Last month closed with some far from comforting news about the state of the US housing market (sales and prices still falling), US financial institutions (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in need of rescue), Australian banks (NAB’s 90% write-down of its US CDO portfolio). Then ABS figures showed that retail sales had fallen “unexpectedly” by one percent in June. The recent rally in stock markets came to a sudden end, and after a brief period of renewed confidence, the question “how much worse can “It” get?” is once again doing the rounds.
My answer is: a lot worse. The empirical grounds for this assessment are:
- The ratio of asset prices to consumer prices–or the inflation-adjusted asset price index;
- The ratio of private debt to GDP; and
- Japan
In short, global asset markets have a lot further to fall, and a serious recession–the worst we have experienced since the Great Depression–is inevitable. Let’s first look at what the recent drop in retail sales implies for the economy.
An “unexpected” fall in retail sales
Retail sales fell sharply in June, taking most economic commentators by surprise. Even perennial optimists, such as Shane Oliver, were forced to consider that the odds of a recession were “at least 40 percent”.
In reality, the fall in retail sales was inevitable. Spending in Australia has been driven by the biggest debt bubble in our history, and when that bubble peaked, spending had to fall. Since households had taken on a far larger share of debt than business during this bubble, the impact was bound to be seen first in retail sales, rather than investment spending, as I pointed out in November 2006:
“If households reduce their debt levels smoothly, they will have less disposable income to spend and retail sales will slump. If bankruptcies become widespread, the sales downturn will be overlaid with a financial crisis.” (Debtwatch, November 2006, p. 18;
see http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/pre-blog-debtwatch-reports
The suddenness of the turnaround is also no surprise, when you look at the data from a financial point of view. Just as your personal spending each year is the sum of your net income plus the change in your debt, aggregate spending for the economy is the sum of GDP plus the change in debt. As debt rises, the contribution made to spending by any change in debt also rises. Private debt–and household debt in particular–has risen so much in Australia that, at its peak, the change in debt was responsible for almost 20 percent of aggregate demand.
FIGURE 1
As is obvious in Figure 1, debt’s contribution peaked at the end of 2007, and it has been falling ever since. The monthly figures make this even more obvious (Figure 1 records change in debt over a whole year). The monthly increase in total private debt peaked at $30 billion in mid-2007, and trended up to $27 billion by the end of 2007. It has since fallen to a mere $5 billion in the month of June (see Table 1 and Figure 2).
Table 1
Figure 2
At some point, it will turn negative, and change in debt will therefore substract from aggregate demand rather than adding to it. Given that at its peak, debt financed almost 20 percent of demand, even stabilising debt at its current level–$1.85 trillion, compared to a GDP of $1.1 trillion–would result in a 20 percent fall in aggregate demand.
This hit will be felt by both asset and commodity markets: asset prices will fall, as will output and employment. The government’s attempts to counter this–by running a deficit rather than a surplus–will initially be swamped by the sheer scale of the turnaround in debt-financed spending. Even if the government runs a deficit of A$20 billion–the same scale as this year’s intended surplus–it will make up for less than a tenth of the fall in debt-financed spending.
The current “credit crunch” is, therefore, only the first act in a long-drawn out process of reducing debt levels. The second act will be “the recession we can’t avoid”. That recession–which will affect most of the OECD, since all major OECD nations bar France have suffered a similar blowout in private debt levels–will only add to the current decline in asset prices.
The USA: Double Bubble
While the Dow has fallen substantially in the last year, its inflation-adjusted value is still three times its long-term average, and more than 4 times its average prior to the start of this bubble. Even if the index falls merely to its long term average, it still has another 62% to go (in real terms) from its current level. If it reverts to its pre-bubble average, it has another 73% to go.
Figure 3
If those figures seem ludicrously pessimistic and unrealistic to you, take a look below at the CPI-adjusted Nikkei–which fell 82% from its peak at the end of 1989 to its low in 2003. At the time, most commentators blamed Japan’s Bubble Economy and subsequent financial crisis on the opaque and anti-competitive nature of its financial system. We were assured that nothing so ridiculous could happen in the transparent, competitive and well-regulated US financial system.
Yeah, right.
Figure 4
The story for the US housing market is little better. The index has already fallen 23% from its peak in 2006. A reversion to the long term mean implies a further 38% fall in the average house price in America; while reversion to the pre-Bubble mean implies a further 41% fall.
Writedowns by US financial institutions certainly haven’t yet factored in that degree of possible fall in housing values, and as Wilson Sy pointed out recently in two brilliant research papers (1 2), the banks’ “stress test” modelling greatly underemphasises the impact of such asset price falls on their financial viability. House price falls in the USA are far from over, and likewise “unexpected” writedowns by US financial institutions.
Figure 5
Overall, if US markets fall back to their pre-Bubble levels, the stock market will plunge about 80% from its peak (much the same degree of fall as applied in Japan) and the housing market will fall 55% (rather more than happened in Japan, where average house prices fell 44%–but less than Tokyo, where they fell over 70%).
