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	<title>Comments on: We&#8217;ve only just begun</title>
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	<description>Analysing the Global Debt Bubble</description>
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		<title>By: #11: The public intellectual, Gang of Four, and My Disco &#171; Friday Night Thoughts (and Music)</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/09/19/weve-only-just-begun/comment-page-5/#comment-5210</link>
		<dc:creator>#11: The public intellectual, Gang of Four, and My Disco &#171; Friday Night Thoughts (and Music)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=110#comment-5210</guid>
		<description>[...] dim view of his claims); and his attempts at throwing some cultural references into his message are just plain lame. Keen seems to be a reasonably smart guy who genuinely believes what he&#8217;s saying, but if his [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] dim view of his claims); and his attempts at throwing some cultural references into his message are just plain lame. Keen seems to be a reasonably smart guy who genuinely believes what he&#8217;s saying, but if his [...]</p>
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		<title>By: auskiwi5</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/09/19/weve-only-just-begun/comment-page-5/#comment-4936</link>
		<dc:creator>auskiwi5</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 00:46:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=110#comment-4936</guid>
		<description>Hi all.
I have been reading Steve&#039;s blog and reviewing his alarming data presentations for some time, I&#039;m no economics guru, but common sense (well that&#039;s what it seemed like to me) told me that the economic behaviour we have been watching for perhaps the last 6-7 years was unsustainable. I was so concerned that I shifted my super to an SMF and put it in cash. Seeing potential problems, I also opted not to upgrade my lifestyle and buy a bigger house with associated debt.

Anyway, I have what is probably a very basic question which I haven&#039;t been able to get my head around. But then none of my freinds can explain either.
From the information in this blog, I still don’t get why 3 million Sub Prime and 2.25 million Alt–A mortgages, can bring the market down, even if they were all 100% in foreclosure. As it stands 11% of Sub Prime and 5.6% of Alt-A are in foreclosure and some percentages are in default. (I understand these numbers will rise dramatically as the ARM&#039;s kick in and the economy falters)  There are nearly 116 million dwellings in the US(according to Federal bank data in one of the links, without knowing what percentage of these have mortgages.) How can such a &#039;relatively&#039; small number of foreclosures trigger such big problems.  

It would seem like the house of cards scenario, but I still don’t quite get why. My sense of it is that the Sub-prime issue is a symptom and that the overall private debt in the US is the actual problem.(and probable problem here in Aust in the not to distant future)
Perhaps somebody can clarify for me.

thanks in advance
Steve
Adelaide</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi all.<br />
I have been reading Steve&#8217;s blog and reviewing his alarming data presentations for some time, I&#8217;m no economics guru, but common sense (well that&#8217;s what it seemed like to me) told me that the economic behaviour we have been watching for perhaps the last 6-7 years was unsustainable. I was so concerned that I shifted my super to an SMF and put it in cash. Seeing potential problems, I also opted not to upgrade my lifestyle and buy a bigger house with associated debt.</p>
<p>Anyway, I have what is probably a very basic question which I haven&#8217;t been able to get my head around. But then none of my freinds can explain either.<br />
From the information in this blog, I still don’t get why 3 million Sub Prime and 2.25 million Alt–A mortgages, can bring the market down, even if they were all 100% in foreclosure. As it stands 11% of Sub Prime and 5.6% of Alt-A are in foreclosure and some percentages are in default. (I understand these numbers will rise dramatically as the ARM&#8217;s kick in and the economy falters)  There are nearly 116 million dwellings in the US(according to Federal bank data in one of the links, without knowing what percentage of these have mortgages.) How can such a &#8216;relatively&#8217; small number of foreclosures trigger such big problems.  </p>
<p>It would seem like the house of cards scenario, but I still don’t quite get why. My sense of it is that the Sub-prime issue is a symptom and that the overall private debt in the US is the actual problem.(and probable problem here in Aust in the not to distant future)<br />
Perhaps somebody can clarify for me.</p>
<p>thanks in advance<br />
Steve<br />
Adelaide</p>
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		<title>By: Arnside</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/09/19/weve-only-just-begun/comment-page-5/#comment-4901</link>
		<dc:creator>Arnside</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 23:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=110#comment-4901</guid>
		<description>The dogs have been barking louder and louder for several years. Our form of capitalism relies on continuous expansion to survive. One has only to look behind the Oz immigration policy to see the motor driving the policy.

Those in charge of the US Federal Reserve and Treasury have known all along the full consequences that would result from their loose credit policy. They have for years progressively lowered interest rates and encouraged massive lending and borrowing not only in the housing market but in every sphere of available commerce, knowing that much of this credit would never be repayed. 

