Two days ago the FBI indicted Bernie Madoff, principal of Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, on securities fraud. Though the case has yet to run, in the indictment the FBI reported that Madoff confessed that his was “basically a giant Ponzi Scheme” that may have lost some extremely high net worth individuals over US$50 billion.
Madoff’s firm was famous for returning constant positive results, even on a month by month basis, for decades. As Henry Blodget on Yahoo’s Tech Ticker reports below, many Wall Street professionals were incredulous of these results, but invested in his firm anyway–because they thought his returns must be coming from him exploiting his “market maker” role on the Nasdaq to do insider trading.
This in itself is a delicious commentary on the oxymoron of self-regulating financial markets. Insider trading is illegal, but many bigwigs on the Street were quite willing to risk their money with someone whom they thought could only be making that much money if he were breaking the law.
In fact, he was breaking the law, but not that way: rather than making profits from insider trading and then funnelling part of the proceeds to those who gave him the funds with which to do it, he was simply taking in principal from “investors” and paying it back to them as interest.
This is what qualifies his (alleged) activities as Ponzi Scheme, named after Charles Ponzi,* whose dream of a means to get rich quick by arbitrage on International Reply Coupons (IRC) turned into a giant financial fraud.
* Incidentally, while I link to the Wikipedia entry on Ponzi and his scheme, it’s somewhat inaccurate on Ponzi’s early history, and also leaves out important attenuating facts about him. By far the best reference is the brilliantly researched and beautifully written Ponzi’s Scheme: The True Story of a Financial Legend by Mitchell Zuckoff. Read it and you will learn that, in addition to turning into a somewhat inadvertent but large scale swindler, Ponzi also literally gave the skin off his own back–and on two separate occasions–to save the life of a nurse who had suffered horrific burns. I can’t see many of those accused of running a Ponzi Scheme these days giving anyone the shirt off their backs, let alone their own skin.
Ponzi believed he had stumbled on a path to riches when he received an IRC in the mail and then found that it was mispriced around the world. IRCs were designed to facilitate communication. Person A in country X could write to person B in country Y, and enclose an IRC that person B could then exchange for a postage stamp for the reply.
Great idea, except that the prices were set before the First World War, and not adjusted after it. For argument’s sake, let’s say the price for an IRC was 1 dollar in the USA and 1 lira in Italy, and the exchange rate in 1910 was 1 dollar for 1 lira.
Then along comes WWI and currencies go haywire–say now that a lira is only worth ten cents. But it still buys one IRC in Italy, which if shipped to the USA will then be exchangeable for a $1 stamp.
Ponzi thought that he could:
- Raise dollars in the USA
- Ship them to Italy
- Exchange them for Italian Lira–$1 buying 10 lira (let’s say)
- Buy 10 IRCs with the 10 Lira
- Ship the IRCs back to America
- Sell them to people who were going to buy them at the Post Office for (say) half price
- Make a fortune…
Great idea, except that the great financial journalist Clarence Barron calculated that, to support the scale of investments in Ponzi’s Scheme towards its end, there would need to be 160 million IRCs in circulation; but there were in reality only 27 thousand to be had.
An awareness that this might be the case was probably why Ponzi couldn’t convince the big end of town to invest–remember the old adage “If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is”? (something the “investors” in Madoff’s firm obviously forgot). So he set up a shop front, promising retail investors a 50 percent return on their money in 45 days.
Some people who didn’t know the adage took a punt, and within days Ponzi had his first funds–well before he worked out the mechanics of his arbitrage scheme. When 45 days elapsed and the first “investor” turned up expecting his $50 return on a $100 investment, Ponzi gave him money the only way he could–by handing over some of the money initially deposited by those early investors.
“Wow! Ponzi makes good on his promise: invest $100, and seven weeks later earn $50. Why if I left that $100 with him–or better still, left that AND added the $50 he’s just given me (minus say $25 for a good night out in celebration), then in another seven weeks I’ll have $187.50. And if I re-invest that…”
So went the word, as successful investors in Ponzi’s Scheme bragged to their friends about how much money the nice Mr Ponzi had made them. Ponzi never got the mechanics of the IRC arbitrage scheme worked out–and he continued to dream up schemes that, if they succeeded, would mean his apparent dividends were actually legitimately earned–and stuck with the practice of paying out principal deposited by later investors as interest to earlier ones.
Ultimately, he took in something close to US$15 million from about 40,000 people. Some of them who got out early walked away a lot wealthier, but at the end of the scheme, those still in it could only recoup $5 million–the other $10 million had gone to the early escapees, and to fund Ponzi’s temporarily luxurious lifestyle and minimal operating costs.
On some scales, Madoff’s is a more modest scheme than Ponzi’s–rather than promising 50% every 45 days (which works out at an annual rate of return of 2,680%), Madoff returned investors roughly 1% a month. As a result, the Big End of Town could persuade itself that the returns were initially the result of a successful investment strategy–and then later as the sheer volume grew, that they were the result of insider trading.
So Madoff attracted really wealthy investors: it appears that his firm “managed” over US$17 billion for less than 100 investors–though Madoff himself allegedly estimated his total losses at US$50 billion. And the scheme ran for almost half a century–far longer than Ponzi’s brief time in the financial sun (less than a year).
So is this the World’s Biggest Ponzi Scheme, as some headlines are trumpeting?
It’s certainly the biggest of what I call Type I Ponzi Schemes: direct, undisguised schemes in which principal is paid out as interest. But the biggest Ponzi Schemes by far are what I call Type II: here, instead of a direct “principal in, interest out” pump, we have “borrow money, buy assets with it, drive up the asset price, sell the assets, pay off the debt plus interest, and keep part of the asset price appreciation as profit”.
That, of course, describes margin lending on the stock market, and above all, leveraged speculation on house prices. It works a treat while asset prices continue to rise, but a fundamental precondition for this is that the level of debt has to rise even faster–since interest on the debt compounds it, and no real money is being made (by doing boring stuff like producing widgets and flogging them for a profit–the legitimate equivalent to Ponzi’s never-practised arbitrage scheme).
It falls over when the next entrant into the scheme looks at the level of debt required to enter, compares it to his/her income, says to self “there’s no way I could ever repay this out of my income” and decides not to play.
In reality, the world’s financial system has become one giant Type II Ponzi Scheme, and we are now reaping the whirlwind of that fiasco. While some made a fortune by getting out early, others are locked into the downward spiral as asset prices plummet for lack of buyers, excessive debt, and distressed selling to meet interest payments, and margin calls.
Madoff’s (alleged) Ponzi Scheme may be the most dramatic Ponzi Scheme, but in reality we’ve all been for a ride in Ponzi’s Magical Mystery Machine.
