Yesterday the RBA (Australia’s Central Bank) cut its reserve rate by three quarters of a percent, to 5.25 percent. This is the third cut in 3 months, bringing the cumulative reduction since September to 2 percent
This is a far cry from the RBA’s expectations in 2007, that in 2008 it would be raising rates to constrain a booming economy and bring inflation back down to its target range.
Inflation is still above its target, but clearly that’s a bulls eye the RBA is no longer aiming for. What on earth went wrong with the RBA’s predictions for 2008?
The RBA’s mistake was to follow conventional economic theory—known as “neoclassical economics”. This theory completely ignores private debt, in the belief that private debt reflects rational decision-making and will therefore always be at a “Goldilocks” level—“just right”.
The things that go wrong, according to this theory, are the product of government decisions—where the discipline of the market can’t exist. The Reserve was openly critical of government policy in the previous years, which it regarded as too inflationary. This is why it put interest rates up last November, during the Australian election campaign—an unprecedented move.
It’s also why the Rudd Government made every noise it could about being fiscally responsible earlier this year, to signal to the RBA that there was no further need to raise interest rates.
The RBA did increase rates twice more of course—in February and March of this year. Then just six months later, it changed tack—cutting rates first of all tentatively, and then decisively.
In doing this it is now going directly against the theory that once guided it—because that theory is clearly wrong. Above all else, it is now obvious that private debt levels aren’t the result of rational decision-making, but the product of an irrational exuberance that asset prices would always increase.
In other words, it wasn’t “just right Goldilocks” taking out the debt, but Daddy Bear, under the influence of naïve theories about the economy that were every bit as intoxicating as bad beer. Now with falling share prices everywhere, and house prices tumbling almost everywhere (even in Australia on the latest Australian Bureau of Statistics figures), the global economy is being driven south by an enormous debt hangover.
The RBA is being forced to follow, and it deserves some kudos for so rapidly turning around from administering the wrong medicine to at least trying to reduce the pain of the hangover. But there is much further to go. Each 1 percent reduction by the RBA reduces the interest payment burden on the economy by $18 billion a year—if the cut is passed on. But as the Bear family goes from irresponsibly bingeing on the credit card, to trying to live within its means and reduce debt, spending in the economy dives by far more.
In the USA, private debt rose by US$4.5 trillion in 2007. That figure is rapidly spiralling down towards zero now, and with it consumer spending is collapsing—as General Motors confirmed on Monday when it reported a 45 percent fall in sales. Sales by all auto manufacturers were severely down, with sales in October being 32 percent lower than a year ago.
Australia is not quite so debt-dependent, but even here increased debt accounted for A$260 billion of spending last year, compared to our GDP of A$1.08 trillion. As we stabilise debt, the economy itself will destabilise. The RBA, and the Government, are doing all they can to tip the balance back the other way, but we should never have got into this position in the first place. A generation of bankers, and of economists, have a lot to answer for.






November 5th, 2008 at 8:17 am
Steve, Just wondering whether anyone from Rudd’s office or any bureaucrats have sought your views and recommendations since the “credit crisis” began?
Also, I have crunched the numbers on the movement in our house prices relative to the US’s at the same stage of the housing cycle (6 months post peak). Our prices are falling at a faster rate! The full paper is at:
http://www.geocities.com/homes4aussies/h4a081104.pdf
(Personally, I think the rapid and marked change in RBA tack had a lot to do with advance readings on house prices and growing default rates.)
Warm regards,
Brett
November 5th, 2008 at 8:55 am
Hi,
Firstly, thanks for commentary which passes the common sense test about private debt which is that clearly it can’t last forever.
As for a question; doesn’t the reduction in interest rates just allow an even greater binge on debt? Surely keeping it higher would force people to ‘live within their means’ at an earlier stage?
November 5th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Steve, you got me confused. Why do you welcome the rate cut? My understanding is that when rates are lower people are discouraged to save and encouraged to borrow, thus an increase of the debt level is to be expected – an end result contrary to your views that the credit bubble should be deflated.