If those making the policy didn&#039;t know the likely consequences, they had only to look at the national and international papers and read what others had to tell them.

The questions must be asked what were/are the policy makers trying to achieve, and who were/are the real policy makers behind the scenes, and what are their motives?
 
Were the policies designed to allow those cashed up to reap the coming harvest as the fruit falls off the trees and/or are the policies designed to achieve the ultimate destruction of the existing world financial and monetary system? 

Based on what we have witnessed, even the $700 billion bail-out proposed by the architects of the failed system will only postpone the final demise. 

May be this result is inevitable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The dogs have been barking louder and louder for several years. Our form of capitalism relies on continuous expansion to survive. One has only to look behind the Oz immigration policy to see the motor driving the policy.</p>
<p>Those in charge of the US Federal Reserve and Treasury have known all along the full consequences that would result from their loose credit policy. They have for years progressively lowered interest rates and encouraged massive lending and borrowing not only in the housing market but in every sphere of available commerce, knowing that much of this credit would never be repayed. </p>
<p>If those making the policy didn&#8217;t know the likely consequences, they had only to look at the national and international papers and read what others had to tell them.</p>
<p>The questions must be asked what were/are the policy makers trying to achieve, and who were/are the real policy makers behind the scenes, and what are their motives?</p>
<p>Were the policies designed to allow those cashed up to reap the coming harvest as the fruit falls off the trees and/or are the policies designed to achieve the ultimate destruction of the existing world financial and monetary system? </p>
<p>Based on what we have witnessed, even the $700 billion bail-out proposed by the architects of the failed system will only postpone the final demise. </p>
<p>May be this result is inevitable.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/09/19/weve-only-just-begun/comment-page-5/#comment-4868</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 07:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=110#comment-4868</guid>
		<description>Big Game Hunter,

Hyperinflation maybe the other risk and not as rare as one would think.

Hyperinflation Around the Globe: http://www.dollardaze.org/blog/?post_id=00107&amp;cat_id=17</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Big Game Hunter,</p>
<p>Hyperinflation maybe the other risk and not as rare as one would think.</p>
<p>Hyperinflation Around the Globe: <a href="http://www.dollardaze.org/blog/?post_id=00107&amp;cat_id=17" rel="nofollow">http://www.dollardaze.org/blog/?post_id=00107&amp;cat_id=17</a></p>
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		<title>By: Big Game Hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/09/19/weve-only-just-begun/comment-page-5/#comment-4867</link>
		<dc:creator>Big Game Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 07:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=110#comment-4867</guid>
		<description>Stephen, this is escatly what I was referring to.

Govenments have a vested interest in keeping this mess afloat.

It&#039;s probably passed the point where they do anything else as were all pretty much on the hook now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen, this is escatly what I was referring to.</p>
<p>Govenments have a vested interest in keeping this mess afloat.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s probably passed the point where they do anything else as were all pretty much on the hook now.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/09/19/weve-only-just-begun/comment-page-5/#comment-4866</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 06:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=110#comment-4866</guid>
		<description>Dr Keen, I have just seen on Dow Jones newsire that Mr Swan has instructed the AOFM to issue bonds in order to buy up RMBS.I find this very disturbing the market has finaly realised the debt bubble is unsustainable and rather than let whatever credit is available be allocated to more useful purpose he will ensure the housing market experiences a final terrifying blow off before the crash. Is he insane? Whatever previous govts hav done in terms of negative gearing restricting land supply etc. This is the most reckless. Is he going to provide banks with wholesale funding also when the are shut out of the U.S market in 09. How long could they keep it up with the big 4 borrowing $30B each offshore to maintain this Ponzio scheme? I would think a couple of years at best before the wheels fell off. I fear for the future. 

Stephen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Keen, I have just seen on Dow Jones newsire that Mr Swan has instructed the AOFM to issue bonds in order to buy up RMBS.I find this very disturbing the market has finaly realised the debt bubble is unsustainable and rather than let whatever credit is available be allocated to more useful purpose he will ensure the housing market experiences a final terrifying blow off before the crash. Is he insane? Whatever previous govts hav done in terms of negative gearing restricting land supply etc. This is the most reckless. Is he going to provide banks with wholesale funding also when the are shut out of the U.S market in 09. How long could they keep it up with the big 4 borrowing $30B each offshore to maintain this Ponzio scheme? I would think a couple of years at best before the wheels fell off. I fear for the future. </p>
<p>Stephen</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Keen</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/09/19/weve-only-just-begun/comment-page-5/#comment-4865</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Keen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 06:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=110#comment-4865</guid>
		<description>OK, in the spirit of &quot;Only Cowgirls Get The Blues&quot;, it&#039;s time to get the champagne glasses out. BrightSpark&#039;s post was number 100 for this blog entry--a new milestone in this little discussion forum, which is now regularly attracting over 1500 readers a day.