The unique feature of this US asset bubble is that it affects both stocks and houses. There have been three Stock Market Bubbles in the USA in the last century: the “usual suspects” of the 1920s and 1980’s, but also one that doesn’t normally rate a mention: a ’60s Bubble that peaked in 1966, and was followed by a slump that only ended in mid-1982 (see Figure 6).
As Figure 6 indicates, this dual bubble has no precedent. Not only is it a bubble in both asset markets, both bubbles dwarf anything previously experienced. Even the great Roaring Twenties stock market bubble barely pokes its head above the long term average, compared to the 2000s Stock Market bubble–and in the 1920s, as Figure 6 shows, the housing market was relatively undervalued. The overvaluation of today’s housing market far exceeds the now comparatively minor bubble when Keating (Charles, not Paul) was on the loose in the USA.
Figure 6
While the Australian Stock Market is not as severely overvalued as the American, it is still substantially over its long term trend. Even after the recent falls, the inflation-adjusted All Ordinaries Index exceeds its level before Black Tuesday in 1987. It has another 30% to go before it will have reverted to the mean of the last 25 years (see Figure 7).
Figure 7
The prognosis for the Australian housing market is substantially worse. Even on short term data–covering only the last 22 years–the market could fall 40% if it reverted to the mean, and 50% if it reverted to the pre-bubble mean. Nigel Stapledon’s research into long term house prices in Australia–which is not shown here–implies an even greater potential for a fall in house prices.
Figure 8
Of course, such talk can seem nonsensical and alarmist. Especially if you ignore what happened in Japan.
Japan: the world’s most recent debt-deflation
Japan clearly underwent a debt-deflation after its “Bubble Economy” spectacularly burst in 1990. In its aftermath, house prices across Japan fell on average by 42%, and by over 70% in Tokyo (though they have since recovered slightly).
Figure 9
Figure 10
What has happened there can happen in Australia, the USA, and the rest of the OECD–especially since our Bubbles, while smaller than the Tokyo bubble, are larger than that for Japan as a whole (see Figure 11).
Figure 11
The killer behind the Bubble: Debt
The level of overvaluation of asset markets reflects the unprecedented scale of private debt, both here and in America–since the vast bulk of that debt was undertaken to finance “Ponzi” speculation on shares and housing. This is the reason that this recession will be so severe–as will the asset market bust.
Every “recovery” from a debt-induced recession since 1970 has involved resumption in the tendency for debt to grow faster than GDP (see Figure 12, where the once seemingly major debt crisis of the late 80s is now just a pimple on the upward trend of the debt ratio to its current unprecedented level).
Yet today the debt to GDP ratio is more than twice that of the Great Depression. It is simply cannot go any higher. Who else, after all, can banks lend to, now that they have exhausted the “subprime” market?
The only way for the debt to GDP ratio now is down (unless we’re unlucky enough to experience deflation, in which case the ratio will rise further, as in the Great Depression), and as it heads down, so will output and employment. A serious recession is inevitable.
Welcome to “the recession we can’t avoid”.
Figure 12






August 4th, 2008 at 10:48 am
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August 4th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Steve,
Thanks for your commentary. Late last year I got hold of your paper “deeper in debt” and even though I’m not an economist I devoured it! For a while I have been trying to justify my fear of buying a home with a large mortgage. The peer pressure from family, friends, the hype in the media and from real-estate agents have all played a part in fueling my doubt. But I could never shake the sense that “something is not right.” And I could not explain the miraculous rise year on year until I came across your paper! I’m now starting to feel vindicated in my choice to rent for so long – and very proud to be debt free!
However I do hope that your abysmal predictions are wrong. The kind of recession you describe will affect all, and there doesn’t seem to be an easy and quick way out! I wonder if there are factors in our economy that places us in a better position when compared with Japan or the US, and perhaps deliver that “soft landing” we no longer hear about.
Surely the extra income from mining will allow governments to spend more, and perhaps even take on some debt to make up for some of the GDP lost, while households get their debt levels sorted? Mining is also having an effect in keeping unemployment low, not only directly, which is extremely important when there are high debt levels in the community.
I would also like your thoughts on the effects of supply and demand on housing in Australia. My understanding of the US situation is that home values where inflated by excessive credit and consumer exuberance but at the same time there were too many new homes built, and there is now oversupply. We don’t seem to have that same oversupply problem? And surely this will act to moderate falls on our market?
Danny
August 5th, 2008 at 12:07 am
My answer (not Steves) is that mining doesn’t generate near the same cash flows as debt currently does. It also isn’t a great employment generator only about 1-2%. What mining has done is trigger a property and infrastructure boom.
I think supply and demand of housing is largely irrelevant. If people can’t afford housing they will find something cheaper. At worst they will give up something else, but that will reduce other spending. Immigration will also decrease reducing demand for housing.
August 5th, 2008 at 7:00 am
While I do agree we are about to have a recession and that house prices are overvalued, I have a few comments. I am not an economist though.
1. Why do you expect asset values to revert to a cpi adjusted mean? If all asset classes did this, then there would be no reward for taking on the additional risk of investing in shares or property. Even cash invested in a term deposit returns greater than cpi and so would not revert to the cpi adjusted mean.