IMHO we are facing a period of higher inflation – the exchange rate is down, the interest rate is going down too and we have a government happy to appear “decisive” with expensive rescue packages. A higher inflation would benefit those “working families” in debt (provided that they keep their job to service it). The uncertainty of the high inflation would keep the rise of the house prices low, thus reducing the housing bubble. Those who will lose out will be the people with deposits – mostly self funded retirees, but they do not vote labor anyway.
November 5th, 2008 at 11:07 am
Thanks Steve. For your intelligent insights. It makes a change from the misinformation everywhere!
keep it up!
Thanks
Rob Sheridan
November 5th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Steve,
I have been following your blog for best part of two years now. And as someone who works in the finance industry, it has been very refreshing to see an alternate academic oppinion to the mainstream populast ”neo-classical thinking”, which has proven itself to be a long way short of the mark. How can any self described “science” miss a once in a century event and serious questions not be asked about the validity of its theoretical foundations…
I would however like to make a few observations about the macro cashflow circumstances of Australias economic position;
(1) Positive Effects: Fiscal stimulus ($10bn) and Monetary stimulus (2% x 1.8tn = $36bn). Importantly the latter has two major slippage effects; (i) assumption that banks pass on the entire rate decrease and (ii) many borrowers have fixed rates so do not benefit from rate decreases. So although the maximum theoretical positive stimulus effect from Fiscal and Monetary policy changes to date is $46bn, in reality it will be something substantially less than this
(2) Negative Effects: 2007 contribution of debt (increased borrowing) to GDP was approx $250bn. If aggregate consumer behavior does in fact change as it appears to be, with main street bunkering down, then how much of this borrowing will be repeated in next couple of years. Even a modest drop in borrowing behavior, whether for demand side or supply side reasons, will very quickly erode any postive stimulus effects
Further monetary observations – It has been argued by some commentators that since Australias interest rates were raised materially higher than some other western nations, then we have more room for rate cuts. With current official rate at 5.25%, it could be argued that rates could be dropped a full 5% before we reached Japan/US levels. Well that results in a maximum of approx $100bn benefit per annum (ie- 5% x 1.8tn), but is really lower than this due to slippage on way to consumers pocket.
Further fiscal observations – it has just been annouced today that the Federal Govt will take a hit of $40bn to its financial position. This along with reduced state tax receipts (eg- lower stamp duties) will inhibit the governments position to pump prime the economy as much as may be necessary.
It is not that difficult to see how the negative effects could easily outweigh any positive stimulus. A reduction of peoples borrowing by half would mean a $130bn hit to the economy compared to 2007. That would require interest rates to go to zero and further fiscal stimulus to avoid any negative economic effect. So it seems the key really lies in how quickly and to what extent consumers behavior changes regarding accumulation of debt. A snap change in mindset, seeing debt accumulation heading towards zero has the potential for massive aggregate effects on GDP. God forbid Australians become “Net Savers”
Simply put we are in for a period in which there will be less funds chasing commodities and assets, which must have a consequence on volume of economic activity, prices or some combination of both.
Regards
Mike
November 5th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
All good points Steve. The “I told you so” is quite clear. As well, good call on the rate cut “surprise”.
With 25% approx of last years GDP attributed to debt fuelled spending in Australia, to what level are you expecting this to decline in 2008 and 2009?
Further, with 75% approx of that 1.08 Trillion GDP provided by the commodities boom, what are are your 2008/2009 expectations in that area as well?
November 5th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Judging from the newspaper commentaries reality isn’t quite here yet. The attitude still seems that lowering interest rates, like Rudds handouts, will fix the problem. Give it another month or two.
November 5th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
It seems to me these cuts are being used as a psychological tool as much as an economic one – the trick is to cut rates more than the markets expect to ease their fears of a slowing economy. But it is a self fulfilling prophecy – why are the RBA cutting by so much so quickly? Something must be really wrong. That’s why after these cuts, the market recovers, and then flattens out badly, sometimes falling below the recovery of the previous day. The interest rate tool looks increasing blunt as the real economy spins out of control, rendering models and theory useless.
November 5th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Brett, the RBA will not be particularly interested in house prices. What they will have seen is the fall off in new debt. Reduced new debt means reduced flow of money into the economy, which means reduced spending etc. One of the very irrational aspects of the mess is that the RBA realises that there will be a problem but still has allowed the economy to move into a position where huge creations of new debt are required but are unlikely to continue.
