I’ve just been interviewed for an SBS News piece on China (for non-Australian readers, SBS is Australia’s multicultural television station, and its news has a strong international focus).
Ordinarily I don’t comment on China, because I don’t know enough about their economy right now–except to deride the belief that was popular in Australia last year that our exports to China would insulate us from the global downturn. “Decoupling” they called it–China was supposed to have its own internal growth dynamic that would mean it would continue growing and buying our raw materials even as the OECD tanked. This theory–ironically spouted by the same people who once touted that the world is now globalised and everything affects (and benefits) everything else–is now rather less popular as China’s growth has slowed.
I expect the spruikers of that argument will query why I’m talking about China, when I normally disavow detailed knowledge of the country. So this post is to explain why I did the interview.
This SBS story isn’t about decoupling or China’s economic prospects, but about the possible political ramifications within China of the return to the countryside of all those workers who have recently lost their jobs. I have a perspective on that gained on a trip to China almost 30 years ago, when I organised the first ever conference between Chinese journalists and those of any other nation. Co-organised by the Australia-China Council and the All China Journalists Association, the conference spent four days reviewing the coverage of each country in the other’s press before we embarked on a 3 week tour of China.
This was after the fall of the “Gang of Four”, and while their trial was preceding in Beijing. It was also just after Democracy Wall had been converted into an advertising billboard–Deng’s capitalist transformation of China had begun. But there was no doubt that the Communist Party was still firmly in control–just the dominant faction at the top had changed.
Just before we departed for China, its statistical office released some very curious data: in the previous year, Chinese light industry output had risen by 17 percent, but heavy industry output had fallen by 7 percent.
This combination just didn’t make sense to the several economic journalists on the Australian delegation: how could heavy industry fall when light industry rose? Doesn’t one depend upon the other?
Our attempts to get to the bottom of this conundrum received the same answer everywhere we went–as indeed did every other question we asked. Without fail, the first answer to every question was:
“We followed the directives of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China.”
We became adept at asking “Yes, but what did you actually do?”, which would then somtimes elucidate what lay behind whatever fabulous success of China’s economic reformation we were then witnessing.
In the case of this curious pair of numbers, the answer came when we met with the Mayor of Shanghai, and an offsider who was position was quite literally translated to us as “the Economic Boss of Shanghai”. After the obligatory above answer to our question, and our request for elaboration, he answered:
“Well, the Central Committee sent a directive to promote light industry”
One more “Yes, so what did you do?” evoked the answer:
“We stripped heavy industry factories and turned them into light industry.”
At last we could make sense of the data.
The answer threw into high relief some other mysteries we’d seen on the trip–such as a model village in Sichuan province where, nonetheless, almost all children below a certain age (about five) had what appeared to us to be signs of Kwashiorkor–protein deficiency. Yet the place was being shown to us as a model commune that was successfully making the transition to commercial agriculture.
I ultimately came to believe that China’s immense size, combined with its fearfully centralised political system, was a major factor in its internal politics.
The Communist Party itself had at that time about 35 million members–roughly one in thirty of the Chinese population. It was as if the entire country was being run by the Boy Scouts. Policies would originate in possibly detailed and nuanced debate at the Central Committee level (leavened with lots of purges, banishments to the countryside, and other fun activities). The winning faction’s position would then be channelled down the funnel of the Party’s enormous membership, until it hit the local level where it would be implemented.
Local officials might well be able to foresee what might come of any given policy, but the only defence against criticism for any problems that might later arise was your unswerving implementation of it:
“I followed the directives of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China.”
All nuances were thus stripped from the policy itself to leave a bald slogan–like “Promote Grain!” or “Promote Legumes!”–which was carried out to the letter and beyond by local party officials. When the slogan was “Promote Grain!”, legume crops would be pulled out, and grain planted in their place.
Some time later, there would be a protein shortage, and peasants who had been quiescent under the Party’s iron rule (which itself was little different to the iron rule of the preceding Emperors) would rise in revolt as they looked on the faces of their deformed children.
Local Communist Party officials might well find themselves lynched–they would certainly feel like endangered species for a while–and the bad news about the policy’s unexpected side-effects would travel back up the Boy Scout line to the Central Committee. Political power would shift in favour of the legumes faction, which after a few selective banishments to the provinces and the like, would see the slogan go out “Promote Legumes!”.
Some time later, there would be a famine, and…
You get the picture. The flip-flops in policy for which China was then famous made some sense.
The last two decades of stupendous growth have given China a degree of political stability that make the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 a distant memory. But in some ways, the same dynamic is still there; it’s just that the new slogan to which unswerving fealty has been given is that of growth and globalisation.
That was, and possibly will still be, a successful policy in the long run. But its current serious decline is sending probably millions of once-were-peasants back from their coastal manufacturing jobs to the countryside, where they are likely to be unemployed and seriously disaffected.
If they emulate their parents, they may well rise up against the local Party officials; the demure acquiescence to Party authority will go out the window when the Party’s policy fails them.
When it does, there will be a political shift in China at the top as well–not necessarily an overthrow of the Western, development orientation, but certainly a strengthening of those who believe, for example, that the provinces should be developed rather than throwing all the resources at the coastal manufacturing cities.
This potential for political turmoil in the provinces, and ultimately at the Central Committee level, was the topic for SBS’s story. It should air tonight on SBS News (Wednesday January 28th at 6.30pm Sydney time).