2. There are distortions to the aus housing market that should also be considered when looking at house prices. Namely CGT on primary place of residence was exempt in 1999(?) This meant that houses actually did become more valuable as an ‘investment’ when the tax law changed.
If I put my $600k into the bank earning 5% I get a return of $30k p.a, but have to pay tax of about $12k, leaving a return of $18k. If you look at what type of house you would rent for $18k, and what you would buy for $600k, I am not convinced they are too disimilar (I have just made the rent/house purchase transition so do know a slice of both markets).
August 5th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Dear Steve;
I am not an economist but what you have been saying is so logical that I have had much the same feelings about the crazy credit funded asset bubble for quite some time.
I am surprised the Howard Government, the RBA, other economists and the main stream media did not see what you saw and did whatever they could to dampen the credit binge.
But where to now? There is no in depth widespread debate and the opposition continues to play politics at a time when the dangers you speak[of are lurking.
August 5th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Great read, I have enjoyed reading (and listening) to your blog over the months.
I am not an economist, so please bear with me through the next couple of naive questions.
I am curious to hear what you expect will happen to interest rates. There is talk that the RBA will lower rates but what I am wondering is how much of an impact this will have to actual lending rates from banks and other institutions?
If banks are getting a lot of their money from overseas still, and credit is starting to demand higher risk premiums, what effect will a lower RBA cash rate have? As I see it, this will push the value of the Australian dollar down. Will that affect investment from overseas and potentially make dollars harder for banks to obtain? Could this have the undesired effect of raising real rates? In the US, Bernanke has lowered short term rates but Mortgage rates have increased slightly as people are less inclined to plunge dollars into a shaky foundation. What will be the ramifications for Australia if the RBA goes Bernanke on us? Will our Mortgage rates come down, stay the same, or continue their independent push upwards? My gut feel tells me central banks are not as firmly in control as they would like to be at the moment – and every choice is plagued with problems from a direction they least want it. Any answers would be appreciated and thanks for keeping us all in the know.
August 5th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Hello Steve
Your Debtwatch continues to be very interesting.
Here is an Engineer’s comment on the last of your graphs (Debt to GDP the long term view) in this Debtwatch.
The trend lines seem to closely follow exponential increases in debt to gdp ratios. Before 1890 the natural time constant is just over 10 years, before 1930 it is just under 10 years, and after 1930 it is just over 20 years.
Now the period from 1892 to 1930 is about 4 time constants and the period from 1930 to 2008 is also about 4 time constants. This prompted me to check whether or not there was a similar economic problem 4 time constants before the 1890s depression. I was shocked to discover that there was a depression in the 1840s!
This may all be a coincidence but if it were describing the behaviour of a system that I needed to stabilise, as an Electrical Engineer, I would be investigating this in far more detail.
August 5th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
I think I read on one of your posts that Private debt was just under $1trillion. From 2003 to 2007 the annual trend in debt growth went from around $150B to over $250B. During that time the total amount of private debt must have more than doubled. No wonder bank profits went through the roof.
I agree that the great de-leveraging will cause demand to fall. Employment will contract, demand will fall etc (the negative multiplier) This too will cause house prices to fall. House prices are silly. The but though, is the Australian (consumers and banks) obsession with property. Once there has been a correction of say 20%, 30% or even 50%. The average punter will start rebuilding their “wealth”. They will go to the banks, who will want to lend money. After a time, the whole process will start again and house prices will rise. So too will debt levels.
Sentiment has turned negative. The fear has begun. As consumer sentiment continues to fall the panic will increase. History shows, when panic is at it’s highest level that is the bottom. The question is how bad will the panic be? In 1991/1992 Westpac nearly went under. The panic was unbearable.
This time though, it appears worse and some banks and many consumers will be hurt in the process.
Questions: Steve,
1. Do you think some banks will fail in Australia during this downturn?
2. Everyone is holding onto the fact that unemployment is low. It occurred to me though, with debt levels so high. That a move from 4% to 5% unemployment may be the same as moving from 8% to 10% (capturing what happened in the early 90s recession). Has anyone stress tested housing markets for rising unemployment?
August 5th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
markrmau, the solution is simple: when house prices drop the rent will need to provide most of the return rather than capital gains. If your $600000 house becomes a $300000 house, returning say 5% after costs and another 2-3% capital gains per year it all works out nicely.
Someone of course will say “but people wont be motivated to borrow money for rental properties” and the answer is yes, they wont. The whole idea of negatively geared rental properties was always stupid. It breaks one of the most important rules of any capitalistic system which is the only way to make money is to do something productive. One way of being useful is to supply money to others but there is no usefulness in borrowing money simply to purchase and rent out an asset. If you add value in some way, for example borrowing for a factory then fine but otherwise any system that encourages this sort of activity is going to fail simply because it encourages unproductive activity.
August 5th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
markrmau,
here is a link to an interesting article on asset values (property in this case) and how they tend to revert to a cpi adjusted mean over time.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/28/2148237.htm
I am sure there has been plenty of “distortions” over time even in that market.