The lower house prices are simply a symptom of declinging willingness to borrow. Every weekend I don’t buy a house makes the prices a little lower. I assume that there are now a lot more people not buying and sellers are becoming a bit more desperate.
November 5th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Yes, the theory is wrong and yes, massive build up in private debt underpins our past decades of prosperity and leaves us with a pretty dismal outlook as it unwinds.
But the RBA responded with the only lever it has. My view is that this will be the end of the Taylor rule, manipulation of interest rates in response to inflation figures, but what is to follow?
Abolition of central banks, return to a gold standard and/or unfettered markets Austrian style are unlikely to appeal to beleaguered governments, so is a decade or two of Japanese-style economic lockjaw the best we can hope for?
November 5th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
I think I’m right in saying that these official interest rates refer to the rate to which the RBA lends to banks. Banks bid for this money and the RBA in turn makes available enough money such that the official interest rate is met. In other words its supply and demand for money.
The RBA is able to reduce rates because credit demand has fallen off a cliff and the amount of money that the RBA can offer is enough to mainiting a low rate; ie. defendning a low rate is possible.
The RBA will be able to continue to reduce rates so long as our banks remain robust. If on the other hand defaults rise then its possible that bank reserves become depleted. In such a case the RBA will not be able to reduce rates further unless it receives direct injections of cash from the government as done in the US.
If the government itself becomes hard up for cash then rates could easily rise rather than fall. Such is the case in places like Iceland and Hungary.
I have read (cant remember where) that the Government is planning to issue 25b of debt next year. The coupon rate required will be the tell as to whether rates will continue lower or not.
Thus Steve I would agree that rates are probably headed towards zero as in Japan but only under conditions that allow it t be the case.
My point is that people think that the RBA/gov can control interest rates at will (I’m not sayting that you do Steve); this is not correct – money does not grow on trees. More accurately is that the RBA/gov has an influence over rates and that this influence depends on the state of the RBA/gov balance sheets.
Benanke’s trick being talked about of buying the long end of the bond curve with money received from selling the short end in order to keep rates down is fraught with difficulty and is dangereous. Australia does not have the luxary of massive inflows into the short term end and this course of action seems unlikely IMO.
Many also think that the gov can bypass issuence of debt to private buyers and can instead issue debt directly to the RBA and in return receive cash created out of thin air. This of course is possible but unlikely in any substabtial way as it would destroy the Australian dollar and crash our bond market.
November 5th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
I would love to see gold back as the reserve currency instead of $US. To take away the ability to just print more reserve currency at will should be good for the global economy.
- Ernie.
November 5th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Ernie
I dont think a gold standard avoids credit bubbles as much of the world was under the gold standard before and during the great depression. I also dont think that countries simply print money. Monetarizing of debt is noticed and countries that do so in any significant manner are penalized through their bond markets. There’s much talk about the US printing money; I dont think that they are as the Treasury money given to the Fed comes from debt that has been sold. In other words the debt has be steralized.
Printing of money creates a positive inflationery loop where banks would cease to lend at rates that are lower than inflation. If banks are forced to lend at rates lower than inflation then they make a loss; if governments then continue to bailout the banks with more printing then the loop is complete.
November 5th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Reducing interest rates may allow a percentage of the population with mortgage debt a slightly higher amount of discretionary income (though recommendation would be to continue paying at higher level and reduce debt faster) for those with a variable mortgage rate, encourage people to buy a house at probably bubble values, and reduce a large proportion of the populations interest rate of return thus reducing their discretionary income.
Would a higher interest rate hurdle increase the requirement that the debt taken is for investments with a higher rate of return and thus more likely to be productive. Higher interest rates would have reduced the bubble in the first place, rather than trying to encourage the continuation of bubble or protection of people who took imprudent risk.
November 5th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Is it true that approximately 75% of our GDP is commodities boom derived? I’m having a sinking feeling in the guts, please tell me it’s otherwise.
