My Comment on the Green Paper
Senator Nick Sherry, as Minister for Superannuation and Corporate Law, has released a Green Paper Financial Services and Credit Reform: Improving, Simplifying and Standardising Financial Services and Credit Regulation (June 2008)
This is a very apt time for such an enquiry. It is now over a decade since the Wallis Committee supported further deregulation of the financial system, and the consequences of that deregulation are now evident. I doubt that a complete reversal of policy is politically feasible now, but this inquiry may set the high water mark in the belief that the less regulated financial markets are, the better.
Below is my submission.
I recommend that the Commonwealth regulate all credit (Option 1.E.2), not on the grounds that Commonwealth regulation would necessarily be superior to State regulation, but on the basis that all lenders should be regulated. The current regime only applies, in any systematic sense, to deposit-takers.
I make this recommendation, not because I believe that regulation of the pre-Wallis Report ilk would prevent financial crises of the sort we are experiencing now, but because I believe that in the aftermath to this crisis, substantial informed reform of finance will be needed.
A essential aspect of this will be making the regulation of lending, rather than deposit-taking, the centrepiece of the regulatory framework. Bringing all credit providers under national supervision now would make it easier to implement this inevitable substantial informed reform at some future date.
The current arrangements provide comprehensive—if not necessarily effective—regulation of Authorised Deposit Taking Institutions (ADIs), but less comprehensive—and far less effective—regulation of Non-Deposit Taking Institutions (non-ADIs). In particular, Money market corporations, finance companies and Securitisers, which in June 2007 accounted for 20% of the assets of credit providers, are not regulated (See Table 1).

This emphasis upon regulating deposits-takers and not lenders reflects the avowed need to protect depositors funds. However, this direct approach understates the indirect dangers to depositors posed by the excessive growth of debt. Non-ADIs have played a pivotal and direct role in the recent explosion in debt levels, while even Financial Institutions that do not lend—such as superannuation funds—have provided the impetus to increasing debt by the impact of their investment strategies upon asset prices.
Conventional economic analysis implies that controlling ADIs is sufficient to control the financial system. In this view, banks create credit by re-lending depositors funds under a fractional banking system, in which banks keep a proportion of depositors funds as reserves, and lend the rest. With the government creating so-called “Base Money” (or M0), the banks’ capacity to create money is given by dividing M0 by the reserve fraction.
Since non-ADIs by definition do not take deposits, they are not part of this credit-money-creation process, and this largely explains why existing legislation exempts them from regulatory control.
However, this perspective is flawed in at least two respects that are relevant to this Green Paper.
Firstly, it focuses upon the creation of money, but ignores the creation of debt—and as explained below, non-ADIs can create debt, even though they can’t take deposits. As is now becoming obvious, the level and rate of growth of debt have crucial effects upon the economy.
Secondly, there is ample empirical evidence that the direction of causation in the actual financial system is the reverse of that given by economic textbooks: rather than “Deposits create Loans via the money multiplier”, it appears that “Loans create Deposits”. Therefore, laws that attempt to manage the financial system by regulating only deposit-taking institutions—and thus the deposit half of the financial equation—are bound to fail, if lending remains largely uncontrolled. This is doubly so in the modern era of deregulated finance, when securitisers and other non-deposit-taking institutions are allowed to create debt via selling securitised financial products to the public.
Figure 1 shows just how much debt has risen compared to the money supply in the last half century. The ratio of debt to M3 has risen from 0.5 in the early 1960s to almost 2 now (a similar trend applies when debt is compared to Broad Money).2 Peaks and declines in the ratio bear a strong relation to asset booms and subsequent recessions in the early 1960s, 1974-5 and the mid-1980s-1990s, and the fact that this ratio is once again trending down is could be an ominous forewarning of economic conditions in the near future. Private debt has certainly reached unsustainable levels compared to income. This ratio must fall to restore the economy to eventual financial health, but its unwinding will be associated with a significant drop in aggregate demand.

Figure 2, which shows the ratio of the rates of growth of debt and M3, indicates how little control is exercised over debt by controlling the money supply. Attempting to control the financial system solely by controlling deposits (M3) is rather like trying to control a tiger by holding its tail.

During the period of monetary targetting (as opposed to interest rate targetting), debt grew between as much as 250 percent faster than M3,3 and 30 percent slower. Explosions in the ratio of the rates of growth are also clearly coincident with speculative booms (from the days of Cambridge Credit through to the Internet Bubble), while collapses coincide with busts.
The emphasis upon controlling deposits rather than loans allowed the blowout in debt to occur even when bank lenders dominated the system. However, this lending could have exhausted itself in the 1990s. Non-bank lenders, who were allowed to undertake a much larger role in the Australian scheme by the Wallis Committee’s backing for securitised lending,4 have played a pivotal role in the continuing growth of debt after the 1990s recession.
That non-bank lenders can create debt should be obvious, but “textbook” economic treatments of money creation don’t perceive this, because they focus solely upon the “money multiplier” route to creating debt.
A non-bank lender effectively borrows money from a bank,5 and on-lends that money to borrowers. When it does so, the non-ADI’s account at the bank falls, while the borrower’s account rises—thus no deposits are created. But the borrower now has a debt to the non-ADI. Thus debt has been created, without a balancing creation of deposits.6 This growth of debt has both propelled economic activity in Australia, and now imperils its future.
Of course, debt of itself is not a bad thing—any more than carbon dioxide is of itself “bad”. Without carbon dioxide, the planet’s temperature would be below zero, and life would not be possible. Equally, without debt, the economic system could not function. Debt is necessary to enable consumers to purchase housing and several other long-lived consumer products, and to provide business with both working capital and finance for new investments.
The problem comes when that debt is used, not for consumption smoothing (purchasing an abode, car, etc.) or business turnover or investment purposes, but to finance speculation on asset prices. The former uses are akin to the generation of carbon dioxide by the planet’s endogenous carbon cycle; the last is rather like humanity’s unintentional addition to CO2 levels by the burning of fossil fuels.
Just as we are now learning, via Global Warming, that we have to limit our production of CO2, we must learn that we have to control the financial system’s proclivity to produce debt. If that can be limited to the debt demanded for consumption smoothing and business investment, then the financial system will function well. If that debt is instead driven by speculation on asset prices, we will face the equivalent of Global Warming in our financial system.
That, unfortunately, is how the recent explosion in debt has been used, both domestically, in the USA, and across most of the OECD. Driven by debt-financed speculation, the ratio of asset price to commodity prices has reached levels that have never been seen before. This ratio is the best guide as to whether we are in a bubble or not, and according to it, the current financial bubble is the biggest in human history, dwarfing the Roaring Twenties and even the 1987 Stock Market bubble (See Figure 3).

Also, in contradiction to Alan Greenspan’s oft-expressed view that a bubble could only be identified in its aftermath, the USA Stock Market Bubble obviously began in 1995—note the acceleration in the rate of growth of the CPI-deflated index. By the end of that year it had already overtaken all previous stock market bubbles in scale.
The previous record bubble in the US stock market in 1966 was not accompanied by a bubble in real estate, while the 1920s were in fact a time of below average house prices. Therefore the current bubble, unlike all previous ones, embraces the housing market as well as the stock market. In America, it has driven the housing market from just above its long term average to more than twice this level in a period of under ten years (See Figure 4; 1997 can also be identified, by the acceleration in the CPI-deflated index, as the start of this housing bubble).

The Australian data I have does not go back as far as the American, but even with this more limited data it is obvious that the current stock market bubble dwarfs the 1980s. Even after the recent fall in the index, the ASX is still more overvalued than it was before the crash in October 1987 (See Figure 5).

The Australian housing market is overvalued even with reference to the period since 1986, when prices were already high on a historical basis. Nigel Stapledon’s PhD thesis7 implies that house prices in Australia are of the order of three times the long term average. Even leaving that long term perspective out of the equation, it is obvious that house prices have doubled in real terms in the past decade (See Figure 6).

This has all been on the basis of speculative, debt-financed purchasing—effectively, a Ponzi Scheme. Debt-financed purchasers of housing lose money on the cash flow from their investments—indeed, the peculiarly Australian institution of negative gearing promotes loss-making investments in real estate.
The only way that an individual speculator profits from real estate speculation is by either selling to someone with a higher income—who can therefore afford a higher purchase price—or by selling to another individual with a similar income, who takes on sufficient debt to buy the property at a price that exceeds the speculator’s purchase price plus accumulated net losses from debt servicing. That is a recipe, not just for an asset price bubble, but for exploding debt levels compared to income. Lenders have unwittingly contributed to this Ponzi Scheme, and the focus of regulation upon deposit-taking rather than lending has equally unwittingly allowed this to happen.
Unfortunately, while an individual can escape from an excessive debt servicing burden by selling a property for a profit, the country as a whole cannot do that. The ultimate source of revenue for paying off debt is the sale of commodities and the incomes this generates, and the debt bubble that has built up under the current regulatory regime poses an enormous challenge for future economic policy by driving up the debt to GDP ratio (see Figure 7).