Part of the appeal of it all is the sheer fun of the boom. As Ponzi himself put it when interviewed on his deathbed in a Brazilian hospital for the destitute:
“Even if they never got anything for it, it was cheap at that price. Without malice aforethought I had given them the best show that was ever staged in their territory since the landing of the Pilgrims! It was easily worth fifteen million bucks to watch me put the thing over.”
Below are some early reports on Madoff’s Scheme. I’ll continue adding to them as they come in–though at some stage there will doubtless be a flood that I can’t keep pace with.
December 12: Yahoo Finance Tech Ticker: “I Knew Bernie Madoff Was Cheating; That’s Why I Invested with Him“. “So why did these smart and skeptical investors keep investing? They, like many Madoff investors, assumed Madoff was somehow illegally trading on information from his market-making business for their benefit. They didn’t consider the possibility that he was clean on that score but running a good old-fashioned Ponzi scheme.”
December 12: More on Madoff and the world’s biggest explicit Ponzi Scheme (in reality both the stock market and housing market bubbles were also Ponzi Schemes) The World’s Biggest Ever Heist. “Right now, there are a handful people whose world has suddenly been turned upside-down: who have, overnight, suddenly lost billions of dollars of dynastic wealth to a Wall Street con man. I’m sure that their names will appear sooner or later. But there really is no precedent that I can think of: when has one man ever managed to steal $50 billion dollars? If the $100 million Harry Winston heist in Paris was the “steal of the century”, what’s this?.”
December 11: Henry Blodget on Clusterstock: Bernie Madoff: The Indictment. “The criminal indictment of Bernie Madoff is embedded below. The good stuff starts at the bottom of page 2, when the FBI agent begins talking about his interview with two of Bernie’s senior employees. According to the WSJ, these two employees are Bernie’s sons. Also don’t miss the last paragraph, where the agent interviews Bernie himself.”
December 11th: Prominent Trader Accused of Defrauding Clients, NY Times. “On Wall Street, his name is legendary. With money he had made as a lifeguard on the beaches of Long Island, he built a trading powerhouse that had prospered for more than four decades. At age 70, he had become an influential spokesman for the traders who are the hidden gears of the marketplace. But on Thursday morning, this consummate trader, Bernard L. Madoff, was arrested at his Manhattan home by federal agents who accused him of running a multibillion-dollar fraud scheme — perhaps the largest in Wall Street’s history…”
“Mr. Madoff invited the two executives to his Manhattan apartment that evening. When they joined him there, he told them that his money-management business was “all just one big lie” and “basically, a giant Ponzi scheme.”
“The senior employees understood him to be saying that he had for years been paying returns to certain investors out of the cash received from other investors.”
Check the Madoff Client Database to see Madoff’s identified victims, complete with a map of there locations. Amazing!






December 13th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Steve,
I saw your comments in one of your lectures about the “Ponzi investing” factor, so I thought you’d pick up the Madoff story.
Madoff is apparently a former chairman of Nasdaq. Incredible.
December 13th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Looks like theres a local version of a ponzi scheme unravelling here.
http://business.theage.com.au/business/storms-illadvice-sends-innocents-to-the-bottom-20081212-6xm1.html
December 13th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Like a cockroach hotel, there never is only 1.
-GSM
December 13th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
I think that the boom in investing in assets by using debt was not a Ponzi scheme but more a rather large and expensive pyramid scheme.
The first buys ahouse for 100K, then on sells it to the next sucker for 150K. That owner then on sells that to the next sucker for 200K etc until the last one standing gets stuck with the cheque.
And I think you, inadvertently, raise a very good point about ethics in running a company and investing.
We have seen an appalling lack of ethics throughout this whole thing by our supposed leaders. Eddie Groves, god love him (the receivers have made a mistake!) to Morgan Stanley buying out Chicago’s parking meters and then increasing parking prices from 25c per hour to $1 per hour next year to $2 per hour in 2010 (and why the hell did the city council not think of this!!!!). This is how they use the bailout funds???!!!
Besides the nationalise of certain key stragic assets that I have suggested we really need to start implmenting changes that ensure that our companies become not only money making entities (which they need to) but also become good corporate CITIZENS! Yes that means donating money and time and goods amongst other things and consider the greater good of society i nmak,ing investment decisions. Companies such as the Body Shop are OK examples. Plus I have other ideas of course.
My nearly final thought is that I have absolutely no sympathy for those that have lost their money in these schemes. Most are too wrapped up in making easy money and a fool and his money deserve to be parted. I can’t believe the article in today’s paper that the Nigerian scheme is STILL raking in money. And people then turn around and complain that they have been ripped off and go catch those bad guys and not gee maybe I was a little greedy there (I really didn’t have a relative die in Africa, who’d a thunk it) and deserved to be burnt. Lesson learnt. Personal responsibility people. And now we see this again with the explosion in rents. Not satisfied with just the increase in asset prices and negative gearing they gotta be cash postive as well!! Greed!
And your post Steve, accidentally I suppose, relates to the article link that I posted here the last time I posted.
Ethics, something we all need to give some thought to. And from my point of view is why economics can not possibly explain everything rather than it is flawed in thought (and it undoubtedly is but even if correctly calculated it does not take into accoutn human behaviour) and will miss things coming. We need to be teaching some sort of hybrid between economics and psychology and ethics.
However, I do like Ponzi’s defence of putting on a good show and the money was worth that. And your joke about shirts lol.
And, finally it seems, the RBA and most others are cottoning onto the idea that no economy that is chugging along at 8% pa growth is going to cut interest rates and provide 1 trillion in stimulus funds (China). Do ya think. Idiots.
December 13th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Oh read through the Storm article and, again, it is always just the investment manager’s fault. No, it is the investors fault as well.
December 13th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
The Storm mess is not a Ponzi scheme in itself, but is a product of the sharemarket Ponzi scheme. Wait for everyone else with a leveraged investment to complain and start litigation. I think a few won over the foreign currency loans of the 80’s but not many and I expect the banks have much better disclaimers these days. It seems that every new financial possibility will encourage marketing as the secret to wealth.
December 14th, 2008 at 8:53 am
That ‘economic guru’ David Koch, in the ‘Sun herald’(Sydney)of Dec 14 says “…Our debt and consumption binge got us into this mess and now governments want to stimulate the original CULPRITS to pull us out of the crisis.” and more wisdom”…don’t focus on the short term stimulus,focus on the fundamental problems still in the debt markets.” Now, who has been a naughty boy and reading Steven keen’s Blog? hey? Well at least the news has reached the popular press (if not the reserve bank!).