November 5th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Hi Steve (and/or blog readers),
Does the ABS publish their house-price data having adjusted it for inflation? If house prices fall by 1.8% in a year, does this mean they have fallen more like 6-7% in real terms?
Anders
Non-economist bystander
November 6th, 2008 at 10:05 am
I cant help noticing that 90-95 % of all questions on this site, and many of those are extremely good questions, go completely unanswered, defeating the purpose of the blog.
November 6th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Dear Gary,
I take your point in one sense, but the purpose of a blog isn’t only to raise a discussion amongst blog members. I set up this site to make the analysis in Debtwatch more widely accessible, and on that front it’s been highly successful.
Too successful in one sense–in that if I did spend my time answering all queries that are inspired by a given entry, I would do little else.
So I rely on members of the blog community to provide answers within themselves, and only occasionally answer any myself directly.
However I do take note of the discussion and this influences what I am likely to write in a subsequent Debtwatch or blog entry.
It is also the case that sometimes those questions have been answered, in a sense, in earlier posts. I could answer each of those again, but… I have a lot on my plate.
Nonetheless I am conscious of the problem you identify. Again it’s a problem of too much success without the resources to back it up.
November 6th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Hi Steve,
Interesting post by John Quiggin on Australia’s debt-related “financial risk” here:
http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2008/11/06/australia-at-risk/
November 6th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Here is a link to a young Alan Greenspan talking about the Gold Standard back in 1966:
http://www.itulip.com/greenspangold.htm
I would like to see the global reserve currency go back to a representative form of Gold Standard rather than the $US that is currently is. I didn’t mean all currencies adopt the Gold Standard, just the reserve.
- Ernie.
November 6th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Hi Steve
What do you think the odds are of a run on US treasuries, the need for the US to do a volcker and a spiraling upwards of interest rates at this point in time?
I have a feeling this is what is going to happen within the next years, or months, and that this could be a sell off in the commodities bubble, like it was when treasuries showed a similar pattern at around the same time in 1998, when the internet bubble had a huge correction.
November 7th, 2008 at 1:27 am
“What do you think the odds are of a run on US treasuries, the need for the US to do a volcker and a spiraling upwards of interest rates at this point in time?”
That’s the armaggedon situation that the US wants to avoid at all cost. It wants to depreciate it’s currency yet at the same time maintain foreign credit supply. In essence they want to have their cake and eat it too…a tricky, fine line for sure.
I believe this puts a cap on the quantity of debt that can be monetized without causing the run on treasuries that policymakers rightfully fear.
With Obama now president the US will start to lose it’s military leverage over global commodities which puts a new spin on the dollar as the world’s reserve currency.
I think we will have a new international exchange architecture put in place very soon(2yrs)
Something along the likes of the substitution account at the IMF will probably be put into play,
for starters.
The current beggar thy neighbor policy ends in global depression so will soon be brought to an end through a new global currency exchange mechanism.
November 7th, 2008 at 11:15 am
My understanding is this; so long as the Chinese are willing to loan the USA all this money they want to spend on propping up their finance industry – then the debt is not monetised (a creation of new money).
Therefore, there is no real inflation risk and the USD remains in good shape. In the global recession it might be a good currency bet as it remains the reserve currency.
If the USA cannot find enough foreigners to borrow off, and decide they would like to spend all this money anyway – then they have a problem.
If they resort to issuing more debt themselves (printing money). Well, then we get inflation on steroids.
The creditor nations of the world have a lot of power right now.
November 7th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Hi Ralph,
The issue may be that there is getting to be significant competition among governments for money. I read in the RGE Monitor a very scary article suggesting that there are a number of European countries looking to sell government debt who cannot find a buyer. I suspect (based on Quiggin’s article referenced by James Haughton above) that Australia may also have some trouble selling government debt.
My area of ignorance is around what government’s do to finance deficits when they can’t sell their debt. I guess the USA can always “fire up the printing press”. If we tried it though I suspect we may get spanked.
November 7th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
If we can’t find people to take Government debt then the options are not good. If the debtors are Australians, then the government can fire up the presses and pay them in new plastic money. This would, however, lead to inflation of the currency on a Zimbabwean scale. If the debtors are foreign, then we can sell them bits of Australia (Western Australia looks nice), but we can’t pay them in new plastic money because it is essentially Government debt.
