my local area at least 4 properties in the higher price bracket have been languishing on the market for over 4 months, whereas during the recent real estate ‘boom’ they’d have been snapped up for much higher prices than they were advertised for. Prices for two of these properties were reduced recently, and out of these two properties one has now been taken off the market.
February 9th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Steve,
Thanks for the answer.
I do think, however, that there is some misinterpretation (or different interpretation) of the Austrian School. I can definitely see how their arguments seem “utopian” in that they argue that without the central bank, with a gold standard and without income taxes, we would live in a perfect “equilibrium.” Although I doubt any of the Miseans would state it in such a way, it is implied.
I do disagree with that as well, and prefer to take their arguments of the moral rationale as reason to implement their suggestions. ie. taxation is legalized theft and government does not know any better how to allocate resources than does the indivdual and; inflationism is wrong because it impacts the poor non-asset owning members of society first. I could go on. But it is the moral aspect that draws me in. Despite what guys like Rothbard might have implied, an anarcho-capitalist paradigm would still have large business cycles, winners, losers and crime. I just happen to think that the subject of such injustices would be more fairly distributed than is now.
On the currency discussion. Your issue seems to be that if entrepreneurs do not have access to capital (credit), they will instead choose to do something else, thus weakening productive output. Yet you also say that speculation of profit should be eliminated from the share markets, which are a current source of capital to said entrepreneurs. No start-up company pays dividends, therefore the only motivation for people to buy shares in a start-up (say a mining exploration co) is as speculation for a profit. I don’t see how removal of speculation helps achieve the ends of providing capital to entrepreneurs. In fact, it seems to hinder it.
Additionally, I tend to agree with BullturnedBear on your view of “who should be provided with credit.” Ultimately, only the lender and the borrower can be the determinants of what a productive enterprise would or would not be. Government surely cannot determine this.
In my opinion, the best way to remove speculative excess would be to eliminate many of the safeguards lenders currently operate with. Deposit insurance, ability to be bailed out by government, lax accounting standards (ie. reinstate mark-to-market), etc. It is these, along with government endorsement of certain allocations of capital over others (like Fannie and Freddie promotions of ownership vs. rent) that enable the speculation from the lending side. Decade after decade of rising asset prices enable the speculation from the borrowing side.
Putting up with the price fluctuations between the various commodities used as collateral and as currency would occur under any free-market system. Yes, there will be middle men extracting fees along the way. But I would rather have those fees on my savings than to one day learn that my savings no longer exist.
Ultimately, funding of entrepreneurial activity needs to be provided by savings of individuals or groups of individuals who all think the risk of lending their savings (be it wheat, gold or an acre of property) is worth the anticipated return of their savings plus interest.
I presume you have some way around this?
Matt
February 9th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
On your last point Matt, one objective of “Roving Cavaliers” was to show that under a credit system, it’s not savings that finance investment, but the extension of credit that finances investment, with savings being the by-product. I’ll have to hammer this point at great length when I write my next book, but that misinterpretation of how money comes about is a large part of why I think Austrian (and Neoclassical) views of how the market economy works–and could be made to work better–fail.
I agree though about the dangers of the current system–obviously. And I certainly don’t want a government deciding credit allocation (though for a time that will be necessary given that nationalisation is almost inevitable because of this crisis). But I’ll have to delay explaining why I disagree with the commodity-money vision you’ve suggested otherwise I’ll never get onto that book in the first place. But you will get some ideas about that perhaps from my paper on Say’s Law that I’ve put up on the Research page here.
February 9th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
It’s printed out and sitting in my “IN” bin. Thanks.
February 9th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Hi Steve,
I have read your papers
“use-value, exchange-value, and the demise of marx’s labor theory of value” & “the misinterpretation of marx’s theory of value”. However, without the time and indepth scholarly analysis that you have invested, I can only come to some superficial conclusions.
I have, in the past held a desire to explore Marx’s theories, but never reached the tipping point of taking the “big” step. The recent discussion of what is in essence value, and in particular the labour theory of value has given me the impetuous to commence such a long journey into Marx’s das Kapital.
Steve, are there any supporting papers, publications or backround reading that might assist someone who is interested in taking on the journey of comprehending Marx’s das Kapital?
February 10th, 2009 at 12:28 am
Probably totally off topic, but the problem I think with debt-as-money is that passing around promises renders everything subject to belief. What use is that? Do we really need to measure how much someone wants something in relative terms?
I wonder what the world would be like if things were measured in absolutes. For example man-minutes. What if the price of all products and services was determined by good accountings of how many man-minutes were spent on their production?
I guess the main problem with any system that heavily relies on administration is corruption. But I feel that technology could improve things beyond what the Soviets experienced. It would be an interesting thought experiment to compare an economy of absolute prices rather than our baseless fiat belief system. I would model myself, but I am still building my model software.
February 10th, 2009 at 8:13 am
Hi iconoclast,
Most stuff written on Marx by “Marxists” is rubbish. But there are two outstanding works that make his writings comprehensible, by Roman Rosdolsky (The Making of Marx’s Capital, Pluto Press, London, 1977) and Wilde (Marx and Contradiction, Averbury, Aldershot, 1989).
If you’ve read my papers then for a more detailed exposition my thesis is also on the Research page: Use, Value and Exchange: The Misinterpretation of Marx.
In my opinion, the only people who actually developed Marx’s economic logic after his death–rather than retarding it–were Hilferding, Kalecki, Sraffa, Schumpeter, Goodwin, and Minsky (Baran & Sweezy’s Monopoly Capital also had some redeeming features). But generally I think it’s wise to avoid all post-Marx writers who call themselves Marxists (note that only the first of that list of mine was an avowed Marxist). As an antidote to any of that you might read, get Ian Steedman’s Marx After Sraffa (but be aware that Steedman’s work is necessarily an equilibrium critique of the labor theory of value; a dynamic critique is also feasible, though what a colleague of mine justifiably labelled as modern vulgar marxists think they have written a dynamic defence of the same).
But in short, read Rosdolsky and Wilde, and then embark on the original (possibly with my thesis as a further guide while you do that).
February 10th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Actually, Steve Keen’s pdf.s on Marx here just attempt to read Sraffa’s “coefficients of production” account back into Marx, and don’t seem to consider whether Marx might not have been providing an alternate, somewhat different reading of the same sorts of issues that Keen et alia are trying to address. At any rate, AFAICT, Sraffa’s account is a highly abstract model of an industrial economy, in long-period static equilibrium terms, the sole purpose of which is to criticize theoretically neo-classical marginalist analysis as a systematic account of economics, (and especially the core account of distribution as being determined by the returns to the marginal products of the respective factors of production), and to re-raise the core question of the “nature” of economic value, without claiming to have solved that perennial secular “mystery”. It is not meant to provide an realistic account of actual economies, nor to directly solve the thorny inter-temporal dynamic issues required for such an account.
As for LTV, it’s worth mentioning that some such standard, call it a principle of least effort, is involved in all attempts at economic explanation, (just as the definition of energy as what does work, as with Carnot’s heat engine cycles, is basic to physical explanations), a standard for “measuring” how more is produced with less “resources”. The neo-classical maximalization of individual utility preference functions, based on a conception of “subjective” or psychological utility, would be an alternate approach, which, though mathematically “sweet”, is also rather lacking in realistic plausibility. And, just as commodities of themselves do not produce other commodities, except as a severe elision, so machines do not somehow automatically measure each others output. (At any rate, Steve Keen seems to have missed the connection between Marx’ insistence that capital goods are bought and consumed at value-cost and his deployment of the reproduction schema, since capital goods are depreciated/de-valued at replacement/reproduction cost, which is a key point in Marx’ dynamic explanation. Also that surplus-value accounting differs from the equalization of profits across sectors with differing capital structures,- aside from “surplus-value” not being the same as accounting profits, but including rents, interest, capital gains, professional fees, etc.,- is not a gross mistake on Marx’ part, but precisely a key part of how he explains the growing divergence between the ratios and realizations of the real productive economy and the “market” values of financial “assets”, culminating in the accumulations of “fictitious capital” in vol. 3). Rather than claiming Marx’ deployment of LTV is incoherent, or simply nugatory, perhaps a better “empirical” criticism would be that working in its terms is rather intractable.
For a sharp response to neo-classical criticisms of Marx and their claims about the insolubility of the “transformation problem”, you might google Alan Freeman “If They’re So Rich, Why Ain’t They Smart?”, which also addresses the Sraffan criticisms, which he accepts as an “internal” criticism of marginalism, but points out, when applied to Marx, ends up re-producing marginalist assumptions, as it were, from the other side. (I’d offer a link, but when I dug it out of an old blog archive, where it was recommended to me several years ago, the link no longer worked, when I wanted to send it in an e-mail a while back, so I googled and found another working link, but I’ve found that too has now disappeared, though a found an English version at a site with Japanese? letterings, so it seems to drift about on the internet). Also, you might google Duncan Foley, who is considered a fine technical economist, who’se done work in the vein of Marx’ LTV.
February 10th, 2009 at 10:23 am
I agree that a measuring standard is needed, and I accept Sraffa’s in an equilibrium context; but my PDFs were not on Sraffa but Marx’s own logic, which I argue contradicts the labour theory of value. Thus while you could use labour commanded (as opposed to embodied–Sraffa’s argument supports the former rather than the latter) as a measure of value created, I argue that from first principles Marx’s dialectical logic showed that all inputs to production could be sources of surplus value, not only labour.
This however is a topic that I’ve discussed ad nauseam with academic and other Marxists for twenty years, and I am not going to get into a long discussion of it here. However my interpretation means that one can start simply with the proposition that production generates a physical surplus–without having to attribute that to any particular input (labour), and without hassles about sectors with higher “organic compositions of capital” having lower rates of surplus value, blah blah–and then build from there. Working from an insistence on the link between labour input and surplus output has tied Marxists into intellectual knots that have effectively stymied them from constructing a meaningful dynamic alternative to neoclassical economics.
I agree however that the neoclassical attempt to use utility as a measure was a total failure, and Sraffa’s analysis establishes this on the neoclassical school’s own chosen turf of equilibrium analysis. The same critique applies to the Austrian notion of the “roundaboutness of production”. I’d describe it as mathematically sweet in the same sense as aspartame versus sugar–initially tastes sweet, but has no substance, and then leaves a bitter after-taste. I’ve done my bit to critique their mathematics as well, and there are outright errors in accepted neoclassical ideas (such as supply and demand setting price) as well as the nonlinear complexities they ignore that Sraffa’s analysis established.
February 10th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Steve, thank you very much for your suggested reference reading. One step closer to enlightened knowledge!
john c. halasz, thank you, also for the references you have suggested.
February 10th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
My point here is not dogmatically to flog Marx, but rather to maintain on open, pluralistic dialogue amongst various “Post-Keynesian” perspectives, among which I would included various Neo-Marxist economists, not all of whom are simply “vulgar”, nor technically incompetent.
Now, if I have any academic qualifications, which is old and doubtful, it’s in philosophy, and not economics. I’ll just remark that Hegelian dialectical “logic” is a tricky and often tortuous business, (and is not the same as traditional or formal logic, nor any “axiomatic” system, and the “contradictions” claimed often are not actually such, but rather more like significantly inter-related, but contrastive differences). Matters become even more perplexing when Marx claims to have accomplished a “materialist” transformation of such dialectics, since dialectics is a conceptual matter, and it might be that Marx himself reified his own conceptual scheme into reality, thereby endowing it illegitimately with a causal efficacy, an “inevitable” historical “necessity”. On the other hand, by availing himself of such a dialectical schema, Marx did impose upon himself a certain systematic ordering, in which successive “determinations” are reiterated in an unfolding which “spirals” outward into further implications. Otherwise put, dialectics involves the development of interacting “complexes” in their cross-implications, in a way that is multi-track. Hence, using the then available conceptual means, Marx was trying to delineate dynamics that nowadays we would call “non-linear”.