December 14th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
The Mandoff Ponzi scheme will be very deflationary in its effects.
1. The actual loss of $50B has materialised overnight. People thought they had lots of money on Wednesday and found out on Thursday they had virtually nothing left.
2. Not all investors were individuals. Most would have been banks and other hedge funds. They now will have unexpectedly huge losses.
3. Will the balance sheet of those experiencing the losses be big enough? Probably not. Leading to flow on failures.
4. Investors in all hedge funds will be more nervous than they already are and more will pull out. Leading to further flow on failures.
5. Fear and risk aversion will rise further causing more losses.
6. Increased regulation of hedge funds etc, will lead to many pulling out. Less investing and borrowing.
7. All this leads to increased losses, risk aversion, job losses and shrinking GDP. Which feeds back in a loop.
DEFLATION DEFLATION DEFLATION!!!
December 14th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Kevin, no problems agreeing with you about the fundamental lack or complete absence of ‘ethics’ in so many aspects of the GFC. However when you suggested that “We need to be teaching some sort of hybrid between economics and psychology and ethics”, in respect to how you look at and make judgements in economics,
I have to suggest however that you are merely looking at the symptom that does not address of course the ultimate cause, which is not ‘measuring’ ethics, but indeed ‘instilling’ them, in some attempt to address the serious decline there of particularly over recent decades.
Just in the context of the broad subject we are discussing, the first point is to look at ‘the expectations of individuals’, not just in relation to what they ‘have’ or can ‘acquire’, but the expectations regarding ‘returns for their skills and labour’ and also in relation to the ‘application’ of those efforts and abilities. (e.g. doctor as opposed to high commission “wealth creation” salesman)
I refer you to my post early in November, where I posed the question (to which there was no response – largely I expect because bloggers are more interested in discussing the economic technicalities than the social, moral and ethical behaviours of people that underpin them) “when is the last time you met a clerk?”
There has been open discussion and acknowledgement for probably more than 20 years regarding the fact that people today want it all instantly, now or preferably yesterday. So much of advertising pushes this notion/philosophy together with of course “you deserve it”.
So who is going to want or take a job that involves developing worthwhile material skills and performance, advancing slowly, progressively and relatively ( according to your ‘real’ abilities), whilst living in a modest dwelling ( for a time), driving a reliable if totally unremarkable vehicle that gets you from A to B and costs you well less than $10,000. (as opposed to something that is inversely proportional to your real self-esteem and costs a bomb)
We have virtually lost one and a half to two generations where people (especially parents), focused on passing down all those qualities that underpin “ethics”, not to mention of course “genuine communication” skills and empathy.
So what are these “higher living standards” we hear so much about? What are their definitions of expectations? What and where are the current levels of “social capital?
And just on another point.
I coined the phrase “MelnKoshy” talking to Red Symons on his early morning ABC radio show in Victoria some time back. I was commenting on all the ‘hype, gloss, PC, touchy-feely, crap’ of which his show is a major promulgator.
So you can imagine that I find it so very ironic and just a bit rich, that he of all people should preach about ( in this instance against) “…. short-term stimulus”.
December 14th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Hi Al
I think we are more in agreement than you suppose. I am in agreement that ethics need to be instilled rather than measured (although measuring tells us whether they a particular set of ethics is being complied with) and, from my perspective, the cause of the current recession/depression has not been economics per se but the failure in individual and corporate ethics. Taking the Storm thing for example no ethical investment advisor will tell someone to risk and leverage everthing including their home on many investments let alone a single one and it is greed that allows one to be talked into such a proposition.
For instance there is a self regulated ban against trading by directors in the company’s shares that they are directors of a week or two before important news is revealed to the public but this trading goes on and some is bordering on insider trading and nothing gets done. Boards are not self regulating themslves.
Then I could move onto related party transactions, the CEO mentality and the lack of transparency in annual statements even though shareholders are supposedly owners and so on.
And I could go on but I’d rather not bore you all lol.
December 14th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Freedom of speech needs an overhaul. If an accountant worked for a company like that, and blew the whistle, they would destroy their career, and probably go to jail. In some circles, “unprofessional” seems to be a euphemism to “snitch”.
December 14th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
All agreed Kevin. I could see that you would accept the need to instil the sort of ethics that did exist in higher order not all that long ago ( and no everyone I am not trying to suggest that there haven’t always been unethical,unscrupulous and dishonest people)
but in relative terms, we really have hit a nadir.
I have been ’shaking my head’ for quite some years at the values, attitudes and conduct of the masses that have led to the self-centredness, greed and blind ignorance displayed by so many.
I have also been saying for as many years that the whole thing is going to go arse up in a big way based on so much ” hollowness and lack of substance” among people and the schemes they create to make an easy and fast buck, while masking the lack of substance they have as people.
‘Discovering Steve’ and your Peter Schifer’s etc. providing such vivid predictions for the lay person (with additional material for the experts) on the economic processes and the underpinning philosophies, really marries in so well with the human observations.
It is like watching a train wreck in slow motionwith with the locomotive and all the carriages representing different aspects contributing to the calamity.
All the talk about getting ‘the train back on the track’ save to mention ‘getting a head of steam’ and finally ‘heading in the right direction at the right pace’ will only address the symptoms.
It is the sociology where the real problems rest and we have yet to see some of the profound causes and effects that are headed our way in this quarter.
In the Great Depression so far as I can understand it, a very different set of attitudes and behaviours were in play.
I don’t think we can expect the high levels of individual selflessness exhibited in those times.
I’m just waiting for the continued rolling out off all the descriptors “we must all remain positive” has already had a solid thrashing, but we have a long way to go before we get to the classic ‘today speak’ “we just want to move on and put all this behind us”!
December 14th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
al49er
I’ve only recently started reading this blog, but have been well aware and in general agreement with Steve’s views for a long time.
I thought your post on clerks was a nice way of pointing out what I also believe to be a sociological problem at it’s heart, though I don’t want to sidetrack the economic focus of the discussions here.
Maybe it never really existed,(and perhaps through some bizarre twist it used to be possible to exist happily without it??) but it sure seems like common sense has taken a break in the last couple of decades.
I think we’re more than likely going to react to the GFC like a child who doesn’t know why they’ve been smacked than adults which means we’re going to keep on doing it.
December 15th, 2008 at 2:14 am
The worlds biggest ponzi scheme is the US treasury bond market.
I have just made a very simple comparison identifying the starting date for the bubble.
Starting date, Nov 1987, after Alan Greenspan took over the Federal reserve.
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=COP#chart2:symbol=cop;range=my;compare=^tnx;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined
What I am showing you here is a comparison between an oil company and 10 year treasuries.
