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	<title>Comments on: Household Debt: US vs Australia</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2007/03/15/household-debt-us-vs-australia/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2007/03/15/household-debt-us-vs-australia/</link>
	<description>Analysing the Global Debt Bubble</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 04:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: jswinstead</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2007/03/15/household-debt-us-vs-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>jswinstead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=7#comment-37</guid>
		<description>Steve,
Thanks. I will await with interest for your comments.
In such a doomsday scenario it would be nice to know where to have your money?
Julian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,<br />
Thanks. I will await with interest for your comments.<br />
In such a doomsday scenario it would be nice to know where to have your money?<br />
Julian.</p>
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		<title>By: cray</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2007/03/15/household-debt-us-vs-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>cray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 04:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=7#comment-36</guid>
		<description>Answer my own question:
Just looked at the ABS data for finance by type

% of fixed loans

Nov-2001	5.1
Nov-2002	6.9
Nov-2003	15.2
Nov-2004	11.6
Nov-2005	14.7
Nov-2006	21.3
Jan-2007	20.5

So for the past 12 months 20% of all loans written have been fixed - so the rate rises have not 'bitten home' yet for these people.

Also of interest the fixed rate loans are larger than average by about 5% (fixed avg $232k, all average $223k).

may have some effect on the timing of the 'crunch'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Answer my own question:<br />
Just looked at the ABS data for finance by type</p>
<p>% of fixed loans</p>
<p>Nov-2001	5.1<br />
Nov-2002	6.9<br />
Nov-2003	15.2<br />
Nov-2004	11.6<br />
Nov-2005	14.7<br />
Nov-2006	21.3<br />
Jan-2007	20.5</p>
<p>So for the past 12 months 20% of all loans written have been fixed - so the rate rises have not &#8216;bitten home&#8217; yet for these people.</p>
<p>Also of interest the fixed rate loans are larger than average by about 5% (fixed avg $232k, all average $223k).</p>
<p>may have some effect on the timing of the &#8216;crunch&#8217;.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: cray</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2007/03/15/household-debt-us-vs-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>cray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 03:37:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=7#comment-35</guid>
		<description>Steve,
just read an item on itulip about the looming ARMS resetting, seems the US will be in trouble in 12 &#38; 48 months as low rate loans are reset to the current variable rate.

Does Australia have a similar problem in the future as fixed rate and 'honeymoon' loan rates are cranked up to the variable after 12-36 months.

Is there any data on the number and timing of these types of products in Australia, and hence when they may come up for renewal.

This could provide a lag in the repayment of the debt bubble and cause a 'cover up' of the extent of loan repayment pain as current rate rises do not effect all borrowers yet but will in the future.

Chris</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,<br />
just read an item on itulip about the looming ARMS resetting, seems the US will be in trouble in 12 &amp; 48 months as low rate loans are reset to the current variable rate.</p>
<p>Does Australia have a similar problem in the future as fixed rate and &#8216;honeymoon&#8217; loan rates are cranked up to the variable after 12-36 months.</p>
<p>Is there any data on the number and timing of these types of products in Australia, and hence when they may come up for renewal.</p>
<p>This could provide a lag in the repayment of the debt bubble and cause a &#8216;cover up&#8217; of the extent of loan repayment pain as current rate rises do not effect all borrowers yet but will in the future.</p>
<p>Chris</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Keen</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2007/03/15/household-debt-us-vs-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Keen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2007 02:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=7#comment-34</guid>
		<description>I will have to leave an answer to that for a future Debtwatch js; I'd like to answer, but pressures of work are making it impossible to give a detailed answer.

A half-baked one would be less than useful: not only would I leave lots of detail out, but it could be used later to build a "straw-man" version of my views. I'm experienced enough in the world of academic and political debate to know that it would be unwise of me to supply the straw.