I did read your pdf.s and I found them unpersuasive. When, e.g., you cite Marx as stating that a machine is bought at value-cost and can’t lose more than that value, he’s stating an obvious truism. But then the equally obvious next step is that its replacement will be bought at reproduction cost, which might have the “same” value, even though “physically” it’s twice as productive. That might not be how you would want to account for the matter, but Marx is being “logically” coherent, and the point of his accounting of value is to trace the dynamics of accumulation. As for “physical” surpluses, Marx would presumably say that they could not provide for a standard of value, since, unless they enter into processes of exchange and subsequent distribution, the “law of value” would not obtain. As for use-values, not only are they not “subjective”, but rather practical, bound up in what people actually produce and the corresponding relations in which they stand to one another, but they are also not simply discrete. Rather they form a nexus which is transformed in the course of the unfolding of capitalist production. But the critical “force” that Marx attempts to derive from the exchange-/use-value distinction involves the way in which, when all use-values are produced for exchange, there is a general inversion between means and ends and a “fetishization” of the endless production of means. There is an echo there of Aristotle’s quasi-aristocratic distain for the “baunasoi”, the merchant/middleman strata, but still more a similar appeal to the “ultimate ends of man”, including those of the working strata, and the “independent” evaluation of use-values, beyond any merely economic “value”. Again, that would go to why the accumulation of human experience, skill, and knowledge, which, yes, amounts to a considerable “factor of production”, but which is a collective and public achievement, should be accounted to private capital, rather than to human labor. (Though the actual integration of science into capitalist production, in the second industrial revolution involving electricity, oil, and chemicals, only began after Marx’ death, though he obviously was anticipating such a prospect. So it suffices little to claim that Marx ignored such technical productivity, in favor of a “fundamentalist” LTV. Obviously, the commanded/demanded labor account was involved in his formulation of LTV. Which is to say, despite the supposed equal exchange of values, he didn’t discount the role of domination/exploitation in the formation of such “economic” values. Though, in its normative, philosophical “foundations”, Marx’ account depends on an account of the alienation/reification of the very world that human beings themselves produces, which, despite his shifting from an “idealist” account in terms of consciousness to a “materialist” account in terms of practical activity, remains rooted in an Hegelian account of the world as an “human” objectification, which is, indeed, questionable.)
Finally, in this respect at least, you might be irritated, even nauseated, by Marxian LTV accounting, whereby the rate-of-profit of concentrated, capital-intensive, market dominating oligopolies is somehow “lower” than in more labor-intensive sectors, when, obviously, “empirically” speaking, such concerns involve high rates-of-profit, nay, rents, whereas labor-intensive concerns involve lower productive surpluses. But that just misses the “whole” essence/appearance “dialectic” at the basis of Marx’ mode of presentation, (Darstellung, though, perhaps literally, putting-there), whereby, the “essence” might be the inverted account of the “appearance”. The discrepancy between profits and “surplus-values” is Marx’ way of expressing that dominant oligopolies are drawing their profits/rents off of labor-intensive sectors. (And nowadays, with MNC “globalization”, that’s scarcely a minor issue). Further, the growing discrepancy between labor-/surplus-value accounting and ostensible rates-of-profit, whereby underlying ratios and relations of exchange and their realizations “internal” to the real productive economy diverge from market prices and especially financial “asset” prices, in accumulating fashion, is crucial to Marx’ account of economic crises. None of this should be far removed from your purposes or concerns, even if expressed in “inefficient” terms.
Now I myself think that the predominant role of corporate oligopolies is a key “fact” of modern capitalist economies, which gives the lie to models of “perfectly competitive” markets, since administered and manipulated prices are a key feature of maintaining such rents, and rent-seeking behavior, rather than mere profit-maximalization, is the actual basis of much corporate behavior. (Alan Blinder, of all people, wrote a book, based on surveying some 200 CEOs on their pricing policies, which showed “empirically” such pricing policies are operative, since maintaining the “operating leverage” of high fixed capital investment is the dominating concern). Of course, this would give the lie to all those fantasies of perfectly self-regulating, perfectly competitive markets that dominate the neo-classical imagination, especially of those omni-present Austrians, who imagine that all the failures of “free” markets are due to their never being “free” enough, which is just to note their idea of “free markets” as a form of reactionary utopianism. But, more relevantly, even “New Keynesian” DSGE models, in which “imperfect competition” resulting in “sticky prices” largely miss the point and miss the mark. (“Imperfect competition” merely results in “sticky prices”, rather than oligopolistic rents amounting to a persistent failure of markets to “clear”, just as labor “markets” only clear through NAIRU doctrine, which is just one of many ways/mechanisms, both ideological and functional, by which the tendency of falling profits is tendentially counteracted through official policy). Often it is claimed that neo-classical models miss the role of financial “markets”, but, I suspect, the reverse is the case: by assimilating the question of value to the formation of nominal market prices, they assume a continuity between production/goods prices and financial asset prices that biases the whole account, erroneously, in favor of the latter.
Well, so much for now, since I’m growing more tired than prolix. But I do have a genuine question to ask you: why do you emphasize private debt-to-GDP ratios rather than the total debt-to-GDP ratio? (Is it because the fairly standard Post-Keynesian account that the government, through CBs buying gov. bonds, “creates” the currency, which enables the collection of taxes, such that government budget constraints are not the same as household/corporate budget constraints? Leaving aside, er, whether banks have any budget constraint.) In the U.S. the total debt/GDP ratio is at least 350%, (though I think the debt of the government to itself is not included, so it is approaching 50% of GDP in publicly held form, though more like 80% in actual accounting). I’m asking because I think there must be a government budget-constraint somewhere, but also because I think exchanging “bad” private debt for “good” public debt must be part of the resolution of the crisis, nationalizing the banking system and disposing of “toxic” assets thereby, reducing household debt, and adopting some form of industrial policy to restructure the real productive economy. I suspect your obsessive focus on economic debt might involve a too “pessimistic” and passive approach to the crisis issues.
Also, I didn’t notice any link on your site to the Levy Institute, the domestic keepers of the Minskyan flame. They publish screeds in fairly accessible form fairly regularly, though perhaps in a U.S.-centric frame. But perhaps some of your more adventurous readers might make the required corrections.
February 11th, 2009 at 4:34 am
Steve, a really basic question from a non-specialist. Where does Adam Smith’s Real Bills Doctrine fit in all this? Does it help to regulate the amount of credit in the system or does it fall down in the entrepreneurial situation?
This is the critique of the Austrian school, from Antal Fekete, that has most attracted me. Mostly because Fekete claims it was the system that led to such benign growth in world trade 1815-1914, with the Bank of England in the role of good guys for once. Any comments on this?
Thanks for the empirical nature of what you’ve written here. It was this claimed success in history – and the effective abandonment of Real Bills (or their crowding out by Treasure Bills) just before the world went into the shock and distress of the 20s and 30s that I guess drew me to this. Fekete of course also has a go at Friedman – but like Rothbard he does want mints to be truly open to gold. What say you?
February 11th, 2009 at 7:35 am
Hi John,
I appreciate your intentions in this debate, but forgive me having an enormous stock on ennui on this issue. I spent about fifteen years debating this stuff with some of the most dedicated Marxist academics on the planet–including Alan Freeman, and Andrew Kliman, plus other names you might not know like Jerry Levy–and in the end I found the whole thing and endless and unwinnable word game.
I now take a pragmatists position on this debate, and there are several aspects to it:
(1) If I accept your arguments that my interpretation of Marx ain’t right, and the labour theory of value still makes sense, then:
I lose a theory of value that I have developed that I have found eminently effective,
I have to revise all the highly successful mathematical models that I’ve developed that forewarned of this crisis, and
I lose a perfect subsitute for the neoclassical theory of value that I’ve found very effective in weaning students off utility maximisation and all that crap–which of course is internally inconsistent in ways that make the LTV look good, and whose adherents deal with this by either not knowing it or ignoring it, in poor contrast to how Marxists have (pardon the pun) laboured over related problems with the LTV.
To put an analogy here, it’s a bit like a world class sprinter being told by a coach that he’d be a much better sprinter if he just attached this ball and chain to his left leg.
No thanks; even if I’m wrong on how I read Marx (which of course I don’t believe I am), I think I can run a bit faster without the ball and chain.
(2) When I was having those arguments, I was a mere Masters student in economics–though I subsequently got two papers published in a leading journal from my Masters, which ain’t bad (I blew getting them into the leading journal–History of Political Economy–because my submission was my first to an academic journal, and I didn’t manage to reduce my argument’s length sufficiently to satisfy the referees, who really did want to see my papers published there; by the time I made my 2nd submission, of my 3rd revision of the one paper into 2 6,000 worders, it went in first time to the number 2 journal).
Now I am one of the world’s best known non-neoclassical economists, and one of the most prominent critics of neoclassical thought, with the intellectual authority and exposure that carries. There are plenty of Marxist scholars who disagree with me vehemently on Marx–Andrew Kliman is one, Anwar Shaikh another. Though Anwar is another kettle of fish–he’s brilliant and has written some magnificent papers where the LTV doesn’t figure–they are ignored by the wider profession including non-neoclassicals, for whom Marx has been so tainted that they don’t even bother thumbing through Das Kapital.
So I can afford to ignore what the remaining band of academic fans of the LTV say. Even if they are right–and of course I believe they are wrong–virtually no-one else in academia is going to listen to them. People will, on the other hand, listen to me.
(3) My take on this dispute feels to me strongly like the experience Max Planck had when he tried, forlornly, to convince his colleagues that his quantum solution to the black body radiation paradox had to be adopted–because nothing else made sense of the data, even though it required abandoning the belief that energy was infinitely divisible that had dominated physics for a century or more. He ultimately concluded that “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”
On the Debt to GDP ratio stuff, I do consider the aggregate level, but the government component follows a different dynamic–rising when private is falling, etc. Given the level we’ve got to now though, the aggregate level does matter because I don’t believe the physical economy has the capacity to service it, whichever sector formally holds it.
And I should link to Levy. I’ll add that at some stage, but I’m too busy to fix up the links stuff right now.
February 11th, 2009 at 8:04 am
Hi Richard,
You know it’s so long since I read any of that debate that I had to check the Wikipedia entry (which is very good) for clarification on some points.
In its essence, the real bills doctrine was trying to establish a real anchor to the money supply–and the same is true of those who want gold standard, even energy standards–in order to control it getting out of hand and causing inflation.
I see all such doctrines as missing the point, in two ways:
(1) As Graziani so eloquently and simply put it, the essence of a credit economy is that it uses a valueless token to facilitate trade. It is therefore in its essence that money doesn’t have a real anchor.
(2) The real problem in finance is not the issuance of money but the accumulation of debt. That in turn is driven by the public being seduced by speculative bubbles, and so long as the capital instruments in society make this seduction possible, any financial system will ultimately succumb to it. That’s why my reform proposals have almost nothing to do with the finance sector itself and everything to do with how we define capital assets–the ownership instruments for shares and houses.
So the doctrine is an interesting intellectual curiosity to me, and doubtless one that will be thrown up as “the solution”, but I believe that it misses the fundamental nature of credit.
February 11th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Something weird is happening on the Norwegian stock exchanges. American investors are pouring money in, I see it every day. I think we are getting closer to a potential run on the dollar, unless the US economy show any sign of recovery soon.
February 11th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Thanks for the reply, which helps me to place your ideas – and Fekete’s – a little more, for further study one day.
As far as the 1815-1914 period is concerned, do you
a) not think it was up to much?
b) not believe its good aspects had anything to do with gold + Real Bills?
Fekete makes much of the fact that Real Bills are self-liquidating, after 91 days, through payment in gold, which means that credit does not expand without reason, at least if an entity like the BofE in the glory days of Empire – not sure how that bit plays in Oz! – makes sure everyone in world trade plays by the rules. Do you think the self-liquidating part makes any difference to the ‘valueless token’ point? Or are you saying the rules always will be bent by the unscrupulous?