It does not show on the chart. but the oil company were trending down from 10 dollars in 1980, to 5 dollars in 1986, yes with paul volcker at the federal reserve the treasury bond market were not in a bubble, but in a genuine bull market.
But only until Alan Greenspan took over, then they went seperate ways. Meaning, the treasury market were under compensated and in a bubble mode..However, it did not went really crazy crazy to until after 1998, at that point the oil company was trading at twice the level last seen in 1980 when inflation were very high, still the valuation of oil company, or the P/E much lower. After 1998, the bubble had another leg. Really insanity. Now in 2008, the oil company are trading very cheap i valuation, while the treasury bond market is very expensive.
For there to be balance the oil company needs to fall 90 %. And I don’t think that will happen.
Let me explain it again. 1980, treasuries yielding 15,4 %, oil company trading at 10 dollar. Nov. 1987, treasuries trading at 7,5 %, oil company trading at 5 dollar.
Then the trend disconnect. That’s when the bubble start. Keen have been claming the whole US stock market is a bubble on inflation adjusted terms, but I think the bubble is in the measurement of inflation itself, dating back to the day when Greenspan took over.
I also think the oil shares are at a bottom now, and treasuries around a top, because of this view, deflation becomes impossible. It’s no way it can happen, simply because the treasury bond bubble is to big, and the popping have to be inflationary.
The relationships I have used, should suggest, that if people were seeing that the emperor had no clothes they would demand more than 20 % interest to hold US government bonds.
December 15th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
As an engineer, for the last 25 years I have seen the world economy as a giant Ponzi scheme which had to eventually fail. I could never have picked the time because I have never been familiar with the minutia. Hovever the exponential rise particularly in debt accross foreign boundaries meant that a time would arise when the “growth” like a cancer would kill the host. On the end of Chris Martenson’s “hockey stick”.
Everybody is now speculating about the course of the demise. Using engineering methodology I would like to try to predict conditions at the bottom and plan for a stable and equitable future. But things move faster in engineering even a train wreck in my discipline is very slow.
These Ponzi type schemes, (another similar scheme was the Equity Funding affair which was computer assisted and the perpetrators predicted their own undoing), left a small number of “investors” to lick their wounds.
The global Ponzi scheme has crippled the world! Where is the bottom? As I see it a place where “money” is reliable and International Trade is trade and not false barter veiled by false money and credit, (as descibed by Steve). When this point is arrived at, a stable future is possible, (that is until some yo-yo in the future “reforms” it).
Until then, chaos, which I am sure many other people, those not known by Glen Stevens, can understand and could ameliorate if given the chance. But these people are not currently in charge!
December 15th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
- There should be a minimum period of say 1 year in which after the purchase of shares – they cannot be sold. This solves the speculation problem
- There should be a maximum period of say 5 years in which after the purchase all shares must be sold. This solves the bubble problem.
- Houses (homes) must be for living only. There must be no investment properties. If you buy a house it becomes your registered “home”. You can have only 1 home. i.e. no “investing” in properties shold be allowed. This way the housing bubble is solved.
- The tax offices around the world can surely spot companies which business is a pyramid or a Pozni scheme. These types of businesses should be illegal and the companies should be closed if their business is found to be such.
Implement all of the above and you will have the world a much better place for a good 90% of the population. The other 10%, that will not like it that way, are probably responsible for the current situation.
December 15th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
I don’t think any of those rules are needed.
I think what we need is a banking system that is not fractional reserve at all, based on gold, meaning if you borrow, you don’t create money, you actually borrow what is already in someones account. This system must be without central banks and “government fiat money”. However some non government electronic money based on true gold transactions is possible, allowing people to use their VISA, credit is also possible. And gold as money. And if you borrow, there must be gold to support it, since gold is limited, interest rates will go up sooner than under a fiat standard, and the system will be more self regulating. That means if you go berserk in China with your Visa card, later that same week, gold flows into china. I think this system will self regulate, and there will be booms and busts but on a magnitude people can manage. The trouble with our current system, is that central banks, through intervention have pushed things further and further out of balance, and politicians are addicted to the power of fiat money. I also like gold better, because in an era like our recent era, there will be deflation ,good deflation, that will benefit consumers, in our current system, the benefit instead goes to the parasites, that drain the system, when central banks create inflation, under an era where good deflation should be the norm.
December 15th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Let me add that it’s the stealing of this good deflation from the central banks, generating inflation, and massive debt levels, that are now threatening to cause bad deflation. If they did not fight good deflation to start with, but embraced it, and we were on a non fractional reserve system, we would never be where we are, in a dysfunctional service economy. But the good feeling of an artificial boom, the power of fiat money, the dumb public, socialist people in the central banking and economics profession, that also realize they don’t have any power, if they can’t create money like an alchemist , if money is gold on a non fractional reserve system are really to blame to. Maybe the illusion will burst, and the paper go back to it’s basic value of nothing. The gold standard, but without fractional reserve, closure of central banking, and government money is really the solution, with world as a world currency. I am sure this would dramatically reduce starvation and help the poor people around the world, however it would be devastating for the developed world.
December 15th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Steve,
the blog “Cassandra does Tokoyo” has a interesting take on Bernie Madoff extra-curricula activities. You can find it at
http://nihoncassandra.blogspot.com/2008/12/bernie-comes-out-of-closet.html
One of the respondents of the blog suggest the following:
“I think Ponzi is passe – now we have the Madoff Scheme. Call it Madoff Scheme!”
He may just have something there!
December 15th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Not enough weight being given to the ’sociology’ in all of this.
Many of the economic proposition put forward have ‘mechanical’/'theoretical’ merit but without regulation where people are made truely accountable for their actions you are urinating into a stiff breeze.
By the way where does Kevin’s or is it Penny’s
“fart regulation & trading ” fit in all of this?
There is the new Ponzi/Madoff Scheme – and fair dinkum that really has to top the
“who would have believed it stakes”
December 15th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
The insanity didn’t stop at sub-prime.
Mortgage crisis that’s far from over, with a second wave of expected defaults on the way that could deepen the bottom of the U.S. recession.
See:
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/the-mortgage-meltdown/
December 15th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
iconoclast – subprime is but the tip of the iceberg. Its the Option/ARM loans that will sink the titanic when they re-set.
Check out ‘Dr Housing Bubble’s’ blog (bit of googling) for a look at the Californian housing bubble.
There’s a few histrionics (as you could forgive in a state falling off a cliff) but his analysis is pretty good (imho). Lots of good data and charts presented.