In one scenario we end up broke with a dollar worth 10 cents US, but might still be able to go to the beach, and in the other we end up with a dollar worth 70 cents but not owning (as Australians, our banks, or government) anything productive in the country which would allow us to get those dollars.
Two things Keating is always pilloried for in popular rememberance is the ‘Bannana republic’ and “The recession we had to have” and I think both are looking farsighted.
November 7th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
…….. or, the Govt could slash spending and handout’s and stop being nanny’s to those who are not prudent with their money. Alternatively, they may increase taxes in order to mop up some of that pesky deficit.
Amazing isn’t it? After years of healthy surplus, the Rudd Labour Government manages to shoot their bolt , blowing it in just a few months.And they are not done yet, by a long shot.
We still haven’t yet seen the bill for the ABC Learning bailout thats surely coming.
November 7th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Yes, they could and probably would have to – but that solves future expenditure not debt per se.
The ABC learning fiasco can be played for points by both sides of politics. Fiscal conservatives of a liberal swinging persuasion can deride labour for bailing out failed industries. Leftward leaning people of the labour stripe will observe that the government wouldn’t have to bail out essential industries if they hadn’t been privatised or left to a poorly regulated market.
I think the ‘economic rationalist’ consensus that government can avoid political responsibility for the functioning of key infrastructure by placing it in private hands was always delusional. Free markets appealed to no-one more than politicians without ideas for actually managing services who wanted to sound forward thinking.
Without childcare we lose a sizable percentage of our workforce, and so like power, hospitals, roads, and rails it is essential. Since the reality is that the Government always was carrying the downside risk of ABC learning, whether it agreed to or not, then I doubt it should have been so hands-off in allowing an entrepreunerial debt-ponzi scheme to become so prominent in running this service.
As for the years of healthy surplus. Well yes, there have been years of excess tax income from property sales and higher incomes but this didn’t reflect actual economic activity as much as debt financing of everything in sight (see ABC learning). So its not suprising that when the debt stops the government, labour or liberal, finds the surplus stops too.
November 7th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
See Crikey
November 7th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Off Topic;
Given Rudd’s paranoia over the press, spin control and managing the news cycle , along with his enthusiastic economic learning curve on recent US visits, I’m very much inclined to believe that the ABS Unemployment stats are being heavily massaged.
We saw evidence of this bent openly a few weeks back when Rudd hastily convened an hours show on Channel 7 on Sunday night, to DIRECTLY coincide with an extremely bearish 60 Minutes show featuring Steve Keen, saying you know what.
This Gov’t is madly pulling out ALL stops to mitigate falls in consumer confidence and prop up lending/borrowing. Aided and abetted by the vested interest of the RE industry and Banks.I cannot for a minute imagine that Rudd would not be sorely tempted to buttress consumer sentiment by fudging the Unemployment figures. Not for a nanosecond even. In fact, that is exactly the mind control/ Orwellian option Rudd would go for at the Ministry of Truth. This kind of stats falsification has been taken to a new art form in the US over decades- that font of all wisdom.
November 7th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
GSM: Whist some of what you say is true – all western governments are currently doing this style of stats (have been since Clinton). So to lay it all at one prime ministers feet isn’t very accurate.
They are at best, mathematical based surveys. So accuracy has never been guaranteed.
No conspiracy theory, just a bit of general manipulation by all.
November 7th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Ralph,
Accuracy is never assumed with these figures anyway. Relativity and credibility most certainly are assumed and therein lies their power to persuade.
Yesterdays report was a rather blatant manipulation of crucial information by what is keenly a spin sensitive Gov’t. Something to keep in mind for the future as I’m certain this is a dark and core feature we will be seeing more of in Kevin’s very media savvy regime.
And, you can be sure it is conspiracy, when these official entities conspire to spin critical stats to achieve a desired outcome – support consumer confidence.
For a good look at how it’s done in the US, more info can be found at http://www.shadowstats.com
November 8th, 2008 at 8:36 am
I don’t disagree that it takes place, Australia has been using things like the hedonic adjustments in inflation calculations for some time. This might understate inflation by up to 3%.