January 28th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
hi steve,
would love for you to elaborate on the implications for china if you think their transition from an agrarian to an urban industial society stalls.
also what do you think about raising the unemployment benefit 2 to 3 fold temporarily(sunset clause) if the economy slows to much
January 28th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
This was a “whoops”–I must have hit the publish button by accident when answering a phone call. More coming…
January 28th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
I think you might be a bit dated in some of your perceptions of China gleaned 30 years ago. It is indeed a common perception that China – something like Australia – is comprised of a “rich” coastal manufacturing region surrounding an entirely rural “poor” agrarian interior where the peasants wish nothing more than to get out to the big city on the coast.
I spent some time last year in Xian, in Shaanxi provence and did some travelling there with a Chinese friend. Xian couldn’t be further from the coast but is a bustling modern city with many good hotels and fantastic restaurants that do not cater only to the vibrant tourist trade (although there are plenty of these too, but more expensive and less fantastic).
The University I visited had good, up-to-date amenities and equipment, and there appeared to be plenty of money for research. On my trips to the countryside, the workers didn’t appear as idle huddling masses but cheerful and busy (it was harvest time), and a visit to a local village restaurant for lunch showed the place to be busy and serving excellent food. I do not know the basis of the local industry, but it appeared to be thriving and I doubt if it was entire export oriented. So I am more optimistic for China : people might say publicly what they should for the interpreter to translate, but many have been through the Cultural Revolution and , on the whole, they are not stupid.
On a separate theme Gary North has suggested the following for the Mises/Fisher debate that may determine our own future :
“If Mises was correct, the expansion of the monetary base will be matched by an expansion of the monetary aggregates, and this will lead to extreme price inflation on a scale comparable to the increase of the monetary base. The monetary base has doubled since last September. On the other hand, if Fisher was correct, and if velocity is crucial, then we will not see an increase of prices comparable to the increase of the monetary base. We might even see slightly decreasing prices.”
Do you agree with this simple clear-cut analysis?
January 28th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
I hope you’re right Gordon, and I accept that my inland-coastal perceptions are dated. That’s why I normally refuse to comment on China’s current economic performance and prospects–I just don’t know enough about it these days to comment.
Mind you, I had some pretty good food and times in Sichuan 30 years ago, and it appeared bustling then too, though nothing on the recent scale of course.
However I expect that if there is massive dislocation courtesy of an economic crisis, then there will be the same feedback process between rural discontent and political change, which is why I agreed to do the interview.
On the Mises analysis, I side with Fisher, but not for the same reasons given by North. Velocity of money isn’t a useful indicator because both the price level and the money supply fall.
My next post outlines why I agree that we won’t get inflation out of Bernanke’s increases in M0 though–despite his best attempts to cause it.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
No matter which way you care to cut it, there is no way that domestic demand inside China will make up for the collapse in demand for Chinese exports. That point of equilibrium is decades away – the problem China faces is very much in the here and now.
When all is said and done, it will come down to how ruthless the ruling Party will choose to be in holding down it’s disgruntled citizens. Because rural unemployment in China is about to explode. They hope to soak up that labour force in infrastructure projects but whether that will be sufficient we shall see. The jury is out on that one.
In the meantime China will revert to tried and true means of taking whatever market share is available for its manufactured goods: currency manipulation, export credits, increasing the basic wage etc.
OFF this Topic but;
Yesterday I noted how KRudds Govt is setting Australia up for the deficit poorhouse and the dangers of the Australian Govt playing banker for commercial property with YOUR tax dollars.In the US and UK CRE (Commercial Real Estate )is being DECIMATED……. another black hole being filled in with taxpayer bailout dollars.I mentioned Krudds ultimate goal to bail out Australian mortgages. Low and behold today;
“THE Government’s bailout of the commercial property sector is intended to forestall a rout in property values that could spill into the private housing market.
A leading conservative economist, Access Economics adviser Ian Harper, said yesterday the danger to the housing market was so great that public intervention was warranted. ”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24973301-25658,00.html
Do you get it? If residential house prices are so sound, why is it that such extreme measures are on the drawing boards? Is Australia aware that it’s Govt is about to sink untold billions into propping up mortgages and house prices??
We are now firmly on the path to a US and UK style recession. They started this way too;
“”With the minus 2.2 per cent growth rate for November, we are now reporting the first negative reads for growth since May 2001,” Mr Evans said.
“In the past, this has been a useful signal of the likelihood of Australia experiencing a recession.”
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-business/aussie-recession-risk-increases-index-20090128-7rd5.html
Gold: In the end you need to put your cash /savings, super somewhere. If this (the foregoing) is to be Australia’s approach to it’s financial systemic challenges during this crisis then you better think carefully about what has the best chance of retaining any value in that environment. Because all I can see is massive Govt effort directed into policies that serve to debase our currency.
January 28th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Chinese boom
Manufacture and supply of cheap cargo to the west.
Pegged exchange rates and slave labour.
Centrally controlled.
West consumes more cargo that can pay for!
West puts it “on the slate”.
Unlimited credit!
Credit corrupts the western economies.
Communists winning.
West goes broke.
China goes broke.
Useless “economics” of the neo classical type.
Communism’s pyrrhic victory?
January 28th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Frankly Steve I think you would have been well advised not to comment on a country you have not visited for 30 years. China ha changed enormously since I first visited it in 1985 – let alone the ’70’s. I would not venture to comment as someone who knows China reasonably well, and speaks some putonghua but has not travelled in China for 2 years.