December 15th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Dicko, yes, Dr Housing Bubble’s blog is on my list of regular viewing. I also reference http://mrmortgage.ml-implode.com/
The 60 minutes U.S. piece, shown yesterday, shows again another perspective of madness behind it all, especially the part with the parties and the paparazzis’ that wer hired to further boost the ego of the delusional purchaser.
December 16th, 2008 at 3:25 am
re: By the way where does Kevin’s or is it Penny’s
“fart regulation & trading ” fit in all of this?
There is the new Ponzi/Madoff Scheme – and fair dinkum that really has to top the
“who would have believed it stakes”
al49′er and et el. interested in the climate change debate, we may still have our day toppling this anthropogenic global warming/climate change fiasco.
The following US senate minority report is just out report titled:
U. S. Senate Minority Report: More Than 650 International Scientists Dissent Over
Man-Made Global Warming Claims
Scientists Continue to Debunk “Consensus” in 2008:
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=37283205-c4eb-4523-b1d3-c6e8faf14e84&CFID=53229530&CFTOKEN=47452955
The introduction begins with:
Over 650 dissenting scientists from around the globe challenged man-made global
warming claims made by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
(IPCC) and former Vice President Al Gore. This new 231-page U.S. Senate Minority
Report report — updated from 2007’s groundbreaking report of over 400 scientists who
voiced skepticism about the so-called global warming “consensus” — features the
skeptical voices of over 650 prominent international scientists, including many current
and former UN IPCC scientists, who have now turned against the UN IPCC. This
updated report includes an additional 250 (and growing) scientists and climate researchers since the initial release in December 2007. The over 650 dissenting scientists are more than 12 times the number of UN scientists (52) who authored the media-hyped IPCC 2007 Summary for Policymakers.
The chorus of skeptical scientific voices grow louder in 2008 as a steady stream of peerreviewed studies, analyses, real world data and inconvenient developments challenged the UN and former Vice President Al Gore’s claims that the “science is settled” and there is a “consensus.” On a range of issues, 2008 proved to be challenging for the promoters of man-made climate fears. Promoters of anthropogenic warming fears endured the following: Global temperatures failing to warm; Peer-reviwed studies predicting a continued lack of warming; a failed attempt to revive the discredited “Hockey Stick”; inconvenient developments and studies regarding CO2; the Sun; Clouds; Antarctica; the Arctic; Greenland; Mount Kilimanjaro; Hurricanes; Extreme Storms; Floods; Ocean Acidification; Polar Bears; lack of atmosphieric dust; the failure of oceans to warm and rise as predicted.
And it goes on…
Let’s see what Kev, Penny and Ross will make of this.
650 vs 52, well now now, who actually has the consensus hey!
December 16th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Despite all the bad news. Whenever I talk about the economy I am called a “doom and gloomer” and people either don’t want to hear or they switch off.
I have been suggesting to some of my clients to sell property for 2 or 3 years now. They just wouldn’t listen!
A few rang me up in October and said “you were right”. “What should we do?” I said “sell some assets and reduce debt. It’s not too late yet.”
One client asked me to help. Together we listed 3 of their properties and I suggested they sell two more as well. These are very educated and savvy people who have been warned repeatedly and had the theory explained to them many times. They won’t listen!!!
I am beginning to give up on Australians. It’s too hard to get the message out. People really want to continue to believe the lies and put their head in the sand.
Based on this denial alone, I think Australia is heading for 15 to 20% (reported) unemployment and an unprecedented disruption of our society and way of life.
As the Specials sang “This is the dawning of a new era, era era era”.
December 16th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Thank you “iconoclast” that’s the ‘double’ taken care of (economic meltdown & anthropogenic climate change fraud).
The third leg for my trifecta is “Lost Communication” or ‘How PC and ‘positive’ babble speak have killed meaningful conversation’ and the sequel ‘Kids Can’t Talk’.
No doubt amongst the bloggers to this site there will be serious Climate Change devotees, but I think it would be interesting to see the correlation that might exist with the people who have felt the GFC was inevitable and Climate Change Scepticism.
Given that the impact on the ‘real economy’ and subsequent job losses have yet to ramp up, I think Kev, Penny and yes of course not to forget dear old Ross’s greenhouse gases targets and carbon trading, might just be in for some shock therapy.
It will be interesting to see the reaction of the Bobby Brown cheer squad (can’t think of the name of his fellow Tassie high profile Green on hand to ‘nod in the background’ and look sour faced that the “levels/targets aren’t high enough”)
It is all quite sad & tragic – but boy it’s fascinating !
And “bullturnedbear”, don’t be coy about your predictions, go out and get your self an
“I Told You So” ‘T’ shirt ( if Steve hasn’t already patented it ) and walk proud.
The “head in the sand “of these “educated savvy the people” is just another symptom of the third line of my trifecta – see above. Upfront, cocky and draped in bling, but really quite dumb when you scratch beneath the surface.
December 16th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Hi Al,
If you thought I was saying “I told you so”. I am sorry for that. I didn’t mean that.
I was hoping that my friends and loved ones could avoid the train wreck.
I raised the point here, more to say not only is the MSM in denial. But people I talk to are is mass denial as well.
It frustrates me!!
December 16th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
@iconoclast – what are your views on this rejoinder to the link you posted re climate change.
http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/11/inhofe-morano-recycles-long-debunked-denier-talking-points-will-the-media-be-fooled-again/
December 16th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Also Al,
I didn’t foresee the Credit Crunch. I wish I did. I read other people’s view and adopted them. Only much later did I put all the pieces together.
5 years ago I thought “good debt” was smart. I had no idea how big the big picture was.
3 years ago I just thought my clients had too much debt and they would be better off if they sold some things to have less stress in their life. It didn’t think their properties would go down in value.
My eyes were opened to a degree when I read Clive Hamilton’s Book Affluensa in late 2005. I already felt that the excess consumption was not right. The waste and competition I saw was making me angry. Clive’s book helped me put it into perspective. At the time though, I thought the greed and excess consumption would go on for a lot longer. I knew it was unsustainable, I didn’t think in time frames.
It was also in 2005/06 that I discovered Peak Oil theory. Wrongly from this I thought we were heading for a large recession because the cost of oil would rise due to falling supply. This made me uneasy and I began a process of selling real estate assets to prepare for the economic winter. This theory confirmed my inner feelings that things were not quite right, but I didn’t know why. So I latched on to it.
It was later still that I realised that the commodities bubble was due to the massive growth in the money supply. That’s when the penny dropped for me. It was late 2007 when I saw some numbers on debt levels in a historical sense that I began to panic.
At the same time someone put me onto Bob Prechter and I read his theories on Socionomics. Very cookey but very interesting.
I’m no guru!!! Just a reader of other people’s work.