But it’s been happening for some time, so you can hardly lay it at the feet of Kevin Rudd.
November 8th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Think stats and their manipulation, and I think about what the cpi would be if land was included. With the cost of land up about 300 percent in under 10 years it is certainly clever of the RBA or responsible party to exclude it from the cpi. Clever, not intelligent or indicative of any intention to advance the community in any sort of fair way.
Another recent sleight of hand in regards to inflation and the massaging the cpi was increasing Child Care rebate from 30 to 50 percent. That effectively disguised the real rate of inflation, but not as much as excluding the cost of land.
November 8th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Altakoi – very good point and we are going the same way with energy and water. There needs to be a strong public movement to warn Ministers that essential services cannot be delivered by companies that are either too big, or by virtue of their industry, too important to fail. Implicitly, Govenrmnt will underwrite any investment in energy or water – when risk is distorted in this way, private industry lacks the discipline to manage effectively.
November 8th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Hello all
The other false statistic is unemployment rate and this has been so for about 40 years! Current actual unemployment is, and has been in double figures for several years. Both political parties are responsible for all of this. Don’t just blame Rudd. The statistics need to be “de-reformed”.
November 8th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Rudd’s reaction can be best explained in terms of current economic philosophy and the public service brand of socialism that he is a part of.
Standard economic theory of the moment is that there is nothing wrong with constantly expanding debt just that we’ve stuffed it up and debt has gone out of fashion. Bring it back to popularity and get people borrowing again and life will be fine. Read the mainstream commentary and there is barely a comment that overall debt is too high. And who better to fix this but the government and all those clever people who run things. Just forget that hose are the same people who didn’t notice that anything was happening in the first place. Don’t even look at the NSW state government where all the “press officer one day, departmental head the next” types have stood around watching the state go bankrupt.
To those criticising the ABS; they do their jobs properly but are lumbered with some definitions which are used internationally and are easy to manipulate. A better definition of unemployed would be anyone who makes less than the minimum wage and would like more work.
November 9th, 2008 at 12:11 am
Ken
What other country(s) use the one hour of work per fortnight criterion for (unemployed). I have not found one.
As to your definition it would be much better particularly from a social justice angle but not from the national loss of productivity angle. From a national view lost effort from real wealth creating activity is a loss which should be accounted for.
They (Liberal and Labour) have been using private debt and the current account as a Magic Pudding for thirty three years and now Turmbull claims that Rudd is treating the fiscal deficit as such when he reduces it for just one year!
The current standard economic theory is clearly a joke but to say this is a radical act. Clearly we live in a kind of totalitarian state at a time when mass deception is being used to try to solve the economic problems.
George Orwell once said word to the effect “In times of mass deception, to tell thr truth becomes a radical act”.
November 9th, 2008 at 6:52 am
The deceptions have occurred at the societal (herd) level. The economists, politicians and voters are all a part of the same herd and they have all convinced themselves that conventional wisdom is “the most correct”. Rudd and the ABS are not trying to trick us. They believe this stuff most of the time. They did nothing about rising debt levels because the herd wanted it that way. The pollies believed that was the right path too because they are a part of the herd.
The herd is slowly changing and becoming risk averse. The governments will slowly change too. If a depression comes, debt will be considered evil and the governments of the World will have to find ways to reduce debt too or they will be going against the herd (which rarely happens).
How else do you think debt to GDP fell so far during the Great Depression. If the herd continued to think like it did in 1929 that turnaround would never have been as dramatic.
The future is very hard to predict. The government policies of the future may be exactly the opposite of what the herd thinks will/should happen today. Ie, increase taxes, reduce spending. Sell depressed assets. All to reduce debt.
Also going against the herd is very difficult. That is why the readers of this site are in the minority and probably always will be.
When the risk averse world is calling for the total abolition of debt and debt to GDP is somewhere hear 60% or 40%. We will be saying stop the clock. You’ve gone too far. We now need debt inflation to grow our economies. But the herd will call us evil and discount us as loonies.