I won’t bang on further about this – I don’t know enough to do so. But it was the historical precedent and the escape from 100% gold-backed currency, that seemed to allow benign forms of growth, that I found instinctively attractive.
February 11th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Hi Richard,
The 19th century had a serious financial crisis every two or so decades. Note the quote from Marx in Debtwatch 31: there was a serious crisis in 1857 that spurred Marx on to writing his rough draft of Capital (the Grundrisse). Gold-based systems and private paper money alike (mainly in the USA) were not bastions of financial stability. The root cause was always there: profitable debt-financed speculation on assets and “out there” ventures.
February 11th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
I would like to thank StilesBC for linking me to this site from his site. Steve, you are one of the few people that describes banking the way I understand it to work and not the way that money and banking told it to us back in college. As I have studied over the years, I have completely disregarded that system in favor of one that actually considers bank capital instead of bank reserves. It is my opinion that you can’t describe what a bank does as lending money because the depositors in the bank don’t actually give up the use of their funds when a bank makes a loan. I consider it instead, acting as surety, thus the bank giving up its capital to the system in event its customer fails to pay. The attraction of reserves in retrospect is one of the problems in the US today, as the 2 big banks most in trouble incurred sizable fed funds liabilities in comparison to their own deposits, thus other banks needing to lend surplus funds to them to balance the books. Being the banks pretty much knew Citi had lost its capital, they were surely not going to give Citi back its deposits. Wachovia was such a plum because they had deposits and most likely were the healthiest big bank in the US from what I have been able to gather, except for the fact they screwed up and bought that California lender. I believe had they been a NY bank, they would have probably been saved.
In any case, the problem is that who the banks owe and who owes them are 2 different groups of people and the only way this works is if the people that have money give up their liquidity to those that owe the banks. They can’t come right out and tell the people that have accumlated cash and no debt that they are going to bail out the banks by stealing their cash balances. It is the only way balance the books.
Also, I don’t buy into this print money game. The Fed is buying an asset of the banking system with every dime they are putting out there. The Fed is a bank too and has to make its books balance. Go to their site sometime and read their loan documents and you will find that is being reported is greatly exaggerated. Seems that settling accounts only happens about 2 minutes a day and all this money isn’t in the bank during the day. Also, there isn’t any 100% lending. Remember, you take $1 million in assets out of the banking system and replace it with $1 million in cash, the bank still has the same liabilities.
Lastly, I saw somewhere that in the old days, bank reserves were quite often 50% or more. I am sure that there wasn’t a lot of wholesale lending because there wasn’t a lot of safe lending and it was quite likely a banker was going to have to show his hole card. I am in Texas and if you aren’t a NY bank or a big bank, they will close you down in the US if you sneeze. They will let some crap operate for a long time, but not a middle sized bank the politicians can give to their big bank buddies like JPM Chase. Banks holding the cash has a lot more to do with being able to settle accounts and not have their solvency called into question and the fact that they no longer have the resources to act as surety or cannot act as surety to the fools that need money now.
February 14th, 2009 at 12:30 am
“If I accept your arguments that my interpretation of Marx ain’t right, and the labour theory of value still makes sense, then:
I lose a theory of value that I have developed that I have found eminently effective”
Hmm! So what is Steve Keen’s value theory? which of your papers do I have to read to find out about it?
Just one more remark on Marx’s LTV: Fred Moseley also has a range of papers on how Marx’s value theory should be read, which he calls the “Macro-monetary interpretation”, using a lot of textual evidence (and, BTW, he also thinks that Rosdolsky’s book is one of the few correct ones on Marx’s value theory) – do you consider Moseley’s stuff to be worthless too?
I’m only a beginner in this domain, but I’ve found his stuff persuasive. (http://home.mtholyoke.edu/~fmoseley/)
February 14th, 2009 at 7:26 am
I debated this stuff with Fred about 15 years ago on an academic Marx discussion list; he wasn’t citing Rosdolsky then (I was), so maybe his views have altered. I’ll check his site at some stage, but largely I found that debate futile.
The one person I learnt from in it was Chris Sciabarra, a Marx scholar who is also a scholar of Hayek and Ayn Rand, and who published an excellent book on the utopian slants in both Marx and Hayek–entitled Marx, Hayek and Utopia. Well worth a read.
I summarise my approach to value theory in “A Marx for Post Keynesians”.
February 14th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Hi kmb,
Having browsed the latest paper by Fred there, he’s still starting from the premise that the LTV is correct and it’s just a case of working out which variable Marx took as fixed to be able to solve the transformation problem…
Sigh. Let me be pragmatic here. The purpose of a theory of value, from an economist’s point of view, is to be able to build a coherent model of the economy using it. The neoclassicals, with their utility-based theory of value, got that right–even though their theory is in fact inconsistent as soon as you push it any distance, as obviously I’m aware, the point is that they could move from the proposition that value reflects marginal cost and marginal benefit and build a theory of the economy on top of it.
A crap theory, full of holes to be sure, but many of them resulting from the fact that they wanted to reach preconceived destinations from that theory of value, and couldn’t do it without putting convoluted restrictions on the theory of value. For instance, that’s how one can interpret the Cambridge Controversies. They wanted to get a relative scarcity theory of income determination from their theory of value, but to do so they have to assume constant capital to labour ratios across all industries–yes, precisely the same thing that Marxists have to assume to not cause contradictions in the bog-standard labour theory of value.
If on the other hand they had been content to put up with income distribution NOT reflecting relative scarcity (and marginal product) of the “factors of production”, they could have proceeded from that point. That they didn’t had more to do with ideology than logic.
Compare the LTV approach. People who still take this seriously haven’t even got to first base–they still don’t have an agreed solution to the dilemma of varying ratios of capital to labour across industries.
My perspective–that Marx had a dialectical analysis of the commodity that reaches the conclusion that all inputs to production can be sources of surplus value gets this problem out of the way from day one: it’s not a problem in fact, and all I need do to build a model of production is have production generate a surplus. Whether it’s higher or lower in industries with higher or lower “organic compositions of capital” doesn’t matter a hoot.
In this sense, my approach is no different to most Post Keynesians, who likewise don’t worry about where surplus comes from and simply model a productive economy and go from there (in another sense, it lets me organise a theory of price rather more coherently than Post Keynesians can–though some of them can achieve much the same result–by arguing that there are multiple price levels in capitalism, so that the pricing of capital assets differs from the pricing of standard commodities, etc.).
So the irony for me is that Marxists who obsess about the LTV haven’t managed to build models of the behaviour of capitalism (beyond the usual claims about a tendency for the rate of profit to fall), whereas Post Keynesians who don’t so obsess have.
This is ironic because a theory of value is supposed to make this task easier rather than harder. But as Steedman claimed from a very different perspective, the insistence on a theory of value has stymied the development of non-neoclassical economics by Marxists, rather than advancing it.
From what I read of Fred’s most recent analysis, that has not changed. At a time when Karl would have been raising the ramparts of logic against the financial crisis, his followers are still trying to solve the contradictions of a book published in 1894.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:45 am
Steve
One thing that troubles be about these theories of value is that the labour theory and the utility theory both seem incapable of accounting for information, as embodied in cognitive labour, and intellectual property.
The most significant move over the last century has been the replacent of materials with information. This information is created by cognitive labour, and, is embodied in physical designs of machines, and in more and more cases electronic processor programs (firmware and software).
Few western capitalists seem to have even a rudimentary knowledge of the significance of this move.
Exceptions to this have been Bill Gates and Microsoft, the Japanese rise to prominence post war, and the Chinese rise taking place at present.
Strange processes have occurred which seem to confuse this issue completely; the “Y2K bug”, the “dot com boom”, and the open source software movement, to name a few.
The substitution of manual labour by smaller amounts of cognitive labour has been an ongoing process. Has there been much effort applied to this problem by any branch of economics?
February 16th, 2009 at 3:43 am
I was working inside the dotcom boom the whole way, experiencing it from the first exhibitions and all the way to after the bust first hand. The bubble was just the period from 1999-2000 as everyone was investing to handle the transformation to the Y2K. The Chinese have an engineering spirit that is a matter of temperament, similar to the Japanese or Korean people, someone like Bill Gates are much more Chinese than American in his temperament, that holds true for most computer nerds, I think it’s genetic.
February 17th, 2009 at 2:17 am
Dear Steve,
Thank you for your long answers. I’ve started reading your paper (A Marx for PKs) and find it very stimulating. As I said I’m pretty much a newcomer to the whole field, so I don’t want to (and can’t) pass final judgement on the LTV at this point.
Just one remark: I find your last paragraph (“At a time when Karl would have been raising the ramparts of logic against the financial crisis, his followers are still trying to solve the contradictions of a book published in 1894.) rather unfair towards economists who are working in a Marxist (or “Marxian”, whatever) framework.
I think there are lots of people (who are usually characterized as Marxists) who are doing valuable empirical analysis on real-world capitalist economies. Actually, the only people I know of who have provided convincing explanations of the present crisis are either post-keynesians (like you, or people at the Levy Institute, who pretty much foretold the crisis) or people who use a more or less marxian conceptual apparatus, say like David Kotz, James Crotty, Robert Brenner, Leo Panitch and others.
For me, it seems that these people are doing valuable work, whether they have a complete model of capitalist economies is of course another question.
In short, I think it’s a bit harsh to say that Marxists do nothing but argue over the contradictions of Das Kapital.
February 17th, 2009 at 7:00 am
Yes it was; there are certainly some academics who acknowledge a debt to Marx (pardon the pun!) in their writings and do useful work today. I was thinking more of the crowd around what is called the “Temporal Single System” interpretation of Marx.
But most Post Keynesians, even when directly influenced by Marx, simply don’t want to acknowledge any contribution Marx might have made for fear of getting dragged into “The Value Wars”. Thus you can read papers by, for example, Randy Wray, without ever finding a reference to Marx–even though Minsky was his PhD supervisor and he was influenced by Marx.
Why? Partly because of the American reaction to the McCarthyist period, but partly also because of the amount of time wasted within Marxian circles on trying to solve the Transformation Problem, or the reduction of every given crisis to being a manifestation of the Tendency Of The Rate Of Profit To Fall. These irresolvable debates have the impact that many younger Post Keynesians never read Marx, because their lecturers discourage them from doing so in fear that they might be sucked into that vortex.
As a result, the many good insights in Marx and foundations for a decent way of thinking about the economy are lost. Hence my last paragraph–I reckon far more damage has been done to Marx by his erstwhile friends than his enemies. It’s a great pity.
February 17th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I read it all, and it seems to make sense. I also read your 1995 paper on Minsky modeling of instability.
I understand that with just market (no government), the onset of high interest rates can destabilize the system.
When you add government, adjusting the interest rate is a ham-handed impact on the economy, and cannot restore an already de-stabilized economy.
So, I think we are already de-stabilized. The current plan (a la Kensian) to throw money at the problem, may not work (or probably not work), making us more in debt with few long term benefits.
So how do we get out of this mess? Hit the debt reset button like the Jewish Torra calls for every 49 years, all debts forgiven, and start over?
Is there no other solution?
February 17th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Hi gcjblack,
Pretty much I expect (the Tora solution, that is). If we had merely stopped at the debt to GDP levels at the onset of the Great Depression, then paying them down gradually (and reducing some of them via bankruptcy) may have done the trick (hopefully minus a World War…). But with probably more than twice as much debt compared to GDP as in 1930, we have a “Biblical” problem to which the solution must also be Biblical in scale.
February 20th, 2009 at 9:45 am
[...] I argued in the Roving Cavaliers of Credit, financial deregulation was based on a misguided belief that the financial system operated like an [...]