Historically there have always been tensions between central government and provinces – it was not called an Empire by accident – and these tensions are exacerbated in times of crisis.
The Communist party secretary remains the most important person in most communities (followed in importance by the mayor). Statistics often reflect what provincial and state government require so they must be treated with caution. Beyond that one would need a lot of information before commenting further.
There has been a great deal of unrest in recent years some resulting from abuses by officials, for example in sequestrating land used by peasants over many years into developments for their own purposes (individual title to land is highly limited even though it has recently been extended). Every year there are hundreds of protests most unreported.
Will the economic downturn reduce such protests, as development potential becomes less attractive or will protests take other forms such as an increase in protests about unfair labour treatment? I would not dare speculate as China is a vast country with differing cultural norms and levels of economic development from one region to another.
The Central government record in maintaining stability is impressive founded upon economic progress and a willingness to use force when necessary. There is also strong appreciation of the achievements and pride in the country. These are elements that can be harnessed by the Central government especially if the blame is pinned on the West, which was already happening in 2008.
These are questions very few can answer. They are best avoided. You have a fine reputation among those who think such as the bloggers and plenty of enemies. Don’t risk giving the enemies ammunition.
January 28th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Points taken Neil. Cheers, Steve
January 29th, 2009 at 8:32 am
Well this is the thing, hardly anyone seems to know much of any importance about China, which makes forecasting economics a bit like trying to forecast the weather without knowing anything about the moon. Let’s get some facts and start digging.
A friend of mine lived there recently for 5 years or so. He says that the major cities are as free market Western bloodthirsty capitalist as it gets. Occasionally they got in Shanghai these crackdowns, like closing a few expat bars and so on, but they were little more than symbolic.
Out in the sticks, it was all the typical corruption of local authorities you’d expect in that kind of economy, and in the villages its all pretty frugal. Not too different from here where I am in Eastern Europe but to a much greater degree.
One thing is for sure, the younger generations in the cities didn’t live through famine and revolution. They’ve grown up with all the mod cons. They won’t tolerate a return to the bad old days and they won’t swallow communist ideology as a substitute for food. The city bosses have a lot of leeway with the central authorities. They generate a lot of cash.
Another thing is for sure, the central authority is mostly scared of unemployment and social unrest.
Another thing is for sure, they have a lot of cash, a lot of dollars.
So, the city bosses are going to be looking for ways to keep things running, and the central bosses are going to be open to ideas that keep the economy growing and keep everyone’s much higher standards satisfied.
They would in theory be willing to dump all of those dollar surpluses back into the US if it guaranteed getting the same amount back while keeping exports up to keep people employed. Would anyone dispute that?
But the US isn’t a safe bet. So what are they going to do? Diversify. And this is what they are doing.
So what are their options? The way I see it their options are (not in any particular order):
a) Invest in police and brutally beat the expectations of a high living standard out of everyone for a generation
b) Invest in propaganda and blame everything on some external evil-doer and declare war on someone
c) Invest heavily in some economy they could export to, and I guess it would have to be the US or the EU because of the currency status
d) Try to improve domestic consumption of domestically produced goods and become less of an export driven system.
e) Anything else?
Whatever, one other thing is for sure, the central authorities will have to act at some point, and whatever they do will have to be something dramatic.
January 29th, 2009 at 9:53 am
Check out Martin Wolf’s (the Financial Time’s economics editor) piece on debt levels with some great charts; the most mainstream article on the subject I’ve seen yet.
You hope this gets forwarded to the folks at Davos!
http://www.ft.com/home/uk
(you have to register and it’s free)
January 29th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Don’t believe what you read about China in the mainstream media, or the official Chinese GDP numbers. China is not experiencing a “growth recession”, or a “slowdown”, its a recession recession.
Check out this chart: Watch out China is slowing rapidly
Brad Setser says …
January 29th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Don’t believe what you read about China in the mainstream media, or the official Chinese GDP numbers. China is not experiencing a “growth recession”, or a “slowdown”, its a recession recession.
Check out this chart: Watch out China is slowing rapidly
Brad Setser says …
(apologies for the double-post … screwed up the first one)
January 29th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
I have no doubt that there will be an increase in demonstrations etc. within China as the economy slows. However I’m not sure it will amount to much & don’t believe there will be enough of a critical mass to cause any changes . . . however these type of things in dictatorial systems only ever explode suddenly. It was certainly “all good” when last I was there (a couple of months before the Olympics).
What I still don’t understand is how will the CCP pay for their stimulus package? Aren’t their hands tied in that if they take their $1.8Tr out of US bonds etc. this will cause the US$ etc to fall, this will mean other creditors i.e. middle east nations will pull their even bigger sums? Result a bankrupt US or at least a weaker dollar which means less buying of Chinese exports.
