I’ve just been interviewed for an SBS News piece on China (for non-Australian readers, SBS is Australia’s multicultural television station, and its news has a strong international focus).
Ordinarily I don’t comment on China, because I don’t know enough about their economy right now–except to deride the belief that was popular in Australia last year that our exports to China would insulate us from the global downturn. “Decoupling” they called it–China was supposed to have its own internal growth dynamic that would mean it would continue growing and buying our raw materials even as the OECD tanked. This theory–ironically spouted by the same people who once touted that the world is now globalised and everything affects (and benefits) everything else–is now rather less popular as China’s growth has slowed.
I expect the spruikers of that argument will query why I’m talking about China, when I normally disavow detailed knowledge of the country. So this post is to explain why I did the interview.
This SBS story isn’t about decoupling or China’s economic prospects, but about the possible political ramifications within China of the return to the countryside of all those workers who have recently lost their jobs. I have a perspective on that gained on a trip to China almost 30 years ago, when I organised the first ever conference between Chinese journalists and those of any other nation. Co-organised by the Australia-China Council and the All China Journalists Association, the conference spent four days reviewing the coverage of each country in the other’s press before we embarked on a 3 week tour of China.
This was after the fall of the “Gang of Four”, and while their trial was preceding in Beijing. It was also just after Democracy Wall had been converted into an advertising billboard–Deng’s capitalist transformation of China had begun. But there was no doubt that the Communist Party was still firmly in control–just the dominant faction at the top had changed.
Just before we departed for China, its statistical office released some very curious data: in the previous year, Chinese light industry output had risen by 17 percent, but heavy industry output had fallen by 7 percent.
This combination just didn’t make sense to the several economic journalists on the Australian delegation: how could heavy industry fall when light industry rose? Doesn’t one depend upon the other?
Our attempts to get to the bottom of this conundrum received the same answer everywhere we went–as indeed did every other question we asked. Without fail, the first answer to every question was:
“We followed the directives of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China.”
We became adept at asking “Yes, but what did you actually do?”, which would then somtimes elucidate what lay behind whatever fabulous success of China’s economic reformation we were then witnessing.
In the case of this curious pair of numbers, the answer came when we met with the Mayor of Shanghai, and an offsider who was position was quite literally translated to us as “the Economic Boss of Shanghai”. After the obligatory above answer to our question, and our request for elaboration, he answered:
“Well, the Central Committee sent a directive to promote light industry”
One more “Yes, so what did you do?” evoked the answer:
“We stripped heavy industry factories and turned them into light industry.”
At last we could make sense of the data.
The answer threw into high relief some other mysteries we’d seen on the trip–such as a model village in Sichuan province where, nonetheless, almost all children below a certain age (about five) had what appeared to us to be signs of Kwashiorkor–protein deficiency. Yet the place was being shown to us as a model commune that was successfully making the transition to commercial agriculture.
I ultimately came to believe that China’s immense size, combined with its fearfully centralised political system, was a major factor in its internal politics.
The Communist Party itself had at that time about 35 million members–roughly one in thirty of the Chinese population. It was as if the entire country was being run by the Boy Scouts. Policies would originate in possibly detailed and nuanced debate at the Central Committee level (leavened with lots of purges, banishments to the countryside, and other fun activities). The winning faction’s position would then be channelled down the funnel of the Party’s enormous membership, until it hit the local level where it would be implemented.
Local officials might well be able to foresee what might come of any given policy, but the only defence against criticism for any problems that might later arise was your unswerving implementation of it:
“I followed the directives of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China.”
All nuances were thus stripped from the policy itself to leave a bald slogan–like “Promote Grain!” or “Promote Legumes!”–which was carried out to the letter and beyond by local party officials. When the slogan was “Promote Grain!”, legume crops would be pulled out, and grain planted in their place.
Some time later, there would be a protein shortage, and peasants who had been quiescent under the Party’s iron rule (which itself was little different to the iron rule of the preceding Emperors) would rise in revolt as they looked on the faces of their deformed children.
Local Communist Party officials might well find themselves lynched–they would certainly feel like endangered species for a while–and the bad news about the policy’s unexpected side-effects would travel back up the Boy Scout line to the Central Committee. Political power would shift in favour of the legumes faction, which after a few selective banishments to the provinces and the like, would see the slogan go out “Promote Legumes!”.
Some time later, there would be a famine, and…
You get the picture. The flip-flops in policy for which China was then famous made some sense.