I apologise to all and sundry that I don&#039;t have time to take full part in the discussions, but I keep as much of an eye as I can on the contributions, and I certainly enjoy them.

All the best, Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, in the spirit of &#8220;Only Cowgirls Get The Blues&#8221;, it&#8217;s time to get the champagne glasses out. BrightSpark&#8217;s post was number 100 for this blog entry&#8211;a new milestone in this little discussion forum, which is now regularly attracting over 1500 readers a day.</p>
<p>I apologise to all and sundry that I don&#8217;t have time to take full part in the discussions, but I keep as much of an eye as I can on the contributions, and I certainly enjoy them.</p>
<p>All the best, Steve</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/09/19/weve-only-just-begun/comment-page-5/#comment-4864</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 06:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=110#comment-4864</guid>
		<description>Phil and Brightspark,

Check out this chart of average relative pay and interesting it begins around the time of fiat money.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/business/24pay.html?em

What I fear is the dynamics that have created these disparities will continue.

An obvious disequilibrium is credit expansion and a denial of that reality has obvious advantage to those who make use of it. I hope such initiatives of advanced physics, engineering, and hardcore mathematics and so on and a purist passion wins out in main stream economics. What my concern is is  that the disequilibrium dynamic of credit expansion is not complicated of itself and if it will just become more shrouded in complex new models . I thought it was the mathematicians and physicists who have been employed creating these wonderful derivative instruments we have now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil and Brightspark,</p>
<p>Check out this chart of average relative pay and interesting it begins around the time of fiat money.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/business/24pay.html?em" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/business/24pay.html?em</a></p>
<p>What I fear is the dynamics that have created these disparities will continue.</p>
<p>An obvious disequilibrium is credit expansion and a denial of that reality has obvious advantage to those who make use of it. I hope such initiatives of advanced physics, engineering, and hardcore mathematics and so on and a purist passion wins out in main stream economics. What my concern is is  that the disequilibrium dynamic of credit expansion is not complicated of itself and if it will just become more shrouded in complex new models . I thought it was the mathematicians and physicists who have been employed creating these wonderful derivative instruments we have now.</p>
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		<title>By: BrightSpark</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/09/19/weve-only-just-begun/comment-page-5/#comment-4863</link>
		<dc:creator>BrightSpark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 06:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=110#comment-4863</guid>
		<description>David

&quot;“Also buying may have less loop gain than short selling”

Are you including credit expansion in the above opinion?&quot;

No, but this and some others factors would need to be considered in a complete analysis.

Phil and David

On the question of equilibrium. From a completely engineering point of view any exponential growth is not sustainable, so economic growth is a terminal condition that is unstable. I think that for economics an exception for this could be derived from its qualitative nature. 

If however the parameter can go positive and negative like the Current Account no explanation is possible. Therefore continuous CADs or CASs are definite harbingers of disaster. I started to worry about 1986. To my Engineering mind (and my son&#039;s) the bubble started to grow in 1973 third quarter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David</p>
<p>&#8220;“Also buying may have less loop gain than short selling”</p>
<p>Are you including credit expansion in the above opinion?&#8221;</p>
<p>No, but this and some others factors would need to be considered in a complete analysis.</p>
<p>Phil and David</p>
<p>On the question of equilibrium. From a completely engineering point of view any exponential growth is not sustainable, so economic growth is a terminal condition that is unstable. I think that for economics an exception for this could be derived from its qualitative nature. </p>
<p>If however the parameter can go positive and negative like the Current Account no explanation is possible. Therefore continuous CADs or CASs are definite harbingers of disaster. I started to worry about 1986. To my Engineering mind (and my son&#8217;s) the bubble started to grow in 1973 third quarter.</p>
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		<title>By: hyperproductive</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2008/09/19/weve-only-just-begun/comment-page-4/#comment-4862</link>
		<dc:creator>hyperproductive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2008 06:04:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=110#comment-4862</guid>
		<description>Hi JHill, I count myself as one Gen Y who has taken the opportunity to build up cash. I&#039;ve considered getting into property a couple of times but when it comes down to it, I can live in much better dwellings and locations as a renter that I couldn&#039;t afford as a buyer. I&#039;m happy to sit and wait for a serious correction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi JHill, I count myself as one Gen Y who has taken the opportunity to build up cash. I&#8217;ve considered getting into property a couple of times but when it comes down to it, I can live in much better dwellings and locations as a renter that I couldn&#8217;t afford as a buyer. I&#8217;m happy to sit and wait for a serious correction.</p>
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