November 9th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Ken said: “…sellers are becoming more desparate” In truth sellers aren’t becoming more desperate- they are just not chosing to sell at auction- their auctioneer/agent is just putting in vendor bids somewhere near what they want, and then have chicken raffle afterwards, and they end up getting a price somewhere near what they want (obviously an artificially inflated figure, because its post vendor’s bid).
Get rid of the vendor’s bid, and you will get prices closer to reality; ie: market driven price results not artificially inflated ones.
To prove the real-estate industry just doesn’t get it- here’s Enzo Raimundo (REIV CEO) take on this weekend’s auction results (low clearance levels) in Melbourne: “There are two ways to look at what’s happening, either the interest-rate cuts have been stopping the market from sliding even further, or they just haven’t gone far enough”
Or maybe Enzo- house prices have been way-too-high for too long, and your members with their dodgey tactics- like Vendor Bids which artificially inflate the market have blood on their hands- but you just don’t get that, do you?!!!!!
November 9th, 2008 at 11:12 am
BrightSpark, try http://laborsta.ilo.org/applv8/data/iloce.pdf page 7 for standard definition of unemployment. This is what the OECD use so most countries use something similar. US doesn’t seem to even have the minimum of 1hr.
November 9th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
If this was like 1930, right before the downleg, you would not have general motors, and that type of stocks already down 90-95 %, or the japanese nikkei indeks trading at a level that is like less it demanded in 1975 when inflation is taken into account. Or like 1982 on a nominal basis.
I think the nikkei and the dow jones are at around the same price level, however, the dow jones looks
so much more expensive on Keen’s graphs, because of the extremely flawed CPI used.
November 9th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Just a small revaluation of the renminbi, and some less buying of treasuries, and we probably get the 0 % boom.
November 9th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Hi everyone
First post but have been reading all of your contributions with great interest for the last couple of months ever since I saw Steve on ABC TV. I finally felt like I had a kindred spirit. Someone calling the debt situation like it is!!!
I have to say that I am not an economist by nature but more of a humanist or an observer of human nature if you will.
I wonder, if you will Steve, comment on oil prices and the apparent (to me anyway lol) pattern where the price of it increases sharply it seems to be the “straw the broke the camel’s back” and tips the economy into recession/depression?
This author below believes it was the precursor to 9 of the last 10 US recessions. Me too! Whenever I see the bloody thing go up I go oh oh straight away. Once oil is replaced with other alternative fuels I shall have to move onto something else like pork bellys I suppose to rely on as an indicator that a recession/depression is on the way.
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2004/06/does_higher_oil.html
Its value in doing that is apparent in the current crisis but it was also so during the great depression just to mention a couple.
I noticed the comments in regard to to auctions and just have to pass on my experience yesterday.
I went to an auction close by just to see whether the recent interest rate cuts are having an effect on people’s interest in buying property (an interesting thought by governments have that to “save” the economy consumers should go into even more debt).
Not many people, maybe ten or so and no bids at all just two “vendors bids”.
My partner and I are deleveraging our heads off. We only have a small credit card debt of less than 2K and actually own our car outright but have a 219K housing loan and we feel grateful just to have that “small” a housing loan lol. But at the least the rate cuts are allowing us to pay off the loan so much quicker.
While further interest rate cuts are good for us as a couple it is bad news in that it surely means that the economy is up to no good.
One final thing. Your Debunking Economics book cost me $50 (and I can afford this so this is not actually a whinge) and not many can afford this and it has a lot of wisdom in it. Don’t suppose much that can be done about it is there? Many people who can not afford that would benefit immensely from it.
November 10th, 2008 at 1:21 am
Low GDP growth outlook with consequent rise in unemployment will put Australia on a twin deficit foreign funding tight rope. Current account deficit 4% GDP and federal budget deficit may head toward 4% GDP. Thats not likely to produce a strong AUD.
November 2008 housing sales are 45% lower than November 2007… Australian housing just went ‘BOOM’
November 10th, 2008 at 8:37 am
Steve,
I enjoy your comments which are refreshingly different from mainstream economic thinking.
Like altakoi and vk in earlier blogs on this topic I am somewhat confused why interest rate cuts at this stage are a good thing.