The last two decades of stupendous growth have given China a degree of political stability that make the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 a distant memory. But in some ways, the same dynamic is still there; it’s just that the new slogan to which unswerving fealty has been given is that of growth and globalisation.
That was, and possibly will still be, a successful policy in the long run. But its current serious decline is sending probably millions of once-were-peasants back from their coastal manufacturing jobs to the countryside, where they are likely to be unemployed and seriously disaffected.
If they emulate their parents, they may well rise up against the local Party officials; the demure acquiescence to Party authority will go out the window when the Party’s policy fails them.
When it does, there will be a political shift in China at the top as well–not necessarily an overthrow of the Western, development orientation, but certainly a strengthening of those who believe, for example, that the provinces should be developed rather than throwing all the resources at the coastal manufacturing cities.
This potential for political turmoil in the provinces, and ultimately at the Central Committee level, was the topic for SBS’s story. It should air tonight on SBS News (Wednesday January 28th at 6.30pm Sydney time).



Hi Icon,
I posted before reading your last post. I can’t agree more. The US may not survive this depression intact. Who can say?
I do know from history though, that major world powers wax and wane over very long periods of time.
When I read “Pillars of the Earth”, Set in the 11th Century. I was struck by the people’s long term view of their existence. I feel like people in our era have such a short term view of all areas of their life.
I think you are totally wrong on the dollar and gold. The moment the US starts to target long term treasuries gold will gain momentum. That’s pure psychology, and almost a sure thing. Gold now looks identical to gold in 1975, gold stocks in 1930, and even the NASDAQ in January 1999. I have made extensive comparisons on this. The similarity with the NASDAQ in 1999 before it went up after the 98 correction, is crystal clear, almost a 100 % match.
The reason gold is in a pre bubble or bubble, or anti bubble to the treasury market depending on how you see it, is that during the credit mess, the only thing that have not sold off is gold. During the 1998 crash, everything sold of but the NASDAQ. This time it’s gold. If things get worse it will benefit gold, while treasuries and stocks will decline in value.
had the US economy deteriorated to the point that unemployment reached 25 %, the dollar would not be worth anything. The dollar goes whatever way the US economy goes.
prudentsaver,
The USD is not like any other currency, it is the international reserve currency. Moreover, it is the currency which many asian, latin american, arab and petro state economies peg their currency to. Infact, it can be thought that the USD denominated economy is made up of not only the US economy, but all who also peg themselves to the USD, which includes China, Saudi Arabia, for example. So prudentsave, you are mistaken in your analysis.
If the Fed starts walking up the yield curve to push it down, which is certain that they will do so, put a floor under the price of treasury paper removing the down side risk in holding treasury paper, whilst their is a real and present risk in gold. The Fed will not back stop gold, not one iota. So you are mistaken on this point as well.
I don’t understand why some are so convinced that the dollar isn’t going away any time soon. It is likely to stay high for a while, but it seems to me that there is a serious risk of people bailing out of the US too.
Hi Steve & Others,
Two things I’ve been wondering about…
1) The Chinese government recently reported 6.8% growth from Q4 2007 to Q4 2008, and no one seems to have flinched. But consider this -growth from Q3 2007 to Q3 2008 was 9.9%, which works out to an average of about 2.4% per quarter. Isn’t there a good chance, therefore, that the growth from Q1 2008 to Q3 2008 was more than 6.8%, and that growth in Q4 2008 was actually negative?
2) A quick look at the websites of the major banks suggests that they are willing to lend about 4.5 – 4.75 times gross income. Clearly this is part of the house price problem. Does anyone have any data about the variation in lending ratios over the recent and not so recent past?
The dollar used to be the reserve currency back when the US was a creditor nation. The reserve currency always belongs to the biggest creditor nations. The Asian countries can make the dollar worthless if they coordinate their actions any time they want to. The US cannot do that with let’s say the YEN.
Your analysis about treasury bonds are also totally wrong. They can put a floor under treasuries, that’s correct, but like the Central Bank of Zimbabwe they can’t control the exchange of the dollar, and treasuries is not worth holding if the dollar loose value. The dollar is likely to go down, and gold is likely to go up if they starts to target the long end of the yield curve, that’¨s more or less given.
It’s really so simple. The US debt was junk bonds and they was bankrupt already in 14-11-1994 when japan intervened, throwing the treasury market a lifeline, in the process pushing down US interest rates, giving the dotcom boom. The same thing happened early 2000. China threw the US a lifeline as, interest rates fell down again due to their buying of treasuries, and you had the housing bubble. Things have not changed, the US are still bankrupt, and the dollar are hovering around the levels last seen when japan intervened.