//L
August 6th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
‘Recession’ is the wrong word for this one. It implies that growth is a normal and sustainable state. It takes energy and other resources to grow, but it’s not assured that they will be available in sufficient supply. Peak oil will mean there’s no recovery from this one. It appears as though the crude oil export market has already peaked and started to decline. It’s really the end of growth as we have come to know it. The beginning of the end of this global civilisation.
August 6th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Hi Steve,
Thanks again for your work.
1. What if the Reserve Bank cuts rates to say 4%? This will make housing more affordable. Would this underpin a new boom in debt, thus resulting in a worse problem down the track?
2. Are you sure the correction is now? I guess your theories would still be correct if the boom in debt went on for a few more years. As long as it retreats to the long term average then. Is that correct? ie, assuming the growth in debt (for the time being) begins increasing again, because of much lower interest rates.
August 6th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Bullturnedbear,
It is an interesting question. My take (and I am no economist so correct me if I am wrong) is that the RBA is in a very precarious position. Our economy really is a two paced economy. On the one hand, we have the hugely indebted part of the population driving a large part of the economy through their willingness to take on debt and consume. It is this part of the economy that is leading us down the recession path now that debt levels are too large. We also have the section of the economy driven by the mining boom and enjoying the best trading position in years.
If the RBA lowers rates to much, could it not start impacting the debt driven part of economy in a bad way? The reason being that our dollar will come down vs the US and Euro which will drive the prices of our imports up as well as inflation. Will wages rise? I doubt it – people are under the thumb of the big debt monster – they will be happy just to keep their jobs and the unions are not as strong as they were in the 70’s especially with a more competitive global workforce. Also, there is no guarantee that lending levels will go down with the cash rate set by the RBA. Access to credit markets – especially mortgage backed securities, is drying up very rapidly. Where will the future cheap credit actually come from as the overseas supply of money stagnates? Look at what has happened in the USA and the UK. Short term rates down but not long term rates. Oil prices and inflation up, wages fairly stagnant. The USA is different to here, but will the RBA be treading a dangerous line lowering rates too quickly? There are ramifications to these things in a globally competitive economy and dropping rates is a fairly blunt instrument. I would be interested to hear other more informed opinions.
August 6th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
I would guess that Tokyo did not have an oversupply problem either and yet their prices fell by over 70%, so perhaps 50% is possible.
August 6th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Ok here is my question – what can a family like us do to protect themselves from the fallout of this mess. Our situation is fortunately quite different from most in that my family has zero debt, a fully paid off home and a fully paid off investment townhouse in a good suburb. We have about $200,000 in term deposit and about $150,000 in 2 super funds. Only about $20,000 of our assets are in the stock market (apart from super). We tend to be quite frugal. So – what to do? Sell the townhouse and see our cash inflated away or stay put?
Thanks!
August 7th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
posted the link at
http://www.tickerforum.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-www?post=55476
August 7th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Some excellent data provided by you Mr Keen. I work in financial markets (Equities) and I have been following a lot of data, comments and opinions over the debt crisis, US housing crisis since August last year.
There is 1 point I would like to make about our local propert market.
It amazes me that if you catch the news out of the US (I also have conference calls with US brokers as well), there is so much devoted to the housing crisis and every one knows about it, however, in Australia (where we have the highest debt levels in the world per capita) there is very little news about the inevitable correction for our local property market.
Obviously the banks and large media providers have such a vested interest in making sure that Australians feel that our property market is different to the US, UK, Ireland and Spain to name a few. I think its time the banks and media face the hard fact that property prices dont go up forever and do fall. Look at Japan house prices since 1990.
August 7th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Ken,
“The whole idea of negatively geared rental properties was always stupid. It breaks one of the most important rules of any capitalistic system which is the only way to make money is to do something productive.”
Just because something is wrong (or stupid) in theory doesn’t mean people won’t do it again and again. Australians have had 30 years of believing negative gearing works and it has, arguably up until now. If prices drop 50% (depending on sentiment post the drop) the majority of people will still believe that negative gearing will be the way to go. Also, if we have house price deflation in the order of 50%, rents will drop too. A drop of that magnitude will massively reduce the money supply and likely all prices (and wages too) will drop.
Also I would expect to hear many causes for the crash, including; America, Kevin Rudd, oil prices, the banks, lack of buyers, poor real estate agents, etc. Most likely high debt levels will be a “symptom” and at the very least “a contributing factor” Humans don’t like to admit they were wrong, they prefer to blame others.
I believe though, that debt levels, overly exuberant speculation and turning negative sentiment will be the causes.
I have prepared by cashing up. My fear now is that things get really bad and the banks fail, taking my cash with them. I haven’t resolved this problem yet.
August 7th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Bullturnedbear, I agree there will be as strong aversion to getting rid of negative gearing and a strong belief that it works. The “free lunch” ideas we’ve had are hard to shake, although lenders and buyers may be in short supply for a long time.