The ratio of debt to GDP gives a simple measure of the debt burden, by showing how many years worth of national income would be needed to eliminate the debt. Though, as noted above, eliminating debt entirely is not desirable, reducing it to a level where it reflects predominantly productive uses of debt is desirable. On the long term data, this implies a reduction in debt from its current level of 1.65 years of GDP, to of the order of half a year of GDP.
A substantial reduction of debt will occur (if not necessarily that absolute scale) because most of the debt accumulated in the last twenty years financed wasteful speculation on asset prices rather than real investment. The vast majority of the increased debt taken on since 1990 was incurred by households (see Figure 8), and most of that borrowing financed not the construction of new housing, but speculation on the price of existing houses.

Since, by the early 2000s, less than 10% of money borrowed for housing finance the construction of new dwellings, 90% of that money was borrowed for the purposes of speculation rather than investment (see Figure 9).

We have now reached the end point of that speculation, when it is simply not possible for future buyers to take on more debt than current “investors” have done.
Therefore existing speculators will start to lose money on their real estate positions, leading to a fall in Australian housing prices and ultimately a fall in the debt to GDP ratio. As that takes hold, spending will also fall precipitously, as the change in debt starts to detract from aggregate spending, rather than supplementing it.
There is evidence that this process has already begun. The growth in the private debt to GDP ratio has slowed noticeably in the last two months, and as a result the contribution that change in debt makes to aggregate demand8 has started to fall (see Figure 10).

This great de-leveraging will pose enormous difficulties for economic policy. It will also make obvious that our current deposit-focused regulatory regime for finance has failed. Clearly, regulating deposit-taking institutions, but not regulating lenders in general, has contributed to the development of the greatest financial crisis since World War II. The regulatory philosophy that largely relied upon lenders to self-regulate has also failed.
Therefore, as difficult as these future times are likely to be, they should also be used to put in place a financial system that discourages speculative lending and borrowing.
Decades ago, Hyman Minsky argued that the role of regulation should be to create “a ‘good financial society’ in which the tendency by businesses and bankers to engage in speculative finance is constrained” (Minsky 1977, 1982: 69). The reform proposed in Option 1.E.2, by proposing that all lenders fall under Commonwealth regulation, is a step in this direction For that reason, I commend it to Parliament.
Appendix One: My supplementary remarks on securitised lending to the Wallis Committee
After an event like the subprime crisis, it is not uncommon to have people argue that it was something that could not have been foreseen. That is nonsense. It takes a particular set of intellectual blinkers not to see the potential that “reforms” such as allowing securitised lending had to lead to an ultimate financial crisis. Unfortunately, conventional economic thinking provided just that set of blinkers, and the Wallis Committee followed conventional economic advice in its recommendations.
I claim no special powers of prescience, but merely the benefit of analysing finance from the point of view of Minsky’s “Financial Instability Hypothesis”—a model of how the finance sector operates that I presented to the Wallis Committee Inquiry in 1996. As a follow up to my verbal submission, I sent a letter to the Committee on December 7th 1996. My comments on securitised lending in that letter accurately predicted the Subprime Crisis (see under point 2 below):
“Mr Stan Wallis,
Chairman,
Financial System Inquiry
Dear Mr Wallis,
Thank you for the opportunity to present my views personally to your Committee yesterday. There were two points on which I was not satisfied with the quality of answers I gave to questions from the Committee, and I am writing this note to attempt to improve upon yesterday’s performance…
(2) The impact of securitisation
The securitisation of debt documents such as residential mortgages does not alter the key issue, which is the ability of borrowers to commit themselves to debt on the basis of “euphoric” expectations during an asset price boom. The ability of such borrowers to repay their debt is dependent upon the maintenance of the boom, and as the share market reactions to yesterday’s comments by Alan Greenspan reminded us, such conditions cannot be maintained indefinitely.
Should a substantial proportion of eligible assets (e.g., residential houses during a real estate boom like that of 87-89) be financed by securitised instruments, the inability of borrowers to pay their debts on a large scale will not, of course, directly affect liquidity in the same fashion that a failure of bank debtors does. Instead, the impact will be felt by those who purchased the securities, or by insurance firms who underwrote the repayment.
- Where this is a government, the impact on liquidity will again be slight, since public debt will replace private.
- Where this is a financial institution, such as a bank, it will be in a very similar situation to the State Bank of Victoria (and many others) after the last real estate crash, with similar consequences.
- Where this is an insurance company, it could be driven into bankruptcy, with an impact on liquidity via its shareholders and its own creditors. However this would not be as serious as the second instance above.
- Where the securities are tradeable, there would obviously be a collapse in the tradeable price, and, potentially, the bankrupting of many of the investors—depending again on their own financing arrangements.
Overall I would agree that direct regulation of securitisers is not warranted. What is needed instead is prudential overview of the extent to which banks, insurance firms and superannuation institutions invest in securitisers and their products. However, I would object strongly to the proposal from Aussie Home Loans (p. 135, paragraph 5.94) that securitisers should be able to call themselves banks.”
As might be expected, the Wallis Committee was substantially more sanguine about the impact of securitisation than I was. Now that events have unfolded and it is obvious the Committee’s relaxed posture towards financial market deregulation was not justified, it is to be hoped that this and future enquiries will be more cogniscant of the need to control the growth of debt.
Appendix Two: The Wallis Committee’s Overview on Securisation
Securitisation
Securitisation refers to the process of issuing marketable securities against an income stream derived from a pool of otherwise illiquid assets. It involves sales of loans or other assets into specially designed trusts which then issue securities directly into the capital market. In Australia, securitisation has become a force in home mortgage finance.
It has also emerged in some other retail markets, such as credit card receivables and motor vehicle loans, although at this stage only on a small scale.
Like disintermediation, securitisation represents the substitution of trade on financial markets for functions traditionally performed via the balance sheet of financial intermediaries. By originating loans and providing recourse to an insurer in the event of default, financial institutions screen loans and enhance their creditworthiness sufficiently for the loans to be traded in open financial markets. The role of the institution is not displaced entirely by this process but it is substantially restricted in scope. In many cases, it is the institutions themselves which are using securitisation as a means of better managing their capital.
The prospects for growth of securitisation will depend on its cost effectiveness relative to balance sheet intermediation. The question also arises as to possible limits to securitisation. At present, securitisation is largely restricted to assets which have very low, even negligible, risk or which represent a homogeneous class on which risk can be statistically estimated and priced. Whether there will be a market for higher risk or less homogeneous assets is unclear. The test will come with assets like loans to small businesses (some mortgage backed lending has recently emerged in this area).
References
Hyman Minsky (1977), “The Financial Instability Hypothesis: an interpretation of Keynes and an alternative to ’standard’ theory”, Nebraska Journal of Economics and Business, reprinted in Minsky 1982, 59-70.
Hyman Minsky (1982), Inflation, Recession and Economic Policy, Wheatsheaf, Sussex.






June 30th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Hi Steve!
I remembered that you said before that even under a 100%-reserve gold standard, banks can still create credit ‘endogenously.’ I haven’t heard your answer to that question, but can I venture a guess that the answer lies in securitisation?
June 30th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Contrarian, if I understand your question correctly, creation of debt is easy. If someone borrows $20,000 from the bank and gives it to me, say as an excessive payment on real estate, then I put it in the bank, it will be there tomorrow for the process to repeat. Repeat it enough times and the end result is a lot of debt.
The need for the bank to keep capital reserves does restrict it slightly, so it can’t lend the full $20,000 each time and it does need security which is where appreciating asset values come in. What securitisation changes is it removes the need for capital reserves.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
No, that’s not what I meant. The example you gave is fractional reserve banking system. The context of my question is 100% (i.e. all loans are to be backed up 100% by savings) reserve system under a gold standard.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:46 am
Hi Steve, Have you read the BIS Annual Report yet?
“What has been happening: an explanation
Many academics have theorised about the underlying causes of the recurrent periods of stress which have scarred the financial landscape for centuries.
Hyman Minsky’s work in the 1970s seems of particular relevance to current circumstances. He warned that a continuous worsening of credit standards over the years would eventually culminate in a moment of recognition and recoil (what others have since dubbed “a Minsky moment”), when market liquidity would dry up. For Minsky, however, the liquidity crisis was only a symptom of the underlying credit problem, reflecting the reality that market liquidity is always crucially dependent on the continued availability of funding liquidity.”
And:
“On the one hand, it is not impossible that the unwinding of the credit bubble could, after a temporary period of higher inflation, culminate in a deflation that might be hard to manage, all the more so given high initial nominal debt levels.”
And so on:
http://www.bis.org/publ/arpdf/ar2008e.htm
July 1st, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Hello Steve,
This circulating money via bank borrowing seems to have a parallel in the securitising phenomenon. Once a “security” has been created by lending to possibly risky debtors with risky mortgage coverage it can be be sold to on an “investor” and then the cash in available for the securitizer to create yet another such junk security and so on.
In engineering we would call this a parasitic positive feedback loop and every effort would be made to eliminate it of compensate for its affects, no question. To leave something like this in a system would result in one or other form of oscillation.
As I see it as an engineer if we want a stable economic system we must prohibit or severely regulate this action.
Is my argument flawed?