I hope they let the US go bankrupt for real this time, of course interest rates in the US will skyrocket (unless the US starts buying their own debt and they move towards destroying the dollar) unless foreigners again step up their buying of treasuries. When foreigners sell their treasuries, due to the falling dollar from the US moving to the long end of the yield curve, the result could be hyperinflation.
That does appear to be the case Blavatsky: more detailed reports on China are indicating that the change in GDP was actually negative in the last quarter.
I don’t have data on the actual ratios banks accepted, but a synthetic statistic could be compiled by dividing outstanding mortgage debt per mortgaged household by average household income. I am sure it would show a growth from a low of below 3 times back in the 50s to the multiples you are suggesting now.
I don’t have time to do that right now, but I expect that some concerted digging through the RBA statistical bulletin would enable the calculation to be done.
On the chinese growth story:
This indicator have worked for me:
http://custom.marketwatch.com/custom/interactivebrokers-com/html-intchart.asp?symb=SZPRY&time=all&uf=0&compidx=aaaaa~0&ma=0&maval=60&x=43&y=2
It’s a chinese real estate devenloper located in Shenzhen. The stock performance is a good indicator of the chinese economy, and the flow of liquidity into the chinese real estate sector. The flow fell of a cliff in november 2007.
The indicator is similar to mid 1998- early 1999 now.
This article by Morgan Stanley on hyperinflation is rather interesting:
http://v2.ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2009/01/30/51876/hyperinflation-is-a-possibility-say-morgan-stanley/
I have thought a lot about it myself.
The argument against seems to be that the government can just print money to replace what is “lost”, meaning there will be no inflation. But that’s simply ignoring the quality of the debt. Japan was able to keep their quality up, as they managed to keep up revenues as the rest of the world went along, but this time the recession is synchronized in the whole world.
What I have been thinking about, is that in countries such as Iceland, the country could not print out the losses, as that would had defaulted the entire country ,they tried and ended with close to hyperinflation. It’s the same thing going on in Spain. The tax revenue goes down and down. Unemployment benefits, and different bailout packages goes up and up, and the yield on the government bonds goes up and up. So the government, they can’t simply replace “lost money”, with new money and have a zero sum game. It does not work.
Frank et al.,
The same thought process supported by the gold bugs was put forward by Peter Schiff, Marc Faber et al., which infact has been proved to be completely wrong on, with their clients loosing big time.
The USD is the international reserve currency and is used as the basis of exchange in international trade, let’s not kid ourselves. You can go to any corner of the planet, and someone will be willing to accept USD. You can not say that for the RMB, Yen or the Euro.
The USD may actually strengthen as this will ensure the USD denominated foreign trade surpluses continue to flow into US treasuries, given their low yields, as it has done so.
If one also ignores the geopolitics, one may draw the false conclusions.
Prudentsaver, you can hope all you like, but that can not materially make a difference.
In the movie “The Hunt for Red October”, Sean Connery stars as the Russian captain Marko Ramius on an experimental nuclear submarine. In the end of the movie when Sean wants to defect to the US and give them the submarine, he manage to convince his crew there is a leak in the nuclear reactor. That makes his crew get of the submarine of free will, while they think their “heroic” captain will destroy the submarine, while in reality it’s a trick for him to defect. It’s this way Peter Schiff are marketing his services. He makes people convinced the dollar is on fire, so they needs his expertise to buy foreign high yielding stocks. The fact is that’s there plenty of US stocks that could protect against a weaker dollar, hyperinflation, and any of his scenarios, however he probably recognize that his services would not be that needed if he started making everyone aware of what stocks that would be.
I am of the opinion that Peter is right on many of the fundamental issues, just like Mish is riding on a bubble that he can enjoy while it lasts. Maybe there will be a major clean up in the US and there will start an infrastructure and alternative energy bubble. That would not surprise me the least.
On gold. Gold will head up if the US buy long term treasuries. I just know the psychology that drives gold, it’s not accidental that gold started to get more expensive from the day Japan started quantitative easing, those who says it did not work don’t have a clue. It did work in creating inflation. It shows in the annual reports of Japanese companies. Inflation have even been pretty bad in Japan.
Right now inflation are beginning to get through. It’s very visible in the agricultural commodities. Especially sugar.
To see the inflation trend in Japan, just take this railroad company ,and expand so you see it at max. It’s easy to see that inflation started to edge up since 2000-2001. It’s this fundamental trend, that is drives me more or less insane that those who buy into deflation totally deny.