It isn’t actually necessary to get rid of it though, simply keep interest rates a bit higher and enforce more realistic regulatory requirements on financial institutions and debt stops expanding in real terms and so does property values and negative gearing becomes pointless.
August 8th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Ken
I agree negative gearing is stupid and has now doubt caused significant destabilising positive feedback. It should be reigned is together with all of the other slack debt encouraging practices.
Your second comment regarding regulatory requirements on financial institutions leads me to suggest a possible control loop. The severity of the regulations on home loan lending could be
tied to house prices. If prices are acceptable regulations would be minimal but would be progressively strengthened using a published formula as the prices rise above these acceptable levels. A negative feedback loop would be established.
In the same way a situation near a crash level could be brought under control and used to gradually reduce prices to an acceptable magnitude. When prices are within the desired range this feedback could be strong with the loop having a high gain. To take control in an impending crash situation the control loop would need to have low gain. The trouble is I can hear the crash warning saying “terrain pull up” right now, perhaps control can be gained after this impending crash.
August 9th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Greetings All,
I’m afraid I’m too busy to make a detailed reply to queries here, but fortunately the feedback within the discussion answers many of the queries anyway–like the post showing the long term reversion of the house price/consumer price ratio (one additional point I’ll add is that the concept that there are two price levels in capitalism–commodities and assets–valued on two different bases–costs and expectations–is an essential component of Hyman Minsky’s financial instability theory.
Purchases of the latter (assets) are driven by debt, whereas servicing the debt relies on profits from sales of the former (commodities); hence the tendency to revert after a bubble. There’s more to it than that, on which I suggest reading Minsky in the original.
On the negative gearing issue, I think there’s room now for one reform: linking negative gearing to actually having rental receipts. The one ostensible reason we have it is that it underwrites the provision of rental properties, but there is strong anecdotal evidence that, with rental returns as low as they were in the early 2000s, many properties are simply left vacant.
A requirement to have rental receipts to get negative gearing could force a large extra supply of rental properties onto the market, which is socially needed.
That 1840s metric was interesting Brightspark. I knew of the 1840s depression because it played a large role in the radicalisation of the labour movement at the time–specifically the rise of Marx and Engels to prominence. I would love to get the data back that far, but unfortunately the UK statistical office has a poor quality time series on that issue.
On how to put in controls that stop the system doing this again, anything as feedback oriented as you suggest is likely to be “reformed” out of existence during a boom. We need structural reforms–things that are much harder to remove and simply eliminate the incentives that currently lead to periodic bubbles.
As Ken notes, these things are very hard to achieve–especially eliminating negative gearing–but if any time is ripe for such a fundamental change, the next five years are it.
August 9th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Hi Steve,
I heard you talk about house prices falling 40% on the ABC.
Do you think some Australian banks could fail? The banks have a huge concentration of home loans and loans to SMEs. I believe the SMEs are very vulnerable, because of the way they have geared up and bought more assets as their business income has grown through the boom.
August 10th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Bullturnedbear said
‘My fear now is that things get really bad and the banks fail, taking my cash with them. I haven’t resolved this problem yet.’
The problem is easily resolved – covert your paper fiat to precious metal, clear of margin and held in your custody.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
Whether banks fail is one of those events that is totally unpredictable because it depends on so many factors. If prices collapse slowly then they are likely to survive but if the RBA and government get economic policy wrong or everyone panics then some banks will collapse. All it takes is a lot of people to panic and withdraw their money and a bank will collapse. It may not even be insolvent simply that it doesn’t have the cash to repay deposits.
August 13th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Hi All,
I see that Japan has just posted a large measure of negative growth for the previous quarter. The US stock market has had two rallies of over 300 points on the DOW in the last week. (A rally over 300 points in a day has only ever happened in a bear market) and wages in Australia are growing at 4.5% (that will scare the RBA)
All this says to me that the share market is getting ready for another large move lower. If that happens watch for confidence to fall dramatically and credit growth in the US and Australia to fall off the cliff.
I’m willing to put that one out there anyway. How do you guys see things playing out?
August 13th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
I’m wondering if the RBA will actually have to move to strengthen the dollar – ie raise interest rates – to reduce the impact of imported inflation.
Very interesting that the commonwealth bank has posted a high profit…
August 13th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Hi Casso,
I have been pondering for a while the possibility that the Commodities boom will end and deflate prices and profits over time. Thus causing our currency to depreciate. Yes I agree there may be inflation issues attached. But, the RBA has been saying for a few years now that they are more concerned that wages don’t blow out.
I believe consumers have been conned by the media into believing that “we will be OK” because of the commodities boom. The boom has resulted in a pending future over supply caused by huge investment based on the assumption that prices will rise endlessly. Once the boom ends, who will the media say is our saviour then? If mining profits begin to plateau or fall next year when the rest of the economy is turning down hard, we may be in for a massive blow to consumer confidence, employment, investment and consumption. That would be a double storm.
Don’t forget though, that a depreciating currency is an automatic stabiliser that will result in our exporters getting higher $A prices and thus cushioning the $US price falls.
Enjoy the ride!!!