July 1st, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Contrarian, under my model all loans are backed by savings. Try it with a pen and paper and see what happens. It seems to require that borrowers give their money away but buying overpriced real estate is a good explanation. I assume Steve will be back shortly to correct or otherwise our errors.
BrightSpark I’m originally an engineer and had exactly the same idea. Thermal runaway might be an even better analogy. The technical term I think most engineers would use for our financial system is “really stupid” if they were being polite.
July 2nd, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Hi Ken!
No, that’s not true. That’s fractional reserve banking (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve for what fractional reserve banking is). Under your model, that is 0% fractional reserve banking. This means the theoretical upper limit on the total credit creation in the economy is infinity.
That’s completely different from 100% no-reserve banking.
July 2nd, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Hi Ken!
And also, take a read at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-reserve_banking
July 2nd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Hi Ken!
Take a read at “Full reserve banking” at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-reserve_banking
July 2nd, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Sorry, when I said “100% no-reserve banking”, I meant 100% full-reserve banking. Also, when I said “all loans are to be backed up 100% by savings” in the previous comment, I meant “all deposits are to be backed up by reserve.”
Under a 100% full-reserve banking, all deposits can NOT be lent out anymore. Banks then become a middle-man between creditors and borrowers and cannot create credit out of thin air.
July 3rd, 2008 at 11:23 am
Can anyone explain why the asset price to commodity price ratio is the bes tindicator of an asset price bubble? Seems to me there could be many reasons why this ratio might change independant of debt speculation
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Great thought BrightSpark, as much as engineering might be taboo to some in economics, further analyzing and working our economies as complex control systems, and not just random unpredictable responses of markets to be tinkered with to maintain stability. One wonders what system we would have if market activities where analysed in proven control system application methodology identifying and eliminating such things as ‘parasitic positive feedback loops’ long before they created whole system harm and collapse. Who knows what a super smart, control systems engineer and economist, together might come up with. Of course, this might be impossible, as we are all part of this system with varying power and vested interests and so independent analysis let alone impartial and effective control would be difficult, but still who knows what value such an approach could have.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Contrarian, thanks for the links.
I don’t think full-reserve fixes any problems. Under this system a bank operates to retail debt and credit from a central bank, unless you are prepared to accept no interest on deposits. This still leaves the central bank with the decision on how much to expand debt and there is no guarantee they could make a better decision than now. My impression is they could do it quite well with the current system just by controlling interest rates, over to Steve ?
My other discovery for the day is the Sydney real estate market seems to be getting close to collapse. The smart money is getting out and most of the potential buyers are people who arrived in Australia after the 90’s recession and so haven’t worked out the plot.
July 6th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Hi Ken!
Under the full-reserve banking, there is no central bank. Consequently, there is no monetary policy. As a result, interest rates are determined by the free market i.e. driven by the supply and demand for credit of the free market.
Think about it this way. We all agree that the free market is the best way of doing things. We let the free market decide the price of shoes, oil, rice, potatoes, computers, etc (at least true in theory). Then why is it that when it comes to the price of money (interest rates), we assign a central authority to engage in price fixing? We all know that centralised price fixing will not work as we can all see the example of the command-style economy under communism. Then why is it that on one hand, we believe in centralised price fixing for money and yet on the other hand, believe in the free market for others?
July 7th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Hello Ken and Contrarian
I hope you do not mind comments from an engineer.
“Then why is it that on one hand, we believe in centralised price fixing for money and yet on the other hand, believe in the free market for others?”
1. Any uncontrolled system is doomed to eventual failure with the longer the period of no control the bigger the crash.
2. Reserve banking controls were introduced to moderate the banks’ ability to create credit and debt levels by creating negotiable instruments (bank bills).
3. The credit retailers have been increasing credit by creating mortgage instruments and doing this with no controls applied by governments. They have been acting as banks and by introducing the concept of “subprime” or “no doc” (as euphemisms for “junk”) introducing bad lending practices and passing on the risk.
4. Much of the available credit comes from our 35 year run of current account deficits. This is now enabling the Communist Chinese controlled market economy (not command-style) to overwhelm the uncontrolled “free market” western economies. The Communists are now able to buy up (nationalise) stock and public assets in western countries.
Summary, no controlls must result in an inevitable crash.
July 7th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Hi BrightSpark!
Some thoughts here…. this discussion is getting more philosophical…
If the “system” you are referring to is the economy, then I have doubts that anyone or any institution can have the ability to control it.
In engineering, the problem can be confined to a closed-ended system whereby the parameters and ‘rules’ are defined and known. But the economy, (and by extension, the global political/economic/social system) is an open-ended system whereby the rules and parameters cannot be fully defined and known. As such, there will be Black Swans and unknown unknowns lying outside the realm of human knowledge and consciousness.
As Steve Keen said, the RBA do not know what it is doing. Even if engineering methodology is transplanted to economics, I doubt anyone or institution can know and understand fully on what is going on.
In an open-ended system, control only works if the controller is all-knowing, all-powerful and completely benevolent. Otherwise, I don’t see how a ‘controlled’ system can work either.
In a sense, economics can be like quantum physics. The fact that the subjects and actors of the economic problem knows that they are observed/controlled will result in them changing behaviour to ‘game’ the open-ended system. This makes the level of control even more untenable.
For your information, unlike the US, Australia does not have a formal reserve requirement.
The worry is, if we let the government control more and more of the system, we will end up with a larger and larger bureaucracy. The larger the bureaucracy is, the heavier, inflexible and more massive the slug will be. And we doubt even the bureaucracy can fully know what is going on.
I doubt the Chinese government is really in ‘control’ of their market economy. They may have control of political processes, but that does not mean their market economy is wrapped up under the fingers of the Communist Party. In that case, I doubt the Communist Party can even control the Western economies.
July 7th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Contrarian I find that the benefits of full-reserve banking a bit dubious. Banks can’t lend out deposits unless it is to someone who gives a guaranteed immediate return which only seems to be the government. Similarly the only source of funds for loans is equity or the government. I’m certain that equity could build up in the same way as debt, that is without limit so the same problems remain.
Brightspark, the current account is simply the external flows of money. It reflects that about a third of the debt is foreign but there is still a lot of debt that is local. Like most things it continues because it is popular although it is not a good long-term strategy. Australian voters don’t seem to like the idea of using the surplus to build foreign currency reserves. America’s trade deficit doesn’t seem to be an issue.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:21 am
Nice points BrightSpark.
Contrarian said: “We all agree that the free market is the best way of doing things. We let the free market decide the price of shoes, oil, rice, potatoes, computers, etc (at least true in theory).”
Well yes in theory, but what about the real world? Minsky pointed out that the simplistic ‘Law of Demand & Supply’ (the so-called ‘neoclassical sythesis’)is indeed good in theory, the problem is the restricted conditions under which that ‘law’ holds. These include that the ‘world’ so described by the theory is one without either money or time, essential factors one would think in trying to understand an economy in which finance is central. As Minsky stated “the neoclassical sythesis became the economics of captialism without capitalists, capital assets, and financial markets’.
Minsky concluded that while the law of demand and supply may be reasonably relied on in relatively stable markets such as simple household consumables, such reliance in circumstances of longer scale capital intensive investment that requires debt finance and uncertain time horizons for the return on investment, will inevitably lead to instability.
As BrightSpark points out that is the very reason why central banking came about, because of the socially untenable effects of the laissez-faire approach to credit creation. A lesson, unfortunately, we collectively appear to be about to be forced to re-learn.
Alas I feel that ‘central-bank bashing’ over the current crisis that comes in the form of ‘that’s another example of the failures of government’ (aka Hayek-style) rather than central-bank bashing that sees it as a result of central banking that left market regulation to the market only muddies the water on our collective capacity to re-learn this crucial lesson.
July 8th, 2008 at 2:18 am
Hi Steve,
Do you have a long term chart for household debt repayments (not debt outstanding) versus household income? I thought this might provide an even clearer picture of how stretched households are compared to looking at total private debt to GDP.
Cheers
Tony
July 8th, 2008 at 8:16 am
Hi Ken!
No, that’s not how it works.
Firstly, it is the at-call demand deposits that cannot be lent out.
Secondly, the ones that can be lent out does not mean the borrower has to return on demand.
Thirdly, there is not such thing as a guaranteed return for loans. Lending is always subject to credit risk as in today. The difference is that there is competitive banking for which it means that there is no central bank to bail out the banks if they make idiotic loans. This means there will be no moral hazards. As Jimmy Rogers said in Jimmy Rogers: ‘Abolish the Fed’, without the central bank,
July 8th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Hello Contrarian and Ken
Many thanks for your comments.
Contrarian
Point 1 the control system.
Consider this. If you find the planet Mars in the night sky it is just a point of light to the naked eye. It is about 65,000,000 Kilometres
away at its nearest point and moving at 160,000 Kilometres per hour and yet by correct use of control system engineering we have gently
landed robot spacecraft at a precise latitude and longitude. The latest of these is now communicating back to earth and exploring the
planet.
For This whole journey the parameters were not fully known (open-ended) but the control systems were able to handle this.