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=9031.T
Prudentsaver,
the above statements that you have made is pure speculation on your part.
The reality is that all the countries that are USD doniminated, and there are many, such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar United and the Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Hong Kong, Taiwan, China, Malaysia, for example. The USD pegged countries that run current account surpluses will therefore continue to purchase USD denominated assets, not because they have some sympathy towards the US, but due to their policy of USD pegging and running current account surpluses, period. All these countries have no desire to remove the USD pegging as this is their means of remaining competative, although the downside is managing inflation in their countries. China the largest elephant in the room certainly has no intention of allowing the RMB to appreciate against the USD, given this is the mechanism they have used with effect to remain trade competative and that isn’t going to change any time soon. Equally, all the Gulf States pegged to the USD are unlikely to move away from USD pegging, and given most of these regimes rely on the US military to shield them gives them another reason to continue the cosy relationship. So with this in mind, the US will continue to enjoy support for their treasury paper and their deficts will be funded by the USD pegged current account surplus nations.
Blavatsky,
with regards to your query:
“A quick look at the websites of the major banks suggests that they are willing to lend about 4.5 – 4.75 times gross income. Clearly this is part of the house price problem. Does anyone have any data about the variation in lending ratios over the recent and not so recent past?”
I refer you to the paper released by demographia titled:
“5th Annual Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey: 2009 Ratings for Metropolitan Markets Australia Canada Republic of Ireland New Zealand United Kingdom United States (Data for 3rd Quarter 2008)”
It contains a detailed analysis using the median multiple (median house prices to median household incomes) of the above countries.
The link is here:
http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
When you see the data, I am sure you will see how bad the housing unafordabilty is in Australia.
For example, housing in Adelaide is more unaffordable than New York, frankly it’s just so halarious, just breaks me up thinking about it
Further, the analysis shows that Australia is most unaffordable country compared to Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, United Kingdom and the US.
This adjustment in the comming years in Australia is going to be really, really nasty. For all those, who think and feel wealthy playing the housing market over the recent years are going to feel, at the end of this catharsis are going to feel very, very much the opposite.
iconoclast, I think the countries you mention is to small to support the treasury market if you remove Asia from the equation. This month even house prices started to head up 2 % again in Norway, not a surprise after our currency have been 35 % devalued against gold in the last 12 months. Something similar will probably happen in Australia is it’s much of the same going on there.
Lets run some numbers shall we.
First of all , the next stimulus package has nothing to do with the banks. The 850 billion to one trillion being proposed is nothing more then pork and some tax cuts.
The original tarp was 700 billion.
The next tarp is being estimated to rise to at least two trillion dollars.
This is what it will cost to make a good bank bad bank scenario work.
If you listen to N Roubini, he says the number is really 4 Trillion.
Then we have the last stimulus by G W last year. I don’t remember how much that was, but it was hundreds of billions . Maybe 3 or 4 hundred .
Then you have the 7 to 8 Trillion that has been loaned out buy the Federal reserve last year . Nobody other then the feds themselves really know where this money was loaned and what was taken in return as collateral.
And we have not even disscused the fact that the federal govt is now running over a trillion dollar defecit for its general operations.
Then you have to consider the unfunded social security and medicare mediaid numbers which are being estimated at anywhere from 50 to 100 trillion dollars.
I’ll stick with Gold & Silver!
prudentsaver,
“I think the countries you mention is to small to support the treasury market if you remove Asia from the equation.”
Oh really…, why should these countries be removed, you are creating hypothetical cases which do not exist, like Schiff, et al. You hope this, and hope that, but don’t consider the facts on the ground. One can rightly put the case that what currently exists will continue. You have not given any justification for your proposition.
Norway did not participate in a housing buble like the majority of the Anglo-Saxon economies did, so I wouldn’t expect that Norway has any relevance to what happens in such bubble economies.
dojufitz,
you have merely put a hotch-potch of numbers without any analysis to go with it. I await your analysis. For unfunded social security and medicare mediaid numbers can always be repudiated, nothing is ever written in concrete.
The US is once again turned into a saving nation, the US deficit will be funded domestically and by foregin countries that a USD pegged and run current account surpluses, like China and the Gulf petro-states.
Furthermore,
if you are serious, read some sites that perform some credible analysis. I recommend you review Brad Setser’s site
http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/
to have some understanding of world trade flows, which shall play a central role in how this saga will be played out.