My fear is that what I am reading and “latching onto” at the moment is just a fad and that too will turn out to be unfounded. Time will tell.
December 16th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
“bullturnedbear” like you I certainly don’t claim to be a “guru” in this matter (particularly the technical explanation) indeed it is a matter of listening, reading, and learning then as you say “putting all pieces together”
I came to my conclusions through an interest in looking at people and their behaviours (sociology if you like).
It is ‘finding’ people like Steve Keen with the knowledge and ability to connect all bits that added the technical economic dimension to the perspective from which I was viewing the world.
Although it is “not the done thing” or polite to say, ‘I told you so’, many of the people being dealt with in this matter “just don’t get it”, it is the only language that will wake them up to the new reality and hopefully give them the opportunity to create a new pathway – one that hopefully will be built on substance, not only financial but also personal.
And just finally, what is happening now and what you have been progressively reading and learning about, is the absolute antithesis of “just a fad”.
That is the whole point my dear fellow, what Steve and his ilk have been showing you, me and many others, is the fact that the world’s financial system has evolved through greed , schemes and cons, replacing talent, hard work and thriftiness to become a ‘house of cards’, a train wreck, there are many metaphors.
But it ain’t no fad.
December 16th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
nanks,
as I have stated in previous discussions on this matter. There is evidence of climate change, and yes that is agreed. What I am skeptical of is the suggestion that anthropogenic CO2 emissions are it’s cause.
Geological history tells us that the climate has been forever changing, there is nothing new in that.
The geological evidence does not support what has been put forward as the cause of climate change
Human activity, rampant population growth, incessant compounded economic growth all together have destroyed our planets environment more than anthropogenic CO2 emissions.
Correlation is not causation, we may want to once again seriously think about why the planets environment is being destroyed.
The article also questions the credibility of the scientific community that are skeptical.
It is equally fair to rightly put the question as to what are the qualifications of the Chairman, Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Dr. Pachauri?
What relevant scientific insight, pray tell, does he bring to such a scientific forum?
Being a former railway engineer with no qualifications in climate science is, well, self-evident.
One must also not forget that he was one of 100 signatories to Al Gore’s letter. Those signatories, also included two (2) gynecologists, a hotel manager, two (2) landscape architects and (one) 1 climate scientist.
December 17th, 2008 at 1:55 am
bullturnedbear
I know what you mean, I have been bearish on property for some time. But I think there is a time and a place for it. I think with all the intervention we see now, will be an upwards trend in property through the inflationary policies that will be followed by the federal reserve. I think the ECB, that are playing “good guy” now, are actually helping the fed, through strengthening the Euro. That makes the job of the FED easier. It’s enough if the US inflate. All the other countries don’t have to follow.¨I think I can see where this going: Probably into a new kind of carry trade, with renewed growth in emerging markets, stagflation of the mild kind in devevnloped, similar to Japan in the 1999-2007 period, a flattening of nominal property prices, and a decline in real terms over many years. I think it depends on hard the federal reserve push quantitative easing.
December 18th, 2008 at 4:09 am
Here is my estimate of what is happening.
10 year bonds are yielding 2 %. The dollar is weakening and is down at around the same levels it was when japan intervened in 1994 (and started the carry trade that drove the FTSE and Dow jones from 1994). 87 is the dollar to the Yen, very weak, and 1,41 towards the Euro.
This means three things: The commodity play are coming back, Japan will intervene soon, and probably bring back the liquidity and weaken the Yen and suddenly we are in a new round of competitive devaluation and madness, and of course, no deflation. However, I am not sure there will be a further build up of debt for real estate and local things. Maybe the developed world will behave as Japan did, and direct their cheap money towards emerging markets, creating a sort of stagflation where interest rates are very low at the same time inflation is significant. A mix of deflation in living standards and no interest rates, or a loss or buying power that are not compensated for just like Japan have experienced in their period from 2001 when inflation have been as high as in any western country, but with 0 % interest rate.
December 18th, 2008 at 6:45 am
Hi PS,
How do you factor the new level of risk aversion, business failures and unemployment into your assessment?
December 18th, 2008 at 8:53 am
All the negative news are weakening the dollar after the fed are starting to manipulate treasuries, and the yen have outperformed the dollar all through this crisis.
The unwinding of positions that have forced people to buy dollars seems to be over, and the dollar have lost half it’s gains against a weighted basket of currencies since the bottom earlier this year. Today it suffered it’s biggest one day drop against the Euro in 10 years, and fell to a 13 year low against the Japanese yen. I think the things you mention about the US economy weakens the dollar and that any recovery will happen from a weak dollar most likely giving some sort of inflationary boom. I can’t see any other way for the US to have a boom than a weak dollar boom.
A lot of the dotcom bubble were caused by Japan intervening against a weak dollar from 1994-1995, and the dollar are now going to levels that could cause the bank of japan to engage in their own quantitative easing. That could put more liquidity into the markets. That will flow into the things that was performing well like emerging markets.
The ECB trichet taking a hawkish stance on the Euro by making a negative statement about quantitative easing possibly weakening the integrity of the currency have also weakened the dollar. The Germans are very negative on helping the other Euro area countries, as it is not their debt bubble. Germany also have their memories of the hyperinflation, while the US remember the depression, these differences are playing a role in the different policies of the ECB and the FED.
People seems to be looking at the fundamentals of the US economy again as the panic have went into the background a little. The US is in a mess and the best things they have are good software, service jobs and disturbingly enough some very flawed automakers. The markets are much more stable now. The Ted spread is down a lot. Only 1,5 % now. The panic that caused people wanting to hold dollars seems to be over, and people are going back to the old positions. The talk about a treasury bubble from Merril Lynch economist David Rosenberg that called the housing bubble spot on probably is right in the sense that the reason people are buying the longer dated treasuries now is not longer as much out of fear
but rather as a speculative position where they use these longer dated securities as an instrument of greater leverage, trying to gain from the treasuries targeting the longer dated treasury bonds with quantitative easing. That’s also why inflation linked securities such as TIPS have started to gain, with precious metals, as these things have disconnected from their usual relationship with longer dated treasuries.
December 18th, 2008 at 9:37 am
ECB is the good cop Fed is the bad cop. A weaker dollar spurs commodity speculation, speculation on emerging economies, increases demand for raw materials through the emerging economies and all the activities inside an economic boom that could take shape as an internal infrastructure spending binge that have some of the same effects of fighting a war (inflation), but without the massive casualties, except for prudent savers of course.