August 15th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
With a current account deficit of 6%+ a fall in the dollar is going to be really bad. Exports will increase but imports will increase even more. The foreign investors who prop up the economy by supplying money for debt are going to start worrying and probably take their money elsewhere causing the currency to go lower.
Eventually no one will want to loan us money denominated in Australian dollars. I’m wondering when one of our governments will assert that it is essential they borrow in Yen. My money is on NSW Labor, unless they can sell everything to the Chinese.
August 16th, 2008 at 4:14 am
Bullturnedbear
I agree with Ken the exchange rate drop is bad particularly as we continue with the 33 year 6+% continuous current account deficits, and a large foreign debt.
Fiscal surpluses have had no effect on moderating this. With the governments having very low debt levels because of these surpluses its seems to me that they and the RBA have an attenuated influence on local interest rates.
Also the rapidity of the currency depreciation is a worry at a natural time constant of around 90 days. This was probably triggered by the comments recently made by the RBA regarding future exchange rates.
Any banks exposed to the effects of this change in exchange rate will no doubt be a worry. Are any exposed?
Maybe nationalisation of Australian assets by the Chinese Communists is very close.
August 16th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Hi Guys,
Great to get a bit of a debate going.
I also agree that a massive fall in the currency will cause many complications. I was simply pointing out one effect of the falling currency. That is, it softens the blow to our exporters and helps us earn more foreign currency. I fully believe our mining sector has a looming shock from massive over production and massive wasted investment.
Have you guys noticed in discussions with people that there is denial and a feeling that “I’ll be OK”. I find people seem to think if things get really bad, that others will be affected, but they are not at risk. I find very few people that believe house prices could actually have a significant fall.
August 16th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Recent arguments about real estate prices being propped up by a shortage of stock may not hold up if the experience in the u.k. is anything to go by.
The article below relates that even though there has been a high demand for housing, an even larger supply is coming on the market for rent due to distressed borrowers finding it difficult to sell:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/aug/15/renting.property
August 17th, 2008 at 3:32 am
Hello again Bullturnedbear
There sure is a denial process in place, real estate prices are falling (I recently attended an auction at which there were no registered bidders), but denial rampant. To raise the alarm as Steve does on this blog is seen as a radical act. But this denial has been going on for many years.
I believe that control loops should be set up to stabilise the economy and international trade and discourage speculation but it will take a big market failure to give the wake up call. How can we ignore the CAD when we continue to run such a high CAD even in the middle of a “resources boom”.
To add to my aircraft out of control analogy. The alarm is sounding, the pilots have left the cockpit without setting the autopilot (they don’t believe in it) and are now fraternising with the first class passengers.
August 17th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
To add to the property discussion: I am living in a house I purchased in 1996 for 230K from a guy who paid 280K in 1987. There was nothing clever about the deal, it was just an ordinary house in a nice middle class suburb.
In regard to the investor market for rental property if prices drop say 30% and rents stay about the current level property would again be an attractive place to invest for income with a possible eventual capital gain. Perhaps negative gearing should be restricted to newly buit property to keep the rental stock up and building industry up.
The unwinding of debt may be slow to get started as property owners tend to hang on for a while hoping for a return to constantly rising prices. Eventually feeding a negative mortgage is depressing when the value of the house is going nowhere. If it drops in value for 2 years in a row thats when the great unwinding will realy catch on.
Thanks to thoes that have contributed and no need for any apologies for not been economists as most economist are worse at predicting the future than we are. Cheers
August 19th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Hi Punchy and all,
I believe we are heading for a recession which means higher unemployment and less spending. I believe this will cause rents to fall (despite the so called lack of supply) because people will not be able to afford the rents and they will just make do in smaller houses.
I also believe the “unwinding of debt” will have to be fast or it won’t happen. If it is slow people will just refresh their confidence and return to higher borrowing and higher prices.
I also think the recent counter trend rally in the sharemarket is losing steam. We may be about to see a very large move lower on world sharemarkets in the next two to three weeks. If so, this will knock confidence to the lowest level yet. I also believe this will be the catalyst for a new level of nervousness by banks and consumers that will cause the growth in debt to turn negative and fully signal the end of the 16 year expansion.
August 20th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Steve mentioned in his podcast that house prices are set on the margin but the same applies housing availability. We are told that there is a housing shortage and I suppose the mental image is of thousands of middle-class Australian families sleeping under bridges. The reality of course is that there are plenty of dwellings to go around, but that on the margin some families are struggling to find reasonably priced property in suitable locations.
From personal experience (Europe in the early 90’s downturn) this housing shortage will quickly turn into a glut as the economy rolls over. Living habits will change (increased co-habitation, kids staying home longer etc.) and tens of thousands of overseas workers (hair stylists, IT consultants, retail assistants) who flocked to Australia during the boom will return home as the job market tightens and no dole is to be had. I also expect that the prospect of falling prices will motivate landlords to sweat their assets harder for cash flow, thereby driving up occupancy rates. Taken together these (and other) seemingly small changes will have a substantial effect on the marginal vacancy rate.