With regards to US debt, and in particular the metric their debt/gdp ratio, the US infact ran up a much greater ratio during World War II and then drew it down after, so it not beyond the realm of possibilities that this crisis will certainly give the US the impetus to do the same of the coming decades. One must also acknowlege that it is not the US versus the rest of the world, the rest of the world is as much in this as the US. In effect they are in a deadly-embrace, one needs the other and vice-versa, which is exactly what Schiff et al. completely ignre.
I wouldn’t worry to much about the US, many other countries, and Australia in particular, are in as much a precarious state as is the US, and in many instances even worse. The saving grace for the US is that it holds the international reserve currency and that matters. The USD denominated economies of the world, China-Gulf-America, put together are a formidible USD denomiated trading block. The US makes use of this arrangement to allow them to run deficits.
The US has major challenges ahead of it, like most countries that have gone on a debt binge, and Australia is right up with the worst culprites. There will be pain. But to extrapolate to the only outcome being economic armeggedon is ridicules.
Well, guys like Warren buffet have been saying inflation have been very high the last years, complaining about the middle class getting hammered and that it’s going to be more inflation to solve the crisis. I think what’s going to happen is that the US long term interest rates will start to trend upwards, like after 1950, but perhaps more fast. I even think that trend have been clear for some time, before the credit crisis hit, as that’s the logical outcome when China stop to mess around with the US interest rates, as long term interest rates went on a ride upwards after China started strengthening the RMB. That ride is not over. It’s like the long term interest rates in the US should be around 7-20 %, but have been kept much lower through China managing their currency. Of course this affects every country in the Anglo-Saxon area.
In Norway, prices were certainly just as high as in Australia and even higher than in the US, but inventory and building activity have been much smaller. So that they level out and rise after just a very short time suggest to me that the currency devaluation to gold, and lowering of interest rates do work, and that we are likely to get a second cycle of inflation and price rises similar to in the seventies. The other countries just needs a bigger push to clear the inventory.
The biggest confusion that exist are those of real commodity prices. We haven’t yet been anywhere near the level of oil in 1980.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/USMINE
I think we are at least halfway in a natural resources cycle.
Since the rise in natural resources employment have been just as similar to the early seventies, it just confirms my idea that inflation have been just as bad. What mess the whole thing up is that most economists trusts the CPI. The changes made to the CPI in the US since 1980 means it’s no longer a usable tool.
Inflation still at 8 %, and the federal reserve keep pumping.
http://www.shadowstats.com/imgs/sgs-cpi.gif
Hi Prudent,
Inflation has been massive. Yes, the expansion of the money supply has been growing at an astronomical level. Until early 2008 when the destruction of credit money began. This destruction of credit first started to slow the rate of increase in the money supply and then once the flood of destruction took off, reversed the growth in money supply.
Forget CPI, it is a floored lagging measure (but it still approximates changes from period to period). The money supply was inflating massively and now the money supply is deflating.
I meant to say that the CPI was flawed.
Note to self: proof read.
Bull:
My experience is that most economic professors are to theoretically oriented to ever be any good at investing, if they are poor at investing it means they don’t know anything, as money talks. I don’t think you can be a good professor without having certain practical skills. I think the process of making correct theories begins with a correct perception. Most guys like Krugman, that don’t even understand the faults with the CPI, falls off already there. I think it’s lack of intuition or common sense. What good is it to know latin if everything you hear and see is distorted. If your input are faulty, nothing good is going to come out of it. George Soros, or Warren Buffet is different. I perceive them to be geniuses or artists in what they do. I think it’s in their perception of the world it lies, the input are perceived correctly with as little bias as possible. They perceive things as they are, and don’t assume to much. I think that’s a good start. What I see now is that the practical guys seems to call for inflation, and the theoretical guys are betting on inflation. The non practical guys never get things to work in the real world, therefore the outcome must be inflation. Really simple is it not?
I meant that the theoretical people are betting on deflation, and the practical seems to be betting on inflation. I think that’s a sign inflation are coming, as those who are practical have an ability to get things to work, even they might not understand exactly why. Those who are really brilliant are those who are able to blend both worlds, like Buffet or Soros. They are betting on inflation. I think that speak for itself. As they have a track record, I guess it’s fair to say that they know more about economics than someone like Krugman.
Hello All,
I have just started
The Predator State: How Republican Economics Betrayed Us, and What We Should Do about It
By James Galbraith
Published by Simon & Schuster, 2008
ISBN 141656683X, 9781416566830
There is an excellent discussion of China from page 81-86.
The book is a corker. I think Steve K. and James G would agree on a lot of things.