Take a more simple example an automobiles’ fuel and ignition system. Early examples were carburettors which tried to anticipate the effect of known parameters for example air pressure air temperature etc but they never got it right and performance was never optimum. Now when you start a modern car the same applies but when it warms up an oxygen sensor in the exhaust is able to give the efi computer information
about the performance which includes the effects of perturbations of unknown origin and the computer continually adjusts the fuel air
mixture to get near perfect combustion. We call this a closed loop control system and there are more than one of these in a car. The closing of the loop takes care of the white swans and the unknown unknowns just how well it can do this is a design parameter. This feedback used is negative because it negates the errors.
The importance is not the open/closed end end but the open/closed loop.
The complexity of the journey dwarfs the complexity of world economy. Economists theorise about incidental closed loop systems (eg “principal of comparative advantage” and “invisible hand of the market”) but never design them. They also recommend leaving positive feedback loops in place and these add to the errors.
This control engineering theory was developed eighty years ago but it has taken the development of the microcomputer to enable the control of high speed systems. V2 rockets in WW2 were closed loop controlled.
Point 2 Reserve banking
I think that there should be a definite reserve requirement to moderate a nasty positive feedback loop.
Point 3 creation of junk securities by pseudo banks.
The control here would be laws which would be enforced in the usual way. Your aversion to government control is curious. I would not like
to hold shares in a company which had little or no control over how internal departments interacted with each other and with outside bodies. Such a company may not need a CEO but the result would be failure. In the same way governments must manage and control to maximise the common wealth of the country.
Point 5 Chinese government control.
There is no doubt that they control the exchange rate, wages, foreign investment, and even the movement of people. Control of the west will happen When western corporations become majority owned by the Chinese Government Corporations. Politbureau members will then be appointed to the boards and as CEOs.
Ken
The Current account.
I do not believe it is so simple. Money does not flow simply across the foreign exchange barrier and the resistance to flow is different for the two directions.
This is dictated by our ability to sell sufficient goods and services to the rest of the world to cover the cost of our import of goods and services. Even in a mining boom we are running a CAD of about $A80,000,000,000 per year.
The fiscal surplus could not be used to pay off foreign debt let alone build up foreign currency reserves because to do this we would need to have current account surpluses. We have not had any of these for even one single quarter since 1975.
The US CAD is fast becoming a problem as
foreign investors no longer see the USD as a good investment and nobody offshore will buy their “sub-prime” junk securities.
We cover the CAD by selling assets and borrowing. We are running out of assets to sell and when this happens this debt ratio will increase from one third. That is if the crash does not happen first. Right now the interest on this debt is largely being paid by home owners and the liquidity caused by this has contributed to people paying too much for the houses.
I believe that the cad and debt should be controlled by a simple negative feedback loops which would forces the CAD or CAS to zero and the debt level to one which would minimise inflation.
July 8th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Hi BrightSpark!
This is the point I disagree. The economy is not a ‘thing’ that exist in isolation from the rest of humanity. Within/beneath/embeded with it lies human relationships, political system, psychology, social norms, culture, rules/regulations. Plus the interactivity of humans with the environment, geology, etc. And more importantly, humans have free-will and intellect to game the system that is constructed by other humans. The problem is approaching the complexity of chaos theory and quantum physics than just simply engineering problem.
As Steve Keen used an analogy in one of his podcast, economists often think of the economy like a car where there are levers and buttons that they can use to control. No, a better analogy is the rainforests where you have a complex ecosystem on it. You take out one tiny species and the outcome turn out to be unpredictable. Indeed, the idea of borrowing engineering/scientific methodology into economics is a very old idea that began several decades ago.
I recommend that you read the book, “Fooled by Randomness” and “The Black Swan” by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. In the engineering problem that you used, data that fed into the computer are mostly relevant and timely. But in the real world eco-system, the vast majority of data are noise. And worse still, it is often not possible to distinguish between noise and information. Unless we can get past this step, there is no way we can proceed to the next step of perfect control.
Well, the US has a reserve requirement of 10%. But that does not stop the emergence of the credit bubble.
There are already plenty of laws around. And people will find ways to circumvent the laws and game the system as it is already happening right now. If we react by setting up more even more laws, we are on the way towards a Big Brother society.
My point here is not about the choice of control or no control. The point is **WHO** do you want to be the one to control: the free market or Big Brother? Control by the free market does not always mean anarchy or chaos. A good example of free market control is the Internet which all of us are using right now. Of course, I’m not advocating everything to be given to the free market’s control. What I’m advocating is to let the government control as little as possible (i.e. small government). In the end, how much does the government know to do a good job of controlling and not stuff up big time?
Communism tried the same idea of control and the outcome is history. Hugo Chavez has have the same idea. Do you think you want our country to go along the same path of past mistakes?
That’s just about it they control. Can the Communist Party control human motivations of greed and fear, expressed via the still deflating stock and property market bubble? Or that they are able to ‘control’ inflation? Or control the domestic price of oil? Yes, the Chinese recently tried price controls on oil and it’s no secret what happened next.
Have you heard of what “nationalization” is? Or what’s happenning in Russia? Or Venezuela? Or Zimbabwe.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Driving the surplus up will work but not in a nice way but there isn’t a nice way. Dragging money out of the economy will eventually slow it down, and people will reduce borrowing probably because they wont have jobs. This is the not nice part. As well, the slowing economy will result in lower interest rates and no one would want to send there money here. I’d much rather a method that spread the reduction in affluence around but lowering wages is not very popular.
While the government wont be paying off the debt it can still reduce the increase by converting Australian dollars into foreign reserves. This nicely forces the dollar down as well. It was what the previous government was doing in the late nineties (actually they were paying off public foreign debt) and at least foreign debt was stabilised as a proportion of GDP.
I assume it will fix itself in the traditional way. Investing money in Australia will become a very bad idea and we will have to work out how to deal with it. I see unemployed people.
July 9th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Hi Contrarian
We are really getting philosophical now many thanks.
I will try to find that book.
“In the engineering problem that you used, data that fed into the computer are mostly relevant and timely. But in the real world eco-system, the vast majority of data are noise.”
I only mentioned the EFI control as a very simple example of engineering control techniques to illustrate the concept of the negative feedback loop.
The timeliness of information is also quite relevant. There is also the question whether or not the data, which would form part of a feedback loop is sampled at sufficient rate to ensure accuracy.
Noise
Noise is well understood. It can be quantified using several techniques and its effects mitigated. These techniques include (engineering) bandwidth reduction and auto correlation. I think that economists have actually borrowed this meaning of the word from engineering. The point at which information is not retrievable can also be determined using engineering calculations
Timeliness
This is most important because delay can turn negative into positive feedback and make a system unstable. Again engineering can take care of this but the mathematics involved is very complex and I would not like to try to explain it here.
Aliasing
You did not mention this one but it is not apparent. Very false patterns emerge if a parameter is sampled at a rate much less than the rate at which the parameter is changing. I have seen this in various graphs produced by economists and statisticians.
All of these effects combine to create the difficulty you describe in distinguishing between noise and information. Engineering techniques can take all of these into account.
When it comes to natural systems such as the rain forests you mention there are many natural feedback control loops which do stabilise the system.
In many engineering systems these problems occur but the aim is adequacy. Control is never perfect. The EFI system is an example of a closed loop system, it is not perfect but adequate and stable.
Steve’s point on the car analogy is a good one. Economists are trying to drive the economy as one would drive a car while in fact they really modifying the structure.
Engineers design and modify systems surely the techniques used in engineering are applicable. I am sure that this could ensure stability.
“Well, the US has a reserve requirement of 10%. But that does not stop the emergence of the credit bubble.”
Yes but they do not use their powers as part of a negative control loop.
“There are already plenty of laws around. And people will find ways to circumvent the laws and game the system as it is already happening right now. If we react by setting up more even more laws, we are on the way towards a Big Brother society.”
You seem to be suggesting anarchy.
“My point here is not about the choice of control or no control. The point is **WHO** do you want to be the one to control:”
Good point and there seems to be three choices.
1. An elected government which may or may not include nepotism and jobs for the girls and boys.
2. Company Boards elected by shareholders which may also include nepotism and which disenfranchises most of the population.
3. If we continue with non ending CAD’s, foreigners which could include the Chinese communist politbureau.
I vote for number 1 to control the stability and number 2 for everything else with the nepotism outlawed.
Our current path is leading to number 3
“Communism tried the same idea of control and the outcome is history. Hugo Chavez has have the same idea. Do you think you want our country to go along the same path of past mistakes?”
No and I never suggested it. But beware of the Chinese communists their brand is not quite so flawed. And they will buy us out!
“Yes, the Chinese recently tried price controls on oil and it’s no secret what happened next.”
They have also had many successes in other areas they have been more successful that the west. This, even using our own criterion of GDP growth.
“Have you heard of what “nationalization” is? Or what’s happenning in Russia? Or Venezuela? Or Zimbabwe.”
Oh yes I have and I do not want it to happen here. Particularly when it will be under the control of not our own but foreign governments.
I am *** WARNING*** that unless we get control such a takeover is inevitable!
This debt “bubble” is a very dangerous trap.
Hello Ken
One comment.
“I see unemployed people.”
I see a lot too but the ABS has hidden them by redefining the term “unemployed”.