February 20th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Steve,
I’m wishing to clarify an issue with the money multiplier calculations. Are you aware of the educational animation “Money as Debt”? (It is on youtube) This short film has a sequence showing the bank’s money multiplier resulting from the fractional reserve ratio. However they show that the bank’s (high powered money) deposits get multiplied twice. That is, a ‘Bank A’s deposit of $1,111.12 in the central bank permits Bank A to loan (1,111 x 9) $10,000. Which gets redeposited, this customer deposit in turn provides (using the reserve ratio 9:1) funding for a secondary loan of $9,000 (0.9 x $10,000) and reserve of $1,000. Which permits a tertiary deposit of $9,000 and loan of $8,100 etc. They show the process continuing until the money created approaches $100,000. All this from a central bank deposit of just $1,111.
Is there something wrong with this calculation? , other than Basil Moore’s finding thanks loans come before deposits?
If this were accurate (and there is a 10:1 reserve requirement) would the ratio of money stock to central bank reserves be in excess of 100:1? Even higher because of Moore’s finding? Or am I getting my money (M0, M1, M2) mixed up?
I’m trying to verify their finding that:
1) Money is debt (or near enough all debt); And
2) The debt can only be paid off with money that inturn creates more debt (hence cannot be payed back).
February 21st, 2009 at 5:09 am
Anarcho,
I realize I’m really late with this post, but just wanted to point out what I think might be incorrect with your argument re: Austrians.
There is not a contradiction with entrepreneurial activity. In a non-government-controlled system, there would be no banking as is known today. The contract that I sign with a bank when I give them my deposits would be honored instead of flaunted…ie they would simply store my property(gold/grain/money/whatever), not lend it out (I would pay them for this service). They may eventually issue banknotes to ease transactions instead of gold, but it would be necessary to have full backing in the vaults. There would be a natural check from excessive lending because other banks would demand specie payment instead of banknotes if the excessive lending occurred. Further, with no FDIC, depositors would be more vigilant in monitoring their banks instead of assuming deposits are insured and letting the banks do whatever they want with the property. Some ‘entrepreneurial’ banks would maybe try to game the system, but they would eventually fail, just like many entrepreneurs fail in any endeavor. The entrepreneurship would be shown in a number of other ways (ie: creating better distribution, ensuring the safety of deposits in better ways, etc.)
This says nothing about credit. There would still be credit in this world, just not ‘artificial’ credit. I would be in charge of deciding to lend my money, banks would not be in charge of lending my money. This would result in a higher nominal cost of capital than we have today, but would also result in a more effective allocation of resources. There would still maybe be times of unwarranted enthusiasm with lending like Steve talks about, but this unwarranted enthusiasm (ie misallocation), would manifest itself in losses, which puts a stop to the ‘bubble’.
And to earlier points, there is nothing magic about gold, it is just what evolved into a store of value over time (likely due to certain physical characteristics). Who knows, some other element may evolve as the next ‘currency’. It all depends what person B will accept in a transaction. In times of disaster, all the gold in the world won’t do much good if I don’t have food. The crucial (maybe unfortunate point) is that there is NO way to absolutely, positively, without a doubt store value over time. If I don’t consume now, I’m taking a risk that my savings become worthless, no matter in what form I save. People betting on gold are just hoping that gold becomes the standard again. Maybe it will be moon-rock.
Also, regarding an earlier post regarding cycles in ancient Rome. The cycles were created by the government debasing currency. They did not have paper money, but the government diluted the gold content of coins, which is the same thing.
All that being said, thanks to Steve for an extremely interesting piece and website. I look forward to reading much more of your work.
February 21st, 2009 at 6:50 am
Dear Water,
I’m sure Anarcho will have his own take here, but let me make a few points as well.
One point of my paper was that as soon as you allow any lending whatsoever–ie as soon as the role of the banks goes beyond storing your gold to issuing loans–then you have a credit system where any link between “specie” and the money supply will be broken. One implicit–sometimes explicit–proposition in 100% money arguments is that the banks only lend out other people’s deposits, so that “deposits create loans”. Therefore there is supposed to be some limit on banks’ behaviour–”they can’t lend what they don’t have”.
Instead, when it is acknowledged that the act of lending creates deposits, so that the causation is reversed, then any 100% money scheme that allows lending will break down–not into a crisis necessarily, but it will allow the endogenous expansion of money independent of the supply of gold, or whatever other “specie” is used.
Now we have never in the past had a “banking” system that has been restricted simply to storing gold and charging the owners a fee for that storage. What the Austrian view of how capitalism should be, as you describe it and as I’ve seen it described in their literature, is a capitalism without credit–i.e. a form of capitalist system that has never previously existed.
Therefore their program is a revolutionary one–far more so than what I am proposing, which is to acknowledge that credit will always exist in a capitalist economy, and to redefine two of our key markets (housing and shares) so that the possibility of leveraged-based profits there is reduced. The Austrian revolution would almost certainly break down.
Even if the revolution was maintained–so that banks became only storage depots for gold–the vision that each of us would somehow become venture capitalists, deciding how to lend our gold out in return for a share of the profits in whatever entrepreneurial venture we decided to fund and that this system wouldn’t lead to a financial crisis I also see as ill-founded. It is almost saying that we’ll have a better system if the banks cease being banks, but all of us become banks instead. If a depositor in this world gave an investor gold, it would be in return for a document promising an interest-rate return on that loan. The role of banking in this free market system would then evolve amongst the agents who were initially told that they couldn’t be banks. I don’t believe you can keep that genie in the bottle.
Even if you did, there is then the issue of how production is actually extended in capitalism by innovation. This vision of a specie-exchanging world works OK for a given technology and a constant population. But what happens when a firm needs to expand with a, say, 5 or 8 year investment horizon for a new technology or a new factory producing the same old goods? If you could actually enforce this system, inevitably only short term projects would receive loans of gold. That’s not how production or innovation work–just ask an engineer like Brightspark.
Or ask an Austrian economist like Schumpeter. This need to finance innovation is, as he explains very well in The Theory of Economic Development, is a reason why the money supply expands endogenously in a credit-based system. To try to prevent by a 100% Money, or specie-only system, would drastically reduce the capacity of a capitalist system to innovate, when this is one of the main appeals that capitalism has over potentially rival social systems like, well, socialism. If there wasn’t any innovation worth speaking of, as for example in the old Soviet Union, then what is the argument in favour of the class division of society, where capitalists get the profits from the means of production and workers are excluded from it?
Schumpeter also explained very well why this legitimate and necessary aspect of a credit system lead to an endogenous expansion of the money supply. In my mathematical model, I have simply given expression to how that works.
For those reasons, I see the Austrian vision of how a capitalist system should be reorganised as anti-evolutionary on several important fronts–yet the main appeal of Austrian economics over neoclassical was its emphasis upon the evolutionary development of capitalism, the so-called “spontaneous order” argument that is a decent and sensible addition to economic thinking. But if you need to stop the evolution of a banking system–to police it out of existence in effect, so that loans were never allowed–and you suppress the rate of innovation by a lack of appreciation of the nexus between innovation and an expansion in the money supply–then you have a revolutionary program that is based on rejecting its own core.
Another such contradiction I see in Austrian logic is though its analysis of capitalism emphasises disequilibrium, there is an implicit belief that the system will never move too far from equilibrium–something I see you saying in the proposition that “There would still maybe be times of unwarranted enthusiasm with lending like Steve talks about, but this unwarranted enthusiasm (ie misallocation), would manifest itself in losses, which puts a stop to the ‘bubble’”.
Instead, once you properly acknowledge that a dynamic process won’t necessarily converge to equilibrium, you also need to be aware that such a system can and normally does move a large way from equilibrium. I work in “Far From Equilibrium” dynamics, and I think my appreciation of how such systems can be systemically stable but dramatically removed from equilibrium–as in for example a Van der Pol model of an electric circuit–is partly why I just don’t buy the Austrian belief that, even though the system necessarily wouldn’t operate where “the supply and demand curves intersect, it wouldn’t be too far removed from them either, therefore we can continue thinking about markets using supply and demand equilibrium analysis, so long as we don’t actually believe that everything happens where the curves cross, like the neoclassicals do…”.
Sorry to put words in a hypothetical Austrian mouth, but I’ve yet to see an Austrian analysis that fully comes to grips with how dynamic systems actually operate, so that behind a lip service to dynamics and disequilibrium I find a belief that supply and demand curves and comparative static processes suffice to describe how a capitalist system operates. I see that as being based on a lack of appreciation of dynamics, which is an ironic by-product of the Austrian refusal to do mathematical modelling.
So I expect that even if we had an Austrian revolution and 100% money, if it succeeded it would feel no different to the Soviet Union–little innovation, great inequality and no excuse for it–and it would almost surely break down into a credit-based system without any limits on how that credit was deployed, so that asset-price speculation would be as good a use for credit as any. We would then be back in the 19th century, when there was a major financial crisis every 20 or so years. I agree that the shorter time span between crises would mean they were less extreme, but their frequency would once again let the class conflicts over whether the system should exist at all to rise once more. I don’t see that as a vision of social progress.
February 21st, 2009 at 11:36 am
Hi Steve – thanks for the interesting response.
Your comments on innovation, etc are quite thought-provoking. But,(if I am thinking about this correctly), I don’t think an Austrian-model banking system precludes credit at all. There would still be lending. There would still be bonds and bond funds. There could even be more complex debt instruments like mortgage-backed securities, etc. The difference is that the government/banking system wouldn’t be getting in the way and artificially lowering the cost of credit. And, there would still be venture capital funds (as well as equity markets) that would be responsible for funding 5-8 year capital projects, etc. But, in fairness, there would probably be less ‘speculative’ investing than currently (because of the higher cost of capital), so less innovation would result. On the other hand, one could argue that maybe all of the ‘important’ innovation would still happen because the scarcity of capital would result in more innovation. If I can’t rely on cheap capital to build a new factory, maybe I need to invent other ways to increase production with my existing factors of production. (I’m kind of talking in circles here…)
Your point on the “far from equilibrium” dynamics is even more interesting to me, and I don’t know enough to refute (or support) it. I tend to agree with you that even in this type of system there could be ‘collective euphoria’, etc which would push the system far from equilibrium and result in a mis-allocation of capital, similar to our current situation. As you said, this is not a vision of social progress. I need to think about this more.
Thanks again.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Hi Water,
Thank you.
On your note that the Austrian system would allow credit, that’s my problem with the Austrian model of how a free market financial system should operate. If lending is allowed at all (and of course it must be given the laissez faire bias of Austrian thought in general) then it won’t be a commodity money or 100% money system at all. Instead, it will be a credit-based system that fits within the analysis I gave in “The Roving Cavaliers”. It therefore won’t behave as Austrians expect with a tendency to equilibrium–it will in fact be more like the 19th century trade cycle, with a finance-induced Depression every 20-30 years.
A lot of the weaknesses I see in the Austrian position on finance relates translating thinking that is only moderately wrong about genuine commodity markets–where there is an almost instantaneous exchange of money for goods–to finance markets, where there is an instantaneous creation of money and debt, but then a long-lived relationship between debtor and the bank.
It is also well worth reading Schumpeter as you think about the innovation point. If you want a quick precis before diving into the book The Theory of Economic Development, check my lectures on Managerial Economics at my Debunking Economics website. I make heavy use of Schumpeter in those lectures, especially in relation to both innovation and the nexus between the endogenous expansion of credit and the funding of innovation.
February 23rd, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Very interesting discussion.
All these posts rely on each person’s imaginary construction of what would happen in a free market for money and banking. (By ‘free market’ I mean a market governed by the contracts of the parties, not government controls on money and banking such as policies of lowering interest rates, required reserves, bailouts and so on.
Those proposing various governmental interventions are supposing that the free market would produce negative outcomes that make the expected positive outcomes of interventions worthwhile.
Yet we have no knowledge from history of what a free market in banking or money would look like, because governments have been actively intervening in them for the last 200 years, virtually always on the side of credit creation in excess of reserves held in specie, from which governments benefit in various ways. For a history of such interventions, see Rothbard ‘What Has Government Done to our Money?’.
Steve Keen’s thesis that the creation of credit is mostly a commercial activity still leaves open the question what would happen without government’s various schemes to permit and encourage lending unbacked by money in specie, to promote confidence in the banks by compulsory deposit insurance, to require a certain level of reserves, and to bail them out in a crisis.