Also why is everyone just focused on China? What about the oil based economies of the middle east who have lost huge amounts of oil based income and have far more held in US bonds etc. Won’t they have a bigger effect than China on western economies and potential for social unrest that may affect us more (i.e. Iran)
January 29th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Off Topic: Adam Carr says deflation can’t happen with a fiat currency: Forget the deflation bogeyman
January 29th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Following once again the ’sociological’ and political factors on the ‘gfc’, I am fascinated by the sheer uslessness of the political system to cope. The two party system has no idea, taking its direction and news from the foreign economic advisors, the same people who started the mess!Nothing is funnier than to see the opposition trying hard to remain relevant (Mr Turnbull commented that no one bothered to consult him (unlike Obama, who consulted with the republicans!)The same ‘political players’ (Mainly Mr Rudd and Mr Swann) are simply saying (at every opportunity)It was not me! blame the ‘gfc’!showing inadvertently (to the thinking person)well then, the 2 party political system may be, in effect, useless!We have not REALLY governed nor controlled OUR OWN FATE IN AUSTRALIA! No original thinking!No foresight from the ‘reserve’ Nada! God help us all!!
January 29th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
True that Carbonsink, The better people have it the less the want to disrupt the status quo.
Off topic also, but I saw a plan by Karl Denninger the other day that instead of using $350 billion propping up failed institutions that the US should have used that cash to start 10 new banks each capitised with $35 billion each while send existing failed institutions bankrupt rather than nationalising them.
This would restore faith that the banks are capitialised and that credit markets could unfreeze. It sounds like a better solution to me than propping up zombie banks and leaving the incompetent managers that got them into the situation in the first place in their jobs.
Is this better, and if so should our government be looking down this road (if required) rather than the one the US and EU took, which doesn’t seem to be working???
January 29th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Having read through Demographia’s report, it blames government restrictions and regulations on land as the sole cause of the housing bubbles that have recently occurred. It mentions that relaxed credit standards (read: subprime/Alt-A) can’t be the cause of the housing bubbles, as some markets in affected countries has stable income-price ratios, while other housing markets experienced bubble-pricing.
Is the land regulation theory plausible or the rantings of rich property developers?
January 29th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Good post Carbonsink,
I read what Carr had to say. What a load of hogwash. He calls himself senior economist. I think I would rather hear from the juniors.
There is a graph floating around. I have seen it published on elliotwave and then by Mish. The graph shows changes to the monetary base in the US over the last 100 years. The only two times the graph spikes up vertical are now and during the great depression.
Once again they are ignoring the massive levels of debt the World is in.
January 29th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
ned, the problem with letting the banks go bankrupt and out of existence is that it will lock up a fair amount of money while it is sorted out. We need part of the financial system that reliably shuffles money through. This is something that will need to be considered in the future, banks should be restricted from taking part in speculative activities and retail banking at the same time.
January 29th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
hi steve,
interesting points re china- actually i think their 1 child policy is going to come back to bite the central government. a generation of spoilt brats with a sense of entitlement- if pressure for democratisation of some kind doesnt take hold in the nest 30years with a gusto i will be astounded.
on another point-what do you think about the idea of doubling or trippling the unemployment benefit temporarily if the slowdown is much worse than expected. it would mean very large deficits for a couple of years . is it better than trying to bail out everyone and expensive make work programs that favour some but not others
January 29th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
hi ned,
i think you would have to sympathise with mr denninger. too many of these corpoations are too big. they need to be broken up. the banks, coles, woolies, oil companies. in the first half of the 20th century america had to deal with the robber barons which led to the rise of competition law in america and the break up of various monopolies. well it seems that we have a new batch of robber barons albeit incompetant ones,so we may need to re visit the whole issue of the size and anti competitive behavior of these corporations. i thought in the US , part of being a capitalist was the right to go broke. the government with its bailouts for the big end of town is aiding and abbetting these new robber barons. not only have these guys lost our money but now the government is helping them rob the taxpayer blind. mr denninger may be right, let the big end of town go broke and help the small end of town which managed their money wisely, cover the gap
January 29th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
spot on ‘tommyt’, just as Wayne is AGAIN
reassuring us today, that
“the Govt is acting decisively”.
And all the Govt parrots keep belting out this most warn bit of proaganda crap we have been subjected to for a long time
(apologies to Lyn Kosky here in Vic).
They just have the emphasis on the wrong word
- it should be on “acting” !
January 29th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Another quicky, didn’t want anyone to miss the last post of the previous section ( which I think often happens when people just work from Steve’s ‘new’ page)
“Paul Nollen” left the following link which needs to be buffered and then watched through, but it is really worth the exercise.
http://cspanjunkie.org/?p=1724
Then think, who are the likely candidates to play this role in Australia?
January 29th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
hi steve,
remember coming across a paper examining the comparative economic developement of china since deng , and russia since the collapse of the soviet union. think it was done in 1998 so it might not be relevant now. but the basic conclusion was that the chinese had made a much better hash of it. the reason, they started with a relatively clean sheet. they had much less socialist style industrial archictecure to work around or dismantle. the russians were apparently much better at being modern day industrial socialists than the chinese ever were
January 29th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Hi Steve,
I am wondering how many hits you are getting on this blog and from where these hits are coming. I have this (maybe foolish) idea that there is an increasing trend of hits originating from OZ.
Matt
January 29th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
al49er(and Paul Nollen) – I can’t imagine anyone in Australian politics (the major parties anyway) having the intelligence, ethics and integrity of Kucinich. As soon as they were found out they would be crushed out of whatever party they were in. Maybe the Greens could support someone like Kucinich.
Anyone here got money in commercial property?
January 29th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
‘nanks’ your Bob is too partisan,
Kucinich is clearly making a bi partisan call to both the major parties which like it or not, is the only way the sort of ‘radical’ moves he is proposing ( The Federal Gov’t actually taking conrol of “the Fed”) could ever get up.