July 9th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Hi Brightspark!
First of all, thanks for your discussion and comments. I hope our discussion can help to sharpen our thinking. Here are some more of my thoughts as I think through what we were discussing.
BTW, this rain forests analogy that I mention comes from Steve Keen’s podcast.
This sounds very similar to neo-classifical economists. In neo-classical economics, it is clear that all economic models are not realistic. But their rationale is that, as long as the models can ‘predict’ it doesn’t matter whether the economics models are realistic are not.
For engineering problem, this is okay. It is good enough to send us to Mars or the Moon. But in economics, it so turned out to be a farce.
No, this is completely untrue. If this is true, than democratic countries like Australia is ‘anarchy’ relative to totalitarian countries like North Korea.
This is the reality of what is frequently happening today. Setting up more and more laws, regulations is one thing. Enforcing them and making them effective is another cost to society. In ancient China, under the Qin dynasty, they follow an extreme and ended up with legalism. The following Han dynasty, abolished much of the Qin dynasty’s legalism. Did anarchy reign after legalism was abolished? No.
China is a complex country. If you know people from there personally, you will realise that what you see outwardly is not what you get inwardly. In any case, China’s success is not because of the government’s control. On the contrary, the rise of China begins in 1978 AFTER the death of Mao Zedong and liberalisation of the Chinese economy.
No, I’m referring about the nationalisation of our country’s strategic companies if they ever get to the stage of being controlled by the Chinese government.
Adopting some of the engineering methodology into economics may be a good idea, but it is a big mistake to go to the other extreme and treat the entire economy as if it is an engineering problem. I’m not sure whether, you’re going towards that extreme, hopefully not. The two main reasons are:
Firstly, in engineering, the principal objects of manipulations are dead physical things- atoms, particles, materials, etc. But when it comes to economics (which can seen as a subset of the human-nature ecosystem), the objects are real life humans who have free will, intellect, emotions, spirit, beliefs and so on. Humans can react unpredictably and can even circumvent systems designed by other humans. They can even band together to oppose the controls you have set up. For example, you set up legal system and there will be people who will try to game the system. Such unpredictability leads to unpredictable side-effects, which means it is almost impossible to identify where all the feedback loops are until after the event has happened. This flows on to the second point.
Secondly, in science, experiments are repeatable. In an engineering project from start to finish, you can have much iteration and sub-iterations of the many process and sub-process involved. For example, if you design a component and if it fails, you can always redo from start and produce a second version of it. Or you can replace a sub-component and so on. This is not so for the human-ecosystem. Time in this case travels only in one direction. Once gone, you can never come back. If your economic/social experiment fails, you stuff up millions of life and there is no turning back. You cannot go back in time to re-engineer your economic system. You canÕt travel back to the past and try a different decision to see the alternative path of history. You can try using mental imagination or use a computer to produce a Monte Carlo simulation, but that is just about it you can do. Consequences are permanent, you can never change it and Òwhat-ifsÓ are at best educated guesses.
Several decades, there was a movement in economics to elevate it to the level of sciences. But economics (as I mentioned before in the second point), is fundamentally different to the physical sciences. So, one way to ‘circumvent’ this problem is to use statistical data of the past as a proxy to the repeatable experiments of the hard sciences. This, according to the Austrian School of economic thought, is an error in methodology. As I quoted Wilhelm Ršpk in Why is the market so easily tossed and turned by dribs and drabs of data?,
In other words, the movement into replacing deductive reasoning completely with statistical/empircal methods took place several decades ago till today. That’s the problem with modern economics, which I suspect Steve Keen has a problem with too. That’s how we get a lot of nonsense from modern economists.
To explain my point further, consider this metaphor. Suppose an idiot have a habit of lying on the road. We can ‘predict’ that one day, he will eventually be run over by a car. Three days gone by and nothing happened. But on the forth day, he got run over by a car. Officially, the investigation shows that the cause of death is being run over by a car. As a response, the government decides to increase regulation by stipulating that all cars must install cameras, detectors and alarms on the front to detect and warn drivers of any live obstacles on the road. With this new regulation, comes the additional cost of enforcement, prosecution, spot checks on the part of the government. On the part of the drivers, they have to spend money to install these new devices on their cars. Then there’s new regulation that stipulates that all citizens be educated about not lying on the road. Now, this regulation involves the cost of teaching, pamphlets and time on the part of teachers and citizens.
So, why not let idiots who lie on the road die for their own stupidity?
July 9th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
“I see unemployed people” was a play on the quote from the film Sixth Sense of “I see dead people”. I will try to be less obscure. It was a comment on the fact that the result of our economy correcting will be lots of unemployment but it never seems to dawn on people that it is the eventual consequence of the way our economy is run.
The actual unemployment rate is interesting. Should be about 2-3% added for those on disability support who would more appropriately described as unemployed. There is another 5% who are underemployed, that is working but really not enough for a living.
July 9th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Wow!
It appears my blog has reached “critical mass”–this is quite a conversation you all have going.
I’m afraid it will still be a while before I can post my own reflections to all this–I am still travelling in Europe and making conference presentations, and that is taking all my time. But I have a lot to say on what has been posted here, and will do so I hope in the week on July 18-25.
All the best and keep up the exchanges!
July 10th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Hello Contrarian, Ken and Steve
This is getting deep many thanks for you comments I’m sure that our thinking is sharpening up. Here is my next effort.
“This sounds very similar to neo-classifical economists. In neo-classical economics, it is clear that all economic models are not realistic.”
Not at all, the amount by which the performance of the machine is deemed adequate is a design requirement. For example for the EFI system the air fuel mixture may be required to be “within +2% and –1% of stoichemetric for 95% of the time”. This is usually determined by cost benefit analysis.
Neo-classical economists appear to be using well and truly outdated mathematical methodology dating from the days of their prophet (Adam Smith 1723-1790) and even earlier. The mathematics that they use enabled scientists to design primitive steam engines and no more. Engineering has moved a long way in the last 250 years. Yes they are 250 years out of date. Their unrealistic model that can predict behaviour belong in the realms of witches and psychics.
It was the 1750 engineering methodology recently applied to economics which turned out to be a farce. Nobody seems to have applied or even considered applying 21st century engineering methodology. Remember it was 2004 technology which sent the spacecraft to mars.
We must have laws to stop events like economic recessions and depressions on the macro scale and the exploitation of individuals on the micro scale. If we can’t do this we do have anarchy. This does not mean that the only way to achieve this is by having a totalitarian government. Perhaps we need fewer laws, ones which are easily understood and enforced and which are much more effective.
“Adopting some of the engineering methodology into economics may be a good idea, but it is a big mistake to go to the other extreme and treat the entire economy as if it is an engineering problem. I’m not sure whether, you’re going towards that extreme, hopefully not. The two main reasons are:”
The economy is definitely not an engineering problem, and I am not suggesting that but engineering methodology has a lot to offer both in assessing data and determining ways to stabilise the world economy. So far the neoclassical economists have ignored this. Surprisingly their prophet was very much up to date with the technology of his time the eighteenth century as indicated by his work the “Wealth of Nations”.
Engineers do have some experience in dealing with the foibles of human nature and not just “dead physical things” some good some bad. Examples are; poker machines, gambling systems, computer desktop operating systems, user interfaces on various vending machines, medical prosthetics such as cochlear implants and limbs, aircraft controls and safety systems, navigation systems, and entertainment systems. Also if engineers design something that is not acceptable to people it does not sell (is rejected by the market).
“Secondly, in science, experiments are repeatable. In an engineering project from start to finish, you can have much iteration and sub-iterations of the many process and sub-process involved.”
Your second point relates to another branch of engineering, implementation, reliability and maintainability all of which relate to quality. Engineers can stuff up in a big way here, for example the Titanic and some air crashes to which some blame can be attached to engineering design. These are not reversible. We have methodology to apply to this too and this minimises but does not eliminate the risks that you refer to. Much of this methodology is attributable to one Edward Demming, an American who’s work was rapidly adopted in Japan but not so quickly in the west. The main features are;
Changes should be small and determined to maximise benefit,
Changes should designed and applied so that they are reversible,
Effects should be closely monitored and if failure becomes evident reversed.
Design and implement the next change in the same was and so on.
This approach gives much scope to the use of deductive reasoning. The statistical/ empirical approach is just another tool. Deductive reasoning is also an engineering tool.
In summary avoid the bull at the gate implementation technique commonly recommended by economists and implemented by polititians. This approach seems to employ no deductive reasoning.
“So, one way to ‘circumvent’ this problem is to use statistical data of the past as a proxy to the repeatable experiments of the hard sciences. This, according to the Austrian School of economic thought, is an error in methodology. As I quoted Wilhelm Ršpk in Why is the market so easily tossed and turned by dribs and drabs of data?,”
This is not part of the engineering approach as I stated above, changes should be small and reversible. The market is tossed by minutia because speculators use erroneous methods which include extrapolation and primitive tools such as “charting”. This places the market into the realm of gambling, game theory may be applicable but although some engineers work with this I do not.
“It was indeed an ingenious idea to apply the principle of nautical astronomy to economic forecasting, but there was one fatal flaw. For as long as we have not made a thorough investigation into the causal relationships.”