How do we know that, absent the current policy framework, such credit creation would not be greatly curtailed, as I suspect it would be?
Let’s cut to the chase. What are the objections to a free market in money and banking? To answer that, we have to answer, what would it look like?
To start with, if government’s legal monopoly on creating money were abolished, and everyone had an equal right to create their own, then I could print Peter Hume dollars, and Steve could print Steve Keen dollars – as many as we liked. The problem would be getting Harvey Norman to accept them for a wide-screen TV.
Thus the market would evolve forms of money based on what is most widely acceptable: most probably gold and silver. But if it were something else, fine. None of the government’s business, we are supposing.
Banks would be free to back up their loans with 100% money in specie, or to hold only a fraction in reserve. They would not be allowed to say they hold 100% if they hold less, because of the common law against fraud. People could choose whatever level of backing suited them: even a variable one if they agreed to it.
Those who wanted the most security would deposit their hard-earned in a bank with 100% reserve. A run on the bank need not concern these depositors.
Those seeking higher returns and with a higher tolerance of risk, could choose to deposit their money with a fractional reserve bank, knowing that if there is a run on the bank they might lose out.
There would be no reason or justification for the government to back up those at risk from fractional reserve, because the risk would be on those who knowingly undertook it – unlike the situation now, where the effect of government involvement is to impose the risk of FRB on everyone whether they like it or not.
It is true that the FRB banks could increase the supply of money substitutes, and that this would generate, in Austrian terms, both inflation and malinvestment. But the difference from the situation now, is that losses from and bankruptcies of fractional reserve banks would provide a corrective feedback loop that is missing from the current government-backed system. The effect of such negative feedback over time would probably be to establish by custom prudential limits of minimal reserves, which would tend to protect the bank from bankruptcy at the suit of creditors, and thus to protect the depositors. I suspect the fraction held in reserve would be far far higher than the minimal reserves dictated by government, because government has only the weakest and most attenuated interest in not constantly inflating the currency – namely, the electoral processs.
What objections could there be to this simple, ethical and practical solution?
February 24th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
OK – I see that the majority of the money in circulation is created by an electronic ledger entry in a bank based on the promise of the debtor to repay. So the bank has lent out money that it never had.
I also read a lot about the banks being insolvent – too many bad debts. There are runs on banks. But if the money was never there in the first place and repayment of debt actually extinguishes the money – where is the problem? Not all of the debts are going bad (surely) and the banks continue to receive interest repayments on the other loans (of money they never really had either). So surely the banks should be fine … so long as they have at least enough reserves to repay the depositors?
On gold. I seem to have come to the definition of money as the recognized unit accepted for the removal of debt. The value of gold comes from its intrinsic lack of value. You dont eat it. It does not provide shelter. But it does not corrode or get used up. It can not be manufactured nor created nor faked. It makes a useful token or representation of money/wealth. It does not magically solve the problems of banking or finance. The problems come from the natural desire for man to want more. That is not in itself wrong or evil. But it is accompanied by a general level of selfishness and inability to understand delayed consequences of actions amongst others. The failure to understand exponential growth leads to exponential growth of problems.
February 24th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Peter Hume:
Steve Keen has already answered these Austrian-style objections above and elsewhere. Without presuming to speak for him, I’ll just offer my own account. In the first place, credit is endogenous to the real production/business cycle, and is required to get it going: it’s not merely a matter of the banking/financial system. As for savings producing investments, well, that’s chicken-and-egg; investments in technical improvements in capitals stocks increase productivity and output, raising the real distributable surplus-product, from which extended credit/debt for such investment can be readily paid back, and then some, leaving increased profits, lowered output costs and even higher real wages. So investments can just as well produce savings and increase the supply of loanable funds.
If lending were restricted to “hard money” savings,- (and in the U.S., at least, “hard money lending” actually refers to severely predatory lending practices at usurious rates, in which the lender is actually speculating on the borrower going bust)-, then the production cycle might not even get going and would be slow to develop, if at all, a highly sub-optimal outcome, since, even with the dysfunctions that are likely to occur at the end of a production/business cycle, the increases in the capacity for generating real distributable output, real wealth in any relevant sense, is far greater than the liabilities involved in cleaning up the mess. Further, a common government issued currency not only regularizes the collection of taxes and facilitates transactions, but provides a uniform medium of accounts, which economizes on information analysis and reduces information asymmetries.
A privately based and thus multiple monetary system would greatly increase the costs of informational surveillance, (which ordinary savers and tradesmen would not be able to afford and would be disadvantaged by), and would reduce the transactional efficiency of credit-underwriting,, and, likely, increase the level of failures in the financial system, due to the difficulties in keeping track of it through multiple systems and thus the increased rate of errors. Finally, the idea that government could be completely removed from the functioning of a market system is a fantasy, since governments provide the regulatory framework of laws by which markets function, including, er, contract enforcement, as well as public goods, such as transport infrastructure, that private interests fail to produce or under-produce.
And opposing the economy to the political realm as if they were easily abstractable amounts to adding apples to oranges, not to mention stigmatizing political processes for being, er, “democratically” responsive, whereas market would be valorized precisely in that they fail to respond to ordinary people’s needs and interests is a weirdly inverted account of what would be “simple, ethical and practical”. Besides, far from never having been tried, something like Austrian proposal for banking were in force in 19th U.S.A. from the time of Jackson onward, and the result was frequent financial panics and the economy being stuck in sub-optimal stagnation “equilibrium” for almost half the time, compared to 20% of the time in post-war U.S. recessions, (though this one will be far longer and more severe).
February 24th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
John, I couldn’t have put it better myself.
Unless, that is, I put in a few more paragraph breaks!
For the sake of future readers, I might edit your entry now to break that long run of text into segments.
February 24th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Go ahead, no problemo. It’s been done before, though not always, on reflection, where I think they might have gone. Sometimes I just forget to paragraph, trying to pick my brains in one continuous stream of thought, while trying to correct for all the typos.
February 25th, 2009 at 1:08 am
Is that the best you can do?
So basically, the justification for the state’s intervention in money and banking, for imposing fractional reserve and its empires of scamming, the bubbles, the busts, the permanent inflation and the economic disorder it spreads, the consequential crises, the massive diversion of capital into unproductive activities, the widespread bankruptcies, unemployment, inflicted poverty, social dislocation and injustice on a massive scale, the hardship, bailouts for billionaires, handouts for political favourites, the use of inflation-taxing to fund imperial military adventures with hundreds of thousands of deaths, the state’s periodic destruction of literally billions and trillions of dollars worth of capital, not to mention the encouragement it gives to Marxists and their demonstrated genocidal stupidity, is so the state can ‘help’ us all by its wisdom in economic management which we need to avoid ‘sub-optimal’ economic conditions? I can’t believe anyone would say something so thoughtless.
Let’s get this straight. We all have to put up with the state permanently defrauding the population by inflating the money supply so it can take a cut through granting privileges to banks to co-loot the population, because of the economic benefits it brings, is that right? You answer yes, don’t you? Answer please? Please don’t evade the question and answer it directly on point.
Assuming you answer yes, then prove it. How would you know whether the costs outweighed the benefits?
Without government imposing fractional reserve banking on the entire population against their will, the “the production cycle might not even get going” – no-one would produce anything! – and we would all lie down in the gutters with our tongues hanging out, dying for the want of the state’s wisdom and capacity? You have decided on behalf of other people that it would be better if the state fuck their lives up on a massive scale, because the benefit “is far greater than the liabilities involved in cleaning up the mess”. Has it ever occurred to you they might be better off without your unsolicited assistance?
And that’s if you’re right. But what if you’re wrong? What if it’s not ture that no-one could produce something unless we had the state there to create real wealth out of thin air by forcibly taking money from A and giving it to B? This is not economics, it’s voodoo. And how do you know? Don’t tell me, let me guess … you’ve done a mathematical equation. Maybe you should put your head out of your garret every now and then to check what effect your theories are having in the real world.
But it goes on.
‘If lending were restricted to “hard money” savings’….’ (I didn’t say it should be, only that people should be free to choose),
this ‘actually refers to severely predatory lending practices’.
The lenders are so evil they actually eat the flesh of the borrowers. So answer me this: what is ‘predatory’ supposed to mean, apart from the fact that you obviously disapprove? Someone has a gun at the head of the borrower forcing him to enter the contract? Admit the term is arbitrary. You have provided no objection to freedom of contract in money and banking but hoary old anti-economic moralizing that lending is morally evil that and that has its roots in millennia-old religious blind prejudice.
How do you distinguish between the fair price and the market price in any given transaction? Answer please?
“A privately based and thus multiple monetary system would greatly increase the costs of informational surveillance…”
What’s that supposed to mean? Surveillance by whom? If by the state, that’s an argument in favour of freedom, not against it.
As for the idea that the state’s forcible monopolistic intervention is to reduce the costs to market participants, the basic idea is that the state is forcing them to accept a benefit, is that right? They are too stupid to know what transaction to enter into but the state has a kind of super-competence, that imbues it with knowledge, capacity and wisdom above mortal men. This is not economics, it’s blind worship of central planning despite more disproofs in theory and in practice than you could shake a stick at.
Let’s have no pretence that the primary purpose of the state’s involvement is anything other than to increase its own power as against the rest of society. Any advantage to society is far outweighed by the disadvantages. Because if what you were saying were true, people would voluntarily pay for these services, and wouldn’t have to be forced into them, wouldn’t they?
“Finally, the idea that government could be completely removed from the functioning of a market system is a fantasy, since governments provide the regulatory framework of laws by which markets function…”
I never said it could be. I defined a free market as one governed by the contracts of the parties, remember? Besides, the fact that the government has forcibly excluded competition to provide itself a monopoly in one area – law-making – is hardly reason for doing it in another – mney and banking.
You are providing arguments in favour of a free market in money and banking, not against.
“…as well as public goods, such as transport infrastructure, that private interests fail to produce or under-produce.”
Just because someone wants to get a particular good without paying the market price for it, doesn’t mean it’s ‘under-produced’.
What about surfing holidays for me? Can I get the state to force other people to pay for them? Why not? They are “under-produced” aren’t they? The state pays for football fields and velodromes as ‘public goods’.
What about sex? That’s a public good isn’t it? Why not? There was a case recently in Australia of people claiming the costs of visiting brothels – health massage – through the government’s compulsory health scheme. We all have a ‘right’ to a health ‘system’, don’t we? Answer please? According to your arbitrary definitions, there is nothing that is not a public good, and government has a right to control not just money and banking, but anything and everything.
The arguments against a free market in money and banking cannot withstand critical scrutiny, are a denial of economic science, and are used to justify fraud, destruction, and anti-social behaviour on a massive scale.
Governmental control of money and banking should be abolished.
February 25th, 2009 at 4:33 am
Firstly Peter, you are new to the conversations here so you possibly don’t realise my emphasis on keeping the tone less than abusive. “Is that the best you can do?” is a suitable start to a flame war, but not a suitable contribution to a debate.
Since you start that way however, may I point out that your statement belies that you have not done particularly well here either. I would hope at least that you had read the post to whose discussion you are attempting to contribute. One essential point of that post was that “fractional reserve banking” is a fallacious description of the actual workings of our economy. Predictions that can be made from that model of money creation are strongly contradicted by the actual data.
Read the post and then see where the comments you try to dismiss out of hand actually come from. Address that and your contributions here will still be welcome.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:04 am
I apologise for offending, and thanks for your kind hosting.
Your article refutes the neo-classical, Keynesian and monetarist schools, but not the Austrian theory of money and credit, which is consistent with all the real-world observations you make.
I submit that your article depends on a false distinction between credit money and fiat money.
It is a false dichotomy to oppose a ‘credit money system’ to a ‘fiat money system’ for the following reasons. Money in specie can be commodity money, like gold, valued by weight; or fiat money, taking its value from the stamp on it, not the commodity – paper or plastic – on which the stamp is made.