Apart form a public ‘uprising’ of course –
but the average pleb doesn’t know or give a toss whose ‘got the levers and how they work’.
January 30th, 2009 at 6:05 am
I think China will get a big problem unless they are able to create some relief for all those workers, however it seems to me that there is a solution to the crisis.
Any economist I have seen seems to think it’s a bad idea for China to let their RMB strengthen more, especially for their exports but the Chinese, they are very proud of their currency, and someone might wonder why on earth they would want a stronger currency in this crisis, as they stopped letting it get stronger in around the Olympics.
I think the possible implications for a restart of the process of a stronger RMB could have these implications:
1. The speculative flow of money into China, restart. Increased demand for commodities, increasing inflation.
It’s the speculative flow of money and the effects of that money on global demand through all the different effects it causes, that economists fail to discount.
2. A blow to the US long bonds, yields go higher, the yield curve get steep, inflation make a come back, house prices level out starts to rise again, increasing demand for Chinese goods, despite the more expensive yuan.
I think the perception that the yuan will get stronger, and are getting stronger, could be enough to reboot the global economy, and I think a stronger yuan, could increase, not decrease demand for Chinese goods. All it takes is the perception that the Chinese really have and undervalued currency, that are getting stronger, when that exists, everyone get into the inflation psychology, and that would be good for the global economy now. That’s why I think the Chinese, no matter what they are thinking, should let the yuan get stronger.
It could happen that they let it get stronger, and, none of the things that happened when they did it from 2005-2008 resume, if that’s the case, then it will be a failed experiment, but if it succeed, then that’s what the global economy needs. If deflation takes hold, then I think the Chinese are in a much bigger risk of hyperinflation, compared to if they take advantage of the perception of their undervalued currency, while inflation is still a concern in the markets.
So basically, I think they indirectly can control our inflation, with their currency, and if they let it get stronger and Chinese products get more expensive, paradoxically it will cause demand for Chinese goods, to go up, not down.
What happened in the period the Chinese let their currency get stronger can be seen here:
http://www.investmenttools.com/futures/bdi_baltic_dry_index.htm
They started in mid 2005, and stopped at around june 2008, had they went on, I think they boom also had went on.
January 30th, 2009 at 6:50 am
Couldn’t agree more BullturnedBear-Carr’s piece is so exceptional (though I expect many neoclassical economists believe the same thing) that it’s going in the Brickbats page.
My next Debtwatch explains why we’re not in fact in a fiat money system–in the same sense that, as in the parable about the blind men and the elephant, the fact that an elephant has a trunk doesn’t make it a snake.
January 30th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Prudentsaver – very interesting, I must think about what you said.
By the way – had some trouble getting on to the site just now. I hope there are backups!
January 30th, 2009 at 8:38 am
I think the whole idea of unrest in China is overblown….. I think Will Durant had it right.
The Story of Philosophy was published in 1926 by Simon & Schuster and became a bestseller, giving the Durant’s the means to travel the world several times and allowing Will Durant to spend four decades writing the eleven volume opus “The Story of Civilization.”
This is what Durant wrote sometime in the 1920’s as he concluded his history of China and reflected on its future. (the emphasis is mine).
This nation, after three thousand years of grandeur and decay, of repeated deaths and resurrections exhibits today all the physical and mental vitality that we find in its most creative periods.
There are no people in the world more vigorous or more intelligent. No other people so adaptable to circumstance, so resistant to disease, so resilient after disaster and suffering, so trained by history to calm endurance and patient recovery. Imagination cannot describe the possibilities of a civilization mingling the physical, labor and mental resources of such a people with the technological equipment of modern industry. Very probably such wealth will be produced in China as even American has never known and once again, as so often in the past, China will lead the world in luxury and the art of life.
No victory of arms or tyranny of alien finance can long suppress a nation so rich in resources and vitality…… Within a century China will have absorbed and civilised its conquerors and will have learnt all the techniques of … industry..
Roads and communications will give her unity, economy and thrift will give her funds and a strong government will give her order and peace. Every chaos is a transition. In the end disorder cures and balances itself with dictatorship. Old obstacles are roughly cleared away and fresh growth is freed. Revolution, like death and style, is the removal of rubbish, the surgery of the superfluous; it comes only when there are many things ready to die. China has died many times before and many times she has been reborn.
January 30th, 2009 at 8:39 am
Prudentsaver – I thought. I cannot concur. Pessimism prevails and will until political leaders can provide radical social change, or perceived change. Conditions must change, for better or for worse it doesn’t matter, but so long as it seems as some leader caused the change, rather than some nebulous ‘economy’. When things seem like they are under control, people will accept new regulations and become cautiously optimistic.
January 30th, 2009 at 9:53 am
More on debt deflation at Biz Spectator:
Debt deflation debacle
Straight out of the Steve Keen play book? I don’t think there’s much Steve will disagree with in this interview…
January 30th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Excerpt of article by Ilargi on The Auto Earth
“These are the OCC’s numbers:
Notional Amount Of Derivative Contracts, Top 25 Holding Companies In Derivatives
September 30, 2008, In $ Millions
1. JPMorgan $91,339,207
2. Bank Of America $39,979,154
3. Citigroup $38,186,196
The total assets of these three banks are $3.9 trillion, which is a somewhat questionable number, since we don’t know what the assets -which they largely valued themselves, are. But it’s still, as Martin Weiss pointed out, 43 times the amount the banks have thus far received in government assistance. However, even more significant is that JPMorgan’s derivatives amount to 400 times its alleged assets. Talk about leverage.”