So if you can wait 2-3 months, I'll give a detailed answer in a Debtwatch report. My next one (April) will focus on the astounding reality--which I only just realised myself after downloading the US data--that our rate of growth of mortgage debt has been twice theirs. So much for the benefits of a superior regulatory regime...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will have to leave an answer to that for a future Debtwatch js; I&#8217;d like to answer, but pressures of work are making it impossible to give a detailed answer.</p>
<p>A half-baked one would be less than useful: not only would I leave lots of detail out, but it could be used later to build a &#8220;straw-man&#8221; version of my views. I&#8217;m experienced enough in the world of academic and political debate to know that it would be unwise of me to supply the straw.</p>
<p>So if you can wait 2-3 months, I&#8217;ll give a detailed answer in a Debtwatch report. My next one (April) will focus on the astounding reality&#8211;which I only just realised myself after downloading the US data&#8211;that our rate of growth of mortgage debt has been twice theirs. So much for the benefits of a superior regulatory regime&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: jswinstead</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2007/03/15/household-debt-us-vs-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>jswinstead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2007 01:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=7#comment-33</guid>
		<description>Steve, your comments on what would happen in a total meltdown would be most interesting?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, your comments on what would happen in a total meltdown would be most interesting?</p>
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		<title>By: cray</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2007/03/15/household-debt-us-vs-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>cray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=7#comment-32</guid>
		<description>I agree with aspro that the big banks have much greater exposure to credit risk than is promoted in the media.

One area that has me stumped is bank valuations.  I always thought that bank val's were more conservative than RE val's - often by 20-30%.  'A bank will not loan more than what they think they could sell the property for'.  That can not be so anymore.  If RE values are rising, bank val's must be rising at the same rate to allow ppl to finance their homes.

That would mean that bank valuations are as inflated as all other property prices and therfore subject to possible correction - that would expose banks to more risk than their books may suggest.

I am not sure how mortgage insurance works - it may cover the bank for loss during a forced sale - but is there a limit and could banks be seen as irresponsible if they increase valuations simply to allow credit to be provided.

Any comments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with aspro that the big banks have much greater exposure to credit risk than is promoted in the media.</p>
<p>One area that has me stumped is bank valuations.  I always thought that bank val&#8217;s were more conservative than RE val&#8217;s - often by 20-30%.  &#8216;A bank will not loan more than what they think they could sell the property for&#8217;.  That can not be so anymore.  If RE values are rising, bank val&#8217;s must be rising at the same rate to allow ppl to finance their homes.</p>
<p>That would mean that bank valuations are as inflated as all other property prices and therfore subject to possible correction - that would expose banks to more risk than their books may suggest.</p>
<p>I am not sure how mortgage insurance works - it may cover the bank for loss during a forced sale - but is there a limit and could banks be seen as irresponsible if they increase valuations simply to allow credit to be provided.</p>
<p>Any comments?</p>
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		<title>By: foundation</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2007/03/15/household-debt-us-vs-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>foundation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=7#comment-31</guid>
		<description>I think Alistair Jeffery (Bluestone CEO) was saying something more to the effect that banks were inexperienced in lo-doc and should leave it to specialised lendersâ€¦ such as Bluestone:

â€œBluestone Mortgages, a provider of non-conforming mortgages, told the Australian that the company had been in discussions with some banks about providing arrears-management services. Bluestone chief executive Alistair Jeffery said "there is a bus smash waiting to happen in terms of the pricing of the risk that some lenders are taking on and the lack of preparedness to handle the arrears."
http://www.mortgagemaestro.com.au/news/140/0

From yesterday:

â€œAlistair Jeffery, chief executive of lender Bluestone, said arrears had risen with higher interest rates, but remained "well within expectations".
"No markets are immune to stresses such as this and we would all be deluding ourselves if we thought that Australia was a haven where these sorts of stresses can't bite," Mr Jeffery said.â€
http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/risky-loans-hurt-but-australia-still-better-off-than-us/2007/03/14/1173722558475.html