Granted Australia doesn’t face the gross housing over-supply of the US, but I suspect that most will be surprised to see vacancies rise over the coming years despite the slump in construction. It would be interesting to see a long-term correlation analysis of vacancy rates to GDP growth.
August 23rd, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Hi Steve,
A very interesting post, and I certainly share many of the concerns expressed in the above comments.
I am however concerned about one statement you make : “Just as your personal spending each year is the sum of your net income plus the change in your debt, aggregate spending for the economy is the sum of GDP plus the change in debt.”
I don’t think GDP is analogous in this comparison to personal net income, rather wouldn’t GNI be closer to the mark ? That is, all income, not just domestic production ? Otherwise you are counting in international debt, but not international income.
Also a question :
Wouldn’t it be more useful in a discussion about national debt to actually work out national net worth ? Most discussions seem to compare income with debt, whereas a more meaningful comparison is income compared to debt payment obligation over the same period.
August 24th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Greetings all,
On Keith’s last point, yes GNI is a more valid measure, but the majority of readers are used to GDP. If I instead used GNI I might find myself having to explain the concept rather than the debt/GNI measure itself, so I stick with GDP.
But I will, if I get the time, produce a Debt/GNI series as well.
Interestingly, a UK colleague has pointed out a twist on this issue: what is private debt really? It seems that the main US Flow of Funds data debt table records debt of US corporations only–debt of US-based overseas companies (e.g., Sony, Mitsubishi…) are not recorded there, but elsewhere.
When this is factored in, the corporate debt/GDP ratio in the USA doubles.
Now, if the main data includes debt of US subsidiaries abroad, then the standard measure is the correct one–since presumably debt of US domiciled Japanese companies is recorded in a similar table by Japanese authorities.
But IF this isn’t the case, then official figures may be excluding all foreign-domiciled corporate debt. As a result, global debt/income ratios could be a lot worse than I have been recording to date.
If any of you have the time to check that issue out for me–by sending queries to the US Federal Reserve on how they record those tables–I’d be most appreciative. As usual, I’m too flat chat myself to be able to follow it up just now.
Good comment re housing oversupply NMW: that was my feeling too, that as soon as the downturn hits, the recorded rental vacancy level will plummet.
On bank failures, I think the scale of debt is so great that at least one major will be forced to fold itself into another–I think we’ll go from four pillars to three stools at some stage. Of course, I’m not about to guess which one, and I have no inside information to support this hunch–it is just a hunch. But if Westpac almost “broke the bank” in 1990, when debt/income was half it is now, then I can’t see us getting through this with the current quartet intact.
As to what that means for your money, that at least is one lesson we learnt from the Depression: don’t let depositors funds evaporate.
A far greater present danger to people’s finances is the value or otherwise of bond and share portfolios. To the extent they’re based on the toxic waste of securitised mortgages, they’re vulnerable–as some local councils learnt the hard way just last week.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:27 am
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August 26th, 2008 at 1:40 am
Economics involves naming our surroundings. This is important if there is a scarcity of food etc as it enables efficiency in production, transport etc., so economics, finance stocks are important.
Then there is no longer any scarcity. Economics must die: it has succeeded. Demand creation occurs. The worst part of that is war. Events help to cause such dislocations that imbalances can be seen to need a remedy: economics is reborn.
Ecology is also being corrupted by manipulation of human “need”. Why don’t we just grow up?
August 27th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Steve Keen:
You said, “As to what that means for your money, that at least is one lesson we learnt from the Depression: don’t let depositors funds evaporate.”
Does this mean that to protect yourself against debt deflation, long-term Treasury bonds are the way to go?
August 27th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Dear Daltica,
Welcome aboard. Yes, if my guess is correct and deflation ensues, then long term Treasury bonds will rise in value.
Were it not for global warming and peak oil, I would be 100% sure of deflation occurring in the next year or two. But since GW and PO both will cause food and transportation costs to rise, it’s hard to say whether the tendency towards deflation caused by a serious debt crisis will manifest itself.
However, even with those two completely unprecedented forces, I am increasingly leaning towards expecting deflation in the next two years or so.
I hasten to add that this is NOT professional financial advice! And it’s one time I know that I’m gambling, because I simply can’t know whether GW and PO will trump DD (“debt deflation”) or vice versa!
August 27th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Hi Steve & Daltica!
Maybe we add in another major force (in addition of GW and PO): the rise of China/India over the next few decades, which means 3 billion humans are joining the global economy, eating, drinking and using up natural resources, commodities. Currently, their consumption is at a low base compared to their Western counter-parts. Imagine what will happen if in the next few decades, they strive to achieve the same standard of living as the developed nations.
What do you think, Steve?
August 27th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Hello Steve
Your comments on the GNI figures released by the US Federal Reserve are both enlightening and distressing. You implied that the Fed data sets are not fully defined! Surely they should publish a full specification of what data they include in any data set and how the collected it? This comes back to the question on validity of available data.
Also I continue to be concerned about two factors that have been driving up the availability of credit and the price of shares these are the CAD and the compulsory superannuation system in this country.