Excerpt from Article by Bruce Vanderveen on Seeking Alpha.
“The US Dept. of Treasuries OCC’s Quarterly Report (see page 23) shows just how deeply the mega-banks are into derivatives. Bank of America has assets of $1.836 trillion and derivatives of $39.979 trillion, (mostly swaps). With the demise of the Shadow Banking System (non bank financial institutions), trading derivatives is much more difficult. If marked to market, one wonders just how much of a loss would be realized in this $39.979 trillion portfolio. Nobody, who will talk about it anyway, seems to know. It wouldn’t take much to wipe out $1.8 trillion in assets.”
My comments:
Derivatives are still the massive skeleton in the closet. Banks’ assets have crashed because of loan defaults. With derivatives there are some winners and losers. (mostly losers lately). The small number of winners must be upset because they can’t collect on their winnings (there is no money behind the trades) and the losers must have given up hope a year ago.
When even a small part of this skeleton emerges from the closet the system is broken. The collective governments of the world can’t raise or create the money to bail out the real asset failures of the banks let alone the shadow assets (derivatives). The world would have to borrow from the martians to bail out the liabilities facing the banks via their derivatives gambling.
Governments guaranteeing against further asset losses at the banks is stupid. But, if the governments start to talk about guaranteeing the derivatives exposures. I no longer want to be a tax payer.
We would all have to consider moving to a new country that didn’t waste ours and our childrens’ money on folly.
January 30th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Actually Lacy Hunt advocates tax cuts to stimulate job creation, which I doubt Steve agrees with. But apart from that its straight out of the Steve Keen play book. Lacy is a big fan of Fisher as well.
January 30th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Carbonsink you misses out the part about what Dr.Lacy Hunt had to say about Irving Fisher vs Milton Friedman.
Biz Spectator:Debt deflation debacle
Dr Lacy Hunt, of Hoisington Investment Management, talks to Business Spectator’s Isabelle Oderberg
“The great American economist Irving Fisher who did the pioneering work in debt deflation. Milton Friedman the Nobel Laureate called Irving Fisher the greatest’ economist that America ever produced’. One of the Fisher’s great competitors during his lifetime was Joseph Schumpeter [an Austrian economist] who taught at Harvard. Fisher was at Yale. Schumpeter said Fisher was the brightest man that he ever met.
Fisher, who did the seminal work in debt deflation, lays out the case that once you have in a period of extreme over indebtedness and a price disturbance began, the price level or the value of the assets falls and the income generating capacity of the assets falls, that it controls all or nearly all other economic variables. That’s a contrary view to what Milton Friedman said. Friedman contended that if the Fed had prevented the decline in the money supply during the Great Depression the velocity of money which is outside the Feds control would have stabilised. So would have nominal GDP and the Depression would have [been avoided]. Fisher takes a different view.
Once we’ve got the extreme over indebtedness, really there’s nothing that we can do and one of the problems is that the velocity of money is likely to fall very sharply and although the Fed has managed to increase the money supply, velocity has dropped even more sharply and that’s why nominal GDP is falling so at least in the early stages of this difference of opinion between Friedman and Fisher, Fisher appears to be correct.
The great American economist Irving Fisher who did the pioneering work in debt deflation. Milton Friedman the Nobel Laureate called Irving Fisher the greatest’ economist that America ever produced’. One of the Fisher’s great competitors during his lifetime was Joseph Schumpeter [an Austrian economist] who taught at Harvard. Fisher was at Yale. Schumpeter said Fisher was the brightest man that he ever met.
Fisher, who did the seminal work in debt deflation, lays out the case that once you have in a period of extreme over indebtedness and a price disturbance began, the price level or the value of the assets falls and the income generating capacity of the assets falls, that it controls all or nearly all other economic variables. That’s a contrary view to what Milton Friedman said. Friedman contended that if the Fed had prevented the decline in the money supply during the Great Depression the velocity of money which is outside the Feds control would have stabilised. So would have nominal GDP and the Depression would have [been avoided]. Fisher takes a different view.
Once we’ve got the extreme over indebtedness, really there’s nothing that we can do and one of the problems is that the velocity of money is likely to fall very sharply and although the Fed has managed to increase the money supply, velocity has dropped even more sharply and that’s why nominal GDP is falling so at least in the early stages of this difference of opinion between Friedman and Fisher, Fisher appears to be correct.”
January 30th, 2009 at 10:48 am
No I didn’t. I said Lacy is big fan of Fisher, as is Prof. Keen.
January 30th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
This is an interesting graph:
A possible solution I see is that China will give in to US pressure and buy less treasuries, and therefore let the RMB rise. Japan however, could step in, as they have stopped buying treasuries. That would give a stronger RMB, a weaker YEN, and a weaker dollar. I am sure that would give the markets liquidity, if the federal reserve and bank of japan starts to target long term interest rates to, I’m pretty sure the music will play again.
I think there is built up fustration in Japan, with the strong YEN, at the same time they are fustrated with their dependence on the US. Japan have been great, they are a nation of warriors, more aggressive than the Chinese. They could finish their dumping of dollar assets, I think they know that if China step down buying, and they step up, they will be left holding the bag. This ambivalence between export growth, and desire of independence of the US, perhaps an Asian currency zone, and ambitions for greatness, is a big conflict I think.