We must investigate and understand causal relationships and this is a vital part on control engineering (using the 21st century tools).
“So, why not let idiots who lie on the road die for their own stupidity?”
Why not, indeed.
But we are not only considering idiots we are talking about ordinary people who hope and trust that the government can ensure a modest levels of prosperity. Also they do not choose to lie on the road but a bad system may force them to do so.
Hello Steve
I am looking forward to your comments, all the best with your travels.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:19 am
If I could just add one point, it would be that neo-classical economic modeling can in many ways be be characterised by a lack of real world data being used to create the models. It is part of the neo-classical mythology that economists are sufficiently rational that they dont need to include real-world data in their models—their thinking alone is sufficienly rational to deduce behavior (There are quotes from Milton Freedman to this effect). This is clearly not at all useful way to model anything if you want results that match the real world. It really does not matter if you consider the economy to be rainforest-like or engine-like—if you never see out data that can actually permit you to describe the behavior of the system, you have no chance of modelling it.
I highly recommend the book Economia by the geodynamicist Geoff Davies (ABC Books). Geoff provides his own opinion on what sort of system the economy may represent based on a career of successfully modelling complex geodynamic systems in which there are many unknowns. He provides an ancedote suggeting that less than 50% of all journal articles appearing in the American Journal of Economics include any real data! I think I can extend the analogy further by suggesting that much of the data that is collected and used by economists may not be relevant to the job at hand ie reliance on GDP.
In summary I think I would agree with BrightSpark that it may be a little premature to suggest that an engineering approach will be unsuccessful because it is too like neoclassical economics, I see the main difference as being that an engineering model will require collection of real world data to determine whether it is actually performing ie, real world data was collected on power output etc to demonstrate that efi works better than carburettors. Neoclassical economics does not think this last step is required, and is thus largely worthless. The engineering approach may be run into problems trying to develop the model. It is not easy to see how you can investigate variables in a systematic, experimental manner in the economy? ie how do you keep all bar one variable constant so you can systematically vary the remaining variable to determine its effect on the system in an economy? This may be where the rainforest analogy finally wins out—rainforests are hard to grow in labs. That said, you cannot make a physical model of mantle convection in the lab, buy you can attempt numerical simulation…
I apologise for any overgeneralisations involved in making this point.
July 11th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Hi BrightSpark & wycx!
Yes, exactly! That’s what I agree and was trying to get into. There should not be more laws, rules and regulation than is absolutely necessary. That’s the idea of small govenment (not to be confused with no government).
This is where engineering methodology is hardest to apply in economics and the social sciences. Some economic changes are irreversible. Some are reversible at extremely high costs. Some involves costs that are not tangible. Ideally, in a perfect world, every changes ought to be reversible.
I’m not sure whether laws can actually prevent recessions and other economic mishaps. In fact, I believe no powers under heaven (be it laws or free market) can prevent economic mishaps from happening outright. The best we can do is to smooth them out, e.g. deflate budding credit bubbles long before they have the chance to grow to such a grotesque size that deflation is unthinkable.
And on the exploitation of individuals on the micro scale, that’s why some libertarians prefer the free market approach because of their distrust of laws and governments to work to the benefit of individuals.
Given the choice between (1) letting the free ‘market’ or (2) enacting laws to achieve the same aims, I guess the choice (1) would be more ideal, if possible. The problem is, sometimes to take on choice (1), we may need to engage in creative destruction and overhauling of the status quo. That leaves choice (2) to be the path of least resistance, which makes it hardly surprising to be the most palatable choice. That’s the problem with economics and social sciences- changes are not that easily reversible after having been devloped and entrenched into the system for so long.
That will require a free market right?
July 11th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
“So, why not let idiots who lie on the road die for their own stupidity?”
This is disturbing as “indeed” is its agreement. Perhaps there is little hope of anything but veiled self interest ever driving our futures and likely interests not seen nor considered by economic or engineering awareness. What is the “road” and what “lying on it” might be viewed very differently by ones perspective and hence if this is the idealised value, we may well find it us left to die.
July 11th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Hi whatif!
You’ve brought a very important. Here, I’m venturing outside my area of competence. Hence, I’m speaking from a lay-person’s perspective.
I agree that self-interests is the driving force for humanity (yet at the same time, humans are complex creatures with different shades of good and bad). Since we cannot prevent it, the next best solution is to find work-arounds to this disturbing state of affairs. Self-interest is at its greatest danger when an entities (e.g. person, institution, business, etc) have concentrated power, be it political, market (e.g. monopolies), economic or social power.
The reason why I prefer markets to be as free as possible is that through competition, it is harder for any single entity to come to such a position of power. The Government, at the end of the day, is still a human institution, and therefore, is not exempted from self-interests (governments can also be co-opted by other self-interest groups). Thus, small government is better than a large government for this reason Note: do not confuse small governments with no government/anarchy- we still need a government, no doubt. This is the idea of democracy.
But on the other hand, competitions will inevitably lead to casulties (e.g. that idiot lying on the road). What can we do to help those casulties of competition in the free market? I like the what Gene Callahan said in his book, “Economics for Real People- An Introduction to the Austrian School”:
In other words, the free market is amoral (not to be confused with immoral). Getting the government involved in values (e.g. helping the idiots in this case) impose major costs to the rest of society with perhaps at most some marginal benefits. This is because governments, by its very nature, has only one tool at its disposal- coercion. Coercion cannot bring about adherence to values because you cannot legislate morality. Perhaps that’s why any government departments involved with charity can end up as some dysfunctional bureaucratic organisation (e.g. NSW DOCS).
So, what should we do to help those casulties?
Rather than approaching this problem from the top-down (i.e. government), I believe it should tackled from the bottom-up e.g. churches, grassroots organisations, volunteers, social groups, NGO, etc. All these will be reflected by society’s values.
July 12th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Hi Contrarian,
Thank you for your discussion and bright Spark for his ideas. A few thoughts here:
Ones solutions are unlikely to be larger then the boundaries of our thinking. I cannot agree with Gene Callahan and I believe it is a false and misleading dichotomy to think economics can “quite properly, leave comparing values to ethics, religion, and philosophy”. I consider he unavoidably proves himself in error in those few word for he is placing a value and ethical position if not also a religious (in a broad sence) and philosophical one and economists should always not deny but rather consider what “ethics, religion, and philosophy” values are driving their view point. Economics roots, I have heard it said, lye in sociology and it might be valuable to reflect on that.
I also do not I think it correct to consider the market amoral. The market is driven constantly by moral value judgments, and consequences and the perceived idiot may well be a product and casualty of the market. We are seeing dramatic causalities if not dysfunction of the free market at this very time in the US and globally which are imposing “much larger major costs to the rest of society” than any perceived dysfunctional individual idiot. I would liken the current market model not to the harmony of a rainforest with all its feel good value judgment but a volcano who’s credit larva has been building and building and building potentially for 80 years and now the sealing crust, the credit created illusion of prosperity might be, al the least, fracturing.
I also do not agree that self interest is the principal motivator of human behaviour and perhaps Maslow’s hierarchy of needs may be considered here if not some hints to better solutions motivated by humans highest perceived state “self-actualisation”.
Learning from the past should not be confused with learning or applying antiquated theories from the past that were possibly the best thinking for that time (with historical value) but actually analysing and interpreting historical facts to refine our models for now and the future. Change is inevitable and yes actions have consequences but so do no actions. The idealizing of the market as amoral and free acting has consequences also. The markets does have a dominant value and you identified this as “self interest”, it is not free therefore but acts on this, if not is “coerced” by those who hold the most financial power, which is likely those, it seems, who have had access to the greatest and cheapest credit. There is nothing symbiotic about it and it is not amoral but moralises to the interest of those with the dominant power (their rights by greater – illusionary -money are more important). I disagree and am surprised with BrightSpark’s causal conclusion that “the market is tossed by minutia because speculators use erroneous methods which include extrapolation and primitive tools such as “charting”. It contradicts his (BrightSpark apology for third person here) control system hypothesis (in applying to economic application) of the inevitable instability of an uncontrolled system. I think we would do better to explore if these fluctuations are created by the system instability and that the chartist far from primitive is identifying these patterns of instability. It might actually be better to do what engineers do and analyse those charts looking for tell tail patterns of system instability and far from black swans look for identifiable patterns of predictable consequence of such system instability that might further our understanding (not to say Black Swans do not exist but to just throw our hands in the air and wait for the next unknown unknown because we believe it beyond us to ever know is futile and of course we now know black swans exist). In this regard it might be worth viewing one blog recently posted mathematical modelling of the S&P500 on a blog (http://bubblehunter.blogspot.com/2008/06/us-equity-markets-are-in-negative.html) as well as various other chartist theories of market wave trending, it might also be worth considering Steve Keens mathematical modelling in his alternative economic models that predict eventual system instability of our current economic system that we may be seeing happening right now.