You could lend someone a unit of commodity money – an ounce of gold – which he has to pay back to you in specie. And you could lend someone a unit of fiat money – a ten-dollar note – which he has to pay back in specie. Thus ‘credit money’ (your claim to the money in specie after lending and before repayment) and fiat money are not mutually exclusive. Fiat money is merely one kind of money in specie.
What is causing the entire problem under discussion is not credit money being created greatly in excess of fiat money per se, since if our currency was a commodity money, and if the credit money was being created greatly in excess of that commodity money, we would still have the same problem. Therefore the distinction between credit money and fiat money cannot be maintained as the cause of the problem.
The problem is the creation of money substitutes in excess of reserves of money in specie that cannot be redeemed on demand.
(The reason they cannot be redeemed on demand is because of governmental interventions in money and banking, including an express or implied privilege to suspend redemption in specie in breach of contract, in the event of a run on the bank, and other supports of banks which would otherwise be sued to perform their contracts, or suffer loss or bankruptcy.)
To define my terms:
Money in the broad sense includes a) money in specie and b) money substitutes.
a) Money in specie is money truly so-called. There are two kinds. Commodity money, such as gold. And fiat money, such as in Australia the familiar plastic coloured government ‘banknotes’ that we have in our wallets. Fiat money takes its value not from the commodity value of the plastic, but from the government stamp that declares its value to be ‘ten dollars’.
b) Money substitutes derive their value from a claim to underlying money in specie. They are exchanged as money, and so are ‘money’ in the broad sense, but not money truly so-called, ie money in specie.
If the money substitute can be redeemed on demand for money in specie, for example a certificate of deposit of gold 100% backed by gold in the vault, it is called a ‘money certificate’.
But if the money substitute cannot be redeemed on demand for money in specie, it is called a ‘fiduciary medium’. It is this latter category that is the locus of all the mischief, the abuse of which has caused the current economic crisis, and that is the source of virtually all of the debt in issue in your article.
To discuss credit, or the economic crisis, without distinguishing these basic factual concepts of money in the broad sense, is what caused the neoclassicals, Keynesians and monetarists to fall into the error you note in your article.
However the same error affects your analysis and conclusion. It is not permissible, I submit, to talk of ‘credit’ without distinguishing what has been lent, because it makes all the difference to the whole question in issue whether the particular credit is redeemable in specie. If it was, there would be no issue – the problem is that it’s not. Therefore the critical distinction is not between ‘credit money’ and ‘fiat money’, it is between money substitutes that are redeemable in specie, and those that are not.
However assuming, in your favour, that by ‘credit money’ you meant ‘fiduciary media’ (money substitute unbacked by money in specie) and by ‘fiat money’ you meant ‘money in specie’, then your argument is that the banks’ creation of fiduciary media is what is creating the debt bubble, not the government’s printing of money. This is correct.
But the fact that the banks are creating new ‘money’ – fiduciary media – does not justify the conclusion that our money system is not a fractional reserve banking. On the contrary, by definition, fiduciary media are money substitutes issued over and above the fraction of money in specie held in reserve: that’s what’s causing the whole problem!
In these circumstances, the term ‘endogenous’ is ambiguous too and that argument cannot be sustained. The newly created ‘money’ (ie fiduciary media) is endogenous in the sense that it is created in the private sector: so much is not in dispute. But it’s not endogenous in the sense that it wouldn’t be created without government control of money and banking: that’s what’s enabling, or rather privileging it to happen.
In order to understand what is the root cause of the debt in question, we have to ask what would be the case in the absence of governmental intervention. You omit to do this, and the omission leads you into error, because you assume, correct me if I am wrong, that the governmental interventions do not affect the creation of credit. But in the absence of government policy privileging and backing the banks to create money substitutes unbacked by money in specie, there would be runs on the banks which would cause those with insufficient reserves to go broke. Thus the phenomenon in question is caused by government, not ‘endogenous’ to banks creating the new money substitutes.
Also your method involves:
* Assume the whole panoply of governmental intervention as a background fact: monopoly of legal tender, fiat money, the express or implied privilege against redemption in specie, required reserves, the central bank manipulating interest rates, and so on.
* Observe the creation of fiduciary media grossly in excess of money in specie by banks.
* Assume that the whole panoply of governmental intervention with money and banking has got nothing to do with this phenomenon: it is ‘endogenous’ to banks.
* Fail to inquire into the critical variable, namely what, in the absence of said interventions, would enable the banks to create unredeemable money substitutes on such a scale without being bankrupted by runs on banks?
* Beginning your understanding of the monetary system with credit, whereas credit is a credit of money or money substitutes. So both logically and historically, the beginning of credit is in what is being lent: money in the broad sense. The understanding of the monetary system must begin with money itself (distinction between commodity and fiat money in specie), then proceed to money substitutes (distinction between money certificates and fiduciary media), and then and only then is one in a position to understand the entire problem of money and credit that we are faced with.
Therefore I submit that Austrian theory refutes your argument; your argument does not refute Austrian theory.
Now I have answered your question, but you have not answered mine, which I reiterate: what objection could there be to a free market in money and banking? I do not mean the *political* arguments – a desire to get something for nothing, paid for by someone else under compulsion – such as our friend gave – the supposed benefits of ‘public goods’ that are ‘under-produced’: like today’s news of government’s funding of cancer research for dogs perhaps? I mean the economic arguments: in the absence of government control of money and banking, why would the debt problem the subject of your article not be eliminated, or greatly reduced, by the simple, ethical and practical solution of letting people choose whether their deposits be redeemable on demand or not, with banks that fail to honour their contracts, suffering losses or bankruptcy without bailouts or privileges, which is as it should be?
(It appears from your article that you are not familiar with Ludwig von Mises 1912 work The Theory of Money and Credit. In it he describes in detail what is happening in the current crisis with a clarity that is amazing, considering it was written before the first world war. Murray Rothbard in ‘What Has Government Done to Our Money?’ refutes the assumption that the phenomenon we are observing can be called ‘endogenous’ to the banks, and shows that they are the intended results of government policy. )
Ethics of private production of money: http://mises.org/story/3340
What’s causing the deflation: http://mises.org/story/3353
February 27th, 2009 at 6:17 am
Dear Peter,
I don’t have time today to respond to this fully, but I will try to do so over the weekend.
Briefly though, you have misinterpreted my argument if you believe that I was asserting that credit money and fiat money are mutually exclusive. I asserted instead that both exist, but control goes from credit to fiat and not vice versa, which is the belief that underpins the “Money Multiplier” model of credit creation. Therefore we need in the first instance a model of money creation in the absence of fiat money, into which fiat money will be introduced at a later date.
Perhaps you need to read the argument somewhat more carefully.
February 27th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
We are agreed that the ‘Money Multiplier’ model is wrong. But that does not establish either the Marxian view or your own, especially if you carry forward the assumptions, confusion and error of the neoclassicals. We already know Marx was wrong in his theory of value, because he carried forward the error of the neoclassicals (LTV). Given that fact, how could his theory of money be correct? Doesn’t the theory of value apply to money?
Would you be so good as to answer the following questions?
Isn’t it true that in your argument the relevance of fiat money is in its being money in specie?
In other words if our money in specie, instead of being fiat money, were commodity money but otherwise the same total value and distribution, and the same proportion and relation to what you call ‘credit money’, then the problem would be the same, wouldn’t it? If banks were able to multiply credit money, and therefore debt, out of all proportion to money in specie without having to redeem it on demand, the problem would be the same, wouldn’t it?
If not, why not?
If so, then the significance of the fiat money is that it is money in specie, not that it is fiat money per se.
Isn’t it true that, if all of what you call ‘credit money’ were redeemable in specie, (and assuming that government were not inflating the supply of money in specie), then the original problem would not exist?
If not, why not? What would the moral or economic problem of debt be if it were all redeemable in uninflated money in specie on demand?
We don’t need to try to understand money and credit by starting with a non-existent ‘model’ of credit with unrealistic assumptions that do not distinguish between money truly so-called, and money substitutes redeemable and not redeemable in specie. That is a recipe for confusion and error.
We need to understand money and credit by understanding what the money is and where it came from in reality; and what money substitutes are and where they came from in reality. That will answer whatever question the model is intended to answer, and better. You can’t start with credit without first being clear what money is, and what money substitutes are, because that is what credit is a credit *of*. And you can’t just assume governmental interventions are ‘exogenous’ to the issue, because that is to beg the question: morally, economically and politically.
Last question please: in the absence of government intervention, what would stop those banks from going broke who issued money substitutes grossly in excess of what they could redeem in specie, from people demanding redemption?
February 28th, 2009 at 12:38 am
Dear Peter,
You obviously need to read more of the posts I have made here, and my academic papers, before conversation with you is going to be productive.
For instance, I expect in your statement:
“We already know Marx was wrong in his theory of value, because he carried forward the error of the neoclassicals (LTV). Given that fact, how could his theory of money be correct? Doesn’t the theory of value apply to money?”
That you see the “labour theory of value” as Marx’s theory of value–and that therefore anything derived from Marx will be wrong and therefore that my theory of money, which is derived from Marx, is therefore wrong?
If I’ve guessed right, then please read the four papers on Marx on my Research page where I show that the labour theory of value is wrong. I have an interpretation of Marx which rejects that theory–so it is highly unlikely that “my theory of money” has the foundations, or the content, that you are presuming for it.
I also honestly can’t understand your comment that Marx “carried forward the error of the neoclassicals (LTV)”, unless you believe that Smith and Ricardo are neoclassicals. If that’s a slip of the pen, fine; but if not, from somewhere you appear to have got the argument that Marx’s predecessors were NEOclassical? They belong to what is called the Classical school–which is quite antithetical to the Neoclassical school on the topic of value.
Please clarify what you mean by those topics; if your answers make sense to me, then I’m willing to continue the conversation. But if not, I think you had better spend some time reading a much broader literature than you have to date.
February 28th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Steve, I just read this from George Soros
“The scale of the problem is more than in the Great Depression because of the leverage involved. The ratio of debt to gross domestic product has increased from 160 percent in the 1920s to 350 percent last year, and is set to rise to 500 percent, he said. ”
A whopping 500 % ! What do you think Soros are saying, I dont get it. That the leverage will go up further, or that the GDP will contract so badly that the current 350 %, turns into 500 % of the much smaller GDP ?
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a60APVwmz01g&refer=home
February 28th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
A bit of both prudentbear,
The government bailouts are adding to debt (Soros is using the aggregate figure including government debt); the failure of counterparties in the insane derivatives trade will add to debt–each 1% netted out will add $6 billion to the recorded debt level, and god knows what the total will ultimately be; and both real output and prices will tank as they did in 1930-32.
The US’s private debt to GDP ratio was 175% in late 1929; it hit 235% simply via deflation and falling output as nominal debt levels fell. The same will happen in spades again this time, along with the additional madness of derivatives.
February 28th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
‘He fell like a tower, and his armour rang upon him.”
Homer
Steve Keen having gone down in a welter of evasion, appeal to absent authority and personal argument, will anyone accept my challenge to answer the questions I have asked, consistent with defending Steve Keen’s hypothesis?
March 2nd, 2009 at 9:52 pm
“Shrieks of silence”, their only reply.
What this means is that the problem is not ‘endogenous’ to the banks. It is caused by government policies of inflating the money supply, including by extending to banks the explicit or implicit privilege of suspending redemption in specie, as well as the whole panoply of governmental fraud aka monetary policy, which should be abolished.
March 13th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
foreign exchange graph…
It looks like we have similar ideas on this subject….
May 5th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
[...] of the future. The best argument for deflation we have seen so far is Professor Steve Keen’s “The Roving Cavaliers of Credit” article. We highly recommend that you take a read at that article if you have the time. If not, we [...]
June 1st, 2009 at 3:26 pm
[...] willingness to extend credit. This phenomenon can be captured by the model I outlined in the Roving Cavaliers of Credit by changing three key parameters: It's something we ourselves have been working on. But it [...]