January 30th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
http://www.nowandfutures.com/images/yen_nikkei.png
The graph, this show the USD/YEN, and the nikkei index with a 52 months lag.
The logic is that when the dollar get as low towards the yen as now, typically some intervention have happened in the past, that tends to boost market’s with liquidity.
January 30th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
From the Lacy Hunt interview “Government spending, the government sector in the US, the productivity is at best zero and perhaps slightly negative, so when we enlarge the government sector and shrink the private sector we reduce the growth, potentiality, of the US economy. We shrink the pie and we make things worse off. ”
While I don’t exactly agree with this, it is something to keep in mind. Given that government will be paying a minimal wage to people for doing nothing it makes sense to pay them to do something useful provided that it doesn’t pay well. The turn around in the end will be private business deciding the time is ripe to start reinvesting.
January 30th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
BullturnedBear,
totally agreed with your take on Carr. This factiod I have seen been repeated by many often.
His facile argument ignores broad money, which is composed of credit, or debt money, which also makes up, by far, the largest component of the money supply. The money supply is not only composed of the money base, M1 and M3 components, but also of debt money.
Debt money is being destroyed at a far greater rate than the increase in the monetary base. Thus, the overall money supply is contracting, which infers deflation. Further, the expansion of the money base has no effect, if the money multiplier collapses, which it has shown to do exactly that. Thus, there is no effective increase in the money supply, by merely looking at whether the monetary base is growing. That is the only aspect that the central banks have in tackling this problem, but it isn’t enough and it won’t work.
His simplictic argument about the gold standard ignores the fact that this is not the only dynamic, in a complex dynamic system, that influences the growth or othewise of the money supply.
Further, his reference to Zimbabwe demonstrates his absolute and utter ignorance, when comapring an economy that has collapsed due to eceonomic mismanagement to what is occuring as a consequence of this financial crisis, that is to say, a solvency crisis brought about by excessive build up of credit, over time, being directed towards malinvestments.
I would have been ashamed to write an article showing such ignorance. It is truely amazing. He should try to actually think, but maybe that is not possible.
January 30th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
What would repricing Gold do?
I read a German report of a Barclays bank economist calling for Gold to be reprice at 40,000Euro an ounce?
Would that help?
January 30th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
dojufitz,
you mean the gold bubble, how ridicules.
The following article
http://www.rgemonitor.com/financemarkets-monitor/255339/the_golden_age_of_recession
on the RGE website, as an example of many, makes valid arguments as to why gold is a bubble that will also burst. As the article points out “The Government would not want a flight to safety to be gold. It is in the interest of our government to keep Treasuries and US Dollars as the “flight to quality”… and for this reason you will never see an insurable backstop of gold, and continually see a powerful government keep the commodity in check as a “flight to quality”.” That is, gold is being kept out of the game whether the tin foil hat brigade like it or not.
Another germane point, based on a comparison of properties of gold and platinum, where both have similar intrinsic characteristics, save platinum being scarcer than gold, you might want to lean towards platinum rather than gold
There are strong dynamics that are in effect during such a crisis that limit the expansion of the money supply. That being, the excessive credit attatched to mispriced assets relative to these assets earning capacity. In an economy that has reached such a inflexion point, there are few business propositions in the economy that make sense pursuing at their current valuations, which had been backed by the easy credit initially provided to allow such malinvestments to be manifested. Increasing the monetary base on it’s own won’t make the present economic climate suddenly present itself with sensible investments to be pursued by a rational investor. Thus, there is no reason to lend nor to borrow, which therefore, implies no credit growth and expansion in the money supply.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
It seems Japan, Australia’s other major trading partner, is in even worse shape than China:
Global slowdown stuns Japan’s economy
But still the optimists say, Australia is different, we’ll escape with a mild slowdown, our banking system is sound, our budget is in surplus, our house prices cannot fall.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Someone reminded me today that the US is sucking out all of China’s (and Japan’s) savings and reserves which they have accrued over the last 2-3 decades, via the selling of bonds- to ensure the US and the western powers reign supreme.
The same thing happened with the oil-rich Arabs. The West bought the oil, and in return sold the Arabs arms, goods, planes and bonds. When they couldn’t stock any more of these the Arabs started putting their money into western companies and buying real estate. Then when the Arabs wanted to cash in their assets, the west duly told them to go and shove it. ie by making sure the middle east is a rotten place having a war in there every 10 years or so and creating a need for more arms and security.
China too, wanted in on this global asset hunt as we all know by trying to buy anything they could get their hands on, be it IBM, a gold mine in Aus or an oil field in the Middle East etc.
It was sort of OK for Japan to do it because theirs was mostly private money, but for China, Russia and the Arabs to use centralised power and centralised funds to buy into and control global assets is not on as far as the West is concerned.
There is no way in hell the US and UK will want to be in a situation where the Arabs, the Russians and the Asians (amongst other resource-rich-cash-positive and debt-free countries)are dictating terms…
Hence why the consumer is king and not the producer.
Well it couldn’t go on forever could it?
And this fuels the fire of those conspiracy theorists who believe that one world government and the real new world order is coming.
So whilst we sit here and try to theorise over petty economic models, the powers that be are probably right where they want to be at this stage.
Change will come when we get pissed off at the policies of our government for trying to make us go and get yet another credit card and spend spend spend. Same as the Chinese farmers and peasants who voice their disagreements when their government tries and fails to use them as guinea pigs as means for their own ends.