In addition to their concern I add another point. Perhaps the equation below is too simplistic, but it seems to me to reflect the broad outcome of rate cuts:
Reduction in interest = mores spending = greater debt binge = weaker exchange rate = higher costs of imports = inflation
Thus whilst the US and other economies might go into deflation (with money becoming more valuable – a good thing for people who moved out of stocks into cash), our economy might still inflate?
I realise that a weak dollar would help our exports which is good, but isn’t there a trade-off that suggests that it should not be too weak or too strong (like Goldilock’s porridge ‘not too hot and not too cold but just right’)?
Steve, keep those articles coming, I read them with great interest and agree with almost all you say. Incidentally, I have your book ‘Debunking Economics’ on order with a bookshop.
November 10th, 2008 at 9:23 am
I just read that China has announced a fiscal stimulous package worth $871B over the next 2 years. That’s 20% of their GDP. That’s massive.
That will result in a huge drop in demand for US treasuries as the Chinese will need to keep their money at home. As this repeats itself in other countries, America (and Australia for that matter) may run into some serious funding issues and very soon.
November 10th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Dear All
Firstly I commend Brett’s paper (referenced in his post) to anyone who hasn’t yet read it. It’s an excellent deconstruction of the trends in Australian house prices, and of arguments that what has happened everywhere else (price busts) can’t possibly happen here.
Kevin, I am actually seeing whether it’s possible to produce an e-book version of Debunking Economics which could be sold at a much lower price. That will come eventually, with the inevitable delay that comes from me being a “one man band” with a lot of instruments to play!
On the gold standard/100% reserve money/etc. arguments about how to reform our financial system to prevent a crisis like this again, I am–as I think most blog members realise–a sceptic that these schemes would work. To explain why, I have to elucidate my model of money creation, which is something I’ve been holding off doing for some time. Now that the university year is almost out of the way, I have the time to do a detailed post on that topic, and I will issue a special Debtwatch with it.
On the unemployment data, I agree that the current standard is a farce, but it is one that has been in place internationally for about two decades.
In the aftermath to this crisis, I think we should insist upon a more complex layered measure–i.e., about four different definitions of unemployment, from the minimalist one now employed (one hour of paid employment per week, which disguises how large unemployment is now compared to the 1970s and earlier), through one with a one day a week, another with half-time, one with full-time, and finally one of those working more than 35 hours a week.
This “braid” of measures would then put current and historic data in context, and a “braid average” would give a far more reliable long term indicator.
Finally some house-keeping. Though I err on the side of not answering enough posts, I would ask other blog members to be somewhat more judicious in how often they post.
A debate is great, and much appreciated by me and I’m sure everyone else who has signed up. But please refrain from firing off posts in a “stream of consciousness” way. These posts don’t turn up in your own email in-tray, but they do in all others, adding to email clutter rather than just the debate.
November 10th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Thank you once again, looking forward to the pdf. version of your book!
Cheers.
November 11th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Otto, the reason for dropping interest rates is that everything is happening very fast. The RBA can see the drop off in debt and the resultant reduction in flow of money resulting which ultimately results in reduced spending. It is the beginning of the end. While their models are wrong they will still be giving the truth that bad things are starting to happen in the economy. So they use their only weapon which is to reduce interest rates.
What they will be worried about is a process where everyone sees the economy tightening, gets worried and spending stops even where there is no rational reason. The result could be a massive overshoot as the economy swings from exuberant to pessimistic. It will probably happen anyway. Unfortunately there is the effect on currency and the resultant inflation but they will be considering it the lesser of two evils and it does make things like Australian made cars and having holidays here look better.
blueinca, I suggest that if you have problems with auctions, avoid them and get over it, your concerns aren’t relevant to this blog. Any manipulations are only a minor factor in the pricing of property.
November 11th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Come on Steve, the RBA became part of the problem! With their mioptic view of their role in managing/regulating the economy they have no consideration of the “knock on” effect of the decision to raise rates to breaking point. Home mortgages killing disposable income. High borrowing cost for investment properties raising rents and of course banks using the rate rises to increase all interest rates. If anyone was interested in fighting inflation they would be targeting the food industries, the fuel suppliers as well as the financial industry; but do they? No GUTZ.