July 6th, 2009 at 7:09 am
[...] was a good and extensive article by Steve Keen on debdeflation website that among other things pointed out that: To make a serious dent in debt [...]
July 7th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
[...] on more debt, their spending power is multiplied. Thus, as Steve Keen eloquently demonstrates in The Cavaliers of Credit, money supply must follow suit. Steve keen shows that money supply follows credit creation and not [...]
July 27th, 2009 at 9:07 am
[...] “Savings cause Loans” perspective of the conventional model of money. As I explained in The Roving Cavaliers of Credit, this model is rather like the pre-Copernican view that the Sun orbits the Earth: it’s easy [...]
August 17th, 2009 at 10:50 am
[...] [...]
August 21st, 2009 at 11:40 am
Late comments on an excellent post -
The multiplier of course is garbage. You’ve demonstrated this at the macro level empirically. It’s also obvious at the micro operational level of a bank treasury function, and corresponding central bank operation, including forecasting and OMO functions.
Your synthesis of the fiat and credit money domains is the most elegant construct I’ve seen in explaining all this. It’s missing in too many other PK type explanations.
Interesting also that you focus on gross debt rather than the net government / non government financial positions that some of your blogging colleagues (PK?) dwell on. I also find the Chartalist theme to be strangely inconsistent with the net government deficit emphasis. Seems to me the Chartalist rationale is sufficient but not necessary for commercial acceptance of HTM. Also, operational liberation is emphasized elsewhere to the point of deemphasizing a still required policy process (i.e. policy interest rate and expenditure and tax and deficit parameters, based on educated and appropriate assessment of economic capacity and inflation or deflation risk)
I disagree a bit on Bernanke. Although he talks up the monetary effect (e.g. helicopter) in speeches etc., I think the recent monetary base expansion is a by product of the Fed stepping in to assume part of the commercial bank credit function. The fact that he’s paying interest on reserves suggests implicitly to me that he’s paying little attention to the money multiplier argument. In fact, he’s explicitly dissuading the banks from acting on such an erroneous interpretation by paying interest on reserves.
Your lending reserve construct is a little difficult to incorporate. Of course, it doesn’t really correspond to traditional financial accounting, whereas most of the other components in the model do. This makes it slightly unwieldy to synthesize, but not impossible at all. It reminds me most closely of excess capital, although that is definitely financially accountable. And it’s relevant. A fundamental error with the money multiplier story is that it pretends to ascribe bank credit rationing according to liquidity rather than capital. That, plus the story on liquidity (i.e. reserves) is completely wrong, of course.
August 21st, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Thanks for those comments JKH,
I am also a bit puzzled by the Chartalist position, which is why I won’t engage in a debate with Bill Mitchell and co. about this until after I’ve had the time to pull their position apart in detail. The emphasis for example on the fact that only the government can create net financial assets; yes, but in the actual data debt dramatically exceeds any measure of money–so that the system actually has net financial liabilities, and yet it still functions. So I’ve focused on how building a model of how a pure credit system can be functional and still create net financial liabilities rather than net assets.
The lending reserve issue has been raised with me a few times. I agree that it doesn’t correspond to traditional accounting, but it’s necessary to keep it quarantined to avoid a “seignorage” issue as Graziani and the Circuitists emphasise. I’ll try to make it closer to actual institutional arrangements when I expand the model, but a major reason for having it in the model was to give an alternative to the “paying debt back destroys money” argument that I have heard a million times from some PKers and many money cranks, but which always seemed like nonsense to me.
Curiously some correspondence from one such crank–John Horrocks–led to the following useful reply from one other soul also on his distribution list:
So my unlent reserves corresponds to a capital account–at least in this rendition.
As for Bernanke, yes you could be right there. Of course this in turn fits with the Circuitist/Basil Moore Post Keynesian endogenous money idea–and the data as shown by Kydland and Prescott–that issuance of base money is in response to financial crises and the like generated by the private credit system. Whether Bernanke is conscious of it or not, that’s the gist of the gigantic increase in Base Money in the last 4 months of 2008.
August 27th, 2009 at 3:07 am
[...] The Fed controls money supply simply by manipulating interest rates charged to these banks. Steve Keen’s DebtWatch No 31 February 2009: “The Roving Cavaliers of Credit” | Ste… ^ this guy explains it better than I [...]
September 6th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Congratulations to Steve Keen for his high quality article at the start of this blog.
However Steve’s dismissal of Bernanke’s point on the merits of expanding the monetary base by printing money is a bit cavalier (reference No 8). I suggest that if the new money is channeled directly to consumers, the latter will have a significant tendency to spend it (particularly those who are NOT in debt).
Others have suggested feeding the new money directly to consumers, e.g. i) http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2009/01/26/090126ta_talk_surowiecki ii) http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/21/treasury-banking-keynes-demand iii) there is an IMF publication advocating this policy, but I’ve lost the URL.
Of course consumers will use much of the new money to pay off debts in a recession, and banks may use much of it to patch up their balance sheets, but if the money printing goes on long enough, its bound at some stage to boost demand, isn’t it?
CHARTELISM. I dont blame Steve for being “a bit puzzled by the Chartalist position” (No. 235, above). I attempt to demolish Chartelism at http://chartal.blogspot.com/ Warren Mosler strongly disagrees with me !
September 7th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Hi Ralph37,
In fact that outcome–that stimulus money is better given to debtors than banks–is an outcome of my Circuit model with a credit crunch. See slide 22 of:
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/lectures/public/KeenGFCScaleCausesConsequences.ppt
The dilemma is though that it’s not just a credit crunch–it’s a debt-deleveraging phenomenon as well. In that milieu, much of that stimulus to demand from government spending will be countered by the demand-suppressing impact of debt reduction.
September 8th, 2009 at 6:14 am
In response to Steve in 238 above……on the other hand the other name for monetary base is “high powered money”. This is for the good reason that $ for $, extra high powered money has more stimulatory effect than extra commercial bank “debt” money. High powered money is “pure asset” from the private sector’s point of view, whereas with “debt” money, a $ of asset in the hands of one private sector entity is so to speak cancelled out by a $ of debt owed by some other private sector entity. But how one quantifies the “power” of high powered money relative to debt money, I’ve no idea.
On a slightly different point, in view of the pro cyclical nature and destabilising effects of “debt” money, what does Steve think about abolishing this form of money (or severely restricting it). I.e. what are your views on a “monetary base only” monetary system. Abraham Lincoln favoured this (for what that is worth). The “Monetary Reform Party” in the UK also wants this system. This certainly wouldn’t banish every instance of “irrational exuberance” to use Alan Greenspan’s phrase, but it might help.
September 9th, 2009 at 7:58 am
[...] Steve Keen’s DebtWatch No 31 February 2009: “The Roving Cavaliers of Credit” | Ste… Thus loans come first—simultaneously creating deposits—and at a later stage the reserves are found. The main mechanism behind this are the “lines of credit” that major corporations have arranged with banks that enable them to expand their loans from whatever they are now up to a specified limit. If a firm accesses its line of credit to, for example, buy a new piece of machinery, then its debt to the bank rises by the price of the machine, and the deposit account of the machine’s manufacturer rises by the same amount. If the bank that issued the line of credit was already at its own limit in terms of its reserve requirements, then it will borrow that amount, either from the Federal Reserve or from other sources. If the entire banking system is at its reserve requirement limit, then the Federal Reserve has three choices:refuse to issue new reserves and cause a credit crunch; [...]
October 4th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
[...] process of creating a loan and a deposit at the same time, as I explained in the “Roving Cavaliers of Credit” post. The failure of neoclassical economics to realise this is one of the major reasons why [...]
November 15th, 2009 at 2:53 am
[...] Steve Keen brilliantly and very simply shows in this and other essays, in the West in general, money and credit creation have been on a steady increase for the past [...]
December 11th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Dear Steve,
I just discovered you thanks to your appearance at Max Keiser. I love this article. I am economist by a hobby. I would like to address part of your post. I have some reservation to it. Especially the part when you discuss inflation versus deflation is a very interesting/crucial question.
You give few reasons why inflation won’t happen. I think it would be possible to refute all your points against inflation. I know I am out of my league commenting on this article, but maybe an outsider perspective can enrich the discussion.
Your points :
1. Banks won’t create more credit money as a result of the injections of Base Money. Instead, inactive reserves will rise;
I agree that the banks will not create new credit money, BUT they still may put the money they were given in the circulation (without a multiplier). Banks are playing big time in derivatives markets trying to make huge amount of money not only through interest rates on credit. They have repealed Glass-Steigel act so that banks can do all types of investments and they will be loosing money in a standard fashion (not because of credit defaults). Banks not lending does not mean the money they have got are not already in the circulation. Banks do not have to lend to increase the amount of money in circulation. In USA the money is not only given to banks, money flows to the economy using other channels/methods too. Maybe banks are hoarding cash because they are zombie banks and try to remove the status of the zombie bank by playing more on markets to make quick money to cover their losses in credit defaults, etc. They are not lending because this is a lost cause as more and more people have high risk of defaulting so they try desperately to recover their losses in another way.
2. Creating more credit money requires a matching increase in debt—even if the money multiplier model were correct, what would the odds be of the private sector taking on an additional US$7 trillion in debt in addition to the current US$42 trillion it already owes?;
Here, I fully agree. The credit money will not be increased. However, the money through banks not by the means of credit will end up in third party hands which will invest it causing inflation of prices.
3. Deflation will continue because the motive force behind it will still be there—distress selling by retailers and wholesalers who are desperately trying to avoid going bankrupt; and
Yes, there will be a lot of distressing selling but there will be people able to buy it using the money they have got from the banks which lost the bets on the derivatives market.
The situation is crazy. It is really hard to protect yourself. Your work makes a great argument for deflation, however even yourself give a credit to Mr. Bernarke for his ability to print money. He may surprise us more.
I am terrified at what I see. I see a great danger of extreme wealth transfer. Rich people will become richer, poor people will become poorer. The debt culture we have in the world will cause people to massively default on their loans, loose their homes/business/… . It will push the prices of homes into deflation spiral. Central banks will keep printing money trying to avoid deflation but that money will keep flowing out of banks into hands of people who made huge wins from derivatives. Those winners of the derivatives debts at some point will decide to buy hugely depreciated assets causing an inflation. In this scenario everybody who is in debt will suffer immensely. If the deflation does not get them the later inflation will.
best,
Radek
December 15th, 2009 at 1:12 am
[...] an economist out of Australia who has had some very insightful posts in the past (February’s The Roving Cavaliers of Credit is a great ‘out of the box’ piece that I’ve reread multiple times), I recommend [...]
December 17th, 2009 at 10:03 am
[...] good primer to start with is his explanation of how our economic system really works called “The Cavaliers of Credit”. Most of our economics classes taught us a simple model – that the Fed makes money, [...]
December 18th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
[...] proper dynamic approach, using the “tabular” method that I outlined here in “The Roving Cavaliers of Credit“, the conundrums are easily solved–watch the presentation to see how (click here for my [...]
December 21st, 2009 at 10:05 pm
[...] economist Steve Keen has made a strong case that lending comes first and reserves later in Roving Cavaliers of Credit. I discussed that at length in Fiat World Mathematical [...]
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:41 am
[...] economist Steve Keen has made a strong case that lending comes first and reserves later in Roving Cavaliers of Credit. I discussed that at length in Fiat World Mathematical [...]
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:00 pm
[...] economist Steve Keen has made a strong case that lending comes first and reserves later in Roving Cavaliers of Credit. I discussed that at length in Fiat World Mathematical [...]
December 24th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
[...] economist Steve Keen has made a strong case that lending comes first and reserves later in Roving Cavaliers of Credit. I discussed that at length in Fiat World Mathematical [...]
January 17th, 2010 at 3:55 am
[...] s?owami, cytuj?c Marksa, Steve Keen rozpoczyna swój artyku? „The roving cavaliers of credit”, w którym rozprawia si? z teori? mno?nika pieni??nego (lub kredytowego) i roli banku [...]