December 18th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
HI PS,
The US Dollar will complete its correction soon and begin the next leg of rally. The repatriation of US investments has a very long way to go yet. The US has sent trillions of dollars offshore. It’s all too risky now, so it will continue to come home. Emerging economies will continue to get smashed as capital flows out. Risk aversion and liquidation are still the dominant factors for a long while yet. I think you are calling it over way too soon Prudent.
Just as the US economy is in trouble, so is the rest of the World. Deflation in China will be ruthless as well.
The VIX is falling and investors are being lulled back into markets. Soon they will get smashed and the markets will find new lows again. Maybe in Feb or March. The share markets have been range bound since Oct. The longer the range holds the more people get sucked in. I still say short the rallies. That’s the best option in a bear market.
I read that US treasury bulls are now at 99%. That bubble is very much due for a correction. Will Quantitative Easing actually occur and prop that market up longer or is it just talk at this stage? We will see very soon I bet. I don’t think a turn in treasuries will signal inflation though. It will just be a temporary correction along the road to deeper deflation. I say deeper because price deflation has now begun in Europe and the US. Debt deflation has been going on for at least a year now.
December 18th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
I think the prediction of Warren Buffet that the dollar will just get weaker and weaker against other currencies such as the Canadian dollar are true. There is no fundamental reasons on the side of the dollar other than temporary fear and short covering. There is not a single reason for the dollar to be strong. For the last 2 months the yen have outperformed the dollar, that are actually going parabolic towards the yen, and the yen seems to be taking over the safe haven status together with the metals.
Another thing. If you wait for things to get nice. Then 1. the dollar will be back at it’s very low levels, and the stock markets will be back up. Unless you buy when things are rough there is no way to profit from this mess.
If you have looked at the portfolio of Ben Bernanke from years back you will see its geared 100 % towards a weaker dollar and inflation. the guy don’t even trust US goverment bonds, but in canada goverment bonds, US large cap, tobacco stocks, chinese shares and TIPS he trust. The dollar is moving towards the Yen as it did in 1976 when jimmy carter took over. I think all the energy, and alternative energy plays of Warren Buffet, the only thing he have bought are related to energy , or distressed banking stock, tells a lot about the future.
I don’t believe in deflation in China. The moves
in the stock markets globally lately mirrors 1974. They have low debt levels and a very high savings rate in China. There have not been deflation in the US for a year. There have been panic and terror in the markets causing liquidity to freeze up, and moving inflation down since energy prices peaked, but it’s premature to talk about deflation. It’s still just a theory. The energy reserves in the world are still going down at 7 % each year, compound that and there is not even a small and remote possibility that deflation can last for a longer period of time.
December 19th, 2008 at 2:34 am
Let me add that I think that someone who don’t find opportunities in todays investing environment will have a hard time ever finding opportunities, as this is the best environment to invest in that I have ever seen.
I am investing in things related to energy and emerging markets. It’s important to not look at charts like these: http://www.thedigeratilife.com/images/HongKongHangSeng.jpg
A chart like this tells nothing about an underlying company on the Hang Seng index. Nothing. I think the development in the shanghai index now is similar to the little blip in 1973 on the hang seng. You can have companies on the hang seng that will be 10-50 times higher in 10 years from now. I think the worst performers will be stable paper asset companies. The best companies will be growth companies, and things related to hard assets providing an inflationary hedge. I think there is a new energy wave coming. Peak oil will force it upon us.
December 19th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Hi Prudent,
When I talk deflation I don’t think for a second that it will go on forever. After Deflation will come inflation. The question is how long will the deflation last and how deep will it be.
If you look at the graphs for some commodities from 1925 to 1935. Commodities fell into 1932 and then bounced out of 1932. Even though the depression went on much longer. I agree there will be massive opportunities to come. The key is when to pull the trigger. My opinion is that, now is too early.
Careful of using Buffet as a guide. He has always been a bull market investor (buy the dips). Also he was buying financials in August and Sept. If we were in a bull market. It would be smarter to track Buffet. This is most likely a multi-year bear market.
December 19th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Bullturnedbear / al49er
I enjoyed your brief discussion about how you became aware of the types of issues that Steve and readers cover on this blog.
I started getting into all of this when the credit crunch started in July last year. Later I was based in Washington DC for a couple of months in March / April and read widely about the threats to the world financial system. Since then I’ve been reading non-stop — a process that I’ve found to be extremely confronting and somewhat alienating (no, no one wants to hear).
After all of my reading, I’m becoming increasingly convinced of the following points. I know that much of this is dismissed as conspiracy theories. But the voices that dismiss such data are very similar to those that dismissed Steve’s (and others’) writings since 2006… no attempt to look at the issues raised, just ridicule and knee-jerk disdain.
– The current financial crisis was intentionally created by the people who own the banks (after they created the hyper-boom of the last 15 years).
– Governments are controlled by private banks which own the central banks (particularly the Federal Reserve and Bank of England). I don’t believe for a second that the US Treasury or the Fed is trying to fix this crisis for the benefit of a healthy economy. The harder the crash, the cheaper the assets at the end of this cycle. The insiders who knew with complete certainty that this crash was coming are already much richer than they were in mid-07, certainly in relative terms. There has also been an associated concentration of power towards the insiders, which has picked up in earnest as they fleece the public purse.
– Western governments are extremely corrupt, particularly the US and the UK (of course, almost all the non-western ones are too but this is widely accepted).
– Share markets are almost 100% manipulated right now. Only a fool would bet against the house (one that controls the speed of the roulette table, marks the cards and changes the rules of the game with impunity).
– No one knows what the impact of the estimated $1.4 quadrillion of derivatives will be in this crisis. (This is actually the interesting bit right now as potentially the unintended consequences of exotic derivatives may have pushed this crisis beyond the vanilla boom/bust creations of previous generations.)
– No one is a “guru” anymore. The age of the expert is over as evidenced by the incredible divisions between those comment on this crisis. Half of those who had the foresight and bravery to predict this crisis (i.e. the ones worth listening to) think there will be deflation and the other half think there will be hyper-inflation in the medium- to long-term. We have entered a period of massive discontinuities in which the patterns of the past do not predict the future (yes, Black Swan and all that). To some extent the less indoctrination that a person has been exposed to via specialist education and/or professional expertise, the more open they can be to likelihood of “impossible” events like prime Syndey real estate dropping 20%, AU interest rates falling by 3% in late 2008, sub $40 oil after reaching $147 only 5 months ago, or the US defaulting on it loans and the USD losing reserve currency status. It is up to each of us to take responsibility to make up our own minds and act accordingly.