As you and others have already stated the justification for share prices includes the expectation of capital gain through continued price rises and this is reaching a limit of sustainability. This makes the superannuation system look more and more like a Ponzi scheme with government compulsion but no government guarantee. Reliance here is entirely on a nasty out of control positive feedback loop.
With the CAD neo-classical economics claims that there is a natural feedback mechanism which will eventually bring the system into balance. The differential and integral nature of this feedback however is causing delays which are actually turn this into positive feedback resulting in another out of control situation.
What are you thoughts on the CAD and superannuation?
August 27th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
I’m worried Brightspark.
Superannuation SHOULD have been a way of investing in industry. Instead, it became an additional force for speculating on shares and property. I don’t know the current figures, but the pre-1987 stats tell a story: in 1983, 30% of superannuation funds were “invested” in the stock market. By 1987, 70% were.
So the super funds helped drive the bubble in prices up–rather than doing what they should have done, which is finance productive investment.
I’ve personally moved into 100% cash in my own super, to insulate myself from any fallout in a large asset price collapse undermining the capacity of super funds to make their payouts. This is one of the main reasons I was ‘agin securitised mortgages: I could see super funds (directly or indirectly) getting caught up in that, and then damaging their capital base.
On the CAD, the great worry is that a general downturn will cause our export prices to fall so much that our deficit rises with respect to GDP, even as the economy goes into a downturn. That will dramatically increase our foreign debt payment problems–precisely the sort of positive feedback loop you’re concerned about.
August 27th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Hi Guys,
I love the debate.
There is a huge difference between now and the late 80s when thinking of the CAD and foreign debt. That is, nearly all foreign debt is now private (except for some State Government debts). Therefore should a large downturn cause corporations to sink under the weight of their foreign debts, they will go bankrupt and the debts will be written off. Not as damaging as the ongoing cost of servicing rising government debt was in the late 80s. The USA though, does not have this luxury.
Has anyone noticed that the corporate bond market has all but frozen for any company not rated aa or better. Therefore corporates are having to turn back to the banks to roll over existing bonds and to fund new projects. This is further putting pressure on the Banks’ capital base and making them more nervous. I believe this will have the effect of exacerbating bank losses when the downturn deepens and will also make it harder for home buyers to get finance as they compete with the corporates.
A few bankers have also told me that because of reduced competition and a “re-pricing of risk”, they are going through their books and increasing the margins they charge their SME clients. This is on top of the increased cost of funds coming from the credit crunch. I believe the SME sector will come under enormous pressure over the next 18 months.
August 27th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
The problem with investing superannuation in industry is it is guaranteed to lose money. Look at GM in America. At least with mortgages there is a chance of a return. It is probable that while the super funds will lose money for a while on mortgages they will make a profit over the long term. Unlike a bank they can afford a 10% drop in a year.
I worked at a manufacturing plant in the eighties. Labourers getting paid more than experienced graduates, thanks to their readiness to go on strike and shut the place down. Every week a different union would threaten to go on strike. Everyone had their own special job, in between which they did nothing. Tradesman didn’t carry tools, that was the job of the assistant, who of course did nothing while the tradesman worked. It’s now shut down and unemployment in the area will go to 20% in a recession.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Hi all
I’m going to ask a question that might ruffle a few feathers. Given what we know is coming to the Australian economy, how does one take advantage of the downturn, i.e. profit from it? (apart from investing is cash and government bonds)
August 28th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
I thought I would add a comment or two from someone in the trenches. I am in the outdoor recreation industry and we import most products from China. Currently we are increasing our prices by between 20 and 60 percent almost across the whole price list. There are quite a number of products that we have deleted because they will no longer be saleable at the new prices. Our FOB China prices are all up about 30 percent with many steel based products increased by 40 to 80 percent in the last 10 months. I understand that this phenomenon is being experienced by most importers. In addition of course our shipping costs have about tripled in the last few years.
We are now starting to import inflation from China rather than deflation. Note these increases take no account of the recent 10% fall in the A$.
So I wonder about both the measurement and direction of inflation. No doubt it will take some time for all the price increase to filter through. Selling goods is no easy game to be in these days. However filter through they will.
I think the options open to the Reserve Bank will start to narrow down substantially!!
August 28th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
On the CAD, the total CAD over the last 40 years is something like 895 followed by 9 zeroes…aka 895 thousand million dollars. I’m not sure how big a pile of beer cans that is but I’ll try to work it out.
It seems much of this has been financed by the sale of Australian industry and mines to overseas interests. I saw a figure some years ago which said that the Australian mining industry was 68% owned by overseas interests. I have been unable to dig up any figures on this recently and I did hear that they were no longer published. I am not a believer in conspiricies but this has a fishy smell to it. So does anyone know if or where such a figure is published?
August 28th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Outback Oracle, I saw something recently that pointed out that resources booms never last simply because eventually the economies that are consuming the resources suffer from inflation due to increased costs of raw materials and their own internal problems. Their output costs increase and eventually demand falls off, and decreases their demand for raw materials, and the prices of raw materials falls. Bugger.