I will also suggest that there are false dichotomies between engineering and economics if not all sciences and disciplines. Ones scientific if not logical diversion should not be to isolate a discipline of knowledge but to refine knowledge most useful to a particular ends. BrightSpark touched on the humanized aspect of engineering but engineering is nothing but humanized driven, as should be economics. Of course both can have healthy humanizing aspirations and dysfunctional ones also. So let me suggest definitions for economics and engineering that have healthy aspirations: Engineering then might be considering the application of science in satisfying the needs and aspiration of humanity. Economics might also be considered the application of science in satisfying the needs and aspiration of humanity. Engineering to an extent has pursued these ends from the bottom up (micro) in hopefully humanized technological developments; and economics from the top down (macro) in hopefully humanized conceptualization of economic formations that facilitate the well being of humanity with the evolving application of technology.
If we want a system more like the harmony of a rain forest we might do well to consider it functions by many symbiotic relationships that together we call an echo system. To symbiotic economic relations as an aspiration for economic future modelling “OUROBOROS OR The Mechanical Extension of Mankind” by Garet Garrett might be a good read – http://mises.org/books/ouroboros.pdf . Further if control system engineering knowledge has application in better modelling and evaluation of our economies or parts there of, why would we not use it? This may not mean bigger government but rather it might mean a shift of the consciousness and application of government, as well as market activity. Current dominant market interests, of course, are some barrier here to change and risk divergence to their interests.
Still, in hope, our solutions may not be limited by convergence of our economic or engineering technology but by our ability if not desire to comprehend the problem and possibly in this, by our ability, if not desire to self-actualise.
July 13th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
just quickly:
Contrarian said:
“The reason why I prefer markets to be as free as possible is that through competition, it is harder for any single entity to come to such a position of power”
Is this alway the case? I would think in a truely free market, the biggest fish always wins.
Without the government regulating takeovers, competition, etc, China would own most of our resource sector, we’d only have two supermarket chains, we’d only have one airline…
July 13th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Hi Casso!
In Austrian School economic theory, in a truly free market, big fishes cannot remain big fishes indefinitely. The argument is that the free market is not the cause of the rise of big fishes. Instead, it can be argued that it is precisely because of the existence of big fishes that the market should be free to bring them down.
Big fishes are monopolies, which are an infringement of the free market. If excessive monopoly profits exists in the market, you can be sure that it will attract other big fishes into the waters.
In this Mises Institute article, Fear of Monopoly,
Take Microsoft as an example. At one time, it may seem that the rise of Microsoft’s monopoly will spell the end of competition in the PC market. Judge Jackson ordered Microsoft to be broken up in the anti-trust trial (that order was later repealed). Was regulations, laws and court orders the best solution to restore competition in the market?
But today, it looks like Microsoft is facing competitive threat from many fronts. Google, Apple and the open-source movement did a much better job at chipping away Microsoft’s monopoly than any regulations, laws and court orders.
Let’s put the figures into context. The market cap of Rio Tinto at the current market price is AU$57-58 billion. China’s sovereign wealth fund is valued at around US$200-300 billion. So, even with so much currency reserves, gobbling up foreign companies is still prohibitively expensive for the Chinese. By going through the route of buying up companies, the Chinese are subjecting themselves to the rules of business. And suppose that they succeed in doing that, there’s no guarantee that politicians will nationalise these companies away from the Chinese in a mood of populism. It’s clearly not the best use of their money, given that this is a rather risky strategy.
July 13th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
For those who are interested, you may want to take a read at A Politically Incorrect Guide to Antitrust Policy.
There is an Austrian School case for repealing anti-trust laws! That’s hard to swallow, even for myself.
In any case, not everyone will agree with this idea (and by extension, the idea of the free market). The problem with economics is that economic theories and assertions, by its very nature, is not something you can prove the way scientific and mathematical theories can be proven. As Steve Keen said before, economic theory arguments often ends up “convincing no one.”
July 15th, 2008 at 1:10 am
“As Steve Keen said before, economic theory arguments often ends up “convincing no one.”
I agree, please drop all references to Austrian economic theory once and for all!
July 16th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Hello Contrarian, whatif, wycx, Sam et alia.
More good points, thanks for you comments
Here are my thoughts as an engineer on three details, Data, Freedom of trade, and the Current Account.
Contrarian, you said that it was not possible to make an irreversible change, but you did not give a good quantifiable reason or even an example could you elaborate on this?
A word on Economic Data
First we need accurate data on how the machine is performing at any particular time so engineering metrology would need to be applied to gathering relevant and accurate data. I am aware of only one parameter, which, would meet most engineering criteria as being suitable data for use in a control system. That parameter is the quarterly Current Account this is simple well defined and the data, as presented, is low in noise and relatively unaliased.
Lets look at some garbage properties.
Unemployment. Not suitable for engineering analysis.
This is defined differently in different countries. I this country quite frankly this could best be called a joke, if we are trying to be polite. It is complicated by its dependence on another humorous parameter called “participation rate”. The definition of one hours work in a two week period as defining “employed” is a farce. It is also “seasonally adjusted” adding more errors. This definition results in data which is in error, noisy, aliased and biased.
Participation. (Participation Rate). Not suitable for engineering analysis.
Another bad joke, people who have not actively sought work in the two week survey period are not considered to be unemployed but “non participants”. This excludes most people who are not receiving Centrelink payments and who have given up. Centrelink recipients must seek work and send out token job applications to satisfy the requirements for centrelink payments. This definition results in data which is in error, noisy, aliased and biased.
Gross Domestic Product. Not suitable for engineering analysis.
In his book Economia Dr Geoff Davies pointed out that this was defined in the 1940’s as a parameter which would indicate economic CAPABILITY not PERFORMANCE of a town or region. This was needed to determine where factories for the production of war materiel could best be established. This was not intended for the purpose for which it is now used. It is also in error, noisy, aliased and biased. The rate of change of this is now arbitrarily used to indicate prosperity, or lack of the same. A simplistic and to be polite a stupid proposition.
There are many other such poorly or not defined parameters which suck the meaning out of the words that they use. These include “Consumer Price index”, “Economic Growth”, “Terms of Trade”, Elaborately Transformed Manufactureds, Manufactureds, and “Balance of Trade” . They seem to have been devised to confuse most people and create an illusion of omniscience for the people who use them.
A word on FREE TRADE AND MARKETS
Contrarian what do you mean by the terms “Free Trade” and “Free Market”?
This term is really fuzzy and totally useless. It seems to mean “no tariff”, with the word “free” being used to put it in the realm of motherhood and its value beyond dispute. “Free trade agreements” between countries contain lists of restrictions and exceptions.
If we confine this to the bartering of goods in any circumstance we get close to an objective definition. This would also work if money is used with the same currency, as in the US and Australian constitutions. However when credit and currency exchange comes into the transaction the term becomes meaningless.
An example of distortions caused by currency variations is the often quoted lament that people is country X are “so poor that they live on $1 per day”, this in real (as opposed to economic) terms is a nonsense. You simply cannot buy sufficient food to live in Australia for $1 per day for this much food you would die. This illustrates currency exchange rate distortions. These make trade with country X anything but free “trade” or a “market” in a real sense. It actually indicates enslavement of the people of country X by the “market” or just plain theft from this country.
Also people buying houses in Australia (and other countries) have always bought the best house that they could buy with the amount of money which a lender would lend them. The “free trade” laissez fair approach has resulted in people paying way too much for houses. This trade was not free in the real sense of the word. The house buyers are enslaved in this “market” to the Banks – the slavers.
Corporations add their own level of protection (of the corporation) without objection from the various sovereign governments. An example of this was the Zoning applied to DVD players in an attempt to enslave buyers of DVD media this failed not for lack of support by the host countries legal systems but because it was openly flouted by “nerds” and became unenforcable. Defeated by anarchy not law. Check the prices of the same cars in different countries this cannot be explained by costs of transport. Corporations are worse trade enslavers than national governments. There are many examples of this.
The Microsoft and other anti trust actions in the US are seen by economists in macro economic terms the real beneficial effect of these actions has been in the reduction of enslavement of the market. Such enslavement inhibits new developments remember the internet was developed in a truly free environment using US governments funds. This long before it was discovered by Netscape, coveted by Microsoft and taken over by Google.
Tariffs may even reduce market enslavement resulting in freer (in the real sense) trade.
I would like to give the last word on this to the great prophet Adam Smith, in his “invisible of the market” statement ( the “invisible hand” is only mentioned once in “The Wealth of Nations” and not in the conclusion ) he qualifies the concept as follows “. If a foreign country can supply us with a commodity cheaper than we ourselves can make it, better buy it of them with some part of the produce of our own industry, employed in a way in which we have some advantage “. Australia has not been able to pay “with some part of the produce of our own industry” (as indicated by the continuous CAD’s) since the Whitlam government reduced tariffs in 1975 and likewise the US. Now the creditors want their “pound of flesh”. Where is Portia when we need her?
What is meant by “Free Trade” ?
A word on the CAD
The one reliable parameter the quarterly current account includes in its range $0 and can be negative (deficit) and positive (surplus). That a parameter which includes zero in its domain has been increasing exponentially indicates (in engineering terms) a system which is unstable or “running away” and will reach a trigger point and “relax” or crash in economic terms. I think that this is the long overlooked primary cause of the debt problem and the current crash in both Australia and the US. This is not just an indicator of where 30% of credit is coming from (forcibly) it is a vital sign which has been overlooked for too long and for Australia and the US are now in dangerous territory.