For anyone interested, I’ve reached these conclusions based on the following:
http://londonbanker.blogspot.com/
http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/authors/2-Karl-Denninger/P4.html
http://solari.com/
http://www.jsmineset.com/
http://archive.arlingtoninstitute.org/library/ArlingtonInstituteAddressTranscript_eng.pdf
(also see David Martin’s presentation in late Sept 08)
… and of course Steve’s blog. I don’t agree with all of what is contained in those blogs (some of it is garbage but not much).
Evan
December 19th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Forgot to add:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/
… which provides an excellent daily email.
December 19th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
I just don’t buy the idea that we are in “1929″.
As this graph show, 1929 was in 2000.
http://www.investmenttools.com/images/wfut/metals/dow_gold.gif
Now we are just in a correction phase of a longer inflationary period, like the seventies, or period between 1932-1950. Warren Buffet have mentioned 1937-1938 when the dow went down 50 %. It just looks as we are in 1929 when looking at things in nominal terms, but in nominal terms the extreme drop in the value of money don’t show. Emerging markets ,commodities, all the hot stuff in this boom have been hallmarks of inflationary periods like the seventies, there was no such things in the 1920-s- however the deflation talk now, very much reminds me of 1998-1999, and in 2003, both turned out to be completely wrong, and it was even the same people then, as it is now that are touting deflation. The federal reserve will try to create negative real interest rates, that’s really the only way they can have any boom.
December 20th, 2008 at 10:44 am
A thing that is quite interesting is the super bubble theory of George Soros, and how similar it is to Keen’s debt deflation theory, in Soros view that the housing mess represented the cross over point or end of a super bubble, at least for the UK, US and Australia in terms of maxed out credit.
Soros think’s the Countercyclical policies of the US this time around is difficult due to a falling status of the dollar and raise the possibility of runaway inflation. He think’s the US this time are like in a position like emerging economies, in past crisis. It’s interesting that he seems to see the reserve currency status of the US as an interconnected part of the long term debt bubble, and that might be why his portfolio is so geared towards inflation.
December 20th, 2008 at 11:23 am
One of the features of a Ponzi scheme is that the “profits” appear on paper but are only covered by and paid from new “invesments”. In other words there are no genuine profits.
This could also be descibing the situation where a debtor needs to borrow to pay the interest on a loan. In this way banks have been knowingly investing in many “micro” Ponzi schemes.
Now if we look at a “macro” situation; banks and institutions of nation states which provide credit to banks of a nation state which is running continuous Current Account Deficits and therefore can only pay all or part of the interest payments from borrowings, are in effect also contributing to a Ponzi Scheme.
In this is the case Australia is running a Ponzi Scheme 100 times bigger than Madoff and the US is running a Ponzi Scheme 10 bigger than Australia. Which is the world biggest Ponzi scheme?
December 21st, 2008 at 2:06 am
Is there any proof, outside of admissions by Madoff and rife media speculation, that Madoff’s hedge fund was in fact a pyramid scheme? I find it difficult to believe that Madoff could have operated a classic Ponzi Scheme for such a long time without being caught. Possible – yes, but likely? Especially since it involves banks such as HSBC and Satander (with their checks and balances)? not to me it isn’t – the system is broken sure, but let’s take a minute to think about this before we accept an admission as fact. Rarely if ever have I heard of a confession for a financial crime. One must ask what his real incentive is for making such a declaration, especially at this time – there seems to be more to this story…
It’s no secret that the derivatives market is rife with toxic transactions and that more likely than not a high number of hedge funds will be going under in the short to medium term. As far as I am aware, the investors that entrusted their capital with these funds will not be entitled to redress – unless the funds are convicted of a illegal activities. Is it not possible that Madoff, having already lost a substantial amount in this “crisis” and seeing the impending collapse of his firm, decided to bail his faithful investors out by admitting to a crime he didn’t openly commit? I have no doubt that Madoff is extremely suspect and that he has engaged in criminal activity, but admitting to a Ponzi Scheme and having everyone buy it seems to be too convenient an escape.
Whatever the case may be, if we are truly concerned with justice and with resolving this gargantuan financial mess then we must seek proof and the truth to the fullest of our abilities. Deception is the criminal’s ultimate tool and we simply cannot trust the word of those who we suspect or know to have been deceivers – we need proof.
December 21st, 2008 at 7:36 am
Hi Brightspark,
I think the Giant Ponzi scheme idea is interesting. Steve has been referring to Ponzi for a long time. A strong piece of supporting evidence is the exponential nature of the rise in debt levels.
I have also seen it many times at the individual level and particularly for small to medium sized business operators. It has been hidden by rising house and assets prices. Now the music has stopped and many will not be able to find a seat. The banks have ignored it because they wanted to grow their revenue and meet their targets.
December 21st, 2008 at 7:43 am
Very good call Butterchops.
Even if from an administrative point of view it looks like a Ponzi scheme now. He would have used the capital to try to trade for higher than the reported profits. No doubt in some years he would have earned much more than he reported. In other years like 2008. He must have made some very bad bets.
December 21st, 2008 at 12:01 pm
The trouble now will be the new reality of quantitative easing.
So far, the US have already started, that gives a weak dollar, strong YEN and strong franc. The next thing to happen will be that these countries as well will embark on the same policies. Probably Japan first. History have shown (from Japan), that consumers do not take the 0 % bait. However, traders, speculators and such take these baits, and create self reinforcing bubbles through the George Soros concept of reflexivity. I have tracked currency movements, and checked out pretty careful the various currencies.
Right now we are at a situation where the relationship between the traditional “strong currencies, that is Yen and franc” stand at around their levels from bottoms around 1998 and 2002-2003. With the stock indexes not dramatically low, but low enough for “carry traders” to find things that will give a positive carry, I think the moment for a new liquidity driven bubble boom, as seems to be the rule with quantitative easing (from my research it’s the Bank of Japan, not the federal reserve that have caused the “Greespan bubbles”), as it is liquidity from the 0,1 % interest rates, and not the low interest rates in the US in the 90-s and 2000-s that have caused the bubbles in the stock markets to occur.
December 21st, 2008 at 12:09 pm
The big trouble with quantitative easing, is that the fed have no way of controlling where the money goes, unless they want to do so, but right now that don’t seems to be a concern they have, they are happy just to bloat the banks with reserves they find some sucker for. We have had the Bank of Japan systematically blowing bubbles through the 1990-2000s , but now it’s a risk that a lot of central banks will embark on this “jetfuel” policy (that don’t increase domestic borrowing, but rather fuel bubble after bubble. It’s only a matter of time before this will fuel trades that will start to lift the markets higher and higher. I remember back in 2003, suddenly it was just as if a switch that had been turned on. It’s going to be like that. The theorists talk about sluggish recovery, so on, but they have no idea how powerful this jetfuel is.