February 4th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Steve, I had to stop reading when I got to your “toy economy”. The notion of transferring from the ‘firms’ account to the ‘banks’ account is ridiculous. You’ve missed the dual nature of the money system where we have central bank liabilities and commercial bank liabilities – and never the twain will meet. No such transfer would take place.
February 4th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
Steve, I think you are incorrect to say we live in a credit economy (state credit and private credit (I noticed you don’t make this distinction). It is predominately credit based (in fact most) and can be justified by the fact the all credit money is listed as an asset and liability depending on the balance sheet you are looking at. The only spanner in the works in the coinage of the realm to which all the state credit (reserve balances and notes) and private credit (bank accounts) ultimately derive.
If you can find coinage on a balance sheet as a liability for the issuer then you can have your credit based economy.
February 5th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
One more point, banks in australia do not have reserve requirements – and lend according to their capital leverage as per Basel. They will obtain the necessary funds to settle credit extension through interbank or repo borrowing. The money multiplier argument doesn’t even apply.
February 5th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
Dear Incorrect,
I think you have misread the purpose of that model: it deliberately abstracts from central banks to model a pure credit economy. It was not a case of “missing” the mixed nature but abstracting from it to solve an issue in the literature on pure credit economies, where the academic consensus within the Circuit School has been that firms could not borrow money and make a profit.
I of course agree re the irrelevance of the money multiplier argument in the Australian context.
February 5th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
Steve,
thanks I see what you mean. That’s the problem with so much to read and litte time to read it.
February 6th, 2010 at 11:49 am
[...] Frankfurt School of Finance and Managment professor Thorstein Polleit gives a sobering overview of just what we’re in for, as the Federal Reserve increases base money from $870.9 billion to $1735.3 billion in just five months, with much more to come. There is a bit of disagreement in Austrian-ish circles as to when inflation might hit — Mike Shedlock, for example, has argued that we’ll experience deflation first. (Some of the disagreement hinges on the definitions of “inflation” and “deflation” — whether prices, base money, credit, or something else is the key measurement.) I suspect that the deflationists are right in the short term: the annihilation of so much ledgerbook money should create a deflationary pressure. But the Fed is doing everything in its power to print its way out of deflation — which would actually be beneficial as a correction to the inflated real estate, stock, and other prices we’ve seen over the last 20-odd years — and into inflation. Shedlock argues that as long as the banks aren’t lending, we won’t see inflation, and Polleit notes that they have indeed massively increased their excess reserves (from $1.9 billion to $798.2 billion so far). Trouble is, eventually the banks will start loaning out that money again, which is when inflation explodes. (Though even here, some economists dissent from the idea that base money leads the creation of credit money.) [...]
February 23rd, 2010 at 5:03 pm
[...] need a required reading list to make this a productive discussion. Nick, Steve's circuit models of endogenous money creation make it clear that the banking system can generate boom/bust cycles on its own, without any help [...]
March 2nd, 2010 at 4:16 pm
[...] [...]
March 5th, 2010 at 4:34 am
[...] contradictory and intellectually incoherent behaviors. -Joseph Stiglitz Once you've debunked the money multiplier fallacy, it's clear that an interest rate hike is a crude, reactive tool for dealing with debt and [...]
March 7th, 2010 at 6:53 am
[...] years of unpaid labor is what gives the bank’s ability to create money a real social value. (Steve Keen has made this argument on many occasions.) You turn a valueless piece of paper into something with value – but, only as long as you [...]
March 7th, 2010 at 11:22 am
[...] [...]
March 10th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
[...] entirely for the house price bubble–there I point the finger at a financial system which is always willing to finance a Ponzi Scheme when one can be found. But it’s clear that the First Home Owners Grant seeded the Ponzi [...]
March 10th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
[...] entirely for the house price bubble–there I point the finger at a financial system which is always willing to finance a Ponzi Schemewhen one can be found. But it’s clear that the First Home Owners Grant seeded the Ponzi Scheme [...]
March 15th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
[...] but my analysis of how credit is created (see my “Roving Cavaliers of Credit” post: http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/) makes me sceptical that any new system will “hold” so long as financiers can make money [...]
March 15th, 2010 at 8:29 pm
[...] but my analysis of how credit is created (see my “Roving Cavaliers of Credit” post: http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/) makes me sceptical that any new system will “hold” so long as financiers can make money [...]
March 18th, 2010 at 10:50 am
[...] [...]
March 19th, 2010 at 3:29 am
[...] [...]
March 19th, 2010 at 5:11 am
[...] system, but my analysis of how credit is created (see my “Roving Cavaliers of Credit” post: http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/) makes me sceptical that any new system will “hold” so long as financiers can make money by [...]
March 22nd, 2010 at 4:23 pm
[...] as Steve Keen notes – citing Table 10 in Yueh-Yun C. OBrien, 2007. “Reserve Requirement Systems in OECD [...]
March 22nd, 2010 at 9:02 pm
[...] as Steve Keen notes – citing Table 10 in Yueh-Yun C. OBrien, 2007. “Reserve Requirement Systems in OECD [...]
March 23rd, 2010 at 1:38 am
[...] as Steve Keen notes – citing Table 10 in Yueh-Yun C. OBrien, 2007. “Reserve Requirement Systems in OECD [...]
March 23rd, 2010 at 1:49 am
[...] as Steve Keen notes – citing Table 10 in Yueh-Yun C. OBrien, 2007. “Reserve Requirement Systems in OECD [...]
March 23rd, 2010 at 5:55 pm
[...] proper dynamic approach, using the “tabular” method that I outlined here in “The Roving Cavaliers of Credit“, the conundrums are easily solved–watch the presentation to see how (click here for my [...]
March 23rd, 2010 at 11:35 pm
[...] “Savings cause Loans” perspective of the conventional model of money. As I explained in The Roving Cavaliers of Credit, this model is rather like the pre-Copernican view that the Sun orbits the Earth: it’s easy [...]
March 23rd, 2010 at 11:36 pm
[...] willingness to extend credit. This phenomenon can be captured by the model I outlined in the Roving Cavaliers of Credit by changing three key parameters: It's something we ourselves have been working on. But it [...]
March 23rd, 2010 at 11:37 pm
[...] process of creating a loan and a deposit at the same time, as I explained in the “Roving Cavaliers of Credit” post. The failure of neoclassical economics to realise this is one of the major reasons why [...]
March 24th, 2010 at 6:06 am
[...] as Steve Keen notes – citing Table 10 in Yueh-Yun C. OBrien, 2007. “Reserve Requirement Systems in OECD [...]
March 24th, 2010 at 6:41 am
[...] economist Steve Keen has made a strong case that lending comes first and reserves later in Roving Cavaliers of Credit. I discussed that at length in Fiat World Mathematical [...]
March 24th, 2010 at 9:44 am
Steve is expressing the usual bumbling misunderstandings here.
He completely misunderstands Marx, and yet again asserts:
Marx was wrong on:
“Notably the “labour theory of value”, which argues erroneously that all profit comes from labour, the notion that the rate of profit has a tendency to fall, and the alleged inevitability of the demise of capitalism; see my papers on these issues on the Research page of my blog under Marx.”
Marx did not present a “labour theory of value”. This existed before Marx.
Marx developed a “socially necessary theory of labour”. If I have two societies, each with 10hrs of labour, and the same endowments, then a capitalist may get 5 dollars of profit from one society and 6 dollars from the other.
The difference is the social relations – which produce the profit – NOT the labour. Labour only creates means of subsistance plus some extra according to productivity. The social relations then determine capitalist profits.
This fact needs to be nailed into Steve’s brain like Luther’s notes to his Church.
Marx clearly showed that rate of profits must fall, and subsequent economists have generally agreed with this when they assume perfect competition (ie economic profits are competed away). However Marx indicated that there were countervailing tendencies, which I should note are unsustainable and lead to world wars.
The demise of capitalism is inevitable once countervailing tendencies are exhausted or themselves – ruinous.
March 24th, 2010 at 9:57 am
Re #27 Chris.
You know, I’ve recently had a similarly derogatory exchange from a well-known Marxist that I have decided not to publish. But perhaps I will put up a post soon on Marx, and why I believe that most of his so-called supporters both misunderstood him. They are probably the main barrier to properly incorporating the real wisdom of Marx’s thought into a revitalised economics.
March 24th, 2010 at 10:55 am
Yes; anyone who titles a chapter in their book with such derogatory poses as:
“Nothing to lose but their minds”
will reap derogatory exchanges from then on.
You should publish exchanges from various self-styled Marxists, but in a moderated forum – not this interminable, mindless blog.
Once you focus on Marx’s categories (eg Capital) as a social category, you can then deal with exchange value and use value, in a social context – this then leads to what you term revitalised economics (but, I guess, you mean market socialism).
March 28th, 2010 at 6:32 am
[...] policy: for me, the ultimate cause of our housing and financial crises will always be the innate willingness of the financial sector to extend debt. But it is certainly obvious that Government meddling in the housing market has seeded a bubble [...]
March 28th, 2010 at 11:27 am
[...] I argued in the Roving Cavaliers of Credit, financial deregulation was based on a misguided belief that the financial system operated like an [...]
March 28th, 2010 at 11:36 am
[...] http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/ [...]
March 29th, 2010 at 5:51 am
[...] entirely for the house price bubble–there I point the finger at a financial system which is always willing to finance a Ponzi Scheme when one can be found. But it’s clear that the First Home Owners Grant seeded the Ponzi [...]
April 12th, 2010 at 8:23 pm
[...] That article sort of reminds me of Gail Kelly's bananas. Steve Keen deals more thoroughly with the ideas behind FRB and tackles the issue rather well in his Roving Cavaliers of Credit post. [...]
April 26th, 2010 at 4:12 am
[...] [...]
May 11th, 2010 at 11:45 am
[...] one of the strongest arguments for deflation as put forth by Steve Keens in early 2009. In his post he makes the point that thinking of our monetary system as being one of government fiat currency [...]
June 14th, 2010 at 6:10 am
[...] to the BIS. http://www.bis.org/publ/bcbs165/universityofsou.pdf Steve keen is great too. Steve Keen’s DebtWatch No 31 February 2009: “The Roving Cavaliers of Credit” | Ste… __________________ "…Money exists not by nature but by law." Aristotle (Ethics, [...]
June 20th, 2010 at 1:38 pm
[...] of Marx is Not” pp. 269-99; see also support for the book at http://www.debunking-economics.com http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/ http://www.stevekeen.netii Keen critiques what is typically taught at undergraduate levels not some [...]
June 26th, 2010 at 4:34 am
[...] Steve Keen’s DebtWatch No 31 February 2009: “The Roving Cavaliers of Credit” | Steve Keen'… A bit over my head, but makes sense and seems to imply that deflation won't be so easily cured I think. H/T Bruce for the link. [...]
June 27th, 2010 at 5:27 am
[...] that first banks make loans, and then the Fed increases money supply to meet demand. According to Keen and Mish, money supply is created first by banks making loans, then by the Fed supplying the money, [...]
July 10th, 2010 at 10:51 am
[...] or deflation? The case for deflation: Mish Shedlock. Update: Steve Keen. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)No TitleEngineering California’s Economic [...]
July 20th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
[...] crisis, an explanation of how money is created in a pure credit economy (based on my “Roving Cavaliers of Credit” post on this blog), and a model of debt-deflation as covered in my recent talk in New [...]
July 22nd, 2010 at 8:08 pm
[...] pretty certain that Mr Benanke has got the economics of money back to front. Once again, he showed that he [...]
July 24th, 2010 at 8:19 am
[...] don’t need to know the code. You just need to understand money and debt and the master resource – energy. Then it becomes clear that Bernanke and the Bank are singing [...]
July 24th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
[...] [...]
July 26th, 2010 at 9:49 pm
[...] blog which is the best explanation I have seen for why hyper inflation is unlikely, here's a link: The Roving Cavlier's of Credit [...]