Whatif A word on Charting
I mentioned charting as I think is that this approach uses unreliable data to predict what is likely to happen in the near future and is acted on very quickly. If this way yet another bad positive feedback loop introduces instability to the system. This is true particularly if all of the chartists respond in ways which are predictable to other chartists. Thus chartists can cause their own trends. That the stock market is used in this way as one would a casino to gamble is, I consider, destabilising and detrimental.
As you said engineers would look at charts, determine just how reliable the data is, and then create and test hypotheses before attempting to incorporate them into a design.
Cheers
July 16th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Hi Brightspark!
To be more precise, I did not mean all changes are irreversible. I meant that for economic and social ’science’ problems, what happened in the past will result in consequences today that cannot be simply undone/erased. What you can do is to do something today to affect the future to achieve the aims that you want.
An example- look at the oil shock of the early 1970s (due to the Yom Kippur war and the Iranian revolution). Can we undo what happened in the past to return to the ‘original’ condition?
Another example: thanks to the ultra loose monetary policy of Greenspan, American has a gigantic housing bubble that is now deflating. Can we really undo the economic damage and consequences (e.g. credit crisis, sub-prime problems) that Greenspan’s decision has wrought?
Another example: Prior to the First World War, the world (at least the Western World) was under an international gold standard. First World War came and subsequently, nations went off the gold standard into fiat money to fight an expensive world war. That international gold standard in its original form did not return and the world marched incrementally towards the path of fully fluctuating fiat money that we have today.
There are countless other examples, much of which we can observe in our own personal life. If we cannot reverse some of the consequences of what we have done in our personal and family life, how much more can we reverse some of the changes on the economy?
I do not recall using the terms “Free Trade”. I did used “Free Market”.
July 16th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Hi there Steve,
Do the debt to GDP levels still look so alarming if we take out short-term credit card debt and other such debt? I use a credit card and pay on time (just about) every month; my debt presumably adds to the nation’s stock of debt, but since I don’t pay any interest, it’s actually just smoothing my cashflow over a month or so. Yet this sort of zero-interest debt which everyone has would show up in national debt statistics. Maybe a better measure would be the amount of interest owed / the interest rate to get the capitalised value of interest accruing debt.
BrightSpark, I suggest you have a look at the conference Steve is attending: http://www.probabilisticpoliticaleconomy.net
if you want some examples of really successful application of engineering/physics math (chiefly, thermodynamics) to economics.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Credit card debt represents only about 4% of household debt, of which about half is long-term debt so the short-term debt is only a minor component of total debt.
On free trade, there doesn’t seem anything wrong with free trade on its own. The problem is when trade imports are financed with debt or foreign equity. What it has given us is in addition to our local excessive flows of money through what is mainly debt some others that pass through New York and Tokyo and soon (or probably now) Beijing.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Hi BrightSpark,
Thanks for yor comment. Such an argument could be put forward for any market information that the market acts on, for example there was a news report that some undisclosed Chinese interest is going to take a large stake in BHP and the price jumps from $38 to $48 dollar over the next weeks and slides again, one could argue those who bought on the news were gambling and distorted the price. A group of market participants have acted together on this information. Similarly, a very large group of long term investor buys in the belief that the market will always trend up because it has done so for many years – that also is a gamble that distorts prices and as they only buy in one direction may cause the market to over shoot dramatically as the reality of economic conditions cannot support continued price expansion and profits and dividends are lowered.
Charting is just one form of identifying market conditions and is as valid as any information that the market acts on and is likely in the minority with most participants responding to news and emotional triggers. There are underlying economic realities that eventually will dictate a markets behavior and any chartist or other market participant who ignores them will inevitably find themselves on the wrong side of the trade. Short term buyers and sellers also give liquidity to the market, without which, the market again may become more distorted.
I would think engineering control system methodology would be best directed to underlying economic stimuli, if this is possible, particularly those that distort underlying money relationships from fundamental economic activity and so cause money distortions and unsustainable and damaging bubbles, as your original example seemed to considered and for which real people with real needs, that live in real house, and eat real food, suffer as does society. CNBC was promoting a special, to look at a the US 1% “mega rich”, who it lets us know with enthusiasm are worth not just more than the other 99% of the population but the total of the 99% put to together. That is a money distortion with significant social consequences and clearly has a small group with the majority monitory power and was created by a said “free” market.
July 17th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
One idea for introducing negative feedback into market fluctuations would be a levy (say 0.1% minumum, actual level set by the Board of Directors on a monthly basis) on stock trades payable not to government but to the company whose stock is being traded. That way short-term speculators are penalised but long-term stock-holders are rewarded because the extra levy they pay to buy the stock would return to them in the form of dividends from the business’ increased capital. Same kind of principle as a Tobin Tax.
July 17th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
By the way, to an earlier comment regarding bank reserve requirement, it seems it is set by APRA as the following comment in Business Spectator suggests:
[In a speech delivered at an industry conference in Sydney, Australian Prudential Regulation Authority (APRA) manager Wayne Byers said the system could sustain losses of $24 billion without breaching the 8 per cent minimal capital requirement.
"We consider Australian bank capital to be quite sound, but remain vigilant for any emerging signs of weakness," Mr Byers told the conference.]
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Big-Four-safe-from-crunch-APRA-FYBHG?OpenDocument
July 17th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Hi James Haughton,
Hi James Haughton,
Such a levy, I would think, would cause the market to further over shoot with a change in economic conditions, creating greater bubbles and losses eventually, with long term investors buoyed with false confidence of an apparent stable up trend and deceived by false market stability. The recent Shanghai bubble might be an example of what happens when investor are encouraged to invest in one direction.
July 17th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Hi whatif!
I think there is a difference between capital requirement and reserve requirement.
I find this article article very helpful in explaining the difference between the two. Note: If you are not from the Austrian School, ignore its theory about inflation. Instead, focus on the section where it shows the bank balance sheet.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Hi Contrarian,
Thanks for the reference. I thought it interesting that both capital requirement and reserve requirement can play a part in credit creation. As the article notes regarding capital reserve requirements; “Our example contains another important feature of the government-controlled money system. Government regulation requires banks to keep a certain ratio between risky assets (loans and bonds) and equity capital. In our example, the capital ratio is 8%.[6] Economically speaking, the capital requirement implies a multiplier: with a given US dollar of equity capital, banks can create US$12.5 of credit.”
I may be way off mark here, but another point to I wonder to, is the potential Australian asset bubbles having been influenced by international finance and capital that come into both real-estate, stock, capital and resource markets. I’ve read that Japan as example has apparently been churning out 0% interest loans to the carry over trade in the money markets since the early 90’s and of course the US now has very low rates. How has all that money out of Japan, that some call ‘Funny Money’, influenced prices in our local market and distorted the perception of long term apparent asset price stability and so the illusion of limited risk and with that artificially low interest rates (ie interest rates could be set lower because the risk rate of default is lowered by a constant up trending market supported by ‘Funny Money’). This in turn would encourage further local speculation with no apparent risk and low interest debt borrowing perpetuating an upward spiral.
July 19th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
A large proportion of our foreign debt would be Japanese, if not directly then through hedge funds borrowing Yen and converting to Australian dollars so they haven’t helped. Seeing 30% of new credit comes from overseas it is a significant amount. It also is one of those nasty positive feedback cases. Inflow of foreign capital causes our dollar to rise making ownership of Australian dollars look attractive in addition to our high interest rates.
History of course tells us that this doesn’t last forever, so eventually our currency collapses so as well as loss on investments there is foreign exchange losses.
If we had wanted to stop the inflow there were options available. Higher interest rates to reduce borrowing and offsetting any inflow of foreign capital by building foreign capital reserves. Then we wouldn’t have been able to afford all those large screen TVs and expensive imported cars. Very unpopular but better in the long term.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Steve – I very much look forward to the next issue of your podcast. Credit growth and the australian housing market are beginning to roll over, just as you predicted.
July 21st, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Hello Ken and others.
Ken
I think that there are other nasty positive feedback mechanisms, for example the very increase in debt and sale of assets increases the interest and dividend payments which must be made these directly add the CAD.
Also it is not just wide screen TV’s there is an increasing volume of food and other manufactured goods (ETMs in funny speak)coming in at ridiculously low prices. We have also run down our skill and education base to the extent that we have insufficient skilled people to maintain private and public infrastructure. When you consider that a skilled worker on $30 per week in China can afford a material lifestyle equivalent to a skilled Australian worker on $800 per week you get some idea of the joke that is referred to as “free trade”.
At the time of his “banana republic” statement Paul Keating claimed that interest rate increases would turn around the current account.
Since then its “don’t mention the CAD”.
One other point, can we build up foreign capital reserves without running a CAS? I do not think so. Any foreign capital would need to to borrowed.
By permitting increases in credit supply through “securitisation” the governments over the last 35 years have created this enormous problem “bubble”. They have inflated the cost of housing and passed the burden for paying interest on foreign debt onto home buyers. And now, because the home buyers cannot afford to pay any more (here and in the US) the fun begins!