Here are my questions â€“ who is going to be left naked when the tide goes out? Have the non-bank lenders packaged and sold all or just some of their loans, and to whom?  What about the banks? Is my superannuation fund going to take a hit? Are the investors who purchase mortgage backed securities protected by buy-back provisions similar to those that have bankrupted so many mortgage originators in the US?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Alistair Jeffery (Bluestone CEO) was saying something more to the effect that banks were inexperienced in lo-doc and should leave it to specialised lendersâ€¦ such as Bluestone:</p>
<p>â€œBluestone Mortgages, a provider of non-conforming mortgages, told the Australian that the company had been in discussions with some banks about providing arrears-management services. Bluestone chief executive Alistair Jeffery said &#8220;there is a bus smash waiting to happen in terms of the pricing of the risk that some lenders are taking on and the lack of preparedness to handle the arrears.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.mortgagemaestro.com.au/news/140/0" rel="nofollow">http://www.mortgagemaestro.com.au/news/140/0</a></p>
<p>From yesterday:</p>
<p>â€œAlistair Jeffery, chief executive of lender Bluestone, said arrears had risen with higher interest rates, but remained &#8220;well within expectations&#8221;.<br />
&#8220;No markets are immune to stresses such as this and we would all be deluding ourselves if we thought that Australia was a haven where these sorts of stresses can&#8217;t bite,&#8221; Mr Jeffery said.â€<br />
<a href="http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/risky-loans-hurt-but-australia-still-better-off-than-us/2007/03/14/1173722558475.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/risky-loans-hurt-but-australia-still-better-off-than-us/2007/03/14/1173722558475.html</a></p>
<p>Here are my questions â€“ who is going to be left naked when the tide goes out? Have the non-bank lenders packaged and sold all or just some of their loans, and to whom?  What about the banks? Is my superannuation fund going to take a hit? Are the investors who purchase mortgage backed securities protected by buy-back provisions similar to those that have bankrupted so many mortgage originators in the US?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Keen</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2007/03/15/household-debt-us-vs-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Keen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=7#comment-30</guid>
		<description>I'll get around to a full answer tomorrow, because today I have a court appearance and a TV interview to do. But focusing on the last half of your question, if a debt-deflation does break out then the best safe haven is long term government bonds--which rise in value if, as would happen during a crisis, interest rates are cut.

Apart from that, in one sense, all other bets are off. There is such an accumulated degree of dislocation in world financial markets now that predicting any other consequence is very difficult. Japan 1990-2005 gives the best recent historical perspective we have, but the many differences between Australia and the US's situations and Japan's then complicate the picture enormously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll get around to a full answer tomorrow, because today I have a court appearance and a TV interview to do. But focusing on the last half of your question, if a debt-deflation does break out then the best safe haven is long term government bonds&#8211;which rise in value if, as would happen during a crisis, interest rates are cut.</p>
<p>Apart from that, in one sense, all other bets are off. There is such an accumulated degree of dislocation in world financial markets now that predicting any other consequence is very difficult. Japan 1990-2005 gives the best recent historical perspective we have, but the many differences between Australia and the US&#8217;s situations and Japan&#8217;s then complicate the picture enormously.</p>
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		<title>By: jswinstead</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2007/03/15/household-debt-us-vs-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>jswinstead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=7#comment-29</guid>
		<description>Steve, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on what would be the actual result of a major crisis in the world financial system. IE how would Australian banks fare; what would be relatively safe havens; etc. Would bank bills be safe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on what would be the actual result of a major crisis in the world financial system. IE how would Australian banks fare; what would be relatively safe havens; etc. Would bank bills be safe.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Keen</title>
		<link>http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2007/03/15/household-debt-us-vs-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Keen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/?p=7#comment-28</guid>
		<description>I have to agree that it's jaw-dropping! Mine dented the keyboard too when I first generated the graph. But it's real: the data in both instances come from the respective country's central banks.

So our bubble has grown at, to hazard a guess, twice the rate of the USA's over the last fifteen years. Whatever less informed commentators might want to argue about our higher quality of regulation, this phenomenon has clearly crept under their radar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree that it&#8217;s jaw-dropping! Mine dented the keyboard too when I first generated the graph. But it&#8217;s real: the data in both instances come from the respective country&#8217;s central banks.</p>
<p>So our bubble has grown at, to hazard a guess, twice the rate of the USA&#8217;s over the last fifteen years. Whatever less informed commentators might want to argue about our higher quality of regulation, this phenomenon has clearly crept under their radar.</p>
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