The problem was always, where to go next after China and India. The answer is of course nowhere. That’s it. No more growth (unless we find an alien population out there in space with a dire need for salt water….)
January 30th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Time will tell – iconoclast
I don’t think investing in the biggest debtor on the planet is such a smart thing to do.
i’ll stick with my Gold & Silver bullion.
January 30th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
dojufitz,
I would have expected more than just that to justify your position. But please do so, stick with your metals, although you have been warned
amash,
your prescient point about the basis of the capatilist system, which is premised on exponential growth as one of its core directives will be it’s undoing. It is not sustainable and will be replaced, like it or not.
January 30th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
hi iconoclast,
agreed. due to dollar hegemony gold isnt giong up in any significant way anytime soon. but i disagree that there is very much downside risk. look at it this way. if you have a dollar or two left over from the debacle of the last 12 months what would you do. you want to be in cash, but what currency. the US dollar is the only game in town. thats the rational thing to do. but your nerves are rattled and youve lost all most as much hair as poor mr benanke has in recent years , so you will also want to be in gold in small way as well. why ?. gold is money. all beit its hard for you to lug those gold bars around as you head to the dealership to trade in your ferrari for an alfa . you are happy to keep your money in the bank at the moment, but you are starting to think the chaps running the bank are only slightly less shifty than the carpet salesman you bought your persian from, so just incase the day comes, when you go to the atm and you cant get your money out, and you end up having a homer simpson moment, you will have a bit of gold tucked away somewhere, even though your not sure if its going to help you.
its a hedge against total financial sytem meltdown when no one can get their hands on cold hard cash. and if things go the otherway and we take the zimbabweyan approach to economic management the same applies. its a safe anxiety based each way bet, and given the fact that market analysts are thrashing about like cut snakes, no one knows for certain what the outcome will be.
so until normal transmission is resumed in the worlds financial markets, i think a fairly solid psychological floor has been placed under the value of gold atleast until the situation in the US financial system and economy starts to improve. and that could be years away.
the only way this floor will be broken in the short term is if the sceming central bankers association decide to drive the price down in the absense of any countervailing demand. so a falling gold price may not be an accurate reflection of the increased propensity of investors to have small holdings of gold and the trend towards hard assetts.
in the long run (30 to 40 years) i can only see gold going up significantly. geopolitics is going to overide anything central bankers might attempt in the long term. what we are in the midst of is a transition of power in every sense of the word from the west to the east , namely china and india. its going to be messy and ugly. instability on a scale human history has never witnessed before, so any reference to golds behavior in past periods of instability will be meaningless.
being from the sub continent myself i am in a good position to explaine the lustre of gold in the eyes of an indian. next time you see an indian women pay close attention to the gold she is wearing, its almost pure gold, not the crap they sell in this country. over a billion indians with increasing incomes are well and truely overide any ability of central bankers to manipulate the supply demand gap for gold in the future. gold is going up up up in the long run
January 30th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
Greetings mahaish,
the US dollar is still the only game in town, given that it is still the reserve currency. It isn’t going to go away any time soon, even if it were to be replaced, there are other alternatives than any suggestion of reverting back to the archaic metal. The alternative reserve currency could be composed of a basket of currencies, such as, the Yen, Euro, RMB and the USD. So in a multi-polar world, now unfolding, the USD hegemony will wane, to be replaced with a currency basket made up in some proportion relative to the included currencies importance in foreign trade.
If you believe that the USD will be devalued through the US governments stimulus efforts or through its massive issuance of treasuary paper, well you wouldn’t want to be holding an asset that is denominated in USD, would you?
For there to be a complete financial system meltdown, we would be facing a point where the concept of the nation state has failed, being replaced by essentially anarchy. If this occurs, well, I would suggest we would have more pressing problems other than how much gold we can hoard. So I don’t accept your argument on that premise. With respect to hyper-inflationary environment again, have a look at Zimbabwe and the state of it’s society and how valuable a lump of gold is in such an environment. Infact, what is happening in Zimbabwe is that they are now accepting the USD as the alternative hard currency in day-to-day exchange, not gold. In any case, in such a hyper-inflationary environment other forms of direct trade, such as direct bartering will likely be more prevalent than the use of gold.
The power shift will take generations, like all empires when they cease to be the hegemon, they generally loose that status over an extended time frame, not suddenly. Further, there is no guarantee that this will even occur, much can go wrong and it is far from signed, sealed and delivered. On this point, what makes you believe that if such a transition were to occur it will turn out to be messy, on what basis do you come to that conclusion?
mahaish, your point about gold’s lustre, well, it may have appeal in jewelry, but that does not translate to it being a form of currency in modern economies.
January 30th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
Hi Dojufitz,
You may well be right that Gold and Silver are going to go up and up. My belief is that gold is in a kind of bubble caused by fear and misplaced bullish sentiment. Remember two points about gold which free of emotion and fear.
1. The US has a massive amount of debt. Debt must be repaid in cash (not gold). The herd has now decided it wants to repay debt and not keep borrowing more. This process will continue for years to come. Therefore to repay debt the herd must sell assets to raise dollars (not gold).
2. The demand to raise dollars to pay off debt causes the US dollar to rise. I know there is a lot of fear that the US will default and their currency will crash. This may well happen in the future. For the time being though the dominant force is debt reduction. This is bullish for the US dollar. As the US dollar appreciates the value of gold tends to fall.